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View Full Version : tPF How to make the first 2 years of college Free, and do it without breaking the bank!



zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 07:27 AM
We are told that everyone now is entitled to Free College Education, even though not everyone is smart enough or even wants it.

But the left is hell bent on destroying more of the economy by doing so, And this means that some one has to be an adult and figure out how to help the people.

So here is the plan and it would provide the basics of the first 2 years of any college education, OR 2 years of vocational training.

First, the Teachers Unions have succeeded in securing above average Yearly wages and benefits for 8 months work.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/united-states

$58,700.00 So we need to make these 12 month positions And Children will be going to school year around. This will require very little increase in the cost per student per year.

This provides the Current K-12 education in 10 years. and then with the help of the Community colleges around the country. the Child would spend the last 2 years taking their prerequisites and / or the vocational training of their choice.

We hear from Mrs. Obama, that children regress over the summer if they are not taught at home and this not only corrects that, but also keeps the teachers sharp. We all know that Teaching is a calling and they want what is best for the children, so I don't see why they would object.

And the Community College system would get a huge infusion of cash, as the price we pay the public school systems for educations is 4 to 5 times what a year at a community college would be. This would allow them to work with local employers, and Universities to created the specific programs needed to help children succeed.

And while this does not get everyone free College, it does cut the price in half. Then Repeal the Guaranteed Student loan program and the cost of 4 year education will drop and well as give the students better and cheaper options for loans.

Problem solved.

Mac-7
08-21-2016, 07:56 AM
We are told that everyone now is entitled to Free College Education, even though not everyone is smart enough or even wants it.

But the left is hell bent on destroying more of the economy by doing so, And this means that some one has to be an adult and figure out how to help the people.

So here is the plan and it would provide the basics of the first 2 years of any college education, OR 2 years of vocational training.

First, the Teachers Unions have succeeded in securing above average Yearly wages and benefits for 8 months work.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/united-states

$58,700.00 So we need to make these 12 month positions And Children will be going to school year around. This will require very little increase in the cost per student per year.

This provides the Current K-12 education in 10 years. and then with the help of the Community colleges around the country. the Child would spend the last 2 years taking their prerequisites and / or the vocational training of their choice.

We hear from Mrs. Obama, that children regress over the summer if they are not taught at home and this not only corrects that, but also keeps the teachers sharp. We all know that Teaching is a calling and they want what is best for the children, so I don't see why they would object.

And the Community College system would get a huge infusion of cash, as the price we pay the public school systems for educations is 4 to 5 times what a year at a community college would be. This would allow them to work with local employers, and Universities to created the specific programs needed to help children succeed.

And while this does not get everyone free College, it does cut the price in half. Then Repeal the Guaranteed Student loan program and the cost of 4 year education will drop and well as give the students better and cheaper options for loans.

Problem solved.

The lazy public educators will not like the idea of having to work 11 1/2 months a year instead of only eight

Their attitude is "fuck the children, we gotta get ours"

At the very least they will demand more money

That doesn't mean we have to give it to them

but they won't be happy campers

Peter1469
08-21-2016, 08:00 AM
There would have to be some sort of way for families to take vacations- but that should be easy with the internet.

As far as the cost cutting aspect goes, I see how it cuts future cost increases. I don't see how colleges and universities will give up the profits they are making now.

Subdermal
08-21-2016, 08:13 AM
We are told that everyone now is entitled to Free College Education, even though not everyone is smart enough or even wants it.

But the left is hell bent on destroying more of the economy by doing so, And this means that some one has to be an adult and figure out how to help the people.

So here is the plan and it would provide the basics of the first 2 years of any college education, OR 2 years of vocational training.

First, the Teachers Unions have succeeded in securing above average Yearly wages and benefits for 8 months work.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/united-states

$58,700.00 So we need to make these 12 month positions And Children will be going to school year around. This will require very little increase in the cost per student per year.

This provides the Current K-12 education in 10 years. and then with the help of the Community colleges around the country. the Child would spend the last 2 years taking their prerequisites and / or the vocational training of their choice.

We hear from Mrs. Obama, that children regress over the summer if they are not taught at home and this not only corrects that, but also keeps the teachers sharp. We all know that Teaching is a calling and they want what is best for the children, so I don't see why they would object.

And the Community College system would get a huge infusion of cash, as the price we pay the public school systems for educations is 4 to 5 times what a year at a community college would be. This would allow them to work with local employers, and Universities to created the specific programs needed to help children succeed.

And while this does not get everyone free College, it does cut the price in half. Then Repeal the Guaranteed Student loan program and the cost of 4 year education will drop and well as give the students better and cheaper options for loans.

Problem solved.

I see what you did there. I love it, and the right people won't.

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 08:57 AM
Of course, there's no such things as 'free' college, we would just be shifting who pays for it.

