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Docthehun
08-10-2016, 11:38 PM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

Newpublius
08-10-2016, 11:43 PM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

One thing to remember is that the fiscal issue, as a math problem, is ridiculously easy to solve. As a political issue, basically impossible.

Nothing done should be drastic anything should always be phased in. I would freeze nominal spending and decrease military spending by 5% per year

Ethereal
08-10-2016, 11:44 PM
First I will need my own harem. If I'm going to fix this mess, I need time to relax and enjoy myself.

But seriously... as someone from Illinois, I would strongly recommend several measures.

One, I would legalize and tax recreational marijuana.

Two, I would insist on reforming the relationship between the political system and public sector unions. They are gobbling up insane amounts of tax money in return for average services at best.

Three, I would categorically reject any increases in taxes. Illinois is already one of the most heavily taxed states in the country which is hurting its desirability as a place to live and work.

I know I'm out of here as soon as I can afford to leave.

Bethere
08-10-2016, 11:52 PM
One thing to remember is that the fiscal issue, as a math problem, is ridiculously easy to solve. As a political issue, basically impossible.

Nothing done should be drastic anything should always be phased in. I would freeze nominal spending and decrease military spending by 5% per year

Dude. Illinois has no military budget.

Docthehun
08-10-2016, 11:53 PM
First I will need my own harem. If I'm going to fix this mess, I need time to relax and enjoy myself.

But seriously... as someone from Illinois, I would strongly recommend several measures.

One, I would legalize and tax recreational marijuana.

Two, I would insist on reforming the relationship between the political system and public sector unions. They are gobbling up insane amounts of tax money in return for average services at best.

Three, I would categorically reject any increases in taxes. Illinois is already one of the most heavily taxed states in the country which is hurting its desirability as a place to live and work.

I know I'm out of here as soon as I can afford to leave.

If you don't raise taxes (excluding the recreational pot tax); how would you pay the benefits?

Bethere
08-10-2016, 11:54 PM
First I will need my own harem. If I'm going to fix this mess, I need time to relax and enjoy myself.

But seriously... as someone from Illinois, I would strongly recommend several measures.

One, I would legalize and tax recreational marijuana.

Two, I would insist on reforming the relationship between the political system and public sector unions. They are gobbling up insane amounts of tax money in return for average services at best.

Three, I would categorically reject any increases in taxes. Illinois is already one of the most heavily taxed states in the country which is hurting its desirability as a place to live and work.

I know I'm out of here as soon as I can afford to leave.

Dude I'd make states like South Carolina--which gets almost $8 back from uncle sam for every dollar they pay in taxes--either pay it in full, or finance the difference.

15721

Republicans living in Republican states are 100% responsible for this country's fiscal issues.

Tahuyaman
08-10-2016, 11:55 PM
I would enact a flat tax rate of 10% on incomes over 30k a year. No deductions. Every American could calculate their total tax burden in their head without needing to consult a lawyer or accountant.

I would eliminate the corporate tax, capital gains tax and inheretence tax. Taxation upon businesses big and small would be left up to the states. The idea of a top marginal rate would be a relic of the past.

I would incentivize people putting their capital at risk to create a small business.

Oh....and I would eliminate the job killing ACA.

Economic growth would be phenomenal.

Of course that will never happen because government would not be in complete control any more. Government doesn't necessarily want to increase revenues through a growing economy, they want more control even if it means declining revenues.

Docthehun
08-10-2016, 11:55 PM
Dude. Illinois has no military budget.

I was just going to let that one go. :smiley: Hey, what about the National Guard?

Tahuyaman
08-11-2016, 12:01 AM
I was just going to let that one go. :smiley: Hey, what about the National Guard?


What about it? How much of the US Army National Guard is funded by the federal government?

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:01 AM
I was just going to let that one go. :smiley: Hey, what about the National Guard?

A strong question, sir!

The National Guard may receive state funding, however in most states it is primarily funded through the federal government. The Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, and Air Force Reserve components are not under state control and are solely funded by the federal government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 12:08 AM
If you don't raise taxes (excluding the recreational pot tax); how would you pay the benefits?

Why are we excluding the tax on recreational cannabis?

And those benefits are not sacred obligations handed down to us by god. They were empty promises made by lying politicians who think taxpayers are an endless piggy-bank to be plundered as and when they please.

In other words, some of the benefits might not be paid.

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 12:09 AM
Dude I'd make states like South Carolina--which gets almost $8 back from uncle sam for every dollar they pay in taxes--either pay it in full, or finance the difference.

15721

Republicans living in Republican states are 100% responsible for this country's fiscal issues.

This country's fiscal issues are entirely bipartisan.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 12:11 AM
I would enact a flat tax rate of 10% on incomes over 30k a year. No deductions. Every American could calculate their total tax burden in their head without needing to consult a lawyer or accountant.

I would eliminate the corporate tax, capital gains tax and inheretence tax. Taxation upon businesses big and small would be left up to the states. The idea of a top marginal rate would be a relic of the past.

I would incentivize people putting their capital at risk to create a small business.

Oh....and I would eliminate the job killing ACA.

Economic growth would be phenomenal.

Of course that will never happen because government would not be in complete control any more. Government doesn't necessarily want to increase revenues through a growing economy, they want more control even if it means declining revenues.

Okay, I just ran your flat tax plan, no deductions, no exemptions. 30,000 x 10% = 3,000

Current program for 2016 30,000
Personal Exemption ( 4,050)
Standard Deduction ( 6,300)
Taxable Income 19,650 $927.50 + (10,315 x 15%) $1,556.25 = 2,483.75

Hey, you just raised my taxes $516.25 ! :smiley:

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:12 AM
Oh....and I would eliminate the job killing ACA.


Re: the job killing ACA.

15722

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 12:12 AM
A strong question, sir!

The National Guard may receive state funding, however in most states it is primarily funded through the federal government. The Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, and Air Force Reserve components are not under state control and are solely funded by the federal government.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States

Gotcha! :smiley:

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 12:15 AM
Why are we excluding the tax on recreational cannabis?

And those benefits are not sacred obligations handed down to us by god. They were empty promises made by lying politicians who think taxpayers are an endless piggy-bank to be plundered as and when they please.

In other words, some of the benefits might not be paid.

Okay, give me your best estimate on the recreational tax money! Remember, you're competing with the black market. On the other hand, I remember back in college hearing, "It's better to have pot and no money than having money and no pot!" :smiley:

Tahuyaman
08-11-2016, 12:16 AM
Okay, I just ran your flat tax plan, no deductions, no exemptions. 30,000 x 10% = 3,000

Current program for 2016 30,000
Personal Exemption ( 4,050)
Standard Deduction ( 6,300)
Taxable Income 19,650 $927.50 + (10,315 x 15%) $1,556.25 = 2,483.75

Hey, you just raised my taxes $516.25 ! :smiley:

you're assuming a static economy.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 12:19 AM
you're assuming a static economy.

I used your numbers...............

Tahuyaman
08-11-2016, 12:25 AM
Re: the job killing ACA.


