What Should Obama Do About Russia Bombing Civilian Targets in Syria?

[debbietoo]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?

[exploited]

He should do nothing. Civilian casualties happen during war-time, and are unavoidable. Let the Russians finish off the Islamists and stabilize the Syrian National Government.

[Beevee]

He should do nothing. Civilian casualties happen during war-time, and are unavoidable. Let the Russians finish off the Islamists and stabilize the Syrian National Government.

Then they can aim their warheads at the US. Collateral damage. No big thing.

[exploited]

Then they can aim their warheads at the US. Collateral damage. No big thing.

The warheads are already aimed at the United States, and in any case, their use would constitute immediate suicide. So, yes, no big thing.

[FindersKeepers]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?


Obama, and his support of the rebels who wanted to overthrow Saddam was (at least partially) the CAUSE of the civil war in Syria. At this point, Obama needs to keep his nose out of it and understand that he already has the blood of tens of thousands of innocents on his hands.

As far as an agreement called "ISIL," there's no such thing. ISIL is simply another term for the enemy -- the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. So is IS.

[Captain Obvious]

Play another round of golf

[Captain Obvious]

Then they can aim their warheads at the US. Collateral damage. No big thing.

The cold war is over, didn't you see Austin Powers?

[Beevee]

The warheads are already aimed at the United States, and in any case, their use would constitute immediate suicide. So, yes, no big thing.

Unlike the US, with nothing to fear, having their nuclear warheads encased in cement, I suppose?

[exploited]

Unlike the US, with nothing to fear, having their nuclear warheads encased in cement, I suppose?

I really don't know what you are trying to get at here. Of course the US has warheads pointed at Russia.

If you could just say what you mean, I would appreciate it. Perhaps link it back to the OP in a coherent, logically consistent way?

[debbietoo]

I mistakenly thought "ISIL" was an agreement between Russia and the US. I found this article from last year.

Russia Surprises U.S. With Accord on Battling ISIS


UNITED NATIONS — For the second time this month, Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) moved toexpand its political and military influence (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/middleeast/russian-moves-in-syria-widen-role-in-mideast.html) in the Syria (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/syria/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) conflict and left the United States scrambling, this time by reaching an understanding, announced on Sunday, with Iraq (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/iraq/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), Syria and Iran (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/iran/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) to share intelligence about the Islamic State.

Like Russia’s earlier move (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/05/world/middleeast/russian-moves-in-syria-pose-concerns-for-us.html) to bolster the government of President Bashar al-Assad (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/bashar_al_assad/index.html?inline=nyt-per) by deploying warplanes and tanks (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/world/middleeast/russia-deploys-ground-attack-aircraft-to-syrian-base.html) to a base near Latakia, Syria, the intelligence-sharing arrangement was sealed without notice to the United States. American officials knew that a group of Russian military officers were in Baghdad, but they were clearly surprised when the Iraqi military’s Joint Operations Command announced the intelligence sharing accord on Sunday.

It was another sign that President Vladimir V. Putin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/vladimir_v_putin/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) was moving ahead with a sharply different tack from that of the Obama administration in battling the Islamic State, also known as ISIS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/al_qaeda_in_mesopotamia/index.html?inline=nyt-org) or ISIL, by assembling a rival coalition that includes Iran and the Syrian government.

The effort, which Mr. Putin is expected to underscore in his speech at the United Nations on Monday, not only puts Moscow in a position to give military support to Mr. Assad, its longtime ally in the Middle East, but could also enable the Kremlin to influence the choice of a successor if Mr. Assad were to eventually leave power.

Source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/28/world/middleeast/iraq-agrees-to-share-intelligence-on-isis-with-russia-syria-and-iran.html?_r=0

Putin is aiming at civilian targets now, out of Iran, and this puts our President in a very precarious situation.

[Tahuyaman]

What Should Obama Do About Russia Bombing Civilian Targets in Syria?
There's nothing he can do short of deploy forces. He doesn't have the credibility to use diplomacy. He's been punked too many times.

[The Xl]

Mind his business. He has absolutely no ground to talk when it comes to civilian casualties anyway.

