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View Full Version : tPF Town Hall 12/10-11/2016



Chris
12-10-2016, 08:15 AM
This will be an open meeting during which members can ask questions and state complaints, and moderators will try to respond. Feel free to ask any questions and make any complaints. However, the town hall will be strictly moderated. We can talk about trolls and trolling but you can't talk about members. We can talk about moderation in general but not any specific moderation action.


Clarification: The town hall is this thread.

MMC
12-10-2016, 09:44 AM
So what do you mods consider trolling? That you are all on the same page about.

Chris
12-10-2016, 09:49 AM
So what do you mods consider trolling? That you are all on the same page about.

We recently added a trolling rules supplied us by VIPs: "2. Trolling a poster or a thread is against the rules. Trolling is defined by forum leadership as "deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."" See http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/31827-The-Political-Forums-Rules-and-Regulations

Some mod discussion has agreed there needs to be a pattern of that to determine deliberateness.

MMC
12-10-2016, 09:56 AM
We recently added a trolling rules supplied us by VIPs: "2. Trolling a poster or a thread is against the rules. Trolling is defined by forum leadership as "deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."" See http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/31827-The-Political-Forums-Rules-and-Regulations

Some mod discussion has agreed there needs to be a pattern of that to determine deliberateness.

How can you talk about the issue if you can't name the same members that constantly, pull that crap?

resister
12-10-2016, 09:57 AM
Some of that happens regularly.No need to mention names,we all know who they are

Bethere
12-10-2016, 09:59 AM
What is a vip? What powers do they have? Why are they special? Why do they get to select themselves? Why isn't there a periodic open vote?

resister
12-10-2016, 10:00 AM
What is a vip? What powers do they have? Why are they special?I think they are donating members

Cigar
12-10-2016, 10:01 AM
How can you talk about the issue if you can't name the same members that constantly, pull that crap?

Mommy it's not fair

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:03 AM
How can you talk about the issue if you can't name the same members that constantly, pull that crap?

We moderate behavior is why.

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:07 AM
What is a vip? What powers do they have? Why are they special? Why do they get to select themselves? Why isn't there a periodic open vote?

A member recognized for contributions made with good faith behavior.

VIPs are responsible for designing the forum. They can, by consensus, decide a rule, like they did with the trolling rule.

Who better to elect VIPs than other VIPs.

Opening VIPs to more is something to consider.

resister
12-10-2016, 10:07 AM
Mommy it's not fair
The fair comes to town once a year and your late

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:07 AM
I think they are donating members

Not necessary for being a VIP.

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:07 AM
Mommy it's not fair

Stop, please. Let's be constructive here.

MMC
12-10-2016, 10:08 AM
Mommy it's not fair


No need to cry for your mommy.....take it to the Hole if youre man enough. :laugh:

resister
12-10-2016, 10:08 AM
Not necessary for being a VIP.
I see

Bethere
12-10-2016, 10:09 AM
A member recognized for contributions made with good faith behavior.

VIPs are responsible for designing the forum. They can, by consensus, decide a rule, like they did with the trolling rule.

Who better to elect VIPs than other VIPs.

Opening VIPs to more is something to consider.

What do you mean by 'contributions made?'

Why do so many vips stop posting on a regular basis? Why are a few so troll-like in nature?

Why the secrecy?

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:09 AM
Note, my responses here are mine but are as best I can representative of the administrative team. Other mods are free to jump in with their views. We don't always agree though we do work by consensus.

MMC
12-10-2016, 10:10 AM
We moderate behavior is why.
Then you Mods already know who the disruptors are and the ones dumbing down the site. Since that is the case. Why are they still here Chris.

You were here in the beginning with those that started this place. And you know we didn't put up with such Bullshit.

Mister D
12-10-2016, 10:11 AM
Stop, please. Let's be constructive here.

He trolls your "town hall" like he trolls the rest of the forum and you ask him politely to stop. lol @ this thread.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 10:11 AM
Why is tPF time 30 minutes in the future?

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:12 AM
What do you mean by 'contributions made?'

Why do so many vips stop posting on a regular basis?

Why the secrecy?


Contributions mean content in posts. That can be serious or humorous, but generally contributing means advancing discussion, which is, after all, the purpose of a forum.

People come and go.

Secrecy? Yo all can see the trolling rule they came up with. What they decide is always made public.

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:12 AM
He trolls your "town hall" like he trolls the rest of the forum and you ask him politely to stop. lol @ this thread.

No discussion of members, please.

Cigar
12-10-2016, 10:12 AM
No need to cry for your mommy.....take it to the Hole if youre man enough. :laugh:

Stop, please. Let's be constructive here. :tongue:

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:14 AM
Then you Mods already know who the disruptors are and the ones dumbing down the site. Since that is the case. Why are they still here Chris.

You were here in the beginning with those that started this place. And you know we didn't put up with such Bullshit.


No, different people have different ideas of who trolls.

What I find remarkable is many who complain about trolling are just as guilty of it.

MMC
12-10-2016, 10:15 AM
I think they are donating members

They're not all donating members.....and it should be noted. Those that started this place. None are VIP's nor Mods as they all once were.

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:15 AM
I see

I see the ambiguity now. I said contributions, but means content rather than money.

Cigar
12-10-2016, 10:17 AM
They're not all donating members.....and it should be noted. Those that started this place. None are VIP's nor Mods as they all once were.

Dude ... really ...? :loco:

MMC
12-10-2016, 10:19 AM
No, different people have different ideas of who trolls.

What I find remarkable is many who complain about trolling are just as guilty of it.

What I find remarkable is how many threads that mods allow to be trashed. And yet still can't figure out about action, and reaction.


How many times should one be give a pass before they react to the dumbfuckitis?

MMC
12-10-2016, 10:20 AM
Dude ... really ...? :loco:

Yes really....and you weren't an original Member. So STFU.

Chris
12-10-2016, 10:24 AM
Note: If you get TBed it's because you're not contributing to this town hall constructively but in a sense trashing it. You will be free to join the next town hall if this one is successful.

Beevee
12-10-2016, 11:00 AM
What is noticeable to me is subsequent posts to an original post contain comments that cannot be ignored because they use analogies or examples.
When someone responds to those, there is always a claim that the OP is being abused.

Chris
12-10-2016, 11:03 AM
What is noticeable to me is subsequent posts to an original post contain comments that cannot be ignored because they use analogies or examples.
When someone responds to those, there is always a claim that the OP is being abused.

There's no fine line between going off topic and a natural progression of posts that end up off topic. Analogy and examples are natural progression. THough I can understand an OP wanting to stick to the OP. I don't think we mod that very often other than going off topic to talk about other members.

Common
12-10-2016, 11:53 AM
I have no problem with Moderation, lets get that off first.

The only comment I have is that its absolutely ridiculous that for the last several years this forum has been UNWILLING to define trolling, only the most daft would believe that.

This is simple you have had posters for the last few years, basically the same ones over and over.
That when someone posts a legitimate news story from a legitimate site they respond with unrelated pictures and unrelated subject to derail the thread, that does not need Defining, that is outwardly disrupting the forum for their personal entertainment. There have been those that have gotten away with it so long which is absurd in itself that now you have others doing the same thing and for good reason.

This forum told us time over, that people that are trolled by the same group of favored posters, relentlessly should ignore them, should be the bigger person, ignore them etc etc. Theres been so many excuses made for TPFS most prolific trolls that there is no other choice for other posts but to do the same thing when they post. So now you have more than 50% of threads trolled to death. GOOD JOB :) I actually have a blast trolling them to death now myself.

Chris
12-10-2016, 12:02 PM
There are two problems with trolling.

One is to define it. The new definition suffers two problems. On one hand it define trolling in terms of irritation of others. Anyone can claim to be irritated, and thus trolled. But, on the other hand, many forget it needs to be deliberate, and that is left undefined. It's like accusations of lying, lying requires a deliberate attempt to mislead. So if I say {Trump, Clinton} is an idiot I'm going to irritate maybe half the people here, but is that trolling? I don't think so. --This is why we mods look for patterns of behavior.

The other problem with trolling is it's always the other guy. I would argue from my perspective that it's either the case you are the troll or you both are. And it doesn't matter who supposedly started it, that buried in time. This problem I will designate as the Daaaaad he started it problem.

Common
12-10-2016, 12:17 PM
There are two problems with trolling.

One is to define it. The new definition suffers two problems. On one hand it define trolling in terms of irritation of others. Anyone can claim to be irritated, and thus trolled. But, on the other hand, many forget it needs to be deliberate, and that is left undefined. It's like accusations of lying, lying requires a deliberate attempt to mislead. So if I say {Trump, Clinton} is an idiot I'm going to irritate maybe half the people here, but is that trolling? I don't think so. --This is why we mods look for patterns of behavior.

The other problem with trolling is it's always the other guy. I would argue from my perspective that it's either the case you are the troll or you both are. And it doesn't matter who supposedly started it, that buried in time. This problem I will designate as the Daaaaad he started it problem.
Sorry chris this isnt my first forum, other forums have no problem defining trolling.

When someone posts a thread for an example trumps favorability rising since the election and you have individuals Several, posting unrelated insulting gifs and making unrelated comments that is in fact classic trolling, especially if its done day in and day out relentlessly.

By this forum making excuses for those that did it incessantly over years with no discipline you created more of them. Now you have those that wouldnt be inclined to do it doing the same thing.

For more than 2 yrs I was told when I complained to staff, "QUOTE" Define Trolling, Be the better person, be the bigger person, ignore them, etc. Instead of correcting the problem it was made to get much worse. So now Im one of the biggest trolls on the forum I guess in the scheme of things that should be considered a good thing because it showed compliance. Now I am in the saddle and able to say when confronted. DEFINE TROLLING.

This blatant trolling that absolutely didnt need any defining could have been fixed easily long ago and should have been.

The staff and administration are intelligent people and they "SEE" the same individuals posting gif after unrelated gif. They see individuals post insulting one liners to derail threads incessantly and relentlessly and you are going to try and tell me and the rest of the forum. "DEFINE TROLLING" its seems that every other poster can define trolling but those that need to be able too.

Chris
12-10-2016, 12:34 PM
Sorry chris this isnt my first forum, other forums have no problem defining trolling.

When someone posts a thread for an example trumps favorability rising since the election and you have individuals Several, posting unrelated insulting gifs and making unrelated comments that is in fact classic trolling, especially if its done day in and day out relentlessly.

