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Axiomatic
10-29-2016, 06:21 PM
"If there is a bill by which 100 people stand to gain $100million by depriving 100million people of $1 each, that bill has a 100% chance of becoming law."

I forgot where I heard that, but it shows a truth because each of the 100million people have only $1 worth of incentive to work or spend money to oppose it, while the 100 people each have up to $1,000,000 worth of incentive to work and spend to get it passed.

I'll post a good chunk of the article (https://bretigne.liberty.me/why-i-wont-be-voting-the-real-reason-libertarians-dont-matter/) because people don't read linked articles and this one is worth reading.

"
Yes, politicians running for office care about votes. But just as much as votes – indeed, as a critical means of securing votes – they care about money.
[...]
Here’s the thing to understand: The things libertarians want – freedom, less govt. interference in markets & in personal choices, non-interventionist foreign policy… there is no money in these things for politicians. [...]

In fact, it is just the opposite: Corporations have long been in the business of paying politicians to intervene in markets on their behalf, to erect barriers to competition and in some cases to squash a particular competitor. Competition is wonderful for society as a whole. But it’s not so great if you’re one of the ones doing the competing. It’s hard, and sometimes you lose. Sometimes, if you’re big enough, it’s just easier to send some money in the direction of the people who can discover antitrust violations in your competitor’s business practices.


Understand that behind the empty campaign promises, politicians have essentially two things to offer to the people who support them: 1. Power, in the form of regulatory and other control, over competitors and others who may get in the way of a particular entity remaining comfortably profitable; 2. Money. Not their own money of course – your money, and my money. Taken from us in taxes, and in the continual devaluation of the government-issued money we all use. Politicians can give money to their supporters in the form of contracts for things like military equipment and public works projects, or in less direct ways, like mandating that government schools all stock epinephrine injectors that meet the same very specific product requirements that your device happens to meet.

And the list goes on. What is not on this list is liberty. Why? Because nowhere in this game is there an advantage to selling liberty. This point was driven home to me a few years ago when I asked a California senator’s policy consultant if his boss would consider relaxing business restrictions as a way to help parents of children with special needs create the services they need. He practically laughed at me (https://bretigne.liberty.me/dog-eat-dog-statism-for-special-needs-families-youre-either-at-the-table-or-youre-on-the-menu/). There was nothing in it for his boss or his boss’ supporters in reducing the very control that he uses to buy support.


In theory, politicians could offer liberty to their supporters. They could offer to cut back regulations, to end military aggression. But who is going to pay them for that? Again these are things that would benefit everyone, all of society. But the game of politics is not about benefitting all of society. And the widely accepted belief that it is is perhaps the most dangerous lie ever crafted.

In order for a seeker of liberty to win at this game, that person would have to compete with the campaign donations and other inducements made by military contractors, major pharmaceutical companies, oil companies – but these are all entities that have been made rich by virtue of government interventions and direct largesse. How can a liberty seeker hope to offer the same level of financial inducements to politicians as these people, when they are not also on the receiving end of the government slush?


This is the real reason that libertarians “don’t matter” in the political sphere. It’s not because they don’t vote.It’s because they don’t participate in the real game of politics – the interest-driven game that can never reward a player who wishes to dismantle the very engine of that game. People win at the game of politics by buying and selling political power over other people’s lives and resources. A player who wants to reduce that power will not find themselves rewarded within that game – they will find themselves spat out of it.


That’s why the political beasts are laughing at us. It’s not because we don’t vote – it’s because we don’t steal. And for these people – for people who never even question the morality of using state violence to get what they want – that is the biggest joke in the world.


This is why I don’t believe that it makes sense for a libertarian to vote. Voting is simply not a realm in which liberty wins.

[...] I am not going to help to prop up the charade that “we” control our government, or that it represents “the people.” (What does that even mean? Which people? The ones who all disagree with each other?) Our government is owned by military contractors, pharmaceutical companies, and a host of other concerns that are all feeding from that government’s trough in one way or another.
[...]

