View Full Version : Right or Wrong, Why "BLM" Bugs Many People
Standing Wolf
07-14-2016, 05:15 PM
Time for a bit of cultural show and tell. We are constantly being encouraged to look to and understand the perspectives of the Black and other minority communities, and to take their experiences and perceptions into account at all times. It matters not what a flag, a place name, etc., means to the great majority of citizens - we are expected to edit, curb, adjust, redact and alter pretty much everything so as not to offend or make any person of color uncomfortable in any way. We are to trust in the value and validity of those communities' experiences and beliefs about the world, even if they contradict or call for the devaluing or dismissal of our own. (It's like in the movies, where you know that the elderly Black person in any group of characters is going to be the wise one, especially if he is played by Morgan Freeman.)
Right or wrong, truth or illusion, fact or prejudice, what are some of the things that many White people believe they have been taught, in the course of their lives, about Black people that makes the very phrase "Black Lives Matter" so irritating?
I'm not referring to White racists, White racial supremacists - any of that sort. I'm referring to intelligent, fair-minded individuals of good will who just bristle at the sound of "Black Lives Matter" because it seems to reinforce or confirm some attitude that they perceive in the Black community with which they have a problem.
I promise to share my own thoughts on the matter soon - I'm just pressed for time today, and I did want to get some input from others on the topic. Whoever you are, and whatever you have to say about the subject, please keep it civil. I'm looking for honesty from those who can identify with the sentiment expressed; if you have a problem with people expressing themselves honestly in a way that offends you, feel free to go read and participate in another thread.
Cigar
07-14-2016, 05:20 PM
My Honest Opinion: Some People, don't see others as Humans ... period.
Black or White, there are many who simply don't see their fellow Man as Human.
As far as the Phrase, Black Lives Matters, only bothers people who have some type of deep hidden anger within.
Standing Wolf
07-14-2016, 05:41 PM
My Honest Opinion: Some People, don't see others as Humans ... period.
Black or White, there are many who simply don't see their fellow Man as Human.
As far as the Phrase, Black Lives Matters, only bothers people who have some type of deep hidden anger within.
Thank you for an honest, serious response. As I said before, I don't have a lot of time to devote to this right now, but I will comment briefly on your post before I take off.
One perception, common - I believe so, anyway - among many White people is that all Black people care about is "coming out ahead", in some way, as a race...as though it were some sort of game, in which the color of the participants' skin is all that is being considered. This belief is reinforced when Black criminals - people who were genuinely endangering police or others, and whose shooting was entirely justified by any reasonable standard - are extolled as martyrs...their names and numbers included in the rolls of those said to have been "murdered by the police". The perception is that a good number of Black people are not very discriminating in their outrage. I don't agree that this belief is proof of any "deep hidden anger" - I think it's just that a lot of us hear "BLM" and, because of certain things we have seen and heard over the years, we seem to hear it prefaced with "Only".
instead of attributing these *perceptions* to some amorphous group of white people, why don't you take ownership of what you clearly believe?
Common
07-14-2016, 06:03 PM
My Honest Opinion: Some People, don't see others as Humans ... period.
Black or White, there are many who simply don't see their fellow Man as Human.
As far as the Phrase, Black Lives Matters, only bothers people who have some type of deep hidden anger within.
Your full of shit, white people have every right to be offended over a fuckin group that tells them we dont care if you die.
They proved that when they get mad when someone says ALL LIVES MATTER. BLM is a racist piece of shit group and nothing more
Its does far more to create more hate than it ever will love because its a HATE group
Safety
07-14-2016, 06:13 PM
Remove the "silent" only you are placing in front of BLM.
Chris
07-14-2016, 06:17 PM
Some of it is that white culture is disappearing.
Cigar
07-14-2016, 06:35 PM
Your full of $#@!, white people have every right to be offended over a $#@!in group that tells them we dont care if you die.
They proved that when they get mad when someone says ALL LIVES MATTER. BLM is a racist piece of $#@! group and nothing more
Its does far more to create more hate than it ever will love because its a HATE group
Afraid of a bunch of Women ... :laugh:
If black lives matter, why are so many blacks murdering other blacks?
Common
07-14-2016, 06:40 PM
Afraid of a bunch of Women ... :laugh:
Im more afraid of women than I am of you. BLM is a racist organization, politically created by democrats for Political Expediency. White people do not have to say they like a racist piece of shit organization
Mark III
07-14-2016, 06:41 PM
What BLM actually means is "black lives matter too"
the racists see it as "black lives matter more"
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 06:41 PM
If I said "I like Apples", some people here would hear "I hate Oranges".
Common
07-14-2016, 06:41 PM
If black lives matter, why are so many blacks murdering other blacks?
That doesnt matter thousands of blacks die at the hands of blacks but there is a DEATHLY SILENCE from BLM and liberals a bout that. Thousands die literally many kids and thats just fine. Its all bullshit everyone knows it.
Chris
07-14-2016, 06:46 PM
If I said "I like Apples", some people here would hear "I hate Oranges".
Why do you hate oranges?
Mark III
07-14-2016, 06:46 PM
That doesnt matter thousands of blacks die at the hands of blacks but there is a DEATHLY SILENCE from BLM and liberals a bout that. Thousands die literally many kids and thats just fine. Its all bull$#@! everyone knows it.
Black crime and police misconduct are two separate issues. Why can't idiots understand that?
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 06:51 PM
Why do you hate oranges?
They think they're sooo special.
;)
Safety
07-14-2016, 06:54 PM
That doesnt matter thousands of blacks die at the hands of blacks but there is a DEATHLY SILENCE from BLM and liberals a bout that. Thousands die literally many kids and thats just fine. Its all bullshit everyone knows it.
How many of those blacks are paid public servants tasked to enforce the law?
False equivalency is still false.
FindersKeepers
07-14-2016, 06:55 PM
Time for a bit of cultural show and tell. We are constantly being encouraged to look to and understand the perspectives of the Black and other minority communities, and to take their experiences and perceptions into account at all times. It matters not what a flag, a place name, etc., means to the great majority of citizens - we are expected to edit, curb, adjust, redact and alter pretty much everything so as not to offend or make any person of color uncomfortable in any way. We are to trust in the value and validity of those communities' experiences and beliefs about the world, even if they contradict or call for the devaluing or dismissal of our own. (It's like in the movies, where you know that the elderly Black person in any group of characters is going to be the wise one, especially if he is played by Morgan Freeman.)
Right or wrong, truth or illusion, fact or prejudice, what are some of the things that many White people believe they have been taught, in the course of their lives, about Black people that makes the very phrase "Black Lives Matter" so irritating?
I'm not referring to White racists, White racial supremacists - any of that sort. I'm referring to intelligent, fair-minded individuals of good will who just bristle at the sound of "Black Lives Matter" because it seems to reinforce or confirm some attitude that they perceive in the Black community with which they have a problem.
I promise to share my own thoughts on the matter soon - I'm just pressed for time today, and I did want to get some input from others on the topic. Whoever you are, and whatever you have to say about the subject, please keep it civil. I'm looking for honesty from those who can identify with the sentiment expressed; if you have a problem with people expressing themselves honestly in a way that offends you, feel free to go read and participate in another thread.
As always, you've done an amazing job of putting words and thoughts to an issue that is so complex.
It was never the term, "Black Lives Matter" that bothered me, so much as the harsh reaction from members of that group when Bernie Sanders said, "All Lives Matter."
I cannot help but think that the BLM movement isn't just about equality, but rather about punishing the white race in general, and police officers, specifically.
It feels like someone's out for blood. If feels like someone's bent on revenge.
I don't feel a lot of love coming from BLM.
I, who as a child, lived side-by-side with African, Saudi, Japanese, and Jewish children, along with others from many nations, feel as though something sinister wants to "take me down a notch." I never felt anything similar from the children I lived with -- and still correspond with -- to what I feel emanating from BLM.
I feel divisiveness. I feel spite. I don't feel love. I don't feel Dr. King's presence in their midst.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:02 PM
instead of attributing these *perceptions* to some amorphous group of white people, why don't you take ownership of what you clearly believe?
In the hope you'd actually contribute something? :laugh:
FindersKeepers
07-14-2016, 07:02 PM
How many of those blacks are paid public servants tasked to enforce the law?
False equivalency is still false.
Probably none, so you do have a point.
However, we've established that blacks do not die at an increased rate at the hands of those "paid public servants" than do whites. Yet, we don't see a White Lives Matter movement. And, I doubt we ever will.
We also know that blacks face more abuse, not lethal, just physical and verbal abuse, from officers, so we know there IS an issue. Just not the one BLM is hyping.
So, I have to ask -- what is the point?
What is the plan?
What is it they want, and will they be happy if they get it?
In short -- what has to happen for this to go away?
Chris
07-14-2016, 07:05 PM
Some BLM are disruptive…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IawEMxTroBk
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:09 PM
That dude Milo is as big a douche as many of the BLM people.
It's like a douche on douche fest...
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:11 PM
Time for a bit of cultural show and tell. We are constantly being encouraged to look to and understand the perspectives of the Black and other minority communities, and to take their experiences and perceptions into account at all times. It matters not what a flag, a place name, etc., means to the great majority of citizens - we are expected to edit, curb, adjust, redact and alter pretty much everything so as not to offend or make any person of color uncomfortable in any way. We are to trust in the value and validity of those communities' experiences and beliefs about the world, even if they contradict or call for the devaluing or dismissal of our own. (It's like in the movies, where you know that the elderly Black person in any group of characters is going to be the wise one, especially if he is played by Morgan Freeman.)
Right or wrong, truth or illusion, fact or prejudice, what are some of the things that many White people believe they have been taught, in the course of their lives, about Black people that makes the very phrase "Black Lives Matter" so irritating?
I'm not referring to White racists, White racial supremacists - any of that sort. I'm referring to intelligent, fair-minded individuals of good will who just bristle at the sound of "Black Lives Matter" because it seems to reinforce or confirm some attitude that they perceive in the Black community with which they have a problem.
I promise to share my own thoughts on the matter soon - I'm just pressed for time today, and I did want to get some input from others on the topic. Whoever you are, and whatever you have to say about the subject, please keep it civil. I'm looking for honesty from those who can identify with the sentiment expressed; if you have a problem with people expressing themselves honestly in a way that offends you, feel free to go read and participate in another thread.
This (the bold) is something I do find troubling. The perceptions of the "black community" are ipso facto valid even when they are demonstrably wrong, absurd or downright pathological. Indulging the paranoid delusions of black people makes white progressives feel great about themselves but it's not helping anyone.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:12 PM
That dude Milo is as big a douche as many of the BLM people.
It's like a douche on douche fest...
Did he say anything you disagree with? Ever?
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:14 PM
Did he say anything you disagree with? Ever?
Milo? Yes.
Or did you mean the guy from BLM? Then yes again.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:17 PM
Milo? Yes.
Or did you mean the guy from BLM? Then yes again.
lol I meant Milo but I doubt you can elaborate on either in one. :laugh:
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:19 PM
lol I meant Milo but I doubt you can elaborate on either in one. :laugh:
OK...
Ravens Fan
07-14-2016, 07:19 PM
Time for a bit of cultural show and tell. We are constantly being encouraged to look to and understand the perspectives of the Black and other minority communities, and to take their experiences and perceptions into account at all times. It matters not what a flag, a place name, etc., means to the great majority of citizens - we are expected to edit, curb, adjust, redact and alter pretty much everything so as not to offend or make any person of color uncomfortable in any way. We are to trust in the value and validity of those communities' experiences and beliefs about the world, even if they contradict or call for the devaluing or dismissal of our own. (It's like in the movies, where you know that the elderly Black person in any group of characters is going to be the wise one, especially if he is played by Morgan Freeman.)
Right or wrong, truth or illusion, fact or prejudice, what are some of the things that many White people believe they have been taught, in the course of their lives, about Black people that makes the very phrase "Black Lives Matter" so irritating?
I'm not referring to White racists, White racial supremacists - any of that sort. I'm referring to intelligent, fair-minded individuals of good will who just bristle at the sound of "Black Lives Matter" because it seems to reinforce or confirm some attitude that they perceive in the Black community with which they have a problem.
I promise to share my own thoughts on the matter soon - I'm just pressed for time today, and I did want to get some input from others on the topic. Whoever you are, and whatever you have to say about the subject, please keep it civil. I'm looking for honesty from those who can identify with the sentiment expressed; if you have a problem with people expressing themselves honestly in a way that offends you, feel free to go read and participate in another thread.
I have a few problems with Black Lives Matters, starting with the name. "Black Lives Matter" doesn't bother me at all, I agree that they do. But whoever came up with the name, had to know the reaction it would get. When trying to bring people into your cause, it is usually best not to alienate them.
Their self-defined purpose is to stop the senseless killing of blacks by police. That is an honorable cause, IMO. But the stats have shown that whites are being killed too, and at a very similar rate. This isn't a racial problem so much as a societal one. They would be better served to work towards a solution to any innocent lives being taken by the police.
They started out by using Michael Brown as well as others where there was no clear cut case of police brutality. Don't get me wrong, I know there are many good examples that they could have used, but they didn't. They also are trying to paint all cops as bad apples, that is just not the case.
My other issue is that yes, black lives do matter, but is it only the ones shot by white cops? What about the ones killed in the streets by civilians? What about the ones that are overdosing everyday? What about the lack of parenting (in both white and black families) that is creating a generation that respects no-one, especially those with authority?
I mean, we can sit here all day and argue about racist cops and how much they hate black people, or we can look at the bigger picture and try to come up with solutions. It has to be done in as inclusive a way as possible too, because the problem transcends race and class, and will take people of all stripes to be able to fix it.
Chris
07-14-2016, 07:23 PM
That dude Milo is as big a douche as many of the BLM people.
It's like a douche on douche fest...
But do you disagree with what his message is?
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:24 PM
OK...
Yep. Thanks for the confirmation. That said, please do better.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:26 PM
I have a few problems with Black Lives Matters, starting with the name. "Black Lives Matter" doesn't bother me at all, I agree that they do. But whoever came up with the name, had to know the reaction it would get. When trying to bring people into your cause, it is usually best not to alienate them.
Their self-defined purpose is to stop the senseless killing of blacks by police. That is an honorable cause, IMO. But the stats have shown that whites are being killed too, and at a very similar rate. This isn't a racial problem so much as a societal one. They would be better served to work towards a solution to any innocent lives being taken by the police.
They started out by using Michael Brown as well as others where there was no clear cut case of police brutality. Don't get me wrong, I know there are many good examples that they could have used, but they didn't. They also are trying to paint all cops as bad apples, that is just not the case.
My other issue is that yes, black lives do matter, but is it only the ones shot by white cops? What about the ones killed in the streets by civilians? What about the ones that are overdosing everyday? What about the lack of parenting (in both white and black families) that is creating a generation that respects no-one, especially those with authority?
I mean, we can sit here all day and argue about racist cops and how much they hate black people, or we can look at the bigger picture and try to come up with solutions. It has to be done in as inclusive a way as possible too, because the problem transcends race and class, and will take people of all stripes to be able to fix it.
BLM started after Travon Martin I think.
The BLM is about more than just police brutality.
I don't know that they thought the name would be divisive. I don't see it that way, but it's clear some do.
