What is really your Right? Why Does Society have to provide.

[zelmo1234]

There are some interesting idea being floated around in this election? Santa is bring a bag full of Goodies for all the good little Girls and Boys, if only we elect Trump or Hillary. (GOOD) being different for each side.

But We have some interesting Issues, one being College Education, Who has a right to it, and who should pay for it? And what occupations should be covered. So Questions need to be asked and answer provided and supported

#1 Is a college Education a right? Who should Qualify, Who should pay for it, and Why?

We have the minimum wage also on the left? Questions arise here too

#2 What is the correct number, Who will pay for those left behind by Automation, and Off shoring, Will inflation offset any increase in salary, will those making more than the new minimum be given increases as well.

Then on the Right you see other types of Santa Clause

#1 If you take the Corporate Tax rate to 15%, what deductions will still be in place, is that rate only give to those moving jobs to the USA, will the incentive to offshore be taken away, and what effects does this have on Revenue

#2 The Rebuilding of the Military, Will it be done at the current pricing, or will the government actually force the companies to quality standards and reasonable profits. Will the Military personnel see any of the benefits, Does a VA that actually takes care of our veterans become part of the process, and where does the money come from.

And last? Why as an American citizen do you deserve this free stuff, from the government, why are we so special that just by existing we have these rights?

[Mac-7]

There are some interesting idea being floated around in this election? Santa is bring a bag full of Goodies for all the good little Girls and Boys, if only we elect Trump or Hillary. (GOOD) being different for each side.

But We have some interesting Issues, one being College Education, Who has a right to it, and who should pay for it? And what occupations should be covered. So Questions need to be asked and answer provided and supported

#1 Is a college Education a right? Who should Qualify, Who should pay for it, and Why?

We have the minimum wage also on the left? Questions arise here too

#2 What is the correct number, Who will pay for those left behind by Automation, and Off shoring, Will inflation offset any increase in salary, will those making more than the new minimum be given increases as well.

Then on the Right you see other types of Santa Clause

#1 If you take the Corporate Tax rate to 15%, what deductions will still be in place, is that rate only give to those moving jobs to the USA, will the incentive to offshore be taken away, and what effects does this have on Revenue

#2 The Rebuilding of the Military, Will it be done at the current pricing, or will the government actually force the companies to quality standards and reasonable profits. Will the Military personnel see any of the benefits, Does a VA that actually takes care of our veterans become part of the process, and where does the money come from.

And last? Why as an American citizen do you deserve this free stuff, from the government, why are we so special that just by existing we have these rights?

You list #1 as a gift to the rightwing as if the typical conservative is a Wall St banker or the head of G.E. instead of average working Americans which most conservatives are.

I think most of the corporate ceo's pushing jobs overseas are typical liberals who have been raised to believe that America is not special and love of country is a bad thing.

[zelmo1234]

You list #1 as a gift to the rightwing as if the typical conservative is a Wall St banker or the head of G.E. instead of average working Americans which most conservatives are.

I think most of the corporate ceo's pushing jobs overseas are typical liberals who have been raised to believe that America is not special and love of country is a bad thing.

Investment bankers and GE would be crushed by the 15% tax, they pay almost nothing now. And I am being honest, there is not enough information to know if it is a good think or not.

And The reason for offshoring is not political, it is profit, so I suggest that you take those Rose colored Glasses off and understand that at the present time there is NO difference between the parties. It is just who they are giving their welfare too.

Now That is not to say that I am not for the lower corporate tax rate, it would certainly help me to expand my companies. that savings alone would allow me to hire and equip 2 more crews, one Remodel, one New Construction.

That is 22 workers

But what about the company that is not able to expand? Is it just a Gift? What should be the requirements, and If it drives up public debt, does the devalued dollar off set any good.

You can just question your opposition. that is why we are here at the point of having to elect Trump or Clinton? That is the Choice between a Shit Burger and A Turd Sandwich.

I think that it was Jefferson that said "Question everything Boldly, even the very Existence of God"

We stopped doing that with our government and that is exactly why we are here today.

