Become a citizen - Would you like to know more?

[Cthulhu]

There is another thread where earning the right to vote has come up. I dig the idea of a meritocracy - big time.

While I find the idea of voting kind of silly for a host of reasons, if we're going to have it, let's make it worth having having worthwhile people actually do it.

We make doctors and other professions endure years schooling in order to claim the title of doctor, lawyer, and so on.

So why shouldn't there be a program to enable people to vote?

Me thinks there should be. Ergo Cthulhu's Citizenship Training. This training is optional and can be undergone any time in life. Although there would be preference given to those at or near the age of adulthood.

The programs would mandate proficiency of all future citizens to be able to:

Do their own taxes.
Get a driver's license.
Be first aid/CPR(EMT/cna optional) proficient. Disaster response training.

Rudimentary combat training for the physically able, weapon safety being mandatory for all. Light infantry training available for those who desire it.

Sign language training, Braille training (catastrophe strikes, but being ahead of the curve makes the transition easier, plus being able communicate silently has all manner of utility).

The ability to speak, read and write English proficiently. Do basic math. Have working knowledge of the legal system of which they are subject to - sort but I think the need of having a lawyer just to keep your self from getting shanghaied at a court room is BS - naturally that would require simplifying our legal code from states and cities to the federal government , from top to bottom; but that is another thread.

Also a working knowledge of the history of the country. And a bout of community service lasting 6 months or so.

The entire program lasting about 2 years or so. A basic program, but could use more fleshing out. However me thinks this serves as a good baseline of those I think should be able to vote.

Thoughts?

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

No.

[Peter1469]

I think that as a representative democracy, we only allow the vote for people who have skin in the game.

We don't need people who are uninformed or disinterested from diluting our votes.

[exploited]

I think that as a representative democracy, we only allow the vote for people who have skin in the game.

We don't need people who are uninformed or disinterested from diluting our votes.

As tempting as it is for me to disenfranchise you... No.

[Cthulhu]

As tempting as it is for me to disenfranchise you... No.
No need to be that way. Just decide to be a citizen and complete your training.

Would you like to know more?

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

No need to be that way. Just decide to be a citizen and complete your training.

Would you like to know more?

Fear profits a man nothing.

Not really.

Your idea is terrible.

[resister]

I think that as a representative democracy, we only allow the vote for people who have skin in the game.

We don't need people who are uninformed or disinterested from diluting our votes.
Somewhere between exploited and pete.Neither to far left or right.Be ye circumspect in all aspects

[resister]

No offense to exploited or pete

[Don]

I think I like the right to vote as it is now.....If you are a citizen 18 years or older. I probably wouldn't mind if we returned the voting age to 21. I don't think being a felon should mean you can never vote again. After you serve your sentence and probation or parole I think your voting rights should be restored. What I would really like to see is making it impossible to vote if you aren't a citizen and to make it impossible to cheat the voting system. Other than that I would like to see the schools from elementary to university be turned back towards places that educate, not indoctrinate, so younger people might be more informed about their government. If that happens I think it would be game over for the establishment party and their democrat and republican wings and their establishment propaganda organs.

[exploited]

Somewhere between exploited and pete.Neither to far left or right.Be ye circumspect in all aspects

You and I both know that giving the government power to decide who has a say in law, and who doesn't, is a terrible idea. One of the worst imaginable. Don't be persuaded by this nonsense.

[resister]

You and I both know that giving the government power to decide who has a say in law, and who doesn't, is a terrible idea. One of the worst imaginable. Don't be persuaded by this nonsense.Too hot is to hot, too cold , is too cold

[exploited]

Too hot is to hot, too cold , is too cold

I don't know what this means.

What I do know is that every person subject to government ought to have a say in it.

Do you disagree?

[Cthulhu]

Not really.

Your idea is terrible.
Stunning rebuttal. Input like this is why I come here.

:rolleyes:

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Dr. Who]

There is another thread where earning the right to vote has come up. I dig the idea of a meritocracy - big time.

While I find the idea of voting kind of silly for a host of reasons, if we're going to have it, let's make it worth having having worthwhile people actually do it.

We make doctors and other professions endure years schooling in order to claim the title of doctor, lawyer, and so on.

So why shouldn't there be a program to enable people to vote?