I certainly don't agree with everything they do and I don't love their tactics. Being inclusive of others would be great, but I think what they are doing is focusing on their issue. Many groups have a narrow focus.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:27 PM
Yep. Thanks for the confirmation. That said, please do better.
I would have an actual discussion with you, but you clearly don't want that.
Cheers.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:31 PM
I have a few problems with Black Lives Matters, starting with the name. "Black Lives Matter" doesn't bother me at all, I agree that they do. But whoever came up with the name, had to know the reaction it would get. When trying to bring people into your cause, it is usually best not to alienate them.
Their self-defined purpose is to stop the senseless killing of blacks by police. That is an honorable cause, IMO. But the stats have shown that whites are being killed too, and at a very similar rate. This isn't a racial problem so much as a societal one. They would be better served to work towards a solution to any innocent lives being taken by the police.
They started out by using Michael Brown as well as others where there was no clear cut case of police brutality. Don't get me wrong, I know there are many good examples that they could have used, but they didn't. They also are trying to paint all cops as bad apples, that is just not the case.
My other issue is that yes, black lives do matter, but is it only the ones shot by white cops? What about the ones killed in the streets by civilians? What about the ones that are overdosing everyday? What about the lack of parenting (in both white and black families) that is creating a generation that respects no-one, especially those with authority?
I mean, we can sit here all day and argue about racist cops and how much they hate black people, or we can look at the bigger picture and try to come up with solutions. It has to be done in as inclusive a way as possible too, because the problem transcends race and class, and will take people of all stripes to be able to fix it.
You touch on what I think is the primary problem here at least with regard to possible solutions. It doesn't appear that many blacks want any sort of dialogue. This is a monologue and the gist is that America is racist and we're not going to take it anymore. Now when that alienates whites they're described as "racist". The discussion ends before it starts and black men continue to be incarcerated, killed (usually by each other) and unemployed at a far higher rate than any other group.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:34 PM
I would have an actual discussion with you, but you clearly don't want that.
Cheers.
Oh, but I do and I think this is just another way you have of just not saying anything.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:38 PM
Oh, but I do and I think this is just another way you have of just not saying anything.
I didn't insult you and you did right from the get go...so I'm not really interested in your games.
Have a nice night.
Mark III
07-14-2016, 07:40 PM
BLM regularly organizes protests around the deaths of black people in killings by law enforcement officers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_th e_United_States), and broader issues of racial profiling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling), police brutality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_in_the_United_States), and racial inequality in the United States criminal justice system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system) .
The problem is that some of you people want BLM to take up the issues that YOU want them to. But they want to take up the issues that THEY want to. It's a bitch.
Chris
07-14-2016, 07:43 PM
BLM regularly organizes protests around the deaths of black people in killings by law enforcement officers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_th e_United_States), and broader issues of racial profiling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_profiling), police brutality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_in_the_United_States), and racial inequality in the United States criminal justice system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system) .
The problem is that some of you people want BLM to take up the issues that YOU want them to. But they want to take up the issues that THEY want to. It's a bitch.
Aside from antagonistic, disruptive tactics, I think they should pursue their grassroots objectives just as I did the Tea Parties and OWS.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:46 PM
I didn't insult you and you did right from the get go...so I'm not really interested in your games.
Have a nice night.
I didn't insult you either. We both know you clam up real fast when asked to elaborate. No worries. My expectations are low.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:47 PM
Aside from antagonist disruptive tactics, I think they should pursue their grassroots objectives just as I did the Tea Parties and OWS.
I think they should clarify their message and thin it of the more radical types. The people who say derogatory things about police and who call for violence don't help them.
That was the problem with OWS. They didn't have a clear message, clear goals and a realistic approach.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 07:48 PM
I didn't insult you either. We both know you clam up real fast when asked to elaborate. No worries. My expectations are low.
You did insult me, just as you did in the post I'm responding to.
Again, have a good evening.
pjohns
07-14-2016, 07:56 PM
Right or wrong, truth or illusion, fact or prejudice, what are some of the things that many White people believe they have been taught, in the course of their lives, about Black people that makes the very phrase "Black Lives Matter" so irritating?
The name is very "irritating" because it seems to imply that only black matter; whereas, in fact, all lives matter.
Moreover, it is based upon a lie: i.e. the fabrication that Michael Brown shouted, "Hands up, don't shoot!" before being shot in Ferguson, Missouri, in August of 2014.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:57 PM
You did insult me, just as you did in the post I'm responding to.
Again, have a good evening.
I did? You do clam up and you're clamming up now. I'll keep trying though. You're probably afraid of engaging on a substantial level but t gets easier the more you do it.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 07:59 PM
The name is very "irritating" because it seems to imply that only black matter; whereas, in fact, all lives matter.
Moreover, it is based upon a lie: i.e. the fabrication that Michael Brown shouted, "Hands up, don't shoot!" before being shot in Ferguson, Missouri, in August of 2014.
If the name is irritating it's because it points to a non-existent "epidemic" of police violence against black men.
Ravens Fan
07-14-2016, 08:04 PM
BLM started after Travon Martin I think.
They did, I had forgotten that. The Martin case was not exactly a great place to start either, IMO. It was too controversial as to who was to blame. They should have used more of a clear-cut case, it would've given them much more credibility had they gone in that direction, rather than some of the cases they made the most noise about.
The BLM is about more than just police brutality.
Like what? I have not heard anything but about police killings from them.
I don't know that they thought the name would be divisive. I don't see it that way, but it's clear some do.
That should have been obvious. Look at the way some react to names like BET, or Black History Month. For some it is racism, for others, a genuine wish to be inclusive rather than divisive. It is what it is, and should have been better thought out, IMO.
I certainly don't agree with everything they do and I don't love their tactics. Being inclusive of others would be great, but I think what they are doing is focusing on their issue. Many groups have a narrow focus.
That is true. I just feel that they are attacking just one symptom, when the illness is much bigger than that. I don't think they will get vary far, nor bring any real change the way they are doing it.
Safety
07-14-2016, 08:10 PM
Probably none, so you do have a point.
However, we've established that blacks do not die at an increased rate at the hands of those "paid public servants" than do whites. Yet, we don't see a White Lives Matter movement. And, I doubt we ever will.
We also know that blacks face more abuse, not lethal, just physical and verbal abuse, from officers, so we know there IS an issue. Just not the one BLM is hyping.
So, I have to ask -- what is the point?
What is the plan?
What is it they want, and will they be happy if they get it?
In short -- what has to happen for this to go away?
I don't think it has been established, for just like other subject areas, data is only accepted when it is clear of bias and agenda. Maybe we will see a white lives matters movement when videos of unarmed whites being killed by police are surfaced like we see with blacks. With whites being the majority, we should be seeing them any time now, right?
Ravens Fan
07-14-2016, 08:12 PM
You touch on what I think is the primary problem here at least with regard to possible solutions. It doesn't appear that many blacks want any sort of dialogue. This is a monologue and the gist is that America is racist and we're not going to take it anymore. Now when that alienates whites they're described as "racist". The discussion ends before it starts and black men continue to be incarcerated, killed (usually by each other) and unemployed at a far higher rate than any other group.
I agree to a point. I believe that there are many that would have the conversation, but their voices are drowned out by the ones you describe.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 08:15 PM
I don't think it has been established, for just like other subject areas, data is only accepted when it is clear of bias and agenda. Maybe we will see a white lives matters movement when videos of unarmed whites being killed by police are surfaced like we see with blacks. With whites being the majority, we should be seeing them any time now, right?
Nothing will ever be free from bias. Demanding it be free from bias is just another way of saying you won't accept anything you can't reconcile with your current POV. You should instead look to the facts and the reasoning offered assuming of course you're actually seeking the truth. Many of us aren't. Anyway, you're not going to see such videos because most white people don't care. Most white people realize that people who get shot by the police are, generally speaking, degenerate morons.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 08:16 PM
I agree to a point. I believe that there are many that would have the conversation, but their voices are drowned out by the ones you describe.
Not trying to make a blanket statement but, yeah, the squeaky wheels get the oil.
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 08:18 PM
The name is very "irritating" because it seems to imply that only black matter; whereas, in fact, all lives matter.
Moreover, it is based upon a lie: i.e. the fabrication that Michael Brown shouted, "Hands up, don't shoot!" before being shot in Ferguson, Missouri, in August of 2014.
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
Chris
07-14-2016, 08:23 PM
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
Saw that, or part of it, and it was interesting, with a lot of good but disparate things said. But I got tired of Lemon's pushing agenda. 6 months ago he didn't, now he does, or maybe I just now see it.
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 08:25 PM
Saw that, or part of it, and it was interesting, with a lot of good but disparate things said. But I got tired of Lemon's pushing agenda. 6 months ago he didn't, now he does, or maybe I just now see it.
Agree he was a bit controlling, but overall it was a good discussion - lasted about 2 hours.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 08:26 PM
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
Exactly.
However, if I were in BLM I would make it a priority to address this misconception. In my mind they haven't really done that enough. That being said, there are some that wont be convinced regardless of how they clarify.
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 08:27 PM
The BLM movement doesn't bug me at all. I just dismiss them as dumb-ass racists who have no impact upon my life what so ever.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 08:28 PM
The BLM movement doesn't bug me at all. I just dismiss them as dumb-ass racists who have no impact upon my life what so ever.
Quite frankly, I'd rarely hear about it if I didn't log in here.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 08:30 PM
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
I agree 100%. It's that perception we need to discuss. White people in particular need to stop treating black perspectives as valid simply because they're black perspectives.
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 08:31 PM
... However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
Well, black, or brown lives don't seem to matter to them in many of their own communities. why should anyone else care if they don't care about themselves?
Mister D
07-14-2016, 08:36 PM
Well, black, or brown lives don't seem to matter to them in many of their own communities. why should anyone else care if they don't care about themselves?
We should all care. We all live here and we all have to deal with this crap. White indifference is hardly the problem here. The primary problem is the mentality many blacks have about the truth of their perceptions and this mentality has been nurtured for decades by white people. They're right, we're wrong and that's that. There can't be any discussion in this circumstances.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 08:42 PM
The BLM movement doesn't bug me at all. I just dismiss them as dumb-ass racists who have no impact upon my life what so ever.
What do you find racist about them?
I do know that there are certainly racist members, but what specifically about their message do you find racist?
Do you find black history month racist?
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 08:51 PM
I agree 100%. It's that perception we need to discuss. White people in particular need to stop treating black perspectives as valid simply because they're black perspectives.
Perception is everything. On that same town hall there were at least two middle to upper middle class black professionals who admitted to being terrified of being stopped by the police and terrified of the police stopping their children. Now these people are not living in gang banger central, so they are not afraid of bad elements killing themselves or their children, they are afraid of making an inadvertent false movement if stopped by the cops and ending up dead. They want some assurance that if they do everything right, that they won't be shot and killed.
Newpublius
07-14-2016, 08:59 PM
I'd say many whites would think, "But if we had a 'white lives matter' or 'NAAWP'," that would be considered racist. Of course the problem is that in context that's obviously not what BLM stands for, inter alia, that black Lives matter to the exclusion of white lives. The obvious context is that black Lives matter [too].
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 09:00 PM
We should all care. We all live here and we all have to deal with this crap. White indifference is hardly the problem here. The primary problem is the mentality many blacks have about the truth of their perceptions and this mentality has been nurtured for decades by white people. They're right, we're wrong and that's that. There can't be any discussion in this circumstances.
I don't have to deal with this crap where I live.
Yes, we should care, but I'll save my efforts and other resources to help those who at least attempt to help themselves through legitamate means.
Mister D
07-14-2016, 09:01 PM
Perception is everything. On that same town hall there were at least two middle to upper middle class black professionals who admitted to being terrified of being stopped by the police and terrified of the police stopping their children. Now these people are not living in gang banger central, so they are not afraid of bad elements killing themselves or their children, they are afraid of making an inadvertent false movement if stopped by the cops and ending up dead. They want some assurance that if they do everything right, that they won't be shot and killed.
Do you honestly think that's rational? If so, why? Can you base it on statistics? Is there anything you can base that perception on to make it reasonable?
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 09:01 PM
I'd say many whites would think, "But if we had a 'white lives matter' or 'NAAWP'," that would be considered racist. Of course the problem is that in context that's obviously not what BLM stands for, inter alia, that black Lives matter to the exclusion of white lives. The obvious context is that black Lives matter [too].
That's what I have always thought. I don't understand why so many view it otherwise.
Newpublius
07-14-2016, 09:05 PM
That's what I have always thought. I don't understand why so many view it otherwise.
Just as an aside there about 'branding' -- coining terms I suppose should consider the contextually challenged. Maybe #BLM2 from the get go precludes that rationale.
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 09:08 PM
What do you find racist about them?
I do know that there are certainly racist members, but what specifically about their message do you find racist?
Do you find black history month racist?
When a person stands in front of a group of BLM supporters and gets booed for saying " All Lives Matter" then needs to issue a public apology, that tells me this movement is simply race centric. It's not about improving the conditions of the underclass. I would be more supportive if they based their grievance on the truth surrounding the issue.
I find black history month completely unnecessary and counter productive. It fuels racism on both sides.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 09:11 PM
That's what I have always thought. I don't understand why so many view it otherwise.
I wont go looking for statistics, but from the experiences my black friends have related to me, it's a real phenomenon even here in snowy Canada. ;)
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 09:11 PM
I'd say many whites would think, "But if we had a 'white lives matter' or 'NAAWP'," that would be considered racist. Of course the problem is that in context that's obviously not what BLM stands for, inter alia, that black Lives matter to the exclusion of white lives. The obvious context is that black Lives matter [too].
The bitter malcontents would just respond by saying white lives are the only thing that's ever mattered and America from its founding is the NAAWP in and of itself.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 09:14 PM
When a person stands in front of a group of BLM supporters and gets booed for saying " All Lives Matter" then needs to issue a public apology, that tells me this movement is simply race centric. It's not about improving the conditions of the underclass. I would be more supportive if they based their grievance on the truth surrounding the issue.
I find black history month completely unnecessary and counter productive. It fuels racism on both sides.
The people doing that don't do it because they want a dialogue, they do it to counter them. They provoke and people react. Both sides are stupid in that respect.
I don't have a problem with black history month. The US has had a fairly unique experience and black people have indeed been left behind. I see no issue with trying to be inclusive and making an effort to look at a little known history that has been largely ignored. If that makes people racist, then they were already racist.
Safety
07-14-2016, 09:17 PM
That's what I have always thought. I don't understand why so many view it otherwise.
Several started saying it was racist, then the meme spreaded. Several outspoken protesters have tarnished the movement.
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 09:17 PM
Do you honestly think that's rational? If so, why? Can you base it on statistics? Is there anything you can base that perception on to make it reasonable?
