Indonesia guilty of genocide; US, UK complicit

[Ethereal]

Tribunal finds Indonesia guilty of 1965 genocide; US, UK complicit (http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/asia/indonesia-genocide-panel/)

By Juliet Perry
Updated 3:47 AM ET, Thu July 21, 2016

(CNN) - An international panel of judges has concluded that Indonesia's mass killings of 1965 were crimes against humanity, and that the United States, United Kingdom and Australia were all complicit in the crimes.

Their report estimates that 400,000 to 500,000 people -- believed associated with the communist party, were killed by military deaths squads, but indicates that official secrecy around these numbers makes the actual figure hard to gauge.

...

Complicity and a failed coup

The report also states that the United States of America, the United Kingdom and Australia were fully aware of what was taking place in Indonesia and were complicit to varying degrees.

According to the judges, the US supported the Indonesian military "knowing well that they were embarked upon a programme of mass killings," and the UK and Australia repeated false propaganda from the Indonesian army, even after it became "abundantly clear that killings and other crimes against humanity were taking place."

...

Just remember, they hate us for our freedom.

[del]

they were suicides, like allende

[Tahuyaman]

Was Indonesia a predominately Islamic nation then?

[Private Pickle]

Just remember, they hate us for our freedom.

It took them 51 years? Huh...

[Dr. Who]

It took them 51 years? Huh...
Official Secrets Act expired?

[Mac-7]

Just remember, they hate us for our freedom.

Politics in Asia aint beanbag.

if the communists had taken over they would have murdered just as many if not more.

[Private Pickle]

Official Secrets Act expired?

/shrug I suppose the point is...it was 51 years ago... Oh that and Indonesians really don't hate us....

[donttread]

Just remember, they hate us for our freedom.

There ain't no good dogs in these fights so those who support arming, backing anf helping nations and factions do so knowing that they support tyranny and murder

[Ethereal]

/shrug I suppose the point is...it was 51 years ago... Oh that and Indonesians really don't hate us....

Most of the Indonesians who were predisposed towards disliking us were slaughtered.

[Private Pickle]

Most of the Indonesians who were predisposed towards disliking us were slaughtered.

Right. Which is why they don't hate us.

[Ethereal]

Right. Which is why they don't hate us.

Even if that were true, it wouldn't justify genocide.

But America has completely lost its moral compass, so I'm not surprised that people are trying to brush aside the murder of hundreds of thousands of people like it's no big deal.

What used to be a country guided by its Christian morality is now a bloody empire like Rome.

[Private Pickle]

Even if that were true, it wouldn't justify genocide.

But America has completely lost its moral compass, so I'm not surprised that people are trying to brush aside the murder of hundreds of thousands of people like it's no big deal.

What used to be a country guided by its Christian morality is now a bloody empire like Rome.

Well in fairness the fall of the Roman Empire can be directly connected to its Christian conversion.

Anyway, your premise is flawed.

[Ethereal]

Well in fairness the fall of the Roman Empire can be directly connected to its Christian conversion.

Not really. They militarily overextended and had a deeply flawed economic system. Christianity was merely incidental. The fact that the USA became the most powerful country in the history of the world as a Christian nation proves that Christianity does not in any way prevent a country from prospering.


Anyway, your premise is flawed.

The premise is just a generalization, not specific to Indonesia.

But even if it were specific to Indonesia, there are still plenty of people living in Indonesia who do indeed hate the USA.

The simple fact is that the US government is complicit in or directly culpable for the deaths of millions of people, and that is the number one reason why people hate the USA. It has nothing to do with the nonexistent freedoms we enjoy.

[Mac-7]

The simple fact is that the US government is complicit in or directly culpable for the deaths of millions of people, and that is the number one reason why people hate the USA. It has nothing to do with the nonexistent freedoms we enjoy.

Would it do any good to remind you thst the US did not kill anyone in Indonesia?

Probably not.

[donttread]

Just remember, they hate us for our freedom.

Our definition of a war crime is something the other side did. We have fire bombed and nuked kids , killed twenty people in drone strikes in allied territory to get one guy , and held people at GITMO for a decade or more without any charges. Yet these things are NOT war crimes because we did them

[Common]

Its safe to say that the US has been involved in alot of things in alot of places since WW1

Im betting most of it was Capitalist Opportunism based

[Private Pickle]

Not really. They militarily overextended and had a deeply flawed economic system. Christianity was merely incidental. The fact that the USA became the most powerful country in the history of the world as a Christian nation proves that Christianity does not in any way prevent a country from prospering.

While the United States may base it's moral code and as such it's laws on Christian values, this is not a Christian country nor has it ever been.



