Nate Silver: Democrats Should Panic...

[FindersKeepers]

...If The Polls Still Look Like This in a Week.


That’s not to imply the events of the weekend were necessarily catastrophic for Clinton: In the grand scheme of things, they might not matter all that much (although polling from YouGov suggests that Clinton’s health is in fact a concern to voters (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-health-poll_us_57db0769e4b04a1497b3439f)). But when you’re only ahead by 3 or 4 points, and when some sequence of events causes you to lose another 1 or 2 points, the Electoral College probabilities can shift pretty rapidly. A lot of light blue states on our map have turned pink, meaning that Trump is now a narrow favorite there instead of Clinton:


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-democrats-should-panic-if-the-polls-still-look-like-this-in-a-week/

It's an interesting read -- there's quite a bit more.

It seems obvious that Clinton's "deplorables" comment really hurt her.

To top if off -- instead of letting it mercifully fade into oblivion, her own supporters are doubling-down, calling various Trump supporters the same name, and, by doing so -- keeping Hillary's faux pas in the spotlight. With friends like that...right?

[Cigar]

I remember Obama panicking .... Twice, Back-2-Back :grin:

[Peter1469]

If Trump was everything the Fans said of him, Hillary should be leading by 20+ points.

But the third party candidates are doing fairly well. And it seems they are leaching much more from Hillary.

[Common Sense]

If Trump was everything the Fans said of him, Hillary should be leading by 20+ points.

But the third party candidates are doing fairly well. And it seems they are leaching much more from Hillary.

That assumption doesn't take into account the idiocy and gullibility of a significant portion of the electorate.

[Bethere]

If Trump was everything the Fans said of him, Hillary should be leading by 20+ points.

But the third party candidates are doing fairly well. And it seems they are leaching much more from Hillary.

Pete the lifelong Republican proves it once agsin.

[MisterVeritis]

That assumption doesn't take into account the idiocy and gullibility of a significant portion of the electorate.
The Deplorables?

[Common Sense]

The Deplorables?

I prefer the term naive.

[Peter1469]

That assumption doesn't take into account the idiocy and gullibility of a significant portion of the electorate.


We have been over that. It didn't work for Brexit.

Hillary's comments along your lines cost her several percentage points. They are going to third parties that are done with you and your ilk's games.

Do keep it up.

[Peter1469]

Pete the lifelong Republican proves it once agsin.

People who post here, I mean the intelligent ones, know that I am not a republican and have not been for over a decade. I am an independent.

Only sheep believe there are only two choices.

[pjohns]

That assumption doesn't take into account the idiocy and gullibility of a significant portion of the electorate.

Those who come off as elitists are not likely to attract many followers...

[Common Sense]

We have been over that. It didn't work for Brexit.

Hillary's comments along your lines cost her several percentage points. They are going to third parties that are done with you and your ilk's games.

Do keep it up.

It did work for Brexit.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/19/getting-scary-appalling-tactics-used-in-brexit-debate.html

Third parties still have no chance. That's what's great about a parliamentary system.

[zelmo1234]

I prefer the term naive.

So What policy that Hilary is promoting do you think will help the working class, and minorities the most?

[zelmo1234]

People who post here, I mean the intelligent ones, know that I am not a republican and have not been for over a decade. I am an independent.

Only sheep believe there are only two choices.

Oh for goodness Sake Peter they are subjects give them a break, they are not even allowed to look the Queen in the eye.

How would you feel???

[Common Sense]

Those who come off as elitists are not likely to attract many followers...

Fair enough...but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade. If people are turned off by educated and informed people espousing facts, then so be it. They aren't going to be won over anyway.

Part of me wants to see a Trump presidency just so people can see what it would be like. Then maybe they'll change their way of thinking and stop listening to reality stars and start listening to the adults.

[Common Sense]

oh for goodness sake peter they are subjects give them a break, they are not even allowed to look the queen in the eye.

How would you feel???


lol...

[zelmo1234]

It is very Sad that we did not have a strong 3rd party candidate.

It would have been a Great year for them to take the WH

If someone like Jim Webb would have Teamed up with Walker. They would be so far ahead it would not be funny

[zelmo1234]

Fair enough...but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade. If people are turned off by educated and informed people espousing facts, then so be it. They aren't going to be won over anyway.

Part of me wants to see a Trump presidency just so people can see what it would be like. Then maybe they'll change their way of thinking and stop listening to reality stars and start listening to the adults.

OK. So you have Educated Hillary? What Facts is she spouting?

And what policies is she promoting that will actually help the poor and middle class in this country

And what Successes can she point to in her past 30 years in government

[Common Sense]

So What policy that Hilary is promoting do you think will help the working class, and minorities the most?

Her education policies, her infrastructure plan, her post secondary education ideas, student loan proposals, her healthcare proposals, her housing and mental health policies.

[zelmo1234]

Her education policies, her infrastructure plan, her post secondary education ideas, student loan proposals, her healthcare proposals, her housing and mental health policies.

Where does the money come from?

[Common Sense]

It is very Sad that we did not have a strong 3rd party candidate.

It would have been a Great year for them to take the WH

If someone like Jim Webb would have Teamed up with Walker. They would be so far ahead it would not be funny

As much as the polarization here and the (what I consider to be) lies and half truths about Clinton, force me to defend the woman, I would much rather see a third party candidate making strides. But I'm a realist. It's not the time to look to a third party candidate. Not with Trump running.

If someone was smart, they would latch on to this frustration and offer a third party candidate that isn't fringe or single issue driven. A fiscal conservative with liberal leaning values that is also a constitutionalist, but is realistic. Someone with charisma and someone who is an outsider, but with experience. That person must exist.

[Common Sense]

Where does the money come from?

The US has the money. It's held in tax havens, loop holes and the uber rich. If you want to see her plan, it's on her website. Warren Buffet tends to agree with her.

[Mac-7]

Only sheep believe there are only two choices.



Baaaa

when the dust settles either hillary clinton or donald trump will take the oath and occupy the oval office as the next president

[MisterVeritis]

I prefer the term naive.
LOL. You are so cute when you are behaving foolishly.

[zelmo1234]

Her education policies, her infrastructure plan, her post secondary education ideas, student loan proposals, her healthcare proposals, her housing and mental health policies.