"

Safety
10-29-2016, 07:21 PM
Oh, this is going to ruffle some feathers...

Scrounger
10-29-2016, 07:52 PM
Oh, this is going to ruffle some feathers...

On the contrary. I've been trying to promote Liberty for years. Nobody gives a rat's rear. If they lose their Rights, it's due to the immediate political agenda at that moment and never about the big picture of Liberty.

Nobody understands the subject and you can't sell it for ten cents - even if you put a quarter on the top of it.

MRogersNhood
10-29-2016, 07:53 PM
Y u wanna make Libertarians mad?
I think they have the right to think what they think.
Furthermore I would never categorize all of them into one big groupthink.Unlike another political party as of late.
(there's only one I refer to that does that)
Human beings are not The Borg,baby.

Chris
10-29-2016, 07:57 PM
Don't have time for a thorough reading but will say the OP is correct only insofar as that statist model of government is sustainable. Fortunately it's not.

MRogersNhood
10-29-2016, 09:04 PM
Don't have time for a thorough reading but will say the OP is correct only insofar as that statist model of government is sustainable. Fortunately it's not.

Thank goodness for that.I was getting worried.

donttread
10-30-2016, 07:59 AM
"If there is a bill by which 100 people stand to gain $100million by depriving 100million people of $1 each, that bill has a 100% chance of becoming law."

I forgot where I heard that, but it shows a truth because each of the 100million people have only $1 worth of incentive to work or spend money to oppose it, while the 100 people each have up to $1,000,000 worth of incentive to work and spend to get it passed.

I'll post a good chunk of the article (https://bretigne.liberty.me/why-i-wont-be-voting-the-real-reason-libertarians-dont-matter/) because people don't read linked articles and this one is worth reading.

"
Yes, politicians running for office care about votes. But just as much as votes – indeed, as a critical means of securing votes – they care about money.
[...]
Here’s the thing to understand: The things libertarians want – freedom, less govt. interference in markets & in personal choices, non-interventionist foreign policy… there is no money in these things for politicians. [...]

In fact, it is just the opposite: Corporations have long been in the business of paying politicians to intervene in markets on their behalf, to erect barriers to competition and in some cases to squash a particular competitor. Competition is wonderful for society as a whole. But it’s not so great if you’re one of the ones doing the competing. It’s hard, and sometimes you lose. Sometimes, if you’re big enough, it’s just easier to send some money in the direction of the people who can discover antitrust violations in your competitor’s business practices.


Understand that behind the empty campaign promises, politicians have essentially two things to offer to the people who support them: 1. Power, in the form of regulatory and other control, over competitors and others who may get in the way of a particular entity remaining comfortably profitable; 2. Money. Not their own money of course – your money, and my money. Taken from us in taxes, and in the continual devaluation of the government-issued money we all use. Politicians can give money to their supporters in the form of contracts for things like military equipment and public works projects, or in less direct ways, like mandating that government schools all stock epinephrine injectors that meet the same very specific product requirements that your device happens to meet.

And the list goes on. What is not on this list is liberty. Why? Because nowhere in this game is there an advantage to selling liberty. This point was driven home to me a few years ago when I asked a California senator’s policy consultant if his boss would consider relaxing business restrictions as a way to help parents of children with special needs create the services they need. He practically laughed at me (https://bretigne.liberty.me/dog-eat-dog-statism-for-special-needs-families-youre-either-at-the-table-or-youre-on-the-menu/). There was nothing in it for his boss or his boss’ supporters in reducing the very control that he uses to buy support.


In theory, politicians could offer liberty to their supporters. They could offer to cut back regulations, to end military aggression. But who is going to pay them for that? Again these are things that would benefit everyone, all of society. But the game of politics is not about benefitting all of society. And the widely accepted belief that it is is perhaps the most dangerous lie ever crafted.

In order for a seeker of liberty to win at this game, that person would have to compete with the campaign donations and other inducements made by military contractors, major pharmaceutical companies, oil companies – but these are all entities that have been made rich by virtue of government interventions and direct largesse. How can a liberty seeker hope to offer the same level of financial inducements to politicians as these people, when they are not also on the receiving end of the government slush?