Anyone who who thinks the ACA has not impacted job growth in a negative way is an utter moron.

Tahuyaman
08-11-2016, 12:27 AM
I used your numbers...............

Again, you are assuming a static economy and someone who makes 30k or less pays zero income tax under my plan

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:39 AM
Okay, give me your best estimate on the recreational tax money! Remember, you're competing with the black market. On the other hand, I remember back in college hearing, "It's better to have pot and no money than having money and no pot!" :smiley:

Using available us census data:

1. 12,880,000 people in illinois;
2. 64% or 8,243,200 are adults;
3. 13% or 1,071,616 are potheads;
4. At $50 (take my word for it) a 1/4 ounce, $53,580,800 weekly taxable sales;
5. $2, 786,201,000 taxable annual sales;
6. Assuming a 10% tax, $278,620,160 in tax revenue.

This looks good to someone who is high, but it falls over $6 billion short of what is needed to balance the budget.

zelmo1234
08-11-2016, 12:42 AM
New Tax Code. Very short, very simple, covers all kings of income, Excluding Corporate

The first 25K that everyone makes You pay 0 in tax
25K -50K everyone pays 2.5%
50K to 125K everyone pays 10%
125K to 500K everyone pays 15%
over 500K everyone pays 25%

Only Deductions that are allowed is Charitable Giving up to 15% of your income

Corporate and Business Tax

First 250K 10%
Over 250K 15%

Tariffs to anyone country that we have a trade deficit with of 12.5%

Spending Cuts of 1.5% per year until the budget is balanced Additional Consolidation of departments

Abolish the ACA Replace with Medicaid extension, and free market private insurance Tort Reforms to lower the cost.

Immigration Reform.

Devastating fines for companies caught willingly employing illegal workers.

No federal Aid for States that allow cities to operate under the sanctuary City programs
Deport all illegals that are caught in the Daily routine of law enforcement and Government programs or Healthcare.
Constitutional amendment to end Anchor baby loophole.
5 year would camp for any illegals coming across the border

Welfare reform
32 hour community service or education for anyone on assistance.
No punishment for those that take Temp Jobs
Welfare reduces by 50% of any job that the person takes.
Restrict Food Stamp Program to whole foods.

10 year Industrial enterprise zones for businesses and Corporations
Each State takes the 3 worst unemployment cities and become a zero corporate Tax for the first 5 years and 55 for the next 5 years. Providing they can create at least 25 jobs paying at least 1 1/2 times minimum wage.

Look into unnecessary regulations and abolish them

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 12:44 AM
using available us census data:

1. 12,880,000 people in illinois;
2. 64% or 8,243,200 are adults;
3. 13% or 1,071,616 are potheads;
4. At $50 (take my word for it) a 1/4 ounce, $53,580,800 weekly taxable sales;
5. $2, 786,201,000 taxable annual sales;
6. Assuming a 10% tax, $278,620,160 in tax revenue.

This looks good to someone who is high, but it falls over $6 billion short of what is needed to balance the budget.

move to illnois & smoke em' like you got em'

By the way, Jose is around the minus mark after a major rift over the last bench appointment. Wife of partner vs the general population of lawyers choice (and Doc's).

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:00 AM
move to illnois & smoke em' like you got em'

By the way, Jose is around the minus mark after a major rift over the last bench appointment. Wife of partner vs the general population of lawyers choice (and Doc's).

Tell your friends that I would help you guys 'reorganize' your party just for the fun of it. No charge. For lasting results I would need 2 cycles.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:03 AM
New Tax Code. Very short, very simple, covers all kings of income, Excluding Corporate

The first 25K that everyone makes You pay 0 in tax
25K -50K everyone pays 2.5%
50K to 125K everyone pays 10%
125K to 500K everyone pays 15%
over 500K everyone pays 25%

Only Deductions that are allowed is Charitable Giving up to 15% of your income

Corporate and Business Tax

First 250K 10%
Over 250K 15%

Tariffs to anyone country that we have a trade deficit with of 12.5%

Spending Cuts of 1.5% per year until the budget is balanced Additional Consolidation of departments

Abolish the ACA Replace with Medicaid extension, and free market private insurance Tort Reforms to lower the cost.

Immigration Reform.

Devastating fines for companies caught willingly employing illegal workers.

No federal Aid for States that allow cities to operate under the sanctuary City programs
Deport all illegals that are caught in the Daily routine of law enforcement and Government programs or Healthcare.
Constitutional amendment to end Anchor baby loophole.
5 year would camp for any illegals coming across the border

Welfare reform
32 hour community service or education for anyone on assistance.
No punishment for those that take Temp Jobs
Welfare reduces by 50% of any job that the person takes.
Restrict Food Stamp Program to whole foods.

10 year Industrial enterprise zones for businesses and Corporations
Each State takes the 3 worst unemployment cities and become a zero corporate Tax for the first 5 years and 55 for the next 5 years. Providing they can create at least 25 jobs paying at least 1 1/2 times minimum wage.

Look into unnecessary regulations and abolish them

I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed that you came up with all of that in short order. Any idea how much revenue in total your program would generate? You can round to the nearest 100 billion.

But, we're not talking about the Fed, it's Illinois, so I respectfully request we stay on topic and return to my original set of questions. Thank You!

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:05 AM
I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed that you came up with all of that in short order. Any idea how much revenue in total your program would generate? You can round to the nearest 100 billion.

But, we're not talking about the Fed, it's Illinois, so I respectfully request we stay on topic and return to my original set of questions. Thank You!

I'd accept his ACA fix right out of the box--but, without the tort reform, as we in ohio have already done that and it didn't work.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:09 AM
Tell your friends that I would help you guys 'reorganize' your party just for the fun of it. No charge. For lasting results I would need 2 cycles.

Like the GOP, the transformation as already begun. Some unhappy campers on my side of the aisle. Cost me all my county business. "F" them! Still, he and I have discussed the whole thing and said if he were in my shoes, he would have done the same thing. He's a good guy, great attorney and treats me with a lot of respect, so I really don't have any problem with him.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:14 AM
I'd accept his ACA fix right out of the box--but, without the tort reform, as we in ohio have already done that and it didn't work.

We need to get the Counselor on this one. Let's talk about fixing Illinois. We get it fixed, we'll move on to DC (or Louisiana..:smiley:). You can fix that, you can fix anything.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:17 AM
Like the GOP, the transformation as already begun. Some unhappy campers on my side of the aisle. Cost me all my county business. "F" them! Still, he and I have discussed the whole thing and said if he were in my shoes, he would have done the same thing. He's a good guy, great attorney and treats me with a lot of respect, so I really don't have any problem with him.

Do you know Rob Scott? I bet he has a bethere fathead on the wall in his living room. Lmao.

Dave Landon > Rob Scott

Rob was hired as the state coordinator for trump!

The gop is doomed.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:20 AM
We need to get the Counselor on this one. Let's talk about fixing Illinois. We get it fixed, we'll move on to DC (or Louisiana..:smiley:). You can fix that, you can fix anything.