So lets look at the polices one by one

The Education system has been in the hands of Democrats for Decades. The USA spends more money per student that anywhere in the world and we continue to decline. Common Core is designed by the Democrats to further that decline and they keep fighting school of choice and vouchers that would allow poor and middle kids to get out of failing schools.

The Student loans were not an issue until the government took them over. Privatize them again and you wills see the rates drop. True people will not be able to borrow thousands for that degree in Archeology. But they do need to pay them back.

President Obama spent a trillion dollars on Infrastructure and it did not create jobs, because you can only do so much at a time.

We need to get the government out of Healthcare and let the market drive prices back down. If we could just return to the days before the ACA we could save people about 50%

Her Housing policies are the exact same think that caused the housing bubble and collapse of 07, so I think we can agree that those are a bad thing.

[Common Sense]

Right and that's what's great about a parliamentary system. Or something like that.

Well, the parliamentary system isn't so much of a "winner takes all" system. Third parties are able to win seats and be actively involved in the system and grow their party. It has it's drawbacks as well.

[zelmo1234]

Baaaa

when the dust settles either hillary clinton or donald trump will take the oath and occupy the oval office as the next president

It is True, but only because the other choices are just as bad.

Like I said a Web / Walker or Walker / Webb would be leading by 20 points

[zelmo1234]

Well, the parliamentary system isn't so much of a "winner takes all" system. Third parties are able to win seats and be actively involved in the system and grow their party. It has it's drawbacks as well.

The biggest problem with the third parties here in the USA, is they only think big. They should be starting with School Boards and working there way up the system

[Common Sense]

So lets look at the polices one by one

The Education system has been in the hands of Democrats for Decades. The USA spends more money per student that anywhere in the world and we continue to decline. Common Core is designed by the Democrats to further that decline and they keep fighting school of choice and vouchers that would allow poor and middle kids to get out of failing schools.

The Student loans were not an issue until the government took them over. Privatize them again and you wills see the rates drop. True people will not be able to borrow thousands for that degree in Archeology. But they do need to pay them back.

President Obama spent a trillion dollars on Infrastructure and it did not create jobs, because you can only do so much at a time.

We need to get the government out of Healthcare and let the market drive prices back down. If we could just return to the days before the ACA we could save people about 50%

Her Housing policies are the exact same think that caused the housing bubble and collapse of 07, so I think we can agree that those are a bad thing.

Education has been in the hands of Dems for decades? George Bush isn't a Dem. He had 8 years. But I agree with you on charter schools and vouchers. There is a place. Sio long as it doesn't take away from public education.

Student loans have been an issue for some time. The main culprits are the for profit colleges that give you a worthless education at inflated prices.

Only a small portion of the $800 billion stimulus went to infrastructure.

As to healthcare, Canada delivers exceptional healthcare at a lower cost because there is no profit for the main insurers. There is supplemental insurance. That's a whole other debate though.

Clinton's plan for housing isn't removing regulations that would cause another subprime crisis.

[Common Sense]

The biggest problem with the third parties here in the USA, is they only think big. They should be starting with School Boards and working there way up the system

Agreed. They also tend to either focus on single issues or they are full of nut cases.

[Peter1469]

It did work for Brexit.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/19/getting-scary-appalling-tactics-used-in-brexit-debate.html

Third parties still have no chance. That's what's great about a parliamentary system.

lol

You and the hard left are using the same arguments about Trump that the European elite used against the Brexit vote. Try to focus and not put up strawmen.

[Common Sense]

lol

You and the hard left are using the same arguments about Trump that the European elite used against the Brexit vote. Try to focus and not put up strawmen.

People use the term straw man far too much.

[Peter1469]

Fair enough...but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade. If people are turned off by educated and informed people espousing facts, then so be it. They aren't going to be won over anyway.

Part of me wants to see a Trump presidency just so people can see what it would be like. Then maybe they'll change their way of thinking and stop listening to reality stars and start listening to the adults.

The globalist elites who claim that today's college graduates will live to see a borderless world.... If you disagree with that you are a buffoon. That argument is zero to one. We have a lot of upcoming elections to see if the globalists improve on their losing streak.

[Peter1469]

Baaaa

when the dust settles either hillary clinton or donald trump will take the oath and occupy the oval office as the next president

Many here would agree with you. And they also say "Baaaa"

[Peter1469]

The biggest problem with the third parties here in the USA, is they only think big. They should be starting with School Boards and working there way up the system

The Tea Party(ies) are doing now that they got co-opted at the federal level. It will take decades.

[Common Sense]

The globalist elites who claim that today's college graduates will live to see a borderless world.... If you disagree with that you are a buffoon. That argument is zero to one. We have a lot of upcoming elections to see if the globalists improve on their losing streak.

When I hear globalist and borderless world I cringe. No one is really calling for that. Not everything is globalist vs. nationalist as you're implying. It borders on the conspiracy zone. It's fantasy.

[Peter1469]

People use the term straw man far too much.

Your team does.

[Common Sense]

The Tea Party(ies) are doing now that they got co-opted at the federal level. It will take decades.

Where did the Tea Party go? We haven't a word about them or from them in this election cycle.

[Common Sense]

Your team does.

I don't think so. I don't use it nor do I use the term ad hom.

I equate it to "I'm telling mom!".

[Peter1469]

When I hear globalist and borderless world I cringe. No one is really calling for that. Not everything is globalist vs. nationalist as you're implying. It borders on the conspiracy zone. It's fantasy.

Your are woefully uninformed. John Kerry gave a commencement speech where he made that claim. We have posted several article about the issue this past year.

But, that is why I said it will take several election cycles for some to figure this stuff out.

[Peter1469]

I don't think so. I don't use it nor do I use the term ad hom.

I equate it to "I'm telling mom!".

Calling it "telling mom" is not related to using it. Perhaps that is just deflection from poor behavior.

[Peter1469]

Where did the Tea Party go? We haven't a word about them or from them in this election cycle.


Read the post that you quoted! Amazing.

[Common Sense]

Your are woefully uninformed. John Kerry gave a commencement speech where he made that claim. We have posted several article about the issue this past year.

But, that is why I said it will take several election cycles for some to figure this stuff out.

Kerry wasn't talking about the US without sovereignty, he was referring to our now virtually borderless world with regards to trade, technology and the internet. No one is advocating one world government and doing away with borders. That's a conspiracy theory on par with when people said Obama was going to ban guns and get the UN to patrol American streets.

[Common Sense]

Read the post that you quoted! Amazing.