It might be that black people, even those of means, are inordinately stopped by the police. Racial profiling? We have to admit that racial profiling exists. If a black person drives a nice car in the wrong neighborhood by happenstance, they are likely to get stopped. If a well off black kid is driving Mom's Lexus and playing loud rap music, what are the odds that he will be stopped by police even if his white friends do the same and don't attract police attention? Now I suppose all black parents could forbid their kids from driving their vehicles, or remove the entire audio system from the car and furthermore force them to dress like Poindexter, with little bow ties, but then they'd have a different problem on their hands.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 09:26 PM
It might be that black people, even those of means, are inordinately stopped by the police. Racial profiling? We have to admit that racial profiling exists. If a black person drives a nice car in the wrong neighborhood by happenstance, they are likely to get stopped. If a well off black kid is driving Mom's Lexus and playing loud rap music, what are the odds that he will be stopped by police even if his white friends do the same and don't attract police attention? Now I suppose all black parents could forbid their kids from driving their vehicles, or remove the entire audio system from the car and furthermore force them to dress like Poindexter, with little bow ties, but then they'd have a different problem on their hands.
What boggles my mind is that some people just don't believe that it's true. It's hard to have a rational discussion with someone who can't see that obvious truth. Racial profiling or pre judging, exists and we all do it. All races do it. As the US is predominantly white nation, the majority of the results of prejudice are the burden of minorities. Particularly blacks.
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 09:29 PM
The people doing that don't do it because they want a dialogue, they do it to counter them. They provoke and people react. Both sides are stupid in that respect.
I don't have a problem with black history month. The US has had a fairly unique experience and black people have indeed been left behind. I see no issue with trying to be inclusive and making an effort to look at a little known history that has been largely ignored. If that makes people racist, then they were already racist.
O'Malley said it trying start a reasonable dialogue and the malcontents weren't having any part of it. Being reasonable wasn't on their radar screen.
Being inclusive doesn't happen by creating divisions among people. We don't unite by concentrating on differences based on skin color.
As long as people live by your code, our problems will get worse.
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 09:39 PM
What boggles my mind is that some people just don't believe that it's true. It's hard to have a rational discussion with someone who can't see that obvious truth. Racial profiling or pre judging, exists and we all do it. All races do it. As the US is predominantly white nation, the majority of the results of prejudice are the burden of minorities. Particularly blacks.
I would add to that, that there are too many unarmed people of all kinds being killed by police. It's not a matter of black people complaining too much, but of white people complaining too little.
Another issue brought up in that town hall that I watched was the fact that we have police officers literally running from one jackpot to another, day in and day out. That stress has a significant psychological effect on people. I would imagine that a significant number of police officers are suffering from undiagnosed PTSD and they are out on the streets trying to hold it all together.
It was also suggested that police should be policing their own communities. They should come from those communities and that way they will know the community much better than people who live 30 miles away.
Standing Wolf
07-14-2016, 10:03 PM
It doesn't appear that many blacks want any sort of dialogue. This is a monologue and the gist is that America is racist and we're not going to take it anymore. Now when that alienates whites they're described as "racist". The discussion ends before it starts...
I have to agree. In terms of attempting to find and implement solutions to many of the problems experienced disproportionately by the Black community, the input of White people is neither sought nor appreciated, unless it is a number preceded by a dollar sign.
The desire to be seen as a martyr, an underdog or a freedom fighter is strong in our culture. It impinges on, even potentially destroys the illusion about oneself that many work hard to create if one is seen taking advice from, or even dialoging peacefully with, those whom you have set up as being Evil incarnate. Nineteen-year-old students marching and shouting, as they were doing some months ago, because they wanted a "safe space" where they would not hear anything they did not want to hear are a great example of clueless kids experiencing a First World Problem masquerading as a Civil Rights movement.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 10:05 PM
O'Malley said it trying start a reasonable dialogue and the malcontents weren't having any part of it. Being reasonable wasn't on their radar screen.
Being inclusive doesn't happen by creating divisions among people. We don't unite by concentrating on differences based on skin color.
As long as people live by your code, our problems will get worse.
Those venues are hostile and you're right BLM is wrong when it tries to drown out a different opinion.
I've seen great dialogue between opposing sides, but you don't get that at a rally. People go there to yell at other people. Sort of like here.
The reality is that there is a difference in skin colour and the result of that is a society with two sets of rules. There's nothing wrong with addressing an injustice. But it's not as if BLM is saying blacks are better or that they want segregation, they are simply saying we think the system is broken and they want people to notice.
Because we sort of only have two options as to why.
Option one is that poverty and resulting crime is a product of a long history of subjugation, dehumanization, emancipation yet continued oppression. Followed by a gradual lessening of racist attitudes/treatment and partial cultural acceptance, but a lingering subtle segregation that results in an economic disparity. All of this creating a cycle of poverty, lack of education, resulting increased drug use and associated crime. All creating a self perpetuating scenario that continues to escalate even while some blacks succeed and many enter the other cycle of the criminal justice system.
Option two is believed by some and it is that blacks are racially inferior.
I believe option one. I'm not saying you believe option two, but the question remains, why is the black community in such trouble?
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 10:10 PM
Those venues are hostile and you're right BLM is wrong when it tries to drown out a different opinion......
Is there such a thing as a non hostile BLM venue?
Tahuyaman
07-14-2016, 10:10 PM
Poverty does not cause crime.
Standing Wolf
07-14-2016, 10:14 PM
Several started saying it was racist, then the meme spreaded. Several outspoken protesters have tarnished the movement.
And increasingly - including on this thread - many who admit to having a problem with "BLM", or who consider its very premise to be racist, are themselves labeled "racist"...or that intimation is strongly made. Again, we have a situation where non-Black reactions to and feelings about the name of a group are discounted as being unimportant or misguided at best, racist at worst. As another member wrote (paraphrasing), the Black view is right by default, and if you're White, you have nothing to say that anyone really wants to hear.
Safety
07-14-2016, 10:18 PM
And increasingly - including on this thread - many who admit to having a problem with "BLM", or who consider its very premise to be racist, are themselves labeled "racist"...or that intimation is strongly made. Again, we have a situation where non-Black reactions to and feelings about the name of a group are discounted as being unimportant or misguided at best, racist at worst. As another member wrote (paraphrasing), the Black view is right by default, and if you're White, you have nothing to say that anyone really wants to hear.
Leading by example, I guess....
White is right.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 10:19 PM
Poverty does not cause crime.
Then what does?
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 10:20 PM
And increasingly - including on this thread - many who admit to having a problem with "BLM", or who consider its very premise to be racist, are themselves labeled "racist"...or that intimation is strongly made. Again, we have a situation where non-Black reactions to and feelings about the name of a group are discounted as being unimportant or misguided at best, racist at worst. As another member wrote (paraphrasing), the Black view is right by default, and if you're White, you have nothing to say that anyone really wants to hear.
Who said that?
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 10:26 PM
Those venues are hostile and you're right BLM is wrong when it tries to drown out a different opinion.
I've seen great dialogue between opposing sides, but you don't get that at a rally. People go there to yell at other people. Sort of like here.
The reality is that there is a difference in skin colour and the result of that is a society with two sets of rules. There's nothing wrong with addressing an injustice. But it's not as if BLM is saying blacks are better or that they want segregation, they are simply saying we think the system is broken and they want people to notice.
Because we sort of only have two options as to why.
Option one is that poverty and resulting crime is a product of a long history of subjugation, dehumanization, emancipation yet continued oppression. Followed by a gradual lessening of racist attitudes/treatment and partial cultural acceptance, but a lingering subtle segregation that results in an economic disparity. All of this creating a cycle of poverty, lack of education, resulting increased drug use and associated crime. All creating a self perpetuating scenario that continues to escalate even while some blacks succeed and many enter the other cycle of the criminal justice system.
Option two is believed by some and it is that blacks are racially inferior.
I believe option one. I'm not saying you believe option two, but the question remains, why is the black community in such trouble?
I agree that the combination of segregation and poverty creates a unique situation. It has been proven that "projects" were a terrible idea because they reinforced dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors. Places like South Central LA are just an organic project. These areas need to be redeveloped and social housing distributed to rentals and condos purchased by the city and spread around as much as possible so you no longer have "ghettos". Then you have neither racial nor poverty ghettos. The dominant value system will be absorbed by children surrounded by middle-class values. You will no longer have poor areas with bad schools and areas that are crime central. That will also go a long way to changing policing attitudes. It won't eliminate crime, but it will neutralize much of the causes.
Common Sense
07-14-2016, 10:35 PM
I agree that the combination of segregation and poverty creates a unique situation. It has been proven that "projects" were a terrible idea because they reinforced dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors. Places like South Central LA are just an organic project. These areas need to be redeveloped and social housing distributed to rentals and condos purchased by the city and spread around as much as possible so you no longer have "ghettos". Then you have neither racial nor poverty ghettos. The dominant value system will be absorbed by children surrounded by middle-class values. You will no longer have poor areas with bad schools and areas that are crime central. That will also go a long way to changing policing attitudes. It won't eliminate crime, but it will neutralize much of the causes.
I agree with that. While some on the right put a huge portion of the blame on those trying to help solve the problem, they do have a valid criticism of the left's good intentions gone wrong. I think welfare has the potential to help perpetuate a cycle of poverty, but it has helped many. The housing on the other hand was executed so poorly and certainly didn't help blacks and other poor people become good citizens. It ties in again with the fact that these issues are cycles and it's very hard to break them.
Dr. Who
07-14-2016, 10:48 PM
And increasingly - including on this thread - many who admit to having a problem with "BLM", or who consider its very premise to be racist, are themselves labeled "racist"...or that intimation is strongly made. Again, we have a situation where non-Black reactions to and feelings about the name of a group are discounted as being unimportant or misguided at best, racist at worst. As another member wrote (paraphrasing), the Black view is right by default, and if you're White, you have nothing to say that anyone really wants to hear.
The member said no such thing. The member suggested that it is taken for granted that white lives matter and that the perception is among non-whites, that their's have less value, rightly or wrongly. Is the suggestion that all black people who are walking around terrified of the police are crazy or delusional or suffering from mass hysteria?
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 03:06 AM
I don't think it has been established, for just like other subject areas, data is only accepted when it is clear of bias and agenda. Maybe we will see a white lives matters movement when videos of unarmed whites being killed by police are surfaced like we see with blacks. With whites being the majority, we should be seeing them any time now, right?
No, we won't be seeing that.
And, you know why?
Because, although there are small holdouts of whites who might think they have to seek protectionism for whites only, for the most part, whites have assimilated into the idea that they are a part of the human race, not a select group. And they understand that the laws must apply to all of us.
Plus, they rarely defend, although perhaps they should at times, whites who are killed by officers in the line of duty.
But, you deflected from my question of what will it take to make this a non-problem? What does BLM want? I've seen a range of demands as they related to different things -- like demanding certain educators step down, but what will satisfy the groups in the streets?
That's what I'd like your opinion on.
Standing Wolf
07-15-2016, 05:05 AM
The member said no such thing. The member suggested that it is taken for granted that white lives matter and that the perception is among non-whites, that their's have less value, rightly or wrongly. Is the suggestion that all black people who are walking around terrified of the police are crazy or delusional or suffering from mass hysteria?
Statistically, which scenario is far more likely: that a Black person will be killed by a police officer, or that he or she will be killed by another Black civilian? I see nothing paranoid or unreasonable about harboring some fear of the police; but it's like anything else in life - you prioritize your concerns and your efforts in the most rational and effective manner possible. The perception among some in the Black community may well be that their lives have less value, and their treatment by some non-Black individuals has without a doubt contributed to that perception. The entire point of this thread is that Black people are not the only ones who have perceptions - perceptions which, valid or otherwise, influence their judgments.
What I am suggesting is that, as I wrote earlier, when Black individuals or predominately Black groups are indiscriminate in their defense of police shooting "victims" - when they lump together those who have genuinely been the victims of police misconduct or incompetence and those who clearly brought their fate upon themselves - that's when the "Only" seems to be getting appended to the "BLM", however silently. When shooting a Black person - any Black person - earns you the "racist" tag, it appears that some in the Black community are seeking a sort of "protected species" status: you do not shoot or otherwise harm "one of us" under any circumstances.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 05:08 AM
That dude Milo is as big a douche as many of the BLM people.
It's like a douche on douche fest...
Milo is great. He puts the hard left in its place. He can do that in the US because of our 1st Amendment. He would likely be sued in Canada.
Safety
07-15-2016, 07:14 AM
No, we won't be seeing that.
And, you know why?
Because, although there are small holdouts of whites who might think they have to seek protectionism for whites only, for the most part, whites have assimilated into the idea that they are a part of the human race, not a select group. And they understand that the laws must apply to all of us.
Plus, they rarely defend, although perhaps they should at times, whites who are killed by officers in the line of duty.
But, you deflected from my question of what will it take to make this a non-problem? What does BLM want? I've seen a range of demands as they related to different things -- like demanding certain educators step down, but what will satisfy the groups in the streets?
That's what I'd like your opinion on.
So, what differentiates whites you speak about above, and whites that are found on sites like this one? You know, the ones that may not defend whites killed by officers, (which one could probably count on their fingers as to how many threads here are created on the subject), and the ones that immediately jump into the fray and take up the side of the officer in any black person vs police case, because they are white? Or because they "feel" attacked because the officer was white?
Cigar
07-15-2016, 07:23 AM
:happy1:
Safety
07-15-2016, 07:23 AM
Statistically, which scenario is far more likely: that a Black person will be killed by a police officer, or that he or she will be killed by another Black civilian? I see nothing paranoid or unreasonable about harboring some fear of the police; but it's like anything else in life - you prioritize your concerns and your efforts in the most rational and effective manner possible. The perception among some in the Black community may well be that their lives have less value, and their treatment by some non-Black individuals has without a doubt contributed to that perception. The entire point of this thread is that Black people are not the only ones who have perceptions - perceptions which, valid or otherwise, influence their judgments.
What I am suggesting is that, as I wrote earlier, when Black individuals or predominately Black groups are indiscriminate in their defense of police shooting "victims" - when they lump together those who have genuinely been the victims of police misconduct or incompetence and those who clearly brought their fate upon themselves - that's when the "Only" seems to be getting appended to the "BLM", however silently. When shooting a Black person - any Black person - earns you the "racist" tag, it appears that some in the Black community are seeking a sort of "protected species" status: you do not shoot or otherwise harm "one of us" under any circumstances.
That's where you would be mistaken. What you perceive to be wanting a "protected species" status, others see as wanting the same consideration given before lethal force is used. Too many here and in the real world are quick to marginalize the simple understanding about what BLM is trying to highlight...if in any situation, a black person can be substituted for a white person and due to the same actions they would still be alive, that is the disconnect many choose not to see.
Standing Wolf
07-15-2016, 08:03 AM
That's where you would be mistaken. What you perceive to be wanting a "protected species" status, others see as wanting the same consideration given before lethal force is used. Too many here and in the real world are quick to marginalize the simple understanding about what BLM is trying to highlight...if in any situation, a black person can be substituted for a white person and due to the same actions they would still be alive, that is the disconnect many choose not to see.