Well, I'd charge Dave because I know he can afford it!

;-)

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:23 AM
Do you know Rob Scott? I bet he has a bethere fathead on the wall in his living room. Lmao.

Dave Landon > Rob Scott

Rob was hired as the state coordinator for trump!

The gop is doomed.

Yea I saw that, no I don't personally know him......but, I know of him.

"Doom, despair, excessive misery"

I've got to crash. Greg Allman/ZZ Top on tap for Friday evening. I need my rest!

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:25 AM
Yea I saw that, no I don't personally know him......but, I know of him.

"Doom, despair, excessive misery"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHh0V7UjVXI

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:35 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHh0V7UjVXI

Great tune! I'd say Robert Cray would love playing lead. Thanks lad! Seriously, I'm crashing. Some of us have to work......

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:49 AM
15723
Great tune! I'd say Robert Cray would love playing lead. Thanks lad! Seriously, I'm crashing. Some of us have to work......

Bethere
08-11-2016, 02:02 AM
Why are we excluding the tax on recreational cannabis?

And those benefits are not sacred obligations handed down to us by god. They were empty promises made by lying politicians who think taxpayers are an endless piggy-bank to be plundered as and when they please.

In other words, some of the benefits might not be paid.

Those benefits are not empty promises but rather binding contracts negotiated in good faith between 2 parties with an offer, acceptance, consideration and a joint willingness to be bound.

I thought I heard you say a while back that this was a nation of laws?

Mac-7
08-11-2016, 03:26 AM
One thing to remember is that the fiscal issue, as a math problem, is ridiculously easy to solve. As a political issue, basically impossible.

Nothing done should be drastic anything should always be phased in. I would freeze nominal spending and decrease military spending by 5% per year

Cut spending across the board 5%

For every military man in uniform cut also cut one federal civilian employee at HUD or the EPA.

Peter1469
08-11-2016, 04:07 AM
End the income tax. Enact the Fair Tax (http://www.fairtaxnation.com/).

End Citizens United. Individuals can donate to political campaigns. Full transparency.

Remove harmful regulations.

Make it required that all have a photo ID. No exceptions. If some people are too stupid to figure it out, their buddies help them out.

Give people the option to privatize a portion of their Social Security. In safe plans like the Federal TSP.

End Obamacare. Expand Medicaid to cover people who can't afford insurance. Bring back catastrophic coverage.

No more nation building.

FindersKeepers
08-11-2016, 04:41 AM
Those benefits are not empty promises but rather binding contracts negotiated in good faith between 2 parties with an offer, acceptance, consideration and a joint willingness to be bound.

I thought I heard you say a while back that this was a nation of laws?



It's double-edged sword. Yes, we are a nation of laws, but Illinois lawmakers have bent over backwards to shuffle money from the majority of the taxpayers to fund outrageous pensions. Until the citizens vote in someone with some backbone to amend Illinois' constitution to finally remove the "let's rape the taxpayers for our pensions" clause, it can't change.

Taxes are already too high in Illinois so the pensions have to go. There really is no other way that is fair to all the citizens.

At the end of the day -- the State is a business -- a business that's operating in the red. I honestly don't know what it would take to get the issue in front of a judge -- much like a company that's in bankruptcy does -- and reduce those pension, but that needs to happen.

My two cents at any rate.

Mac-7
08-11-2016, 06:44 AM
It's double-edged sword. Yes, we are a nation of laws, but Illinois lawmakers have bent over backwards to shuffle money from the majority of the taxpayers to fund outrageous pensions. Until the citizens vote in someone with some backbone to amend Illinois' constitution to finally remove the "let's rape the taxpayers for our pensions" clause, it can't change.

Taxes are already too high in Illinois so the pensions have to go. There really is no other way that is fair to all the citizens.

At the end of the day -- the State is a business -- a business that's operating in the red.

I honestly don't know what it would take to get the issue in front of a judge -- much like a company that's in bankruptcy does -- and reduce those pension, but that needs to happen.

My two cents at any rate.

Dont count on some demigod in black robes to fix the problem

More likely the judge will mske it worse

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 06:52 AM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

#1 would be to abolish the current abomination called the Tax Code and supplant it with a Fair tax.

#2 I would then work with Congress to abolish the Departments of Education, HHS, HUD, Agriculture, Energy and Transportation. Those are States rights.

#3 I would work with and demand Congress pass term limits on themselves. Three terms for the House, two terms for the Senate. They are not reciprocal and once your served, your time is up. It is time to get back to a PART TIME Congress that doesn't pander to low information voters promising them free stuff.

#4 I would ban ALL subsidies. Companies, entities and individuals do not need the Government stealing from others and redistributing the wealth.

You do this and you will see an economic boom you have never experienced before and a balanced budget that is never in the red.

Lastly, I would end the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security. We don't need to fund Government largess on the backs of gullible sheeple who've been duped into thinking this is actually a form of retirement plan.

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 06:53 AM
Dude I'd make states like South Carolina--which gets almost $8 back from uncle sam for every dollar they pay in taxes--either pay it in full, or finance the difference.

15721

Republicans living in Republican states are 100% responsible for this country's fiscal issues.

:rofl:

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 06:54 AM
If you don't raise taxes (excluding the recreational pot tax); how would you pay the benefits?

:rofl: Another lefty who thinks we have a revenue problem.

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 06:56 AM
Okay, I just ran your flat tax plan, no deductions, no exemptions. 30,000 x 10% = 3,000

Current program for 2016 30,000
Personal Exemption ( 4,050)
Standard Deduction ( 6,300)
Taxable Income 19,650 $927.50 + (10,315 x 15%) $1,556.25 = 2,483.75

Hey, you just raised my taxes $516.25 ! :smiley:

:rofl: Proof that lefties are math challenged and not merely intelligence challenged.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 07:05 AM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

Illinois and Wisconsin were virtually in the exact same position when Wisconsin elected Scott Walker - and totally reversed their mess - and Illinois didn't.

Illinois needs to do what Wisconsin did. Punch public sector unions directly in the face with their version of Act 10.

This is not a mystery. If it worked for Wisconsin, it will work for Illinois.

zelmo1234
08-11-2016, 07:18 AM
I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed that you came up with all of that in short order. Any idea how much revenue in total your program would generate? You can round to the nearest 100 billion.

But, we're not talking about the Fed, it's Illinois, so I respectfully request we stay on topic and return to my original set of questions. Thank You!

Ah! there is a reason that I did not take up the topic of IL. It is lost! the Fed will have to bail out IL. They are to far gone when it comes to unpaid liabilities.

Don't have access to all of the numbers nationally but in a guess is would be about $4T plus the Tariffs

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 07:26 AM
:rofl: Another lefty who thinks we have a revenue problem.

Hun and Bethere are the same poster.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 08:44 AM
Illinois and Wisconsin were virtually in the exact same position when Wisconsin elected Scott Walker - and totally reversed their mess - and Illinois didn't.

Illinois needs to do what Wisconsin did. Punch public sector unions directly in the face with their version of Act 10.