I read it, but what do you mean they were co-opetd? By the Republicans? They still exist as individual organizations, do they not? Where did they actually go?

[Peter1469]

Kerry wasn't talking about the US without sovereignty, he was referring to our now virtually borderless world with regards to trade, technology and the internet. No one is advocating one world government and doing away with borders. That's a conspiracy theory on par with when people said Obama was going to ban guns and get the UN to patrol American streets.

False. And astoundingly false considering this is the new political battle in the West.

[Peter1469]

I read it, but what do you mean they were co-opetd? By the Republicans? They still exist as individual organizations, do they not? Where did they actually go?

If you read it you didn't comprehend it.

Local

elections

first

In crayon if that helps.

[Common Sense]

Calling it "telling mom" is not related to using it. Perhaps that is just deflection from poor behavior.

Let's be honest, this isn't a formal debate site. To cry points of privilege and to use terms like straw man is sort of silly. It's more effective to illustrate why someone's argument is wrong rather than just calling offside...particularly when there is no actual debate moderation. To me it just comes off as silly. If we called everything that was ad hom here ad hom, it's all we would do.

[Mister D]

False. And astoundingly false considering this is the new political battle in the West.

That can't be true. Common Sense assures me that while on vacation he didn't notice any angst.

[Common Sense]

If you read it you didn't comprehend it.

Local

elections

first

In crayon if that helps.

Ad hom!!!


Sorry, I find this word salad a little vague..."The Tea Party(ies) are doing now that they got co-opted at the federal level. It will take decades."

[Peter1469]

Let's be honest, this isn't a formal debate site. To cry points of privilege and to use terms like straw man is sort of silly. It's more effective to illustrate why someone's argument is wrong rather than just calling offside...particularly when there is no actual debate moderation. To me it just comes off as silly. If we called everything that was ad hom here ad hom, it's all we would do.

We could just say stick to the topic. The only reason I call a straw man a straw man is to let others know about the diversionary tactic and get them to remain focused on the topic.

[Common Sense]

False. And astoundingly false considering this is the new political battle in the West.

It is? The Globalists (who knows who these shadowy individuals are) are trying to do away with borders?

Sorry Peter, this is Infowars territory.

[Common Sense]

That can't be true. Common Sense assures me that while on vacation he didn't notice any angst.

It was a business trip. ;)

[Common Sense]

We could just say stick to the topic. The only reason I call a straw man a straw man is to let others know about the diversionary tactic and get them to remain focused on the topic.

Sure, lets drop it. Maybe another time.

[The Xl]

Regardless of how bad Trump may be, most people accurate recognize him as individual with his own goals, as opposed to some bought corporate proxy like Hillary or Bush, or Obamney. No one is fucking voting for Halliburton or Goldman Sachs, so people are rejecting suits owned by them. Also, when it comes to character issues and failed policy, Clinton has Trump beat their in a landslide, be it from Iraq, to Libya, her aggression towards Russia and Syria, her emails, super predators, dodging sniper fire, standing by a creepy womanizer for future potential political glory, etc. She's possibly in bad health on top of all that.

So yeah, dems should be worried. She's horrendous, and she's the personification of the establishment in the middle of an anti establishment populist sentiment, which has swept constituents on both sides. As bad as Trump may be, she's clearly worse, and people have figured this out. Don't be shocked to see people roll the dice on a wild card over a known horrible entity.

[Mister D]

It is? The Globalists (who knows who these shadowy individuals are) are trying to do away with borders?

Sorry Peter, this is Infowars territory.

No, it's the reality of the E.U. , for example. Are you really this unaware?

[Common Sense]

Regardless of how bad Trump may be, most people accurate recognize him as individual with his own goals, as opposed to some bought corporate proxy like Hillary or Bush, or Obamney. No one is fucking voting for Halliburton or Goldman Sachs, so people are rejecting suits owned by them. Also, when it comes to character issues and failed policy, Clinton has Trump beat their in a landslide, be it from Iraq, to Libya, her aggression towards Russia and Syria, her emails, super predators, dodging sniper fire, standing by a creepy womanizer for future potential political glory, etc. She's possibly in bad health on top of all that.

So yeah, dems should be worried. She's horrendous, and she's the personification of the establishment in the middle of an anti establishment populist sentiment, which has swept constituents on both sides. As bad as Trump may be, she's clearly worse, and people have figured this out. Don't be shocked to see people roll the dice on a wild card over a known horrible entity.

I only wish it was someone far better than Trump.

[Peter1469]

It is? The Globalists (who knows who these shadowy individuals are) are trying to do away with borders?

Sorry Peter, this is Infowars territory.

I wouldn't know.

I have had threads over this issue for over the last year. Real sources. This is what is called a straw man. Or a poisoning of the well- you want people to think that only kooks have these ideas, with the hopes that people will stop paying attention.

Just look at the articles about Brexit and the results in general. It will come to you, eventually.

[Peter1469]

No, it's the reality of the E.U. , for example. Are you really this unaware?

There are only two choices. Unaware or a propagandist.

[Mac-7]

So lets look at the polices one by one

The Education system has been in the hands of Democrats for Decades. The USA spends more money per student that anywhere in the world and we continue to decline. Common Core is designed by the Democrats to further that decline and they keep fighting school of choice and vouchers that would allow poor and middle kids to get out of failing schools.

The Student loans were not an issue until the government took them over. Privatize them again and you wills see the rates drop. True people will not be able to borrow thousands for that degree in Archeology. But they do need to pay them back.

President Obama spent a trillion dollars on Infrastructure and it did not create jobs, because you can only do so much at a time.

We need to get the government out of Healthcare and let the market drive prices back down. If we could just return to the days before the ACA we could save people about 50%

Her Housing policies are the exact same think that caused the housing bubble and collapse of 07, so I think we can agree that those are a bad thing.

Part of the infrastructure money was spent teaching african men how to clean their penis

thanks for nothing obumer.

[Common Sense]

No, it's the reality of the E.U. , for example. Are you really this unaware?

The Uniting of Europe had been called for for decades. Much of it spurred on by the two world wars. It isn't some conspiracy.

Countries applied to join. They weren't forced.

[Mister D]

I wouldn't know.

I have had threads over this issue for over the last year. Real sources. This is what is called a straw man. Or a poisoning of the well- you want people to think that only kooks have these ideas, with the hopes that people will stop paying attention.