The premise is just a generalization, not specific to Indonesia.

But even if it were specific to Indonesia, there are still plenty of people living in Indonesia who do indeed hate the USA.

The simple fact is that the US government is complicit in or directly culpable for the deaths of millions of people, and that is the number one reason why people hate the USA. It has nothing to do with the nonexistent freedoms we enjoy.[/QUOTE]

[Private Pickle]

Its safe to say that the US has been involved in alot of things in alot of places since WW1

Im betting most of it was Capitalist Opportunism based

The same can be said for any country and their ideology.

[Adelaide]

The same can be said for any country and their ideology.

Er... not in recent history, (post-WWI/WWII). The US has been exceptional for sticking a nose in where it doesn't belong in the name of "spreading democracy". The hundreds of thousands that have been murdered or just gone missing are easy to forget about, I guess. Doesn't really surprise me about Indonesia when you consider the US in Central America.

Democracy isn't the greatest US export - death is.

[Private Pickle]

Er... not in recent history, (post-WWI/WWII). The US has been exceptional for sticking a nose in where it doesn't belong in the name of "spreading democracy". The hundreds of thousands that have been murdered or just gone missing are easy to forget about, I guess. Doesn't really surprise me about Indonesia when you consider the US in Central America.

Democracy isn't the greatest US export - death is.

You think we were just "exporting Democracy"? We were reacting to the exportation of Communism.

[Ethereal]

Politics in Asia aint beanbag.

if the communists had taken over they would have murdered just as many if not more.

Mac approves of genocide.

Noted.

[Ethereal]

You think we were just "exporting Democracy"? We were reacting to the exportation of Communism.

We had no choice to kill all those people because the commies!

[Ethereal]

Would it do any good to remind you thst the US did not kill anyone in Indonesia?

Probably not.


Complicit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complicit) - helping to commit a crime or do wrong in some way.

Let me know if you need help with other words. I'm happy to be of assistance.

[Mac-7]

Our definition of a war crime is something the other side did. We have fire bombed and nuked kids , killed twenty people in drone strikes in allied territory to get one guy , and held people at GITMO for a decade or more without any charges. Yet these things are NOT war crimes because we did them

Firebombing shortened the war and saved American lives

Nuking japan saved American and Japanese lives

[Mac-7]

Let me know if you need help with other words. I'm happy to be of assistance.

The US UK and Aussies did not kill anyone in indonesia

Let me know when you figure out which side you're on

[Private Pickle]

We had no choice to kill all those people because the commies!

Creating Communist threats close to home is what the Russians did. You can blame them just as much as us...the fact is, the Cold War was a war...we just happened to avoid the nukes.

[Mac-7]

Mac approves of genocide.

Noted.

That's strong language coming from a potential cop killer

If the Indonesians felt the need to kill Indonesian communists it's no concern of mine

But Internet tough guys killing innocent cops in America does concern me

[Ethereal]

The US UK and Aussies did not kill anyone in indonesia

They were complicit.


Let me know when you figure out which side you're on

No need. I already know what side I'm on...

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
--Thomas Paine

[Ethereal]

That's strong language coming from a potential cop killer

If the Indonesians felt the need to kill Indonesian communists it's no concern of mine

But Internet tough guys killing innocent cops in America does concern me

You approve of genocide and want to whitewash the US government's complicity in it. No need to repeat yourself.

[Ethereal]

Mac, stop crying about your cop-love. Nobody is interested. Just stick to your genocide apologia.

[Mac-7]

You approve of genocide and want to whitewash the US government's complicity in it. No need to repeat yourself.

And you want to kill cops who get in the way of what you call your freedom

So I don't need lessons in morality from you

[Ethereal]

And you want to kill cops who get in the way of what you call your freedom

So I don't need lessons in morality from you

I don't want to kill anyone, unlike you.

But I will defend my rights if necessary, just like the founding fathers did.

In any case, you're going off topic because you have no argument. If you want to start a thread about worshiping government agents, then go start one. This thread is about the genocide in Indonesia and the complicity of western governments in it. I'll only warn you once before I start reporting you for off-topic posting.

[donttread]

And you want to kill cops who get in the way of what you call your freedom

So I don't need lessons in morality from you

Wow E, I read most of your post and I don't remember the one where you wanted to kill cops. Can you produce that Mac?

[William]

Would it do any good to remind you thst the US did not kill anyone in Indonesia?

Probably not.

Umm, I don't think Ethereal said that US agents did the actual killings - he said the US was complicit, and that Australia and the UK did nothing about it, even though they knew.


