View Full Version : Gender Dysphoria, Questions and Answers
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 10:12 AM
First off, my decision to place this thread in "The Science, Health, and Technology Room" as opposed to "The Gender, Sexuality, and Race Room" was intentional and purposeful. Indeed, the ostensible distinction between these two "rooms" on tPF is a microcosm of the larger issue I was hoping to address, i.e., science versus politics.
Because for me, this particular issue has always been a question of science, specifically, medical science. The question of politics, in my opinion, is more or less a byproduct of the scientific examination of gender dysphoria.
However, there is an increasingly influential and vocal segment of society who insist on making this issue almost entirely political, with science being treated more as an afterthought than a starting point.
Nowhere is this kind of distinction between science and politics more evident in what happened to Dr. Kenneth Zucker (formerly of the Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) in Toronto) who, in December of 2015, was unceremoniously fired by administrators at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH).
This excellent article (http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html) from New York Magazine describes what was nothing more than a politically-motivated witch-hunt designed to reinforce a particular set of orthodoxies about gender dysphoria, orthodoxies which Dr. Zucker's clinic were challenging, albeit in the most indirect and passive manner possible.
Although the article is quite long, it is well worth reading for anyone who is interested in this topic. What it reveals about the political dimensions of this issue (as opposed to its scientific dimensions) are quite revealing, not to mention disturbing.
Demonstrably false accusations, histrionic gossip, and polemical screeds are just a few of the tactics used by the politically-motivated to silence and ostracize anyone who questions the prevailing orthodoxy.
So what was Dr. Zucker's awful crime? Simply put, he dared to ask why a particular child was presenting with symptoms of gender dysphoria instead of uncritically accepting those symptoms as prima facie evidence that the child was, in fact, "transgender". As the article explains, to even ask that question is seen as offensive and bigoted by the politically motivated. Yet, to ask why something happens is an integral component of the scientific method. Not only is it entirely proper and therefore inoffensive, it is essential.
Granted, there were several other points of contention raised in the article, but that particular question speaks to the heart of the matter, i.e., science versus politics. On the one hand, you have scientifically minded individuals like Dr. Zucker whose approach is complex, explorative, and subject to uncertainties, while on the other hand, you have the politically minded individuals whose approach is simplistic, narrow, and dogmatic.
While I have a great deal more to say on this issue, I will simply leave at that for now as I feel the debate has been adequately framed.
Comments and thoughts are welcomed, but I would strongly encourage you to READ THE ARTICLE before commenting, though I have a sneaking suspicion that most will not even attempt as much.
Common
12-05-2016, 11:00 AM
My god that was the longest article ive ever read and I possibly didnt grasp a third of it.
I mulled several different responses to this my first though was to say Ethereal I read the entire article and I have no comment.
I am not qualified to make any comments on the science, I didnt formally finish the 8th grade. I do however have some personal comments.
Why in the world are the taking children 3yrs old and putting them in a clinic to determine if they have gender-dysphoria-dessitance for GODS SAKE let the kid be a kid. It seems they want to take these children and talk them into either having gender dysphoria or being transgender, if you left them alone they may grow out of it but in the end they will be what they will be.
Too many times science LIES to keep their jobs and to keep the grant money flowing. They get paid to run these clinics that to me are ridiculous and do more harm than good. LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE.
My cousin close to my age used to play with dolls when he was a kid, if you took the doll from him he would scream bloody murder. The family dr said let him have the doll he will dump it when hes ready.
At around 6 he never picked it up again, hes been married 45 yrs and is a grandfather.
Today they might have brought him to one of these clinics and talked him into being a girl or something.
I know im not educated in this at all, I just believe they should close all these clinics and let the kids be kids and find their own way to what and how they will turn out. Like we did for thousands of years.
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 11:19 AM
My god that was the longest article ive ever read and I possibly didnt grasp a third of it.
I mulled several different responses to this my first though was to say Ethereal I read the entire article and I have no comment.
I am not qualified to make any comments on the science, I didnt formally finish the 8th grade. I do however have some personal comments.
Why in the world are the taking children 3yrs old and putting them in a clinic to determine if they have gender-dysphoria-dessitance for GODS SAKE let the kid be a kid. It seems they want to take these children and talk them into either having gender dysphoria or being transgender, if you left them alone they may grow out of it but in the end they will be what they will be.