The problem with your last statement is that it assumes that there exist, for example, cases where White teenagers were waving around realistic-looking toy guns in a park and were not shot by police...or cases where grossly obese White men resisted arrest, attempted to fight the police and survived. Your assumption - that Black individuals are disproportionately shot by the police - is (1) not substantiated by the numbers, and (2) even if it were, could be in large measure accounted for by the fact that a disproportionate percentage of those engaged in criminal activities happen to be Black. Some completely innocent, law-abiding Black men are killed by police, as are some completely innocent, law-abiding White men and members of other racial groups - they are outliers. The overwhelming majority of shootings by police are justifiable homicides, regardless of the race or ethnicity of the deceased. "Bad shoots" should be investigated and prosecuted, regardless of the color of anyone involved - virtually everyone agrees with that. Attempting to make it into a race thing does nothing but muddy the waters and cause people to "choose sides" based on the color of the participants involved in the incident; it does not serve justice in any way.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 08:05 AM
So, what differentiates whites you speak about above, and whites that are found on sites like this one? You know, the ones that may not defend whites killed by officers, (which one could probably count on their fingers as to how many threads here are created on the subject), and the ones that immediately jump into the fray and take up the side of the officer in any black person vs police case, because they are white? Or because they "feel" attacked because the officer was white?
I've not seen this.
What I've seen are posters who call for cooler heads to prevail. Posters who call for calm because sensational stories are not always what they seem to be.
I strongly suspect that what you're seeing in the sentence emboldened above is misinterpretation. Instead of "taking the side" of the officer, do you think they could be practicing our American duty of "innocent before being proved guilty in a court of law?"
Dangerous lynch-mob mentality arose over the Michael Brown shooting.
Level heads called for calm and patience. I wasn't here at that time, but in other places the same scenario was likely being enacted.
In retrospect, that was the smart thing to do, given that Brown was not the innocent child the histrionic narrative originally made him out to be.
BLM is correct to point out the problems between the community and the PD. That said, statements such as "Abolish the Police,period" as well as hurling bricks at LEO on I94, the wrong message gets sent. Like LE, the bad apples will spoil the bunch and change the narrative.
IMHO
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 08:10 AM
That's where you would be mistaken. What you perceive to be wanting a "protected species" status, others see as wanting the same consideration given before lethal force is used.
Given that recent studies indicate that officers are quicker to shoot white suspects than black suspects, it's unlikely that blacks want the "same consideration" because that would mean officers being as quick to shoot black suspects as they are to shoot white suspects.
You can download the entire study here:
http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
Too many here and in the real world are quick to marginalize the simple understanding about what BLM is trying to highlight...if in any situation, a black person can be substituted for a white person and due to the same actions they would still be alive, that is the disconnect many choose not to see.
You know the results of the study. You know the stats. Just the fact that you insist on continuing down a dishonest road tells me that you're reacting on emotions, not logic.
Standing Wolf
07-15-2016, 08:16 AM
I've not seen this.
What I've seen are posters who call for cooler heads to prevail. Posters who call for calm because sensational stories are not always what they seem to be.
I strongly suspect that what you're seeing in the sentence emboldened above is misinterpretation. Instead of "taking the side" of the officer, do you think they could be practicing our American duty of "innocent before being proved guilty in a court of law?"
Dangerous lynch-mob mentality arose over the Michael Brown shooting.
Level heads called for calm and patience. I wasn't here at that time, but in other places the same scenario was likely being enacted.
In retrospect, that was the smart thing to do, given that Brown was not the innocent child the histrionic narrative originally made him out to be.
There are people who will take the side of the police, regardless of the situation or circumstances, but I think they tend to be older folks - people who grew up watching Dragnet and Adam-12 and thinking that all cops are like the ones those shows portrayed: squeaky-clean choirboys with the best of intentions. In my own backyard, they're the type of folks who've kept "The Toughest Sheriff in America", Joe Arpaio, in office, despite his being as corrupt a cop as ever drew breath.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 08:23 AM
The problem with your last statement is that it assumes that there exist, for example, cases where White teenagers were waving around realistic-looking toy guns in a park and were not shot by police...or cases where grossly obese White men resisted arrest, attempted to fight the police and survived. .
Some whites might not have been shot -- impossible to prove a negative -- but others have been killed because officers mistook a play gun for the real thing. Tamir Rice was not something new. This has been going on for years, because toy guns look too much like the real thing.
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/another-kid-with-a-toy-gun-shot-by-cops_112013
https://www.rt.com/usa/toy-rifle-pulled-gun-traffic-059/
http://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/man-shot-by-virginia-beach-police-had-toy-gun/article_c5c4a97a-75dd-572b-9fc3-d52d0621f557.html
The issue should be proper of officers -- not casting aspersions on all based on a few -- and not pretending that only blacks are shot by officers.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 08:30 AM
There are people who will take the side of the police, regardless of the situation or circumstances, but I think they tend to be older folks - people who grew up watching Dragnet and Adam-12 and thinking that all cops are like the ones those shows portrayed: squeaky-clean choirboys with the best of intentions.
LOL -- I know the type. And, they're pretty much that way across the board -- most don't differentiate a lot based on the race of the suspect.
In my own backyard, they're the type of folks who've kept "The Toughest Sheriff in America", Joe Arpaio, in office, despite his being as corrupt a cop as ever drew breath.
I haven't heard too much about Arpaio the past few months. Is he less of a hard a$$? Or, did the media just tire of him?
Safety
07-15-2016, 08:43 AM
The problem with your last statement is that it assumes that there exist, for example, cases where White teenagers were waving around realistic-looking toy guns in a park and were not shot by police...or cases where grossly obese White men resisted arrest, attempted to fight the police and survived. Your assumption - that Black individuals are disproportionately shot by the police - is (1) not substantiated by the numbers, and (2) even if it were, could be in large measure accounted for by the fact that a disproportionate percentage of those engaged in criminal activities happen to be Black. Some completely innocent, law-abiding Black men are killed by police, as are some completely innocent, law-abiding White men and members of other racial groups - they are outliers. The overwhelming majority of shootings by police are justifiable homicides, regardless of the race or ethnicity of the deceased. "Bad shoots" should be investigated and prosecuted, regardless of the color of anyone involved - virtually everyone agrees with that. Attempting to make it into a race thing does nothing but muddy the waters and cause people to "choose sides" based on the color of the participants involved in the incident; it does not serve justice in any way.
We can have that discussion, on whether or not the order to comply before shooting non-blacks is the same time as given to their white counterparts. If there was not an aire of disparity, then there would not be any traction given to the thought.
Tahuyaman
07-15-2016, 08:49 AM
Then what does?
the breakdown of the family unit is one of the biggest causes of crime. Dumbing down the population and declining moral standards is another factor.
Safety
07-15-2016, 08:54 AM
Some whites might not have been shot -- impossible to prove a negative -- but others have been killed because officers mistook a play gun for the real thing. Tamir Rice was not something new. This has been going on for years, because toy guns look too much like the real thing.
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/another-kid-with-a-toy-gun-shot-by-cops_112013
https://www.rt.com/usa/toy-rifle-pulled-gun-traffic-059/
http://pilotonline.com/news/local/crime/man-shot-by-virginia-beach-police-had-toy-gun/article_c5c4a97a-75dd-572b-9fc3-d52d0621f557.html
The issue should be proper of officers -- not casting aspersions on all based on a few -- and not pretending that only blacks are shot by officers.
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/another-kid-with-a-toy-gun-shot-by-cops_112013
Officers arrived in the area at 12:01 p.m. and reported the male was running through some bushes toward the Drive Thru Party Factory at 250 S. Washington Ave. near Grove Street and was carrying what appeared to be handgun.
The male entered the store but then came out and was crouching near the drive-through area of the store.
The officer arrived, saw the person, and called for him to show his hands. Saylor said the investigation thus far shows that the teen produced what appeared to be a large-caliber handgun from his clothing.
We saw the Tamir Rice video, he was given 1.5 seconds to comply before being shot.
https://www.rt.com/usa/toy-rifle-pul...n-traffic-059/
Sonoma County Sheriff’s Deputy Erick Gelhaus is currently on paid administrative leave after fatally shooting 13-year-old Andy Lopez, who was walking to a friend’s house with a replica AK-47. The tragedy has made international headlines and frustrated the local community, with vigils and protests against the police taking place over the past ten days.
Vigils and protests...seems like they were questioning the actions of the police, in a questionable shoot...
http://pilotonline.com/news/local/cr...d0621f557.html
Police chase? Two chances to comply with officers before being shot twice?
After a short pursuit through the Aragona subdivision, Newcomb crashed into another car in the 300 block of S. Witchduck Road.
Newcomb got out of his car and pointed what looked like a gun at officers. Barnes said police initially thought Newcomb had fired at the officers. They later learned he had been wielding a toy gun.
When Newcomb didn't obey police orders, Barnes said, an officer fired at him.
Barnes said Newcomb ran to the parking lot of a nearby business and hid behind a truck. When police found him, he raised the toy gun a second time.
I get you are trying to find an equivalent to what we have seen in the news regarding blacks being killed by police, but so far the examples you have presented are not fitting the bill. If any of the BLM protests were over some guy leading police on a chase and then raising a gun at them after crashing his vehicle, then the BLM would be nothing more than a Westboro event. However, with the many videos out that show an incredible wanton disregard for human life, there isn't too much data sets available that will come close to answering the outrage. Kinda like how climate change is still be argued, even after many, many data sets point to one conclusion.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 09:10 AM
I think people need to be constantly reminded that The Black Lives Matters movement is a NON-Centralized Movement that organizes via Social Media.
In addition, critics who try to paint this group as a Black Militant Group, also need to be constantly reminded that Black Lives Matters is a movement with many different Races, Ethnicities and different Cultural and Gender Backgrounds.
Sure most of the BLM Protestors are Black, but duaaaa ... why wouldn't a protesting group wanting to bring attention to Black Issues not be supported by that group? :tongue:
Chris
07-15-2016, 09:18 AM
I think people need to be constantly reminded that The Black Lives Matters movement is a NON-Centralized Movement that organizes via Social Media.
In addition, critics who try to paint this group as a Black Militant Group, also need to be constantly reminded that Black Lives Matters is a movement with many different Races, Ethnicities and different Cultural and Gender Backgrounds.
Sure most of the BLM Protestors are Black, but duaaaa ... why wouldn't a protesting group wanting to bring attention to Black Issues not be supported by that group? :tongue:
That's why I like them generally, despite some being antagonistic, they are very anarchistic being decentralized.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 09:29 AM
I get you are trying to find an equivalent to what we have seen in the news regarding blacks being killed by police, but so far the examples you have presented are not fitting the bill. If any of the BLM protests were over some guy leading police on a chase and then raising a gun at them after crashing his vehicle, then the BLM would be nothing more than a Westboro event. However, with the many videos out that show an incredible wanton disregard for human life, there isn't too much data sets available that will come close to answering the outrage. Kinda like how climate change is still be argued, even after many, many data sets point to one conclusion.
No, I don't think you "get it."
You know that more whites than blacks are killed by officers, yet, your narrative doesn't change. You will nitpick and split hairs to try and make your plight seem different.
You want blood. I sense that.
Safety
07-15-2016, 09:32 AM
No, I don't think you "get it."
You know that more whites than blacks are killed by officers, yet, your narrative doesn't change. You will nitpick and split hairs to try and make your plight seem different.
You want blood. I sense that.
Don't get all microaggressive on me again. I am simply saying that although more whites are killed by officers, the situations in which whites are killed are different than the situations in which blacks are killed. That's it, simple. Period.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 09:32 AM
In addition, critics who try to paint this group as a Black Militant Group, also need to be constantly reminded that Black Lives Matters is a movement with many different Races, Ethnicities and different Cultural and Gender Backgrounds.
I don't see BLM as a black militant group.
It's just a group that's coiled itself into a frenzy over a false narrative. Just regular folks, hyped up on media sensationalism. I don't blame them as much as I blame the media.
Standing Wolf
07-15-2016, 09:42 AM
I haven't heard too much about Arpaio the past few months. Is he less of a hard a$$? Or, did the media just tire of him?
The federal courts have been slapping him around pretty good lately. Joe tends to live in his own little world and likes to pretend that he's untouchable and can do anything he damn well pleases, and that's starting to catch up with him. He's running for Sheriff again, and - God help us - he will probably win again. His opponent is a good cop and a good man, but he's not as flashy as old Joe and doesn't have the name recognition. Closer to the election, Joe will no doubt try to convince the oldsters that he's the only thing standing between them and hordes of evil brown rapists and muggers flooding across the border; it's what seems to work.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 09:42 AM
I think people need to be constantly reminded that The Black Lives Matters movement is a NON-Centralized Movement that organizes via Social Media.
Like the Tea Party(ies)
Cigar
07-15-2016, 09:42 AM
Like the Tea Party(ies)
Ok ... so?
Dr. Who
07-15-2016, 09:52 AM
Statistically, which scenario is far more likely: that a Black person will be killed by a police officer, or that he or she will be killed by another Black civilian? I see nothing paranoid or unreasonable about harboring some fear of the police; but it's like anything else in life - you prioritize your concerns and your efforts in the most rational and effective manner possible. The perception among some in the Black community may well be that their lives have less value, and their treatment by some non-Black individuals has without a doubt contributed to that perception. The entire point of this thread is that Black people are not the only ones who have perceptions - perceptions which, valid or otherwise, influence their judgments.
What I am suggesting is that, as I wrote earlier, when Black individuals or predominately Black groups are indiscriminate in their defense of police shooting "victims" - when they lump together those who have genuinely been the victims of police misconduct or incompetence and those who clearly brought their fate upon themselves - that's when the "Only" seems to be getting appended to the "BLM", however silently. When shooting a Black person - any Black person - earns you the "racist" tag, it appears that some in the Black community are seeking a sort of "protected species" status: you do not shoot or otherwise harm "one of us" under any circumstances.
What most people fail to realize is that there are more members of the black community who do not live in violent neighborhoods than those who do, thus those statistics which everyone likes to promote with respect to the odds of being killed in black on black crime are inherently skewed as they would be if a portion of any ethnic group lived in a war zone and the rest did not. That also means that the reality of those violent communities may be no more really understood by blacks living outside of those communities than by whites, but unlike whites, blacks living outside of those communities do experience differential treatment by police officers.
Let's also not overlook the role of the media in exacerbating the impression that police are targeting unarmed blacks and once doubt is placed in the minds of people who already have reason to question the fairness of policing, it is hard to dismiss it, particularly when there have been some seriously questionable shootings mixed in with those that were clearly situations of self-defense. Added to that, we now have video to accompany many of these deaths at police hands. When anyone, no matter who you are, sees a police officer choking someone to death, or sees a police officer shooting someone in the back, or as with the recent case of Alton Sterling, sees an officer pumping bullets into a prone individual, it will provoke an emotional response.
That said, those who turn out for the BLM protests are a mixture of people with clearly different agendas. BLM itself is not a uniform organization with a single leader. It is a coalition of different groups each with its own political focus, some of whom that are, regrettably, the militant black power types. I think that it's a mistake for BLM to try to be too many things to too many people as it blurs its original message and often allows the agendas of some of its more outrageous members to eclipse those with reasonable requests.
Tahuyaman
07-15-2016, 09:58 AM
I don't see BLM as a black militant group.
It's just a group that's coiled itself into a frenzy over a false narrative. Just regular folks, hyped up on media sensationalism. I don't blame them as much as I blame the media.
Thats a good point, but there are many people out there just looking for any reason, legit or not, to act out. Maybe the media can be blamed for that by not reporting the truth surrounding the issues.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 10:04 AM
I don't see BLM as a black militant group.
It's just a group that's coiled itself into a frenzy over a false narrative. Just regular folks, hyped up on media sensationalism. I don't blame them as much as I blame the media.