By this forum making excuses for those that did it incessantly over years with no discipline you created more of them. Now you have those that wouldnt be inclined to do it doing the same thing.

For more than 2 yrs I was told when I complained to staff, "QUOTE" Define Trolling, Be the better person, be the bigger person, ignore them, etc. Instead of correcting the problem it was made to get much worse. So now Im one of the biggest trolls on the forum I guess in the scheme of things that should be considered a good thing because it showed compliance. Now I am in the saddle and able to say when confronted. DEFINE TROLLING.

This blatant trolling that absolutely didnt need any defining could have been fixed easily long ago and should have been.

The staff and administration are intelligent people and they "SEE" the same individuals posting gif after unrelated gif. They see individuals post insulting one liners to derail threads incessantly and relentlessly and you are going to try and tell me and the rest of the forum. "DEFINE TROLLING" its seems that every other poster can define trolling but those that need to be able too.



Some who complain the loudest about the trolling you describe engage in the same behavior. There seems to me to be two small groups that do that to each other, and to others, each feeling justified because the other group started it.

Anyway, VIPs have tried to define it and mods are starting to mod it.

resister
12-10-2016, 12:37 PM
No names need be said.I se two types of trolling here, primary trolls(those who constantly troll unprovokedly, and reactionary trolling, responding to the former type after being poked.We all know who the primary trolls are, they singlehandly manage to create 90% of the trolling.I suspect quite a few lurkers never register after seeing how much non sense happens.

If the main offenders were banned I suspect membership would increase as well as content.My 2 cents

Chris
12-10-2016, 12:42 PM
No names need be said.I se two types of trolling here, primary trolls(those who constantly troll unprovokedly, and reactionary trolling, responding to the former type after being poked.We all know who the primary trolls are, they singlehandly manage to create 90% of the trolling.I suspect quite a few lurkers never register after seeing how much non sense happens.

If the main offenders were banned I suspect membership would increase as well as content.My 2 cents



Problem is these two groups each blame each other for starting it, each would claim to be reacting to prime trollers.

Trolling defined in terms of behavior wouldn't pick sides, would care who is prime and who reactionary.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 12:48 PM
I see all kinds of members posting gifs, but only some members get the troll label because people have selective vision. Usually, the trolls all fall outside of members' preferred political persuasion. However, if you asked for a list of trolls, each side would produce a different list. The only members who don't troll are the ones who never name-call, never use foul language (or acronyms for same) against another member or ever post insulting memes. They also don't respond in a condescending, snide manner that is guaranteed to insult others and provoke an in-thread battle of more insults. Bottom line, if you're responding in a manner designed to irritate someone, you are trolling.

Beevee
12-10-2016, 12:57 PM
The problem with your definition is he/she who does not respond is called out as a 'loser' and believed to be such by those who support that poster's point of view.
It is then remembered as a point for future reference.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:02 PM
The problem with your definition is he/she who does not respond is called out as a 'loser' and believed to be such by those who support that poster's point of view.
It is then remembered as a point for future reference.

True. But in whose eyes? Not yours. But a troll's? Who cares what a troll thinks? And if you react, in the same manner, deliberately trolling, you end up in trouble, and the troll probably not. Remember, never wrestle with a pig.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 01:08 PM
A member recognized for contributions made with good faith behavior.

VIPs are responsible for designing the forum. They can, by consensus, decide a rule, like they did with the trolling rule.

Who better to elect VIPs than other VIPs.

Opening VIPs to more is something to consider.

From what I have seen, the nonVIPS contribute far more to discussion on the forum than any of the VIPS do.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:10 PM
From what I have seen, the nonVIPS contribute far more to discussion on the forum than any of the VIPS do.

I'm sure they feel differently.

As I responded to a similar query above, I think opening up VIPs might be something we could look at.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 01:12 PM
No, different people have different ideas of who trolls.

What I find remarkable is many who complain about trolling are just as guilty of it.

The problem with shutting people out for trolling is that it is completely subjective. What one person considers "trolling", another may not. I really fail to understand why some people think they should or can control everything that is said in a thread. We are supposed to be adults here. Sometimes, adult conversations get a little heated. Sometimes, they go off topic. That just real life. If you are an adult, you roll with it. If you can't do that, you should probably go find some kiddie forum somewhere.

Common
12-10-2016, 01:30 PM
Some who complain the loudest about the trolling you describe engage in the same behavior. There seems to me to be two small groups that do that to each other, and to others, each feeling justified because the other group started it.

Anyway, VIPs have tried to define it and mods are starting to mod it.
Well im certainly engaging in the same behavior :)

Chris you are dead wrong about one thing. The one group is the one who ALWAYS has done nothing but troll and they drew others into it who got quite tired of putting up with it.

My posts arent about changing the trolling here, I know better, its about my having a blast returning it.:)

Cletus
12-10-2016, 01:36 PM
I see all kinds of members posting gifs, but only some members get the troll label because people have selective vision. Usually, the trolls all fall outside of members' preferred political persuasion. However, if you asked for a list of trolls, each side would produce a different list. The only members who don't troll are the ones who never name-call, never use foul language (or acronyms for same) against another member or ever post insulting memes. They also don't respond in a condescending, snide manner that is guaranteed to insult others and provoke an in-thread battle of more insults. Bottom line, if you're responding in a manner designed to irritate someone, you are trolling.

I think that is nonsense. A lot of the topics discussed here are things that various members feel strongly about and create an emotional response. U"sing your criteria, there are several posters here who do absolutely nothing but troll. One of them starts a lot of threads specifically for that purpose, yet seldom if ever, is action taken against him.

Moderation on this board is far from even handed. I doubt there are many here who would dispute that. There are posters who are obviously favored and even protected. The good thing about the moderation here is that it doesn't pop up in every thread. The bad thing is that when it does it pop up, it is almost always misapplied and accomplishes little other than to kill discussion. Moist of us are not new at this. I have been participating in these things since back in the days of Prodigy and have seen forums run in just about every way imaginable. The way moderation is handled here is not one of the better ones. But hey, it is your board. Handle it the way you want and if I get too fed up with it, I'll just leave. That is an option everyone has if they don't like what is happening. It is no big deal.

The absolute worst thing done here is that stupid tPF feature. The idea that someone "owns" a thread just because they started it is beyond ridiculous. Once a thread is out there, it is out there and it should be allowed to evolve as it will. Allowing someone who starts a thread shut someone out just because he doesn't like what he has to say is contrary to the very reason forums like this exist. You hear the argument all the time "If you don't like tPF, don't participate in tPF threads". If a thread topic is considered interesting by someone, he should be able to participate, and should be able to do so without walking on eggshells.

Common
12-10-2016, 01:39 PM
I see all kinds of members posting gifs, but only some members get the troll label because people have selective vision. Usually, the trolls all fall outside of members' preferred political persuasion. However, if you asked for a list of trolls, each side would produce a different list. The only members who don't troll are the ones who never name-call, never use foul language (or acronyms for same) against another member or ever post insulting memes. They also don't respond in a condescending, snide manner that is guaranteed to insult others and provoke an in-thread battle of more insults. Bottom line, if you're responding in a manner designed to irritate someone, you are trolling.

Dr Who with all due respect that is pure flummery, you know exactly who posts gifs to troll and detract from threads as well as everyone else around here.

Anyway like I said, im not trying to change anything, I am in full compliance with what the forum wants.
I troll the trolls to death and the decent posters that do not troll I treat them with respect and courtesy no matter what political persuasion they are.

Ethereal
12-10-2016, 01:42 PM
Does spamming "lol" or "good times" count as trolling? It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and tends to annoy other posters. In other words, it seems to be in "bad faith".

Cletus
12-10-2016, 01:42 PM
Dr Who with all due respect that is pure flummery, you know exactly who posts gifs to troll and detract from threads as well as everyone else around here.

Anyway like I said, im not trying to change anything, I am in full compliance with what the forum wants.
I troll the trolls to death and the decent posters that do not troll I treat them with respect and courtesy no matter what political persuasion they are.

Didn't you just get thread banned from a thread YOU started?

How ridiculous is that?

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:46 PM
The problem with shutting people out for trolling is that it is completely subjective. What one person considers "trolling", another may not. I really fail to understand why some people think they should or can control everything that is said in a thread. We are supposed to be adults here. Sometimes, adult conversations get a little heated. Sometimes, they go off topic. That just real life. If you are an adult, you roll with it. If you can't do that, you should probably go find some kiddie forum somewhere.

Deciding what is and is not trolling is subjective. Just as deciding what violates any rule is. But that's why mods work together as a team to reach consensus--and sometimes we don't and take no action.

I think though that you can look at a thread and see who is contributing to the topic and who not. As Beevee says some topics naturally diverge and go off on tangents and that's OK. But I think you can generally see who is contributing and who is distracting and disrupting and discouraging discussion.

An earlier definition of baiting, synonymous with trolling, measured it so: Think someone is just baiting? Approach him or her and try to engage in discussion. If they engage, great, no problem, discussion ensues. If they don't but instead distract more, then you have a baiter.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:47 PM
Well im certainly engaging in the same behavior :)

Chris you are dead wrong about one thing. The one group is the one who ALWAYS has done nothing but troll and they drew others into it who got quite tired of putting up with it.

My posts arent about changing the trolling here, I know better, its about my having a blast returning it.:)


And that group thinks it's the other group.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:49 PM
Does spamming "lol" or "good times" count as trolling? It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and tends to annoy other posters. In other words, it seems to be in "bad faith".

Could be. Try the baiting test. Ask why are you loling? If they have a reason and tell you, you have a discussion on hand. If they just lol again or worse, you know you've caught a baiter.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:50 PM
Didn't you just get thread banned from a thread YOU started?

How ridiculous is that?

Let's not get into discussing members or particular moderation actions, please.

Ethereal
12-10-2016, 01:52 PM
There is no question in my mind that trolling is a serious problem on this forum. The fact that several members were banned from other forums for behaving exactly as they do here is all the proof you need. Then there is the matter of meta-posting, which is basically a form of trolling where, instead of actually addressing the substance of a post, a person merely comments on the post in a dismissive or smug way. For example, responding to a post with "lol" or something along those lines. That should be stopped. It adds absolutely nothing to a discussion, is obnoxious, and wastes space. Mature people come here for DISCUSSION, not to exchange juvenile barbs and quips. If someone says something you don't like, then either rebut it or just STFU. Enough with all this meta-posting. It's arguably the biggest problem this forum has right now.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 01:54 PM
I think that is nonsense. A lot of the topics discussed here are things that various members feel strongly about and create an emotional response. U"sing your criteria, there are several posters here who do absolutely nothing but troll. One of them starts a lot of threads specifically for that purpose, yet seldom if ever, is action taken against him.