Just look at the articles about Brexit and the results in general. It will come to you, eventually.

Sovereignty is such a major global issue that I'm not sure how it could be missed by anyone paying attention. The current global system, if not geared toward the elimination of borders in all but name, has certainly had that effect. People don't like it. Or maybe I'm wrong and Infowars has a much bigger fan base than any of us were aware of.

[Common Sense]

Part of the infrastructure money was spent teaching african men how to clean their penis

thanks for nothing obumer.

That was part of an AIDS study conducted by UCLA. It was $800,000. Not really a lot of money.

[Mister D]

The Uniting of Europe had been called for for decades. Much of it spurred on by the two world wars. It isn't some conspiracy.

Countries applied to join. They weren't forced.

No one is talking about conspiracies. Well, except you. That's called a straw man. :wink:

[Common Sense]

There are only two choices. Unaware or a propagandist.

LOL...which one am I?

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

[Common Sense]

No one is talking about conspiracies. Well, except you. That's called a straw man. :wink:

How is it not a conspiracy? It's something that is conducted in the shadows and not openly discussed. Certainly dissolving US sovereignty secretly would be considered a conspiracy.

[Mister D]

LOL...which one am I?

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."




No one speaks of conspiracies, Common Sense. Well, except you. Get it now?

[Mister D]

How is it not a conspiracy? It's something that is conducted in the shadows and not openly discussed. Certainly dissolving US sovereignty secretly would be considered a conspiracy.

Um...if it is being conducted in the shadows hundreds of millions of people wouldn't be aware of it. The problem is not that it's being discussed in the shadows. The problem is that it's not what people want. But of course they don't know what's good for them! lol Carry on. Too much infowars!

[Mister D]

I'm stunned. One of the most explosive issues in contemporary politics is dismissed as a conspiracy theory. Good night, lemmings.

[Common Sense]

No one speaks of conspiracies, Common Sense. Well, except you. Get it now?

Weird that I haven't seen Clinton's globalist open borders policy on her site.

[pjohns]

Fair enough...but at some point you just have to call a spade a spade. If people are turned off by educated and informed people espousing facts, then so be it. They aren't going to be won over anyway.

Part of me wants to see a Trump presidency just so people can see what it would be like. Then maybe they'll change their way of thinking and stop listening to reality stars and start listening to the adults.

Evidently, you equate being an elitist with merely "calling a spade a spade" and "listening to the adults"...

[Common Sense]

Evidently, you equate being an elitist with merely "calling a spade a spade" and "listening to the adults"...

If you say so.

[pjohns]

The US has the money. It's held in tax havens, loop holes and the uber rich. If you want to see her plan, it's on her website. Warren Buffet tends to agree with her.

This is just about always the refrain of the left: Why, we can easily pay for all sorts of additional government spending, without discomfiting the American middle class at all; it will just come from the "uber rich."

Of course, when it becomes evident that there is not enough money there, it is the middle class that has to bear the onus of higher taxes (or else the budget deficit swells even more)...

[Common Sense]

This is just about always the refrain of the left: Why, we can easily pay for all sorts of additional government spending, without discomfiting the American middle class at all; it will just come from the "uber rich."

Of course, when it becomes evident that there is not enough money there, it is the middle class that has to bear the onus of higher taxes (or else the budget deficit swells even more)...

That's a legitimate concern. History has shown us that most of the tax cuts promoted by Republicans benefit the very wealthy. As I said, the money is there and tax rates for the very rich are historically low.

I'm middle class. I don't mind paying more to get more. If the money is well spent, the effect is a better society, less crime and more opportunity. I do understand that it's one of the main philosophical differences between conservatives and liberals.

[Green Arrow]

...If The Polls Still Look Like This in a Week.


http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-democrats-should-panic-if-the-polls-still-look-like-this-in-a-week/

It's an interesting read -- there's quite a bit more.

It seems obvious that Clinton's "deplorables" comment really hurt her.

To top if off -- instead of letting it mercifully fade into oblivion, her own supporters are doubling-down, calling various Trump supporters the same name, and, by doing so -- keeping Hillary's faux pas in the spotlight. With friends like that...right?

The problem for Hillary is that nobody actually likes her - they have to pretend they like her, so every time she does something awful, they basically over-compensate. So instead of trying to excuse what was said diplomatically by also calling it a mistake, easing the blow so to speak, they double down on what she said/did and turn independents off even more.

[maineman]

Only sheep believe there are only two choices.

only fools believe there are more.

[Green Arrow]

only fools believe there are more.

Actually, only fools believe there aren't. At least three choices are on the ballot in all fifty states.

[maineman]

The problem for Hillary is that nobody actually likes her - they have to pretend they like her, so every time she does something awful, they basically over-compensate. So instead of trying to excuse what was said diplomatically by also calling it a mistake, easing the blow so to speak, they double down on what she said/did and turn independents off even more.

actually, I do like her. I think she has been fighting the good fight for her entire career and she will make a wonderful president.

[Green Arrow]

actually, I do like her. I think she has been fighting the good fight for her entire career and she will make a wonderful president.

That makes one person, I guess.

[Common Sense]

The problem for Hillary is that nobody actually likes her - they have to pretend they like her, so every time she does something awful, they basically over-compensate. So instead of trying to excuse what was said diplomatically by also calling it a mistake, easing the blow so to speak, they double down on what she said/did and turn independents off even more.

There's a lot of truth to that. As much as I don't see Hillary as the ideal candidate (who is), I feel the need to defend her. Mostly because the alternative is a nightmare, but also because so many people have succumbed to the effective propaganda that she's this demon woman. I find myself defending a mediocre candidate due to the fact that it's either her or this orange lunatic.

If that turns off independents, I'm not sure what the alternative is. It's not time for me to criticize Clinton. That will come once she's hopefully elected.

[Newpublius]

The media is vested in a horserace so they'll give us one. I don't take polls but I actually do find it surprising that seemingly a large percentage of the electorate is so fickle. I mean how many people do you know have switched Clinton/Trump because of something recent in the news?

[Common Sense]

The media is vested in a horserace so they'll give us one. I don't take polls but I actually do find it surprising that seemingly a large percentage of the electorate is so fickle. I mean how many people do you know have switched Clinton/Trump because of something recent in the news?