This is the biggest divide ... people like you don't see or believe in the narrative ... therefore, by decoration, there's is no narrative or the narrative is false. Now they should just go away and shut up. Here's the problem for people who think that way; the days of going away and shut up are long gone, and there's nothing the critics can do about it.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 10:38 AM
Real improvement with race relations begins with children. Instead of African American parents bringing children to protest marches they should be bringing their kids up to police officers (white, Hispanic, Asian, black, it doesn't matter) and introducing their kids to them, have those kids shake hands, smile, and imprint in their head that the police aren't the enemy, and in turn the police will do the same. Bias and racism is learned. Reconciliation has to start somewhere and it won't be on a protest march in my opinion or in a jail or at a funeral.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 10:40 AM
Real improvement with race relations begins with children. Instead of African American parents bringing children to protest marches they should be bringing their kids up to police officers (white, Hispanic, Asian, black, it doesn't matter) and introducing their kids to them, have those kids shake hands, smile, and imprint in their head that the police aren't the enemy, and in turn the police will do the same. Bias and racism is learned. Reconciliation has to start somewhere and it won't be on a protest march in my opinion or in a jail or at a funeral.
:huh: ... and what makes you think Parents are not doing that?
Totally amazing what people think they know about Black People. :laugh:
Chris
07-15-2016, 10:48 AM
:huh: ... and what makes you think Parents are not doing that?
Totally amazing what people think they know about Black People. :laugh:
Aren't you assuming the same, that you speak for all blacks?
Chloe was saying what she thinks parents should do, not what they think or don't. Those that do, would agree, those who don't, well, maybe they should.
Goes for all parents.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 10:53 AM
Aren't you assuming the same, that you speak for all blacks?
Chloe was saying what she thinks parents should do, not what they think or don't. Those that do, would agree, those who don't, well, maybe they should.
Goes for all parents.
Well considering I have actually been Black for 50 more years than you and along with many other Black People I physically know that actively participate in community outreach programs with local police ... and still do at least 4 times a year through my local HOA, and twice a year through a children's charity I belong to ... I can speak from first, not second hand experience.
:wink:
Safety
07-15-2016, 10:54 AM
Aren't you assuming the same, that you speak for all blacks?
Chloe was saying what she thinks parents should do, not what they think or don't. Those that do, would agree, those who don't, well, maybe they should.
Goes for all parents.
Would the same consideration be given if cigar suggested what white parents should do to not raise their kids to learn bigotry? I think some here would take offense to him suggesting such.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 11:01 AM
:huh: ... and what makes you think Parents are not doing that?
Totally amazing what people think they know about Black People. :laugh:
I'm sorry but the day that you provide a single sincere solution to any of these race issues on any of your numerous race related threads will be the day you can lecture me.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 11:13 AM
Would the same consideration be given if cigar suggested what white parents should do to not raise their kids to learn bigotry? I think some here would take offense to him suggesting such.
From you, yes, from cigar, no. One has credibility through sincere past action/comments and the other doesn't.
Chris
07-15-2016, 11:14 AM
Well considering I have actually been Black for 50 more years that you and along with many other Black People I physically know that actively participate in community outreach programs with local police ... and still do at least 4 times a year through my local HOA, and twice a year through a children's charity I belong to ... I can speak from first, not second hand experience.
:wink:
So are you saying there is something so fundamentally different between blacks and whites we can't intuit how each other think, feel, act, react, that we just cannot relate to each other? Think about that for a minute.
Chris
07-15-2016, 11:16 AM
Would the same consideration be given if cigar suggested what white parents should do to not raise their kids to learn bigotry? I think some here would take offense to him suggesting such.
I imagine that argument from hypocrisy would depend on the individual.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 11:17 AM
I'm sorry but the day that you provide a single sincere solution to any of these race issues on any of your numerous race related threads will be the day you can lecture me.
I have no intentions of lecturing you on anything.
But I'm more than happy to share with you some first hand experiences. :wink:
Cigar
07-15-2016, 11:21 AM
From you, yes, from cigar, no. One has credibility through sincere past action/comments and the other doesn't.
I sure hope your measurement of credibility isn't taken from Internet Forums, I'd hate to see you shortchanging yourself on knowledge and credibility.
But your choice.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 11:24 AM
Don't get all microaggressive on me again. I am simply saying that although more whites are killed by officers, the situations in which whites are killed are different than the situations in which blacks are killed. That's it, simple. Period.
Dead is dead.
The families mourn just as much.
When I said you split hairs, this is what I meant.
You haven't corned the market on suffering. Not by a long shot.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 11:27 AM
This is the biggest divide ... people like you don't see or believe in the narrative ... therefore, by decoration, there's is no narrative or the narrative is false. Now they should just go away and shut up. Here's the problem for people who think that way; the days of going away and shut up are long gone, and there's nothing the critics can do about it.
I wasn't the one who did the in-depth study.
A black professor was.
No one said they should go away or shut up.
But, it would help if they'd get their facts straight.
Safety
07-15-2016, 11:45 AM
From you, yes, from cigar, no. One has credibility through sincere past action/comments and the other doesn't.
Thanks, I have learned with my experience here that some things can be discussed openly, and some things are best to just bite your tongue and move on.
Safety
07-15-2016, 11:48 AM
Dead is dead.
The families mourn just as much.
When I said you split hairs, this is what I meant.
You haven't corned the market on suffering. Not by a long shot.
It's not splitting hairs, everything is relative. If dead is dead, then why do we have different categories of homicide?
I'm not trying to take away anything from anyone, just expressing my opinion.
Safety
07-15-2016, 11:50 AM
I imagine that argument from hypocrisy would depend on the individual.
I reckon, but given past interactions on the subject, it can be easily proven.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 11:50 AM
Thanks, I have learned with my experience here that some things can be discussed openly, and some things are best to just bite your tongue and move on.
:laugh: I never did learn that skill of biting my tongue and moving on, I guess that's why I could never work in an cubicle environment.
pjohns
07-15-2016, 11:53 AM
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
It matters a great deal whether that "perception" is right or wrong. It should not be so breezily dismissed.
And you did not address, at all, my second (and probably most important) point, viz.: that the "Black Lives Matter" movement is based entirely upon a lie.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 11:54 AM
It's not splitting hairs, everything is relative. If dead is dead, then why do we have different categories of homicide?
I'm not trying to take away anything from anyone, just expressing my opinion.
Homicide categories relate to intent. Accidents are obviously not as punishable as are premeditated murders.
No one feels good about sending someone to the chair for accidentally killing a person. And, that is the way most officer-killings proceed as well. Most officers do not set out to kill folks.
But, aggrieved families do not suffer any less because their brother, father, son was white as opposed to black.
This "us" vs "them" mentality has to end before we can move forward.
pjohns
07-15-2016, 11:56 AM
Then what does [cause crime]?
I would say, a lack of any grounding in morals, or even being properly socialized...
Cigar
07-15-2016, 11:57 AM
It matters a great deal whether that "perception" is right or wrong. It should not be so breezily dismissed.
And you did not address, at all, my second (and probably most important) point, viz.: that the "Black Lives Matter" movement is based entirely upon a lie.
Why do you care what a movement is based on? Slogans don't make a Movement, Causes and Actions do.
Arn't you happy that young people of all walks of life are uniting together to peacefully make change, ranter than violently make change?
Chris
07-15-2016, 11:57 AM
I reckon, but given past interactions on the subject, it can be easily proven.
Argument from hypocrisy is a fallacy, fallacies can't be proven.
pjohns
07-15-2016, 11:59 AM
Argument from hypocrisy is a fallacy...
Excellent point!
(The tu quoque fallacy, to be exact; which basically says, "You, too!" Or, "You're another!")
Safety
07-15-2016, 12:19 PM
Homicide categories relate to intent. Accidents are obviously not as punishable as are premeditated murders.
No one feels good about sending someone to the chair for accidentally killing a person. And, that is the way most officer-killings proceed as well. Most officers do not set out to kill folks.
But, aggrieved families do not suffer any less because their brother, father, son was white as opposed to black.
This "us" vs "them" mentality has to end before we can move forward.
Again, who has said how much a family should suffer because of their color? The Dallas shooter's parents are suffering because their son is dead, however, are you suggesting that the deceased cops' family should have the same level of suffering because they are dead also? No, they should have a higher level of suffering, because their lives were taken by a coward.
Safety
07-15-2016, 12:20 PM
Argument from hypocrisy is a fallacy, fallacies can't be proven.
I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole with you.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 12:27 PM
From you, yes, from cigar, no. One has credibility through sincere past action/comments and the other doesn't.
Exactly.
zelmo1234
07-15-2016, 12:30 PM
Why do you care what a movement is based on? Slogans don't make a Movement, Causes and Actions do.
Arn't you happy that young people of all walks of life are uniting together to peacefully make change, ranter than violently make change?
There protests have not been all that peaceful. And they have groups calling for the murder of Police officers.
But here is the issue for the BLM movement. They have based their cause on lies and deception.
When you look into the background of nearly everyone that they are defending, they turn out to be dirtbags and most of the time the police are not even charged with a crime because they did nothing wrong.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 12:32 PM
I would say, a lack of any grounding in morals, or even being properly socialized...
...and what is the cause of that?
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 12:33 PM
I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole with you.
It's a tired line.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 12:33 PM
It might be that black people, even those of means, are inordinately stopped by the police. Racial profiling? We have to admit that racial profiling exists. If a black person drives a nice car in the wrong neighborhood by happenstance, they are likely to get stopped. If a well off black kid is driving Mom's Lexus and playing loud rap music, what are the odds that he will be stopped by police even if his white friends do the same and don't attract police attention? Now I suppose all black parents could forbid their kids from driving their vehicles, or remove the entire audio system from the car and furthermore force them to dress like Poindexter, with little bow ties, but then they'd have a different problem on their hands.
That might very well be but it's not what I asked. Do you really think it's rational for middle class black parents to fear for their children at the hands of the police? If so, what is that based on? Statistics? What makes that fear rational? I can understand the fear of lower class black parents (parents that care). Their kids will likely be exposed to gangs and the police don't operate like they do in middle class neighborhoods. If you're seen with gang members and have gang banger friends you'll likely be guilty by association. That I get.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 12:35 PM
...and what is the cause of that?
I'd suggest single parent families contribute.
Chris
07-15-2016, 12:39 PM
It's a tired line.
Indeed, "go down this rabbit hole" is worn out.
Chris
07-15-2016, 12:41 PM
I'd suggest single parent families contribute.
ALong with an infestation of modern liberalism that wants to deny morality beyond mere relativism.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 12:42 PM
I have to agree. In terms of attempting to find and implement solutions to many of the problems experienced disproportionately by the Black community, the input of White people is neither sought nor appreciated, unless it is a number preceded by a dollar sign.
The desire to be seen as a martyr, an underdog or a freedom fighter is strong in our culture. It impinges on, even potentially destroys the illusion about oneself that many work hard to create if one is seen taking advice from, or even dialoging peacefully with, those whom you have set up as being Evil incarnate. Nineteen-year-old students marching and shouting, as they were doing some months ago, because they wanted a "safe space" where they would not hear anything they did not want to hear are a great example of clueless kids experiencing a First World Problem masquerading as a Civil Rights movement.
And we're seeing that (bold) here on this thread. Unless your intent is to validate black perceptions then you have no right to offer anything and, better still, you're probably a racist. I find it amazing that members of our forum who have never had any racist intent and even some progressives are castigated or dismissed as soon as they deviate from racial orthodoxy.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 12:42 PM
:biglaugh:
Mister D
07-15-2016, 12:44 PM
ALong with an infestation of modern liberalism that wants to deny morality beyond mere relativism.
I think it's clear that the slide into relativity has impacted the poor and working classes the most.
pjohns
07-15-2016, 12:52 PM
...and what is the cause of [a lack of any grounding in morals, or even being properly socialized]?
Often, it is the lack of a second parent in the house.
In any case, I believe fully in personal responsibility.
That means that nothing is ever the fault of society, in general.
Whatever one's life circumstances, one must take full ownership of one's actions. No exceptions.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 12:54 PM
Thanks, I have learned with my experience here that some things can be discussed openly, and some things are best to just bite your tongue and move on.
I don't pretend to understand what the average black person has gone through in their life but there is a difference in my opinion between talking about something and actually doing something to change it in a way that will actually stick. I'm sure many black people have been exposed to bigotry either directly or indirectly, and I'm sure there are some black people that haven't been true victims of bigotry at all but are somehow embarrassed of that fact and try to empathize out of their shared skin color. Just as there are many white people that hold bigoted thoughts and do bigoted actions and some that genuinely do not care what color you are and will appreciate you as the human being you are (same goes for black people).
Using past experiences as a black person, whether they really involved you or not, is great for talking about the problems that have occurred but does very little wth regards to solutions. People like cigar will talk and talk and talk and hint at bad experiences in an attempt to silence or embarrass others into not offering solutions by people such as me that go contrary to their desires or political goals but at the end of the day it doesn't solve a single thing.
The only way to truly bridge the gap between blacks and whites is through long term reconciliation that allows both sides to save face and both sides to feel like they are being listened to and understood. If a black family approaches a white cop on the street and forms a type of kinship through conversation, thanks, and so on then whatever hidden or festering bigotry in the cops heart may be replaced with a hint of empathy and may cause that cop in the future to not judge someone based on their skin color at that first encounter. They will hopefully remember that small black child that shook his hand and said thank you for protecting all of us. Enough people do that then you change one mind at a time. It may take time, but you can't force a mind to change through a march or by a slogan. Same goes for the white cop to approach a black family and genuinely ask how they are doing and genuinely wanting to let them know that he is there for them.
again though, protesting cops and teaching kids to have a skepticism towards cops, especially white cops, will never ever solve a single problem between the two sides. Never. Anyway that's just my opinion. Like I said I don't know what it's like to be black but I do know what it feels like and looks like to have a positive human interaction, and that's all this really is about.
Chris
07-15-2016, 01:00 PM
I don't pretend to understand what the average black person has gone through in their life but there is a difference in my opinion between talking about something and actually doing something to change it in a way that will actually stick. I'm sure many black people have been exposed to bigotry either directly or indirectly, and I'm sure there are some black people that haven't been true victims of bigotry at all but are somehow embarrassed of that fact and try to empathize out of their shared skin color. Just as there are many white people that hold bigoted thoughts and do bigoted actions and some that genuinely do not care what color you are and will appreciate you as the human being you are (same goes for black people).
Using past experiences as a black person, whether they really involved you or not, is great for talking about the problems that have occurred but does very little wth regards to solutions. People like cigar will talk and talk and talk and hint at bad experiences in an attempt to silence or embarrass others into not offering solutions by people such as me that go contrary to their desires or political goals but at the end of the day it doesn't solve a single thing.
The only way to truly bridge the gap between blacks and whites is through long term reconciliation that allows both sides to save face and both sides to feel like they are being listened to and understood. If a black family approaches a white cop on the street and forms a type of kinship through conversation, thanks, and so on then whatever hidden or festering bigotry in the cops heart may be replaced with a hint of empathy and may cause that cop in the future to not judge someone based on their skin color at that first encounter. They will hopefully remember that small black child that shook his hand and said thank you for protecting all of us. Enough people do that then you change one mind at a time. It may take time, but you can't force a mind to change through a march or by a slogan. Same goes for the white cop to approach a black family and genuinely ask how they are doing and genuinely wanting to let them know that he is there for them.
again though, protesting cops and teaching kids to have a skepticism towards cops, especially white cops, will never ever solve a single problem between the two sides. Never. Anyway that's just my opinion. Like I said I don't know what it's like to be black but I do know what it feels like and looks like to have a positive human interaction, and that's all this really is about.
