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Ethereal
01-14-2017, 07:29 AM
Trump and his supporters are in way, way over their heads.

And the reason for this is simple. Most of them have little to no idea what they're up against or how to combat it.

Ironically enough, much of this is their own fault.

Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups. And for decades conservatives have slavishly deferred to and even championed these agencies as forces of freedom and democracy, insisting that they be given ever-increasing amounts of funding, power, and secrecy. Even Trump himself is guilty of this to some degree, making wildly inaccurate claims about how Obama "depleted" the military and promising to rectify this nonexistent problem by lavishing even more taxpayer money on the military-industrial complex.

The decades of deference and apologia have left conservatives totally ill-equipped to fight this battle, which is why it's only a matter of time before Trump is mollified and his plans for US-Russian detente are severely weakened or reversed.

Naturally, I hope that I'm wrong. Nothing would be better for the world than to see improved relations between two great powers with enough nukes to destroy the planet. But I do not believe conservatives have it in them to take on these agencies because they either do not realize or refuse to admit what kind of evil they are up against.

Common
01-14-2017, 07:36 AM
Turning a blind eye isnt one sided, both democrat and republican administrations promoted intelligence and made them for the most part untouchable.

I disagree on one thing, the viciousness of the attacks on trump by the left is unprecedented but just like Harry Reid set a precedent with the nuke option that is goiing to haunt democrats. These attacks on trump to not diminish him but to try and destroy him will not go unanswered in the future either. The democrats have created a climate in this country of pure viciousness. If they continue many moderate democrats will see it for what it is and they will pay a price

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 07:47 AM
Turning a blind eye isnt one sided, both democrat and republican administrations promoted intelligence and made them for the most part untouchable.

That's true. The deference and servility exercised towards US intelligence agencies has been bipartisan. But that does not change the fact that conservatives made their own bed and now have to sleep in it.


I disagree on one thing, the viciousness of the attacks on trump by the left is unprecedented but just like Harry Reid set a precedent with the nuke option that is goiing to haunt democrats. These attacks on trump to not diminish him but to try and destroy him will not go unanswered in the future either. The democrats have created a climate in this country of pure viciousness. If they continue many moderate democrats will see it for what it is and they will pay a price

This isn't about Republicans and Democrats though. The deep state doesn't care if Democrats suffer politically as a result of this anti-Trump campaign. All they care about is maintaining their position of virtual invincibility within the power structure and it appears as if they are succeeding. It seems like it's only a matter of time before Trump is brought to heel.

FindersKeepers
01-14-2017, 09:17 AM
Trump and his supporters are in way, way over their heads.

And the reason for this is simple. Most of them have little to no idea what they're up against or how to combat it.

Ironically enough, much of this is their own fault.

Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups. And for decades conservatives have slavishly deferred to and even championed these agencies as forces of freedom and democracy, insisting that they be given ever-increasing amounts of funding, power, and secrecy. Even Trump himself is guilty of this to some degree, making wildly inaccurate claims about how Obama "depleted" the military and promising to rectify this nonexistent problem by lavishing even more taxpayer money on the military-industrial complex.

The decades of deference and apologia have left conservatives totally ill-equipped to fight this battle, which is why it's only a matter of time before Trump is mollified and his plans for US-Russian detente are severely weakened or reversed.

Naturally, I hope that I'm wrong. Nothing would be better for the world than to see improved relations between two great powers with enough nukes to destroy the planet. But I do not believe conservatives have it in them to take on these agencies because they either do not realize or refuse to admit what kind of evil they are up against.

I think you're right. Having long allied themselves with the intelligence community, conservatives are struggling now to figure out how to counter a vicious and unprecedented spook assault.

And liberals, understandably upset by their recent loss, are getting into bed with anyone who comes up with a cockamamie story to delegitimize Trump. They're jumping on any bandwagon, no matter how ridiculous and superficial the accusations might be.

And, Trump might not survive the onslaught. He doesn't know how to -- his supporters can't figure out how to. He's fighting a Twitter war against opponents that overthrow entire political leaderships and wage war wherever they feel like doing so. Chuck Shumer came right out and said that Trump was making a mistake challenging the agencies that have all sorts of ways of destroying lives if they so choose.