Too many times science LIES to keep their jobs and to keep the grant money flowing. They get paid to run these clinics that to me are ridiculous and do more harm than good. LEAVE THE KIDS ALONE.
My cousin close to my age used to play with dolls when he was a kid, if you took the doll from him he would scream bloody murder. The family dr said let him have the doll he will dump it when hes ready.
At around 6 he never picked it up again, hes been married 45 yrs and is a grandfather.
Today they might have brought him to one of these clinics and talked him into being a girl or something.
I know im not educated in this at all, I just believe they should close all these clinics and let the kids be kids and find their own way to what and how they will turn out. Like we did for thousands of years.
The article highlights roughly two different approaches to the issue.
One approach is the "wait and see" strategy that you've described, albeit in a somewhat rudimentary fashion.
The other approach is the "gender affirmative" approach where children are actively encouraged to embrace their perceived gender identities.
Dr. Zucker, who was in charge of the Gender Identity Clinic (GIC), took the first approach and that is why he was fired.
In other words, there are actually medical scientists who tend to agree with your approach to symptoms of gender dysphoria. However, they are being attacked and maligned by the "gender affirmative" ideologues who more closely resemble a political movement than a scientific one.
You see the same mindset in a lot of places. They sound a lot like middle age churches where they proscribed the agenda and you had damn well better go along. The earth orbits the sun? Prison. I think people can be easily conditioned and they want to go along to get along. Putting a penalty on not going along can make some people who do go along tell themselves that they are going along of their own volition. Like the churches of those days these "scientists" still punish those who don't go along. Back then it was just ignorance and superstition but today there is no superstition or ignorance. This is smart people with an agenda and they will push that agenda forward and roll over anyone who gets in their way. Its political science. We just need to stand up to them.
Mister D
12-05-2016, 12:12 PM
Thanks for posting this. I will read later.
exploited
12-05-2016, 12:16 PM
We really need to stop treating gender dysphoria at such a young age. If the problems persist for years at a time, then perhaps more direct intervention should be made. But given the extremity of solutions for gender dysphoria, it only makes sense to be cautious, and address other possible causes first. Why people are taking their three year olds in is simply bizarre to me.
Mister D
12-05-2016, 12:16 PM
You see the same mindset in a lot of places. They sound a lot like middle age churches where they proscribed the agenda and you had damn well better go along. The earth orbits the sun? Prison. I think people can be easily conditioned and they want to go along to get along. Putting a penalty on not going along can make some people who do go along tell themselves that they are going along of their own volition. Like the churches of those days these "scientists" still punish those who don't go along. Back then it was just ignorance and superstition but today there is no superstition or ignorance. This is smart people with an agenda and they will push that agenda forward and roll over anyone who gets in their way. Its political science. We just need to stand up to them.
The Medieval church wasn't like that but we can discuss that another time. I don't want to derail his thread.
Anyway, this is nothing new and hardly limited to gender dysphoria. Race and homosexuality are two other issues where the proper limits of research are to some extent ideologically circumscribed.
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 12:23 PM
We really need to stop treating gender dysphoria at such a young age. If the problems persist for years at a time, then perhaps more direct intervention should be made. But given the extremity of solutions for gender dysphoria, it only makes sense to be cautious, and address other possible causes first. Why people are taking their three year olds in is simply bizarre to me.
My problem isn't with treatment per se, but with particular approaches to treatment that take a child's claims and statements as prima facie evidence that said child is "transgender" instead of conducting a thorough examination into why they're making such statements and proceeding from there.
In other words, there are some people who seem far more concerned with "affirming" than they are with describing and explaining.
exploited
12-05-2016, 12:31 PM
My problem isn't with treatment per se, but with particular approaches to treatment that take a child's claims and statements as prima facie evidence that said child is "transgender" instead of conducting a thorough examination into why they're making such statements and proceeding from there.
In other words, there are some people who seem far more concerned with "affirming" than they are with describing and explaining.
I just don't see the need at that age, to be honest. Being explorative and curious and confused about gender is perfectly natural for kids. Perhaps once they are 7-8, and have had issues for 3-4 years, it would make more sense to me.