As Dr. Who mentioned earlier in thread there was the other night a sort of round table of various guests and audience of different races, sexes, etc that included police on panel and in audience. I didn't much care for how host Lemon tried to steer things, and the talk was somewhat disparate, but the people were genuinely trying to have a discussion and were at least beginning to interact and as one big old bearded black guy kept saying that's where it starts.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:03 PM
As Dr. Who mentioned earlier in thread there was the other night a sort of round table of various guests and audience of different races, sexes, etc that included police on panel and in audience. I didn't much care for how host Lemon tried to steer things, and the talk was somewhat disparate, but the people were genuinely trying to have a discussion and were at least beginning to interact and as one big old bearded black guy kept saying that's where it starts.
sincere dialogue and true reconciliation and understanding by ALL races benefits ALL races in this country, not just white and black.
Dr. Who
07-15-2016, 01:08 PM
That might very well be but it's not what I asked. Do you really think it's rational for middle class black parents to fear for their children at the hands of the police? If so, what is that based on? Statistics? What makes that fear rational? I can understand the fear of lower class black parents (parents that care). Their kids will likely be exposed to gangs and the police don't operate like they do in middle class neighborhoods. If you're seen with gang members and have gang banger friends you'll likely be guilty by association. That I get.
As I mentioned, it is likely the fact that they have had their own unpleasant interactions with police over the years and those interactions are not getting better over time. They are not necessarily perceived as being middle-class law abiding people when they are driving or in situations where all manner of people gather, as in shopping areas, movie theaters etc. What also doesn't help is the fact that fashions for kids often mimic whatever the latest popular performers in the music industry are wearing, and if that fashion was spawned by inmates of the criminal justice system, then the dress of the nice middle-class black kids is basically little different than the gang bangers in the hood. The police won't be checking out the labels on that clothing before they start profiling. In the circumstances, yes, these people have very rational fears.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 01:10 PM
Again, who has said how much a family should suffer because of their color? The Dallas shooter's parents are suffering because their son is dead, however, are you suggesting that the deceased cops' family should have the same level of suffering because they are dead also? No, they should have a higher level of suffering, because their lives were taken by a coward.
It doesn't work that way.
Suffering doesn't depend on who killed your loved one.
You will miss them just as much if they drown or get hit by a car. Your level of suffering depends on how prepared you are to live without out them and how much you miss them.
When I volunteered on the ambulance they got a call (I wasn't there) for a woman shot in the cemetery. She was already dead but she'd shot herself on her young son's grave.
Now, that is a sign of unbearable suffering. And, her son died of cancer.
Dead is dead.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:17 PM
As I mentioned, it is likely the fact that they have had their own unpleasant interactions with police over the years and those interactions are not getting better over time. They are not necessarily perceived as being middle-class law abiding people when they are driving or in situations where all manner of people gather, as in shopping areas, movie theaters etc. What also doesn't help is the fact that fashions for kids often mimic whatever the latest popular performers in the music industry are wearing, and if that fashion was spawned by inmates of the criminal justice system, then the dress of the nice middle-class black kids is basically little different than the gang bangers in the hood. The police won't be checking out the labels on that clothing before they start profiling. In the circumstances, yes, these people have very rational fears.
Let's assume you're correct. Middle class black people get stopped disproportionately by the police than middle class whites. So what? How do we (rationally) go from that to a significant possibility of your children being gunned down by racist cops? What do we base that on? Statistics? What?
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:19 PM
I'm still amused by how incredulous some black people can be when they hear that whites actually get stopped by the police without having done anything.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:30 PM
I'm still amused by how incredulous some black people can be when they hear that whites actually get stopped by the police without having done anything.
Ill openly admit that I've had a number of encounters with Portlands finest on more than one occasion. From speeding tickets, not fully stopping at a stop sign, texting while driving ticket, a MIP, and even jay walking. I deserved every single citation, scolding, and humiliating moment, and mixed in I've also been let off with warnings. In my mind at the time I felt like it was unfair but in retrospect I'm a dangerous person it seems.
My point is though is that I deserved each of those moments, but I can't in all honesty say that a black person would have had the same reasonably pleasant officer experiences in each of those moments. I'm white, young, not ugly, driving a nice car in a nice neighborhood. I meet the persona, the expectation, the stereotype if you will. Replace me with a black person and would the officer have treated that person equally? I don't know if they would. I'd like to think so, but there is that doubt, and if I have that doubt im certain a black person does. That needs to change.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 01:34 PM
I'm still amused by how incredulous some black people can be when they hear that whites actually get stopped by the police without having done anything.
It happens a lot. I got stopped a few years ago coming back from a jobsite where I'd gone to help on a concrete pour because a couple of guys couldn't make it. I had a ponytail on top of my head and a bandana to keep concrete splatters out of my hair, so I'm sure I looked a fright. Deputy (one of the few I didn't know) passed me then whipped around and stopped me. Told me I didn't look as if I should be driving a Mercedes. LOL Today, when I see him, I harass him about it.
Another time, our eldest son was home from college and he was sporting the wild-hair college look. He decided to walk into town, which is about 4 miles away. On the county highway a deputy stopped and demanded some ID. After the deputy satisfied himself that my kid wasn't a serial killer, my kid asked him for a ride to town. The deputy said, sure, but I gotta frisk you first. My son got the ride.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 01:36 PM
My point is though is that I deserved each of those moments, but I can't in all honesty say that a black person would have had the same reasonably pleasant officer experiences in each of those moments.
That's a possibility and, as you say, it shouldn't happen.
Another thing that occurs is misogynistic officers that treat females poorly.
When those kinds of things happen, it really speaks more to the officer's lack of confidence and professionalism than to the person who was stopped.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:38 PM
Ill openly admit that I've had a number of encounters with Portlands finest on more than one occasion. From speeding tickets, not fully stopping at a stop sign, texting while driving ticket, a MIP, and even jay walking. I deserved every single citation, scolding, and humiliating moment, and mixed in I've also been let off with warnings. In my mind at the time I felt like it was unfair but in retrospect I'm a dangerous person it seems.
My point is though is that I deserved each of those moments, but I can't in all honestly say that a black person would have had the same reasonable pleasant officer experiences in each of those moments. I'm white, young, not ugly, driving a nice car in a nice neighborhood. I meet the persona, the expectation, the stereotype if you will. Replace me with a black person and would the officer have treated that person equally? I don't know if they would. I'd like to think so, but there is that doubt, and if I have that doubt in certain a black person does. That needs to change.
Point taken. As a contemptuous prick I can tell you for sure that white skin won't win you any points or at least a pleasant disposition will do you much more good. I've too have been stopped plenty of times right around your age. I deserved some of those stops but not at all. Some were truly ridiculous.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:39 PM
That's a possibility and, as you say, it shouldn't happen.
Another thing that occurs is misogynistic officers that treat females poorly.
When those kinds of things happen, it really speaks more to the officer's lack of confidence and professionalism than to the person who was stopped.
Well thankfully the officers that I've dealt with were respectful and professional. They suck because they gave me tickets and got me in trouble with my parents but that comes with the territory.
AZ Jim
07-15-2016, 01:41 PM
Ill openly admit that I've had a number of encounters with Portlands finest on more than one occasion. From speeding tickets, not fully stopping at a stop sign, texting while driving ticket, a MIP, and even jay walking. I deserved every single citation, scolding, and humiliating moment, and mixed in I've also been let off with warnings. In my mind at the time I felt like it was unfair but in retrospect I'm a dangerous person it seems.
My point is though is that I deserved each of those moments, but I can't in all honesty say that a black person would have had the same reasonably pleasant officer experiences in each of those moments. I'm white, young, not ugly, driving a nice car in a nice neighborhood. I meet the persona, the expectation, the stereotype if you will. Replace me with a black person and would the officer have treated that person equally? I don't know if they would. I'd like to think so, but there is that doubt, and if I have that doubt im certain a black person does. That needs to change.Who says you're not ugly? I hope ya know I am just teasin' ya. PS When I was young, I had my license suspended for citations. It was almost like I had a cop in the back seat, ticket book in hand. I am not black, brown, yellow or white. I am kinda tan.....*lol
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:43 PM
Well thankfully the officers that I've dealt with were respectful and professional. They suck because they gave me tickets and got me in trouble with my parents but that comes with the territory.
Pretty young girls get preferential treatment. Sorry, that's a fact.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:46 PM
Pretty young girls get preferential treatment. Sorry, that's a fact.
I think simply being respectful and honest helps more but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't help many girls out there
Cigar
07-15-2016, 01:46 PM
I'm still amused by how incredulous some black people can be when they hear that whites actually get stopped by the police without having done anything.
I'm sure you would have never heard of a BLM movement if Black's were only getting traffic stops ... :rollseyes:
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:48 PM
I think simply being respectful and honest helps more but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't help many girls out there
Oh, it sure does. Some cops are grossly unprofessional in that respect.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 01:48 PM
I think simply being respectful and honest helps more but I'd be lying if I said it doesn't help many girls out there
... and again ... offering information and following instructions hasn't been enough.
Based on the facts ...
I think most Black People can't do anything about Officers being afraid.
Cletus
07-15-2016, 01:49 PM
What BLM actually means is "black lives matter too"
the racists see it as "black lives matter more"
Nonsense. If that was what it meant, that is what it would be. The name "Black Lives Matter" is divisive. If that was not intentional, whoever chose it is an idiot. If it was intentional it was highly successful. The vast majority of people already knew Black Lives Matter, but no more or less than the lives of anyone else.
People need to get over this whole race nonsense.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:49 PM
Who says you're not ugly? I hope ya know I am just teasin' ya. PS When I was young, I had my license suspended for citations. It was almost like I had a cop in the back seat, ticket book in hand. I am not black, brown, yellow or white. I am kinda tan.....*lol
its just my sense of humor
as for tickets the neighborhood in Portland that I grew up in is very hilly and has a lot of blind spots where cops like to hide to catch speeders or rolling stops. It's why I rode my bike to college instead.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:50 PM
its just my sense of humor
as for tickets the neighborhood in Portland that I grew up in is very hilly and has a lot of blind spots where cops like to hide to catch speeders or rolling stops. It's why I rode my bike to college instead.
Welcome to whiteyville. It's what they do.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 01:50 PM
... and again ... offering information and following instructions hasn't been enough.
Based on the facts ...
I think most Black People can't do anything about Officers being afraid.
i was talking about my experiences. See post 156 though.
Dr. Who
07-15-2016, 01:51 PM
Let's assume you're correct. Middle class black people get stopped disproportionately by the police than middle class whites. So what? How do we (rationally) go from that to a significant possibility of your children being gunned down by racist cops? What do we base that on? Statistics? What?
I don't think that parents dwell on statistical possibilities. I think that the issue is that they don't know how to completely avoid it. People all fear that something bad could happen to their kids, so they teach them to look both ways before crossing the road, they teach them not to hide under trees in a lightning storm, don't talk to strangers. There is a list. What makes this more frightening is the fact that teaching them to be as cooperative with police as possible might not be good enough if they meet the wrong cop on the wrong day. The fact that they are far more likely to attract police attention is what increases the fear particularly in cities which are known to have violent encounters between blacks and police.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:52 PM
i was talking about my experiences. See post 156 though.
You're dealing with someone who is racially hostile. Keep that in mind.
Cletus
07-15-2016, 01:53 PM
I don't think it has been established, for just like other subject areas, data is only accepted when it is clear of bias and agenda. Maybe we will see a white lives matters movement when videos of unarmed whites being killed by police are surfaced like we see with blacks. With whites being the majority, we should be seeing them any time now, right?
Do you think it doesn't happen?
Mister D
07-15-2016, 01:58 PM
I don't think that parents dwell on statistical possibilities.
I'll need to stop you right there. They should. My parents weren't up for nights before we went to the beach worried that I'd be attacked by a shark. Look both ways? You can easily be killed if you don't. Watch out for the cops because they're trigger happy racists just itching to kill a black child? Yeah, OK. :rollseyes: Who, this is just plain silly. Time and again I hear this story about how black parents are afraid for their children with regard to the police. Again, I get it when it comes to the inner city. Middle class black parents, however, could use a psychologist.
They attract more police attention in the inner city because they should.
FindersKeepers
07-15-2016, 01:59 PM
Well thankfully the officers that I've dealt with were respectful and professional. They suck because they gave me tickets and got me in trouble with my parents but that comes with the territory.
Just ease off that gas pedal...
It sucks that tickets add to your insurance rates.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:02 PM
I find it strange that white people do more drugs than black people, yet more black people are locked up for drugs per capita than whites.
To me that implies disproportionate arrests and unequal treatment in the criminal justice system.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 02:03 PM
Ill openly admit that I've had a number of encounters with Portlands finest on more than one occasion. From speeding tickets, not fully stopping at a stop sign, texting while driving ticket, a MIP, and even jay walking. I deserved every single citation, scolding, and humiliating moment, and mixed in I've also been let off with warnings. In my mind at the time I felt like it was unfair but in retrospect I'm a dangerous person it seems.
My point is though is that I deserved each of those moments, but I can't in all honesty say that a black person would have had the same reasonably pleasant officer experiences in each of those moments. I'm white, young, not ugly, driving a nice car in a nice neighborhood. I meet the persona, the expectation, the stereotype if you will. Replace me with a black person and would the officer have treated that person equally? I don't know if they would. I'd like to think so, but there is that doubt, and if I have that doubt im certain a black person does. That needs to change.
Funny ... I never really look at the color of the individual in that case. It's their attitude that usually overshadows first impressions.
Example: I HATE using Check-Out Scanners, and once I went to Home Depot and walked up to a Cashier to check-out. She walked me over 3 lane to show me how to use a Check-Out Scanner. I said why couldn't you check me out over their.
She said, in a snide remark, because we need to teach people how to use these "things".
I told her, I didn't come to Home Dept to learn anything ... I just wanted pay for these 4 Bolts ... :laugh: ... her Color had nothing to do with her attitude.
Black crime and police misconduct are two separate issues. Why can't idiots understand that?
I get it. Blacks murdering blacks is just misconduct.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:06 PM
I find it strange that white people do more drugs than black people, yet more black people are locked up for drugs per capita than whites.
To me that implies disproportionate arrests and unequal treatment in the criminal justice system.
That's because white neighborhoods aren't the drug trade's war zones. Back when crack came on the scene it was "racist" that the state wasn't doing anything to control the violence. So the state stepped in. Now who'd a thunk that mean to more black people in jail?
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:07 PM
I get it. Blacks murdering blacks is just misconduct.
There is a huge difference though. Police are paid to serve and protect the community, so they answer to that community. Private individuals are just that, individuals.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 02:09 PM
That's because white neighborhoods aren't the drug trade's war zones. Back when crack came on the scene it was "racist" that the state wasn't doing anything to control the violence. So the state stepped in. Now who'd a thunk that mean to more black people in jail?
