Russian Ambassador: Fair Game?

[Private Pickle]

So I've been thinking about this latest terrorist attack. The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey.

IMO This was a lone wolf situation (however; there tend to be a lot of lone wolves who practice Islam) but despite being an assassination it was a hit on a target of the State.

This wasn't a shooting at a work holiday party or a targeted civilian mass killing spree. This one guy shot a very important target but stopped there. He didn't continue blasting away for the next 15 minutes until he was killed.

For me, as an American this message is much more impactful. It has a statement with a period. It is not senseless. It is not without merit of some kind.

To me, this is a more civilized approach and one I think will have an impact on the leaders of this world if not the forces against them. You don't have to kill 20 random people and attack the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to sway. You attack one, very important individual who is culpable in some way to the degradation of your cause.

Thoughts?

[Peter1469]

I think the Russians will find some way to send a message that their diplomats are not to be attacked. I wonder if the assassin has a family.

[donttread]

I think the Russians will find some way to send a message that their diplomats are not to be attacked. I wonder if the assassin has a family.


When diplomacy fils get your diplomats the hell out

[donttread]

So I've been thinking about this latest terrorist attack. The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey.

IMO This was a lone wolf situation (however; there tend to be a lot of lone wolves who practice Islam) but despite being an assassination it was a hit on a target of the State.

This wasn't a shooting at a work holiday party or a targeted civilian mass killing spree. This one guy shot a very important target but stopped there. He didn't continue blasting away for the next 15 minutes until he was killed.

For me, as an American this message is much more impactful. It has a statement with a period. It is not senseless. It is not without merit of some kind.

To me, this is a more civilized approach and one I think will have an impact on the leaders of this world if not the forces against them. You don't have to kill 20 random people and attack the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to sway. You attack one, very important individual who is culpable in some way to the degradation of your cause.

Thoughts?

I have not studied this , nor do I claim to be an expert. but I think you are comparing a professional to amatures . What type of pro, trained by who , we may never know. But I agree with Peter, there will be retribution whether we hear of it or not.

[resister]

Gotta give him credit for that, not that I condone assassination.Why go shoot random cops ? Go shoot the guilty

[Tahuyaman]

So I've been thinking about this latest terrorist attack. The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey.

IMO This was a lone wolf situation (however; there tend to be a lot of lone wolves who practice Islam) but despite being an assassination it was a hit on a target of the State.

This wasn't a shooting at a work holiday party or a targeted civilian mass killing spree. This one guy shot a very important target but stopped there. He didn't continue blasting away for the next 15 minutes until he was killed.

For me, as an American this message is much more impactful. It has a statement with a period. It is not senseless. It is not without merit of some kind.

To me, this is a more civilized approach and one I think will have an impact on the leaders of this world if not the forces against them. You don't have to kill 20 random people and attack the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to sway. You attack one, very important individual who is culpable in some way to the degradation of your cause.

Thoughts?

I don't know how you can call this a "more civilized approach"?

[donttread]

I'd be interested in the assain's pre-cop training . It may well be that someone does not want relations between the two countries to improve.
Like I keep saying, not a sane faction in the region. And yes that includes us as it is patently insane to even be there.

[Private Pickle]

I have not studied this , nor do I claim to be an expert. but I think you are comparing a professional to amatures . What type of pro, trained by who , we may never know. But I agree with Peter, there will be retribution whether we hear of it or not.

Well unless it's unrest it Chechnya, and even then, we probably don't need to hear about it because it's nothing new. This guy was a Turkish cop. He was probably not a bad cop although that's just my assumption. But he was related to someone in Aleppo or had friends there. He had a statement.

The U.N. estimates about 400,000 people (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/staffan-de-mistura-400000-killed-syria-civil-war-160423055735629.html) have been killed in Aleppo since the battle first started back in March 2011.

http://www.ibtimes.com/aleppo-death-toll-how-many-people-have-been-killed-russian-syrian-war-2460548

You need to study this. This has been the worst massacre since the Balkins.


Since the Battle of Aleppo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012%E2%80%9316)) started in 2012, the city has suffered massive destruction,[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo#cite_note-15) and has been the worst-hit city in the Syrian Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War).[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo#cite_note-16)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo

We are talking about hundreds of thousands dead here. How has that slipped by you?

[Private Pickle]

I don't know how you can call this a "more civilized approach"?
Really? I said how. Compare this to the Holiday Party Shooting and get back to me.