What I find absolutely amazing about this is that the move is driven, at least in part, to students struggling to repay student loans. The core problem of course is that it is accepted as a universal truth that college is simply something that people have to go through to have a 'future' but really if you go through it and are coming out the other end ready for jobs that aren't good enough to pay the student loans, then you have to question whether you should've made that investment to begin with. Another meme I keep hearing bantered around are things along the lines of "Higher education will let me be who I want to be." -- which of course is undeniably your choice, but the problem here is that always remains subject to the economy at large. Ultimately the economy really isn't about what you want to be, its about what you want to be relative to what other people are willing to pay you to do. That last part really can't be emphasized enough.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 09:02 AM
It's not a bad idea, however, why not teach those two post-secondary years in the high schools? You just employ some teachers with sufficient accreditation to teach university level courses. As to vocational courses, there are already technical high schools that bring students to the apprenticeship level in the trades.

Peter1469
08-21-2016, 09:05 AM
That touches on another problem. A large percentage of high schools do not prepare students for college.

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 09:50 AM
It's not a bad idea, however, why not teach those two post-secondary years in the high schools? You just employ some teachers with sufficient accreditation to teach university level courses. As to vocational courses, there are already technical high schools that bring students to the apprenticeship level in the trades.

The location doesn't really matter of course (unless its Gitmo or Abu Ghraib :grin:), where I reside each county has a county level school where people can earn associate degrees, start nursing careers etc. Once high school ends, the question is really if there's enough students in any one location......

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 09:52 AM
That touches on another problem. A large percentage of high schools do not prepare students for college.

I found the problem isn't high school. High schools enforce a regime, teach a curriculum and that curriculum is sufficient for you to begin college. I have a gripe with college which is hust absolutely ridiculously easy. 15 credit hours is a joke and you can blow off classes, not jave to wake up early. Party 4 times a week. High school git me ready for college. College DIDN'T get me ready for the real world which hit me like a TON OF BRICKS.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 10:34 AM
The location doesn't really matter of course (unless its Gitmo or Abu Ghraib :grin:), where I reside each county has a county level school where people can earn associate degrees, start nursing careers etc. Once high school ends, the question is really if there's enough students in any one location......
Are these day or night school programs?

Currently school goes from K-12, however, if K-12 were compressed into K-10, then the last two years could be post-secondary, but still mandatory. For some, this would essentially bring them to the point where they are at least qualified for some occupations in the trades and for others they would be two years into a degree program. There really is no longer any reason why students need two months off every year. That harkens back to rural times when kids were needed for the harvest. That's not really a factor anymore, particularly in urban communities.

The only question is whether students can absorb the additional course material in that compressed time and if so, what modifications to teaching must occur in order to do so.

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 10:46 AM
Are these day or night school programs?

Currently school goes from K-12, however, if K-12 were compressed into K-10, then the last two years could be post-secondary, but still mandatory. For some, this would essentially bring them to the point where they are at least qualified for some occupations in the trades and for others they would be two years into a degree program. There really is no longer any reason why students need two months off every year. That harkens back to rural times when kids were needed for the harvest. That's not really a factor anymore, particularly in urban communities.

The only question is whether students can absorb the additional course material in that compressed time and if so, what modifications to teaching must occur in order to do so.

If you could cram 14 years into 12 that'd be great if practical.

County schools in NJ offer both day and night classes, though I'm not sure about general.availability since I never attended.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 01:26 PM
The lazy public educators will not like the idea of having to work 11 1/2 months a year instead of only eight

Their attitude is "$#@! the children, we gotta get ours"

At the very least they will demand more money

That doesn't mean we have to give it to them

but they won't be happy campers

Well we can fire their lazy asses and get people that want the job. I here there are people our there looking for work

Peter1469
08-21-2016, 01:28 PM
I found the problem isn't high school. High schools enforce a regime, teach a curriculum and that curriculum is sufficient for you to begin college. I have a gripe with college which is hust absolutely ridiculously easy. 15 credit hours is a joke and you can blow off classes, not jave to wake up early. Party 4 times a week. High school git me ready for college. College DIDN'T get me ready for the real world which hit me like a TON OF BRICKS.

Well a large number of people have to take remedial English and math in order to go to many colleges.

I went into the army 4 years after high school. So I was older in college. I took early courses. Like the ones that started at 7:30am. And I had a work ethic by that time. Which was a good thing. College and law school in New Orleans is a serious time management challenge.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 01:30 PM
There would have to be some sort of way for families to take vacations- but that should be easy with the internet.

As far as the cost cutting aspect goes, I see how it cuts future cost increases. I don't see how colleges and universities will give up the profits they are making now.

They won't have to, we pay 13750.00 on average per student, This is way more that the Cost of Community College. The students will be in school year around, and that amount will not increase dramatically because the Courses don't change, they just complete them sooner.

Then Taking that money in the last 2 years, will allow them to attend Community collage or Trade Schools in their final 2 years, and we can actually cut the amount. Adding it to the K-10 to cover the extra expenses the extended year will require.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 01:33 PM
It's not a bad idea, however, why not teach those two post-secondary years in the high schools? You just employ some teachers with sufficient accreditation to teach university level courses. As to vocational courses, there are already technical high schools that bring students to the apprenticeship level in the trades.

In some areas you might have to, but remember you are putting the Community colleges out of business then. In areas that have a good community college system, you already have the Professors, Buildings, Labs, So why create something that is already in place.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 01:39 PM
It appears that our Far left posters don't like this Idea because it does not involve new and massive taxation

Makes you wonder if they really had the child's best interests at heart.