Funny ... my Uncle is a Lack County Illinois Sharif ... he would disagree with your vast knowledge of white neighborhoods and the drug trade's war zones.
But please ... continue ... :laugh:
Chloe
07-15-2016, 02:11 PM
Drugs were a big problem in my high school which was mainly made up of whites and Asians but we did have some Hispanic and black too. It didn't seem to affect graduation rates though. In my defense the MIP I got in high school wasn't for drugs.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:12 PM
Funny ... my Uncle is a Lack County Illinois Sharif ... he would disagree with your vast knowledge of white neighborhoods and the drug trade's war zones.
But please ... continue ... :laugh:
1. Sorry, you lie so often I can't believe anything you say
2. The facts obviously dispute what your supposed uncle has to say which makes one think you have no such uncle.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:12 PM
Drugs were a big problem in my high school which was mainly made up of whites and Asians but we did have some Hispanic and black too. It didn't seem to affect graduation rates though. In my defense the MIP I got in high school wasn't for drugs.
But drug related homicides weren't.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:13 PM
Funny ... my Uncle is a Lack County Illinois Sharif ... he would disagree with your vast knowledge of white neighborhoods and the drug trade's war zones.
But please ... continue ... :laugh:
Please start using a browser with spell check. I'm not being a dick it just really detracts from the content.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 02:14 PM
But drug related homicides weren't.
That would be true at least in my case. I don't recall anybody ever dying from a drug related crime. I remember a couple of students overdosing and dying over a summer but that's it.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:15 PM
That would be true at least in my case. I don't recall anybody ever dying from a drug related crime. I remember a couple of students overdosing and dying over a summer but that's it.
That's true all over the country.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:17 PM
But drug related homicides weren't.
I would surmise that one reason for the relative lack of violence in white suburbia is because there is much more perceived economic opportunity, so people feel less compelled to involve themselves in the drug trade in any serious way. Of course, there is drug dealing, but few whites see it as their future career, so they aren't really willing to get violent over territory or customers. In certain black neighborhoods in the city, however, the drug trade is perceived as being one of the only routes to achieving a significant level of economic prosperity, so the stakes are perceived as being much higher. Granted, that is only one of the reasons, but I think it's a pretty significant one.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:17 PM
Please start using a browser with spell check. I'm not being a dick it just really detracts from the content.
He's on his phone because his white employer blocks this website. Maybe that's why he hates us so much. :grin:
Cigar
07-15-2016, 02:18 PM
Please start using a browser with spell check. I'm not being a dick it just really detracts from the content.
My apologies to anyone I offended :grin: ... I really should care more ... really :laugh:
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:19 PM
I would surmise that one reason for the relative lack of violence in white suburbia is because there is much more perceived economic opportunity, so people feel less compelled to involve themselves in the drug trade in any serious way. Of course, there is drug dealing, but few whites see it as their future career, so they aren't really willing to get violent over territory or customers. In certain black neighborhoods in the city, however, the drug trade is perceived as being one of the only routes to achieving a significant level of economic prosperity, so the stakes are perceived as being much higher. Granted, that is only one of the reasons, but I think it's a pretty significant one.
That may very well be true but it's also irrelevant. The impact the drug trade has on black and white communities is as different as night and day no pun intended.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 02:19 PM
My apologies to anyone I offended :grin: ... I really should care more ... really :laugh:
About your job? yeah...
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:21 PM
My apologies to anyone I offended :grin: ... I really should care more ... really :laugh:
I'm not offended...
Proper use of language ensures your message is understood.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 02:21 PM
He's on his phone because his white employer blocks this website. Maybe that's why he hates us so much. :grin:
You're pitching a perfect game ... it's too bad you're the only one in the Ball Park :laugh:
Chloe
07-15-2016, 02:23 PM
I would surmise that one reason for the relative lack of violence in white suburbia is because there is much more perceived economic opportunity, so people feel less compelled to involve themselves in the drug trade in any serious way. Of course, there is drug dealing, but few whites see it as their future career, so they aren't really willing to get violent over territory or customers. In certain black neighborhoods in the city, however, the drug trade is perceived as being one of the only routes to achieving a significant level of economic prosperity, so the stakes are perceived as being much higher. Granted, that is only one of the reasons, but I think it's a pretty significant one.
X2
the high school I went to is one of the best public schools in Oregon with a high graduation rate and a high college acceptance rate. I would easily say that 9/10 students knew they would have opportunity after graduation, even the ones that didn't give much effort or were considered druggies. Even if they failed they had a comfortable family life and support to fall back on.
not to get more personal, for some reason I'm in a sharing mood today, but I am currently working part time and living with my parents again after I recently quit my job I had at a zoo. There is no way I would have felt comfortable doing that without the knowledge of safety.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 02:24 PM
I'm not offended...
Proper use of language ensures your message is understood.
:thumbsup20: I agree ... but right now, Compiled Code on a Friday takes priority :laugh:
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:26 PM
Funny ... my Uncle is a Lack County Illinois Sharif ... he would disagree with your vast knowledge of white neighborhoods and the drug trade's war zones.
But please ... continue ... :laugh:
Virtually all the shootings in the Chicagoland area happen in Chicago's west and south sides. Suburbia has almost no shootings. We don't need your uncle to tell us that either. We can just look at publicly available data.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:32 PM
That may very well be true but it's also irrelevant. The impact the drug trade has on black and white communities is as different as night and day no pun intended.
True, but I would argue the political systems in those communities are as different as night and day as well, and that black communities in the inner-city are often the victims of systemic economic disenfranchisement.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 02:32 PM
:thumbsup20: I agree ... but right now, Compiled Code on a Friday takes priority :laugh:
I have a serious and sincere question for you please Cigar. Genuinely curious question I promise. You are clearly a successful African American, correct? What do you do on your free time to help poor African Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor African Americans in or near your community?
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:34 PM
X2
the high school I went to is one of the best public schools in Oregon with a high graduation rate and a high college acceptance rate. I would easily say that 9/10 students knew they would have opportunity after graduation, even the ones that didn't give much effort or were considered druggies. Even if they failed they had a comfortable family life and support to fall back on.
not to get more personal, for some reason I'm in a sharing mood today, but I am currently working part time and living with my parents again after I recently quit my job I had at a zoo. There is no way I would have felt comfortable doing that without the knowledge of safety.
I also grew up in a pretty affluent suburban community with good schools. Opportunity was just assumed.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:35 PM
I have a serious and sincere question for you please Cigar. Genuinely curious question I promise. You are clearly a successful African American, correct? What do you do on your free time to help poor African Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor African Americans in or near your community?
He will probably just respond with some inanity about back-to-black and then post a smiley face. You shouldn't waste your time trying to have a rational discussion with that guy.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:41 PM
Mister D does have a point about the role that drug-related violence plays in how police interact with certain communities. But I think we have to put that violence in its context in order to understand it.
For example, on average, blacks are more likely to receive harsher prison sentences than whites: ACLU - Racial Disparities in Sentencing (https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0. pdf)
So is it any wonder that black families are suffering from more social dysfunction when their families are more likely to be broken up and otherwise disrupted?
This might anger some of the more radical SJWs, but I think having a father figure in a family is very important, and the data seems to support that.
The drug war policies have sent millions of black fathers (and brothers, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, etc.) to prison. There is no way that is not going to result in significant levels of social dysfunction, including violence.
I firmly believe if we ended the war on drugs in America, around 80% of the social dysfunction in certain urban black communities would disappear within a decade.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:42 PM
Mister D does have a point about the role that drug-related violence plays in how police interact with certain communities. But I think we have to put that violence in its context in order to understand it.
For example, on average, blacks are more likely to receive harsher prison sentences than whites: ACLU - Racial Disparities in Sentencing (https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0. pdf)
So is it any wonder that black families are suffering from more social dysfunction when their families are more likely to be broken up and otherwise disrupted?
This might anger some of the more radical SJWs, but I think having a father figure in a family is very important, and the data seems to support that.
The drug war policies have sent millions of black fathers (and brothers, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, etc.) to prison. There is no way that is not going to result in significant levels of social dysfunction, including violence.
I firmly believe if we ended the war on drugs in America, around 80% of the social dysfunction in certain urban black communities would disappear within a decade.
It becomes a cycle that is very difficult to break.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 02:44 PM
Real improvement with race relations begins with children. Instead of African American parents bringing children to protest marches they should be bringing their kids up to police officers (white, Hispanic, Asian, black, it doesn't matter) and introducing their kids to them, have those kids shake hands, smile, and imprint in their head that the police aren't the enemy, and in turn the police will do the same. Bias and racism is learned. Reconciliation has to start somewhere and it won't be on a protest march in my opinion or in a jail or at a funeral.
And make sure their kids excel in school.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 02:44 PM
It becomes a cycle that is very difficult to break.
It's only difficult to break because the cycle is a product of institutionalized oppression.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 02:51 PM
I find it strange that white people do more drugs than black people, yet more black people are locked up for drugs per capita than whites.
To me that implies disproportionate arrests and unequal treatment in the criminal justice system.
The black community demanded harsher penalties for crack (http://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-black-leaders-once-championed-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/)because their communities were turned into war zones.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 02:53 PM
The black community demanded harsher penalties for crack (http://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-black-leaders-once-championed-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/)because their communities were turned into war zones.
Reactionary responses often have unforeseen consequences.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:00 PM
Reactionary responses often have unforeseen consequences.
I'm not sure how that can be described as reactionary but it's perfectly understandable in the context of a spirally homicide rate and increasingly dangerous streets.
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 03:01 PM
I'm not sure how that can be described as reactionary but it's perfectly understandable in the context of a spirally homicide rate and increasingly dangerous streets.
Reactionary in that it was a reaction to a problem.
It's true that something had to be done, but it's clear that it wasn't the right choice.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:02 PM
Mister D does have a point about the role that drug-related violence plays in how police interact with certain communities. But I think we have to put that violence in its context in order to understand it.
For example, on average, blacks are more likely to receive harsher prison sentences than whites: ACLU - Racial Disparities in Sentencing (https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0. pdf)
So is it any wonder that black families are suffering from more social dysfunction when their families are more likely to be broken up and otherwise disrupted?
This might anger some of the more radical SJWs, but I think having a father figure in a family is very important, and the data seems to support that.
The drug war policies have sent millions of black fathers (and brothers, cousins, uncles, grandfathers, etc.) to prison. There is no way that is not going to result in significant levels of social dysfunction, including violence.
I firmly believe if we ended the war on drugs in America, around 80% of the social dysfunction in certain urban black communities would disappear within a decade.
I would tie at least part of that disparity back into the violence engendered by the drug trade. I don't think they can be neatly separated.
That said, I tend to agree about the overall effects of drug policy.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:03 PM
Reactionary in that it was a reaction to a problem.
It's true that something had to be done, but it's clear that it wasn't the right choice.
People react to problems. I'm not sure I follow but it's not that important.
Under the circumstances, I don't know what else they really could have done.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 03:05 PM
X2
the high school I went to is one of the best public schools in Oregon with a high graduation rate and a high college acceptance rate. I would easily say that 9/10 students knew they would have opportunity after graduation, even the ones that didn't give much effort or were considered druggies. Even if they failed they had a comfortable family life and support to fall back on.
not to get more personal, for some reason I'm in a sharing mood today, but I am currently working part time and living with my parents again after I recently quit my job I had at a zoo. There is no way I would have felt comfortable doing that without the knowledge of safety.
Why did you leave the zoo?
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 03:06 PM
I have a serious and sincere question for you please Cigar. Genuinely curious question I promise. You are clearly a successful African American, correct? What do you do on your free time to help poor African Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor African Americans in or near your community?
Ask him if he has ever stepped foot in Africa. I am more "African" than he is.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 03:07 PM
Reactionary responses often have unforeseen consequences.
Of course. But the claims that the laws were made for racist reasons are false.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:09 PM
I have a serious and sincere question for you please Cigar. Genuinely curious question I promise. You are clearly a successful African American, correct? What do you do on your free time to help poor African Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor African Americans in or near your community?
Chloe, he's not a business owner. He's always posting on his phone because his employer blocks his access to this website. He lies a lot. That's not an insult. Just a fact. No one who spends Monday through Friday trolling a message board is doing well either financially or emotionally.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 03:09 PM
Why did you leave the zoo?
There were just some ethical things that I couldn't reconcile with as time went by. Some parts were fun and I learned a lot about animal behavior but I disagreed with a number of things and just couldn't keep being a part of it, and plus I really wanted to go back to something that applied more to my degree. I'm currently doing some canvassing work for an environmental organization, which isn't too bad, and so hopefully it helps open some doors. I'm not having to be up at 4am anymore which is good though.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 03:17 PM
There were just some ethical things that I couldn't reconcile with as time went by. Some parts were fun and I learned a lot about animal behavior but I disagreed with a number of things and just couldn't keep being a part of it, and plus I really wanted to go back to something that applied more to my degree. I'm currently doing some canvassing work for an environmental organization, which isn't too bad, and so hopefully it helps open some doors. I'm not having to be up at 4am anymore which is good though.
I am sort of at the point of saying zoos need to be closed.
Getting up early is good for you. :wink:
Chloe
07-15-2016, 03:20 PM
I am sort of at the point of saying zoos need to be closed.
Getting up early is good for you. :wink:
it's hard to tame the beast that is my hair at 4am. The zoo did do some good things, but some bad things too in my opinion. I want to be involved with and do good things for wildlife conservation, but not like that.
Chloe
07-15-2016, 03:21 PM
since I'm not working full time now it means I get to annoy you guys on here a little more for a while
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 03:23 PM
People react to problems. I'm not sure I follow but it's not that important.
Under the circumstances, I don't know what else they really could have done.
I'm sure there were and are better solutions than minimum mandatory sentences and making 1 gram of crack equal 100 grams of powder cocaine.
Drug prevention and community based solutions would have been more effective.
Cigar
07-15-2016, 03:25 PM
Reactionary in that it was a reaction to a problem.
It's true that something had to be done, but it's clear that it wasn't the right choice.
There's an entire science behind cause / effect, and the consequences of ignoring either or both.
It's why we buy insurance knowing we likely will never benefit from it.
Actuaries count on it.
Chris
07-15-2016, 03:25 PM
since I'm not working full time now it means I get to annoy you guys on here a little more for a while
Get a job!
Common Sense
07-15-2016, 03:25 PM
Get a job!
This generation...I tell ya.
;)
Chloe
07-15-2016, 03:28 PM
Get a job!
Technically I do have a job :). I go door to door advocating for different environmental initiatives that the organization wants me to focus on. Kindof like what I did in high school for the plastic ban.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:34 PM
I'm sure there were and are better solutions than minimum mandatory sentences and making 1 gram of crack equal 100 grams of powder cocaine.
Drug prevention and community based solutions would have been more effective.
Drug prevention and community based solutions would have been great long term ideas but the escalating violence needed to be addressed then not later. The homicide rate soared not only among black men but black teens. Teh state did all it knows how to do: cracks skulls and lock people up.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 03:36 PM
Then yo have to factor in the underlying economic trouble Ethereal mentioned.
The Xl
07-15-2016, 03:46 PM
BLM rubs a lot of otherwise supportive and sympathetic people the wrong way, because it comes across as hostile and divisive as opposed to pushing for harmony and equality. It doesn't help that they support some ridiculous cases and causes while ignoring legitimate ones.
