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View Full Version : Will Obama pardon Clinton? And if he does, will she accept?



Chris
12-27-2016, 09:50 PM
You can read the article, Will Obama pardon Clinton? And if he does, will she accept? (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/311883-pardon-the-interruption-clinton-allegation-may-force) but to me the question is all that's needed. Questions, sure you can dismiss both by answering the first, no, but what if he did?

resister
12-27-2016, 09:52 PM
An admission of guilt

Crepitus
12-27-2016, 10:01 PM
She's gotta be charged with something first.

resister
12-27-2016, 10:02 PM
She's gotta be charged with something first.
Not sure, seems not required.

resister
12-27-2016, 10:03 PM
Not sure, seems not required.
Seems we have gone over this before.

Chris
12-27-2016, 10:10 PM
She's gotta be charged with something first.

I don't think so. She can be pardoned before prosecution, freed from prosecution. Consider Ford's pardon of Nixon. See EX PARTE GARLAND, (1866) (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/71/333.html).

resister
12-27-2016, 10:13 PM
I don't think so. She can be pardoned before prosecution, freed from prosecution. Consider Ford's pardon of Nixon. See EX PARTE GARLAND, (1866) (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/71/333.html).
Can I get one of those to keep in my wallet? Next to my expired fishing license? Dad gumm 78 $ ticket ....Guhh..

Chris
12-27-2016, 10:17 PM
Can I get one of those to keep in my wallet? Next to my expired fishing license? Dad gumm 78 $ ticket ....Guhh..

Write a letter to Obama.

resister
12-27-2016, 10:19 PM
Write a letter to Obama.
I would but the stamp would cost me twice as much as the face value :grin:

Subdermal
12-27-2016, 11:42 PM
She's gotta be charged with something first.

No, she doesn't.

Captain Obvious
12-28-2016, 12:24 AM
Will Trump pardon teh O'bama?

Peter1469
12-28-2016, 07:06 AM
She's gotta be charged with something first.

Why

Beevee
12-28-2016, 07:11 AM
Isn't America a wonderful place?
The possibility of being pardoned for something you didn't do and being jailed for it simultaneously.

Peter1469
12-28-2016, 07:27 AM
Isn't America a wonderful place?
The possibility of being pardoned for something you didn't do and being jailed for it simultaneously.
lol

She violated the Espionage Act.

MMC
12-28-2016, 08:08 AM
You can read the article, Will Obama pardon Clinton? And if he does, will she accept? (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/311883-pardon-the-interruption-clinton-allegation-may-force) but to me the question is all that's needed. Questions, sure you can dismiss both by answering the first, no, but what if he did?

Can he pardon her for incompetency, being a sore loser, and dumbfuckitis.....all at the same time?

MMC
12-28-2016, 08:21 AM
lol

She violated the Espionage Act.

Don't forget perjury and Participatory Obstruction.

Chris
12-28-2016, 08:23 AM
Isn't America a wonderful place?
The possibility of being pardoned for something you didn't do and being jailed for it simultaneously.

Do you know something the rest of us don't?

Beevee
12-28-2016, 08:28 AM
lol

She violated the Espionage Act.

Charges? Trial? Conviction? Sentence?

resister
12-28-2016, 08:31 AM
Charges? Trial? Conviction? Sentence?
Can we say "corruption in high places" ?

MMC
12-28-2016, 08:36 AM
Oh, and don't forget she violated the Federal Records act.....and is still in 5 courts over FOIA's.

Then there is The State Dept OIG who decided she was guilty of breaking State Dept protocols and rules. That she violated the Federal Records act and Refusing to cooperate with an In House investigation.


The other questions is.....will BO peep pardon all her aides/lackeys who took the 5th to not incriminate themselves.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 08:39 AM
Isn't America a wonderful place? The possibility of being pardoned for something you didn't do and being jailed for it simultaneously.

...or something you did do...

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 08:39 AM
Charges? Trial? Conviction? Sentence?

So...., now you want that?

