Job loss

[AZ Jim]

So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.

[Mister D]

Question: if there is no work to do why do developed countries import millions of migrants? When it comes time to defend our insane immigration policy once will you remember your claims about automation?

[MisterVeritis]

So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.
So many excuse the Marxist community organizer for his failure to create a favorable business climate.

[Mister D]

If automation replaces anything it would be the simpler labor roles filled by migrant workers yet...

[Mister D]

Question 2: when companies leave for regions where labor is cheaper do we file that under automation?

[Don]

So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.

"So many fly off the handle and blame Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama (Trump?) for job losses."

Same old story. Automation and technological advances have steadily "put people out of work" for hundreds of years and we have somehow not only survived it but we have greatly benefited by it. It balances itself out. It has to. If every human was replaced by a device owned by a manufacturer, who would be able to buy their products?

[AZ Jim]

Any suggestion about yard work etc being performed by unskilled labor is not a good argument. I'm talking factory jobs that were so dominate in manufacturing in the past and which are drying up do to robotics. Also show me a machine shop that doesn't use NCR machines that does the work profilers and finishers used to do. Put the tape in the machine and wala......

[Cigar]

So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.

I keep trying to tell them that ... :laugh:

[Common]

Read the thread I posted about how many manufacturing jobs were lost under obama over 300,000. Then explain to me why he forces through a Nafta like trade deal when all labor begged him not too. Obama never even glanced at the working class for 8 yrs

[Cigar]

If automation replaces anything it would be the simpler labor roles filled by migrant workers yet...

Automation is not easy, it requires a Skill, no different than a technician needing the skill to work on today's Hi-Tech Automobiles .

Even mounting tires isn't as easy as it was 25 years ago.

[Mister D]

Any suggestion about yard work etc being performed by unskilled labor is not a good argument. I'm talking factory jobs that were so dominate in manufacturing in the past and which are drying up do to robotics. Also show me a machine shop that doesn't use NCR machines that does the work profilers and finishers used to do. Put the tape in the machine and wala......
Not talking about yard work, Jim. Nice try. If you were only talking only about the better paying factory jobs of the past you can stop focusing on automation. There are other political and economic of factors involved which have nothing to do with technology.

[Common]

I keep trying to tell them that ... :laugh:
try telling us the truth

[Mister D]

"So many fly off the handle and blame Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama (Trump?) for job losses."

Same old story. Automation and technological advances have steadily "put people out of work" for hundreds of years and we have somehow not only survived it but we have greatly benefited by it. It balances itself out. It has to. If every human was replaced by a device owned by a manufacturer, who would be able to buy their products?
There is nothing funnier than watching progressives parrot free market capitalists when it suits them.

[Mister D]

Automation is not easy, it requires a Skill, no different than a technician needing the skill to work on today's Hi-Tech Automobiles .

Even mounting tires isn't as easy as it was 25 years ago.
That's nice. Not sure what your point is but I doubt you are either.

Again, if automation has doomed all these manufacturing jobs and the need for unskilled labor why do we import so much of it? It's rhetorical question. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Beevee]

Automation has already replaced Obama with a Tweet application.

[Mister D]

try telling us the truth
Oh, you mean like he's self-employed and drives a corvette? lol

[Mister D]

Automation has already replaced Obama with a Tweet application.
Automation could probably come up with funnier jokes. Damn you're old.

[Cigar]

“We’ve got a lot of job openings. Here’s the catch — over half a million of those jobs are high-tech jobs,” Mr. Obama said. “We tend to think all of these tech jobs are in Silicon Valley at companies like Google or eBay … but the truth is, two-thirds of these jobs are in non high-tech industries like Health Care or Manufacturing or Banking, which means they’re in every corner of the country. There’s no industry that hasn’t been touched by this technology revolution.”

~ Barack Obama 2015 -
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/9/obama-pushes-americans-high-tech-jobs/

[Mister D]

That's nice.

[Peter1469]

People who worked in the various horse and carriage industries found work after Ford ended their jobs.


So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.

[Cigar]

That's nice. Not sure what your point is but I doubt you are either.

Again, if automation has doomed all these manufacturing jobs and the need for unskilled labor why do we import so much of it? It's rhetorical question. You have no idea what you're talking about.
No it hasn't Doom Manufacturing, it's increased is Value and enhanced productivity.

If it takes you 3 days to make something, you not making money for 3 days, you're spending money for 3 days.