Me thinks there should be. Ergo Cthulhu's Citizenship Training. This training is optional and can be undergone any time in life. Although there would be preference given to those at or near the age of adulthood.

The programs would mandate proficiency of all future citizens to be able to:

Do their own taxes.
Get a driver's license.
Be first aid/CPR(EMT/cna optional) proficient. Disaster response training.

Rudimentary combat training for the physically able, weapon safety being mandatory for all. Light infantry training available for those who desire it.

Sign language training, Braille training (catastrophe strikes, but being ahead of the curve makes the transition easier, plus being able communicate silently has all manner of utility).

The ability to speak, read and write English proficiently. Do basic math. Have working knowledge of the legal system of which they are subject to - sort but I think the need of having a lawyer just to keep your self from getting shanghaied at a court room is BS - naturally that would require simplifying our legal code from states and cities to the federal government , from top to bottom; but that is another thread.

Also a working knowledge of the history of the country. And a bout of community service lasting 6 months or so.

The entire program lasting about 2 years or so. A basic program, but could use more fleshing out. However me thinks this serves as a good baseline of those I think should be able to vote.

Thoughts?

Fear profits a man nothing.
What does weapon's training, combat training and disaster response training have to do with having the requisite knowledge for citizenship?

[exploited]

Stunning rebuttal. Input like this is why I come here.

:rolleyes:

Fear profits a man nothing.

There is no need to rebut such a terrible idea in a serious way.

If I could, and I was feeling vindictive that day, I would prevent you from voting. I am serious when I say that you are not qualified IMO.

Good thing I'm rational enough to realize that is a bad idea.

[Peter1469]

What does weapon's training, combat training and disaster response training have to do with having the requisite knowledge for citizenship?
Why does it not serve as a good baseline for the franchise?

Or another way, why should twits nullify the votes of real citizens?

[resister]

Too hot is to hot, too cold , is too cold
Pretty much what it means....

[exploited]

Why does it not serve as a good baseline for the franchise?

Or another way, why should twits nullify the votes of real citizens?
Dr. Who, how exactly am I supposed to respond to this in a way that can't be construed as trolling?

Saying mean things is literally required to prove my point, in this instance.

[Cthulhu]

What does weapon's training, combat training and disaster response training have to do with having the requisite knowledge for citizenship?
When weapons were more commonly used, this knowledge was taught. Note it isn't, yer for some reason Wesson availability has increased and safety has decreased.

Disaster response training could have helped a great deal during hurricane Katrina.

Combat training could be beneficial during an attempted mass shooting.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Dr. Who]

Why does it not serve as a good baseline for the franchise?

Or another way, why should twits nullify the votes of real citizens?
None of these things are benchmarks for being an informed voter or a better citizen. Citizens come in all ages and physical capabilities. Are you suggesting that those who have physical disabilities should not be citizens, the elderly or children? If you want well-informed citizens, begin with a good education, including civics class, ethics classes and courses in political science, so that they have the wherewithal to make intelligent decisions.

[resister]

If'n they can handle a 1858 RNMA, I'm goi'n gunnin 4 a hog min,yona(Spanish 4, 2,morrow)

[Peter1469]

The US constitution does not require us to suffer fools and idiots.

[exploited]

The US constitution does not require us to suffer fools and idiots.

:laugh:

[Dr. Who]

When weapons were more commonly used, this knowledge was taught. Note it isn't, yer for some reason Wesson availability has increased and safety has decreased.

Disaster response training could have helped a great deal during hurricane Katrina.

Combat training could be beneficial during an attempted mass shooting.

Fear profits a man nothing.
Would you force citizens to carry weapons at all times?

[Peter1469]

None of these things are benchmarks for being an informed voter or a better citizen. Citizens come in all ages and physical capabilities. Are you suggesting that those who have physical disabilities should not be citizens, the elderly or children? If you want well-informed citizens, begin with a good education, including civics class, ethics classes and courses in political science, so that they have the wherewithal to make intelligent decisions.
Service is critical. You have to be a participate in the system to have a say. Otherwise the takers will bankrupt you.

[Dr. Who]

The US constitution does not require us to suffer fools and idiots.
The US constitution doesn't comment on fools and idiots or intellectual capability in any way.