This is not a mystery. If it worked for Wisconsin, it will work for Illinois.

"Punch public sector unions" - So you'd advocate pitting public unions against private unions (the ones Trump appealed to yesterday in Virginia coal country)? Excellent strategy! Carry on!

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 08:50 AM
Ah! there is a reason that I did not take up the topic of IL. It is lost! the Fed will have to bail out IL. They are to far gone when it comes to unpaid liabilities.

Don't have access to all of the numbers nationally but in a guess is would be about $4T plus the Tariffs

Obviously fixing the rules won't fix the problem without a "bailout" aka, "revenue problem". It's hurts to say it I know and puts you at odds with Truth Detector and Subdermal.

zelmo1234
08-11-2016, 08:54 AM
Obviously fixing the rules won't fix the problem without a "bailout" aka, "revenue problem". It's hurts to say it I know and puts you at odds with Truth Detector and Subdermal.

IL never had a revenue problem. they have a spending and corruption problem.

But that problem has passed the point of no return. The pension plans put in place by the Unions that were bribing the public officials are out of control and there is no possible way to fund them.

And Bankruptcy so they can get those down to about 25 cents on the dollar, and Federal Bailout are what is going to have to happen.

Taxes are so high in IL that people and companies are moving. there Debt is so high that they can't lower taxes. It is expected that in 2020 IL will loose at least one more electoral vote.

It is too late to save this ship, so it is time to abandon it.

Mac-7
08-11-2016, 08:56 AM
"Punch public sector unions" - So you'd advocate pitting public unions against private unions (the ones Trump appealed to yesterday in Virginia coal country)? Excellent strategy! Carry on!

No to a federal bailout.

Illinois must declare bankrupcy and pay the bondholders and union pension holders whatever the state can pay from cash on hand.

the bondholders get screwed equally along with the government workers

zelmo1234
08-11-2016, 09:15 AM
No to a federal bailout.

Illinois must declare bankrupcy and pay the bondholders and union pension holders whatever the state can pay from cash on hand.

the bondholders get screwed equally along with the government workers

This is what should happen I agree, if the Democrats are in charge they will bail out the Unions. The thought of all of the donations to the DNC actually being used to help the workers is not something they can handle.

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 09:16 AM
No to a federal bailout.

Illinois must declare bankrupcy and pay the bondholders and union pension holders whatever the state can pay from cash on hand.

the bondholders get screwed equally along with the government workers

Bondholders (the deep pockets) have legal precedent over the union pension workers. So we'll stiff all the little guys from the union workers right on down to the ma' and pa' vendors and contractors who the State owes money; aka nominee's mode of operation except when he's President.

Good strategy, carry on!
Slide in line behind Truth Detector and Subdermal.

zelmo1234
08-11-2016, 09:22 AM
Bondholders (the deep pockets) have legal precedent over the union pension workers. So we'll stiff all the little guys from the union workers right on down to the ma' and pa' vendors and contractors who the State owes money; aka nominee's mode of operation except when he's President.

Good strategy, carry on!
Slide in line behind Truth Detector and Subdermal.

This is not the fault of the Bond Holders. And remember that many of the Bond Holders, (Deep Pockets) are pension plans so lets remember that.

But the Bankruptcy laws are what they are. Now if you don't like them and want to change them, that is fine. But as of now the bond holders are top of the food chain. And don't blame them, it is the excess spending and corruption that put them in this place.

There is a Reason that FDR said there should never be any public unions. They can buy the contracts that they want by donations to politicians, That is what happened in IL and now these bloated pensions are bust. The Unions can invest the dues taken from it's members to sure up these bloated plans! so the cuts will not need to be as deep as expected.

As for the little guys? Sorry but if I take a job from a bankrupt state and don't get the cash up front? That is on me, not the state.

Mac-7
08-11-2016, 09:27 AM
Bondholders (the deep pockets) have legal precedent over the union pension workers.

So we'll stiff all the little guys from the union workers right on down to the ma' and pa' vendors and contractors who the State owes money; aka nominee's mode of operation except when he's President.

Good strategy, carry on!
Slide in line behind Truth Detector and Subdermal.

what I said was divide the loss equally between the creditors and government workers.

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 12:42 PM
Hun and Bethere are the same poster.

That's good to know; both sounded equally ignorant. :laugh:

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 12:51 PM
"Punch public sector unions" - So you'd advocate pitting public unions against private unions (the ones Trump appealed to yesterday in Virginia coal country)? Excellent strategy! Carry on!

WTF are you gargling about?

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:52 PM
Cut spending across the board 5%

For every military man in uniform cut also cut one federal civilian employee at HUD or the EPA.

None of this has anything to do with illinois' state budget.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:55 PM
End the income tax. Enact the Fair Tax (http://www.fairtaxnation.com/).

End Citizens United. Individuals can donate to political campaigns. Full transparency.

Remove harmful regulations.

Make it required that all have a photo ID. No exceptions. If some people are too stupid to figure it out, their buddies help them out.

Give people the option to privatize a portion of their Social Security. In safe plans like the Federal TSP.

End Obamacare. Expand Medicaid to cover people who can't afford insurance. Bring back catastrophic coverage.

No more nation building.

None of this has anything to do with illinois' state budget.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 12:58 PM
That's good to know; both sounded equally ignorant. :laugh:

I am everywhere, all of the time.

Truth Detector
08-11-2016, 12:59 PM
None of this has anything to do with illinois' state budget.

I missed that part; I thought we were talking about the Federal Government....I could care less what the Liberals do to the State of Illinois. They deserve the schitty government they voted for.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 12:59 PM
Why didn't Illinois do what Wisconsin did?

They were - and are - irresponsible. They're leftists; that's what they do. The screwups and sloppy wet corrupt kisses to leftist public sector unions are what has destroyed Illinois' financial viability.

ACT 10 fixed in Wisconsin exactly what Illinois suffers from - and Illinois consciously decided to ignore their problem. Our prior (leftist) Governor - Jumpin' Jim Doyle - never met a tax he didn't like.

The failure of Illinois proves that leftists are the greedy idiots. They should feel the pain, and anyone who participated in the corruption of public sector unions should feel the pain as well, and have their pensions tapped and health care coverage removed. There is no way in hell that Illinois taxpayers should be forced to pay for health care for retired Illinois public union members.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:15 PM
I missed that part; I thought we were talking about the Federal Government....I could care less what the Liberals do to the State of Illinois. They deserve the schitty government they voted for.

That is what they get for electing a Republican governor?

Docthehun
08-11-2016, 01:16 PM
That's good to know; both sounded equally ignorant. :laugh:

You've simply set the bar too high.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 01:20 PM
That is what they get for electing a Republican governor?

Intentional ignorance doesn't improve your persona here. Wisconsin elected Scott Walker and he utterly reversed the same condition which is now terminal in Illinois.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 01:22 PM
You've simply set the bar too high.

Ignorant as well as stupid?