Moderation on this board is far from even handed. I doubt there are many here who would dispute that. There are posters who are obviously favored and even protected. The good thing about the moderation here is that it doesn't pop up in every thread. The bad thing is that when it does it pop up, it is almost always misapplied and accomplishes little other than to kill discussion. Moist of us are not new at this. I have been participating in these things since back in the days of Prodigy and have seen forums run in just about every way imaginable. The way moderation is handled here is not one of the better ones. But hey, it is your board. Handle it the way you want and if I get too fed up with it, I'll just leave. That is an option everyone has if they don't like what is happening. It is no big deal.

The absolute worst thing done here is that stupid tPF feature. The idea that someone "owns" a thread just because they started it is beyond ridiculous. Once a thread is out there, it is out there and it should be allowed to evolve as it will. Allowing someone who starts a thread shut someone out just because he doesn't like what he has to say is contrary to the very reason forums like this exist. You hear the argument all the time "If you don't like tPF, don't participate in tPF threads". If a thread topic is considered interesting by someone, he should be able to participate, and should be able to do so without walking on eggshells.
Feeling strongly about a topic and trolling are not synonymous. Defending your opinion or disagreeing with another's doesn't have to be a mud slinging contest and if it does, the topic is lost and all you and anyone reading the thread is left with is the fight. Worse yet, it gets carried from one thread to another.

Common
12-10-2016, 01:55 PM
And that group thinks it's the other group.
Who cares what they think the truth is the truth period , ive been here since Feb 2013 and the same ones that where here then as now were trolling then.

Couple of years ago you had a migration OFF this forum for this same topic which is relentless trolling
Chris, the staff the vips cant use flummery on those that have been here and know the truth.

Its embarassing really for intelligent adults to keep making the same excuse for the same people over and over not for weeks BUT YEARS. Now im done this townhall is like all other conversations nothing changes everything stays the same and My new goal is to be the most prolific troll this forum has ever seen within the rules and of course DEFINING TROLLING only with those that have trolled this forum relentlessly others will be treated with respect and courteousness.

Beevee
12-10-2016, 01:56 PM
Point taken with the 'lol'
I shall try to avoid that in future.

Chris
12-10-2016, 01:58 PM
Who cares what they think the truth is the truth period , ive been here since Feb 2013 and the same ones that where here then as now were trolling then.

Couple of years ago you had a migration OFF this forum for this same topic which is relentless trolling
Chris, the staff the vips cant use flummery on those that have been here and know the truth.

Its embarassing really for intelligent adults to keep making the same excuse for the same people over and over not for weeks BUT YEARS. Now im done this townhall is like all other conversations nothing changes everything stays the same and My new goal is to be the most prolific troll this forum has ever seen within the rules and of course DEFINING TROLLING only with those that have trolled this forum relentlessly others will be treated with respect and courteousness.


And they have been trolled by the same people all this time.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 01:58 PM
Didn't you just get thread banned from a thread YOU started?

How ridiculous is that?

We have rules that everyone here agrees to when they sign up. Those rules will be enforced.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 01:59 PM
Let's not get into discussing members or particular moderation actions, please.

Okay, but sometimes, they need to be questioned.

That may be another thing to take under consideration.

Common
12-10-2016, 02:11 PM
And they have been trolled by the same people all this time.

That is a bold faced lie and what makes it even more a boldfaced lie is that you said it and I find that surpising unless your under pressure to cover the truth.

Anyway im done with this conversation it matters not. I will troll to death those that are trolls and treat others with courteousness and respect.

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:15 PM
That is a bold faced lie and what makes it even more a boldfaced lie is that you said it and I find that surpising unless your under pressure to cover the truth.

Anyway im done with this conversation it matters not. I will troll to death those that are trolls and treat others with courteousness and respect.

What's a lie? There are basically groups, not necessarily conspiratorial, who hound and fight and troll each other. You're admitting you do it deliberately.

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:15 PM
Okay, but sometimes, they need to be questioned.

That may be another thing to take under consideration.

Report and leave to the mod team. That's the proper way.

Common
12-10-2016, 02:17 PM
Report and leave to the mod team. That's the proper way.
That has never worked chris hasnt worked since ive been here. You report trolls and the answer is DEFINE TROLLING. Reporting works selectively

Cletus
12-10-2016, 02:22 PM
Report and leave to the mod team. That's the proper way.

It is not the "proper way". It may be the "preferred way" for some. What you are doing is saying the mods should decide if their own actions were out of line. Nobody can be self monitoring and be objective at the same time. I am sure you mods like it that way because no one can put when you make a bad call.

When was the last time you guys reversed one of your own decisions? I know you can't honestly tell me there have not been spectacularly bad moderation decisions made on the board.

Common
12-10-2016, 02:23 PM
Didn't you just get thread banned from a thread YOU started?

How ridiculous is that?
Plus it was intentional, I am guilty of every complaint by Ethereal and you and its INTENTIONAL you both even have the reason right, to annoy certain posters. I never deny what I do and I wont try and lie about it either.

You were right about much in your post. Since ive been here moderation has been selective in the past, its better now because others are involved. After getting your conversations and threads and posts trolled insidiously over a long period of time, reporting does absolutely nothing. Moderations more or less tell you to suck it up. Theres not much left but to start breaking balls just as relentlessly as yours have been.

If my actions annoy enough people <within the rules> to bring attention then I did good.
We have posters here that one line insult every single thread and thats all theyve done since day one.
bah whats the point everyone knows exactly what it is here

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:25 PM
That has never worked chris hasnt worked since ive been here. You report trolls and the answer is DEFINE TROLLING. Reporting works selectively

Since we got the trolling definition from VIPs we have acted several times on trolling. It takes time to get the team working together on it, but it's ramping up.

Reported violations will always be subject to judgment calls of moderators. We don't claim perfection. Why we tend, I think, to be cautious.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 02:26 PM
Plus it was intentional, I am guilty of every complaint by Ethereal and you and its INTENTIONAL you both even have the reason right, to annoy certain posters.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't believe I have ever complained about one of your posts.

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:28 PM
It is not the "proper way". It may be the "preferred way" for some. What you are doing is saying the mods should decide if their own actions were out of line. Nobody can be self monitoring and be objective at the same time. I am sure you mods like it that way because no one can put when you make a bad call.

When was the last time you guys reversed one of your own decisions? I know you can't honestly tell me there have not been spectacularly bad moderation decisions made on the board.


Mods self-police and believe me we do. That's why the idea of team is important. No one person decides anything. By arguing and reaching consensus we achieve some semblance of objectivity. And we have you all, the members, to keep us in line.

We do reverse actions.


What pray tell is the alternative, a forum with members in Hobbesian fashion doing nothing but shouting at each other?

Common
12-10-2016, 02:29 PM
Since we got the trolling definition from VIPs we have acted several times on trolling. It takes time to get the team working together on it, but it's ramping up.

Reported violations will always be subject to judgment calls of moderators. We don't claim perfection. Why we tend, I think, to be cautious.


Chis you had the 4 yrs I was here to ramp it up and here we are 4 yrs later talking ABOUT THE SAME DAMN THING, whats wrong with that picture.

Ill tell you one thing, when I had 800 people reporting to me, if there was something to be discussed I called in 7 lts and a couple of appropriate sgts and hashed it out. THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH TOO MUCH TO SAY ON THIS FORUM.

The admin and the mods should make and enforce and change the rules as necessary. This vip thing is absurd, you have vips that come here once a year. If they happen to be here the one day you are voting on policy they make policy ??? too many people in the pot here.

Chris all you mods knows this has been a problem FOR YEARS HERE... For gods sake fix it. STop leaving it to other forum members to do it their own way. There is a huge lack of supversion and discipline here. The members here did not cause this problem no matter how you try to make it so.

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:32 PM
Chis you had the 4 yrs I was here to ramp it up and here we are 4 yrs later talking ABOUT THE SAME DAMN THING, whats wrong with that picture.

Ill tell you one thing, when I had 800 people reporting to me, if there was something to be discussed I called in 7 lts and a couple of appropriate sgts and hashed it out. THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH TOO MUCH TO SAY ON THIS FORUM.

The admin and the mods should make and enforce and change the rules as necessary. This vip thing is absurd, you have vips that come here once a year. If they happen to be here the one day you are voting on policy they make policy ??? too many people in the pot here.

Chris all you mods knows this has been a problem FOR YEARS HERE... For gods sake fix it. STop leaving it to other forum members to do it their own way. There is a huge lack of supversion and discipline here. The members here did not cause this problem no matter how you try to make it so.



I think all this has been addressed and we're now going in circles. Let others voice opinions.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 02:44 PM
Mods self-police and believe me we do. That's why the idea of team is important. No one person decides anything. By arguing and reaching consensus we achieve some semblance of objectivity. And we have you all, the members, to keep us in line.

How can they keep you in line if they are not allowed contest what you do or say in your secret little star chamber? It is not the mods who make this forum work. It is the every day posters.


We do reverse actions.

Really? When? I can remember a single example of someone being unbanned after being thread banned and that was as I recall, because you banned the wrong person. You didn't reverse the decision to ban someone, you just realized you hit the wrong target... ONE time.


What pray tell is the alternative, a forum with members in Hobbesian fashion doing nothing but shouting at each other?

I would suggest something as simple as a subforum in which contested rulings could be viewed by the general membership with comments and observations permitted.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 02:50 PM
Here is another question and a comment.

First the comment... I think this "Town Hall" think is good, even if it yields no positive changes. Thanks for making it happen.

Now the question... Why is it that when it comes to issues of moderation, you are the one who ends up taking all the heat? Are the other mods too disinterested to participate in discussions like this? Are they afraid to read what people actually think of them? I think it is great that you are doing this, but you shouldn't be the only one center stage.

Chris
12-10-2016, 02:58 PM
How can they keep you in line if they are not allowed contest what you do or say in your secret little star chamber? It is not the mods who make this forum work. It is the every day posters.



Really? When? I can remember a single example of someone being unbanned after being thread banned and that was as I recall, because you banned the wrong person. You didn't reverse the decision to ban someone, you just realized you hit the wrong target... ONE time.