I would love to see the Donald bring this up in one of the Debates, and Watch the left Explode

Our Common Sense Liberals like DR Who at least see the potential in this idea. And I thank them for the discussion

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 01:50 PM
How to make the first 2 years of college Free, and do it without breaking the bank!
This is what has driven conservatives away from the Republican party. They now believe that they can give just a little less free stuff to the people, or be more efficient in the way they dole out the free shit.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 03:11 PM
In some areas you might have to, but remember you are putting the Community colleges out of business then. In areas that have a good community college system, you already have the Professors, Buildings, Labs, So why create something that is already in place.
One factor would be one of throwing 16-year-olds into a school environment with 18 to 25-year-old students. That might not work out very well. Older students engage in more adult activities which younger students would invariably want to emulate. Post-secondary schools also leave it up to the students to police their own attendance because the students are basically adults who are paying to attend. There is also no tolerance for any kind of distruptive behavior as you might get with younger students. College level instructors are subject specialists, not trained in the psychology of making kids behave as you have with public school teachers. They are not graduates of teacher's college.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 03:27 PM
There would have to be some sort of way for families to take vacations- but that should be easy with the internet.

Excuse me? Why should Worker Bees get vacations? That is very expensive for the Corporations and Job Creators, and it coddles lazy employees.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 03:31 PM
How to make the first 2 years of college Free, and do it without breaking the bank!


This is what has driven conservatives away from the Republican party. They now believe that they can give just a little less free stuff to the people, or be more efficient in the way they dole out the free $#@!.

Why don't you read how I did it, and you will find that I did not spend more money!

Conservative Ideas work, Unless we get government out of College all together, the prices are going to continue to rise. Our educational system is broken anyway, so as long as we have to overhaul it, why not make it the best in the world

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 03:35 PM
One factor would be one of throwing 16-year-olds into a school environment with 18 to 25-year-old students. That might not work out very well. Older students engage in more adult activities which younger students would invariably want to emulate. Post-secondary schools also leave it up to the students to police their own attendance because the students are basically adults who are paying to attend. There is also no tolerance for any kind of distruptive behavior as you might get with younger students. College level instructors are subject specialists, not trained in the psychology of making kids behave as you have with public school teachers. They are not graduates of teacher's college.

We can find ways of doing it but the Community colleges would be our of business, because everyone would get the education in the public system? So now What.

It would be the first classes that would have the old people returning.

As for the age, I have NO issue holding students responsible. The busses would run, Parents and Children would be held accountable with fines and Jail time if they don't attend.

Remember these kids are going to have the same educations as the current 12 year programs, And if they do not complete their education? They get nothing at graduation. Not even the HS diploma.

THERE IS NO NEED TO CODDLE THESE CHILDREN They can keep up or be left behind, if they are left behind they don't move to the next grade.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 03:37 PM
Excuse me? Why should Worker Bees get vacations? That is very expensive for the Corporations and Job Creators, and it coddles lazy employees.

Why can't they have vacations? We have substitute Teachers now? Why can't we still use that system.

Why can't students use technology and due the required work before leaving for vacation?

Now I don't think that they need 4 months vacation? we can do better than that

OGIS
08-21-2016, 03:40 PM
It appears that our Far left posters don't like this Idea because it does not involve new and massive taxation

Wait, wut?

Your post is #16. The first 15 posts are: you (4), Mac (1), Peter (3), Sub Dermal (1), NewPublius (4), and Dr. Who (2). First, nine of those posts are from conservatives. Second, you exclude Dr. Who's posts from your little rant. Third, the remaining four are all by NewPublius, and no where in his four posts do I see anything about "new and massive taxation". Please show the forum where that advocacy is.

Or tell me what you are smoking.

Do you even think this sh!t out, or do your fingers just type what the voices in your head tell them to type?

OGIS
08-21-2016, 03:43 PM
Why can't they have vacations? We have substitute Teachers now? Why can't we still use that system.

Why can't students use technology and due the required work before leaving for vacation?

Now I don't think that they need 4 months vacation? we can do better than that

I totally agree. No vacations unless you are a Job Creator.

Now GBTW.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 03:59 PM
We can find ways of doing it but the Community colleges would be our of business, because everyone would get the education in the public system? So now What.

It would be the first classes that would have the old people returning.

As for the age, I have NO issue holding students responsible. The busses would run, Parents and Children would be held accountable with fines and Jail time if they don't attend.

Remember these kids are going to have the same educations as the current 12 year programs, And if they do not complete their education? They get nothing at graduation. Not even the HS diploma.


THERE IS NO NEED TO CODDLE THESE CHILDREN They can keep up or be left behind, if they are left behind they don't move to the next grade.
I doubt that the Community Colleges would be out of business. People often take more than one certificate or degree program and many also go on to get masters degrees and PHDs. Additionally, many of the kids would not have gone to community college in any event, so if they are leaving HS halfway through a program, they are much more likely to go on and complete it, which would actually increase the number of students going to those colleges. Even those attaining vocational accreditation such as electricians programs, may want to upgrade to commercial accreditation - the same with plumbing etc. Some programs simply wouldn't be possible in HS, like dental hygienist or nursing, although the science prerequisites could be covered.