Bethere
08-11-2016, 01:26 PM
Intentional ignorance doesn't improve your persona here. Wisconsin elected Scott Walker and he utterly reversed the same condition which is now terminal in Illinois.
Wisconsin had balanced budgets every single year before walker.

It was a false dilemma.

DGUtley
08-11-2016, 02:03 PM
I'm not an economist, just a country lawyer, but here's my initial thoughts, not necessarily in order of importance:

1. Force all employees everywhere into Social Security. It is unconscionable that we have a system that "they" create and manage and then they (or one of their favored unions) exempt themselves from the impact of. (Theory being here that if they had to live with it, it'd be much better managed).
2. BBA with an expiring national security exception (sunshine clause).
3. Eliminate baseline budgeting but go to a 2 or 3 year budget cycle. Every two to three years, account for the need for every dollar for every department - from dollar one.
4. Top to bottom review of military spending to eliminate / reduce redundancy, waste, antiquated systems, modes, operations etc.
5. I am 53. For my generation only means test social security, put it on our backs. If we don't need it, we don't take it. The only think we ask is fix it permanently. (The problem is that it's the government, they'll squander our sacrifice.)
6. For future generations, hybrid public / private social security.
7. The albatross of health care for the poor and elderly - I don't know. I think we'll eventually end up in single payer.
8. Taxes -- everybody pays personal federal income tax through a return. Everybody. Bar none. Everybody has to have skin in the game. Even if it's 2%, everybody pays.
9. Move as much to the states as constitutionally mandated. Return to defined powers.
10. Eliminate the public unions' ability to negotiate benefits / wages but retain the right to negotiate / strike over health & safety issues. Public unions get no more / no less than average in the area.

Archer0915
08-11-2016, 02:09 PM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

More jobs and less free trade! We would make the people want it!

I will throw my hat in with an idea! Vote for ME! I will begin a BUY BACK America Stimulus package!
All the old closed factories will be reopened with investment from the federal government, state and local governments and shares sold to individuals! The state and federal governments will sell off their shares (up to 50% direct share ownership) to US citizens only and no citizen may own more that 20% of any of these businesses.
The remaining federal and state shares will be sold off in funds (US investment funds) that may be used in a retirement portfolio, there will be no vote by proxy allowed. The funds will be only for serious US citizen investors.

Add to that penalizing any country that allows infringement of US patents/copyright! If China allows infringement and does not, in short order, cease and compensate the patent holder they will be hit with tariffs for one year on all products sent to the US!

Hal Jordan
08-11-2016, 02:15 PM
I refuse to fix it until I'm in charge of the US as a whole. Sorry.

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 03:34 PM
Okay, give me your best estimate on the recreational tax money! Remember, you're competing with the black market. On the other hand, I remember back in college hearing, "It's better to have pot and no money than having money and no pot!" :smiley:

Conservatively, I would estimate tax revenues from legal marijuana sales to reach $200 to $300 million a year, based on Colorado's data (http://taxfoundation.org/article/marijuana-legalization-and-taxes-lessons-other-states-colorado-and-washington).

But we also have to factor in the significant savings that would result from not enforcing marijuana laws. Illinois spends about $207 million a year on marijuana prohibition (http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/mironreport/).

So all told, that would net Illinois around $400 to $500 million a year, and I believe that's a conservative estimate.

Mac-7
08-11-2016, 03:35 PM
None of this has anything to do with illinois' state budget.

See post#50


No to a federal bailout.

Illinois must declare bankrupcy and pay the bondholders and union pension holders whatever the state can pay from cash on hand.

the bondholders get screwed equally along with the government workers

i might add that if the feds bail out illinois puerto rico will expect the same treatment

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 03:36 PM
Using available us census data:

1. 12,880,000 people in illinois;
2. 64% or 8,243,200 are adults;
3. 13% or 1,071,616 are potheads;
4. At $50 (take my word for it) a 1/4 ounce, $53,580,800 weekly taxable sales;
5. $2, 786,201,000 taxable annual sales;
6. Assuming a 10% tax, $278,620,160 in tax revenue.

This looks good to someone who is high, but it falls over $6 billion short of what is needed to balance the budget.

Well, yea. Nobody said that legalizing marijuana would solve Illinois' insane budget problems. But a few hundred million extra a year is nothing to sneeze at.

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 03:39 PM
Those benefits are not empty promises but rather binding contracts negotiated in good faith between 2 parties with an offer, acceptance, consideration and a joint willingness to be bound.

Contracts are renegotiated all the time. Just look at the bond market, for example.


I thought I heard you say a while back that this was a nation of laws?

I don't believe I said that, but even if I did, there is nothing unlawful about renegotiating contracts in order to adapt to changing circumstances.

Ethereal
08-11-2016, 03:45 PM
Why didn't Illinois do what Wisconsin did?

They were - and are - irresponsible. They're leftists; that's what they do. The screwups and sloppy wet corrupt kisses to leftist public sector unions are what has destroyed Illinois' financial viability.

ACT 10 fixed in Wisconsin exactly what Illinois suffers from - and Illinois consciously decided to ignore their problem. Our prior (leftist) Governor - Jumpin' Jim Doyle - never met a tax he didn't like.

The failure of Illinois proves that leftists are the greedy idiots. They should feel the pain, and anyone who participated in the corruption of public sector unions should feel the pain as well, and have their pensions tapped and health care coverage removed. There is no way in hell that Illinois taxpayers should be forced to pay for health care for retired Illinois public union members.

My dad is a small business owner in Illinois. I watched him shell out piles of cash to finance the bloated compensation of public sector unions in this state. I had a teacher in high school who taught a "health" class that was basically a joke and he was the coach for track & field and cross country. By the time he retired, he was making over $100,000 a year to do a job that I could have done just as well as a sixteen-year-old. He gets 80% pension for life. I can't tell you how much that stings, knowing my hard-working father had to slave away (along with thousands of other people in Illinois) for years to subsidize this leech and others like him.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 06:11 PM
Wisconsin had balanced budgets every single year before walker.

It was a false dilemma.

You'd better be prepared to understand this subject better than I do - and you don't.

Doyle's projected budget deficit the year he left office was 3.6 Billion dollars - for which, he was going to raise taxes...again. He met budgets because Wisconsin's Constitution requires balanced budgets. The problem was, however, that Doyle met those budgets by massively increasing taxes in this State, AND robbing slush funds to he should have had NO ACCESS.

In addition to that corruption, there was rampant corruption at WEAC (Teacher's union). They set up a sweet WEAC Trust deal where their member had to buy their insurance through their pet set up company.

The problem was the cost was in some cases 3 TIMES what comparable insurance would have cost on the private market.

Teachers didn't care, because their unions paid it!

Just one of the many ripoffs leftists were perpetrating on Wisconsin taxpayers.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 06:47 PM
You'd better be prepared to understand this subject better than I do - and you don't.

Doyle's projected budget deficit the year he left office was 3.6 Billion dollars - for which, he was going to raise taxes...again. He met budgets because Wisconsin's Constitution requires balanced budgets. The problem was, however, that Doyle met those budgets by massively increasing taxes in this State, AND robbing slush funds to he should have had NO ACCESS.