[Peter1469]

The US constitution doesn't comment on fools and idiots or intellectual capability in any way.

So why do so many people give them coverage?

[Dr. Who]

@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612), how exactly am I supposed to respond to this in a way that can't be construed as trolling?

Saying mean things is literally required to prove my point, in this instance.

Saying mean things is never required when you have a good vocabulary and a cogent argument.

[Dr. Who]

So why do so many people give them coverage?

The media is a business predicated on viewership, entertainment and revenue. You know that, assuming that's what you were getting at. Raising people to believe everything that they see and everything that they are told is a problem. However, even without that, people will not all agree.

[Cthulhu]

Would you force citizens to carry weapons at all times?
No, obviously not. I wouldn't force an asthmatic to carry an inhaler - Drake it being a good idea. But neither would I penalize them for ventilating a wild beast set on murdering his own people.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Dr. Who]

No, obviously not. I wouldn't force an asthmatic to carry an inhaler - Drake it being a good idea. But neither would I penalize them for ventilating a wild beast set on murdering his own people.

Fear profits a man nothing.

What value is weapons knowledge to those who will not carry weapons?

[Cthulhu]

What value is weapons knowledge to those who will not carry weapons?
Would you prefer ignorance?

Because ignorant people find weapons all the time, we have news stories about them.

Often times I'm told education is key to preventing certain problems. Yet here I am being a proponent of it, meeting resistance.

Curious.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Bethere]

What does weapon's training, combat training and disaster response training have to do with having the requisite knowledge for citizenship?
Absolutely nothing.

[Common]

There is another thread where earning the right to vote has come up. I dig the idea of a meritocracy - big time.

While I find the idea of voting kind of silly for a host of reasons, if we're going to have it, let's make it worth having having worthwhile people actually do it.

We make doctors and other professions endure years schooling in order to claim the title of doctor, lawyer, and so on.

So why shouldn't there be a program to enable people to vote?

Me thinks there should be. Ergo Cthulhu's Citizenship Training. This training is optional and can be undergone any time in life. Although there would be preference given to those at or near the age of adulthood.

The programs would mandate proficiency of all future citizens to be able to:

Do their own taxes.
Get a driver's license.
Be first aid/CPR(EMT/cna optional) proficient. Disaster response training.

Rudimentary combat training for the physically able, weapon safety being mandatory for all. Light infantry training available for those who desire it.

Sign language training, Braille training (catastrophe strikes, but being ahead of the curve makes the transition easier, plus being able communicate silently has all manner of utility).

The ability to speak, read and write English proficiently. Do basic math. Have working knowledge of the legal system of which they are subject to - sort but I think the need of having a lawyer just to keep your self from getting shanghaied at a court room is BS - naturally that would require simplifying our legal code from states and cities to the federal government , from top to bottom; but that is another thread.

Also a working knowledge of the history of the country. And a bout of community service lasting 6 months or so.

The entire program lasting about 2 years or so. A basic program, but could use more fleshing out. However me thinks this serves as a good baseline of those I think should be able to vote.

Thoughts?

Fear profits a man nothing.

What you have described is just about the same process European "LEGAL" immigrants that came through ellis island had to go through.

They had to take "ENGLISH" class' you had to know enough english to pass the test. You had to learn english to survive. There was no push 1 for Italian, or Polish. There was no free ANYTHING.
You voted after you EARNED you right to be a citizen.

[exploited]

Saying mean things is never required when you have a good vocabulary and a cogent argument.

The cogent argument in this case is that most of the people arguing for such standards would utterly fail to acquire citizenship, at least if the standards were actually related to the ability to demonstrate rationality and high-level cognitive ability.

Presumably that is why most of the standards suggested have literally no point at all, and relate to menial skills that one is unlikely to ever use and that have zero relationship with actual political decision-making.

[exploited]

Would you prefer ignorance?

Because ignorant people find weapons all the time, we have news stories about them.

Often times I'm told education is key to preventing certain problems. Yet here I am being a proponent of it, meeting resistance.

Curious.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Establish these programs without making them conditions of citizenship, and you'd have my support.

Of course the goal isn't education, it is disenfranchising people you have deemed too stupid or lazy to vote, based on arbitrary and really quite unrelated standards.