Until then it seems like a bit of an overreaction. Oh no, my kid likes dolls instead of fire trucks, better take him to the doctor! Know what I mean? Like who are these people?
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 12:35 PM
For example, one parent describes an incident involving her son where he told her that he wanted to cut his penis off with scissors. To me, that indicates a need for treatment. The question is what sort of treatment do they need? The "gender affirmative" ideologues would claim that this child's statement is prima facie evidence that he is "transgender" and that his perceived female identity needs to be affirmed in order to facilitate a smoother "transition" from boy to girl. Dr. Zucker, on the other hand, would take the traditional scientific approach of asking why he made such statements and then proceeding from there, tailoring the treatment to meet the specific needs of the patient.
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 12:35 PM
I just don't see the need at that age, to be honest. Being explorative and curious and confused about gender is perfectly natural for kids. Perhaps once they are 7-8, and have had issues for 3-4 years, it would make more sense to me.
Until then it seems like a bit of an overreaction. Oh no, my kid likes dolls instead of fire trucks, better take him to the doctor! Know what I mean? Like who are these people?
Just curious. Did you read the article?
Common
12-05-2016, 12:38 PM
The article highlights roughly two different approaches to the issue.
One approach is the "wait and see" strategy that you've described, albeit in a somewhat rudimentary fashion.
The other approach is the "gender affirmative" approach where children are actively encouraged to embrace their perceived gender identities.
Dr. Zucker, who was in charge of the Gender Identity Clinic (GIC), took the first approach and that is why he was fired.
In other words, there are actually medical scientists who tend to agree with your approach to symptoms of gender dysphoria. However, they are being attacked and maligned by the "gender affirmative" ideologues who more closely resemble a political movement than a scientific one.
Thats whats wrong with science and politics mixing. There should always be DEBATE with science because its not precise and based alot of times on opinion. There should be two sides but here in this case they fired one side to stifle it.
exploited
12-05-2016, 12:38 PM
Just curious. Did you read the article?
I did. They mentioned that one kid was fixated on playing with particular toys. This was for some reason preventing him from playing with his older brothers. Rather than address the issue the normal way - "Hey, play with your brother" - they took him to the doctors and made progress by taking away those toys for a time and then introducing gender-neutral alternatives.
I'm just wondering why exactly this requires a doctor. I strongly suspect that people think gender dysphoria is way more common than it is, and that they are confusing simple behavioural issues with an actual illness. Which bothers me because they are kids and development is always rocky.
The doctor who got fired seems to agree that it is only a problem when the issues are consistent over time. I'm just saying that when you have kids as young as four or five in there, you haven't even established a consistent problem yet.
Common
12-05-2016, 12:41 PM
I just don't see the need at that age, to be honest. Being explorative and curious and confused about gender is perfectly natural for kids. Perhaps once they are 7-8, and have had issues for 3-4 years, it would make more sense to me.
Until then it seems like a bit of an overreaction. Oh no, my kid likes dolls instead of fire trucks, better take him to the doctor! Know what I mean? Like who are these people?
Neither do I. If they left those kids alone they would turn out what their dna and heart and mind tells them they are. I believe they are doing more to screw these kids up than anything else.
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 12:46 PM
I did. They mentioned that one kid was fixated on playing with particular toys. This was for some reason preventing him from playing with his older brothers. Rather than address the issue the normal way - "Hey, play with your brother" - they took him to the doctors and made progress by taking away those toys for a time and then introducing gender-neutral alternatives.
I'm just wondering why exactly this requires a doctor.
Actually, it was his younger brothers, and it wasn't limited to just them, but to his entire peer group. The mother says he became "really uncomfortable" with "mixed peer groups" and that he was "extremely obsessional" in playing with his dolls.
To me, this not your normal exploration and gender confusion that many young children display. Whether or not this REQUIRES a doctor is a valid question, but I don't see the harm in seeking one out and perhaps obtaining some treatment. And it's not as if the treatment we're talking about is extreme, like hormone "therapy" or surgery. It basically boils down to observation and limited behavioral modification, which is probably what the parent would be doing anyway. The only difference is that they're doing it with a medical doctor's help.
exploited
12-05-2016, 12:54 PM
Actually, it was his younger brothers, and it wasn't limited to just them, but to his entire peer group. The mother says he became "really uncomfortable" with "mixed peer groups" and that he was "extremely obsessional" in playing with his dolls.