Maybe if had to make something you'd know this already

[gamewell45]

So many fly off the handle and blame Obama for job losses. Actually, for a long time in the past and for our future the real culprit is simple. It's automation. Robotic equipment that can, and does, go 24/7 cranking out the work that formally was performed by blue collar workers. Now one engineer sitting at a computer runs any number of robots. No overtime, no sick leave, no theft just cranking out the product.
When most people lose their jobs, the simple knee-jerk reaction is to blame Obama rather then reflect on the changing marketplace and improvements in technology. I believe there is no stopping technology, however while jobs become obsolete, people don't; they can be trained to perform other jobs both in their chosen field or another related field and thus remain viable, productive citizens. The big challenge is changing the mindset of those impacted by job loss due to changes in technology. Just my opinion.

[Cigar]

People who worked in the various horse and carriage industries found work after Ford ended their jobs.

Even building Homes has become modularized and automated

[Cigar]

When most people lose their jobs, the simple knee-jerk reaction is to blame Obama rather then reflect on the changing marketplace and improvements in technology. I believe there is no stopping technology, however while jobs become obsolete, people don't; they can be trained to perform other jobs both in their chosen field or another related field and thus remain viable, productive citizens. The big challenge is changing the mindset of those impacted by job loss due to changes in technology. Just my opinion.

The Guy who use to Pump Gas, found another way to make money or he didn't eat.

[Cigar]

That's nice.

No it's a Fact, only Dinosaurs don't know

[Chris]

"So many fly off the handle and blame Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama (Trump?) for job losses."

Same old story. Automation and technological advances have steadily "put people out of work" for hundreds of years and we have somehow not only survived it but we have greatly benefited by it. It balances itself out. It has to. If every human was replaced by a device owned by a manufacturer, who would be able to buy their products?


Exactly. Automation leads not to job loss but job displacement. Automation creates savings in production and consumption which saving are invested in new products and thereby new jobs. Otherwise you'd have people starving in the streets instead of millions of migrants.

[Chris]

The Guy who use to Pump Gas, found another way to make money or he didn't eat.

Simple as that, and the fact that automation leads to saving and to the creation of new jobs.

[Chris]

Only thing we need to fear is when posting on forums is automated. From the looks of some posts....

[Mister D]

No it hasn't Doom Manufacturing, it's increased is Value and enhanced productivity.

If it takes you 3 days to make something, you not making money for 3 days, you're spending money for 3 days.

Maybe if had to make something you'd know this already
sigh...

So, again, if automation has doomed all these manufacturing jobs and the need for unskilled labor why do we import so much of it?

[Peter1469]

Even building Homes has become modularized and automated

And people get other jobs.

When automation actually takes most jobs away from people, goods will be practically free. The problem of scarcity will be solved.

[Mister D]

Simple as that, and the fact that automation leads to saving and to the creation of new jobs.
That's not the contention here. It's not about whether the impact of automation is good or bad but whether it exists to the extent Jim claimed.

[Mister D]

The fact of the matter is that the social contract between labor and capital has gradually disintegrated since the 1980s and the answers lie not in the technological realm but in the political and economic realms.

[Chris]

That's not the contention here. It's not about whether the impact of automation is good or bad but whether it exists to the extent Jim claimed.

Not and never will reach a post-scarcity society.

Manufacturing is low lying fruit for automation, so are most min wage jobs--McD's which favored min wage to compete with local small sandwich shops, is now automating taking orders.

[Mister D]

Not and never will reach a post-scarcity society.

Manufacturing is low lying fruit for automation, so are most min wage jobs--McD's which favored min wage to compete with local small sandwich shops, is now automating taking orders.
Agree. Post scarcity is a pipe dream.

What makes me laugh is that the people pointing so smugly toward automation are the same people telling us immigrants do the work Americans are too lazy to do. Really? Why does this work exist? Isn't it all automated?

[Peter1469]

Not and never will reach a post-scarcity society.

.

I disagree. When new technologies such as adaptive manufacturing are improved goods will get to very low or even zero prices.

[Chris]

Agree. Post scarcity is a pipe dream.

What makes me laugh is that the people pointing so smugly toward automation are the same people telling us immigrants do the work Americans are too lazy to do. Really? Why does this work exist? Isn't it all automated?

Can't imagine automating lawn moving, cleaning houses, roofing and many other jobs. But can't imagine paying a lot for that either.