I don't think that you can jail or fine people for non-attendance. Kids can legally quit school at the age of 16.

There is no need to coddle these children, but do keep in mind that there are significant differences between a 16-year-old and a 20-year-old in terms of maturity.

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 04:15 PM
Well we can fire their lazy asses and get people that want the job. I here there are people our there looking for work

Sadly, this is EXACTLY what government CANNOT do.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 04:28 PM
Sadly, this is EXACTLY what government CANNOT do.


sure they can, if the job description changes? then it changes, if the Unions go on Strike, hire new teachers.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 04:31 PM
I totally agree. No vacations unless you are a Job Creator.

Now GBTW.

This is nice, But it is a total and complete lie? I said nothing of the sort, I see no reason that Students and Teacher can't have vacations

So now that we have determined that you are lying about me, and it is YOU that don't want the teachers to have a vacation?

Can you explain why Teachers and students can't go on vacation?

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 04:33 PM
I doubt that the Community Colleges would be out of business. People often take more than one certificate or degree program and many also go on to get masters degrees and PHDs. Additionally, many of the kids would not have gone to community college in any event, so if they are leaving HS halfway through a program, they are much more likely to go on and complete it, which would actually increase the number of students going to those colleges. Even those attaining vocational accreditation such as electricians programs, may want to upgrade to commercial accreditation - the same with plumbing etc. Some programs simply wouldn't be possible in HS, like dental hygienist or nursing, although the science prerequisites could be covered.

I don't think that you can jail or fine people for non-attendance. Kids can legally quit school at the age of 16.

There is no need to coddle these children, but do keep in mind that there are significant differences between a 16-year-old and a 20-year-old in terms of maturity.

Many community collages don't have 4 year programs, I don't know of any that have PHD programs.

There is no possible way for them to stay in business without send the students through their programs. NOW they could send the professors to the HS, as long as the tuition is paid to the college.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 04:53 PM
Many community collages don't have 4 year programs, I don't know of any that have PHD programs.

There is no possible way for them to stay in business without send the students through their programs. NOW they could send the professors to the HS, as long as the tuition is paid to the college.
I was assuming that State colleges would be part of the mix.

The college professors would not be qualified to teach HS - you have to be a graduate of teacher's college to work in the pubic school system, unless they make some kind of change to the rules. I think that you'd also have significant union issues because this would reduce the number of actual HS teachers in the system.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 05:03 PM
Why don't you read how I did it, and you will find that I did not spend more money!

Conservative Ideas work, Unless we get government out of College all together, the prices are going to continue to rise. Our educational system is broken anyway, so as long as we have to overhaul it, why not make it the best in the world

Conservatives don't support government providing more free stuff to people. Even if one claims the Republican's free stuff costs less than the Democrat's free stuff.

The function of government is not to see how much stuff or other people's money they can give away to the public.

When Republicans quit trying to "out Democrat" the Democrats, they will start winning back conservative support.

Peter1469
08-21-2016, 05:16 PM
Excuse me? Why should Worker Bees get vacations? That is very expensive for the Corporations and Job Creators, and it coddles lazy employees.Families take vacations, even if it is to take the kids to the grandparents house for a week or two.

Peter1469
08-21-2016, 05:19 PM
I totally agree. No vacations unless you are a Job Creator.

Now GBTW.

The State is powerful in this one.

gamewell45
08-21-2016, 05:23 PM
We are told that everyone now is entitled to Free College Education, even though not everyone is smart enough or even wants it.

But the left is hell bent on destroying more of the economy by doing so, And this means that some one has to be an adult and figure out how to help the people.

Well Zel, since you maintain its the left that is "hell bent" on destroying more of the economy, why don't we limit free college education to just the left and left only. The right can continue to to pay for their kids education as many do nowadays, since i'm sure they don't want free education for their kids and this way you can properly and accurately assign blame to the left. You think the right would accept this or would they want to get in on the action as well???

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 05:59 PM
Well Zel, since you maintain its the left that is "hell bent" on destroying more of the economy, why don't we limit free college education to just the left and left only. The right can continue to to pay for their kids education as many do nowadays, since i'm sure they don't want free education for their kids and this way you can properly and accurately assign blame to the left. You think the right would accept this or would they want to get in on the action as well???


I'd accept that if the taxes collected to pay for the free education are limited to those who will get the free education.

I'll agree to pay as I go. I don't want free shit because I don't want to give someone the excuse to control or dictate my choices.

gamewell45
08-21-2016, 06:07 PM
I'd accept that if the taxes collected to pay for the free education are limited to those who will get the free education.

I'll agree to pay as I go. I don't want free $#@! because I don't want to give someone the excuse to control or dictate my choices.

If we did that, it would defeat Zel's concept since everyone would pay as they go and his idea would be everyone would pay taxes (as we do now) and all would get free education for whatever the time period would be.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 06:11 PM
The State is powerful in this one.