It seems there is this strange group that makes up 5-10% of the electorate that could swing either way. I've never met such a person, but apparently they are out there. I assume it's people who don't take politics as seriously as everyone here or don't really know much about it. I assume they don't read papers, news on the internet or TV.

[zelmo1234]

Where did the Tea Party go? We haven't a word about them or from them in this election cycle.

They don't have a horse in the Race.

All four Candidates are Progressives.

[Common Sense]

They don't have a horse in the Race.

All four Candidates are Progressives.

That's right...I forgot they supported that creepy Ted Cruz guy.

[zelmo1234]

I read it, but what do you mean they were co-opetd? By the Republicans? They still exist as individual organizations, do they not? Where did they actually go?

Actually every chapter of the TEA party was separate. There was not a national head.

Faux Conservative GOP members sucked up to the TEA parties and unfortunately they believed them.

Of course it was a lie, and thus we have Donald Trump. Which I guess is the revenge of the TEA party.

What people do not realize is that if Trump wins, it tears down so many of the things that we hate.

The money in politics. If Trump wins he will spend about a third of what Hillary did. That we scare the hell out of special interests.

if Trump wins he totally and completely destroys the establishment of both parties. Like it or not, Trump is going to the people with his message. And he is not afraid to go places that people really care for his message.

For the past 24 years we have had Presidents that did nothing for the people, but advanced the power structure of DC. Trump moves the power back in the direction of the people.

I guess he sticks it to the man if you will. and for that I support him.

[zelmo1234]

Weird that I haven't seen Clinton's globalist open borders policy on her site.

You did not look very hard. What is her Immigration policy?

What about border control? What does she want to do with those that are here illegally?

[Common Sense]

Actually every chapter of the TEA party was separate. There was not a national head.

Faux Conservative GOP members sucked up to the TEA parties and unfortunately they believed them.

Of course it was a lie, and thus we have Donald Trump. Which I guess is the revenge of the TEA party.

What people do not realize is that if Trump wins, it tears down so many of the things that we hate.

The money in politics. If Trump wins he will spend about a third of what Hillary did. That we scare the hell out of special interests.

if Trump wins he totally and completely destroys the establishment of both parties. Like it or not, Trump is going to the people with his message. And he is not afraid to go places that people really care for his message.

For the past 24 years we have had Presidents that did nothing for the people, but advanced the power structure of DC. Trump moves the power back in the direction of the people.

I guess he sticks it to the man if you will. and for that I support him.

I would love to believe that, but Trump was critical of Citizens United, then he hired its architect.

I honestly doubt Trump will do anything to help people. His campaign is based on huge promises with no specifics. He's a con man. If he wins he'll put on a show, reap the rewards and that's about it.

[zelmo1234]

That's a legitimate concern. History has shown us that most of the tax cuts promoted by Republicans benefit the very wealthy. As I said, the money is there and tax rates for the very rich are historically low.

I'm middle class. I don't mind paying more to get more. If the money is well spent, the effect is a better society, less crime and more opportunity. I do understand that it's one of the main philosophical differences between conservatives and liberals.

Can you show me where these facts are true. Because it was not the case for Kennedy, Reagan, and GWB. Clintons was Capital gains and was primarily for the Rich.

[zelmo1234]

actually, I do like her. I think she has been fighting the good fight for her entire career and she will make a wonderful president.

What do you think her best accomplishment is to date?

[zelmo1234]

That's right...I forgot they supported that creepy Ted Cruz guy.

I actually think that Walker or Perry would have been their first choices. Cruz was the last one standing that they could except

[zelmo1234]

I would love to believe that, but Trump was critical of Citizens United, then he hired its architect.

I honestly doubt Trump will do anything to help people. His campaign is based on huge promises with no specifics. He's a con man. If he wins he'll put on a show, reap the rewards and that's about it.

What Rewards? The arena that the Clintons play in by selling access to the US government is chump change compared to Trump's Business.

What Trump is talking about would help the poor and middle class.

Why do you think that the 1% has done so well under Obama? Do you think it was by accident?

Why do you think Violence is higher in poor minority communities? What about public educations getting worse.

What actions did Obama propose that would actually have helped these people?

[Ethereal]

Her education policies, her infrastructure plan, her post secondary education ideas, student loan proposals, her healthcare proposals, her housing and mental health policies.

In other words, you claim to be one of the "educated adults", yet you support someone who is an incompetent serial liar that has contributed to the destruction of numerous countries.

[Hal Jordan]

Both parties should keep it up. They're only helping the third parties.

[Hal Jordan]

Her education policies, her infrastructure plan, her post secondary education ideas, student loan proposals, her healthcare proposals, her housing and mental health policies.

How do those compare to her actual record?

[Common Sense]

How do those compare to her actual record?

Her record as what? As senator she sponsored several bills that were in the same spirit of what she's proposing now.

Paycheck Fairness Act
Protecting Patients and Health Care Act
A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to allow taxpayers to designate a portion of their income tax payment to provide assistance to homeless veterans, and for other purposes.
Health Professions and Primary Care Reinvestment Act
National Principal Recruitment Act
Elimination of the Single Parent Tax Act of 2008
Supporting Mentors, Supporting Our Youth Act of 2008
Medically Fragile Children's Act of 2008
Lead-Safe Housing for Kids Act of 2008
Healthy Food for Healthy Lives Act of 2008
Children's Environmental Health and Safety Risk Reduction Act

https://www.congress.gov/member/hillary-clinton/C001041?q=%7B%22sponsorship%22%3A%22sponsored%22%7 D

And many others...

[Hal Jordan]

Her record as what? As senator she sponsored several bills that were in the same spirit of what she's proposing now.

Paycheck Fairness Act
Protecting Patients and Health Care Act
A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to allow taxpayers to designate a portion of their income tax payment to provide assistance to homeless veterans, and for other purposes.
Health Professions and Primary Care Reinvestment Act
National Principal Recruitment Act
Elimination of the Single Parent Tax Act of 2008
Supporting Mentors, Supporting Our Youth Act of 2008
Medically Fragile Children's Act of 2008
Lead-Safe Housing for Kids Act of 2008
Healthy Food for Healthy Lives Act of 2008
Children's Environmental Health and Safety Risk Reduction Act

https://www.congress.gov/member/hillary-clinton/C001041?q={"sponsorship"%3A"sponsored"}And many others...

I was referring to her record as a whole, not snippets where she supported bills that might somehow be considered in the same spirit. What is her full record in regards to those policies and proposals. For and against must be equally considered.