[NapRover]

The voting laws are fine, we just need to enforce them. If we're going to have tens of millions of people living here illegally, we must make sure that they can't sway elections by voting.

[Crepitus]

You constitutionalists are always wanting to pick and choose. The 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all guarantee US citizens the right to vote.

All even in the same language I believe I read somewhere.

“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged . . . .”

And yet here are people who would scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of a hint of the thought of even slightly changing anything about the second amendment wanting to ignore 4 others.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Crepitus]

The US constitution does not require us to suffer fools and idiots.

Yea, it does. The first amendment.

[Common Sense]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvTiDnWJLE

[Crepitus]

Why does it not serve as a good baseline for the franchise?

Or another way, why should twits nullify the votes of real citizens?

You've been to the middle east and you can still say that with a straight face?

[Crepitus]

After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion some people need to take "Starship Troopers" off of repeat and watch something else for a while.

[Chris]

One odd aspect of this is that those most adamant about keeping the franchise democratic are likely also those who would restrict the most democratic system we have in the market.

Anyway, as for the question in the OP, I like the idea of those who vote should be those who have skin in the game one way or another, maybe proportionally, if it can be measured--but the cat's out of the bag and you won't be able to take the franchise from those who now have it.

[Common Sense]

Why not just go back to white male land owners?

[Chris]

Why not just go back to white male land owners?

Why be racist?

[Common Sense]

Why be racist?
Dig up a founding father and ask him.

[Safety]

History is racist?

[Crepitus]

Why be racist?

Don't forget sexist and classist.

[Amadeus]

I think that as a representative democracy, we only allow the vote for people who have skin in the game.
I have a better idea. Lets go straight to dollars for votes. Those who have the most dollars get the most say in government. The rest have to count jellybeans.

[Cthulhu]

You constitutionalists are always wanting to pick and choose. The 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all guarantee US citizens the right to vote.

All even in the same language I believe I read somewhere.

“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged . . . .”

And yet here are people who would scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of a hint of the thought of even slightly changing anything about the second amendment wanting to ignore 4 others.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.
Who said the Constitution was perfect?

There are plenty of things I'd love to change in it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Cthulhu]

One odd aspect of this is that those most adamant about keeping the franchise democratic are likely also those who would restrict the most democratic system we have in the market.

Anyway, as for the question in the OP, I like the idea of those who vote should be those who have skin in the game one way or another, maybe proportionally, if it can be measured--but the cat's out of the bag and you won't be able to take the franchise from those who now have it.
I wouldn't bother trying to take the franchise from those who currently have it. I would simply grandfather them in.

If you had the right to vote now you would keep it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Crepitus]

Who said the Constitution was perfect?

There are plenty of things I'd love to change in it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Plenty of people here.

[Cthulhu]

Absolutely nothing.
I don't use 90℅ of the algebra I was forced to learn in public school.

I guess that has nothing to do with being a citizen either.

Better take it out of the program.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Cthulhu]

As tempting as it is for me to disenfranchise you... No.
Technically you couldn't.

Only the person could do that by choosing not to go through it.

The only way to not gain the franchise is through sloth.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Cthulhu]

I don't know what this means.

What I do know is that every person subject to government ought to have a say in it.

Do you disagree?
Even toddlers right? They are subject to this government.

Well you better let them vote then.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Chris]

I wouldn't bother trying to take the franchise from those who currently have it. I would simply grandfather them in.

If you had the right to vote now you would keep it.

Fear profits a man nothing.


I guess I was thinking not of individuals but of groups, women, blacks, etc. If the criteria applied to individuals regardless of group it might work.

[Crepitus]

I don't use 90℅ of the algebra I was forced to learn in public school.

I guess that has nothing to do with being a citizen either.

Better take it out of the program.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Nobody is teaching you algebra as a way to earn your citizenship.

[Cthulhu]

I guess I was thinking not of individuals but of groups, women, blacks, etc. If the criteria applied to individuals regardless of group it might work.
Obviously it must per individual. I don't care who succeeds, fact is I hope everybody does. But if you couldn't make out through the program the rest of the people shouldn't suffer for it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Cthulhu]

Nobody is teaching you algebra as a way to earn your citizenship.
True, but the utility of knowledge still applies.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Crepitus]

True, but the utility of knowledge still applies.