To me, this not your normal exploration and gender confusion that many young children display. Whether or not this REQUIRES a doctor is a valid question, but I don't see the harm in seeking one out and perhaps obtaining some treatment. And it's not as if the treatment we're talking about is extreme, like hormone "therapy" or surgery.
This is unlikely to be harmful to the child, but I wonder how much this costs the Canadian taxpayer. Being uncomfortable in mixed peer groups isn't unusual, especially when you have no experience with it, and being obsessed with dolls was only an issue because it was dolls and not a more usual toy that his brothers liked. If it had been Lego they'd say he was a genius or a future engineering student.
If anything, what this article proves to me is that people are approaching normal behavioural issues as clinical issues, which is something that we have seen for the past twenty years, with kids being diagnosed with all manner of issues. Take the kids dolls away and work with him to find other things he likes. Problem solved. I don't even know what playing with dolls has to do with feeling like the opposite gender...
Ethereal
12-05-2016, 01:08 PM
This is unlikely to be harmful to the child, but I wonder how much this costs the Canadian taxpayer. Being uncomfortable in mixed peer groups isn't unusual, especially when you have no experience with it, and being obsessed with dolls was only an issue because it was dolls and not a more usual toy that his brothers liked. If it had been Lego they'd say he was a genius or a future engineering student.
If anything, what this article proves to me is that people are approaching normal behavioural issues as clinical issues, which is something that we have seen for the past twenty years, with kids being diagnosed with all manner of issues. Take the kids dolls away and work with him to find other things he likes. Problem solved. I don't even know what playing with dolls has to do with feeling like the opposite gender...
Again, what his own mother described was not normal, healthy behavior. According to her, he was "extremely obsessed" with his dolls to the point where it was hampering his ability to socialize with his peer group and his own siblings. Perhaps this could have been fixed without a medical doctor, but what harm is there in seeking out one's advice? As for the tax issue, that is a valid question but beyond the scope of this discussion. I merely want to examine the effectiveness of and motivations behind the differing treatment modalities for gender-related psychological disorders.
Standing Wolf
12-05-2016, 03:54 PM
I agree with everyone else who has weighed in on the subject here. And yes, as Mister D points out, other issues exist in which things - and not just research - get "ideologically circumscribed" (apt description).
As an example, while societal advances like marriage equality and laws - where they exist - prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation might not have ever happened without gay people engaging in identity politics and participating in the process as a bloc, that development has resulted in a rigid and - perhaps ironically - conservative view of sexual identity among many gay and lesbian activists, leaders and writers.
They may reluctantly agree to be associated with groups that promote a "GLBTQI" agenda, but many (particularly older) activists are not shy about saying that they really wish those who identify with all but the first two letters would just go away. In the West, it used to be that expressions of same-sex intimacy were just something that happened to many people, at one point in their lives or another, and didn't necessarily mean that a life-long "identity" had been formed and set in stone, so to speak; some non-Western cultures retain that view. The attitude of many gay and lesbian activists is that unless and until you come out and identify as G or L - regardless of the reality, or the fact that it may just be more complicated than that - you're really of no use to "the cause".
Ethereal
01-06-2017, 01:49 PM
The futility of gender-neutral parenting (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-soh-gender-neutral-parenting-20170106-story.html)
steadfast pursuit of gender equality and to promote nonconformity, it’s become popular in some social circles to start early, very early, by raising young children in a gender-neutral way: not revealing the baby’s sex at birth, dressing them and their bedroom in various shades of oatmeal, encouraging them to play with gender-neutral toys. There’s also pressure on corporations to help; parental complaints led Target to stop sex-segregating its toys, for instance.
Offering kids the opportunity to pursue what they’d like, freed from societal expectations, is an undeniably positive thing — whether it has to do with toys, clothing, or their future aspirations. But the scientific reality is that it’s futile to treat children as blank slates with no predetermined characteristics. Biology matters.
A large and long-standing body of research literature shows that toy preferences, for example, are innate, not socially constructed or shaped by parental feedback.
Most girls will gravitate toward socially interesting toys, like dolls, that help social and verbal abilities develop. Most boys will gravitate toward toys that are mechanically interesting, like cars and trucks, fostering visuo-spatial skills.