On the one hand -- the recent attacks have been so far-fetched that they might result in making some Americans question what lengths the disingenuous anti-Trumpeters will go to. Yet, MSM is in the bag for the intel agencies, and the liberals who once took a firm stand against Deep State tactics, are now supporting them enthusiastically. Journalistic integrity left the building. Anonymous accusations are published as if they were valid news, as the propaganda war revs up.

We've entered the theater of the absurd.

Subdermal
01-14-2017, 09:31 AM
I agree in principle, but disagree in one important respect. The typical intelligence agent is ideologically more similar to military personnel than different. Their roles and activities, however, are nearly exclusively formed from the top, and the top - regardless the Party occupying the White House - appears to have been driven by Establishment politics. That means the heavy interventionism and geo-political manipulation to congeal power in a centralized manner (Brussels) while using American taxpayer money to do so, both working against our interests, our borders; our sovereignty - and covering obvious criminals like the Clintons. I think that agenda is becoming increasingly obvious to the rank and file, and I think there is a resentment to it (particularly in the FBI this resentment has been publicized) that has built up to near breaking.

As a result, I think this can be turned around on a dime, if the proper people are put in positions of authority. It is only a little different - a little less nimble - than enforcing policy from the top in the military. Orders from higher ups in both the military and the intelligentsia are nearly equally stridently executed, for fear of reprisal, and both often run counter to the notions of the general personnel.

Trump now possesses the power to reshape these intelligence agencies fairly quickly, and the heavy crossover influence from military to intelligence will expedite the transformation.

That isn't to say that there aren't going to insurrective and sabotaging influences, both still embedded in these agencies and inculcated in the parties, but simply naming new Intel Chiefs will go a very long way in curing what ails us.

If Trump makes the right moves..

Peter1469
01-14-2017, 09:38 AM
Trump has other problems in addition to the IC.

- The bureaucratic state or administrative state. Congress has ceded much of its power to the executive agencies. These organizations are very hard to change. Just think about the problems with the VA.

- Trump lost the popular vote so Congress will have little pressure to bow to his wishes. Unless the republicans unite behind him he may not get much done (which isn't all bad).

MMC
01-14-2017, 09:40 AM
Trump and his supporters are in way, way over their heads.

And the reason for this is simple. Most of them have little to no idea what they're up against or how to combat it.

Ironically enough, much of this is their own fault.

Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups. And for decades conservatives have slavishly deferred to and even championed these agencies as forces of freedom and democracy, insisting that they be given ever-increasing amounts of funding, power, and secrecy. Even Trump himself is guilty of this to some degree, making wildly inaccurate claims about how Obama "depleted" the military and promising to rectify this nonexistent problem by lavishing even more taxpayer money on the military-industrial complex.

The decades of deference and apologia have left conservatives totally ill-equipped to fight this battle, which is why it's only a matter of time before Trump is mollified and his plans for US-Russian detente are severely weakened or reversed.

Naturally, I hope that I'm wrong. Nothing would be better for the world than to see improved relations between two great powers with enough nukes to destroy the planet. But I do not believe conservatives have it in them to take on these agencies because they either do not realize or refuse to admit what kind of evil they are up against.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups.....snip~



Now that you complained about what US agencies have done. What is your answer to the fact......that's fact. That Other countries agencies are doing the same damn thing? What is it you expect to counter with against those agencies? Did you think telling them.....oh you shouldn't do those things. Would work? Did you want to shame them and think this would counter what they are doing. What.....try and arrest them? Take those who operate outside the law and bring them before the law? What goody two shoe answers do you have?

Also Clandestine affairs is quite different than the Military complex. So just how do you bring the MIC into a rant you started with over what Intel Agencies of the US do?

Or do you need to hold the line to your concept with all things are just black and white. What is the difference between a death squad from those who are Communists and those of the US? Do you even know?

Subdermal
01-14-2017, 10:10 AM
Trump has other problems in addition to the IC.

- The bureaucratic state or administrative state. Congress has ceded much of its power to the executive agencies. These organizations are very hard to change. Just think about the problems with the VA.