Fear profits a man nothing.

No, it doesn't. There is no comparison at all.

[Cthulhu]

No, it doesn't. There is no comparison at all.
Millions of people are crippled by their inability to do basic math.

I would seek to uncripple then.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[decedent]

We make doctors and other professions endure years schooling in order to claim the title of doctor, lawyer, and so on.

So why shouldn't there be a program to enable people to vote?


There should be a program to enable people to run for office.

[Cthulhu]

There should be a program to enable people to run for office.
Agreed, but another topic entirely.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

Even toddlers right? They are subject to this government.

Well you better let them vote then.

Fear profits a man nothing.
I'm fine with that. There is no good reason why people younger than 18 shouldn't be able to vote.

[exploited]

But since we are playing this game, I would like to put forward my suggestions for how to disenfranchise people I disagree with.

If you don't know machine language, you can't vote.

If you can't provide a reasonable and succinct summary of quantum physics and the trouble we are having incorporating it with general relativity, you can't vote.

If you believe in all-powerful beings that created mankind 6000 years ago, you can't vote.

This would encourage all people to get a better grasp of technology and science, and also prevent those suffering from various delusions from influencing the political system.

[MisterVeritis]

Who said the Constitution was perfect?

Plenty of people here.
Who, in your opinion, believes and has said the Constitution is perfect? Since you believe "plenty of people" it should be easy to provide two or three names, don't you think?

[Cthulhu]

But since we are playing this game, I would like to put forward my suggestions for how to disenfranchise people I disagree with.

If you don't know machine language, you can't vote.

If you can't provide a reasonable and succinct summary of quantum physics and the trouble we are having incorporating it with general relativity, you can't vote.

If you believe in all-powerful beings that created mankind 6000 years ago, you can't vote.

This would encourage all people to get a better grasp of technology and science, and also prevent those suffering from various delusions from influencing the political system.
Way to talk sideways and poison the well.

Stop being a faggot.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Adelaide]

Way to talk sideways and poison the well.

Stop being a faggot.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Do not insult other members.

[Bethere]

But since we are playing this game, I would like to put forward my suggestions for how to disenfranchise people I disagree with.

If you don't know machine language, you can't vote.

If you can't provide a reasonable and succinct summary of quantum physics and the trouble we are having incorporating it with general relativity, you can't vote.

If you believe in all-powerful beings that created mankind 6000 years ago, you can't vote.

This would encourage all people to get a better grasp of technology and science, and also prevent those suffering from various delusions from influencing the political system.

I like the "if you scored below bethere on the SAT you aren't qualified to vote" rule.

[Dr. Who]

Would you prefer ignorance?

Because ignorant people find weapons all the time, we have news stories about them.

Often times I'm told education is key to preventing certain problems. Yet here I am being a proponent of it, meeting resistance.

Curious.

Fear profits a man nothing.
Children find weapons all the time (the weapons are not lost, but left unsecured). Adults who find weapons can't have lived on this planet to adulthood without knowing their purpose or that they may be loaded. If they point a found weapon at someone and shoot, or manage to shoot themselves, it is either intentional or they are so lacking in intellectual capacity that you could not train them to handle weapons safely. As to the kind of training that you are advocating, I believe that there are ROTC programs available. I disagree that it should be mandatory because there is no existential threat of war, unlike places like Israel. However, if you really want to go that route, advocate for mandatory military service out of high school. Many countries still do.

[Dr. Who]

The cogent argument in this case is that most of the people arguing for such standards would utterly fail to acquire citizenship, at least if the standards were actually related to the ability to demonstrate rationality and high-level cognitive ability.

Presumably that is why most of the standards suggested have literally no point at all, and relate to menial skills that one is unlikely to ever use and that have zero relationship with actual political decision-making.
Indeed, a person could learn weapons handling and combat skills and still be functionally illiterate, thus severely limiting their ability to become an informed voter.

[Peter1469]

Yea, it does. The first amendment.

They can speak. They don't need to be pandered too.

[Peter1469]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvTiDnWJLE

Service guarantees citizenship.

[Peter1469]

You've been to the middle east and you can still say that with a straight face?

In Iraq and Afghanistan the average person votes for who their sheik tells them to vote for.

In America many people vote based off looks and hair style.