Ethereal
07-15-2016, 04:58 PM
I would tie at least part of that disparity back into the violence engendered by the drug trade. I don't think they can be neatly separated.
That said, I tend to agree about the overall effects of drug policy.
Sounds like a "chicken or the egg" conundrum.
Peter1469
07-15-2016, 05:02 PM
it's hard to tame the beast that is my hair at 4am. The zoo did do some good things, but some bad things too in my opinion. I want to be involved with and do good things for wildlife conservation, but not like that.
I don't have the hair problem.
Mister D
07-15-2016, 05:29 PM
Sounds like a "chicken or the egg" conundrum.
To some extent, yes, I suppose it is. The crack cocaine laws, however, are a direct result of the mayhem the introduction of that drug led to.
Standing Wolf
07-16-2016, 12:52 PM
I would surmise that one reason for the relative lack of violence in white suburbia is because there is much more perceived economic opportunity, so people feel less compelled to involve themselves in the drug trade in any serious way. Of course, there is drug dealing, but few whites see it as their future career, so they aren't really willing to get violent over territory or customers. In certain black neighborhoods in the city, however, the drug trade is perceived as being one of the only routes to achieving a significant level of economic prosperity, so the stakes are perceived as being much higher. Granted, that is only one of the reasons, but I think it's a pretty significant one.
Unfortunately - to say the very least...maybe "tragically" is a better way to start - a great many Black kids, boys in particular, burn their bridges early, in terms of achievement later in life, by getting involved with drugs and gangs. Even if they survive and manage to get out of that life with a halfway decent attitude, many paths for them have been closed.
Standing Wolf
07-16-2016, 01:03 PM
Reactionary in that it was a reaction to a problem.
It's true that something had to be done, but it's clear that it wasn't the right choice.
A greater and more sustained police presence and harsher penalties are the logical choice is such situations. Unfortunately, when a community lobbies for and demands more cops, then lies to and stonewalls them when they arrive, vandalizes their patrol vehicles, insults and attacks them, and complains about the police being "an occupying force", the success of any such plan is going to be in jeopardy.
Standing Wolf
07-16-2016, 01:05 PM
Why did you leave the zoo?
Somebody left the cage unlocked and she just made a break for it? :grin:
Mister D
07-16-2016, 04:45 PM
A greater and more sustained police presence and harsher penalties are the logical choice is such situations. Unfortunately, when a community lobbies for and demands more cops, then lies to and stonewalls them when they arrive, vandalizes their patrol vehicles, insults and attacks them, and complains about the police being "an occupying force", the success of any such plan is going to be in jeopardy.
Yes, at least in the short term. The violence engendered by the drug trade, particularly with respect to crack cocaine, had to be dealt with immediately. I also agree that a bad attitude toward law enforcement does not help matters. OTOH, I will definitely concede that the underlying economic and cultural problems need long term solutions and a greater police presence will only aggravate those problems in the end. I can certainly understand why urban blacks feel like they're under siege. The decent majority are caught between scum bags and cynical, desensitized cops who sometimes treat the residents like they're all prospective criminals.
Chloe
07-17-2016, 03:34 PM
I have a serious and sincere question for you please Cigar. Genuinely curious question I promise. You are clearly a successful African American, correct? What do you do on your free time to help poor African Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor African Americans in or near your community?
Cigar
Ethereal
07-17-2016, 03:35 PM
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294)
Back-to-black!
:laugh:
Cigar
07-18-2016, 07:17 AM
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294)
What do I do ... ? Chloe
In my free time I ... like I assume you do, don't commit crimes, join gangs or do drugs.
I far better to walk the walk that talk on Political Forums ... don't you think?
What do you do on your free time to help poor White Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor White Americans in or near your community?
Chloe
07-18-2016, 09:17 AM
What do I do ... ? @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)
In my free time I ... like I assume you do, don't commit crimes, join gangs or do drugs.
I far better to walk the walk that talk on Political Forums ... don't you think?
What do you do on your free time to help poor White Americans get out of poverty, a life of crime in a gang or selling drugs, and things like that? What do you do to be the example for young, poor White Americans in or near your community?
Not committing crimes, joining gangs, or doing drugs in your free time is not an accomplishment it's the expectation for the vast majority of people of all races and financial status. You often times make it known on here of your African American pride and your pride for the Democratic Party platform. If you were a humble person I could assume you don't want to answer my question because you don't want to brag about what you do on your free time in the community since it's not about you, but you aren't a humble person, you are a braggart of your financial success and lifestyle as often mentioned on here, so what other reason would there be for not giving an honest answer to a sincere question? Would it be that you don't do anything for young black people near your community? Is it because while you publicly state your passion for a progressive agenda, which includes helping those less fortunate, it's just a talking point to yap about while playing golf? Are you stalling by answering my question with a question to give you time to make up a lie about all of the things you do over your fun filled weekends you so often mention? Or are you just full of it?
We can all do more for those less fortunate. We could all do more for people that share our race, our religion, our interests. If you know that you don't do enough, or nothing at all, it's ok to admit it, I know that I could do more today than I once did in high school and in college, but just have the courage to say it, that's all.
Cigar
07-18-2016, 09:30 AM
Not committing crimes, joining gangs, or doing drugs in your free time is not an accomplishment it's the expectation for the vast majority of people of all races and financial status. You often times make it known on here of your African American pride and your pride for the Democratic Party platform. If you were a humble person I could assume you don't want to answer my question because you don't want to brag about what you do on your free time in the community since it's not about you, but you aren't a humble person, you are a braggart of your financial success and lifestyle as often mentioned on here, so what other reason would there be for not giving an honest answer to a sincere question? Would it be that you don't do anything for young black people near your community? Is it because while you publicly state your passion for a progressive agenda, which includes helping those less fortunate, it's just a talking point to yap about while playing golf? Are you stalling by answering my question with a question to give you time to make up a lie about all of the things you do over your fun filled weekends you so often mention? Or are you just full of it?
We can all do more for those less fortunate. We could all do more for people that share our race, our religion, our interests. If you know that you don't do enough, or nothing at all, it's ok to admit it, I know that I could do more today than I once did in high school and in college, but just have the courage to say it, that's all.
I've said on this forum many times before ... I volunteer my time to a Children's Charity (5 - 16 yo) and Mentorship program for sports and technology. I don't volunteer my time to just one color of people, poor os poor, underprivileged is underprivileged. Yes ... I'm very proud of what I've done, I've worked hard for it and I don't mind patting myself on the back for for my part in our organization success. If that's a problem for anyone, too bad, it's their problem not mine. Why would I do thinks just for Black People? People of all walks of life have help me, so why would I limit the return?
Chloe
07-18-2016, 09:43 AM
I've said on this forum many times before ... I volunteer my time to a Children's Charity (5 - 16 yo) and Mentorship program for sports and technology. I don't volunteer my time to just one color of people, poor os poor, underprivileged is underprivileged. Yes ... I'm very proud of what I've done, I've worked hard for it and I don't mind patting myself on the back for for my part in our organization success. If that's a problem for anyone, too bad, it's their problem not mine. Why would I do thinks just for Black People? People of all walks of life have help me, so why would I limit the return?
A young black child is statistically less likely to be as successful as a young white child. You are a successful black man that posts topics and issues that typically focus on either an African American president or African American causes. The question for you was that since you are a successful African American and since your primary passion, at least based on your own words/threads, centers on the African American experience, what do you do to be the example to those young impressionable African American children currently choosing between joining a gang or selling drugs as an income besides waking up in the morning in a nice house? What's your past experience with those inner city situations? Were you raised with those bleak choices but somehow broke out and became successful or were you raised in a normal home in the suburbs? How did you break out and do you mentor young African American kids to do the same by emulating your experience so that African Americans continue to succeed and break stereotypes? That's the underlying question that you are avoiding answering. You obviously don't have to answer but it would certainly give a lot of insight into your posts on here.
Cigar
07-18-2016, 09:50 AM
A young black child is statistically less likely to be as successful as a young white child. You are a successful black man that posts topics and issues that typically focus on either an African American president or African American causes. The question for you was that since you are a successful African American and since your primary passion, at least based on your own words/threads, centers on the African American experience, what do you do to be the example to those young impressionable African American children currently choosing between joining a gang or selling drugs as an income besides waking up in the morning in a nice house? What's your past experience with those inner city situations? Were you raised with those bleak choices but somehow broke out and became successful or were you raised in a normal home in the suburbs? How did you break out and do you mentor young African American kids to do the same by emulating your experience so that African Americans continue to succeed and break stereotypes? That's the underlying question that you are avoiding answering. You obviously don't have to answer but it would certainly give a lot of insight into your posts on here.
I get to kill two birds with one stone ... I help children of all types and they get to see the impacts of that from the perspectives of multiple cultures. A room full of Black Kids with a Black Mentor doesn't teach them what they really need to learn in life, engagement, interactions, communication and a perspective with all walks of life.
Their world isn't just Black or White, it's Black, White, Brown and becoming more, not less diverse each day. Segregation is what is contributing to our citizens ignorance of each other.
Chloe
07-18-2016, 10:40 AM
I get to kill two birds with one stone ... I help children of all types and they get to see the impacts of that from the perspectives of multiple cultures. A room full of Black Kids with a Black Mentor doesn't teach them what they really need to learn in life, engagement, interactions, communication and a perspective with all walks of life.
Their world isn't just Black or White, it's Black, White, Brown and becoming more, not less diverse each day. Segregation is what is contributing to our citizens ignorance of each other.
Im not stupid, and even though I rarely respond to you I do read a lot of your comments. Vague platitudes is not an answer. You hardly have the credibility based on the thousands of posts you have made to start talking about a world that isn't just black, white, brown and so on. Most of your threads focus on African American causes and interests and your defense of BLM is also quite obvious, so spare me the rhetoric please. It would be one thing if you advocated for colorless equality often and praise/condemn actions from all races, but you don't. It would be one thing if you advocated that all lives matter as you probably mistakenly advocated above, but you don't. If you did those things then I'd take your answer with far more credibility and sincerity, but you don't.
The simple answer is that you are a successful African American that does not seek out young African Americans to mentor with hopes of getting them out of bad situations so they can emulate your experience. I'm not going to fault you or shame you for your volunteer work since that's great and I hope you continue, but the fact that you can't be honest from the start is frankly annoying and the fact that your version of walking the walk is just being what's expected of everybody instead of you waling the walk of your words by giving back to the black community that you so adamantly defend on here shows your lack of credibility and sincerity over the issues you bring up regarding the African American experience. It is what it is and you can do what you want, but my respect for you continues to decline (not that my opinion or respect should matter but it's just my opinion).
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 10:47 AM
Funny ... I never really look at the color of the individual in that case. It's their attitude that usually overshadows first impressions.
Example: I HATE using Check-Out Scanners, and once I went to Home Depot and walked up to a Cashier to check-out. She walked me over 3lane to show me how to use a Check-Out Scanner. I said why couldn't you check me out over their.
She said, in a snide remark, because we need to teach people how to use these "things".
I told her, I didn't come to Home Dept to learn anything ... I just wanted pay for these 4 Bolts ... :laugh: ... her Color had nothing to do with her attitude.
The reason for self-check out is the rising minimum wage driven by leftists. Self-check out does not cost 15 dollars per hour. Expect to see more places moving to self-check out. I would not be surprised to see a complete RFID replacement for all checkout actions.
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 10:51 AM
Black crime and police misconduct are two separate issues. Why can't idiots understand that?
When was the last time that police involved shootings were not investigated?
When was the last time that police misconduct occurred where the officer was not charged?
Why do you relish your lying narrative? At least be honest with yourself. I doubt you can be honest with us.
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 10:59 AM
We also know that blacks face more abuse, not lethal, just physical and verbal abuse, from officers, so we know there IS an issue. Just not the one BLM is hyping.
So, I have to ask -- what is the point?
What is the plan?
What is it they want, and will they be happy if they get it?
In short -- what has to happen for this to go away?
You are asking a strategic question.
What goal is the President, Sharpton, and agitation groups they use, like BLM, pursuing?
We know the means. Agitate. Get patsies to murder police, white police if possible, but any police officer will do. It does not take very many. One attack per week will be fine as long as the number of dead and injured rise week by week.
Is the president using this as a diversion so other, more nefarious actions go undocumented?
Or is his goal to have the people demand that he take action without thinking about the President's end game?
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 11:06 AM
As was articulated last night on CNN'S "Black, White and Blue: America 2016' town hall on a nation divided" by a black member of the studio audience and I am paraphrasing, it is a given that white lives matter. No one has ever thought otherwise. However, there is a perception, rightly or wrongly, among a very large number of black and brown people that their lives don't matter as much.
If black lives matter to blacks wouldn't black fathers be part of every black child's life from the beginning? If black lives matter to blacks wouldn't the black on black crime rates for all crimes be decreasing rather than increasing?
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 11:10 AM
Perception is everything. On that same town hall there were at least two middle to upper middle class black professionals who admitted to being terrified of being stopped by the police and terrified of the police stopping their children. Now these people are not living in gang banger central, so they are not afraid of bad elements killing themselves or their children, they are afraid of making an inadvertent false movement if stopped by the cops and ending up dead. They want some assurance that if they do everything right, that they won't be shot and killed.
Did the narrator ask how they came to their perceptions?
There was a time when, very long ago, Roman mothers would tell their children that if they were not good, "Hannibal would get them." Of course, Hannibal was long dead. The children still believed.
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 11:15 AM
I don't have a problem with black history month. The US has had a fairly unique experience and black people have indeed been left behind. I see no issue with trying to be inclusive and making an effort to look at a little known history that has been largely ignored. If that makes people racist, then they were already racist.
A few things. Nearly all of history is largely ignored. What should history's purpose be? Should it be used to explain why we are extraordinary in all of history? Or should it be used by some to divide us into little groups so we can be more easily defeated?
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 11:20 AM
Because we sort of only have two options as to why.
Option one is that poverty and resulting crime is a product of a long history of subjugation, dehumanization, emancipation yet continued oppression. Followed by a gradual lessening of racist attitudes/treatment and partial cultural acceptance, but a lingering subtle segregation that results in an economic disparity. All of this creating a cycle of poverty, lack of education, resulting increased drug use and associated crime. All creating a self perpetuating scenario that continues to escalate even while some blacks succeed and many enter the other cycle of the criminal justice system.
Option two is believed by some and it is that blacks are racially inferior.
I believe option one. I'm not saying you believe option two, but the question remains, why is the black community in such trouble?
There is a simple rule that appears to prevent poverty for anyone who follows it.
Four Part RULE for avoiding poverty
1) Finish high school
2) Get a job
3) Get married
4) Then have children.
Note: The order is important.
MisterVeritis
07-18-2016, 11:24 AM
I agree with that. While some on the right put a huge portion of the blame on those trying to help solve the problem, they do have a valid criticism of the left's good intentions gone wrong. I think welfare has the potential to help perpetuate a cycle of poverty, but it has helped many. The housing on the other hand was executed so poorly and certainly didn't help blacks and other poor people become good citizens. It ties in again with the fact that these issues are cycles and it's very hard to break them.
Welfare programs mostly benefit the growth of government.
It might be better to put everyone on welfare into the Army instead.
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