[Mister D]

I disagree. When new technologies such as adaptive manufacturing are improved goods will get to very low or even zero prices.
I'm not saying that's impossible but it's Star Trek at this point.

[Mister D]

Can't imagine automating lawn moving, cleaning houses, roofing and many other jobs. But can't imagine paying a lot for that either.
There are a lot of industries where either automation isn't practical or in which the labor market has become so distorted by immigrant labor that employers put off automation indefinitely. That's one way in which immigration retards "progress".

[Peter1469]

I'm not saying that's impossible but it's Star Trek at this point.

Yes. It will be 100 years in the future.

[Chris]

I disagree. When new technologies such as adaptive manufacturing are improved goods will get to very low or even zero prices.

Scarcity has more to do with inputs throughout production, not outputs. Should a resource be used to produce this product or that. Should my work be given over to this or that endeavor which is just one step in producing a good. One might think efficinecies in production would reduce costs to zero but the savings is invested in ever new products which, improved, cost more.

[Chris]

There are a lot of industries where either automation isn't practical or in which the labor market has become so distorted by immigrant labor that employers put off automation indefinitely. That's one way in which immigration retards "progress".

That's true, if you can pay illegals under min wage there's no need to automate.

[Peter1469]

Scarcity has more to do with inputs throughout production, not outputs. Should a resource be used to produce this product or that. Should my work be given over to this or that endeavor which is just one step in producing a good. One might think efficinecies in production would reduce costs to zero but the savings is invested in ever new products which, improved, cost more.


Adaptive manufacturing and other new technologies will change that.

[Mister D]

That's true, if you can pay illegals under min wage there's no need to automate.
Or if you pay legal immigrants low wages. I'm no economics heavy weight but it seems pretty simple to me: bloated labor supply = lower wages.

[Cigar]

Not and never will reach a post-scarcity society.

Manufacturing is low lying fruit for automation, so are most min wage jobs--McD's which favored min wage to compete with local small sandwich shops, is now automating taking orders.

Chris you guys need to really get out in the world and see the things that are Manufactured. Better yet, go to The Consumer Electronics Show in January in Vegas and you'll get to see Manufacturing in a different light.

Example: Take your Garden Variety Smoke Detector, 10 to 15 years ago, all it did was detect Smoke.

Today's Smoke Detectors, detect Smoke & Carbon Monoxide and much more.

I have 8 Smoke Detectors in my home. They all have WiFi and Bluetooth to sync with each other and it (talks) tells you your escape route. They also have motion sensors and a microphone that connects to Alexa Virtual Assistant, or Echo and Google Home to communicate. Since the detectors are in all bedrooms and main hallways, I can adjust either my upstairs or downstairs thermostat by asking Alexa to adjust the temperature.

The company who use to manufacture these smoke detectors had no choice but to upgrade it's technology and it's manufacturing process or go out of business. The design of the Smoke Detector is in the US, but mechanical and electronic assembly is done in Mexico.

[Mister D]

What?

[Chris]

Or if you pay legal immigrants low wages. I'm no economics heavy weight but it seems pretty simple to me: bloated labor supply = lower wages.

Yes, law of supply and demand. Main reason no one has done anything about immigration, restricting it would increase demand and wages.

[Chris]

Adaptive manufacturing and other new technologies will change that.

None of that will affect the allocation of resources in production.

[Cigar]

What?

Open up any piece of equipment ... now you tell me, can you build that and can you build enough of them to make a living. :laugh:

Dismissed :grin:

[Cigar]

None of that will affect the allocation of resources in production.

That's why people got school

[Mister D]

Open up any piece of equipment ... now you tell me, can you build that and can you build enough of them to make a living. :laugh:

Dismissed :grin:
Do you have any idea what we're talking about? :laugh:

[Mister D]

That's why people got school
And the replicator.

[Peter1469]

None of that will affect the allocation of resources in production.

When you can download software to you 3D printer and make whatever you want, it will.

[Chris]

Chris you guys need to really get out in the world and see the things that are Manufactured. Better yet, go to The Consumer Electronics Show in January in Vegas and you'll get to see Manufacturing in a different light.

Example: Take your Garden Variety Smoke Detector, 10 to 15 years ago, all it did was detect Smoke.

Today's Smoke Detectors, detect Smoke & Carbon Monoxide and much more.