- Trump lost the popular vote so Congress will have little pressure to bow to his wishes. Unless the republicans unite behind him he may not get much done (which isn't all bad).
I do not believe the popular vote statistic has near as much influence as you believe with those who would cede to Trump's mandate, or contest it.

I think they understand the dynamic of that popular vote: Hillary's popular vote win came from exactly - and only - 2 counties: one in Los Angeles, and one in New York City. Politicians understand that millions of counterbalancing GOP votes stayed home in both NY and CA because of the demographics. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.


These oppositional forces are not going expose themselves to be hoisted on their own petard based upon a lie.

Peter1469
01-14-2017, 10:34 AM
I do not believe the popular vote statistic has near as much influence as you believe with those who would cede to Trump's mandate, or contest it.

I think they understand the dynamic of that popular vote: Hillary's popular vote win came from exactly - and only - 2 counties: one in Los Angeles, and one in New York City. Politicians understand that millions of counterbalancing GOP votes stayed home in both NY and CA because of the demographics. That doesn't mean that they don't exist.


These oppositional forces are not going expose themselves to be hoisted on their own petard based upon a lie.

I was referring to the ability of presidents to get their programs through based on what has happened in the past. Trump's popular vote would suggest that Congress will not feel compelled to roll over.

However, what will matter is the engagement of the citizens going forward. If enough pressure their congressmen to go with Trump's proposals they will.

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 10:40 AM
For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups.....snip~



Now that you complained about what US agencies have done. What is your answer to the fact......that's fact. That Other countries agencies are doing the same damn thing? What is it you expect to counter with against those agencies? Did you think telling them.....oh you shouldn't do those things. Would work? Did you want to shame them and think this would counter what they are doing. What.....try and arrest them? Take those who operate outside the law and bring them before the law? What goody two shoe answers do you have?

Also Clandestine affairs is quite different than the Military complex. So just how do you bring the MIC into a rant you started with over what Intel Agencies of the US do?

Or do you need to hold the line to your concept with all things are just black and white. What is the difference between a death squad from those who are Communists and those of the US? Do you even know?
A perfect example of why you are so ill-equipped to deal with this problem. US intelligence agencies are trying to destroy your president and you're still defending them. You are so far outmatched it's not even funny.

Chris
01-14-2017, 11:03 AM
The intelligence community has long been a political football, but now it too is becoming political. That's dangerous.

MMC
01-14-2017, 11:06 AM
A perfect example of why you are so ill-equipped to deal with this problem. US intelligence agencies are trying to destroy your president and you're still defending them. You are so far outmatched it's not even funny.
Try again.....I caught your Anti American BS while trying to equate it to the Entire IC Community. First off the Entire IC, didn't try to come off with the concept that the Russians were trying to help Trump beat Hillary. Hence the article written up by Binney, former NSA. Moreover, it didn't include any Military Intel.


When did you think Americans were Saints, Angels of Pure Goodness? When did you think that was possible for humans on this planet?


You're so far outmatched with that black and white thinking. That you didn't know there were shades of grey. Just that usual defining pattern of simpleness you come with. While trying to equate it to current events. Its the reason you avoided the questions. While you play on the beginners levels of consciousness.

Peter1469
01-14-2017, 11:34 AM
I believe I posted a book review on Legacy of Ashes (https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-History-Tim-Weiner/dp/0307389006) a while back. Or it could have been a recent book on the same lines of the problems with the CIA.


With shocking revelations that made headlines in papers across the country, Pulitzer-Prize-winner Tim Weiner gets at the truth behind the CIA and uncovers here why nearly every CIA Director has left the agency in worse shape than when he found it; and how these profound failures jeopardize our national security.

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 11:36 AM
Try again.....I caught your Anti American BS while trying to equate it to the Entire IC Community. First off the Entire IC, didn't try to come off with the concept that the Russians were trying to help Trump beat Hillary. Hence the article written up by Binney, former NSA. Moreover, it didn't include any Military Intel.


When did you think Americans were Saints, Angels of Pure Goodness? When did you think that was possible for humans on this planet?


You're so far outmatched with that black and white thinking. That you didn't know there were shades of grey. Just that usual defining pattern of simpleness you come with. While trying to equate it to current events. Its the reason you avoided the questions. While you play on the beginners levels of consciousness.

Like I said, you are out of your depth. You're rushing to the defense of the same agencies who are conspiring against your president. You simply do not have what it takes to win this battle. You should save yourself some time and just admit defeat now, before they really turn up the heat on Trump.

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 11:39 AM
The intelligence community has long been a political football, but now it too is becoming political. That's dangerous.
They've always been political. The CIA has been blackmailing and intimidating US politicians for decades.

Chris
01-14-2017, 11:42 AM
They've always been political. The CIA has been blackmailing and intimidating US politicians for decades.

Wasn't aware of that. The FBI, with J Edgar, yes.

Crepitus
01-14-2017, 11:44 AM
Or of course there's always the simpler explanation that instead of the culmination of a decades long conspiracy to commit evil and fool the American people about it the information they have is true and they are doing their duty as agents of the US intelligence agencies to protect us by presenting it to our leadership.
Occams razor is on my side.

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 11:52 AM
Or of course there's always the simpler explanation that instead of the culmination of a decades long conspiracy to commit evil and fool the American people...

There is ample evidence that the CIA has committed many evil and deceptive acts. You've simply chosen to ignore that evidence.


...about it the information they have is true and they are doing their duty as agents of the US intelligence agencies to protect us by presenting it to our leadership.
Occams razor is on my side.

Occam's razor selects the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions, not the one that is the simplest per se. So your hypothesis, which is based on nothing but assumptions, is clearly ruled out in favor of my hypothesis, which is supported by a mountain of historical evidence cataloging the CIA's many, many nefarious activities, both domestically and abroad.

FindersKeepers
01-14-2017, 11:54 AM
The intelligence community has long been a political football, but now it too is becoming political. That's dangerous.

Right.

While they've been doing it forever, now they seem emboldened and drunk on their own power. They're not even making an effort to hide their agenda.

MMC
01-14-2017, 11:55 AM
Like I said, you are out of your depth. You're rushing to the defense of the same agencies who are conspiring against your president. You simply do not have what it takes to win this battle. You should save yourself some time and just admit defeat now, before they really turn up the heat on Trump.
Yeah Like you said which don't amount to much.....it was the simpleness that gave you away. Then the false equivalency about US agencies and how they have to counter other Countries agencies.


Then trying to use the MIC for support.

Bethere
01-14-2017, 01:20 PM
I think you're right. Having long allied themselves with the intelligence community, conservatives are struggling now to figure out how to counter a vicious and unprecedented spook assault.

And liberals, understandably upset by their recent loss, are getting into bed with anyone who comes up with a $#@!amamie story to delegitimize Trump. They're jumping on any bandwagon, no matter how ridiculous and superficial the accusations might be.

And, Trump might not survive the onslaught. He doesn't know how to -- his supporters can't figure out how to. He's fighting a Twitter war against opponents that overthrow entire political leaderships and wage war wherever they feel like doing so. Chuck Shumer came right out and said that Trump was making a mistake challenging the agencies that have all sorts of ways of destroying lives if they so choose.

On the one hand -- the recent attacks have been so far-fetched that they might result in making some Americans question what lengths the disingenuous anti-Trumpeters will go to. Yet, MSM is in the bag for the intel agencies, and the liberals who once took a firm stand against Deep State tactics, are now supporting them enthusiastically. Journalistic integrity left the building. Anonymous accusations are published as if they were valid news, as the propaganda war revs up.

We've entered the theater of the absurd.

Deep state!

Your friend is regurgitating RT / Kremlin propoganda nearly word for word.

The least he could do is provide a link!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rt.com/op-edge/373493-trump-deep-state-russia-tillerson/&ved=0ahUKEwjBlKn4n8LRAhWFh1QKHdm-AVgQqOcBCCMwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFAQDHnJlPli9TMSvMRyVd4sa9Meg

'Deep State' wins… Trump is being tamed to toe the line RT - 2 days ago

Ethereal
01-14-2017, 01:38 PM
Deep state!

Your friend is regurgitating RT / Kremlin propoganda nearly word for word.