Beevee
12-28-2016, 08:44 AM
So...., now you want that?

Amazing how American's preach to the world that they have the best justice system. If only they were to use it.

Chris
12-28-2016, 08:54 AM
Amazing how American's preach to the world that they have the best justice system. If only they were to use it.

We do?

Beevee
12-28-2016, 09:29 AM
We do?

Of course you do. Maybe not you personally but within this forum claims exist that America is best at this....that...and the other.
Would you take a bet that the best justice system in the world isn't one of them?

Chris
12-28-2016, 09:30 AM
Of course you do. Maybe not you personally but within this forum claims exist that America is best at this....that...and the other.
Would you take a bet that the best justice system in the world isn't one of them?

Ah, I see, SOME Americans claim that and you overgeneralized to ALL.

Cigar
12-28-2016, 09:33 AM
:grin:

FindersKeepers
12-28-2016, 09:49 AM
You can read the article, Will Obama pardon Clinton? And if he does, will she accept? (http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-administration/311883-pardon-the-interruption-clinton-allegation-may-force) but to me the question is all that's needed. Questions, sure you can dismiss both by answering the first, no, but what if he did?

I'm not sure I understand the entire process of a presidential pardon, but, from reading about why a blanket pardon would not be doable for illegal immigrants, I came away with the idea that the person seeking the pardon had to make a formal request.

If that's the case, then Hillary would have to first request a pardon, which would indicate that she would accept it as well.

I'm leaning toward the idea that a pardon will happen, if Obama doesn't grant one -- Trump will.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 09:51 AM
Isn't America a wonderful place?
The possibility of being pardoned for something you didn't do and being jailed for it simultaneously.
Ignorance Alert.

FindersKeepers
12-28-2016, 09:51 AM
Charges? Trial? Conviction? Sentence?

Do you think that only a person who is convicted has violated a law?

If you steal your neighbor's shovel but you don't get caught -- does that mean you didn't do it?

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 09:53 AM
I'm not sure I understand the entire process of a presidential pardon, but, from reading about why a blanket pardon would not be doable for illegal immigrants, I came away with the idea that the person seeking the pardon had to make a formal request.

If that's the case, then Hillary would have to first request a pardon, which would indicate that she would accept it as well.

I'm leaning toward the idea that a pardon will happen, if Obama doesn't grant one -- Trump will.
If Trump does he can plan on four instead of eight years.

If Obama does he can add an additional 8 years before Democrats have a chance of winning the White House.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:13 AM
Do you think that only a person who is convicted has violated a law?

If you steal your neighbor's shovel but you don't get caught -- does that mean you didn't do it?

If that's your story and you're sticking to it.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:13 AM
Just go ahead and hang her. You'll feel better.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 10:14 AM
Just go ahead and hang her. You'll feel better.
Thanks. Trial first. Then I will feel better when the nation executes her.

Cigar
12-28-2016, 10:16 AM
Just go ahead and hang her. You'll feel better.

This country is more experienced at shooting people in the back ... after all, it's not like it's Murder and it's not like their Human Beings.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:18 AM
Thanks. Trial first. Then I will feel better when the nation executes her.

Just curious. Any qualms about personally pulling the lever? Gallows or sitting on a horse? Live streaming available?

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 10:21 AM
Just curious. Any qualms about personally pulling the lever? Gallows or sitting on a horse? Live streaming available?
I have no qualms. Firing squad or hanging. Let Crooked choose.

Subdermal
12-28-2016, 10:25 AM
If that's your story and you're sticking to it.
Ah, more evidence of the weakness of moral relativism. What your 'story' is has no bearing at all upon whether or not a law was violated. Your actions dictate such a thing.

Subdermal
12-28-2016, 10:26 AM
Just curious. Any qualms about personally pulling the lever? Gallows or sitting on a horse? Live streaming available?
Stick to pretending to be on the right in any way. Your slip is showing.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 10:28 AM
Stick to pretending to be on the right in any way. Your slip is showing.
Does he pretend to be on the right? His words betray him.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:41 AM
Ah, more evidence of the weakness of moral relativism. What your 'story' is has no bearing at all upon whether or not a law was violated. Your actions dictate such a thing.