Your sarcasm meter. Fix it.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 06:13 PM
I'll agree to pay as I go. I don't want free $#@! because I don't want to give someone the excuse to control or dictate my choices.

Why do you think they need an excuse to do that?

OGIS
08-21-2016, 06:15 PM
This is nice, But it is a total and complete lie? I said nothing of the sort, I see no reason that Students and Teacher can't have vacations

So now that we have determined that you are lying about me, and it is YOU that don't want the teachers to have a vacation?

Can you explain why Teachers and students can't go on vacation?

You misunderstood. I was referring to employees in general. Lay employees! Bad employees!

And I was, of course, being sarcastic. But it appears that the conservatives here all need their sarcasm meters calibrated. Unless, of course, they are pretending to assume that I seriously meant it....

Also, have you answered my post (#23) about your post #16? I don't understand where you are getting that assertion from.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 06:24 PM
If we did that, it would defeat Zel's concept since everyone would pay as they go and his idea would be everyone would pay taxes (as we do now) and all would get free education for whatever the time period would be.


I oppose the free stuff thing.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 06:26 PM
Why do you think they need an excuse to do that?

The point is, when someone pays your way, they have a legit claim to dictate what you can or can not do.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 06:31 PM
The point is, when someone pays your way, they have a legit claim to dictate what you can or can not do.

Why?

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 06:37 PM
Why?


Because they are are paying for it. You aren't. They can stop paying for it any time they choose.

having someone else pay comes with strings attached. This shouldn't come as a big surprise.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 06:40 PM
Because they are are paying for it. You aren't. They can stop paying for it any time they choose.

having someone else pay comes with strings attached. This shouldn't come as a big surprise.

You are simply reiterating what you said earlier. Please tell me a philosophical/moral/social justification for it.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 06:41 PM
I'm done. The guy's a troll....

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 07:26 PM
I'm done. The guy's a troll....

I know, ultimately its very basic primate equity too. I scratch your back, you scratch my back. If there's no reciprocity, I can say, "I'll scratch your back for five minutes, won't comb your fur and so long as you stand on your head while I do it and if that's not agreeable to you, I'd just as soon not do it"

OGIS
08-21-2016, 07:52 PM
I'm done. The guy's a troll....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FPELc1wEvk

OGIS
08-21-2016, 07:53 PM
I know, ultimately its very basic primate equity too. I scratch your back, you scratch my back. If there's no reciprocity, I can say, "I'll scratch your back for five minutes, won't comb your fur and so long as you stand on your head while I do it and if that's not agreeable to you, I'd just as soon not do it"

You're doing better than T. Please continue. Justify primate equity.

Newpublius
08-21-2016, 08:05 PM
You see, many of the people who pay taxes show up to jobs where their respective employers attach very burdensome conditions to receive the benefit of the bargain, their paycheck. So, if you want to tax people and take the wages of people and to give it to other people without condition, that's going to rub people the wrong way.

OGIS
08-21-2016, 08:12 PM
You see, many of the people who pay taxes show up to jobs where their respective employers attach very burdensome conditions to receive the benefit of the bargain, their paycheck. So, if you want to tax people and take the wages of people and to give it to other people without condition, that's going to rub people the wrong way.

You're going the wrong direction. You had it before: primate equity. Justify it.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 08:54 PM
I was assuming that State colleges would be part of the mix.

The college professors would not be qualified to teach HS - you have to be a graduate of teacher's college to work in the pubic school system, unless they make some kind of change to the rules. I think that you'd also have significant union issues because this would reduce the number of actual HS teachers in the system.

They will not be high school students???? They will have completed their HS education in 10 years by having a summer term???

They don't need to be HS teachers. We need educators not more indoctrinators. That is the point of this entire

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 08:58 PM
Conservatives don't support government providing more free stuff to people. Even if one claims the Republican's free stuff costs less than the Democrat's free stuff.

The function of government is not to see how much stuff or other people's money they can give away to the public.

When Republicans quit trying to "out Democrat" the Democrats, they will start winning back conservative support.

Here is the thing. Once upon a time in this country we decided that we wanted to educate our children. At first it was not K-12 It was extended as the need for high educated people was needed in the work place.

Today we face the same situation. Even Factories are highly automated and require skilled labor. Extending the School Year allows for higher education in the same number of years, and will spending the same amount of money.

What is wrong with that? Now if you want to get the government out of Education completely, I am all for that.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 09:01 PM
Well Zel, since you maintain its the left that is "hell bent" on destroying more of the economy, why don't we limit free college education to just the left and left only. The right can continue to to pay for their kids education as many do nowadays, since i'm sure they don't want free education for their kids and this way you can properly and accurately assign blame to the left. You think the right would accept this or would they want to get in on the action as well???

Why don't you address the idea in the Thread,

You have Hillary's Tax the rich for free education and send more jobs and banking accounts off shore, or this system that would have nearly the same cost as we have today.

However the teachers would have to work 2.5 more months a year?

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 09:03 PM
If we did that, it would defeat Zel's concept since everyone would pay as they go and his idea would be everyone would pay taxes (as we do now) and all would get free education for whatever the time period would be.