[FindersKeepers]

How far we've fallen from JFK's admonition:

"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." ~ JFK

[Standing Wolf]

You list #1 as a gift to the rightwing as if the typical conservative is a Wall St banker or the head of G.E. instead of average working Americans which most conservatives are.

I hate to be the one to break the unhappy news to you, Mac, but the vast majority of "liberals" are working Americans, too. And it's not just the kids from "liberal" families who are hoping to get some relief from the weight of student loan debt. Your view of American society tends toward being a cartoon, quite frankly.


I think most of the corporate ceo's pushing jobs overseas are typical liberals who have been raised to believe that America is not special and love of country is a bad thing.

Wow. Your disconnect with the real world is truly breathtaking, Mac.

[DGUtley]

Personally, I don't think anybody has the right to anything not set forth in the Constitution. This concept that the government owes you anything just because you exist is pathetic. I know quite a few that have been dirt poor, paid their student loan debt and asked for nothing from nobody we all lived in the ghetto as we paid off our school loans. Relief from the weight of student loans translates (in my humble opinion) to not accepting the consequences of your own decisions and conduct -- typical of today's society. The young lawyers in my office tell me that the loans nowadays are such that you pay on them for x years and then "poof" they disappear. Isn't that relief enough?

Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.

[Docthehun]

Personally, I don't think anybody has the right to anything not set forth in the Constitution. This concept that the government owes you anything just because you exist is pathetic. I know quite a few that have been dirt poor, paid their student loan debt and asked for nothing from nobody we all lived in the ghetto as we paid off our school loans. Relief from the weight of student loans translates (in my humble opinion) to not accepting the consequences of your own decisions and conduct -- typical of today's society. The young lawyers in my office tell me that the loans nowadays are such that you pay on them for x years and then "poof" they disappear. Isn't that relief enough?

Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.

Stellar post Counselor.

[DGUtley]

Stellar post Counselor.

Doc, nobody knows anything about sacrifice these days, it seems.

[Docthehun]

Doc, nobody knows anything about sacrifice these days, it seems.

My program was to find the lowest standard of living that was comfortable, regardless of how much money I made. There's an enormous amount of tranquility and happiness in living like a monk. Everything else is cream on the top which I primarily use for good deeds. Growing up in a poor household has reaped a lifetime of benefits. Life for Doc is indeed, good. Tough program to sell in a "me" society.

[DGUtley]

My program was to find the lowest standard of living that was comfortable, regardless of how much money I made. There's an enormous amount of tranquility and happiness in living like a monk. Everything else is cream on the top which I primarily use for good deeds. Growing up in a poor household has reaped a lifetime of benefits. Life for Doc is indeed, good. Tough program to sell in a "me" society.

I've always believed in living modestly, I've got shirts and shoes older than my kids. The dog and I sit on the front porch and watch the neighbors with their Mercedes and BMW's and I just chuckle.

[MisterVeritis]

How far we've fallen from JFK's admonition:

"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." ~ JFK
The sentiment sounds good. But it is horribly flawed. JFK said country but meant government. Fuck him.

We need to restore Adam Smith's invisible hand. The greatest good for the greatest numbers come when we are free to do what is in our best interest.

[Cigar]

There are some interesting idea being floated around in this election? Santa is bring a bag full of Goodies for all the good little Girls and Boys, if only we elect Trump or Hillary. (GOOD) being different for each side.

But We have some interesting Issues, one being College Education, Who has a right to it, and who should pay for it? And what occupations should be covered. So Questions need to be asked and answer provided and supported

#1 Is a college Education a right? Who should Qualify, Who should pay for it, and Why?

We have the minimum wage also on the left? Questions arise here too

#2 What is the correct number, Who will pay for those left behind by Automation, and Off shoring, Will inflation offset any increase in salary, will those making more than the new minimum be given increases as well.