In addition to that corruption, there was rampant corruption at WEAC (Teacher's union). They set up a sweet WEAC Trust deal where their member had to buy their insurance through their pet set up company.

The problem was the cost was in some cases 3 TIMES what comparable insurance would have cost on the private market.

Teachers didn't care, because their unions paid it!

Just one of the many ripoffs leftists were perpetrating on Wisconsin taxpayers.

Nonsense. He took a balanced budget, cut taxes, and then declared a funding emergency.

It was an emergency that he created.

Here in Ohio we watched kasich do the same thing.

Just because you are stupid doesn't mean that we are stupid.

Subdermal
08-11-2016, 10:14 PM
Nonsense. He took a balanced budget, cut taxes, and then declared a funding emergency.

It was an emergency that he created.

Here in Ohio we watched kasich do the same thing.

Just because you are stupid doesn't mean that we are stupid.

You are inventing bullsht. You'd better offer evidence, clown.

Bethere
08-11-2016, 11:05 PM
You are inventing bullsht. You'd better offer evidence, clown.

It's a matter of record.

Google it.

Truth Detector
08-12-2016, 06:46 AM
That is what they get for electing a Republican governor?

Bruce has been there since January 2015. DUH! Good lord, are all liberals this ignorant? By the way, he still has to deal with Democratic morons in the State House who have a strangle hold on the legislature.

I bet you supported that criminal Rod Blagojevich didn't you? :rofl:

Truth Detector
08-12-2016, 06:47 AM
You've simply set the bar too high.

Based on your posts, you can't see the bar. :rofl:

Docthehun
08-12-2016, 07:34 AM
Based on your posts, you can't see the bar. :rofl:

Exactly!

PS - I could comment on the quality your posts, but that would be a contradiction of terms. I will say, based on your posts, I really don't care what you think.

It wasn't lost on me, that too could be considered a contradiction in terms.

So, to be brief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnTWxpTQt4

Subdermal
08-12-2016, 07:45 AM
It's a matter of record.

Google it.

I accept your surrender, clown. Way to give up without a hamster.

NapRover
08-12-2016, 08:11 AM
Well, yea. Nobody said that legalizing marijuana would solve Illinois' insane budget problems. But a few hundred million extra a year is nothing to sneeze at.
I think 1/4 ounce/week is a little heavy, given today's potency. Also, assuming >1M people/week can afford $50 habits is a bit optimistic.
What you will get though, is a massive increase in panhandlers needing pot money (been to Denver or Portland lately?-and it's not even legal in OR). And folks selling their SNAP goods for cash to buy pot.

one last thing, IL is so corrupt, that people will expand the government, line their pockets with the $$ and no improvements will be made.

The Scott Walker remedy is the best.

Bethere
08-12-2016, 01:10 PM
Exactly!

PS - I could comment on the quality your posts, but that would be a contradiction of terms. I will say, based on your posts, I really don't care what you think.

It wasn't lost on me, that too could be considered a contradiction in terms.

So, to be brief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnTWxpTQt4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzZcBceUZJw

Professor Peabody
08-13-2016, 03:46 AM
If you don't raise taxes (excluding the recreational pot tax); how would you pay the benefits?

The Pot Tax would include weed can only be sold to the public by well regulated Government licensed growers, like alcohol. There would be limits on how strong each joint can be. Anyone caught growing without a license would be fined the first time and jail time for the second. Edibles would be bound by the same regulations as any food producer with edibles available to the public. I'm thinking $5.50 a pack tax as with cigarettes. It's sounding better all the time........

Once Big Tobacco gets it mitts into legal Pot sales......look out. They have enough money to make sure Governmentally there will be NO little pot suppliers. Pot shops will only be able to legally supply the "mix" the Tobacco companies will likely supply. Try to go around them and the full wrath of the Government will land on 'em like like a 100 kilos of weed.

I will make this prediction right here and now. Within 5 to 10 years of Pot legalization, the folks who pushed so hard for it will be wishing for the good old days

Professor Peabody
08-13-2016, 03:54 AM
Re: the job killing ACA.

15722

Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Series Id: LNS11300000
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Labor Force Participation Rate
Labor force status: Civilian labor force participation rate
Type of data: Percent or rate
Age: 16 years and over

http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_LNS11300000_2006_2016_all_period_M0 7_data.gif

What kook blog did you get that chart from?

Bethere
08-13-2016, 05:04 PM
The Pot Tax would include weed can only be sold to the public by well regulated Government licensed growers, like alcohol. There would be limits on how strong each joint can be. Anyone caught growing without a license would be fined the first time and jail time for the second. Edibles would be bound by the same regulations as any food producer with edibles available to the public. I'm thinking $5.50 a pack tax as with cigarettes. It's sounding better all the time........

Once Big Tobacco gets it mitts into legal Pot sales......look out. They have enough money to make sure Governmentally there will be NO little pot suppliers. Pot shops will only be able to legally supply the "mix" the Tobacco companies will likely supply. Try to go around them and the full wrath of the Government will land on 'em like like a 100 kilos of weed.

I will make this prediction right here and now. Within 5 to 10 years of Pot legalization, the folks who pushed so hard for it will be wishing for the good old days

$5.50 a pack sounds good to me!

OGIS
08-13-2016, 05:50 PM
One thing to remember is that the fiscal issue, as a math problem, is ridiculously easy to solve. As a political issue, basically impossible.

Nothing done should be drastic anything should always be phased in.

Excellent start. It's easy to whine about how government spending and government regulation are killing the economy, but the people who spout this either forget or don't care that many millions of people make their livelihoods by either supply goods to the government, performing jobs for the government, or figuring out ways for dealing with government regulations advising clients, and doing the paperwork.

For example, one of my first jobs in accounting was managing the license status of a very large fleet of trucks. And a large part of the day for Controllers and Accounting managers is dealing with all the fees, licenses, property taxes, and sales taxes of a business. There are hundreds of thousands of tax preparers, and most CPAs spend a large part of their time thinking about regulatory response. And last but not least: tax lawyers.

So as a general rule, I would always include a time delay to new regulation or the lapse of old regulation. That gives everyone affected time to plan and adjust. The down side to that, of course, is all the game-playing that will occur during the interim.


I would freeze nominal spending and decrease military spending by 5% per year

I'd like to see a government buy-in on a profitable mega-project. For the price of two supercarriers we could probably have a beanstalk.

OGIS
08-13-2016, 06:09 PM
I would enact a flat tax rate of 10% on incomes over 30k a year. No deductions. Every American could calculate their total tax burden in their head without needing to consult a lawyer or accountant.

Would you build in a grace period? If not, what do you do with several million non-jobless lawyers and accountants? It would not be a boom time for them.


I would eliminate the corporate tax, capital gains tax and inheretence tax. Taxation upon businesses big and small would be left up to the states. The idea of a top marginal rate would be a relic of the past.

Pass-through of corporate taxes to the stock ownership?


I would incentivize people putting their capital at risk to create a small business.