[Ethereal]

Don't forget the patriot act, the Iraq war, and the bank bailouts.

[Mac-7]

That was part of an AIDS study conducted by UCLA. It was $800,000. Not really a lot of money.

nonsense

they could do a aids study using homosexuals, prostitues, drug addicts or prison inmates right here in the USA.

This was just make work and salery padding for liberal academics who never want to see federal tax dollars go unspent

[Mac-7]

Both parties should keep it up. They're only helping the third parties.

Helping so much that neither johnson or stein can poll 15% and sneak into the presidential debates

[Hal Jordan]

Helping so much that neither johnson or stein can poll 15% and sneak into the presidential debates

We'll see. If your boy and their girl keep it up, that 15% will be a lock.

[Common Sense]

I was referring to her record as a whole, not snippets where she supported bills that might somehow be considered in the same spirit. What is her full record in regards to those policies and proposals. For and against must be equally considered.

That's a lot of homework. I don't know that I have 6 hours to prepare a presentation. I think her record as senator is in line with what she has proposed to do as president. As have her actions as first lady.

[Hal Jordan]

That's a lot of homework. I don't know that I have 6 hours to prepare a presentation. I think her record as senator is in line with what she has proposed to do as president. As have her actions as first lady.

It is a lot of homework. I disagree, but am willing to leave it at that for now.

[FindersKeepers]

The problem for Hillary is that nobody actually likes her - they have to pretend they like her, so every time she does something awful, they basically over-compensate. So instead of trying to excuse what was said diplomatically by also calling it a mistake, easing the blow so to speak, they double down on what she said/did and turn independents off even more.


That's a good way of defining it. They don't let these things fade away -- they keep breathing life back into them. At the detriment of their candidate.

I also think your comment that they don't actually like her rings true. She's tough to like.

[FindersKeepers]

That assumption doesn't take into account the idiocy and gullibility of a significant portion of the electorate.


That's a cop-out.

It was a cop-out back when they said it about Obama's big pull on the black community, and it's a cop-out now.

[FindersKeepers]

Pete the lifelong Republican proves it once agsin.

Don't troll my thread.

Please.

[FindersKeepers]

The Student loans were not an issue until the government took them over. Privatize them again and you wills see the rates drop. True people will not be able to borrow thousands for that degree in Archeology. But they do need to pay them back.



I wouldn't mind funding part of higher education -- IF -- universities taught ONLY what students needed to advance in their respective careers. But, when that English student is forced to pass Algebra and the Computer Coding student has to pay for a wasted classical literature class, I'm not interested in my tax dollars going for that waste.

Worst of all, they want funding to spread their destructive progressive message.

Um...no.

[FindersKeepers]

The biggest problem with the third parties here in the USA, is they only think big. They should be starting with School Boards and working there way up the system

Exactly.


At present, they're putting the cart before the horse.

[Mac-7]

Exactly.


At present, they're putting the cart before the horse.

I think most third party voters do not want to win

the beauty of a third party candidate for their voters is that they have no chance to win

Meaning the third way libs are never wrong and never have to defend their choice after said stiff/bozo gets into office and does something stupid

which means they can be forever young and say "We told you so" as often as they want.

[Green Arrow]

There's a lot of truth to that. As much as I don't see Hillary as the ideal candidate (who is), I feel the need to defend her. Mostly because the alternative is a nightmare, but also because so many people have succumbed to the effective propaganda that she's this demon woman. I find myself defending a mediocre candidate due to the fact that it's either her or this orange lunatic.

If that turns off independents, I'm not sure what the alternative is. It's not time for me to criticize Clinton. That will come once she's hopefully elected.

You're going to help her get elected and then criticize her?

No offense, but that's not very smart.

[Green Arrow]

They don't have a horse in the Race.

All four Candidates are Progressives.

Hillary, Johnson, and Trump are not progressive. Hillary has no core values, she's just an opportunist. Same with Trump. Johnson is at the opposite end of the spectrum from progressives.

Stein is the only progressive running.

[pjohns]

Not everything is globalist vs. nationalist

If it is true that "[n]ot everything is globalist vs. nationalist," as you claim, then that begs the question: What other alternative exists?

[pjohns]

Let's be honest, this isn't a formal debate site. To cry points of privilege and to use terms like straw man is sort of silly. It's more effective to illustrate why someone's argument is wrong rather than just calling offside...particularly when there is no actual debate moderation. To me it just comes off as silly. If we called everything that was ad hom here ad hom, it's all we would do.

This may, indeed, not be "formal"; but on this (and other political forums that I frequent), I sometimes refer--pejoratively--to the ad hominem arguments made by others.

In fact, I am at the ready to point out any logical fallacy made by my opponents...

[pjohns]

That was part of an AIDS study conducted by UCLA. It was $800,000. Not really a lot of money.

Actually, some of us--in fact, many of us--would consider $800,000 to be, indeed, "a lot of money."

But to a government that doesn't think $19 trillion is a lot of money (that is what the current national debt is), a mere $800,000 may not seem like very much...

[OGIS]

People who post here, I mean the intelligent ones, know that I am not a republican and have not been for over a decade. I am an independent.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you are a paid troll.

[OGIS]

nonsense

they could do a aids study using homosexuals, prostitues, drug addicts or prison inmates right here in the USA.

This was just make work and salery padding for liberal academics who never want to see federal tax dollars go unspent

Tsk tsk tsk, all that lovely money that just DISAPPEARED into the BLACK HOLE of the gubmint, never to be seen again. It's like a magician waved his hand and made it go away.

[pjohns]

Weird that I haven't seen Clinton's globalist open borders policy on her site.

Hillary Clinton--like her husband, Bill--is the very apotheosis of a member of The Political Class.

And, certainly, her advertising her globalist ambitions would not be a good way to get elected. (And climbing the political ladder--all the way to the presidency--is what the Clintons are all about.)

[pjohns]

If you say so.

Actually, no.

You said so.

In post #14 in this thread (which I quoted).

[MisterVeritis]

I wouldn't mind funding part of higher education -- IF -- universities taught ONLY what students needed to advance in their respective careers. But, when that English student is forced to pass Algebra and the Computer Coding student has to pay for a wasted classical literature class, I'm not interested in my tax dollars going for that waste.

Worst of all, they want funding to spread their destructive progressive message.