I would suggest something as simple as a subforum in which contested rulings could be viewed by the general membership with comments and observations permitted.


Mods are allowed to contest each other's behavior.

Mods are members.

Only about 10% of what we do is made public. We're working on communicating more.

We'll consider your suggestion.

Chris
12-10-2016, 03:02 PM
Here is another question and a comment.

First the comment... I think this "Town Hall" think is good, even if it yields no positive changes. Thanks for making it happen.

Now the question... Why is it that when it comes to issues of moderation, you are the one who ends up taking all the heat? Are the other mods too disinterested to participate in discussions like this? Are they afraid to read what people actually think of them? I think it is great that you are doing this, but you shouldn't be the only one center stage.


Good will come of it. I was concerned it would blow up. But it's been good and while I may argue certain points, all points are read by mods and admin and will be seriously considered. The feedback is good for us and in turn for you all.

Mods are voluntary and have personal lives to live and I can't go into all that.

What heat?

Adelaide
12-10-2016, 03:14 PM
Here is another question and a comment.

First the comment... I think this "Town Hall" think is good, even if it yields no positive changes. Thanks for making it happen.

Now the question... Why is it that when it comes to issues of moderation, you are the one who ends up taking all the heat? Are the other mods too disinterested to participate in discussions like this? Are they afraid to read what people actually think of them? I think it is great that you are doing this, but you shouldn't be the only one center stage.

If I agree with what Chris is posting, or another mod, I see no reason to repeat it.

If I disagree with Chris or another moderator, I am not going to surprise them in public if it hasn't been discussed privately first. When I have issues with someone for how they behave or what they post, I prefer to address it in private if possible. So far, Chris is doing a good job of representing the moderation team - I am busy with real life crap.

I might agree with what some members are saying and would thank it or show support somehow, but underneath the hypotheticals I know that certain members have problems with other members and I can't show favoritism or take a side.

If I have something to add, I will. If I see a question unanswered then I have no problem answering it if it has not already been answered.

One problem I think exists is almost a personality disorder in how members want to see moderation act. Some would like very little moderation, some want massive amounts. Some want selective moderation. Some try to use moderation as part of their debate tactic. In the past, members (including myself) have appreciated that this forum does not over-moderate. With the new "guidelines" that have been posted about moderation, it seems we are moving towards more moderation which I am not convinced is necessarily a good thing. Smarter moderation, sure - excessive moderation, then no. It's fairly easy to say "deal with the trolls" but hard in practice, especially when some long-time members are acting as badly as the people they consider trolls.

At any rate, I worry about over-moderation or excessive moderation. One of my biggest issues personally is with the damn vulgarity rule which seems to sometimes verge on censorship. But that has little to do with the trolling issue.

gamewell45
12-10-2016, 03:16 PM
This will be an open meeting during which members can ask questions and state complaints, and moderators will try to respond. Feel free to ask any questions and make any complaints. However, the town hall will be strictly moderated. We can talk about trolls and trolling but you can't talk about members. We can talk about moderation in general but not any specific moderation action.


Clarification: The town hall is this thread.
Chris: I think one of the really biggest issues (in my opinion) is the constant bickering that goes on in here to the point where it erupts into name-calling and personal insults between the posters. I can understand some sarcasm and occasional snide remarks, but I personally think when things really get out of control and people get vicious with each other it ruins the thread and speaking for myself I have no desire to participate when that is the mindset.

I've seen good forums ruined when all you mostly read is the constant fighting and bickering as opposed to discussing the subject matter at hand. I think for many it's a complete turn-off.

It's one thing to be passionate about your viewpoints, but I'd like to see everyone step up to the plate and at least make an effort to be more civil with one another. I honestly think the discussion/debate might actually be a bit more enjoyable.

Just my two cents.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 03:17 PM
If I agree with what Chris is posting, or another mod, I see no reason to repeat it.

If I disagree with Chris or another moderator, I am not going to surprise them in public if it hasn't been discussed privately first. When I have issues with someone for how they behave or what they post, I prefer to address it in private if possible. So far, Chris is doing a good job of representing the moderation team - I am busy with real life crap.

I might agree with what some members are saying and would thank it or show support somehow, but underneath the hypotheticals I know that certain members have problems with other members and I can't show favoritism or take a side.

If I have something to add, I will. If I see a question unanswered then I have no problem answering it if it has not already been answered.

One problem I think exists is almost a personality disorder in how members want to see moderation act. Some would like very little moderation, some want massive amounts. Some want selective moderation. Some try to use moderation as part of their debate tactic. In the past, members (including myself) have appreciated that this forum does not over-moderate. With the new "guidelines" that have been posted about moderation, it seems we are moving towards more moderation which I am not convinced is necessarily a good thing. Smarter moderation, sure - excessive moderation, then no. It's fairly easy to say "deal with the trolls" but hard in practice, especially when some long-time members are acting as badly as the people they consider trolls.

At any rate, I worry about over-moderation or excessive moderation. One of my biggest issues personally is with the damn vulgarity rule which seems to sometimes verge on censorship. But that has little to do with the trolling issue.

I haven't seen the vulgarity rule used excessively, but then I don't see everything.

Adelaide
12-10-2016, 03:24 PM
I haven't seen the vulgarity rule used excessively, but then I don't see everything.
I don't believe it's something many people give thought to or would notice. Defining what is considered vulgar is pretty subjective.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 03:26 PM
I don't believe it's something many people give thought to or would notice. Defining what is considered vulgar is pretty subjective.
Valid point.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 03:34 PM
Here is another question and a comment.

First the comment... I think this "Town Hall" think is good, even if it yields no positive changes. Thanks for making it happen.

Now the question... Why is it that when it comes to issues of moderation, you are the one who ends up taking all the heat? Are the other mods too disinterested to participate in discussions like this? Are they afraid to read what people actually think of them? I think it is great that you are doing this, but you shouldn't be the only one center stage.
Did I not comment in this thread?

Chris
12-10-2016, 03:34 PM
If I agree with what Chris is posting, or another mod, I see no reason to repeat it.

If I disagree with Chris or another moderator, I am not going to surprise them in public if it hasn't been discussed privately first. When I have issues with someone for how they behave or what they post, I prefer to address it in private if possible. So far, Chris is doing a good job of representing the moderation team - I am busy with real life crap.

I might agree with what some members are saying and would thank it or show support somehow, but underneath the hypotheticals I know that certain members have problems with other members and I can't show favoritism or take a side.

If I have something to add, I will. If I see a question unanswered then I have no problem answering it if it has not already been answered.

One problem I think exists is almost a personality disorder in how members want to see moderation act. Some would like very little moderation, some want massive amounts. Some want selective moderation. Some try to use moderation as part of their debate tactic. In the past, members (including myself) have appreciated that this forum does not over-moderate. With the new "guidelines" that have been posted about moderation, it seems we are moving towards more moderation which I am not convinced is necessarily a good thing. Smarter moderation, sure - excessive moderation, then no. It's fairly easy to say "deal with the trolls" but hard in practice, especially when some long-time members are acting as badly as the people they consider trolls.

At any rate, I worry about over-moderation or excessive moderation. One of my biggest issues personally is with the damn vulgarity rule which seems to sometimes verge on censorship. But that has little to do with the trolling issue.


Agree. --And believe me, Ade is one to speak up when she sees something wrong.


One comment on the how members see moderation I'd like to add is why some of you can't take more personal responsibility? It gets irritating day after day repeating the same warnings, TBs, infractions for the same offenses, name calling, insulting, baiting. Why is that?

Chris
12-10-2016, 03:36 PM
Chris: I think one of the really biggest issues (in my opinion) is the constant bickering that goes on in here to the point where it erupts into name-calling and personal insults between the posters. I can understand some sarcasm and occasional snide remarks, but I personally think when things really get out of control and people get vicious with each other it ruins the thread and speaking for myself I have no desire to participate when that is the mindset.

I've seen good forums ruined when all you mostly read is the constant fighting and bickering as opposed to discussing the subject matter at hand. I think for many it's a complete turn-off.

It's one thing to be passionate about your viewpoints, but I'd like to see everyone step up to the plate and at least make an effort to be more civil with one another. I honestly think the discussion/debate might actually be a bit more enjoyable.

Just my two cents.


That is probably the biggest problem I see, is bickering breaking up a discussion, or a small group trolling a topic they don't want to discuss or think is beneath them.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 03:53 PM
Did I not comment in this thread?

I guess you're a figment of my imagination.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:04 PM
Did I not comment in this thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLIerfXuZ4

Cletus
12-10-2016, 04:05 PM
One comment on the how members see moderation I'd like to add is why some of you can't take more personal responsibility? It gets irritating day after day repeating the same warnings, TBs, infractions for the same offenses, name calling, insulting, baiting. Why is that?

That is easy. For some, that is how they interact with everybody, including face to face. For some, the anonymity of forum provides them an opportunity to say things they wouldn't dare say otherwise.

Me, I am an old paratrooper. I think like a paratrooper, I act like a paratrooper, I talk like a paratrooper. I don't care if it is someone on the forum or the Pope. If I see someone with his head stuck up his ass, I see no reason not to tell him he has his head up his ass. In fact, most of the time, I think I am doing him a favor by telling him because he is probably too stuck on stupid to realize it himself. Life is too short to waste in in phony politeness and political correctness. When people address me, I WANT them to say what they think, not waste my tie by dropping little hints or using innuendo. Just come right out and say it. I may not like it, but at least I will respect it.

Most of the warnings given here shouldn't be. They might be appropriate when dealing with kindergarten age children, but we are supposed to be adults here.

I think sometimes, you mods forget that.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 04:06 PM
Did I not comment in this thread?

Yeah, you made your token appearance. You can feel proud while Chris does all the heavy lifting.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 04:10 PM
We have three types of posters here.

1. People who want serious discussion.
2. People who what unmoderated, or lightly moderated discussion.
3. Trolls. People who post solely to attack or disrupt.

In a perfect word group number 3 would be permanently banned. But I understand the issues with that.

A major problem is the need to treat everyone equal. When a clear troll is protected and a good member gets punished for saying fact- that is simply unacceptable. And I will continue to point it out when it happens.
Perhaps we should remove tPF and return to the serious side option. For it to work, we would need to change the homepage to have two links. One to the lighter side. One to the serious side. The trolls and people who don't care about standards can post on the lighter side.



The serious side can be moderated more tightly.