Then on the Right you see other types of Santa Clause

#1 If you take the Corporate Tax rate to 15%, what deductions will still be in place, is that rate only give to those moving jobs to the USA, will the incentive to offshore be taken away, and what effects does this have on Revenue

#2 The Rebuilding of the Military, Will it be done at the current pricing, or will the government actually force the companies to quality standards and reasonable profits. Will the Military personnel see any of the benefits, Does a VA that actually takes care of our veterans become part of the process, and where does the money come from.

And last? Why as an American citizen do you deserve this free stuff, from the government, why are we so special that just by existing we have these rights?

I look at it this way ...

If this country wants to call itself the Greatest, then maybe it should start acting like it.

GREAT COUNTRIES INVEST IN IT'S GREATEST NATURAL RESOURCE ... It's Own People.

It's starts with keeping them healthy and alive - Health Care
It's starts with Investments in Educating them - We obviously believe it's vital for Military Leaders, why not for everything else?
It's starts with Investments in our own Infrastructure - would you invest in a leaky roof in your own house?

Why fight for a country what won't fight for you unless you're among the 1%.

[Tahuyaman]

....Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.

Do we have the moral obligation to take care of those who can take care of themselves but won't for whatever reason?

[DGUtley]

Do we have the moral obligation to take care of those who can take care of themselves but won't for whatever reason?

In my opinion, no.

[Tahuyaman]

In my opinion, no.


Then what do you do with the millions of able bodied and capable people who refuse to provide for their own support?

[Peter1469]

Personally, I don't think anybody has the right to anything not set forth in the Constitution. This concept that the government owes you anything just because you exist is pathetic. I know quite a few that have been dirt poor, paid their student loan debt and asked for nothing from nobody we all lived in the ghetto as we paid off our school loans. Relief from the weight of student loans translates (in my humble opinion) to not accepting the consequences of your own decisions and conduct -- typical of today's society. The young lawyers in my office tell me that the loans nowadays are such that you pay on them for x years and then "poof" they disappear. Isn't that relief enough?

Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.

Cannot being the important part.

[MisterVeritis]

There are some interesting idea being floated around in this election? Santa is bring a bag full of Goodies for all the good little Girls and Boys, if only we elect Trump or Hillary. (GOOD) being different for each side.

But We have some interesting Issues, one being College Education, Who has a right to it, and who should pay for it? And what occupations should be covered. So Questions need to be asked and answer provided and supported

#1 Is a college Education a right? Who should Qualify, Who should pay for it, and Why?

We have the minimum wage also on the left? Questions arise here too

#2 What is the correct number, Who will pay for those left behind by Automation, and Off shoring, Will inflation offset any increase in salary, will those making more than the new minimum be given increases as well.

Then on the Right you see other types of Santa Clause

#1 If you take the Corporate Tax rate to 15%, what deductions will still be in place, is that rate only give to those moving jobs to the USA, will the incentive to offshore be taken away, and what effects does this have on Revenue

#2 The Rebuilding of the Military, Will it be done at the current pricing, or will the government actually force the companies to quality standards and reasonable profits. Will the Military personnel see any of the benefits, Does a VA that actually takes care of our veterans become part of the process, and where does the money come from.

And last? Why as an American citizen do you deserve this free stuff, from the government, why are we so special that just by existing we have these rights?
Rights are limits on governments. Nothing more.

[MisterVeritis]

Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.
The nation has no moral obligations. It has a Constitution to limit the damage government can do. If you believe you have a moral obligation to do something for someone then get off your butt and get to it.

[MisterVeritis]

Stellar post Counselor.
He fucked it up at the end.

[MisterVeritis]

I look at it this way ...

If this country wants to call itself the Greatest, then maybe it should start acting like it.

GREAT COUNTRIES INVEST IN IT'S GREATEST NATURAL RESOURCE ... It's Own People.

It's starts with keeping them healthy and alive - Health Care
It's starts with Investments in Educating them - We obviously believe it's vital for Military Leaders, why not for everything else?
It's starts with Investments in our own Infrastructure - would you invest in a leaky roof in your own house?

Why fight for a country what won't fight for you unless you're among the 1%.
Socialism for all, folks.