[Tahuyaman]

Really? I said how. Compare this to the Holiday Party Shooting and get back to me.

Murder is murder. This is not the way a civilized people should respond. You are justifying it.


A more civilized approach would involve something much less violent than shooting someone in the back and killing them.

[Crepitus]

So I've been thinking about this latest terrorist attack. The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey.

IMO This was a lone wolf situation (however; there tend to be a lot of lone wolves who practice Islam) but despite being an assassination it was a hit on a target of the State.

This wasn't a shooting at a work holiday party or a targeted civilian mass killing spree. This one guy shot a very important target but stopped there. He didn't continue blasting away for the next 15 minutes until he was killed.

For me, as an American this message is much more impactful. It has a statement with a period. It is not senseless. It is not without merit of some kind.

To me, this is a more civilized approach and one I think will have an impact on the leaders of this world if not the forces against them. You don't have to kill 20 random people and attack the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to sway. You attack one, very important individual who is culpable in some way to the degradation of your cause.

Thoughts?

While civilised is a tag I hate to apply to killing someone I have to agree. Fair game might be a little far though.

I do believe it makes a much more powerful statement than a randomly killing a dozen bystanders for a couple of reasons. First is the message that the upper echelons aren't safe from retribution, "yes we can reach out and touch you". Second it will not alienate the populace as much as an indiscriminate attack would have.

[Private Pickle]

Murder is murder. This is not the way a civilized people should respond. You are justifying it.

Fair enough. Question: Was there ever a murder at the hand of another human that was ever justified?

A more civilized approach would involve something much less violent than shooting someone in the back and killing them.

Or less violent than the genocide taking place in Aleppo? We aren't talking about "someone". We're talking about 400,000 people. Now before you respond I want you to take that in. 400,000 people. That's like completely wiping out a city like Minneapolis.

Now maybe you know someone in Minneapolis... Maybe you even have a relative there that was wiped out by another nation's indiscriminate bombing. What are you going to do? Are you going to lobby Congress? Or, if you could, are you going to whack someone that had a direct correlative to the event?

Both answers are going to be right. This isn't about judging posters. This is about a discussion on what motivates people. This "assassin". This cop who assassinated an ambassador... He is a nobody. But he was a law abiding Turkish citizen. A normal guy that saw or more likely, directly felt what has been going on in Aleppo and was pushed to a point. Yet he didn't go on a shooting spree. A random, senseless abuse of humanity as we've seen in Nice and now Germany. Driving a truck into a group of people vs. a targeted assassination of an individual culpable in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands is drastically different is it not?

[Private Pickle]

While civilised is a tag I hate to apply to killing someone I have to agree. Fair game might be a little far though.

I do believe it makes a much more powerful statement than a randomly killing a dozen bystanders for a couple of reasons. First is the message that the upper echelons aren't safe from retribution, "yes we can reach out and touch you". Second it will not alienate the populace as much as an indiscriminate attack would have.
Absolutely agreed. But why isn't that fair game? We are talking about the direct vessel to the nation you are sending that message to. You're not taking Olympic athletes hostage to make a point. This isn't just a "soft target". In addition this guy didn't kill anyone else. It wasn't about body count, which gets media attention... It was about a high priority yet soft target that will get the same amount of media attention.

You're not killing women...children...or technically "innocents".... That...to me...is fair game...

[resister]

Absolutely agreed. But why isn't that fair game? We are talking about the direct vessel to the nation you are sending that message to. You're not taking Olympic athletes hostage to make a point. This isn't a "soft target". In addition this guy didn't kill anyone else. It wasn't about body count, which gets media attention... It was about a high priority yet soft target that will get the same amount of media attention.

You're not killing women...children...or technically "innocents".... That...to me...is fair game...
To bad all terrorist don't follow suit.No drones bombing hospitals and weddings

[Crepitus]

Absolutely agreed. But why isn't that fair game? We are talking about the direct vessel to the nation you are sending that message to. You're not taking Olympic athletes hostage to make a point. This isn't just a "soft target". In addition this guy didn't kill anyone else. It wasn't about body count, which gets media attention... It was about a high priority yet soft target that will get the same amount of media attention.

You're not killing women...children...or technically "innocents".... That...to me...is fair game...

I agree to a certain extent, but if we declare open season on diplomats things are gonna get messy pretty quick.

[Private Pickle]

To bad all terrorist don't follow suit.No drones bombing hospitals and weddings
Well...for good or bad that's my point. Look how much media has come of this. Now imagine something similar here...like an American Governor who is a relatively soft target but one that can provide motive.

This could be the dawn of a new era of terrorism.

[Private Pickle]

I agree to a certain extent, but if we declare open season on diplomats things are gonna get messy pretty quick.
"We" haven't declared anything but this Turkish cop just did. That is my entire point.

[donttread]

Well unless it's unrest it Chechnya, and even then, we probably don't need to hear about it because it's nothing new. This guy was a Turkish cop. He was probably not a bad cop although that's just my assumption. But he was related to someone in Aleppo or had friends there. He had a statement.


http://www.ibtimes.com/aleppo-death-toll-how-many-people-have-been-killed-russian-syrian-war-2460548

You need to study this. This has been the worst massacre since the Balkins.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo

We are talking about hundreds of thousands dead here. How has that slipped by you?

I meant I had not studied the assaination. The fact that factions are killing the shit out of each other in the ME is constant news and it remains unimproved by our interventions. I think we gotta leave and let them fight it out. On the other hand can you imagine what the son's a bitches that were the last one's standing in that vipers nest would be like?

[Private Pickle]

I meant I had not studied the assaination. The fact that factions are killing the shit out of each other in the ME is constant news and it remains unimproved by our interventions. I think we gotta leave and let them fight it out. On the other hand can you imagine what the son's a bitches that were the last one's standing in that vipers nest would be like?

OK Well as far as we know this "assassin" was a law abiding citizen of Turkey. What's more he was a cop with a good record. He got into the event with his credentials. But he killed a higher up. Even potentially killing a "war starting" individual. I'm sure the leaders of Turkey are losing sleep right now trying to figure out how to spin this... It will be cast as "radical Islam" but they are wrong in this case.
In this case we have one individual making a difference with killing one VIP. With the uproar/media attention/lack of distaste for killing civilians the "terrorists" may just reach 6th grade elementary terrorism and start hitting soft targets that doesn't create a disdain within the public in general. I mean the only ones pissed off right now about this assassination is Russia.

What? You going to somehow piss off Russia more so they kill 600,000 instead of 400,000?

[Tahuyaman]

Fair enough. Question: Was there ever a murder at the hand of another human that was ever justified?


Or less violent than the genocide taking place in Aleppo? We aren't talking about "someone". We're talking about 400,000 people. Now before you respond I want you to take that in. 400,000 people. That's like completely wiping out a city like Minneapolis.

Now maybe you know someone in Minneapolis... Maybe you even have a relative there that was wiped out by another nation's indiscriminate bombing. What are you going to do? Are you going to lobby Congress? Or, if you could, are you going to whack someone that had a direct correlative to the event?

Both answers are going to be right. This isn't about judging posters. This is about a discussion on what motivates people. This "assassin". This cop who assassinated an ambassador... He is a nobody. But he was a law abiding Turkish citizen. A normal guy that saw or more likely, directly felt what has been going on in Aleppo and was pushed to a point. Yet he didn't go on a shooting spree. A random, senseless abuse of humanity as we've seen in Nice and now Germany. Driving a truck into a group of people vs. a targeted assassination of an individual culpable in the slaughter of hundreds of thousands is drastically different is it not?

Wrongs aren't corrected by committing more wrongs.

[Private Pickle]

Wrongs aren't corrected by committing more wrongs.

Unfortunately this isn't a fairytale and there isn't a "happily ever after". If you want to hang on to your morals that's all fine and good...but remember those are your morals...not anyone else's...

Regardless....you didn't answer the hypothetically crafted question....

[Tahuyaman]

Unfortunately this isn't a fairytale and there isn't a "happily ever after". If you want to hang on to your morals that's all fine and good...but remember those are your morals...not anyone else's...

Regardless....you didn't answer the hypothetically crafted question....

I did answer.

[Peter1469]

When diplomacy fils get your diplomats the hell out

We have pulled diplomatic missions out of places before. Iran is an example.

[Grizz]

Of course it was senseless, are you seriously trying to make the case that taking the life of ANYONE is ok?

[Peter1469]

Right. The target was Russia. The Ambassador was Russia's representative to Turkey.
While civilised is a tag I hate to apply to killing someone I have to agree. Fair game might be a little far though.

I do believe it makes a much more powerful statement than a randomly killing a dozen bystanders for a couple of reasons. First is the message that the upper echelons aren't safe from retribution, "yes we can reach out and touch you". Second it will not alienate the populace as much as an indiscriminate attack would have.

[TimeLord962]

So I've been thinking about this latest terrorist attack. The assassination of the Russian Ambassador to Turkey.

IMO This was a lone wolf situation (however; there tend to be a lot of lone wolves who practice Islam) but despite being an assassination it was a hit on a target of the State.

This wasn't a shooting at a work holiday party or a targeted civilian mass killing spree. This one guy shot a very important target but stopped there. He didn't continue blasting away for the next 15 minutes until he was killed.

For me, as an American this message is much more impactful. It has a statement with a period. It is not senseless. It is not without merit of some kind.

To me, this is a more civilized approach and one I think will have an impact on the leaders of this world if not the forces against them. You don't have to kill 20 random people and attack the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to sway. You attack one, very important individual who is culpable in some way to the degradation of your cause.

Thoughts?

I think all Muslims should be banned from the west because they bring the rape jihad, honor killings, mass murder, and they worship a pedophile war criminal.

[donttread]

OK Well as far as we know this "assassin" was a law abiding citizen of Turkey. What's more he was a cop with a good record. He got into the event with his credentials. But he killed a higher up. Even potentially killing a "war starting" individual. I'm sure the leaders of Turkey are losing sleep right now trying to figure out how to spin this... It will be cast as "radical Islam" but they are wrong in this case.
In this case we have one individual making a difference with killing one VIP. With the uproar/media attention/lack of distaste for killing civilians the "terrorists" may just reach 6th grade elementary terrorism and start hitting soft targets that doesn't create a disdain within the public in general. I mean the only ones pissed off right now about this assassination is Russia.

What? You going to somehow piss off Russia more so they kill 600,000 instead of 400,000?

Well you gotta admit, given the region and the times it looks like piss poor security for one thing. Clearly they were not prepared if the killer could stnd there and gloat and it took 15 minutes to bring him down. But I would assume some of that's on the Russians.
What's your solution? More war?

[Peter1469]

Well you gotta admit, given the region and the times it looks like piss poor security for one thing. Clearly they were not prepared if the killer could stnd there and gloat and it took 15 minutes to bring him down. But I would assume some of that's on the Russians.
What's your solution? More war?
The assassin was on the stage acting like security.

I am surprised Russia didn't have security agents on the ambassador 24-7.

[Tahuyaman]

We have pulled diplomatic missions out of places before. Iran is an example.

Relations between Russia and Turkey have always been a mixed bag. They have been tense lately because of Syria and Turkey shooting down the Russian airliner. But they have substantial economic ties and both don't like western influence in the region.

I don't believe those relations were considered tense enough to warant pulling all diplomats from the country.

An Islamist acting out is always a possibility in that region. But no, the ambassador is not "free game. But then to an Islamist everyone is a target to include women, children and people in a hospital.

[Bethere]

But they have substantial economic ties and both don't like western influence in the region.

Turkey has been a member of nato for 64 years, and we do twice as much business with the turks than do the Russians.

[Ethereal]

Turkey is quickly turning into an Islamist state run by a megalomaniacal autocrat with imperialist designs on his neighbors and genocidal aspirations for the Kurds. They are giant liability and should be removed from NATO as soon as possible.

[Ethereal]

The assassin was an Islamist who wanted revenge against Russia for its war against Al Qaeda in eastern Aleppo.

[Bethere]

Turkey is quickly turning into an Islamist state run by a megalomaniacal autocrat with imperialist designs on his neighbors and genocidal aspirations for the Kurds. They are giant liability and should be removed from NATO as soon as possible.

Geographically, turkey is the most important member of the nato coalition. You forget nato's mission.

[Ethereal]

Geographically, turkey is the most important member of the nato coalition.
They need us far more than we need them. We can obtain cooperation from them without giving them the immense privilege of NATO membership.

[Bethere]

They need us far more than we need them. We can obtain cooperation from them without giving them the immense privilege of NATO membership.

You are wrong. They have the world's 6th ranked defense. They sit on critical real estate. We need them as much as they need us.

They've been nato members since 1952. We aren't empowered to remove anyone's membership.

[Ethereal]

You are wrong. They have the world's 6th ranked defense. They sit on critical real estate. We need them as much as they need us.

They've been nato members since 1952. We aren't empowered to remove anyone's membership.

Their defensive ranking is a direct consequence of our largess. We provide them with almost all of their advanced technology and methodology. Without us, they'd still be riding into battle on horses. The idea that the USA, the richest and most powerful country ever, needs Turkey more than they need us is a joke.

[donttread]

Geographically, turkey is the most important member of the nato coalition. You forget nato's mission.


Which is what exactly? To spread instability like western interventionism does?

[donttread]

The assassin was on the stage acting like security.

I am surprised Russia didn't have security agents on the ambassador 24-7.

In Turkey, so am I . Seems like an unindentified security agent should raise some suspicions in a volitile region. Probably both security teams dropped the ball. Interesting, but I won't go all Conspiracy Theory yet.

[donttread]

We have pulled diplomatic missions out of places before. Iran is an example.

We should do so more often. If they're killing your diplomats, diplomacy ain't workin.

[Ransom]

We should do so more often. If they're killing your diplomats, diplomacy ain't workin.

If they're killing your newspaper editors, Charlie Hebdo ain't workin. If they attack your airport in Brussels, non-intervention ain't workin. If they wipe out an entire concert venue in Paris, withdrawing behind your borders ain't workin. If you've a Christmas Market setup and they drive a truck over it, then merriment ain't workin. If they're bombing your airliners in Egypt, your coziness with the West ain't workin. If they're raping and killing your hospital aid workers, then trying to help ain't workin.

What ain't workin is for someone with the historical perspective of a household fly and knowledge base of 0.3 weigh in on important geopolitical issues without an agenda but to make the US(who he hates with his very soul)look the responsible party.

Sheer f'n idiocy on display.

[donttread]

If they're killing your newspaper editors, Charlie Hebdo ain't workin. If they attack your airport in Brussels, non-intervention ain't workin. If they wipe out an entire concert venue in Paris, withdrawing behind your borders ain't workin. If you've a Christmas Market setup and they drive a truck over it, then merriment ain't workin. If they're bombing your airliners in Egypt, your coziness with the West ain't workin. If they're raping and killing your hospital aid workers, then trying to help ain't workin.

What ain't workin is for someone with the historical perspective of a household fly and knowledge base of 0.3 weigh in on important geopolitical issues without an agenda but to make the US(who he hates with his very soul)look the responsible party.

Sheer f'n idiocy on display.

The obvious, to everyone but you apparently, difference being that while you are talking about attacks on home or allied soil, I am talking about placing civillians with inadequate protection in hostile terrority.
You can see the difference now, right?

[Tahuyaman]

Turkey has been a member of nato for 64 years, and we do twice as much business with the turks than do the Russians.

So what? They can do business with us, but still not like our influence on their society.

[Tahuyaman]

Turkey is quickly turning into an Islamist state run by a megalomaniacal autocrat with imperialist designs on his neighbors and genocidal aspirations for the Kurds. They are giant liability and should be removed from NATO as soon as possible.

I don't know that they are becoming imperialistic, but Islam is becoming more of the driving force there. How relevant NATO is any more?

[Private Pickle]

Well you gotta admit, given the region and the times it looks like piss poor security for one thing. Clearly they were not prepared if the killer could stnd there and gloat and it took 15 minutes to bring him down. But I would assume some of that's on the Russians.
What's your solution? More war?

My solution to what? Let's not stay off topic.

[Ransom]

The obvious, to everyone but you apparently, difference being that while you are talking about attacks on home or allied soil, I am talking about placing civillians with inadequate protection in hostile terrority.
You can see the difference now, right?

You have consistently explained to me.........that the placing of those civilians with "inadequate protection" in hostile territory.......our air and drone strikes, our presence and support for Israel.......is what brings the attacks here at home or allied soil Sir.

Your theories without a shred of historical perspective of course.....waver...when attacks come on those who haven't intervened. Haven't put "civilians without adequate protection into hostile territory." Your theories wilt and look inept when neutral Brussels is attacked, look weak and feckless when a country that has leaned tolerance and inclusive is savagely attacked in Paris. Egyptian airliners explode as do Russian airliners. There are attacks in San B California, there are attacks against western newspapers. Other Muslims aren't spared, those suffering the worst fate from ISIS and civil war in the Middle East.....are Muslims.....as they have for centuries and yet you blame America for even that.

You boast and bellow the same nonsense time and again, reality itself proves you wrong. And I'll continue to point out just how bad. What say you quit while you're way f'n behind.

[Peter1469]

In Turkey, so am I . Seems like an unindentified security agent should raise some suspicions in a volitile region. Probably both security teams dropped the ball. Interesting, but I won't go all Conspiracy Theory yet.

I don't think there was a conspiracy. I think the ambassador didn't have his own security team.