[Beevee]

I really don't know what you are trying to get at here. Of course the US has warheads pointed at Russia.

If you could just say what you mean, I would appreciate it. Perhaps link it back to the OP in a coherent, logically consistent way?

What am I trying to say?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Which applies to every thread on the entire forum, not a convoluted premise that one party's followers is always right and the other's is always wrong.

[Tahuyaman]

What am I trying to say?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Which applies to every thread on the entire forum, not a convoluted premise that one party's followers is always right and the other's is always wrong.

yes, what are you trying to say?

[Common Sense]

Maybe Obama can ask Trump to ask his buddy Putin to cool it.

Or maybe Ivanka could ask her friend Deng to ask her boyfriend Putin?

[Peter1469]

Most nations other than the US, Britain, Canada and France don't follow strict rules of engagement in war. Russia certainly doesn't.

We can have our ambassador talk to their ambassador.

[Ethereal]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?

The civil war in Syria wouldn't even be happening if it weren't for Obama and his meddling in that country's internal affairs.

And if you're so concerned with civilian casualties, then you might want to ask what Obama is going to do about the civilian casualties the US produces in Syria.


US airstrikes allegedly kill at least 73 civilians in northern Syria (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/20/us-airstrike-allegedly-kills-56-civilians-in-northern-syria)

Or is it only a problem when Russia kills civilians?

[Common Sense]

The civil war in Syria wouldn't even be happening if it weren't for Obama and his meddling in that country's internal affairs.

And if you're so concerned with civilian casualties, then you might want to ask what Obama is going to do about the civilian casualties the US produces in Syria.



Or is it only a problem when Russia kills civilians?

Not to diminish the 73 civilians killed, but Russia has reportedly killed around 2,000 civilians in the last 6 months alone.

[Tahuyaman]

Maybe Obama can ask Trump to ask his buddy Putin to cool it.

Or maybe Ivanka could ask her friend Deng to ask her boyfriend Putin?


Or maybe you could avoid making dumb comments thus embarrassing yourself?

[Ethereal]

Putin is aiming at civilian targets now, out of Iran, and this puts our President in a very precarious situation.

Russia is not aiming at civilian targets. They are aiming at rebel positions that are in close proximity to civilians, just like the US government does when it bombs its enemies.

[Tahuyaman]

We can have our ambassador talk to their ambassador.

The current administration doesn't have the credibility to talk and have anyone take it seriously.

[Common Sense]

The civil war in Syria wouldn't even be happening if it weren't for Obama and his meddling in that country's internal affairs.

And if you're so concerned with civilian casualties, then you might want to ask what Obama is going to do about the civilian casualties the US produces in Syria.



Or is it only a problem when Russia kills civilians?

The Syrain civil war started with a protest over the arrest of some kids and escalated. The FSA formed on it's own when army personnel defected.

NATO joined in efforts later.

[Ethereal]

Maybe Obama can ask Trump to ask his buddy Putin to cool it.

Or maybe Ivanka could ask her friend Deng to ask her boyfriend Putin?

Or maybe Obama can stop supporting the Salafi rebels who want to turn Syria into an Islamist theocracy.

[Common Sense]

Or maybe you could avoid making dumb comments thus embarrassing yourself?

What was dumb about my joke?

[Tahuyaman]

What was dumb about my joke?

That's proof that there is such a thing as a dumb question.

[Common Sense]

That's proof that there is such a thing as a dumb question.

It's cool if you didn't get it. Humour isn't for everyone.

[Ethereal]

And can you believe that Trump wants us to be allies with Russia?

Russia wants to defeat Islamic terrorists, just like we do.

And Russia causes civilian casualties in its war against these terrorist organizations, just like we do.

http://goo.gl/QiDtEk

So unless you object to fighting terrorists and/or causing civilian casualties in the process, I'm not sure what your problem is.

[Ethereal]

Not to diminish the 73 civilians killed, but Russia has reportedly killed around 2,000 civilians in the last 6 months alone.

The US invasion and occupation of Iraq caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths.

So if this is a numbers game, then Russia has a lot of catching up to do.