I have 8 Smoke Detectors in my home. They all have WiFi and Bluetooth to sync with each other and it (talks) tells you your escape route. They also have motion sensors and a microphone that connects to Alexa Virtual Assistant, or Echo and Google Home to communicate. Since the detectors are in all bedrooms and main hallways, I can adjust either my upstairs or downstairs thermostat by asking Alexa to adjust the temperature.

The company who use to manufacture these smoke detectors had no choice but to upgrade it's technology and it's manufacturing process or go out of business. The design of the Smoke Detector is in the US, but mechanical and electronic assembly is done in Mexico.

Right, so? In order to compete with new product yo have to offer newer products or newer improvements to old products. That's what I meant automation leads to efficiency leads to savings reinvested into new products or improvement of old ones. That's what I meant too the the end price to consumers won't just keep going down, added value means added proce. The last smartphone I bought, sans discounts, was priced around $650, and it was top of the line, now a year later and I'm looking at the latest for $750 for all its new bells and whistles.

[Mister D]

Right, so? In order to compete with new product yo have to offer newer products or newer improvements to old products. That's what I meant automation leads to efficiency leads to savings reinvested into new products or improvement of old ones. That's what I meant too the the end price to consumers won't just keep going down, added value means added proce. The last smartphone I bought, sans discounts, was priced around $650, and it was top of the line, now a year later and I'm looking at the latest for $750 for all its new bells and whistles.
To add to that we also live in a culture where we are manipulated to consume ever more products and resources.

[AZ Jim]

Not talking about yard work, Jim. Nice try. If you were only talking only about the better paying factory jobs of the past you can stop focusing on automation. There are other political and economic of factors involved which have nothing to do with technology.Amigo, I retired as a manager in Production Control with a Large Aero Space Corp. I know a thing or two about the situation.

[Mister D]

Amigo, I retired as a manager in Production Control with a Large Aero Space Corp. I know a thing or two about the situation.

You obviously know nothing about why the social contract you grew up with has disappeared. But that's your brain on partisanship

[Chris]

When you can download software to you 3D printer and make whatever you want, it will.

It cost money for the 3D printer and the materials you print with, and money for the materials that go into the printer, and resources that go into each part, etc.Those resources and materials plus the time and labor put into them are always going to be competed for.

[Peter1469]

It cost money for the 3D printer and the materials you print with, and money for the materials that go into the printer, and resources that go into each part, etc.Those resources and materials plus the time and labor put into them are always going to be competed for.

True. But prices will drop dramatically.

[Chris]

To add to that we also live in a culture where we are manipulated to consume ever more products and resources.

There you go, we always must have more.

But I think all the low hanging fruit have been picked and we cannot keep going that way and will have to accept less. We just need to learn that less can be better. Meanwhile some demand higher min wages.

[Cigar]

When you can download software to you 3D printer and make whatever you want, it will.

That's how prototypes are made, but you can't mass-produce with a printer ... yet

[Beevee]

Automation could probably come up with funnier jokes. Damn you're old.

Hard, isn't it, being on the receiving end instead of being initiators. And you have four years to endure it. Something to look forward to, eh?

[Chris]

Hard, isn't it, being on the receiving end instead of being initiators. And you have four years to endure it. Something to look forward to, eh?

Huh? Are you talking about Trump? Not sure anyone in the thread likes Trump.

[AZ Jim]

You obviously know nothing about why the social contract you grew up with has disappeared. But that's your brain on partisanshipWhat I am "talking about" escaped you and my point had nothing to do with anyone, any political party or anything but simple facts. Net time you see a man park his Lexis and walk past his gardener make a note about the differences between today's labor force required and the "imported unskilled labor". We need both!!

[Mister D]

What I am "talking about" escaped you and my point had nothing to do with anyone, any political party or anything but simple facts. Net time you see a man park his Lexis and walk past his gardener make a note about the differences between today's labor force required and the "imported unskilled labor". We need both!!
Jim, automation did not and does not have the impact you ascribed to it.

[Mister D]

Hard, isn't it, being on the receiving end instead of being initiators. And you have four years to endure it. Something to look forward to, eh?
Beevee, I only ask you actually be funny.

[ripmeister]

Question 2: when companies leave for regions where labor is cheaper do we file that under automation?
No, you file it under the "Lets go to WalMart" instead of buying local mentality.

[ripmeister]

To add to that we also live in a culture where we are manipulated to consume ever more products and resources.
Aint that the truth.