[Peter1469]

After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion some people need to take "Starship Troopers" off of repeat and watch something else for a while.

Read the book to understand.

The movie is just for fun.

[MisterVeritis]

You constitutionalists are always wanting to pick and choose. The 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all guarantee US citizens the right to vote.
All even in the same language I believe I read somewhere.

“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged . . . .”
And yet here are people who would scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of a hint of the thought of even slightly changing anything about the second amendment wanting to ignore 4 others.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.
What are your thoughts on the tens of thousands of laws infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms?

[Peter1469]

I have a better idea. Lets go straight to dollars for votes. Those who have the most dollars get the most say in government. The rest have to count jellybeans.
I disagree with that plan.

[exploited]

Way to talk sideways and poison the well.

Stop being a $#@!.

Fear profits a man nothing.

What?

If you believe in an invisible all powerful man who created the universe, based on nothing more than documents written thousands of years ago, you aren't qualified to vote.

Sorry. Take it up with the representative you can't vote against if you disagree.

[Dr. Who]

One odd aspect of this is that those most adamant about keeping the franchise democratic are likely also those who would restrict the most democratic system we have in the market.

Anyway, as for the question in the OP, I like the idea of those who vote should be those who have skin in the game one way or another, maybe proportionally, if it can be measured--but the cat's out of the bag and you won't be able to take the franchise from those who now have it.
"Skin in the game" is not simply combat worthiness. Objectively every citizen has skin in the game since their ability to survive and raise families is dependent on having a government that doesn't bring death and destruction down upon their heads or is so fiscally irresponsible that they destroy the economy such that no one can earn a living.

[Cthulhu]

What are your thoughts on the tens of thousands of laws infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms?
Some rights are clearly more important to others for some people.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Peter1469]

What?

If you believe in an invisible all powerful man who created the universe, based on nothing more than documents written thousands of years ago, you aren't qualified to vote.

Sorry. Take it up with the representative you can't vote against if you disagree.

Most people who vote or not anti-theists.

[Cthulhu]

What?

If you believe in an invisible all powerful man who created the universe, based on nothing more than documents written thousands of years ago, you aren't qualified to vote.

Sorry. Take it up with the representative you can't vote against if you disagree.
Your belief in government is your weakness.

Enjoy.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

Most people who vote or not anti-theists.

Well after we weed out those who believe in something they've never seen and cannot rationally prove (ie those suffering from delusions), that just won't be the case, will it?

Limiting enfranchisement is the single worst argument I've ever seen put forward here. Especially when it is libertarians doing it. The dissonance, man. It is just so vast.

[exploited]

Your belief in government is your weakness.

Enjoy.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Oh, so you're an anarchist? You believe that there should be no government?

[Cthulhu]

Oh, so you're an anarchist? You believe that there should be no government?
I can only wonder what you think a man like me believes.

Explaining it to you would be a waste of time.

Aside note, you actually did send me a message a while ago. What was it about? I forgot. I remember being in response to a thread and will reply via pm. I just now saw it. I don't check messages often.
Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

I can only wonder what you think a man like me believes.

Explaining it to you would be a waste of time.

Fear profits a man nothing.

It is just funny because we all know you believe in government, otherwise you wouldn't bother trying to "improve it" with these suggestions.

So either your point was silly, or you're a hypocrite. It doesn't matter to me which path you take from here, just choose one and stick with it.

[MisterVeritis]

"Skin in the game" is not simply combat worthiness. Objectively every citizen has skin in the game since their ability to survive and raise families is dependent on having a government that doesn't bring death and destruction down upon their heads or is so fiscally irresponsible that they destroy the economy such that no one can earn a living.
End the welfare state. It is unconstitutional. Raise the voting age to 25 for those not serving in the military. Prove you are a net taxpaying citizen to be eligible to vote in a given election.

[Cthulhu]

It is just funny because we all know you believe in government, otherwise you wouldn't bother trying to "improve it" with these suggestions.

So either your point was silly, or you're a hypocrite. It doesn't matter to me which path you take from here, just choose one and stick with it.
Lol.

Belief in something and acknowledging its existence are very different.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Adelaide]

Probably unconstitutional to force people to get an education before being allowed to vote.