Um...no.
Universities are not needed. You described a trade school. Why should you pay for any of it?

[Peter1469]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you are a paid troll.

No you aren't. That wins the ridiculous claim of the year. Congratulations.

[Hal Jordan]

No you aren't. That wins the ridiculous claim of the year. Congratulations.

I don't know. This is an election year. There are some mighty insane claims out there.

[pjohns]

That's a legitimate concern. History has shown us that most of the tax cuts promoted by Republicans benefit the very wealthy. As I said, the money is there and tax rates for the very rich are historically low.

It is not just "Republicans" who have claimed that they can cut taxes, while leaving the middle class alone. Democrats are frequently the deceivers here.


I'm middle class. I don't mind paying more to get more.

Well, I do.

Even if the money were spent quite wisely (as I see it), I would far prefer low tax rates, coupled with a small federal government, rather than higher tax rates, coupled with a larger, beneficent federal government.


I do understand that it's one of the main philosophical differences between conservatives and liberals.

It is, indeed.

[pjohns]

It's not time for me to criticize [Hillary] Clinton. That will come once she's hopefully elected.

Since you are a Canadian--not an American--you really don't have a dog in this fight, as the old saying goes...

[Green Arrow]

Since you are a Canadian--not an American--you really don't have a dog in this fight, as the old saying goes...

That's never stopped we Americans from weighing in on foreign elections.

[Bethere]

No you aren't. That wins the ridiculous claim of the year. Congratulations.


Lots of us agree with ogis.

Congratulations, Republican.

[Peter1469]

Lots of us agree with ogis.

Congratulations.

Oh.

[Green Arrow]

Lots of us agree with ogis.

Congratulations, Republican.

Lots of people agreed with Jim Jones, too.

They were still crackpots.

[Hal Jordan]

Since you are a Canadian--not an American--you really don't have a dog in this fight, as the old saying goes...

The whole world has a dog in this fight. Canada is affected by America.

[Subdermal]

I only wish it was someone far better than Trump.

If you were consistently honest, you'd admit that such a person can never be on the Right. Anyone who would have been nominated by the GOP would have been described by you exactly the same way.

[Subdermal]

Weird that I haven't seen Clinton's globalist open borders policy on her site.

:facepalm:

[Subdermal]

The media is vested in a horserace so they'll give us one. I don't take polls but I actually do find it surprising that seemingly a large percentage of the electorate is so fickle. I mean how many people do you know have switched Clinton/Trump because of something recent in the news?

I think the cultural pressure being applied by the MSM has a measurable effect on polls, and polling. I think there is a sizable percentage of those being polled who are going to vote for Trump, but do not want the stigmatic response from the person asking the question - so they do not admit it.

That sentiment is affected severely by Trump's weekly antics. If Trump looks Presidential in one week (witness his visit to Mexico, and his skilled manipulation of their politicians), these people lose their embarrassment, and declare Trump their candidate. If he does something that the MSM lampoons, they're not changing their vote - most people consider antics petty, and not a substantive impact on their voting decision - but they're changing how they answer a poll.

That's part of why I think the pollsters are getting it wrong a whole lot this cycle. It's exactly why so many leftists (and many moderates on the right, like Tahuyaman) are getting it wrong this cycle: they actually think that Trump has little chance, because the MSM is repeatedly clowning fake numbers.

They're fake in part because of what I explained. They're additionally fake because there are record GOP voting applicants this cycle.

Trump is going to to win, and the numbers are going to shock those who to this point haven't demonstrated the ability to see it coming.

[Subdermal]

There's a lot of truth to that. As much as I don't see Hillary as the ideal candidate (who is), I feel the need to defend her. Mostly because the alternative is a nightmare, but also because so many people have succumbed to the effective propaganda that she's this demon woman. I find myself defending a mediocre candidate due to the fact that it's either her or this orange lunatic.

If that turns off independents, I'm not sure what the alternative is. It's not time for me to criticize Clinton. That will come once she's hopefully elected.

That is the very essence of Party before Country.

Congrats.

:rolleyes:

[Subdermal]

Lots of us agree with ogis.

Congratulations, Republican.

Bethere speaks for his 4 alternative personalities on this forum. Congratulations, sock.

[Common Sense]

That is the very essence of Party before Country.

Congrats.

:rolleyes:


It's actually not. But I don't expect you to understand.

[OGIS]

That's never stopped we Americans from weighing in on foreign elections.

Bu..bu..but we're special snowflakes!

[OGIS]

I've maintained all along that Trump will either be an unmitigated disaster for the country, or one of our greatest Presidents. And I am also pretty sure that he will end up surprising a lot of people on his policies.

[pjohns]

That's never stopped we Americans from weighing in on foreign elections.

Although I cannot comment upon "we Americans" (in the broad, generalized sense that you have used the term), I can say that I really do not especially care who other countries elect as their respective leaders...

[pjohns]

Lots of us agree with ogis.

Congratulations, Republican.

I am guessing that Peter knows better than anyone else--including (obvious) left-wingers--whether or not he is "a paid troll."

But some people "agree" with anyone who would slime others of a different viewpoint...

[pjohns]

The whole world has a dog in this fight. Canada is affected by America.

Whereas I do not much like either (1) a bully, a blowhard, and a bigot; or (2) a liar, a crook, and a possible felon; I cannot see how it is, specifically, that Canada might be directly "affected" by the selection of either of these...

[pjohns]

Bu..bu..but we're special snowflakes!

Well, I certainly believe in the doctrine of American Exceptionalism; and I do not care for any politician who appears not to, in his or her words and/or deeds.

If that is the same as what you describe as "special snowflakes" (emphasis in original), then so be it...

[Subdermal]

It's actually not. But I don't expect you to understand.

Actually it is. And I don't expect you to provide a substantive counter.

[Hal Jordan]

Whereas I do not much like either (1) a bully, a blowhard, and a bigot; or (2) a liar, a crook, and a possible felon; I cannot see how it is, specifically, that Canada might be directly "affected" by the selection of either of these...
Canada is tied more closely to America than most countries. Decisions made in America do have an effect on Canada. Here's a more specific example, if America were to start a war, which there are scenarios for both candidates where that is likely, Canada would be affected by that quite a bit. Especially if it were with a country that could strike back.

[Hal Jordan]

I've maintained all along that Trump will either be an unmitigated disaster for the country, or one of our greatest Presidents. And I am also pretty sure that he will end up surprising a lot of people on his policies.