[Don]

Walmart didn't put the local mom and pop stores, hardware stores or local groceries out of business. Woolworth's, J.C. Penny's, Safeway, Gambles and shopping centers did that. Walmart displaced those stores. Walmart will be displaced in the future. By the way, Mom and pop stores didn't pay any better or offer anymore benefits than outfits like Walmart do, maybe less in a lot of cases.

[Cigar]

Walmart didn't put the local mom and pop stores, hardware stores or local groceries out of business. Woolworth's, J.C. Penny's, Safeway, Gambles and shopping centers did that. Walmart displaced those stores. Walmart will be displaced in the future. By the way, Mom and pop stores didn't pay any better or offer anymore benefits than outfits like Walmart do, maybe less in a lot of cases.

You can get just about anything in two days from Amazon :laugh:

... unless you live in the sticks or out is a corn field

[ripmeister]

Walmart didn't put the local mom and pop stores, hardware stores or local groceries out of business. Woolworth's, J.C. Penny's, Safeway, Gambles and shopping centers did that. Walmart displaced those stores. Walmart will be displaced in the future. By the way, Mom and pop stores didn't pay any better or offer anymore benefits than outfits like Walmart do, maybe less in a lot of cases.

Its not about the workers at Wal mart. Its about the goods that stock their shelves and where they are made.

[Don]

The same goods that are in most of the other stores as far as I can determine. Just usually a little cheaper due to their volume of sales.

[Chris]

The same goods that are in most of the other stores as far as I can determine. Just usually a little cheaper due to their volume of sales.

That's pretty much it. Levis are Levis. Apples are apples.

Some products differ, where Walmart and manufacturer cooperate to create something unique like the weed eater I bought last summer with basically a saw blade you could use instead of strings. Other manufacturers offer that, but this came with the blade.

Sometimes you need to be careful buying things in store. I'm shopping for a new TV and WalMart has cheap prices but all the refresh rates are 120 when 240 is top of line--so you just order from Walmart to get the better quality. It's still a Samsung or Sony or LG.

[Chris]

Walmart didn't put the local mom and pop stores, hardware stores or local groceries out of business. Woolworth's, J.C. Penny's, Safeway, Gambles and shopping centers did that. Walmart displaced those stores. Walmart will be displaced in the future. By the way, Mom and pop stores didn't pay any better or offer anymore benefits than outfits like Walmart do, maybe less in a lot of cases.

And when it comes down to it we the consumers put the mom and pops out of business and will eventually put Walmart out. Most of us shop for price and convenience and only occasionally from quality. I shop WalMart but am turning to Amazon more and more.


And that leads to the point that if you want to change things, help people find better jobs in retail, keep immigrants out, etc, etc, etc, you don't change Walmart, you change yourself, ourselves, convince people to do with less, to not demand the latest greatest thingamajig.

[MisterVeritis]

Automation has already replaced Obama with a Tweet application.
Easily. That is the beauty of changes technology allows. The entire state-run media has been replaced by Twitter and Facebook.

[MisterVeritis]

The Guy who use to Pump Gas, found another way to make money or he didn't eat.
We need to get back to that.

[Beevee]

Beevee, I only ask you actually be funny.
Nothing amuses me anymore.

[Mister D]

Nothing amuses me anymore.
It shows.

[MisterVeritis]

Beevee, I only ask you actually be funny.
Hmmm...you have an impossible dream.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KufFjcWOUQ

[Don]

And when it comes down to it we the consumers put the mom and pops out of business and will eventually put Walmart out. Most of us shop for price and convenience and only occasionally from quality. I shop WalMart but am turning to Amazon more and more.


And that leads to the point that if you want to change things, help people find better jobs in retail, keep immigrants out, etc, etc, etc, you don't change Walmart, you change yourself, ourselves, convince people to do with less, to not demand the latest greatest thingamajig.

You are right but automation can help make a lot of those thingamajigs cheaper. Poor people in a lot of countries don't have electricity, sewers and running water in their homes on top of being malnourished. Our poor people have those things, usually eat OK and many have 50" TV's, computers and smart phones, the things the middle class didn't 40 years ago.

The automobile also helped put the mom and pops out of business. Shoppets to small shopping centers to major shopping centers for more of a one stop trip. Walmart put them all under one roof. When most shopping goes online stores like Walmart and Amazon will just be distribution centers. More products available because shelf space won't inhibit them.

I use Amazon a lot and even Walmart online if they can do better than Amazon. Amazon does for online buying what Walmart did for the manufacturers who they buy their products from. Told them how to make their production more productive.