You missed the point! In my system the only extra cost would be the cost of having the building open, and that would be off set by the savings in year 11 and 12 by sending the students to Community Colleges and Vocational Schools, which are about 1/3 the price of public education.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 09:05 PM
You misunderstood. I was referring to employees in general. Lay employees! Bad employees!

And I was, of course, being sarcastic. But it appears that the conservatives here all need their sarcasm meters calibrated. Unless, of course, they are pretending to assume that I seriously meant it....

Also, have you answered my post (#23) about your post #16? I don't understand where you are getting that assertion from.

It is a TPF thread. We have a presidential Candidate that is playing Santa Clause and we as a nation are broke.

This is a way that we could do it and spend about the same amount of money.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 09:08 PM
You are simply reiterating what you said earlier. Please tell me a philosophical/moral/social justification for it.

Actually there is NO philosophical, moral, or Social justification for the Government paying for anyone's college. with the possible exception of the GI bill, as it is an earned benefit.

If people want to go to college they should pay for it. But we have the left that is hell bent on bankrupting this country so someone has to come up with better ideas

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 09:45 PM
They will not be high school students???? They will have completed their HS education in 10 years by having a summer term???

They don't need to be HS teachers. We need educators not more indoctrinators. That is the point of this entire
The devil is in the detail. There is no greater risk of indoctrination from HS teachers or upgraded HS teachers than from post-secondary instructors.

Community college instructors are not professors by the way. Another detail you are not considering - there is a great difference between community college and university level courses. Some of your high school students will be on the academic path. Community colleges do not teach academic courses, they teach applied subject matter. Those applied courses will not count much, if at all, toward degree programs. Upgraded high school teachers who already teach academic subject matter could teach more advanced courses. Community college teachers are experts in applied subject matter and may not themselves have academic degrees. University/college "professors" must minimally possess a master's degree and in the highest tiered institutions a doctoral degree. How do you propose to deal with those students who want to become doctors, lawyers, physicists, biologists, engineers.....?

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 10:16 PM
The devil is in the detail. There is no greater risk of indoctrination from HS teachers or upgraded HS teachers than from post-secondary instructors.

Community college instructors are not professors by the way. Another detail you are not considering - there is a great difference between community college and university level courses. Some of your high school students will be on the academic path. Community colleges do not teach academic courses, they teach applied subject matter. Those applied courses will not count much, if at all, toward degree programs. Upgraded high school teachers who already teach academic subject matter could teach more advanced courses. Community college teachers are experts in applied subject matter and may not themselves have academic degrees. University/college "professors" must minimally possess a master's degree and in the highest tiered institutions a doctoral degree. How do you propose to deal with those students who want to become doctors, lawyers, physicists, biologists, engineers.....?

I don't know what they are like in your area. In MI they transfer to all MI State universities, and most the instructor in the academic courses are professors. Now Auto Shop, Welding, applied skills and Trades, not so much!

I was not aware of the vast difference in Colleges around the country. So that would have to be looked into. And I think that you would need to keep it at the state or regional level for compliance. I would not expect credits from MI to transfer to a Florida School for example.

zelmo1234
08-21-2016, 10:20 PM
Now for the Students that want to become Doctors, Lawyers any of those professions

I will get them a head start. they can come out of HS with their first 2 years of college under there belt as savings of 40K

But these professions offer the benefit of a much greater income potential. With great Risk, comes Great Reward. So if they go to a state school they have their first 2 years in. If they choose another route, then they still would be able to comp out of many of their classes.

If they don't want to borrow money and they have not saved up for college, they could go into the Military and use the GI bill, Or they can borrow the money. They have great earning potential so they can afford the loan.

I am not for Free education for whatever you want, I don't want to go to a Doctor that did it just because it was free.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 10:42 PM
OGIS is a troll. He just fances himself an intelligent troll. Fact is, he's a garden variety troll.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 10:45 PM
Here is the thing. Once upon a time in this country we decided that we wanted to educate our children. At first it was not K-12 It was extended as the need for high educated people was needed in the work place.

Today we face the same situation. Even Factories are highly automated and require skilled labor. Extending the School Year allows for higher education in the same number of years, and will spending the same amount of money.

What is wrong with that? Now if you want to get the government out of Education completely, I am all for that.


At what point do you stop providing for everyone's wants?

Trying to out do the Democrats is why the Republican Party is dying.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 10:48 PM
When others pay for your wants and needs, they attach strings.

Tahuyaman
08-21-2016, 10:49 PM
And OGIS is in fact a troll.

Dr. Who
08-21-2016, 11:03 PM
I don't know what they are like in your area. In MI they transfer to all MI State universities, and most the instructor in the academic courses are professors. Now Auto Shop, Welding, applied skills and Trades, not so much!