But they must be separate; the What's New feature has to be independent between the two.

That would accommodate everyone.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:15 PM
The problem with shutting people out for trolling is that it is completely subjective. What one person considers "trolling", another may not. I really fail to understand why some people think they should or can control everything that is said in a thread. We are supposed to be adults here. Sometimes, adult conversations get a little heated. Sometimes, they go off topic. That just real life. If you are an adult, you roll with it. If you can't do that, you should probably go find some kiddie forum somewhere.

I had a private conversation with a mod this morning. I listed two blatant trolls. He/she viewed them as outstanding citizens.

I would submit that one man's troll is another man's freedom fighter.

It's best therefore to make sure that there is political representation for both sides among the mods and vips to make sure that one side doesn't unfairly hunt down and execute the other side's freedom fighters.

Expecting consistent objectivity is folly. Ideological balance among the referees solves all problems.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 04:18 PM
The mod team and VIP team has always sought members with diverse political leanings.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:18 PM
We have three types of posters here.

1. People who want serious discussion.
2. People who what unmoderated, or lightly moderated discussion.
3. Trolls. People who post solely to attack or disrupt.

In a perfect word group number 3 would be permanently banned. But I understand the issues with that.

A major problem is the need to treat everyone equal. When a clear troll is protected and a good member gets punished for saying fact- that is simply unacceptable. And I will continue to point it out when it happens.
Perhaps we should remove tPF and return to the serious side option. For it to work, we would need to change the homepage to have two links. One to the lighter side. One to the serious side. The trolls and people who don't care about standards can post on the lighter side.



The serious side can be moderated more tightly.

But they must be separate; the What's New feature has to be independent between the two.

That would accommodate everyone.



I agree, a more heavily moderated serious side along with a lightly moderated rest of the forum would satisfy most needs.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:23 PM
I had a private conversation with a mod this morning. I listed two blatant trolls. He/she viewed them as outstanding citizens.

I would submit that one man's troll is another man's freedom fighter.

It's best therefore to make sure that there is political representation for both sides among the mods and vips to make sure that one side doesn't unfairly hunt down and execute the other side's freedom fighters.

Expecting consistent objectivity is folly. Ideological balance among the referees solves all problems.


I've been saying that since the beginning of the thread. We mods once made up a list of who we thought were trolls: We matched perhaps 20%. Everyone has a different idea of who the trolls are.

Right now we have 3 liberals and 1 anarchist, so you're saying we should bring on some conservative mods.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:23 PM
Dr Who with all due respect that is pure flummery, you know exactly who posts gifs to troll and detract from threads as well as everyone else around here.

Anyway like I said, im not trying to change anything, I am in full compliance with what the forum wants.
I troll the trolls to death and the decent posters that do not troll I treat them with respect and courtesy no matter what political persuasion they are.

What is wrong with gifs? There is no rule against them. The forum, in fact, gives you bonus points for every one you upload.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:26 PM
What is wrong with gifs? There is no rule against them. The forum, in fact, gives you bonus points for every one you upload.

Nothing is wrong with gifs. Like anything else, it's all in how you use them.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:27 PM
I've been saying that since the beginning of the thread. We mods once made up a list of who we thought were trolls: We matched perhaps 20%. Everyone has a different idea of who the trolls are.

Right now we have 3 liberals and 1 anarchist, so you're saying we should bring on some conservative mods.
You could drop a bomb on some mods and they would say, "stop it."

Other mods would ban immediately based on rule #9.

Fix that.

The "liberal" mods aren't party people. We need a Democrat, frankly to balance with you.

resister
12-10-2016, 04:31 PM
We have three types of posters here.

1. People who want serious discussion.
2. People who what unmoderated, or lightly moderated discussion.
3. Trolls. People who post solely to attack or disrupt.

In a perfect word group number 3 would be permanently banned. But I understand the issues with that.

A major problem is the need to treat everyone equal. When a clear troll is protected and a good member gets punished for saying fact- that is simply unacceptable. And I will continue to point it out when it happens.
Perhaps we should remove tPF and return to the serious side option. For it to work, we would need to change the homepage to have two links. One to the lighter side. One to the serious side. The trolls and people who don't care about standards can post on the lighter side.



The serious side can be moderated more tightly.

But they must be separate; the What's New feature has to be independent between the two.

That would accommodate everyone.
Perhaps banishment from the serious forum wiyh a three strikes rule?

resister
12-10-2016, 04:34 PM
I don't know if any have said it yet, but I understand mods are volunteers.I appreciate yalls efforts.Thanks

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 04:35 PM
That is easy. For some, that is how they interact with everybody, including face to face. For some, the anonymity of forum provides them an opportunity to say things they wouldn't dare say otherwise.

Me, I am an old paratrooper. I think like a paratrooper, I act like a paratrooper, I talk like a paratrooper. I don't care if it is someone on the forum or the Pope. If I see someone with his head stuck up his ass, I see no reason not to tell him he has his head up his ass. In fact, most of the time, I think I am doing him a favor by telling him because he is probably too stuck on stupid to realize it himself. Life is too short to waste in in phony politeness and political correctness. When people address me, I WANT them to say what they think, not waste my tie by dropping little hints or using innuendo. Just come right out and say it. I may not like it, but at least I will respect it.

Most of the warnings given here shouldn't be. They might be appropriate when dealing with kindergarten age children, but we are supposed to be adults here.

I think sometimes, you mods forget that.
Yours is a minority opinion. We have far more members who believe that we should moderate even more strictly than we do. In the end, while we have tried both, it really comes down to the behavior of individuals. Sometimes members are more fractious than other times and it gets out of hand causing an increase in reports and thus moderation. I would like to think that we are all adults and can behave like adults, but apparently within the anonymity of an internet forum, some feel free to revert to less mature methods of exchanging views, which left unchecked leads to nothing but juvenile cat-calling and precious little discussion.

Docthehun
12-10-2016, 04:37 PM
Mostly I try and treat everyone here with respect and refrain from name calling, although a reference to "Biff" or the like, isn't usually a compliment per se. There are a few posters I tend to ignore, but have never put anyone on ignore and I don't recall complaining in any manner shape or form.

The moderators suit me just fine. It's not my forum and if I stop enjoying it, I'll just leave. Currently, I like it here, but if you choose to shuck me, I'll be fine with that as well.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:39 PM
You could drop a bomb on some mods and they would say, "stop it."

Other mods would ban immediately based on rule #9.

Fix that.

The "liberal" mods aren't party people. We need a Democrat, frankly to balance with you.


Stop trolling with that bit about party and me.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:41 PM
We have three types of posters here.

1. People who want serious discussion.
2. People who what unmoderated, or lightly moderated discussion.
3. Trolls. People who post solely to attack or disrupt.

In a perfect word group number 3 would be permanently banned. But I understand the issues with that.

A major problem is the need to treat everyone equal. When a clear troll is protected and a good member gets punished for saying fact- that is simply unacceptable. And I will continue to point it out when it happens.
Perhaps we should remove tPF and return to the serious side option. For it to work, we would need to change the homepage to have two links. One to the lighter side. One to the serious side. The trolls and people who don't care about standards can post on the lighter side.



The serious side can be moderated more tightly.

But they must be separate; the What's New feature has to be independent between the two.

That would accommodate everyone.

Maybe we should have nothing but tPF threads and lose moderation altogether. Let the op decide everytime.

What do my anarchist and libertarian friends think about that? Isn't it more consistent with their beliefs?

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:42 PM
However, if you asked for a list of trolls, each side would produce a different list.
No offense, but that's just the problem. This claim keeps being made, but the lists are never offered to prove the assertion is correct and when the lists are attempted, they are almost always shot down.

Maybe we need to start making our lists and showing them. Chris says among the moderators y'all agreed on 20% of the trolls. Let's start there.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 04:43 PM
You could drop a bomb on some mods and they would say, "stop it."

Other mods would ban immediately based on rule #9.

Fix that.

The "liberal" mods aren't party people. We need a Democrat, frankly to balance with you.
TBH, while we look for diverse political leanings, we avoid political partisanship. It would create undue complications in the mod room.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 04:43 PM
We certainly have members who are incapable of posting on a serious side.

That is the whole point of this thread.


Perhaps banishment from the serious forum wiyh a three strikes rule?

Docthehun
12-10-2016, 04:44 PM
Doc - Count me in! Double points if I make both lists?

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 04:44 PM
No offense, but that's just the problem. This claim keeps being made, but the lists are never offered to prove the assertion is correct and when the lists are attempted, they are almost always shot down.

Maybe we need to start making our lists and showing them. @Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) says among the moderators y'all agreed on 20% of the trolls. Let's start there.
I believe that said members have been banned.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:45 PM
I believe that said members have been banned.

Have they? Who were they?

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:46 PM
No offense, but that's just the problem. This claim keeps being made, but the lists are never offered to prove the assertion is correct and when the lists are attempted, they are almost always shot down.

Maybe we need to start making our lists and showing them. Chris says among the moderators y'all agreed on 20% of the trolls. Let's start there.

That was just an approximation of how much each of us overlapped with another, the group as a whole much less, and thus there was no consensus to be had. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 04:47 PM
Maybe we should have nothing but tPF threads and lose moderation altogether. Let the op decide everytime.

What do my anarchist and libertarian friends think about that? Isn't it more consistent with their beliefs?
A report from the actual target is typically viewed closer than a report from a third party.

Splitting between the light side and the serious side accommodates everyone.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:47 PM
That was just an approximation of how much each of us overlapped with another, the group as a whole much less, and thus there was no consensus to be had. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

So you didn't agree on any trolls?

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:48 PM
TBH, while we look for diverse political leanings, we avoid political partisanship. It would create undue complications in the mod room.


We tend to avoid discussing politics altogether.

resister
12-10-2016, 04:49 PM
What reasons does one get banned for and how do you assure they do not reregister?

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:50 PM
Maybe we should have nothing but tPF threads and lose moderation altogether. Let the op decide everytime.

What do my anarchist and libertarian friends think about that? Isn't it more consistent with their beliefs?

No, not at all.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:50 PM
Stop trolling with that bit about party and me.

You asked for our input. Try to stay objective.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:52 PM
No, not at all.

So self government, a world without borders and governmental intervention would work for billions of people but would be unworkable for a tiny forum with maybe 50 active members?

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:52 PM
What reasons does one get banned for and how do you assure they do not reregister?

For repeatedly violating rules despite many warnings, TBs, infractions, etc.