How?


Oh....and I would eliminate the job killing ACA.

And replace with....? (Options include total deregulation.)


Economic growth would be phenomenal.

Mmmmm.... not, I think, across the board.


Of course that will never happen because government would not be in complete control any more. Government doesn't necessarily want to increase revenues through a growing economy, they want more control even if it means declining revenues.

Is there an actual cabal? Do they discuss this stuff? Who is in the conspiracy?

Bethere
08-13-2016, 09:26 PM
Is there an actual cabal? Do they discuss this stuff? Who is in the conspiracy?

That would be telling.

15792

OGIS
08-13-2016, 10:14 PM
That would be telling.

15792

Ha! I was going to post a reference to that!

Great minds thinks alike.

That was one of the greatest media trolls of damned near everyone and everything Establishment that I have ever seen.

Bethere
08-13-2016, 10:30 PM
That would be telling.

15792


Ha! I was going to post a reference to that!

Great minds thinks alike.

That was one of the greatest media trolls of damned near everyone and everything Establishment that I have ever seen.

15798

debbietoo
08-15-2016, 08:22 AM
Your job is to fix this fiscal mess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/illinois-exemplifies-our-fiscal-foolishness/2016/08/10/22d92bbe-5e51-11e6-8e45-477372e89d78_story.html?utm_term=.1a5325fe8769

Would you tell the union people to suck it up?

Would you lower taxes?

What would you do?

You're in charge, make the call.

We need to raise the payroll tax cap. That would increase revenue. Also, increase taxes on carried interest and capital gains, since they are not wages. See this article on why this loophole should be reformed.

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-carried-interest-tax-loophole-2100059

Common
08-15-2016, 08:27 AM
I think 1/4 ounce/week is a little heavy, given today's potency. Also, assuming >1M people/week can afford $50 habits is a bit optimistic.
What you will get though, is a massive increase in panhandlers needing pot money (been to Denver or Portland lately?-and it's not even legal in OR). And folks selling their SNAP goods for cash to buy pot.

one last thing, IL is so corrupt, that people will expand the government, line their pockets with the $$ and no improvements will be made.

The Scott Walker remedy is the best.

Thats always been my point, legalizing it doesnt cure the need to get cash to buy it. So all the crimes related to drugs are the same when its legal

nathanbforrest45
08-15-2016, 08:29 AM
Dude I'd make states like South Carolina--which gets almost $8 back from uncle sam for every dollar they pay in taxes--either pay it in full, or finance the difference.

15721

Republicans living in Republican states are 100% responsible for this country's fiscal issues.

Dude???????????????????????????????????

How much more condescending can you be? Or are you like 15 years old?

Docthehun
08-15-2016, 08:32 AM
We need to raise the payroll tax cap. That would increase revenue. Also, increase taxes on carried interest and capital gains, since they are not wages. See this article on why this loophole should be reformed.

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-carried-interest-tax-loophole-2100059

Work to do, I'll get back with you later.

DGUtley
08-15-2016, 08:49 AM
We need to raise the payroll tax cap.

Why? You realize that there's no return on our social security contributions (or the employer's matching amount), right? It's really just theft if you raise the ceiling and take more (on top of the 'progressive' tax rates). Why steal more from those that make more?

Hal Jordan
08-15-2016, 09:46 AM
Thats always been my point, legalizing it doesnt cure the need to get cash to buy it. So all the crimes related to drugs are the same when its legal

Is that what we've seen in Colorado?

debbietoo
08-15-2016, 10:00 AM
Thats always been my point, legalizing it doesnt cure the need to get cash to buy it. So all the crimes related to drugs are the same when its legal

Tell conservatives to quit blocking minimum wage increases and then people won't need food stamps.

Private Pickle
08-15-2016, 10:02 AM
Tell conservatives to quit blocking minimum wage increases and then people won't need food stamps.

lol

If you say it out loud it's even funnier...

Private Pickle
08-15-2016, 10:02 AM
Is that what we've seen in Colorado?

No.

OGIS
08-15-2016, 10:24 AM
We need to raise the payroll tax cap. That would increase revenue. Also, increase taxes on carried interest and capital gains, since they are not wages. See this article on why this loophole should be reformed.

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-carried-interest-tax-loophole-2100059

Would that include Social Security deductions? And would the SS tax also apply to stock option benefit values at time of vesting or sale, and to other package benies like company car, paid private valet, etc? Thought: SS taxes are matched by the company. If there were no limit on SS deductions, which were based on total compensation, that might give BOD members with finance backgrounds pause when throwing out these bloated $300+ million salary packages to golden haired executives.

Sounds like a plan. The caps on SS taxes never made sense to me. The caps blatantly discriminate against people with lower wages and salaries, and they starve the SS of needed cash flow.

Oh, it goes without saying that high-priced execs, who have paid high-end SS contributions, would NOT have a payout limit (i.e.: the schedule payouts keep going up based on the past income). My earnings were well past the cap, but I retired a couple of years early, so I'm only getting about $2K per month. If there had been no cap, I would probably be getting around $3K to $4K per month.

OGIS
08-15-2016, 10:33 AM
Thats always been my point, legalizing it doesnt cure the need to get cash to buy it. So all the crimes related to drugs are the same when its legal

All other factors being equal, legalization reduces the cost of the drug. Reason: the overhead costs of the sellers are reduced, and competition passes the savings on to the consumer. Therefore: the amount of cash needed to buy the drug goes down, and therefore less crime is required to fund that cash.

This is simple Capitalism 101. Let the Market work.

Mac-7
08-15-2016, 10:40 AM
We need to raise the payroll tax cap.

Translation:

we need more income redistribution.

take money from people who earned it and give it to people who didnt

OGIS
08-15-2016, 10:41 AM
Is that what we've seen in Colorado?

The situation in Colorado has been muddied up by the fact that many homeless people with mental or physical health problems often self-medicate with street drugs because they cannot get prescription drugs.[1]

In Colorado, the population of street people has been pumped up by immigration from other states where marijuana is more risky or harder to obtain. With a larger street population, the amount of crime increases. Note that this is not the fault of the drug, but of the market skewing that various regulations in other states create.

Again, this is not rocket science, but common sense and the use of logic and an elementary knowledge of how the world works.

[1] We know a lady from our time when we were homeless. She is still homeless, and suffers from the same depression as my wife. She also has bad knees (from working 40 years as a waitress, from age 15 on). So when she was first homeless, clueless about where to get help, and in pain, she begged one Vicodin tablet off of a "friend" who was also a police informant. Busted. She now has a felony drug possession record and is legally barred from getting help from the Orange County Mental Health Agency. Oh yeah, she is also barred from getting food stamps. Guess what? She smokes weed.

Mac-7
08-15-2016, 10:46 AM
Tell conservatives to quit blocking minimum wage increases and then people won't need food stamps.