I was not aware of the vast difference in Colleges around the country. So that would have to be looked into. And I think that you would need to keep it at the state or regional level for compliance. I would not expect credits from MI to transfer to a Florida School for example.
Community, junior and technical colleges offer two-year undergraduate programs. These might be academic associate's degrees (undergraduate degrees that only take two years) or vocational qualifications. They are more of the applied variety in my estimation and practically speaking academic associate's degrees are not always entirely transferable to higher institutions because they are intended to prepare students for careers where a bachelor's degree is not required. You wouldn't want students wasting time on subject matter that would not count toward a Bachelor's degree. If this would be a viable idea, the course material would have to be entirely transferable to any university and the teachers possessed of the necessary credentials. If on the other hand, you limited this program to the more vocational high schools, then there would not be the same issues.

zelmo1234
08-22-2016, 05:21 AM
Community, junior and technical colleges offer two-year undergraduate programs. These might be academic associate's degrees (undergraduate degrees that only take two years) or vocational qualifications. They are more of the applied variety in my estimation and practically speaking academic associate's degrees are not always entirely transferable to higher institutions because they are intended to prepare students for careers where a bachelor's degree is not required. You wouldn't want students wasting time on subject matter that would not count toward a Bachelor's degree. If this would be a viable idea, the course material would have to be entirely transferable to any university and the teachers possessed of the necessary credentials. If on the other hand, you limited this program to the more vocational high schools, then there would not be the same issues.

I think that this is True but I will add in state, I don't give a shit if Harvard does not accept the Transfer. If the Student chooses a School that the credits will not Transfer, that would be on them.

And here is where the program will go wrong and I would oppose it. You can't be everything to every one. So I live in MI and as long as the program covered the MI Public Universities, then the child has a great opportunity. U of M has a Great Medical Program, State Engineering and Sciences. Grand Vally, CMU and Western Law. As well as U of M

So they have all the opportunity they will need. IF the and their families choose to go somewhere else, then they can pay for it.

If they can't afford to pay for it, then they can borrow the money, or the Child can Go into the Military. If they refuse to do either of those things? Well the world needs ditch diggers too

donttread
08-22-2016, 08:23 PM
We are told that everyone now is entitled to Free College Education, even though not everyone is smart enough or even wants it.

But the left is hell bent on destroying more of the economy by doing so, And this means that some one has to be an adult and figure out how to help the people.

So here is the plan and it would provide the basics of the first 2 years of any college education, OR 2 years of vocational training.

First, the Teachers Unions have succeeded in securing above average Yearly wages and benefits for 8 months work.

http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/united-states

$58,700.00 So we need to make these 12 month positions And Children will be going to school year around. This will require very little increase in the cost per student per year.

This provides the Current K-12 education in 10 years. and then with the help of the Community colleges around the country. the Child would spend the last 2 years taking their prerequisites and / or the vocational training of their choice.

We hear from Mrs. Obama, that children regress over the summer if they are not taught at home and this not only corrects that, but also keeps the teachers sharp. We all know that Teaching is a calling and they want what is best for the children, so I don't see why they would object.

And the Community College system would get a huge infusion of cash, as the price we pay the public school systems for educations is 4 to 5 times what a year at a community college would be. This would allow them to work with local employers, and Universities to created the specific programs needed to help children succeed.

And while this does not get everyone free College, it does cut the price in half. Then Repeal the Guaranteed Student loan program and the cost of 4 year education will drop and well as give the students better and cheaper options for loans.

Problem solved.

I like the idea of making teachers work for their money, year round school for kids... not so much. I like apprenticeships after a couple years of college. Some exceptions ( i.e.doctors) but how many people learn more real world skills in college that they do the first few years in their profession

zelmo1234
08-22-2016, 09:16 PM
I like the idea of making teachers work for their money, year round school for kids... not so much. I like apprenticeships after a couple years of college. Some exceptions ( i.e.doctors) but how many people learn more real world skills in college that they do the first few years in their profession

I actually agree with you on the 12 month school

But if the left continue to push for Free College, which of course we can't afford, we need to find a reasonable way to make it happen.

That being Said Mrs. Obama has a national commercial running right now that states that Children loose a lot of the knowledge they learned the previous year. adding another Trimester would solve that as well

Tahuyaman
08-22-2016, 10:24 PM
We don't need to be figuring out easier or cheaper ways to give people more free stuff.

Dr. Who
08-22-2016, 10:36 PM
I think that this is True but I will add in state, I don't give a shit if Harvard does not accept the Transfer. If the Student chooses a School that the credits will not Transfer, that would be on them.

And here is where the program will go wrong and I would oppose it. You can't be everything to every one. So I live in MI and as long as the program covered the MI Public Universities, then the child has a great opportunity. U of M has a Great Medical Program, State Engineering and Sciences. Grand Vally, CMU and Western Law. As well as U of M

So they have all the opportunity they will need. IF the and their families choose to go somewhere else, then they can pay for it.

If they can't afford to pay for it, then they can borrow the money, or the Child can Go into the Military. If they refuse to do either of those things? Well the world needs ditch diggers too
Degrees from Harvard and Yale carry a lot of weight, particularly in certain fields. If your intention is to be a success and know the right people along the way, you attend the Ivy League colleges. Unless you get a scholarship, they are extremely expensive. On the other hand credentials from State universities are not as valued, so many people will try to do their final year at a more recognized university. That's just the way it is.