We have our ways of detecting.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:54 PM
So self government, a world without borders would work for billions of people but would be unworkable for a tiny forum with maybe 50 active members?

This is self-government. That's what we're doing here. Try to participate.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 04:54 PM
Have they? Who were they?

I can't name names, but check out the list of banned members under announcements.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:54 PM
You asked for our input. Try to stay objective.

Not about my politics or lack thereof. Last chance. Stick to the topic.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:56 PM
I can't name names, but check out the list of banned members under announcements.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to get you to name names here. I'll say I've liked the look of the perma-banned members list though.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 04:56 PM
Not about my politics or lack thereof. Last chance. Stick to the topic.

My first post highlighted this problem.

A lighter side and a serious side that are separate can solve it.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:57 PM
What reasons does one get banned for and how do you assure they do not reregister?

Generally it's a history of warnings, thread bans, and infractions, all of which are tracked. Infractions in particular, you can see your list of infractions on your profile and they drop off after a certain amount of time. It'll tell you when it expires.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 04:58 PM
You asked for our input. Try to stay objective.

It's impossible to stay objective when you're targeting personal aspects of a person and questioning those personal aspects.

Chris
12-10-2016, 04:58 PM
My first post highlighted this problem.

A lighter side and a serious side that are separate can solve it.


I'll continue to push for it.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 04:59 PM
This is self-government. That's what we're doing here. Try to participate.
It really isn't. Few of us have had input into who is in charge.

Chris
12-10-2016, 05:00 PM
It really isn't. Few of us have had input into who is in charge.

This is your opportunity. Don't blow it.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 05:00 PM
So you didn't agree on any trolls?

Not at the time that we created the list. Later we agreed that some certain members were discipline problems and have since been banned.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 05:00 PM
Not at the time that we created the list. Later we agreed that some certain members were discipline problems and have since been banned.

Ah, okay. Gotcha. Just trying to get on the same page here.

Bethere
12-10-2016, 05:01 PM
This is your opportunity. Don't blow it.
Cool. When does the voting start?

Mister D
12-10-2016, 05:03 PM
Not about my politics or lack thereof. Last chance. Stick to the topic.
He has been playing a game with you the entire time. None of his comments were made in good faith. I really don't understand your affection for these people.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 05:04 PM
He has been playing a game with you the entire time. None of his comments were made in good faith. I really don't understand your affection for these people.

Clearly.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 05:06 PM
Sorry, I wasn't trying to get you to name names here. I'll say I've liked the look of the perma-banned members list though.

We are trying to be as transparent as possible, including maintaining an infracted member listing and banned member listing because some of our actions would not otherwise be apparent to the membership.

Green Arrow
12-10-2016, 05:07 PM
We are trying to be as transparent as possible, including maintaining an infracted member listing and banned member listing because some of our actions would not otherwise be apparent to the membership.

Those two things have been great moves, too.

Mister D
12-10-2016, 05:08 PM
Clearly.

The banned list above gives one a pretty good idea of what the problem is here.

Chris
12-10-2016, 05:13 PM
He has been playing a game with you the entire time. None of his comments were made in good faith. I really don't understand your affection for these people.

https://i.snag.gy/NvP6jg.jpg

Mister D
12-10-2016, 05:19 PM
Aside from MMC of course. His problem is that he just doesn't know when to STFU.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 05:37 PM
Yours is a minority opinion. We have far more members who believe that we should moderate even more strictly than we do.

I don't believe that.

I certainly don't remember a poll asking members whether moderation should be more heavy handed. You have probably heard from more whining about the relative lack of moderation, but I seriously doubt they represent the majority. They are probably the same ones who depend on tPF threads so they can think they have a little control... the same ones who run to the mods and say "He was mean to me..."

They may be more vocal but I doubt they represent the majority. If they do, you may as well shut this puppy down right now because it is doomed.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 05:40 PM
I don't believe that.

I certainly don't remember a poll asking members whether moderation should be more heavy handed. You have probably heard from more whining about the relative lack of moderation, but I seriously doubt they represent the majority. They are probably the same ones who depend on tPF threads so they can think they have a little control... the same ones who run to the mods and say "He was mean to me..."

They may be more vocal but I doubt they represent the majority. If they do, you may as well shut this puppy down right now because it is doomed.


Most of them left or rarely post because of the trolling.

resister
12-10-2016, 05:44 PM
I find it hard to understand why it is so hard to ID the most egregious career trolls they are pretty evident.They rarely post threads that not are pointedly inflammatory,almost allways insulting, constantly derail threads ,insult for no other reason than that they are of opposite ideaology,Not naming names, but there are 3 well known ones that we all know the names of.Even there(respectable)party adherents tend to shun them

Cletus
12-10-2016, 05:46 PM
Most of them left or rarely post because of the trolling.

Good... and the weak shall fall by the wayside. I am sure you are familiar with that expression. You have probably used it more than once or twice. If they couldn't handle it, they were just dead weight and the forum is better off without them. The planet would probably be, as well.

Dr. Who
12-10-2016, 05:47 PM
I don't believe that.

I certainly don't remember a poll asking members whether moderation should be more heavy handed. You have probably heard from more whining about the relative lack of moderation, but I seriously doubt they represent the majority. They are probably the same ones who depend on tPF threads so they can think they have a little control... the same ones who run to the mods and say "He was mean to me..."

They may be more vocal but I doubt they represent the majority. If they do, you may as well shut this puppy down right now because it is doomed.
There was no poll, just many PMs.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 05:48 PM
Good... and the weak shall fall by the wayside. I am sure you are familiar with that expression. You have probably used it more than once or twice. If they couldn't handle it, they were just dead weight and the forum is better off without them. The planet would probably be, as well.
Or they have better things to do than go through the dross to get to serious posts.

My first post in this thread covers the issue.

Mister D
12-10-2016, 05:50 PM
I find it hard to understand why it is so hard to ID the most egregious career trolls they are pretty evident.They rarely post threads that not are pointedly inflammatory,almost allways insulting, constantly derail threads ,insult for no other reason than that they are of opposite ideaology,Not naming names, but there are 3 well known ones that we all know the names of.Even there(respectable)party adherents tend to shun them
Yes, it's quite clear who the worst offenders are. I don't buy the "subjective" argument. It's one thing to make claims. Quite another to demonstrate their accuracy. A perusal of their posting history over the last week or so can easily demonstrate who engages in discussion or at least tries to (you're not all geniuses) and who has no interest in it.

resister
12-10-2016, 05:52 PM
Or they have better things to do than go through the dross to get to serious posts.

My first post in this thread covers the issue.I suspect many forum lurkers find other forums when they see the amount of trolling

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 05:54 PM
I suspect many forum lurkers find other forums when they see the amount of trolling

This is unfortunate.

I understand a few people want the free-for-all. And that is fine for a limited number of members. But not for most.

resister
12-10-2016, 05:55 PM
Yes, it's quite clear who the worst offenders are. I don't buy the "subjective" argument. It's one thing to make claims. Quite another to demonstrate their accuracy. A perusal of their posting history over the last week or so can easily demonstrate who engages in discussion or at least tries to (you're not all geniuses) and who has no interest in it.
Agreed, a new member figures out who they are on pretty much the first day, I did

Cletus
12-10-2016, 05:55 PM
I suspect many forum lurkers find other forums when they see the amount of trolling

Serious posters don't. The ones who run away are the ones who are unsure of themselves.

Even with a huge amount of trolling, a good poster can and will wade through the nonsense in short order and make his point. The trolls have no power until you acknowledge them.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 05:57 PM
Serious posters don't. The ones who run away are the ones who are unsure of themselves.

Even with a huge amount of trolling, a good poster can and will wade through the nonsense in short order and make his point. The trolls have no power until you acknowledge them.

I am not sure what you mean by serious.

Serious posters don't want nonsense trashing their threads.

resister
12-10-2016, 05:58 PM
This is unfortunate.

I understand a few people want the free-for-all. And that is fine for a limited number of members. But not for most.Possibly a insult section for the specific purpose can help get it out of there system.No need to do it in a good thread,just say meet me in the insult section at high noon :laugh:

Cletus
12-10-2016, 06:08 PM
I am not sure what you mean by serious.

Posters who want to engage in serious discussion. Posters like that don't let trolls chase them off. They just go over or around them.


Serious posters don't want nonsense trashing their threads.

Serious posters don't get bogged down with petty nonsense.

resister
12-10-2016, 06:11 PM
Posters who want to engage in serious discussion. Posters like that don't let trolls chase them off. They just go over or around them.



Serious posters don't get bogged down with petty nonsense.I kinda agree with both you guys on this.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 06:11 PM
Posters who want to engage in serious discussion. Posters like that don't let trolls chase them off. They just go over or around them.



Serious posters don't get bogged down with petty nonsense.

My first post in this thread covers this. You are in group 2. Solid.

A majority are not.

Hence my suggestion of creating a lighter side and a serious side.

On the serious side silly stuff will be banned.

On the lighter side you accept most anything posted without complaint.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 06:19 PM
My first post in this thread covers this. You are in group 2. Solid.

A majority are not.

Hence my suggestion of creating a lighter side and a serious side.

On the serious side silly stuff will be banned.

On the lighter side you accept most anything posted without complaint.

I have never seen that done before, but think it is an interesting idea. If it could be made to work, it might be the best possible fix. I wouldn't mind at all seeing it tried.

resister
12-10-2016, 06:22 PM
I have never seen that done before, but think it is an interesting idea. If it could be made to work, it might be the best possible fix. I wouldn't mind at all seeing it tried.Hey mods, lets get the fight room up in here.Instead of ruining a good thread , the mods might say,yall take it to the fight room.Every thing goes except threats

Common Sense
12-10-2016, 06:25 PM
I don't see a huge problem with trolling on this site. At the end of the day, we all decide what posts to respond to. Trolling only becomes an issue if you let it get to you.

I for one enjoy this multifaceted forum. I enjoy ribbing each other and I enjoy more serious discussions. I only really take issue with harassment, over the top insults and overt racism. That being said, we all know how to use the ignore function.

Cletus
12-10-2016, 06:34 PM
I don't see a huge problem with trolling on this site. At the end of the day, we all decide what posts to respond to. Trolling only becomes an issue if you let it get to you.

I for one enjoy this multifaceted forum. I enjoy ribbing each other and I enjoy more serious discussions. I only really take issue with harassment, over the top insults and overt racism. That being said, we all know how to use the ignore function.