If he is elected, and he very well might be, I guarantee that many will be surprised by his actual policies. There is zero doubt there. He's been saying what many (maybe enough to get elected, maybe not, impossible to say for certain at this point) people want to hear, rather than what he will actually do.

[Hal Jordan]

I think the cultural pressure being applied by the MSM has a measurable effect on polls, and polling. I think there is a sizable percentage of those being polled who are going to vote for Trump, but do not want the stigmatic response from the person asking the question - so they do not admit it.

That sentiment is affected severely by Trump's weekly antics. If Trump looks Presidential in one week (witness his visit to Mexico, and his skilled manipulation of their politicians), these people lose their embarrassment, and declare Trump their candidate. If he does something that the MSM lampoons, they're not changing their vote - most people consider antics petty, and not a substantive impact on their voting decision - but they're changing how they answer a poll.

That's part of why I think the pollsters are getting it wrong a whole lot this cycle. It's exactly why so many leftists (and many moderates on the right, like @Tahuyaman (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1365)) are getting it wrong this cycle: they actually think that Trump has little chance, because the MSM is repeatedly clowning fake numbers.

They're fake in part because of what I explained. They're additionally fake because there are record GOP voting applicants this cycle.

Trump is going to to win, and the numbers are going to shock those who to this point haven't demonstrated the ability to see it coming.

I do have to agree that the stigma does skew polling, which makes the polls even more useless in this election cycle than they normally are. Whether he is going to win or not remains to be seen. I don't think it's possible to predict at this point.

[zelmo1234]

I've maintained all along that Trump will either be an unmitigated disaster for the country, or one of our greatest Presidents. And I am also pretty sure that he will end up surprising a lot of people on his policies.

I actually think that you are correct there will be now middle ground with Trump. He is not going to do business as usual. He will be Great or the Worst. But it will be different.

[pjohns]

Canada is tied more closely to America than most countries. Decisions made in America do have an effect on Canada. Here's a more specific example, if America were to start a war, which there are scenarios for both candidates where that is likely, Canada would be affected by that quite a bit. Especially if it were with a country that could strike back.

I am not aware of America having ever "start[ed] a war," in all of its 200-plus years history...

[Green Arrow]

I am not aware of America having ever "start[ed] a war," in all of its 200-plus years history...

Iraq (three times), Vietnam, Korea, Revolutionary War, War of 1812, the list is pretty extensive.

[pjohns]

Iraq (three times), Vietnam, Korea, Revolutionary War, War of 1812, the list is pretty extensive.

The Revolutionary War (or "War of Independence," as the Brits term it) (1) was before this was even a nation; and (2) was essential to our establishing our independence.

As for the others, well, you have a much different understanding of history than I do...

[exploited]

The Revolutionary War (or "War of Independence," as the Brits term it) (1) was before this was even a nation; and (2) was essential to our establishing our independence.

As for the others, well, you have a much different understanding of history than I do...

An accurate one?

[pjohns]

An accurate one?

More like an "understanding" that has been heavily influenced by postmodern teachers.

But I suppose you would consider that to be "accurate"...

[exploited]

More like an "understanding" that has been heavily influenced by postmodern teachers.

But I suppose you would consider that to be "accurate"...

Nah. I get the Cold War, and the logic that drove it. I'm just not a victim of propaganda, like you are. They teach media literacy now.

[pjohns]

Nah. I get the Cold War, and the logic that drove it. I'm just not a victim of propaganda, like you are. They teach media literacy now.

Evidently, you equate the doctrine of American Exceptionalism with "propaganda" and "[il]literacy"...

[exploited]

Evidently, you equate the doctrine of American Exceptionalism with "propaganda" and "[il]literacy"...

Yes, without a doubt. America is not exceptional in any way.

[zelmo1234]

The Revolutionary War (or "War of Independence," as the Brits term it) (1) was before this was even a nation; and (2) was essential to our establishing our independence.

As for the others, well, you have a much different understanding of history than I do...

It depends on what your definition of Start is? If your idea of standing up for your rights is bowing down before the British Troops that were committing atrocities against the Colonists? Well I guess we started that war

[Hal Jordan]

It depends on what your definition of Start is? If your idea of standing up for your rights is bowing down before the British Troops that were committing atrocities against the Colonists? Well I guess we started that war

No, that's not what his view of standing up for your rights is. The thing is, in standing up for our rights we did start the war. No war happens in a vacuum, so there will always be events that lead to the starting of the war.

[Green Arrow]

More like an "understanding" that has been heavily influenced by postmodern teachers.

But I suppose you would consider that to be "accurate"...

Seriously? I'm being respectful to you and you decide to take petty potshots at my intelligence instead of offering a serious counter argument?

[Ethereal]

Seriously? I'm being respectful to you and you decide to take petty potshots at my intelligence instead of offering a serious counter argument?

Well, duh.

This is tPF, after all.

[pjohns]

It depends on what your definition of Start is? If your idea of standing up for your rights is bowing down before the British Troops that were committing atrocities against the Colonists? Well I guess we started that war

To reiterate: This was even before we were a nation.

In any case, to refuse to continue "bowing down" to those who were "committing atrocities" is hardly my idea of starting anything...

[pjohns]

Seriously? I'm being respectful to you and you decide to take petty potshots at my intelligence instead of offering a serious counter argument?

Are you serious?

I did not "take petty potshots at [your] intelligence."

Rather, I noted that your understanding of America's history may have been "heavily influenced by postmodern teachers."

That is certainly not an indictment of your core intelligence...

[pjohns]

Yes, without a doubt. America is not exceptional in any way.

Well, then I suppose you may consider me to be a victim of "propaganda"--and, even more to the point, "[il]literate"...

[nic34]

Hillary, Johnson, and Trump are not progressive. Hillary has no core values, she's just an opportunist. Same with Trump. Johnson is at the opposite end of the spectrum from progressives.

Stein is the only progressive running.

That's tortured logic at best, but basically right....

[nic34]

See what you started Common Sense

[Mac-7]

Yes, without a doubt. America is not exceptional in any way.

Liberal-progressives are trying hard to make America less exceptional with each generation and with each new step toward globalism.

but they have not entirely succeeded yet

[Truth Detector]

I remember Obama panicking .... Twice, Back-2-Back :grin:

Was that before or after he lost the House and then the Senate? :grin: