What Conservatives Get Right About Guns

[Chris]

A look at some data.

What Conservatives Get Right About Guns (http://www.gq.com/story/what-conservatives-get-right-about-guns?mbid=synd_digg)


When I actually dug into the data, I was shocked by how little evidence there was behind some of the most prominent gun control policies. Here are some basic facts that gun rights advocates already know—and that liberals who want to reduce gun violence need to understand.

1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing

...Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data....

2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme

Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each....

3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes

...Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year....

4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms

...gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.

This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.

[Common]

You hear liberals bemoan that people go from chicago to states that sell guns legally and buy them and bring them back to Chicago. They blame the states that sell guns legally and blame the guns.

Whoever buys a gun in fla and brings it to chicago COMMITTED A FELONY. Its a crime to do that.

Just like If a Chicagoan goes to Colorado buys legal weed and brings it to chicago. ITS A FELONY.

[midcan5]

"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." Mark Twain


"Eric manufactured three more pipe bombs: the Charlie batch. Then he halted production until December. What he needed was guns. And that was becoming a problem.

Eric had been looking into the Brady Bill. Congress had passed the law restricting the purchase of most popular semiautomatic machine guns in 1993. A federal system of instant background checks would soon go into effect. Eric was going to have a hard time getting around that.

"Fuck you Brady!" Eric wrote in his journal. All he wanted was a couple of guns - "and thanks to your fucking bill I will probably not get any!" He wanted them only for personal protection, he joked: "Its not like I'm some psycho who would go on a shooting spree. fuckers."

Eric frequently made his research do double duty for both schoolwork and his master plan. He wrote up a short research assignment on the Brady Bill that week. It was a good idea in theory, he said, aside from the loopholes. The biggest problem was that checks applied only to licensed dealers, not private dealers. So two-thirds of the licensed dealers had just gone private. "The FBI just shot themselves in the foot," he concluded."

Eric was rational about his firepower. "As of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people," he wrote. With axes, bayonets, and assorted blades, he could maybe take out ten more. That was as far as hand to-hand combat would get him. A hundred and ten people. "that just isn't enough!"

"Guns!" the entry concluded. "I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms! " p.280 'Columbine' by Dave Cullen [bold added]


"The shooter is almost always male. Of the past 129 mass shootings in the United States, all but three have been men. The shooter is socially alienated, and he can’t get laid. Every time you scratch the surface of the latest mass killing, in a movie theatre, a school, the streets of Paris or an abortion clinic, you find the weaponised loser. From Jihadi John of ISIS to Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris at Columbine, these men are invariably stuck in the emotional life of an adolescent. They always struggle with self-esteem – especially regarding women – and sometimes they give up entirely on the possibility of amorous fulfilment. There are different levels of tactical coordination, different ostensible grievances and different access to firearms, but the psyche beneath is invariably the same."

https://aeon.co/essays/humiliation-and-rage-how-toxic-masculinity-fuels-mass-shootings

[Chris]

"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." Mark Twain


"Eric manufactured three more pipe bombs: the Charlie batch. Then he halted production until December. What he needed was guns. And that was becoming a problem.

Eric had been looking into the Brady Bill. Congress had passed the law restricting the purchase of most popular semiautomatic machine guns in 1993. A federal system of instant background checks would soon go into effect. Eric was going to have a hard time getting around that.

"Fuck you Brady!" Eric wrote in his journal. All he wanted was a couple of guns - "and thanks to your fucking bill I will probably not get any!" He wanted them only for personal protection, he joked: "Its not like I'm some psycho who would go on a shooting spree. fuckers."

Eric frequently made his research do double duty for both schoolwork and his master plan. He wrote up a short research assignment on the Brady Bill that week. It was a good idea in theory, he said, aside from the loopholes. The biggest problem was that checks applied only to licensed dealers, not private dealers. So two-thirds of the licensed dealers had just gone private. "The FBI just shot themselves in the foot," he concluded."

Eric was rational about his firepower. "As of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people," he wrote. With axes, bayonets, and assorted blades, he could maybe take out ten more. That was as far as hand to-hand combat would get him. A hundred and ten people. "that just isn't enough!"

"Guns!" the entry concluded. "I need guns! Give me some fucking firearms! " p.280 'Columbine' by Dave Cullen [bold added]


"The shooter is almost always male. Of the past 129 mass shootings in the United States, all but three have been men. The shooter is socially alienated, and he can’t get laid. Every time you scratch the surface of the latest mass killing, in a movie theatre, a school, the streets of Paris or an abortion clinic, you find the weaponised loser. From Jihadi John of ISIS to Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris at Columbine, these men are invariably stuck in the emotional life of an adolescent. They always struggle with self-esteem – especially regarding women – and sometimes they give up entirely on the possibility of amorous fulfilment. There are different levels of tactical coordination, different ostensible grievances and different access to firearms, but the psyche beneath is invariably the same."

https://aeon.co/essays/humiliation-and-rage-how-toxic-masculinity-fuels-mass-shootings



"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." Mark Twain

[MRogersNhood]

"Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable." Mark Twain


"Eric manufactured three more pipe bombs: the Charlie batch. Then he halted production until December. What he needed was guns. And that was becoming a problem.

Eric had been looking into the Brady Bill. Congress had passed the law restricting the purchase of most popular semiautomatic machine guns in 1993. A federal system of instant background checks would soon go into effect. Eric was going to have a hard time getting around that.

"$#@! you Brady!" Eric wrote in his journal. All he wanted was a couple of guns - "and thanks to your $#@!ing bill I will probably not get any!" He wanted them only for personal protection, he joked: "Its not like I'm some psycho who would go on a shooting spree. $#@!ers."

Eric frequently made his research do double duty for both schoolwork and his master plan. He wrote up a short research assignment on the Brady Bill that week. It was a good idea in theory, he said, aside from the loopholes. The biggest problem was that checks applied only to licensed dealers, not private dealers. So two-thirds of the licensed dealers had just gone private. "The FBI just shot themselves in the foot," he concluded."

Eric was rational about his firepower. "As of this date I have enough explosives to kill about 100 people," he wrote. With axes, bayonets, and assorted blades, he could maybe take out ten more. That was as far as hand to-hand combat would get him. A hundred and ten people. "that just isn't enough!"

"Guns!" the entry concluded. "I need guns! Give me some $#@!ing firearms! " p.280 'Columbine' by Dave Cullen [bold added]


"The shooter is almost always male. Of the past 129 mass shootings in the United States, all but three have been men. The shooter is socially alienated, and he can’t get laid. Every time you scratch the surface of the latest mass killing, in a movie theatre, a school, the streets of Paris or an abortion clinic, you find the weaponised loser. From Jihadi John of ISIS to Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris at Columbine, these men are invariably stuck in the emotional life of an adolescent. They always struggle with self-esteem – especially regarding women – and sometimes they give up entirely on the possibility of amorous fulfilment. There are different levels of tactical coordination, different ostensible grievances and different access to firearms, but the psyche beneath is invariably the same."

https://aeon.co/essays/humiliation-and-rage-how-toxic-masculinity-fuels-mass-shootings

I'm sure Harris and Klebold obtained their hand-grenades legally,right?
Restrictions need to be rolled back to pre-Brady bill.
The price of an M1 is outrageous. (Unless you're not in the US)

[Standing Wolf]

You hear liberals bemoan that people go from chicago to states that sell guns legally and buy them and bring them back to Chicago. They blame the states that sell guns legally and blame the guns.

Whoever buys a gun in fla and brings it to chicago COMMITTED A FELONY. Its a crime to do that.

Just like If a Chicagoan goes to Colorado buys legal weed and brings it to chicago. ITS A FELONY.

Still waiting for someone to explain how the guns apparently only become dangerous instruments of criminality when they're transported from the place where they are relatively easy to obtain to the place where getting them is more difficult. You would think that if the guns, themselves, were the primary problem, rates of firearms-related crime would be much higher where guns are plentiful and getting and keeping them is easy...but exactly the opposite appears to be true.

[Ethereal]

Still waiting for someone to explain how the guns apparently only become dangerous instruments of criminality when they're transported from the place where they are relatively easy to obtain to the place where getting them is more difficult. You would think that if the guns, themselves, were the primary problem, rates of firearms-related crime would be much higher where guns are plentiful and getting and keeping them is easy...but exactly the opposite appears to be true.

You'll be waiting a long time because that explanation doesn't support gun control narratives in any way.

[nic34]

Conservatives still spout nonsense about the 2nd.

Remember Obama was commin' fer yer guns right?


Obama Admin Seeks to Repeal Second Amendment Apart from Congress Via Executive Order


http://freedomoutpost.com/obama-admin-seeks-to-repeal-second-amendment-apart-from-congress-via-executive-order/


Riiiiiiiight :laugh:

[resister]

Still waiting for someone to explain how the guns apparently only become dangerous instruments of criminality when they're transported from the place where they are relatively easy to obtain to the place where getting them is more difficult. You would think that if the guns, themselves, were the primary problem, rates of firearms-related crime would be much higher where guns are plentiful and getting and keeping them is easy...but exactly the opposite appears to be true.Very good point

[Chris]

Conservatives still spout nonsense about the 2nd.

Remember Obama was commin' fer yer guns right?


Obama Admin Seeks to Repeal Second Amendment Apart from Congress Via Executive Order


http://freedomoutpost.com/obama-admin-seeks-to-repeal-second-amendment-apart-from-congress-via-executive-order/


Riiiiiiiight :laugh:


It is silly, the 2nd isn't going away for a long time.

[Bethere]

Still waiting for someone to explain how the guns apparently only become dangerous instruments of criminality when they're transported from the place where they are relatively easy to obtain to the place where getting them is more difficult. You would think that if the guns, themselves, were the primary problem, rates of firearms-related crime would be much higher where guns are plentiful and getting and keeping them is easy...but exactly the opposite appears to be true.
16531

you are more likely to get shot in a high gun ownership state with a Republican governor than anyplace else.

[Chris]

16531

you are more likely to get shot in a high gun ownership state with a Republican governor than anyplace else.

Can you source the data?

[Standing Wolf]

I wouldn't trust the Violence Policy Center to tell me what time of day it was. They have been caught cooking the stats far too many times.

[Bethere]

Can you source the data?
I did.

[Chris]

I wouldn't trust the Violence Policy Center to tell me what time of day it was. They have been caught cooking the stats far too many times.

I suspect a bait and switch.

[Bethere]

I wouldn't trust the Violence Policy Center to tell me what time of day it was. They have been caught cooking the stats far too many times.
Well gee, we have to trust them because the nra and gop made it illegal for the government to use fed funds to track gun shot data.

That, of course, speaks volumes.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun _control_studies_at_cdc.html&ved=0ahUKEwj20evW34jQAhXLKyYKHaGsBZwQFggpMAI&usg=AFQjCNE0aE85uRJTco9AUTwqdZoKJSM_Iw

[Chris]

I did.

What I mean is can you tell us what's being counted there? Just saying VPC tells us next to nothing.

[Chris]

Well gee we have to trust them because the nra and gop made it illegal for the government to track gun shot data.

That, of course, speaks volumes.

So you're saying the data is unreliable, yet you post it a true?

[Standing Wolf]

Well gee we have to trust them because the nra and gop made it illegal for the government to track gun shot data.

That, of course, speaks volumes.

Not true at all - the FBI publishes such statistics all the time. Unfortunately for those obsessed with keeping guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, those statistics don't follow the narrative that they are interested in promoting.

[Peter1469]

16531

you are more likely to get shot in a high gun ownership state with a Republican governor than anyplace else.


That b.s chart has been countered before. Break the data down by locality. Don't worry, Louisiana is represented by New Orleans. Go 30 miles west of NO and you will see almost no gun deaths.

[Bethere]

So you're saying the data is unreliable, yet you post it a true?
Where did I say it was unreliable? With you making up dialog for the master how are you any better than trolls like Homebrew?

[Chris]

Where did I say it was unreliable?...

When you said "illegal for the government to track gun shot data" which I already quoted.

[Bethere]

Not true at all - the FBI publishes such statistics all the time. Unfortunately for those obsessed with keeping guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, those statistics don't follow the narrative that they are interested in promoting.

I'm not one of those people. I am a gun owner and an NRA member. Don't make assumptions about the master.

[Bethere]

When you said "illegal for the government to track gun shot data" which I already quoted.

In that phrase I was talking about the gov's inability to track gun stats, not the data on the charts compiled independently by the VPC.

SO the guy who laughingly lectured me about subjunctive mood the other day is unable in reality to read at a junior high level?

Good times

[Standing Wolf]

That b.s chart has been countered before. Break the data down by locality. Don't worry, Louisiana is represented by New Orleans. Go 30 miles west of NO and you will see almost no gun deaths.

The fact that most if not all of the states in the entire top half of that chart are ones that have a large percentage of their population squeezed into a few large urban centers has got to have a serious effect on the numbers.

[Chris]

In that phrase I was talking about the govs inability to track gun stats, not the data on the charts compiled independently by the VLC.

So you're saying the VPC compiles it's own statistics?

I suggest you look up your source before you make any more spurious claims.

[Peter1469]

The fact that most if not all of the states in the entire top half of that chart are ones that have a large percentage of their population squeezed into a few large urban centers has got to have a serious effect on the numbers.

And have been ruled by the same party almost continuously for decades.

[Bethere]

So you're saying the VPC compiles it's own statistics?

I suggest you look up your source before you make any more spurious claims.

If you
wouldn't mind, explain to standing wolf why you nuked his false point about VPC cooking the books.

Thanks for playing our game.

[Bethere]

The fact that most if not all of the states in the entire top half of that chart are ones that have a large percentage of their population squeezed into a few large urban centers has got to have a serious effect on the numbers.
I suspect
every state fits your description.

[Chris]

If you
wouldn't mind, explain to standing wolf why you nuked his false point about VPC cooking the books.

Thanks for playing our game.


I will show you don't know the source. All you had to do was look it up on VPC's site (http://www.vpc.org/press/states-with-weak-gun-laws-and-higher-gun-ownership-lead-nation-in-gun-deaths-new-data-for-2014-confirms/): "Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis of just-released data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control."

In short they are not the source, they just drew the spiffy chart.


And now to explain the bait and switch.

The OP above speaks of gun crime, homicides.

VPC admits its chart "refers to overall gun death rates." They "include gun homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings."

If you look just at homicides, the topic, then we see something quite different:

https://snag.gy/jmWq0h.jpg

"That looks a lot like a shotgun blast, because at least in 2014, the statistical case that high state gun ownership translates to more gun homicides was non-existent. This is what happens when you just look at the relevant numbers instead of cherrypicking whatever numbers tell the story you want. There's no significant statistical correlation here, whether or not you choose to include D.C. (the outlier, way up above the others). And in fact, when you just look at last year's gun homicide rate by state (calculated from FBI and Census data), you see that many of the states that they claim have low "gun death" rates actually have comparatively high rates of gun murders. New Jersey, for example, had a much higher gun murder rate than Idaho and Vermont."

https://i.snag.gy/h3SZ5x.jpg

@ No, states with higher gun ownership don't have more gun murders (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no-states-with-higher-gun-ownership-dont-have-more-gun-murders/article/2573353)


And not the source of the data is the FBI.

[Bethere]

I will show you don't know the source. All you had to do was look it up on VPC's site (http://www.vpc.org/press/states-with-weak-gun-laws-and-higher-gun-ownership-lead-nation-in-gun-deaths-new-data-for-2014-confirms/): "Violence Policy Center (VPC) analysis of just-released data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control."

In short they are not the source, they just drew the spiffy chart.

And not the source of the data is the FBI.

Once again you slam standing wolf and his false claim that VPC cooked the books.

Now do you understand the bait and switch? I hope you don't so that I can do it to you again sometime soon.