I can't disagree with any of that.

AeonPax
12-10-2016, 06:39 PM
`
`
#1 - I think I'm getting old. The political fire in me has all but burnt itself out this election. I could not vote for either front running candidates as both were/are (analogously) two equal piles of feces.

#2 - Having said that, I am not sad that the warmongering Hillary lost, despite the fact that Trump is a egotistical, childish jackass.

#3 - I am inclined to pass over threads that devolve into insult fests. I can deal with it as the price one occasionally pays for wading into a contentious political discussions, but not all the time.

#4 - If I don't like someone or something that has been said, I don't comment on it, unless the comment sets itself up for a whimsical retort.

Chris
12-10-2016, 07:19 PM
Hey mods, lets get the fight room up in here.Instead of ruining a good thread , the mods might say,yall take it to the fight room.Every thing goes except threats

The Hole.

Chris
12-10-2016, 08:06 PM
`
`
#1 - I think I'm getting old. The political fire in me has all but burnt itself out this election. I could not vote for either front running candidates as both were/are (analogously) two equal piles of feces.

#2 - Having said that, I am not sad that the warmongering Hillary lost, despite the fact that Trump is a egotistical, childish jackass.

#3 - I am inclined to pass over threads that devolve into insult fests. I can deal with it as the price one occasionally pays for wading into a contentious political discussions, but not all the time.

#4 - If I don't like someone or something that has been said, I don't comment on it, unless the comment sets itself up for a whimsical retort.




I think I'm getting old.

We'll see what we can do about that.

resister
12-10-2016, 08:10 PM
The Hole.Is the hole voluntary?

resister
12-10-2016, 08:14 PM
Is the hole voluntary?Never mind,i just found it.Took me awhile:grin:

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 08:16 PM
Is the hole voluntary?

Anyone can post in the Hole. You have to look for it on the main menu. It doesn't come up in What's new.

gamewell45
12-10-2016, 08:17 PM
I am glad that the mods started this thread; I think we have had some good dialogue that has come from this and ideally some change for the better; if for nothing else it has allowed many in here to get issues off their chest.

Chris
12-10-2016, 08:24 PM
Never mind,i just found it.Took me awhile:grin:

“Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.”

resister
12-10-2016, 08:38 PM
“Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.”
Can we say whatever we want(aside from threats)? Please say yes

Crepitus
12-10-2016, 08:40 PM
Can we say whatever we want(aside from threats)? Please say yes

As far as I know the bike is completely unmoderated.

Have fun.

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 08:43 PM
As far as I know the bike is completely unmoderated.

Have fun.

In general inside the Hole you can do what you want except for porn and threats against members.

You can tell me to fuck off in the Hole and nobody will bat an eye. Of course I likely would never know because I rarely look down there.

resister
12-10-2016, 08:55 PM
In general inside the Hole you can do what you want except for porn and threats against members.

You can tell me to fuck off in the Hole and nobody will bat an eye. Of course I likely would never know because I rarely look down there.Instead of getting into it with a troll in the thread ,you can say, meet me in the hole?That sounds so dirty

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 08:56 PM
Instead of getting into it with a troll in the thread ,you can say, meet me in the hole?That sounds so dirty

Sure. Just don't keep it up. Ask once.

resister
12-10-2016, 09:04 PM
Hey mods,I had an issue with another political forum.I was a junior member, no infractions very few post.Lightning fried my old computer.A couple months later , iwas back online.I had forgotten my password,i registered on my new computer,I introduced myself under my old name,I was instantly banned for life(I told them my old username in my intro)They made no attempt to help me recover my password.They acted like iwas a banned member trying to change names.OH well..i like this one better(full disclosure, this is the second political forum I have ever been on)I was also a member of a muzzeloading forum,they did not ban me but I could not e mail mods for somre reason.How can I prevent such things(I remember my passwords now)This may be beneficial for returning members after an abscense

resister
12-10-2016, 09:05 PM
Sure. Just don't keep it up. Ask once.
Makes sense,other wise it is borderline harassment?

Peter1469
12-10-2016, 09:09 PM
Makes sense,other wise it is borderline harassment?

Right.

Beevee
12-11-2016, 06:36 AM
What is the point of 'Mentions'?
I only see it as a forum supported use of baiting.

Chris
12-11-2016, 07:22 AM
Can we say whatever we want(aside from threats)? Please say yes

As long as it's legal, pretty much.

Chris
12-11-2016, 07:27 AM
What is the point of 'Mentions'?
I only see it as a forum supported use of baiting.

Like any feature it can be useful or abused. I use it mainly in the mod room to get a mod's or admin's attention. I've seen it used where someone found something interesting that they wanted a couple few members to respond to. And then it can be used for baiting and then we consider it a call out and against the rules.

resister
12-11-2016, 08:07 AM
Hey mods,I had an issue with another political forum.I was a junior member, no infractions very few post.Lightning fried my old computer.A couple months later , iwas back online.I had forgotten my password,i registered on my new computer,I introduced myself under my old name,I was instantly banned for life(I told them my old username in my intro)They made no attempt to help me recover my password.They acted like iwas a banned member trying to change names.OH well..i like this one better(full disclosure, this is the second political forum I have ever been on)I was also a member of a muzzeloading forum,they did not ban me but I could not e mail mods for somre reason.How can I prevent such things(I remember my passwords now)This may be beneficial for returning members after an abscense
Any advice ^

Chris
12-11-2016, 08:17 AM
Any advice ^

Never had such trouble. Some people have forgotten password but you can just "Click here!" and as long as your email address is correct, be able to get in.

https://i.snag.gy/WHOeVj.jpg

resister
12-11-2016, 08:24 AM
Never had such trouble. Some people have forgotten password but you can just "Click here!" and as long as your email address is correct, be able to get in.

https://i.snag.gy/WHOeVj.jpg
That was the problem, I had forgotten my old email also (new one is my name,hard to forget)of course I was unable to email mods with no pass word

Chris
12-11-2016, 08:28 AM
That was the problem, I had forgotten my old email also (new one is my name,hard to forget)of course I was unable to email mods with no pass word

In that case i suppose use Contact Us near bottom of page.

resister
12-11-2016, 08:39 AM
I don't expect it to happen again.Thanks

Tahuyaman
12-11-2016, 01:27 PM
No names need be said.I se two types of trolling here, primary trolls(those who constantly troll unprovokedly, and reactionary trolling, responding to the former type after being poked.We all know who the primary trolls are, they singlehandly manage to create 90% of the trolling.I suspect quite a few lurkers never register after seeing how much non sense happens.

If the main offenders were banned I suspect membership would increase as well as content.My 2 cents

Maybe it would be appropriate to actually name names. Maybe some who do nothing but post trolling or baiting comments don't see that? Maybe calling them out personally would make them change their ways?

Green Arrow
12-11-2016, 03:36 PM
Maybe it would be appropriate to actually name names. Maybe some who do nothing but post trolling or baiting comments don't see that? Maybe calling them out personally would make them change their ways?

The mods specifically asked for no naming names, so to do so would blatantly disrespect their authority.

Tahuyaman
12-11-2016, 03:40 PM
The mods specifically asked for no naming names, so to do so would blatantly disrespect their authority.


I know that. Maybe a change to that policy/rule may do some good.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 09:17 PM
He trolls your "town hall" like he trolls the rest of the forum and you ask him politely to stop. lol @ this thread.

Pretty much this.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out who the trolls here are and defining trolling isn't brain science. Like Common stated, other forums have dealt with this issue successfully, this isn't anything new in the forum world. Chris flat-out struggles with judgment, that's his biggest weakness. He wants to turn everything into a process that eliminates judgment and that's a big part of why this forum is where it's at right now.

I like the idea of bringing back the "serious discussion" area and moderating that harder, leaving the rest of the forum lightly moderated.

But for trolls, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone here and if it is, you need a fucking lobotomy. Cigar is a troll, bethere is a troll, Eddie is a troll but he contributes too, that means something IMO. The former two don't.

The RW trolls I could have rattled off have already been banned, FWIW.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 09:20 PM
Dr. Who - you made a point earlier in the thread about members posting trolling or otherwise inflammatory gifs and I figured you were referring to me.

As I stated a few times now, the constant trolling from certain members really brings out the worst in everyone and I admit that my attitude here has soured a lot because of that and what I post is a direct reflection.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 09:58 PM
@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) - you made a point earlier in the thread about members posting trolling or otherwise inflammatory gifs and I figured you were referring to me.

As I stated a few times now, the constant trolling from certain members really brings out the worst in everyone and I admit that my attitude here has soured a lot because of that and what I post is a direct reflection.
My reference was general Cap. However, nothing gets better by doubling down on the problems. It just gets worse. People get angry and start giving what other's expect. It's like going around and around in circles. Instead of talking like human beings, we become caricatures of our own making. You may troll someone who you think is trolling who in turn believes that you live to troll him and whatever he feels about passionately and the pattern just keeps repeating. We all have our particular agendas but I'd like to think that we are for the most part decent people who don't really feel as hateful as the opinions that are often expressed. We can all be better communicators and better listeners. We can all stop putting each other in boxes and assuming the worst of each other. Perhaps if we tried to treat each other respectfully, we might get respect in return. That doesn't mean that anyone will change sides, but it might reduce the acrimony.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 10:13 PM
My reference was general Cap. However, nothing gets better by doubling down on the problems. It just gets worse. People get angry and start giving what other's expect. It's like going around and around in circles. Instead of talking like human beings, we become caricatures of our own making. You may troll someone who you think is trolling who in turn believes that you live to troll him and whatever he feels about passionately and the pattern just keeps repeating. We all have our particular agendas but I'd like to think that we are for the most part decent people who don't really feel as hateful as the opinions that are often expressed. We can all be better communicators and better listeners. We can all stop putting each other in boxes and assuming the worst of each other. Perhaps if we tried to treat each other respectfully, we might get respect in return. That doesn't mean that anyone will change sides, but it might reduce the acrimony.

In fairness, that is "chippiness" that we love to define, it's not necessarily trolling.

Trolling is when Cigar replies to every post with heckling and starting threads with the sole intention of inflaming. If he engaged in those threads then there would be an argument. There isn't one because he doesn't engage.