This is the real reason that libertarians “don’t matter” in the political sphere. It’s not because they don’t vote.It’s because they don’t participate in the real game of politics – the interest-driven game that can never reward a player who wishes to dismantle the very engine of that game. People win at the game of politics by buying and selling political power over other people’s lives and resources. A player who wants to reduce that power will not find themselves rewarded within that game – they will find themselves spat out of it.


That’s why the political beasts are laughing at us. It’s not because we don’t vote – it’s because we don’t steal. And for these people – for people who never even question the morality of using state violence to get what they want – that is the biggest joke in the world.


This is why I don’t believe that it makes sense for a libertarian to vote. Voting is simply not a realm in which liberty wins.

[...] I am not going to help to prop up the charade that “we” control our government, or that it represents “the people.” (What does that even mean? Which people? The ones who all disagree with each other?) Our government is owned by military contractors, pharmaceutical companies, and a host of other concerns that are all feeding from that government’s trough in one way or another.
[...]

"

The politican can have neither the vote nor the money if we start doing our job and vote out the crooks.We can make a difference if we choose to. Your plan is either a complete surrender to corruption or a clever way to be a donkephant minion effectively saying"if you're not with us your vote doesn't matter."

Axiomatic
10-30-2016, 09:45 AM
I really like optimism, but I don't see anything productive or wise about clinging to a belief in the teeth of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


The politican can have neither the vote nor the money if we start doing our job and vote out the crooks.

Really? Even if every single libertarian voted, do you really believe that would stop banks, pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, all other special interests, from doing everything in their power, with the MSM on their side, to continue to get what they want as they always have?

Again, who is going to pay libertarian politicians to legislate on their behalf? Real libertarians don't want to legislate on behalf of anyone, we want to undo everything these powerful special interests have always been using government for. We want to dismantle the machine itself so the most powerful players won't be able to use government guns to do their bidding. Where is the money in that? Do you forget, from one second to the next, that money is absolutely indispensable to the game of politics?

Even if all the crooks were, by some miracle, to be voted out, do you really believe that the crook-magnet which is government would not immediately attract new ones to take their place?

Chris
10-30-2016, 10:16 AM
Indeed, the bigger the government the bigger the target for rent seeking corruption.

Axiomatic
10-30-2016, 11:02 AM
Indeed, the bigger the government the bigger the target for rent seeking corruption.

Right, which is why I think ideas like the Free State Project do make sense, while something like the most powerful government on Earth is the biggest waste of time for libertarians who want to make a difference.

donttread
10-30-2016, 02:08 PM
I really like optimism, but I don't see anything productive or wise about clinging to a belief in the teeth of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.




Really? Even if every single libertarian voted, do you really believe that would stop banks, pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, all other special interests, from doing everything in their power, with the MSM on their side, to continue to get what they want as they always have?

Again, who is going to pay libertarian politicians to legislate on their behalf? Real libertarians don't want to legislate on behalf of anyone, we want to undo everything these powerful special interests have always been using government for. We want to dismantle the machine itself so the most powerful players won't be able to use government guns to do their bidding. Where is the money in that? Do you forget, from one second to the next, that money is absolutely indispensable to the game of politics?

Even if all the crooks were, by some miracle, to be voted out, do you really believe that the crook-magnet which is government would not immediately attract new ones to take their place?

I'm not just talking about Libertarians , all voters need to do a better job

exploited
10-30-2016, 02:51 PM
Libertarians don't matter because the vast bulk of them are delusional. There really isn't much more to be said.

TrueBlue
10-30-2016, 03:01 PM
Libertarians don't matter because the vast bulk of them are delusional. There really isn't much more to be said.
I think you're right! Just watch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NXhR41lsEJY

Scrounger
10-30-2016, 04:56 PM
I think you're right! Just watch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NXhR41lsEJY

So, a good numbe of them are two french fries short of a Happy Meal. What about Trump, Christie, Obama and Clinton?

We need something besides the status quo.