No! Argument for the sake of argument. If I maintain my innocence, the burden falls upon you to prove my alleged guilt. Until such time, I violated no law.

Glad to see your having yet another, happy day.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 10:42 AM
No! Argument for the sake of argument. If I maintain my innocence, the burden falls upon you to prove my alleged guilt. Until such time, I violated no law.

Glad to see your having yet another, happy day.
Lawyer? This is why lawyers are held in low regard.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:42 AM
Stick to pretending to be on the right in any way. Your slip is showing.

Of course you would notice.

Have a stellar day!

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:43 AM
Lawyer? This is why lawyers are held in low regard.

No, but I know the value of the good ones like DGUtley.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 10:46 AM
Lawyer? This is why lawyers are held in low regard.

We are? Isn't that interesting; yet, whenever someone's in trouble the first one they reach out to is their lawyer. Why do you think that is?
Docthehun -- yes, IMHO, someone can have violated a law even without a conviction. MisterVeritis -- we're going to execute someone for what we think that Hillary did? In what century?

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 10:51 AM
We are? Isn't that interesting; yet, whenever someone's in trouble the first one they reach out to is their lawyer. Why do you think that is?
@Docthehun (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1986) -- yes, IMHO, someone can have violated a law even without a conviction.

Prove it! :smiley:

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 10:53 AM
Prove it! :smiley:

Lol. It's obvious and the examples are too numerous. For one: Someone can cheat on their taxes without getting caught. They've violated the law yet aren't convicted.

Docthehun
12-28-2016, 11:01 AM
Lol. It's obvious and the examples are too numerous. For one: Someone can cheat on their taxes without getting caught. They've violated the law yet aren't convicted.

Good try Counselor!

I'll give you more time.

Great Times

PS - You're a great attorney, but I've still got ten years on you!

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 11:12 AM
We are? Isn't that interesting; yet, whenever someone's in trouble the first one they reach out to is their lawyer. Why do you think that is?
@Docthehun (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1986) -- yes, IMHO, someone can have violated a law even without a conviction. @MisterVeritis (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1287) -- we're going to execute someone for what we think that Hillary did? In what century?
Yes. Lawyers are held in low regard. Were you unaware?

The lesser-told story is the enormous damage Crooked Hillary did to our human spying. I believe our spies were discovered, captured, tortured and killed as a result of Clinton's crimes. The damage she did to the US will last for generations. She should pay with her life. No one will spy for us while Clinton lives. The nation needs to try her, possibly in a closed court so classified materials may be used to convict her.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 11:13 AM
No, but I know the value of the good ones like @DGUtley (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=2019).
I am sure there are good lawyers. I am sure there are good politicians. But that is not the way to bet.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 11:28 AM
Yes. Lawyers are held in low regard. Were you unaware? The lesser-told story is the enormous damage Crooked Hillary did to our human spying. I believe our spies were discovered, captured, tortured and killed as a result of Clinton's crimes. The damage she did to the US will last for generations. She should pay with her life. No one will spy for us while Clinton lives. The nation needs to try her, possibly in a closed court so classified materials may be used to convict her.

1. I'm aware of the perception. I don't think that's the reality.
2. We have a long history in this country of prosecuting people regardless of status. If there's been a crime here, she should be prosecuted, but personally I would like to see the country move on -- just like Obama did with Bush.

Newpublius
12-28-2016, 11:36 AM
Yes. Lawyers are held in low regard. Were you unaware?

The lesser-told story is the enormous damage Crooked Hillary did to our human spying. I believe our spies were discovered, captured, tortured and killed as a result of Clinton's crimes. The damage she did to the US will last for generations. She should pay with her life. No one will spy for us while Clinton lives. The nation needs to try her, possibly in a closed court so classified materials may be used to convict her.