The least he could do is provide a link!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rt.com/op-edge/373493-trump-deep-state-russia-tillerson/&ved=0ahUKEwjBlKn4n8LRAhWFh1QKHdm-AVgQqOcBCCMwAQ&usg=AFQjCNFAQDHnJlPli9TMSvMRyVd4sa9Meg

'Deep State' wins… Trump is being tamed to toe the line RT - 2 days ago
According to the Oxford University Press (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/deep_state), the term "deep state" originated in the 1990's in reference to Turkey.

It's truly amazing how your claims never seems to match up with reality.

MMC
01-14-2017, 01:51 PM
The intelligence community has long been a political football, but now it too is becoming political. That's dangerous.
Now that I can agree with.....and it seems it has become that way even more with the Creation of the DNI. A Bush jr trademark.

Common
01-14-2017, 01:53 PM
That's true. The deference and servility exercised towards US intelligence agencies has been bipartisan. But that does not change the fact that conservatives made their own bed and now have to sleep in it.



This isn't about Republicans and Democrats though. The deep state doesn't care if Democrats suffer politically as a result of this anti-Trump campaign. All they care about is maintaining their position of virtual invincibility within the power structure and it appears as if they are succeeding. It seems like it's only a matter of time before Trump is brought to heel.
Ethereal to understand the "why" US intelligence is the way it is, you have to look at history.
My fathers generation the Greatest Generation never questioned or rarely questioned the govt. That generation still had faith in govt. They were more in awe of the FBI especially with Hoover and the CIA and believed they were paramount to our early warning of impending disaster.

Since they everything has even gotten further out of hand but I can tell you why, I KNOW WHY. The attitude of the people running the organizations hasnt changed, the technology changed and with that gave them far greater capability to screw us then they had before

Bethere
01-14-2017, 02:24 PM
According to the Oxford University Press (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/deep_state), the term "deep state" originated in the 1990's in reference to Turkey.

It's truly amazing how your claims never seems to match up with reality.

Your claim doesn't match with and is an inadequate substitute for mine.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:21 AM
Ethereal to understand the "why" US intelligence is the way it is, you have to look at history.
My fathers generation the Greatest Generation never questioned or rarely questioned the govt. That generation still had faith in govt. They were more in awe of the FBI especially with Hoover and the CIA and believed they were paramount to our early warning of impending disaster.

Since they everything has even gotten further out of hand but I can tell you why, I KNOW WHY. The attitude of the people running the organizations hasnt changed, the technology changed and with that gave them far greater capability to screw us then they had before
Trust me, I know why this is happening, and I know why Trump and his supporters are ill equipped to deal with it. You are basically in the ballpark with your explanation, i.e., decades of slavish deference to the national security state (the military, the intelligence agencies, law enforcement, etc.). Trump has enraged the careerists and the oligarchs who pull the strings at the highest levels in these agencies and they are out to destroy him because of it. But Trump and his supporters cannot respond adequately because they still have a misguided faith in the integrity of those institutions. They believe they can just change some policies, hire some new people, and reach a reasonable compromise with Trump's enemies. Never going to happen. These people play for keeps and they do not compromise. JFK found that out the hard way.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:22 AM
Your claim doesn't match with and is an inadequate substitute for mine.
It's not my claim. It's the Oxford University's claim.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:35 AM
Yeah Like you said which don't amount to much.....it was the simpleness that gave you away. Then the false equivalency about US agencies and how they have to counter other Countries agencies.


Then trying to use the MIC for support.

MMC's posts are becoming more amusing as each day passes. The intelligence agencies are slowly destroying Trump's presidency, just like I said they would. And you're powerless to stop it because you worship the military and the intelligence agencies.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:36 AM
Now that I can agree with.....and it seems it has become that way even more with the Creation of the DNI. A Bush jr trademark.
It was always that way. The fact that you do not know this is proof that you are going to lose this battle, and miserably so.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:39 AM
None of this would be happening right now if Trump hadn't tried to normalize relations with Russia. That one thing more than anything is going to lead to his downfall. Not because he was wrong, but because conflict with Russia is a top priority of the deep state. They cannot justify all their new wars and military spending based on terrorism alone. They need a rival nation-state for that. Russia, having already fulfilled that role for decades, was the obvious choice. So when Trump announced his intention for a detente with Russia and stuck to his guns, he was marked for destruction.

Evmetro
02-15-2017, 11:42 AM
Trump and his supporters are in way, way over their heads.

And the reason for this is simple. Most of them have little to no idea what they're up against or how to combat it.

Ironically enough, much of this is their own fault.

Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups. And for decades conservatives have slavishly deferred to and even championed these agencies as forces of freedom and democracy, insisting that they be given ever-increasing amounts of funding, power, and secrecy. Even Trump himself is guilty of this to some degree, making wildly inaccurate claims about how Obama "depleted" the military and promising to rectify this nonexistent problem by lavishing even more taxpayer money on the military-industrial complex.

The decades of deference and apologia have left conservatives totally ill-equipped to fight this battle, which is why it's only a matter of time before Trump is mollified and his plans for US-Russian detente are severely weakened or reversed.

Naturally, I hope that I'm wrong. Nothing would be better for the world than to see improved relations between two great powers with enough nukes to destroy the planet. But I do not believe conservatives have it in them to take on these agencies because they either do not realize or refuse to admit what kind of evil they are up against.

There are some merits to your post. Trump promised to drain the swamp, but he did not take into consideration what it takes to actually get to the drain valves. Now that he is in the swamp and wading towards the drain valves, he is finding that the swamp is loaded with alligators. He did not take into consideration how hard it would be to get through the alligators.

I suspect that things will get uglier, and that this political civil war will be a fight to the death. America will never be the same, regardless of which side prevails.

The Xl
02-15-2017, 11:46 AM
The intelligence community has long been a political football, but now it too is becoming political. That's dangerous.

They've been political for a really, really long time.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:49 AM
They've been political for a really, really long time.
Indeed, from the very beginning. Every empire in history has had an out of control intelligence apparatus. The CIA has spent decades destroying foreign governments and bending them to their will. Now they will use what they learned abroad on Trump, just like they did to JFK.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 11:59 AM
There are some merits to your post. Trump promised to drain the swamp, but he did not take into consideration what it takes to actually get to the drain valves. Now that he is in the swamp and wading towards the drain valves, he is finding that the swamp is loaded with alligators. He did not take into consideration how hard it would be to get through the alligators.

I suspect that things will get uglier, and that this political civil war will be a fight to the death. America will never be the same, regardless of which side prevails.
Trump promised to drain the swamp while still subscribing to some of its most basic mythologies. For example, his belligerence towards Iran is a product of the same CIA that is trying to bring down his presidency. He is unwittingly regurgitating the lies of the very people who despise him and want to destroy him. He needs to understand that the US government is not really a force for good in the world, but rather evil, and the CIA is at the heart of that evil. They have committed so many evil and enormous crimes that there are too many to list. Deaths squads, torture, assassinations, coups, bribery, blackmail, mind control experimentation, psychological warfare, false flag operations, you name it, they've done it. And now they're taking what they've learned over many decades and applying it to the US government. They are experts at "regime change" and they will treat Trump no differently. They already control the corporate media narratives, so they will have little trouble waging a massive propaganda war on Trump and they have dozens of key politicians in their pockets either as a result of blackmail, bribery, or just coincidence of interests. They have their fingers in every pie.

Ethereal
02-15-2017, 12:01 PM
And also keep in mind that they are spying on the electronic communications of every American at all times. The NSA is tapped into every telecom server and has hacked into every major node in the internet backbone. They are listening to everything and storing it for future use.

Captain Obvious
02-15-2017, 12:14 PM
I think Trump's supporters expect an ideal Republican, of which Trump is neither.

Tahuyaman
02-15-2017, 02:18 PM
I think Trump's supporters expect an ideal Republican, of which Trump is neither.

I don't believe that is true.

I think they expected him to be a president who does not conform to the establishment's rules. His support wasns't a Republican thing. They and Trump himself may have miscalculated how the political establishment would respond to his administration.

Obviously establishment loyalists on both sides want him gone.

Doublejack
02-15-2017, 02:51 PM
The Emperor has no clothes.

birddog
02-15-2017, 03:05 PM
I don't believe that is true.