Ok

how about a compromise?

we will raise the minimum wage to $15 in return for ending the food stamp program

Deal?

debbietoo
08-15-2016, 10:50 AM
Would that include Social Security deductions? And would the SS tax also apply to stock option benefit values at time of vesting or sale, and to other package benies like company car, paid private valet, etc? Thought: SS taxes are matched by the company. If there were no limit on SS deductions, which were based on total compensation, that might give BOD members with finance backgrounds pause when throwing out these bloated $300+ million salary packages to golden haired executives.

Sounds like a plan. The caps on SS taxes never made sense to me. The caps blatantly discriminate against people with lower wages and salaries, and they starve the SS of needed cash flow.

Oh, it goes without saying that high-priced execs, who have paid high-end SS contributions, would NOT have a payout limit (i.e.: the schedule payouts keep going up based on the past income). My earnings were well past the cap, but I retired a couple of years early, so I'm only getting about $2K per month. If there had been no cap, I would probably be getting around $3K to $4K per month.

Raise the cap slightly.

debbietoo
08-15-2016, 10:52 AM
Raise the cap slightly, but also limit social security income and/or tax it for people who already have large retirement income portfolios.

OGIS
08-15-2016, 10:55 AM
Raise the cap slightly.

What are your pragmatic and moral justifications for not eliminating the cap?

OGIS
08-15-2016, 10:58 AM
Raise the cap slightly, but also limit social security income and/or tax it for people who already have large retirement income portfolios.

Taxes on social security retirement payments need to stop. As with dividends, that money has already been taxed once. Either that, or exclude FICA amounts from income taxes. Income taxes need to be levied on income NET of all other taxes.

Hal Jordan
08-15-2016, 11:00 AM
The situation in Colorado has been muddied up by the fact that many homeless people with mental or physical health problems often self-medicate with street drugs because they cannot get prescription drugs.[1]

In Colorado, the population of street people has been pumped up by immigration from other states where marijuana is more risky or harder to obtain. With a larger street population, the amount of crime increases. Note that this is not the fault of the drug, but of the market skewing that various regulations in other states create.

Again, this is not rocket science, but common sense and the use of logic and an elementary knowledge of how the world works.

So, you're saying that logic dictates that crime goes up because of an influx of street people from other states. Yet, the amount of crime has not only not risen in Colorado, it has been decreasing. It may be up in Denver, but official reports say that only 1% of all reported offenses were related to marijuana (which they have been keeping specific track of since 2012).

DGUtley
08-15-2016, 11:00 AM
Raise the cap slightly, but also limit social security income and/or tax it for people who already have large retirement income portfolios.

Why raise the cap and then means test SS, other than because you can? Remember, you've taken approximately 12% (6% + 6% employer matching) of every nickel they've earned from those individuals their entire life up to the cap). On top of that, they've had the foresight and ability to put money away (10 - 20% of every nickel they've earned) for when they retire. Because of their foresight and hard work and risk taking they've put together a "large retirement portfolio" and now you want to limit it or special tax it? Really? Why? That doesn't strike you as "unfair"? Remember, you've spent their whole life taxing them at a higher rate b/c they've earned more through tremendous risk taking, hard work, long hours, overcoming failure and sacrifice. Does all of this seem fair to you?

Please help me out here. Just so we're clear, I figured when I was in law school that they'd means test social security and have planned accordingly. Imagine though, if it was you, that had Mordor on the Potomac take 12% of every nickel you made (while carving for themselves little individual accounts out in the federal systems), telling you that you had no legal expectation to any of it let alone a return and then when you get within striking distance of retirement, all the people in the wagon you've been pulling for 40 years start clamoring to means test your social security but not theirs.

OGIS
08-15-2016, 11:05 AM
Ok

how about a compromise?

we will raise the minimum wage to $15 in return for ending the food stamp program

Deal?

How about we:
- establish a Minimum Annual Income,
- abolish the minimum wage,
- abolish food stamps and other welfare,
- pay workers whose annual wages fall under the minimum a BGI differential,
- publicly shame the companies whose owners want to make a decent living, but are not concerned about their employees doing likewise.

OGIS
08-15-2016, 11:11 AM
So, you're saying that logic dictates that crime goes up because of an influx of street people from other states. Yet, the amount of crime has not only not risen in Colorado, it has been decreasing. It may be up in Denver, but official reports say that only 1% of all reported offenses were related to marijuana (which they have been keeping specific track of since 2012).

I'm actually agreeing with both your assertion and your facts. I don't KNOW that the increase in street people has increased the amount of crime, but it is a reasonable assumption that it does. People gotta do what people gotta do to stay alive. But that actually supports your factual position: one huge effect of legalization is an overall decrease in crime. That decrease is so large, in fact, that it masks the smaller increase from the increased population of homeless druggies.

Docthehun
08-15-2016, 03:04 PM
The residents of Illinois have sent a heartfelt thanks to all of us for addressing their situation in pretty much the same fashion we've addressed all our serious problems, "It sucks being you." :smiley:

Docthehun
08-15-2016, 04:52 PM
On the topic of SS and raising and/or eliminating the cap. I tend to think eliminating the cap wouldn't have a dramatic overall impact.

I think we have to look at the big picture. The first thing I'd want to know is what kind of shape would the Fund be in, had not our friends in Washington decided that it was a slush fund, to the tune of something like 2.7T. That would give us a needed starting point to determine what needs to be done. Out of the gate, there's no doubt we have to raise the retirement age to reflect current life expectancy. This is just one item where the medicine for the cure tastes bad.

On my first "100 days" program would be the, "good for the goose, good for the gander" and effective today, "You are officially now part of the program you've designed and administered." I bet SS reform would become a hot topic in DC.

At 80%, SS is the country's most popular social program, just slightly ahead of Medicare. So tinkering with it has to be a shared burden and yes, the rich will have to pay more. You can reasonably call that wealth redistribution; it is. But the most important thing is the greater good, since presumably, we're all in this together.

As for means testing, I don't have a problem with it and I don't believe the Counselor does either. I think a compromise could be made, whereby perhaps the wealthy forego the half paid by the employer with those monies being returned to the fund. You (the wealthy) didn't pay any tax on those monies contributed by the employer, so there's no real loss to those individuals.

So I'm back to getting our base number and proceeding from there.

Peter1469
08-15-2016, 04:56 PM
Back to raising the rates on capital gains, that ignores the fact that capital gains are made by putting money at risk. I would tax them at a lower rate than long term capital gains are taxed today. (That would benefit short term capital gains for high risk).

That money gets into the economy so business can pay wages. Then the government can tax those wages as income.

Docthehun
08-15-2016, 05:07 PM
Back to raising the rates on capital gains, that ignores the fact that capital gains are made by putting money at risk. I would tax them at a lower rate than long term capital gains are taxed today. (That would benefit short term capital gains for high risk).

That money gets into the economy so business can pay wages. Then the government can tax those wages as income.

One problem with an across-the-board hike in capital gains taxes is that it concentrates wealth because land and building owners are reluctant to turn properties because of the tax. Just like other businesses, turning inventory is a key component of success. Owning those type assets is a key to getting ahead. Too high a tax puts younger individuals in a poor position to acquire those wealth building assets.