[DGUtley]

Then what do you do with the millions of able bodied and capable people who refuse to provide for their own support?

Make them work? The problem with my statement is that thanks to the nanny state we now have generations that don't know how to work or the benefit of hard work.


The nation has no moral obligations. It has a Constitution to limit the damage government can do. If you believe you have a moral obligation to do something for someone then get off your butt and get to it.

1. I respectfully disagree. I think that we, as a nation have a basic moral foundation and with that comes the moral obligation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves. In my America, the children and the elderly don't go hungry.
2. I do. As much as I can.

[MisterVeritis]

Make them work? The problem with my statement is that thanks to the nanny state we now have generations that don't know how to work or the benefit of hard work.



1. I respectfully disagree. I think that we, as a nation have a basic moral foundation and with that comes the moral obligation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves. In my America, the children and the elderly don't go hungry.
2. I do. As much as I can.
That is not the Nation's (government's) problem. The Federal government has no moral obligations. That road leads to serfdom.

The Federal government is constrained, Constitutionally, although no longer in practice. If you do not work neither shall you eat.

[zelmo1234]

I hate to be the one to break the unhappy news to you, Mac, but the vast majority of "liberals" are working Americans, too. And it's not just the kids from "liberal" families who are hoping to get some relief from the weight of student loan debt. Your view of American society tends toward being a cartoon, quite frankly.



Wow. Your disconnect with the real world is truly breathtaking, Mac.

If they borrowed money and went to college and now have debt? Pay off the debt.

If they studied underwater basket weaving and can't get a good job? That is on them. Not us.

I paid for my kids college, and they can pay for theirs.

[zelmo1234]

I look at it this way ...

If this country wants to call itself the Greatest, then maybe it should start acting like it.

GREAT COUNTRIES INVEST IN IT'S GREATEST NATURAL RESOURCE ... It's Own People.

It's starts with keeping them healthy and alive - Health Care
It's starts with Investments in Educating them - We obviously believe it's vital for Military Leaders, why not for everything else?
It's starts with Investments in our own Infrastructure - would you invest in a leaky roof in your own house?

Why fight for a country what won't fight for you unless you're among the 1%.

I agree with everything that you have said.

Can you show me any cases of where people were denied Healthcare in the USA based on their ability to pay?

Education, we spend more in the USA than any other nation on earth we just don't hold teachers and students accountable.

As for investing in the 1%??? Democrats have been in the Whitehouse for nearly 8 years? What did you think was going to happen.

And it also helps to remember that what made this very young nation, the richest and Greatest in the world had to do with hard work and personal responsibility, not free crap from the government.

[zelmo1234]

Then what do you do with the millions of able bodied and capable people who refuse to provide for their own support?

Nothing, they are capable of doing for themselves.

Freedom has it's price, and if people choose to starve? Who are you to take that away form them.

[Bethere]

I've always believed in living modestly, I've got shirts and shoes older than my kids. The dog and I sit on the front porch and watch the neighbors with their Mercedes and BMW's and I just chuckle.

It is shocking how much the three of us have in common.

[Subdermal]

It is shocking how much the three of us have in common.

Including IP address.

[Tahuyaman]

Make them work?


But they refuse to work.

[Tahuyaman]

Nothing, they are capable of doing for themselves.

Freedom has it's price, and if people choose to starve? Who are you to take that away form them.

I say let them starve if they choose to. Liberals disagree.

[AZ Jim]

Then what do you do with the millions of able bodied and capable people who refuse to provide for their own support?You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.

[Peter1469]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.

Blame your president's flaccid economy.

[Mac-7]

Investment bankers and GE would be crushed by the 15% tax, they pay almost nothing now. And I am being honest, there is not enough information to know if it is a good think or not.

And The reason for offshoring is not political, it is profit,

so I suggest that you take those Rose colored Glasses off and understand that at the present time there is NO difference between the parties. It is just who they are giving their welfare too.