[debbietoo]

Excuse me guys if I am just learning about U.S. foreign relations! No need to call me "stupid" or make insinuations in that regard. I still don't trust Putin or Trump. Trump does nothing but trash Hillary instead of detailing what he will do for middle class America.

[Tahuyaman]

It's cool if you didn't get it. Humour isn't for everyone.

Something needs to be funny before it can be classified as humor.

[Tahuyaman]

Excuse me guys if I am just learning about U.S. foreign relations! No need to call me "stupid" or make insinuations in that regard.


Who called you stupid?

[Common Sense]

Something needs to be funny before it can be classified as humor.


Humour is subjective.

[Ethereal]

The Syrain civil war started with a protest over the arrest of some kids and escalated. The FSA formed on it's own when army personnel defected.

NATO joined in efforts later.

Actually, the policy of "regime change" in Syria was in effect as early as 2006.


U.S. secretly backed Syrian opposition groups, cables released by WikiLeaks show (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html)

General Wesley Clark admitted this was the intent of the US government as far back as 2001.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

How many coups, invasions, and proxy wars does the US government have to start before people will wake up?

[Tahuyaman]

Humour is subjective.

It also helps if it's somewhat original. Your dumb comment was far from original.

[Ethereal]

Excuse me guys if I am just learning about U.S. foreign relations! No need to call me "stupid" or make insinuations in that regard. I still don't trust Putin or Trump. Trump does nothing but trash Hillary instead of detailing what he will do for middle class America.

Hillary Clinton deserves to be trashed, even if it's by a clown like Trump.

Her policy of "regime change" in Syria is one of the biggest reasons why this civil war is still happening.

During her tenure as Secretary of State, she was working with the Saudis to funnel arms, money, and personnel to the rebellion in Syria, including groups like al-Nusra, the AQ affiliate in Syria.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, one of the most regressive, anti-democratic regimes in the world, is bombing a popular uprising in Yemen and causing scores of civilian casualties in the process. But nobody seems to mind that.

[Tahuyaman]

Actually, the policy of "regime change" in Syria was in effect as early as 2006.



General Wesley Clark admitted this was the intent of the US government as far back as 2001.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

How many coups, invasions, and proxy wars does the US government have to start before people will wake up?

Then Col. Clark was my brigade commander when I was a Platoon SGT in the 4th infantry division. He was the absolute worst commander I ever had. He was also the most arrogant. What he knew about war fighting could fit into a thimble. I don't know of one commissioned officer or NCO in the brigade who respected him as a leader.

He rose to his position because of a personal relationship with a very powerful elected official.

[Peter1469]

The current administration doesn't have the credibility to talk and have anyone take it seriously.

They are probably just doing vodka shots anyway.

[Peter1469]

Russia is not aiming at civilian targets. They are aiming at rebel positions that are in close proximity to civilians, just like the US government does when it bombs its enemies.

Our munitions cause collateral damage. Russia's cause a heck of a lot more.

[Ethereal]

Then Col. Clark was my brigade commander when I was a Platoon SGT in the 4th infantry division. He was the absolute worst commander I ever had. He was also the most arrogant. What he knew about war fighting could fit into a thimble. I don't know of one commissioned officer or NCO in the brigade who respected him as a leader.

He rose to his position because of a personal relationship with a very powerful elected official.

I'm no fan of Clark. He's a war-mongering idiot as far as I'm concerned. But his testimony is corroborated by lots of evidence.

[Ethereal]

Our munitions cause collateral damage. Russia's cause a heck of a lot more.

According to who? The US government and the corporate media who lie about everything?

[Ethereal]

An older interview with legendary journalist, Seymour Hersh, about Syria:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfStSGG4mOY

[donttread]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?

Stay the fuck out of it. There are no stable factions in Syria.

[Tahuyaman]

I'm no fan of Clark. He's a war-mongering idiot as far as I'm concerned. But his testimony is corroborated by lots of evidence.

Based on my experience with him, I can't respect anything he says.

[Peter1469]

Hillary Clinton deserves to be trashed, even if it's by a clown like Trump.