[Bethere]

I suspect a bait and switch.

And yet you fell for it anyway.

Good times.

[Bethere]

Well hey, I am out of here.

You guys were a lot of fun!

[Dr. Who]

That b.s chart has been countered before. Break the data down by locality. Don't worry, Louisiana is represented by New Orleans. Go 30 miles west of NO and you will see almost no gun deaths.
Doesn't it generally stand to reason that there will be more violence in dense population centers where portions of the population are not competitively employed and also don't qualify for welfare?

[MRogersNhood]

Doesn't it generally stand to reason that there will be more violence in dense population centers where portions of the population are not competitively employed and also don't qualify for welfare?

Ask yourself why does that happen.

[Dr. Who]

Ask yourself why does that happen.
There are many economic and sociological reasons that combine to create these situations which are effectively powder kegs awaiting a flame. Ubiquitous lighters exacerbate the situation.

[Bethere]

Ubiquitous lighters exacerbate the situation.

Wow.

[Peter1469]

Doesn't it generally stand to reason that there will be more violence in dense population centers where portions of the population are not competitively employed and also don't qualify for welfare?

NYCs crime rate dropped for a time and then rose again in what period recently? Policies matter. Population density is not the sole root of crime, and likely not even a root cause.

[Bethere]

NYCs crime rate dropped for a time and then rose again in what period recently? Policies matter. Population density is not the sole root of crime, and likely not even a root cause.
Dr. Who > Pete

[Chris]

There are many economic and sociological reasons that combine to create these situations which are effectively powder kegs awaiting a flame. Ubiquitous lighters exacerbate the situation.

OK, but then guns don't seem to be the problem. Overcrowding is, possibly. What allows for such overcrowding?

[Adelaide]

Bethere has been thread banned.

[MRogersNhood]

There are many economic and sociological reasons that combine to create these situations which are effectively powder kegs awaiting a flame. Ubiquitous lighters exacerbate the situation.

New Orleans is a corrupt cesspool full of thieves.

HAHA! @ DC being the worst.

[Dr. Who]

OK, but then guns don't seem to be the problem. Overcrowding is, possibly. What allows for such overcrowding?
Economic necessity. Land prices are higher in large cities, so building owners maximize their rental spaces, especially if they are lower priced accommodations.

[Chris]

Economic necessity. Land prices are higher in large cities, so building owners maximize their rental spaces, especially if they are lower priced accommodations.

It's interesting. You often defend government as making cities possible. Faced with a negative you shift blame to economics.

[Dr. Who]

It's interesting. You often defend government as making cities possible. Faced with a negative you shift blame to economics.
You asked what makes overcrowding possible. I answered. Unless you are talking about the days of the projects, most of which have now been torn down, people with limited incomes from whatever source, seek accommodations that they can afford. Those building or renovating spaces for affordable housing tend to create as many rental spaces in a building as possible. That is often not the government, but private enterprise.

[Chris]

You asked what makes overcrowding possible. I answered. Unless you are talking about the days of the projects, most of which have now been torn down, people with limited incomes from whatever source, seek accommodations that they can afford. Those building or renovating spaces for affordable housing tend to create as many rental spaces in a building as possible. That is often not the government, but private enterprise.


OK, so perhaps we can straighten this out. Economies make population centers possible just as economies make the State possible. The problem on one hand is consumerism, what you just described, and on the other, corrupt cronyism.

[Chris]

So back to topic. Came across this, 5 Tricks Gun-Control Advocates Play (https://mises.org/blog/5-tricks-gun-control-advocates-play), none of which is surprising except one fact.


Number One: Imply that Crime Is Increasing ...

Number Two: "Worst in the Developed World"...

Number Three: Erasing the Distinction Between Suicide and Homicide...

Number Four: "Gun Homicide" vs. Homicide...

Number Five: Over-reliance on Nationwide Statistics...


Oh, yea, that surprising fact: "And finally, there is the problem of the fact that not all countries count homicides in quite the same way. In the US, killings committed in self defense are included as homicides, as are unsolved homicides."

Never knew that.