However, investigations by journalists, as well as government documents, have made it clear that the United States provided money, weapons, and equipment to the Indonesian military while it was undertaking the killings. What's more, according to excerpts of contemporary cables released by the US State Department, officials at the US embassy created lists of thousands of names of communists and provided them to the military. It has been reported that the CIA worked on the lists, too, but the agency has denied involvement, Harsono says.

How was the genocide covered by the US press? "It was presented in the American media as good news," says Joshua Oppenheimer, a filmmaker who has spent the past 12 years investigating the mass murders and producing two award-winning documentaries about them. He cites a 1966 story in Time magazine that said the killings were the "best news for years in Asia.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/09/its-been-50-years-biggest-us-backed-genocide-youve-never-heard


US diplomats and CIA officers, including the former US ambassador to Indonesia and Australia, Marshall Green, subsequently admitted working hand-in-glove with Suharto and his butchers in carrying through the massacres. They personally provided the names of thousands of PKI members from CIA files for the death lists.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/07/indo-j07.html


Further evidence for this funding has been substantiated by a cable that was sent from Ambassador Marshall Green (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Green), after meeting with CIA's Hugh Tovar (http://www.newsweek.com/hugh-tovar-cia-indonesia-348472), to the assistant secretary of state Bill Bundy, one advocating for payments to be sent to anti-communist fighter Adam Malik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Malik):


This is to confirm my earlier concurrence that we provide Malik with fifty million ruphias [about $10,000] for the activities of the Kap-Gestapu movement. The army-inspired but civilian-staffed group is still carrying burden of current repressive efforts...Our willingness to assist him in this manner will, I think, represent in Malik's mind our endorsement of his present role in the army's anti-PKI efforts, and will promote good cooperating relations between him and the army. The chances of detection or subsequent revelation of our support in this instance are as minimal as any black flag operation can be.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia#cite_note-19)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia

[kcvet]

maybe pol pot escaped

[William]

maybe pol pot escaped

Interesting that you mention Pol Pot ...


During the three years and eight months they held power, Pol Pot and his medievalists may have put to death a third of the nation. It is all too easy and too dangerous to remember Pol Pot as a unique monster. What is remarkable about the US. coverage of his death is the omission of U.S. complicity in his rise to power ...

To hear Henry Kissinger deny recently that the United States and especially the Nixon Administration bore any responsibility for Cambodia's horror was to hear truth denigrated and our intelligence insulted. For Cambodia's nightmare did not begin with Year Zero but on the eve of the U.S. land invasion of neutral Cambodia in 1970.

What Kissinger and Nixon began, Pol Pot completed. Had the United States and China allowed it, Cambodia's suffering could have stopped when the Vietnamese finally responded to years of Khmer Rouge attacks across their border and liberated the country in January 1979. But almost immediately the United States began secretly backing Pol Pot in exile. Direct contact was made between the Reagan White House and the Khmer Rouge when Dr. Ray Cline, a former deputy director of the C.I.A., made a clandestine visit to Pol Pot's operational base inside Cambodia in November 1980. Cline was then a foreign policy adviser to President-elect Reagan. Within a year some fifty C.I.A. and other intelligence agents were running Washington's secret war against Cambodia from the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok and along the Thai-Cambodian border.

If the US. bombing was the first phase of Cambodia's holocaust and Pol Pot's Year Zero the second, the third phase was the use of the United Nations by Washington, its allies and China as the instrument of Cambodia's, and Vietnam's, punishment. With Vietnamese troops preventing the return of the Khmer Rouge and a Hanoi-installed regime in Phnom Penh, a UN. embargo barred Cambodia from all international agreements on trade and communications, even from the World Health Organization. The U.N. withheld development aid from only one Third World country: Cambodia, which lay unreconstituted from the years of bombing and neglect. For the United States the blockade was total. Not even Cuba and the Soviet Union were treated this way.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/190/39190.html

[kcvet]

Interesting that you mention Pol Pot ...


https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/190/39190.html

made an really good flick about this. the killing fields

[Mac-7]

I don't want to kill anyone, unlike you.

But I will defend my rights if necessary, just like the founding fathers did.

In any case, you're going off topic because you have no argument. If you want to start a thread about worshiping government agents, then go start one. This thread is about the genocide in Indonesia and the complicity of western governments in it. I'll only warn you once before I start reporting you for off-topic posting.

Uh-huh.

I asked if that means killing innocent cops who come to take your illegal drugs and guns and you cannot deny it.