Her policy of "regime change" in Syria is one of the biggest reasons why this civil war is still happening.

During her tenure as Secretary of State, she was working with the Saudis to funnel arms, money, and personnel to the rebellion in Syria, including groups like al-Nusra, the AQ affiliate in Syria.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, one of the most regressive, anti-democratic regimes in the world, is bombing a popular uprising in Yemen and causing scores of civilian casualties in the process. But nobody seems to mind that.

The Benghazi mission (CIA, not DoS) was for gun running- scooping up Gadhafi's stockpiles and shipping it to the "moderate" Syrian rebels.

[debbietoo]

Syrian and Russian forces targeting hospitals as a strategy of war

Russian and Syrian government forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months to pave the way for ground forces to advance on northern Aleppo, an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found.

Even as Syria’s fragile ceasefire deal was being hammered out, Syrian government forces and their allies intensified their attacks on medical facilities.

“Syrian and Russian forces have been deliberately attacking health facilities in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But what is truly egregious is that wiping out hospitals appears to have become part of their military strategy,” said Tirana Hassan, Crisis Response Director at Amnesty International.

Source:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/03/syrian-and-russian-forces-targeting-hospitals-as-a-strategy-of-war/

Please read this article if you don't think Russia is not targeting hospitals.

[Peter1469]

According to who? The US government and the corporate media who lie about everything?

They are using their new thermobaric weapons.

[Peter1469]

Stay the fuck out of it. There are no stable factions in Syria.

Assad could be....

[Crepitus]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?
Have another beer and watch it happen, just like the rest of us.

[Ethereal]

Syrian and Russian forces targeting hospitals as a strategy of war

Russian and Syrian government forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months to pave the way for ground forces to advance on northern Aleppo, an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found.
Even as Syria’s fragile ceasefire deal was being hammered out, Syrian government forces and their allies intensified their attacks on medical facilities.
“Syrian and Russian forces have been deliberately attacking health facilities in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But what is truly egregious is that wiping out hospitals appears to have become part of their military strategy,” said Tirana Hassan, Crisis Response Director at Amnesty International.
Source:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/03/syrian-and-russian-forces-targeting-hospitals-as-a-strategy-of-war/

Please read this article if you don't think Russia is not targeting hospitals.





But when the US bombs a hospital, it's a mistake, right?


Kunduz hospital attack: US forces did not act on MSF warnings for 17 min (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/medecins-sans-frontieres-kunduz-hospital-attack-us-military-17-minutes-to-act)

Almost anything you can accuse the Russian government of doing, the US government is guilty of ten times over.

But because westerners are brainwashed into believing we're "exceptional", they refuse to acknowledge these parallels, opting instead to wallow in blatant, self-aggrandizing double-standards.

[Ethereal]

Have another beer and watch it happen, just like the rest of us.

If only that were our actual policy in Syria.

[Hal Jordan]

What can the President do? A number of things.

What should he do? Nothing.

[Peter1469]

But when the US bombs a hospital, it's a mistake, right?



Almost anything you can accuse the Russian government of doing, the US government is guilty of ten times over.

But because westerners are brainwashed into believing we're "exceptional", they refuse to acknowledge these parallels, opting instead to wallow in blatant, self-aggrandizing double-standards.

I may post an article about that- SoF is getting burnt out. On that mission the ODA had been in a 4 day battle and they were not that familiar with the city.

[Tahuyaman]

Some people are getting dumber by the minute.

[Tahuyaman]

Almost anything you can accuse the Russian government of doing, the US government is guilty of ten times over.


Who's feeding you that kind of propaganda?

[Peter1469]

The international community likes to say it is illegal for the West and Russia to bomb civilians. They ignore the fact that it is illegal for combatants to use civilians as shields or to set up their camps and hardware next to civilians or protected sites.

Civilians and certain sites (hospitals, schools, etc.) are protected under international law. However, they lose that protection when a belligerent uses them as shields or otherwise puts them in danger by their presence. It is more complicated than that: the other side has obligations as well- there are four factors to consider such as military necessity and proportionality (don't carpet bomb a town to get a sniper in the minaret). If those considerations lean in favor of attack, the legal issues are satisfied. The question now is a political one.