...
Biology matters. Who knew?
Standing Wolf
01-06-2017, 05:48 PM
Biology matters. Who knew?
Male and female brains are not the same, in some respects. There was a fascinating series of shows some years ago called Brain Sex, which dealt with the differences, as well as the consequences of those differences and even, in some cases, their possible evolutionary origins. My favorite segment involved a study of very young children, who were placed inside a booth and given a string to pull. Each time the string was pulled, the child got a piece of candy. At some point, candy stopped being dispensed, and the little girls would pull the string several times, get no candy, and then begin to cry. The boys tended to go on pulling the string until it broke. :grin:
I note with some embarrassment that my last post in this thread was pretty off-topic, for which I apologize - I'll try to do better this time.
I don't know when I'm going to find the time to read the article, though I plan to eventually. In the meantime, someone mentioned wondering what the parents' motivations might be and how they affect what treatment is being sought and applied in any particular case, and I believe that is an important question.
Having myself raised five children, four boys and a girl, I know how easy it is for a parent to become somewhat obsessional about the least health or welfare concern, when it comes to his or her kids. The employment of experts serves to reassure the parent that they are doing everything possible to help, and also shifts some of the responsibility for "solving" the problem onto someone else's shoulders.
As to why those medical professionals who favor a very early diagnosis and (what might be considered) a premature and radical course of action, i.e., assuming that the child is transgender, might be favored by certain parents and their advice and action plans adopted, I have to wonder whether the political climate is such that some parents - particularly those who self-identify as liberal or progressive - feel pressured to do so...perhaps even a bit proud of themselves for doing "the right thing". I would stop well short of accusing some parents of thinking of having a transgender child as being chic, but well...perhaps I wouldn't.
Dr. Who
01-06-2017, 06:52 PM
Biology matters. Who knew?
Yet as a child, I had little use for dolls (I'm a girl). I liked boy toys and stuffed animals best. I played with boys almost exclusively until I was about eleven and then I started gravitating to more mixed company and became more interested in looking like a girl. However, since my parents never made a big deal about the fact that I was a tomboy, I never thought of myself as a boy. I was just me. Nevertheless, while I am not even remotely gay or transgendered, I still prefer the company of males. Had I been raised in today's society, the fact that I liked boy activities, didn't like dresses and didn't much care for female companionship might have had my parents heading to the doctor.
I don't think that preferences for toys, dress or choice of friends define a child's gender identity. I think what makes a child comfortable in play is simply a reflection of their interests at the time. If there is gender dysphoria, it is far more likely that a child of 11 or 12 can express who they believe themselves to be than a 3 or 4-year-old. Even then, I don't think that any surgery should ever be contemplated until the age of 21. I knew a 'girl' who was a pre-op 18-year-old male who no one would have believed was a boy. He had no male characteristics that anyone could see. He was very pretty and very tiny. He had the surgery to make him a woman at the age of 19. By the time he was 20, he regretted doing so. He had started to lose his identification as a female.
Mister D
01-06-2017, 09:41 PM
(I'm a girl).
Yes, you are a girl and no amount of mutilation will change that fact.
AeonPax
01-06-2017, 10:12 PM
`
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I read about 3 minutes into your link then skimmed through the rest. This is too heavy for 9 PM. I bookmarked it and will read fully later. I will say this, as a bisexual, I am concerned that those pushing an invasive medical procedure are misdiagnosing budding bisexuality for a subconscious yearning to be the opposite gender.
Standing Wolf
01-06-2017, 11:18 PM
I will say this, as a bisexual, I am concerned that those pushing an invasive medical procedure are misdiagnosing budding bisexuality for a subconscious yearning to be the opposite gender.
Good point...the child might grow up to be bisexual, or, for that matter, gay or lesbian. From what I hear, there isn't any special surgery required for that. :rollseyes:
I am also concerned that anyone would assume that because a small child's interests trend toward a particular gender stereotype, in terms of what toys members of one's sex are supposed to want to play with, that he or she will inevitably be attracted, romantically and/or sexually, to a particular type of person. A male child could enjoy playing with dolls and grow up to be as heterosexual as could be...or, like Dr. Who, be a total tomboy and grow up to be straight.
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