Now That is not to say that I am not for the lower corporate tax rate, it would certainly help me to expand my companies. that savings alone would allow me to hire and equip 2 more crews, one Remodel, one New Construction.

That is 22 workers

But what about the company that is not able to expand? Is it just a Gift? What should be the requirements, and If it drives up public debt, does the devalued dollar off set any good.

You can just question your opposition. that is why we are here at the point of having to elect Trump or Clinton? That is the Choice between a $#@! Burger and A Turd Sandwich.

I think that it was Jefferson that said "Question everything Boldly, even the very Existence of God"

We stopped doing that with our government and that is exactly why we are here today.

The decision to allow free trade which means a flood of cheap chinese products into America is a political decision.

Now faced with that political decision corporations are doing the only thing they can do to survive.

bleeding heart liberals and stupid free trade libertarians are primarily to blame for offshoring and the loss of jobs in America.

[Bethere]

Personally, I don't think anybody has the right to anything not set forth in the Constitution.

Having said all that, I also believe that we have a moral obligation as a nation to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves.

Me and the ninth amendment disagree with your first point.

The ninth amendment states that any rights not specifically granted to the people by the constitution are not necessarily denied to them either

But I concur on the second.

[DGUtley]

That is not the Nation's (government's) problem. The Federal government has no moral obligations. That road leads to serfdom. The Federal government is constrained, Constitutionally, although no longer in practice. If you do not work neither shall you eat.

I get it, I do. There's some people that charities just cannot reach.

[DGUtley]

Me and the ninth amendment disagree with your first point. The ninth amendment states that any rights not specifically granted to the people by the constitution are not necessarily denied to them either But I concur on the second.

The OP was what does "society have to provide". I took that as goodies, not rights. I think we're in agreement here.

[FindersKeepers]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.



If you are an unemployed person and you want employment but none exists that suits you -- you still have a choice -- start your own business.

[DGUtley]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.

I'm sorry, Dear Leader keeps telling us that they have to import people b/c there's jobs that Americans just won't do and I see "help wanted" advertisements all over the place. I'm not sure what you mean by "not enough jobs".

[Peter1469]

The OP was what does "society have to provide". I took that as goodies, not rights. I think we're in agreement here.

Yes, that is what the OP is talking about.

[Docthehun]

The OP was what does "society have to provide". I took that as goodies, not rights. I think we're in agreement here.

Mark me in as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall anything beyond, "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

[Docthehun]

I'm sorry, Dear Leader keeps telling us that they have to import people b/c there's jobs that Americans just won't do and I see "help wanted" advertisements all over the place. I'm not sure what you mean by "not enough jobs".

The trucking industry alone has 55,000 open driving slots.

[Tahuyaman]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.

The question is, what do you do with the ones who refuse to work?

[Tahuyaman]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.

I did think about it. I think you're not smart enough to answer the question.

[MisterVeritis]

You do realize there are not enough jobs for everyone who wants to work right? I don't mean now any less than I mean historically, think about it or get a grownup to help you.
Return the Federal government to its Constitutional leash and we will have plenty of jobs.

[MisterVeritis]

I get it, I do. There's some people that charities just cannot reach.
Those people are not my problem. The Federal government has no authority whatever to take money from one person to give to another. If there is some unmet need let an individual rise up to meet it. Caring for people is not a federal government responsibility.

Pretending it is always leads to tyranny. That is how we arrived where we are.

[Tahuyaman]

Return the Federal government to its Constitutional leash and we will have plenty of jobs.


That's not not going to happen because too many people now believe our rights originate from government.

[FindersKeepers]

Mark me in as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall anything beyond, "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".



It's in that "pursuit of happiness" clause that everything gets tangled.

[Mac-7]

It's in that "pursuit of happiness" clause that everything gets tangled.

Only weak minded people manage to think that involves an entitlement for everyone who cant keep up

[FindersKeepers]

Only weak minded people manage to think that involves an entitlement for everyone who cant keep up



You nailed it.

While they have the "right" to pursue happiness, they don't have the right to pursue it at the expense of another.