I never gave this advice, but a JAG I knew did- when part of a targeting cell (JAGs give international law legal advice in military operations) : how bad does the commander want it? He thought that would satisfy all 4 factors. I don't.

And that is what most of these stories about the US and collateral damage amount to. Russia may fail under the proportionality aspect mentioned above. But that is subjective.

[AeonPax]

`
`
Obama should just keep bombing his own civilian targets, as per usual.

[donttread]

I invite all opinions. Something needs to be done about this humanitarian injustice. I know the U.S. has an agreement called "ISIL" with Russia to fight ISIS, yet look how they are targeting civilians, and I assume they are doing so not in error.

What can the president do and what should he do?


I don't know what did Obama do about the son of bitch that drone bombed all those villages in Pakistani supposedly stalking an endless supply of "terrorist numbertwo men"? Oh wait that's right Obama WAS that SON OF A BITCH!

[exploited]

Who's feeding you that kind of propaganda?

It isn't propaganda, to be honest. While I am extremely supportive of the West in general, you have to be blind to not see the absolutely insane level of civilian casualties we've caused over the past forty years.

[debbietoo]

This is Russia and Syria, not the U.S., who is targeting the hospitals. Are you reading the article. Look at the source of the article. It's not biased.

[debbietoo]

An older interview with legendary journalist, Seymour Hersh, about Syria:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfStSGG4mOY

Yes, I agree with you here. Obama was wrong. He is just extending Bush's war on terrorism. It's wrong. We need to pull all our troops out of these countries now, including Iraq.

[Tahuyaman]

It isn't propaganda, to be honest. While I am extremely supportive of the West in general, you have to be blind to not see the absolutely insane level of civilian casualties we've caused over the past forty years.


Claiming that the US has committed ten times the number of atrocities as Russia or the former Soviet Union is pure mindless propaganda.

[debbietoo]

Claiming that the US has committed ten times the number of atrocities as Russia or the former Soviet Union is pure mindless propaganda.

That's my point. It's Russia who is targeting the hospitals in Syria. Not us.

[valley ranch]

I think Russia is supporting Syria. Nether Syria nor Russia has any intent to harm the Syrian People. The Muslim Crazies that are armed by us, the Turks and the Saudi are there to do as much damage to Syria as well as steal the oil and transport it to Turkey.
Russia is not a problem to Syria, all others who carry weapons in or into are!
====================
Russia has thrown off the Communist yoke while we are just being fitted for ours.

[exploited]

Claiming that the US has committed ten times the number of atrocities as Russia or the former Soviet Union is pure mindless propaganda.

I wasn't really talking about the Soviet Union.

[Tahuyaman]

I wasn't really talking about the Soviet Union.

nice deflection, but I don't believe you are the one who made the ignorant comment.

[Peter1469]

It isn't propaganda, to be honest. While I am extremely supportive of the West in general, you have to be blind to not see the absolutely insane level of civilian casualties we've caused over the past forty years.

Its like Dresden. Horrible.

[Peter1469]

This is Russia and Syria, not the U.S., who is targeting the hospitals. Are you reading the article. Look at the source of the article. It's not biased.

Russia doesn't care- if the enemy is near it, it gets blown up.

[Peter1469]

Claiming that the US has committed ten times the number of atrocities as Russia or the former Soviet Union is pure mindless propaganda.

Or just mindless....

[waltky]

Let the Syrian moderates...

... fling a few Stinger missiles at `em...

... it worked in Afghanistan.

[Peter1469]

Let the Syrian moderates...

... fling a few Stinger missiles at `em...

... it worked in Afghanistan.

Officially we are not giving them advanced Manpads. Although that was part of the Benghazi gun running scheme. And they have shot down a few planes and a couple of helicopters- although some of those were definitely not done with manpads.

[AeonPax]

`
`
The fact is, no country has the moral high ground here, least of all the US military under Obama. The US has it's own list of tens of thousands of innocent killed for economic reasons. To argue moral superiority at this stage, is absolutely childish and stupid.