[MisterVeritis]

If you believe in an invisible all powerful man who created the universe, based on nothing more than documents written thousands of years ago, you aren't qualified to vote.

I would take an opposite approach. If you believe that your rights are given to you by God and cannot be taken away by government, I want you to be a voter. If you have no such belief you are likely very dangerous to the liberties of your fellow citizens.

[exploited]

Lol.

Belief in something and acknowledging its existence are very different.

Fear profits a man nothing.

So you're an anarchist? Opposed to the rule of law, as determined by government?

[Cthulhu]

So you're an anarchist? Opposed to the rule of law, as determined by government?
Perhaps you should stop trying to put me in a classification.

The closest thing I align with is the libertarian party or constitutionalist party. Despite that they both have rather obvious flaws I don't like. But they are better that either major party.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

Perhaps you should stop trying to put me in a classification.

The closest thing I align with is the libertarian party or constitutionalist party. Despite that they both have rather obvious flaws I don't like. But they are better that either major party.

Fear profits a man nothing.

So you do believe in government, just with a particular ideological bend. I guess you and I have the same failings ;)

[Cthulhu]

So you do believe in government, just with a particular ideological bend. I guess you and I have the same failings ;)
Acknowledging it exists does not mean belief in it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[exploited]

Acknowledging it exists does not mean belief in it.

Fear profits a man nothing.

So you don't believe the government is necessary, or that it should exist? You do not believe it has a role to play?

I'd just apologize for making the statement and move on. It was a silly statement and there is no need to jump through these hoops qualifying it.

[Crepitus]

Millions of people are crippled by their inability to do basic math.

I would seek to uncripple then.

Fear profits a man nothing.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Crepitus]

In Iraq and Afghanistan the average person votes for who their sheik tells them to vote for.

In America many people vote based off looks and hair style.

Sadly true.

[Crepitus]

Read the book to understand.

The movie is just for fun.

I have read the book. Was a favourite when I was a kid, along with a lot of other Heinlein novels.

[Crepitus]

What are your thoughts on the tens of thousands of laws infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms?

Not the topic.

[MisterVeritis]

Not the topic.

You believe one part of the Constitution is absolute while another part is relative. Don't you?

Anyone can vote. Therefore anyone can keep and bear arms.

Your unwillingness to defend your position is not surprising. You brought up the second amendment.

Here is what you wrote:
You constitutionalists are always wanting to pick and choose. The 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all guarantee US citizens the right to vote. All even in the same language I believe I read somewhere.
“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged . . . .”

And yet here are people who would scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of a hint of the thought of even slightly changing anything about the second amendment wanting to ignore 4 others. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Cthulhu]

So you don't believe the government is necessary, or that it should exist? You do not believe it has a role to play?

I'd just apologize for making the statement and move on. It was a silly statement and there is no need to jump through these hoops qualifying it.
The need of government is largely dependent on the population.

The larger the population, the more necessary and oppressive a government must be to maintain order and it's power.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Bethere]

Service guarantees citizenship.
"It really doesn't, " said Timothy McVeigh.

[Bethere]

I would take an opposite approach. If you believe that your rights are given to you by God and cannot be taken away by government, I want you to be a voter. If you have no such belief you are likely very dangerous to the liberties of your fellow citizens.
Wow.

[Crepitus]

You believe one part of the Constitution is absolute while another part is relative. Don't you?

Anyone can vote. Therefore anyone can keep and bear arms.

Your unwillingness to defend your position is not surprising. You brought up the second amendment.

Here is what you wrote:
You constitutionalists are always wanting to pick and choose. The 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th amendments all guarantee US citizens the right to vote. All even in the same language I believe I read somewhere.
“The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged . . . .”

And yet here are people who would scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of a hint of the thought of even slightly changing anything about the second amendment wanting to ignore 4 others. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Again. Not the topic. Not going off on some wild asses tangent with you.

[MisterVeritis]

I would take an opposite approach. If you believe that your rights are given to you by God and cannot be taken away by government, I want you to be a voter. If you have no such belief you are likely very dangerous to the liberties of your fellow citizens.

Wow.
I have that effect on many people. I especially love it when the women are wowed.

[MisterVeritis]

You brought up the second amendment.

Again. Not the topic. Not going off on some wild asses tangent with you.
I get it. Weak minds run.