I'm not sure that throwing the dice and sending your child into the military is the best way to go. Then if they survive and don't end up with lifelong injuries or psychological damage, they get a chance to go to school. That's just dumb. They could work for as many years and stay at home and save to pay tuition at a State University or College and be as far ahead. Plus there are student loans. Better to be in debt than dead or physically and/or mentally destroyed. Education is a terrible reason to go into the military. If you are not in it for the right reasons, you are a liability.

zelmo1234
08-23-2016, 01:35 AM
Degrees from Harvard and Yale carry a lot of weight, particularly in certain fields. If your intention is to be a success and know the right people along the way, you attend the Ivy League colleges. Unless you get a scholarship, they are extremely expensive. On the other hand credentials from State universities are not as valued, so many people will try to do their final year at a more recognized university. That's just the way it is.

I'm not sure that throwing the dice and sending your child into the military is the best way to go. Then if they survive and don't end up with lifelong injuries or psychological damage, they get a chance to go to school. That's just dumb. They could work for as many years and stay at home and save to pay tuition at a State University or College and be as far ahead. Plus there are student loans. Better to be in debt than dead or physically and/or mentally destroyed. Education is a terrible reason to go into the military. If you are not in it for the right reasons, you are a liability.

You just said everything that I believe. Ivy league Schools have a Very large reward, so they can pay back the loan. That is why it does not need to transfer to those schools

Each state can set up a program to transfer into their instate schools, and that will be Good enough, for anyone to make a decent living in the USA. The Government does not have to be all things to all people

As for the military, Many have used it to start a great life. The people that serve are truly Hero's. Most on the left would never consider serving, as they don't understand what it stands for. And that is OK, they can find other ways, as you have pointed out to pay for out of state tuition.

And this conversation with our good Dr. Who is a classic example of what the left does to kill policies that would actually help the poor that they claim so desperately to care about.

As you can see I have found a way to get every child either Vocational Training or their first 2 years of College paid for, with very, very little increase in School Taxation. But this would actually Bring hope to the poor, working poor and those on Social Assistance programs? That is bad for the DNC and Democrats.

So Dr. Who keeps putting more and more and more restriction on it, to make it unaffordable and those it would never become law, and that is what the Democrats want, then they can use it as a political issue.

If we are paying for half of the child's education? Then state college will have to do

Bethere
08-23-2016, 01:48 AM
I actually agree with you on the 12 month school

But if the left continue to push for Free College, which of course we can't afford, we need to find a reasonable way to make it happen.

That being Said Mrs. Obama has a national commercial running right now that states that Children loose a lot of the knowledge they learned the previous year. adding another Trimester would solve that as well

This is true. Especially in math, much of september was about remembering what we did last may.

Dr. Who
08-23-2016, 05:52 PM
You just said everything that I believe. Ivy league Schools have a Very large reward, so they can pay back the loan. That is why it does not need to transfer to those schools

Each state can set up a program to transfer into their instate schools, and that will be Good enough, for anyone to make a decent living in the USA. The Government does not have to be all things to all people

As for the military, Many have used it to start a great life. The people that serve are truly Hero's. Most on the left would never consider serving, as they don't understand what it stands for. And that is OK, they can find other ways, as you have pointed out to pay for out of state tuition.

And this conversation with our good Dr. Who is a classic example of what the left does to kill policies that would actually help the poor that they claim so desperately to care about.

As you can see I have found a way to get every child either Vocational Training or their first 2 years of College paid for, with very, very little increase in School Taxation. But this would actually Bring hope to the poor, working poor and those on Social Assistance programs? That is bad for the DNC and Democrats.

So Dr. Who keeps putting more and more and more restriction on it, to make it unaffordable and those it would never become law, and that is what the Democrats want, then they can use it as a political issue.

If we are paying for half of the child's education? Then state college will have to do
Bringing up what will obviously be raised is not trying to kill your idea. With your restrictions, you can't say that it will provide two free years of education to everyone if those credits are not transferable to the post-secondary institution that will provide the degree of a person's choice. It definitely won't count as the first two years of pre-med, science, or engineering degree.

zelmo1234
08-23-2016, 08:29 PM
Bringing up what will obviously be raised is not trying to kill your idea. With your restrictions, you can't say that it will provide two free years of education to everyone if those credits are not transferable to the post-secondary institution that will provide the degree of a person's choice. It definitely won't count as the first two years of pre-med, science, or engineering degree.

I am not going to provide it to students that don't live long enough to graduate either.

We don't give the GI bill to those that don't serve in the Military? What you have to do is provide a path for them to get a 2 year degree. If they choose not to take that path, that is why we live in a free country, you have choices, but if you choose not to take the path provided, then you Can complain about paying the bill

And it still could save them a lot of money because the student will be able to comp out of some of there classes.

kilgram
08-24-2016, 02:57 AM
The lazy public educators will not like the idea of having to work 11 1/2 months a year instead of only eight

Their attitude is "fuck the children, we gotta get ours"

At the very least they will demand more money

That doesn't mean we have to give it to them

but they won't be happy campers
Yeah, the children fuck them. Children to schools the whole year.

And again proving your ignorance of the teaching system. Do you think teachers don't work during the children's holidays?

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