[Ethereal]

Who's feeding you that kind of propaganda?

Since the end of the Cold War, the US government has invaded, bombed, and/or occupied at least four countries (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Libya) and these interventions have caused hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. Russia's record of interventionism in that same time frame does not come close. And that doesn't even include covert action like the coup in Ukraine or the proxy war in Syria. It's absolutely amazing how much death and destruction the US government is causing in the world. But you are in such deep denial that you call this reality "propaganda".

[Ethereal]

This is Russia and Syria, not the U.S., who is targeting the hospitals. Are you reading the article. Look at the source of the article. It's not biased.

Do you think the US hasn't blown up hospitals, too?

And what makes you think the source isn't biased?

[Ethereal]

Yes, I agree with you here. Obama was wrong. He is just extending Bush's war on terrorism. It's wrong. We need to pull all our troops out of these countries now, including Iraq.

Then you shouldn't be supporting Hillary Clinton because she is going to expand the war on terror and escalate tensions with Russia. Of all the presidential candidates now running, she is far and away the most likely to start WWIII.

[Ethereal]

nice deflection, but I don't believe you are the one who made the ignorant comment.

I wasn't talking about the Soviet Union either. That entity has been dissolved for over two decades. And since then, the US government has caused massive amounts of civilian casualties, far more than Russia. It's not even remotely close. The sanctions on Iraq alone were estimated to have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE

Do you have an example of a foreign policy that Russia has undertaken since the end of the cold war that caused the deaths of half a million civilians, mostly children? No? Didn't think so.

[Ethereal]

Or just mindless....

I'm mindless because I think the US government has caused more civilian deaths since the end of the cold war than the Russian government?

So I imagined the millions of civilians who have died as a result of US government sanctions, coups, proxy wars, invasions, bombings, and occupations?

[William]

I'm mindless because I think the US government has caused more civilian deaths since the end of the cold war than the Russian government?

So I imagined the millions of civilians who have died as a result of US government sanctions, coups, proxy wars, invasions, bombings, and occupations?

Anyone who honestly criticises what his nationality did, and is doing, will always be attacked by nationalists. It doesn't matter if the nation is the USA, or the UK, or Australia, or Russia. You will always be called names by the flag wavers, but I respect you for having the guts to be honest, even if it makes you unpopular with the herd.

[FindersKeepers]

Excuse me guys if I am just learning about U.S. foreign relations! No need to call me "stupid" or make insinuations in that regard. I still don't trust Putin or Trump. Trump does nothing but trash Hillary instead of detailing what he will do for middle class America.



You're not stupid, but it is a little difficult to debate someone who has their mind made up even before they learn the basics.

This isn't about Trump, so we can leave him out of this one.

Putin is our enemy, but at the same time, he's made smarter moves than Obama has in regard to Syria. Many here have advised you that Obama was (at least partially) responsible for the war in Syria and the death toll. That is correct. Obama, from the start, backed the militants who wanted to get rid of Assad. Putin stepped in and called Obama's bluff. Obama backed down.

Meanwhile, Obama was messing around in the Ukraine, funding the ouster of a duly elected President, which threw that nation in to chaos and resulted in the Crimea voting to join Russia rather than remain with the Ukraine.

Obama has restarted the cold war against Russia, a war former presidents worked so hard to end.

Hillary, unfortunately, is much more of a jingoist than Obama is, so if you don't like war -- don't vote for her. She's made comments in the past about "obliterating" Iran if they step out of line.

If you enjoy war without end -- vote for the Hill.

[FindersKeepers]

Anyone who honestly criticises what his nationality did, and is doing, will always be attacked by nationalists. It doesn't matter if the nation is the USA, or the UK, or Australia, or Russia. You will always be called names by the flag wavers, but I respect you for having the guts to be honest, even if it makes you unpopular with the herd.



Our problem in the US is one of partisanship; nationalist sentiment doesn't really play a role here. At least not a major roll.

The anti-war crowd reached its zenith during GWB's war in Iraq, and they pulled the support of nearly the entire democratic party. They pulled it to such an extent that the media outlets swung in that direction.