[Mac-7]

Umm, I don't think Ethereal said that US agents did the actual killings - he said the US was complicit, and that Australia and the UK did nothing about it, even though they knew.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/09/its-been-50-years-biggest-us-backed-genocide-youve-never-heard


https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/07/indo-j07.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia

Since the territory you reside in was also mentioned I suppose you are entitled make a few comments about it.

all I can tell you is that the communist movement has murdered far more innocent non-communists in other countries and was quite capable of killing that many in indonesia.

it was good riddance

[Mac-7]

made an really good flick about this. the killing fields

Young William has been raised to believe that our side is always wrong

[Mini Me]

Even if that were true, it wouldn't justify genocide.

But America has completely lost its moral compass, so I'm not surprised that people are trying to brush aside the murder of hundreds of thousands of people like it's no big deal.

We have a history of supporting RW military Dictatorships! And overthrowing duly elected regimes!

What used to be a country guided by its Christian morality is now a bloody empire like Rome.

[Mini Me]

Interesting that you mention Pol Pot ...


https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/190/39190.html


Colonel Kurtz was INSANE! "The horror, the horror!"

[William]

Young William has been raised to believe that our side is always wrong

No, I have been raised to believe facts when they are proven. Just cos my country (or my side as you call it) does something - that doesn't make it right. My dad is a barrister, and he always says wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. You have to look at all the evidence that is available before you reach a conclusion - even if that conclusion is something or someone you love has done something wrong. My country (Britain in this case) has done loads of wrong things in its 2,000 year history, and any pride in the things it has done right doesn't change the wrong things - one of those was ignoring the CIA assisted Indonesian massacres. Britain and the USA are great friends and we should have spoken out against what the USA was involved with. Like whose advice would you take? A friend's or an enemy's? We should be ashamed.

[Ethereal]

Uh-huh.

I asked if that means killing innocent cops who come to take your illegal drugs and guns and you cannot deny it.

Illegal guns?

Try reading the second amendment. It's the LAW.

And when you're done reading that, start filling out your application to become a member of the Democrat party.

It's where a big government-loving social engineer like you belongs.

[Mac-7]

No, I have been raised to believe facts when they are proven. Just cos my country (or my side as you call it) does something - that doesn't make it right. My dad is a barrister, and he always says wanting something to be true doesn't make it so. You have to look at all the evidence that is available before you reach a conclusion - even if that conclusion is something or someone you love has done something wrong. My country (Britain in this case) has done loads of wrong things in its 2,000 year history, and any pride in the things it has done right doesn't change the wrong things - one of those was ignoring the CIA assisted Indonesian massacres. Britain and the USA are great friends and we should have spoken out against what the USA was involved with. Like whose advice would you take? A friend's or an enemy's? We should be ashamed.

Again.

the struggle between the communist movement and the free world was life or death.

our life or their death.

It was not clean or pretty

but the alternative was communist domination of the world.

[Mac-7]

Illegal guns?

Try reading the second amendment. It's the LAW.



Its the law only until you vote for some third party pothead which leads to hillary in the white house and enough liberal sc judges to fundimentally gut the 2nd Amendment.

then you will have to kill innocent cops to protect your guns and your illegal drug stash

[Ethereal]

Again.

the struggle between the communist movement and the free world was life or death.

our life or their death.

It was not clean or pretty

but the alternative was communist domination of the world.

Hysterical nonsense.

It wouldn't matter if every country on the planet became communist during the cold war, the USA would have remained unchallenged and untouchable because of its nuclear arsenal and its immense wealth.

And it's not like the USA is some kind of bastion of freedom. Socialism began infecting the country long before the cold war.

1913 was the year of the progressive income tax and the central bank, both planks of communism.

Then came FDR's socialist dictatorship where he shredded the constitution.

So the war against communism was a farce on multiple levels.

[Ethereal]

Its the law only until you vote for some third party pothead which leads to hillary in the white house and enough liberal sc judges to fundimentally gut the 2nd Amendment.

then you will have to kill innocent cops to protect your guns and your illegsl drug stash

Judges cannot change the constitution. Only a stupid America-hating libtard would believe something like that.

[Mac-7]

Judges cannot change the constitution. Only a stupid America-hating libtard would believe something like that.

Boy are you in for a surprise.

The Constitution means whatever 5 unelected liberal demigods on the high court say it means

so your gun rights can disappear after hillary takes office

[Ethereal]

Boy are you in for a surprise.

The Constitution means whatever 5 unelected liberal demigods on the high court say it means

so your gun rights can disappear tomorrow.

Why don't you just join the Democrat party already? You think exactly like them on a wide range of important issues.

[Dr. Who]

Just a reminder that the topic is Indonesian genocide, not American politics.

[Peter1469]

Its the law only until you vote for some third party pothead which leads to hillary in the white house and enough liberal sc judges to fundimentally gut the 2nd Amendment.

then you will have to kill innocent cops to protect your guns and your illegal drug stash


Warning: discuss the topic, not each other.