It's really not that difficult.

resister
12-11-2016, 10:17 PM
Maybe it would be appropriate to actually name names. Maybe some who do nothing but post trolling or baiting comments don't see that? Maybe calling them out personally would make them change their ways?I agree, but that is verbotin

resister
12-11-2016, 10:21 PM
My reference was general Cap. However, nothing gets better by doubling down on the problems. It just gets worse. People get angry and start giving what other's expect. It's like going around and around in circles. Instead of talking like human beings, we become caricatures of our own making. You may troll someone who you think is trolling who in turn believes that you live to troll him and whatever he feels about passionately and the pattern just keeps repeating. We all have our particular agendas but I'd like to think that we are for the most part decent people who don't really feel as hateful as the opinions that are often expressed. We can all be better communicators and better listeners. We can all stop putting each other in boxes and assuming the worst of each other. Perhaps if we tried to treat each other respectfully, we might get respect in return. That doesn't mean that anyone will change sides, but it might reduce the acrimony.
You assume people are capable of civility

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 10:27 PM
In fairness, that is "chippiness" that we love to define, it's not necessarily trolling.

Trolling is when Cigar replies to every post with heckling and starting threads with the sole intention of inflaming. If he engaged in those threads then there would be an argument. There isn't one because he doesn't engage.

It's really not that difficult.
Have you ever considered that this is ritual behavior that has been taught by continual acrimonious responses? I refer back to the caricatures that I spoke of previously.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 10:29 PM
You assume people are capable of civility

Yes I do. All people are capable of civility. It's a choice.

resister
12-11-2016, 10:31 PM
Yes I do. All people are capable of civility. It's a choice.
True, but some(the evident trolls)have made a very conscious decision not to

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 10:34 PM
Pretty much this.

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out who the trolls here are and defining trolling isn't brain science. Like @Common (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=659) stated, other forums have dealt with this issue successfully, this isn't anything new in the forum world. Chris flat-out struggles with judgment, that's his biggest weakness. He wants to turn everything into a process that eliminates judgment and that's a big part of why this forum is where it's at right now.

I like the idea of bringing back the "serious discussion" area and moderating that harder, leaving the rest of the forum lightly moderated.

But for trolls, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone here and if it is, you need a fucking lobotomy. Cigar is a troll, bethere is a troll, Eddie is a troll but he contributes too, that means something IMO. The former two don't.

The RW trolls I could have rattled off have already been banned, FWIW.
So have LW trolls. Check the list carefully in Announcements. However, the benchmark for banning is a little higher than snarky quips, for if it were lower, half the membership would be banned.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 10:38 PM
Have you ever considered that this is ritual behavior that has been taught by continual acrimonious responses? I refer back to the caricatures that I spoke of previously.

It's the nature of these forums.

Go spend some time on Political Hotwire or any one of the other ones out there.

Or Trinn's place for that matter.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 10:40 PM
So have LW trolls. Check the list carefully in Announcements. However, the benchmark for banning is a little higher than snarky quips, for if it were lower, half the membership would be banned.

JDub was a douchebag and he trolled but IMO he wasn't banning fodder. But I don't think he was banned for trolling.

Or that other angry old guy (forgot his name already), I think they were banned for not following rules after warnings.

Same for Mac I guess but I'm not arguing any of those, who's been banned for trolling?

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 10:41 PM
Yes I do. All people are capable of civility. It's a choice.

Like del said, we're all trolls, there's truth to that.

We're all civil, and uncivil at the same time. We're humans, that's how it goes.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 10:46 PM
True, but some(the evident trolls)have made a very conscious decision not to
While it may not be obvious to you as a member, it is obvious to me as a mod to whom your identified trolls are responding. They are generally responding either to those who perpetually troll their threads or members who consistently make sweeping hateful remarks about certain demographics. Also notably, they never troll the civil members of the forum regardless of political leaning.

resister
12-11-2016, 10:55 PM
While it may not be obvious to you as a member, it is obvious to me as a mod to whom your identified trolls are responding. They are generally responding either to those who perpetually troll their threads or members who consistently make sweeping hateful remarks about certain demographics. Also notably, they never troll the civil members of the forum regardless of political leaning.
I have not identified any trolls,that is not allowed in this thread

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 11:07 PM
JDub was a douchebag and he trolled but IMO he wasn't banning fodder. But I don't think he was banned for trolling.

Or that other angry old guy (forgot his name already), I think they were banned for not following rules after warnings.

Same for Mac I guess but I'm not arguing any of those, who's been banned for trolling?

'Trolling' is a many splendoured thing that ranges from snark to pure viciousness. Quips are snark and that is allowed on the forum. That is entry level trolling and most members do it. I expect if we banned snark, we would have about five members left on the forum.

If I am going to vote to ban someone, it will be for viciousness. Members have pretended that they are posting in good faith, but when their posts are so vicious and in bad faith that their opinion is lost in hateful rhetoric and attacks on polite discussion and they further refuse to change their ways, they get banned because we don't need that kind of hatred on the forum.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 11:10 PM
'Trolling' is a many splendoured thing that ranges from snark to pure viciousness. Quips are snark and that is allowed on the forum. That is entry level trolling and most members do it. I expect if we banned snark, we would have about five members left on the forum.

If I am going to vote to ban someone, it will be for viciousness. Members have pretended that they are posting in good faith, but when their posts are so vicious and in bad faith that their opinion is lost in hateful rhetoric and attacks on polite discussion and they further refuse to change their ways, they get banned because we don't need that kind of hatred on the forum.

It sounds like you're going to have a hard time defining "trolling" then.

Viciousness could also be a spur of the moment thing, most of us have had spats of it. It happens.

Trolling is a consistent pattern of baiting, flaming or heckling.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 11:18 PM
It's the nature of these forums.

Go spend some time on Political Hotwire or any one of the other ones out there.

Or Trinn's place for that matter.
As to the latter, I don't like echo chambers or game farms where there are a minority of opposing opinions to provide good hunting for the majority. It also begs the question, if those forums are so wonderful, why is anyone here?

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 11:21 PM
As to the latter, I don't like echo chambers or game farms where there are a minority of opposing opinions to provide good hunting for the majority. It also begs the question, if those forums are so wonderful, why is anyone here?

You avoided the point but to answer your question, people like to bicker. Some/many do, but there's probably a lot of reasons.

That's basically it.

I made my points in this thread for what it's worth.

Good luck with it.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 11:33 PM
It sounds like you're going to have a hard time defining "trolling" then.

Viciousness could also be a spur of the moment thing, most of us have had spats of it. It happens.

Trolling is a consistent pattern of baiting, flaming or heckling.
Those who do so consistently and in a manner that violates the forum rules, ultimately get banned. However, no one ever said that you have a right not to be offended on a forum. I know very well whom you are targeting as trolls, but honestly, they are not the ones who generally drag threads off topic and they are very easy to ignore, if you wish to do so.

Dr. Who
12-11-2016, 11:35 PM
It sounds like you're going to have a hard time defining "trolling" then.

Viciousness could also be a spur of the moment thing, most of us have had spats of it. It happens.

Trolling is a consistent pattern of baiting, flaming or heckling.
So is viciousness.

resister
12-11-2016, 11:35 PM
Those who do so consistently and in a manner that violates the forum rules, ultimately get banned. However, no one ever said that you have a right not to be offended on a forum. I know very well whom you are targeting as trolls, but honestly, they are not the ones who generally drag threads off topic and they are very easy to ignore, if you wish to do so.
And a partridge in a pear tree:rollseyes:

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 11:37 PM
Those who do so consistently and in a manner that violates the forum rules, ultimately get banned. However, no one ever said that you have a right not to be offended on a forum. I know very well whom you are targeting as trolls, but honestly, they are not the ones who generally drag threads off topic and they are very easy to ignore, if you wish to do so.

Who are they then, who drags threads off topic? Which isn't trolling necessarily also, threads evolve or devolve or whatever. Can't tell you how many of my threads devolved into something off topic but who cares? That's how it goes, and it's not trolling. It's life.

Cigar and bethere both regularly derail threads via trolling. This thread is a great example of many.

Captain Obvious
12-11-2016, 11:40 PM
So is viciousness.

Did you say earlier that we don't have the right to not be offended?

Again, to restate my earlier point, people react. I do, sometimes viciously when I'm being heckled or flame baited.

Dr. Who
12-12-2016, 12:21 AM
Did you say earlier that we don't have the right to not be offended?

Again, to restate my earlier point, people react. I do, sometimes viciously when I'm being heckled or flame baited.

Perhaps consider why you are being heckled. Are you perhaps making statements that are putting down others? If so, why wouldn't you be heckled? It's rare that I see a member post their opinion without slamming others, that they get heckled. There are a very few who will violate that unwritten rule, but for the most part, a sincere opinion that is free of hyperbole is generally not heckled. Those whom you identify as trolls are not the exceptions to the rule.

Common
12-12-2016, 05:15 AM
Did you say earlier that we don't have the right to not be offended?
Give it up, I wont participate in any more of these faux bs venues. Its the sameole redux of the same excuses to protect the same trolls over and over.

Again, to restate my earlier point, people react. I do, sometimes viciously when I'm being heckled or flame baited.


Resister made a great point. The trolls create respondents in kind, the end result is more trolling.

Every mod on this forum plays deaf and dumb and its just stupid. Everyone knows who trolls and has been incessantly trolling for years. They will protect them under all circumstances.

Count the VIPS how many left to how many right, count the mods. Then list the biggest trolls then list those that are trolls in self defense.

This whole thing is pure bullshit and I will do whatever I want to do and im smart enough to do it within this forums TROLL RULES, you can troll your brains out across this forum without breaking a single rule. How ridiculous is that. ciao

Safety
12-12-2016, 05:52 AM
It sounds like you're going to have a hard time defining "trolling" then.

Viciousness could also be a spur of the moment thing, most of us have had spats of it. It happens.

Trolling is a consistent pattern of baiting, flaming or heckling.

If you go to a truck forum, and a Chevy guy responds to a Ford thread about how much better Chevy is, Ford people will consider that trolling, while Chevy people will think it was an insightful post. That is just human nature.

That said, if it was a Ford truck forum, and the Chevy guy did the same thing, then the Chevy guy might get banned for trolling. That is what I see happening here. This isn't a right-wing or left-wing forum, it's a political forum. Different political views are allowed, and if you don't like something negative that was said about your guy/gal, suck it up and deal with it, but that doesn't automatically mean it was trolling.

Chris
12-12-2016, 07:03 AM
OK, so time to close this town hall. We appreciate all the participation. I think it was constructive. Hopefully we can have another real soon.