Trust me I am a lawyer and I hold the 'profession' itself in low regard. Fortunately I spent most of my time doing other things that aren't 'law' but goong back to Reagan, "government is the problem" which in great part means the problem really IS lawyers. I can see it with my colleagues down here in temporary cubicle city, problems are thought of in terns of laws, changing them or making them.

Chris
12-28-2016, 11:44 AM
I'm not sure I understand the entire process of a presidential pardon, but, from reading about why a blanket pardon would not be doable for illegal immigrants, I came away with the idea that the person seeking the pardon had to make a formal request.

If that's the case, then Hillary would have to first request a pardon, which would indicate that she would accept it as well.

I'm leaning toward the idea that a pardon will happen, if Obama doesn't grant one -- Trump will.

Interesting point, didn't know that.

Trump might.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 11:46 AM
Trust me I am a lawyer and I hold the 'profession' itself in low regard. Fortunately I spent most of my time doing other things that aren't 'law' but goong back to Reagan, "government is the problem" which in great part means the problem really IS lawyers. I can see it with my colleagues down here in temporary cubicle city, problems are thought of in terns of laws, changing them or making them.

I hold the profession in high regard. I litigate civil cases for the insurance industry throughout the Northern half of Ohio and I will have been doing so for 30 years this coming November 16th. I think 99% of the attorneys I work with try to do the right thing within the bounds of the law. Remember, outside of government or corporate work people come into contact with attorneys when they have a problem so there's a built in 'issue' or negativity in their mind. Typically, there's a perception that someone wins or loses, so 1/2 of the people are going to be upset with their lawyer and of those that 'won' a good chunk think:

1. it took too long,
2. they didn't do well enough
3. it wasn't fair
4. it cost too much
5. put your thought here...

Thus, of the 1/2 that won, a good chunk are going to be disappointed. Add all of that up and you get the perception. Every case I've ever tried, before the jury comes back I walk over to the other side and congratulate them for a good case, tell them that they had a great lawyer that did a very good job and wish them luck with the jury as I shake their hands. Regardless of outcome, we want the people to believe that the system worked for them.

Every lawyer I know does pro bono work. Every lawyer I know eats fees, eats costs etc. One of the problems is mentoring -- not enough of it.

AZ Jim
12-28-2016, 11:56 AM
Do you think that only a person who is convicted has violated a law?

If you steal your neighbor's shovel but you don't get caught -- does that mean you didn't do it?You confuse moral with legal. If he steals the shovel and doesn't get caught or charged then he is a shitty neighbor but not a criminal unless charged with and convicted of a crime.

Newpublius
12-28-2016, 12:00 PM
You confuse moral with legal. If he steals the shovel and doesn't get caught or charged then he is a $#@!ty neighbor but not a criminal unless charged with and convicted of a crime.

That is actually not true. You're defining a term narrowly where, when used in an unqualified sense, requires an element that isn't actuallynrequired in ordinary parlance. If true, nobody would ever say 'convicted criminal' -- since, by definition, all criminals would have been convicted.

Newpublius
12-28-2016, 12:02 PM
I hold the profession in high regard. I litigate civil cases for the insurance industry throughout the Northern half of Ohio and I will have been doing so for 30 years this coming November 16th. I think 99% of the attorneys I work with try to do the right thing within the bounds of the law. Remember, outside of government or corporate work people come into contact with attorneys when they have a problem so there's a built in 'issue' or negativity in their mind. Typically, there's a perception that someone wins or loses, so 1/2 of the people are going to be upset with their lawyer and of those that 'won' a good chunk think:

1. it took too long,
2. they didn't do well enough
3. it wasn't fair
4. it cost too much
5. put your thought here...

Thus, of the 1/2 that won, a good chunk are going to be disappointed. Add all of that up and you get the perception. Every case I've ever tried, before the jury comes back I walk over to the other side and congratulate them for a good case, tell them that they had a great lawyer that did a very good job and wish them luck with the jury as I shake their hands. Regardless of outcome, we want the people to believe that the system worked for them.