Then, we elected Obama and everything changed. While a few true blues opposed, and even called for impeaching, him when he led the attack on Libya that ended up in the capture, torture and execution of that leader, the majority of the democratic party fell silent. The media (for the most part) turned a blind eye and Obama was able to violate our War Powers Resolution with impunity.

The nationalists (on the right side of the spectrum) fell silent in their criticism of those who criticized the President for US involvement in the Middle East. You won't find the nationalists defending *most* of Obama's military actions for one reason -- those actions run counter to what former presidents have done.

We're at a precipice here, and that's created the atmosphere in which Trump could rise. It's not that Trump has a lot of true support -- it's that he represents a diametric change from Obama, whom the nationalists believe has damaged our nation from within.

But, and this is the big "but," the nationalists are not alone in that sentiment. A huge portion of Americans feel Obama damaged us.

Whatever happens in this election, those who oppose globalization are not going to go away.

[Peter1469]

`
`
The fact is, no country has the moral high ground here, least of all the US military under Obama. The US has it's own list of tens of thousands of innocent killed for economic reasons. To argue moral superiority at this stage, is absolutely childish and stupid.

Arguing the moral high ground is for public opinion. It has nothing to do with advancing national interests.

[Hal Jordan]

Putin is our enemy

Why? Why exactly is Putin our enemy?

[Ethereal]

Putin is our enemy...

Not by his choice then, because Putin wants cooperation and mutual respect between the USA and Russia.

But the cabal of war-mongering psychopaths who have hijacked our government aren't interested in that. War and conflict is much more profitable for them.

[debbietoo]

Why is Putin targeting civilians and hospitals in Syria? For what purpose?

[Peter1469]

Why is Putin targeting civilians and hospitals in Syria? For what purpose?

I suspect he (or rather the Russian commander in theater) is targeting enemy units sitting next to the hospital. Which is not illegal if you follow the procedures I previously mentioned.

If you were in charge of a unit would you waste your limited resources on something not the enemy?

[debbietoo]

I believe it is an international war crime to target civilians and hospitals.

Russia committing war crimes by deliberately bombing civilians and aid workers, says Amnesty International
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-civilians-war-crimes-amnesty-international-a6887096.html

[FindersKeepers]

I believe it is an international war crime to target civilians and hospitals.

Russia committing war crimes by deliberately bombing civilians and aid workers, says Amnesty International


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-civilians-war-crimes-amnesty-international-a6887096.html





War is fought on two fronts -- on the ground -- and through propaganda. To date -- we have no proof (despite your claims) that Russia is targeting either hospitals or civilians. We have accusations from Amnesty International.

Surely you know Amnesty International is not an unbiased source?

It regularly accuses Israel of various war crimes that don't hold up under investigation.

It's usually better to wait for the result of an unbiased investigation.

[Peter1469]

I believe it is an international war crime to target civilians and hospitals.

Russia committing war crimes by deliberately bombing civilians and aid workers, says Amnesty International


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-civilians-war-crimes-amnesty-international-a6887096.html




Asked and answered. I explained this already.

[Hal Jordan]

I believe it is an international war crime to target civilians and hospitals.

Russia committing war crimes by deliberately bombing civilians and aid workers, says Amnesty International


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-civilians-war-crimes-amnesty-international-a6887096.html




Targeting civilians yes, if they're collateral damage, no.

[Tahuyaman]

Not by his choice then, because Putin wants cooperation and mutual respect between the USA and Russia.

But the cabal of war-mongering psychopaths who have hijacked our government aren't interested in that. War and conflict is much more profitable for them.

with you, it's always America's fault for everything.

[Dangermouse]

War is fought on two fronts -- on the ground -- and through propaganda. To date -- we have no proof (despite your claims) that Russia is targeting either hospitals or civilians. We have accusations from Amnesty International.

Surely you know Amnesty International is not an unbiased source?

It regularly accuses Israel of various war crimes that don't hold up under investigation.

It's usually better to wait for the result of an unbiased investigation.

Israel denying something is not unbiased vindication.