Every lawyer I know does pro bono work. Every lawyer I know eats fees, eats costs etc. One of the problems is mentoring -- not enough of it.

Well I am on the pro bono list now but wasn't before. My point though is far simpler. Lawyers, individually may be smart, but being a lawyer dorsn't prove to me that person is reallt clever. It really is the bottom of the professions and is nowhere CLOSE to being a doctor. My experience becoming an attorney and passing NY/NJ bars is that it wasn't very hard. Knowing 'law' isn't rocket science.

For me what makes somebody a GREAT lawyer is really social skills, the same thing that made Tom Cruise a great lawyer in A Few Good Men.....presence.....gravitas.....

The corpus of law is immense, its altogrther unknowable, I don't know the wrinkles of OH law anymore than you know NJ, but if we switched places, we would...in short order too because its really not academically challenging to do that.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 12:14 PM
Well I am on the pro bono list now but wasn't before. My point though is far simpler. Lawyers, individually may be smart, but being a lawyer dorsn't prove to me that person is reallt clever. It really is the bottom of the professions and is nowhere CLOSE to being a doctor. My experience becoming an attorney and passing NY/NJ bars is that it wasn't very hard. Knowing 'law' isn't rocket science. For me what makes somebody a GREAT lawyer is really social skills, the same thing that made Tom Cruise a great lawyer in A Few Good Men.....presence.....gravitas..... The corpus of law is immense, its altogrther unknowable, I don't know the wrinkles of OH law anymore than you know NJ, but if we switched places, we would...in short order too because its really not academically challenging to do that.

I'm sure you're a fine lawyer and I commend you for doing pro bono work. Don't sell yourself short for being a lawyer -- we help in the administration of justice in the greatest and fairest legal system ever devised. Every single working day.

I'm not sure what clever means when contrasted with smart. I think that it 'takes' a certain personality or skill set to be a litigator. I strongly disagree that it is the 'bottom of the professions'. It's a different profession, to be sure, but each profession maintains and requires an entirely different skill set -- each challenging in their own right, each requiring a different degree of acumen. I do think it's academically challenging. One of my niches is insurance coverage issues -- insurers hire me to analyze policies and their application to specific factual scenarios. The law is immense in this regard, requiring application of a multiple of choice of law issues etc that takes days and weeks of analysis.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 12:16 PM
1. I'm aware of the perception. I don't think that's the reality.
2. We have a long history in this country of prosecuting people regardless of status. If there's been a crime here, she should be prosecuted, but personally I would like to see the country move on -- just like Obama did with Bush.
We cannot move on by allowing the powerful and well-connected get off unscathed.

AZ Jim
12-28-2016, 12:20 PM
That is actually not true. You're defining a term narrowly where, when used in an unqualified sense, requires an element that isn't actuallynrequired in ordinary parlance. If true, nobody would ever say 'convicted criminal' -- since, by definition, all criminals would have been convicted.Charge, Try, convict= Criminal.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 12:22 PM
Typically, there's a perception that someone wins or loses, so 1/2 of the people are going to be upset with their lawyer and of those that 'won' a good chunk think:

1. it took too long,
2. they didn't do well enough
3. it wasn't fair
4. it cost too much
5. put your thought here...

Thus, of the 1/2 that won, a good chunk are going to be disappointed.


We won my case. It costs me several tens of thousands of dollars and took more than a year. But I won nothing. The harm to me was done but not undone.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 12:28 PM
We cannot move on by allowing the powerful and well-connected get off unscathed.
1. I get it and agree with it.
2. Big picture, I'm not sure it's best for the country.
3. In our justice system, I'm not sure #2 is relevant.
4. I'm torn.

DGUtley
12-28-2016, 12:29 PM
We won my case. It costs me several tens of thousands of dollars and took more than a year. But I won nothing. The harm to me was done but not undone.

You righted a wrong in principle.

MisterVeritis
12-28-2016, 12:31 PM
You righted a wrong in principle.
But not in fact.