[AZ Jim]

Or maybe you could avoid making dumb comments thus embarrassing yourself?Then they could get together for a swap party.

[Just AnotherPerson]

The humanitarian crisis is atrocious beyond imagining. This war is nothing more than a chess game. It is a game between the United States and Russia. It is a proxy war. They are playing with innocent peoples lives like toy soldiers. But, in the mean time real children are being bombed, real human beings are throwing themselves into the oceans with children in their arms trying to escape this awful war. Here is a link that you may find sheds some light on this current war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kq4tsLm1tQ

[Peter1469]

It is a Sunni - Shia war. Russia picked the Shia side since Assad is their ally. The US picked the anti-Assad side with little to no thought of the nature of the war. In some parts of the ME the US supports Sunnis; in others they support Shia.

The locals must think the US doesn't have a clue.

[Hal Jordan]

It is a Sunni - Shia war. Russia picked the Shia side since Assad is their ally. The US picked the anti-Assad side with little to no thought of the nature of the war. In some parts of the ME the US supports Sunnis; in others they support Shia.

The locals must think the US doesn't have a clue.

Because honestly, we really don't.

[Hal Jordan]

Nobody willing to take up the question about how Russia is our enemy?

[Peter1469]

Because honestly, we really don't.

As a nation I agree. Some of us inside the US certainly know.

[Peter1469]

Nobody willing to take up the question about how Russia is our enemy?

I wouldn't call them an enemy. I would say that they have interests and we have interests. Some conflict. Others don't. One of those areas is in slaughtering jihadists. We can do that together despite our other differences.

[Hal Jordan]

As a nation I agree. Some of us inside the US certainly know.

Agreed.

[Hal Jordan]

I wouldn't call them an enemy. I would say that they have interests and we have interests. Some conflict. Others don't. One of those areas is in slaughtering jihadists. We can do that together despite our other differences.

Again, I agree, but there are those who insist on calling Russia our enemy. In my opinion, that hasn't been true for quite some time.

[Peter1469]

Again, I agree, but there are those who insist on calling Russia our enemy. In my opinion, that hasn't been true for quite some time.

The Neocons. I posted an article about it earlier today. I think this (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/hillary-clinton-could-easily-push-america-open-conflict-17398) was it, but I may be wrong.

[Hal Jordan]

The Neocons. I posted an article about it earlier today. I think this (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/hillary-clinton-could-easily-push-america-open-conflict-17398) was it, but I may be wrong.

I wouldn't say it's just the neocons, but it does seem to be a common theme for them.

[FindersKeepers]

Israel denying something is not unbiased vindication.

No, but the results of international investigations are.

[FindersKeepers]

Again, I agree, but there are those who insist on calling Russia our enemy. In my opinion, that hasn't been true for quite some time. That was me that called Russia an enemy, but perhaps a better term would be "adversary." With Obama restarting the Cold War mentality, that's the inevitable outcome. We can't ignore that Russia has been a huge geopolitical adversary in the past few years, and nowhere more visibly than in Syria. Plus, there is overwhelming American sentiment.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/7tusvhmr3e6hudgasfx3uw.png

[Peter1469]

Russian bombing (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Russian+backfire+bombing+syria&t=brave&iax=1&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaviationist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FTu-22-Backfire-carpet.jpg)in Syria. (Using some cluster munitions too).

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaviationist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FTu-22-Backfire-carpet.jpg&f=1

[donttread]

Russian bombing (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Russian+backfire+bombing+syria&t=brave&iax=1&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaviationist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FTu-22-Backfire-carpet.jpg)in Syria. (Using some cluster munitions too).

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftheaviationist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FTu-22-Backfire-carpet.jpg&f=1

They're not killing the brown people Sykes-Picot ordered us to kill are they? If so we may have to declare war on the Russians!

[Peter1469]

They're not killing the brown people Sykes-Picot ordered us to kill are they? If so we may have to declare war on the Russians!

Can anyone translate this?

[waltky]

Uncle Ferd says...

... "Obama gonna du nuffin' about it...

... an' Putin knows it.

Just like he Dindu Nuffin'...

... when Syria crossed the red line."