I think they expected him to be a president who does not conform to the establishment's rules. His support wasns't a Republican thing. They and Trump himself may have miscalculated how the political establishment would respond to his administration.

Obviously establishment loyalists on both sides want him gone.

Good points, and only a biased idiot would not see that Trump and his crew are ten times more prepared and competent than Obama's crew was!

Tahuyaman
02-15-2017, 03:08 PM
Good points, and only a biased idiot would not see that Trump and his crew are ten times more prepared and competent than Obama's crew was!

Obama surrounded himself mostly with like minded ultra left wing academics with no experience outside of their particular bubble.

nic34
02-15-2017, 03:13 PM
Obama surrounded himself mostly with like minded ultra left wing academics with no experience outside of their particular bubble.

Wow, you're something else. Anyone left of Joe Liebermann is "ultra" left to you.

Tahuyaman
02-15-2017, 03:38 PM
Obama surrounded himself mostly with like minded ultra left wing academics with no experience outside of their particular bubble.


Wow, you're something else. Anyone left of Joe Liebermann is "ultra" left to you.


Do you have anything of substance to add or are you just rambling?

nic34
02-15-2017, 05:33 PM
Do you have anything of substance to add or are you just rambling?

Now can you show how all those "ultra left wing academics" are 10 times less qualified than Trumps "crew".

Tahuyaman
02-15-2017, 05:37 PM
Do you have anything of substance to add or are you just rambling?


Now can you show how all those "ultra left wing academics" are 10 times less qualified than Trumps "crew".


Just rambling. Got it.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 05:37 PM
The Emperor has no clothes.
What a wonderful statement! It is so new and refreshing. May I use it from time to time?

It is clear you read at least one book after first grade. Congratulations.

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 05:38 PM
There are no rouge intelligence agencies in the US...

Doublejack
02-15-2017, 06:01 PM
What a wonderful statement! It is so new and refreshing. May I use it from time to time?

It is clear you read at least one book after first grade. Congratulations.

Wish I could say the same

decedent
02-15-2017, 06:04 PM
Republicans need to protect Pence. It doesn't look good for Trump. If both Trump and Pence go down, it will be an unsalvageable disaster. I guess Ryan is next in line, which some Republicans might be fine with, but it's not a question of leadership so much as the bad publicity of a House Speaker having to become President.


Nobody faulted Ford for what Nixon did.



As Trump's personal security adviser, Flynn took his orders from Trump, not Pence. Trump must have been the one who told him to call Russia (several times?) and broker a deal. Who else could it have been?



The upcoming Congressional committee might uncover something even more disturbing. They're not just looking into the fact that calls about sanctions were made, but why they were made. In other words, if there was a deal between Putin and Trump regarding election hacking in exchange for lifting sanctions.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:06 PM
There are no rogue intelligence agencies in the US...
There appear to be two. There may be more. The NSA and CIA appear to be part of the Obama shadow government. They are part of the coup.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:07 PM
Wish I could say the same
I suppose we can wait until after you finish your second book. Do you think you will finish this year?

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 06:07 PM
There appear to be two. There may be more. The NSA and CIA appear to be part of the Obama shadow government. They are part of the coup.
Yet is is the FBI who discovered that Trump aides have had frequent contact with Russian officials.

The coup is in your head.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:08 PM
Republicans need to protect Pence. It doesn't look good for Trump. If both Trump and Pence go down, it will be an unsalvageable disaster. I guess Ryan is next in line, which some Republicans might be fine with, but it's not a question of leadership so much as the bad publicity of a House Speaker having to become President.
Nobody faulted Ford for what Nixon did.
As Trump's personal security adviser, Flynn took his orders from Trump, not Pence. Trump must have been the one who told him to call Russia (several times?) and broker a deal. Who else could it have been?
The upcoming Congressional committee might uncover something even more disturbing. They're not just looking into the fact that calls about sanctions were made, but why they were made. In other words, if there was a deal between Putin and Trump regarding election hacking in exchange for lifting sanctions.
This amuses me. Thanks.

Doublejack
02-15-2017, 06:11 PM
I suppose we can wait until after you finish your second book. Do you think you will finish this year?

Are you 12? Try sticking to the thread topic.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:12 PM
Yet is is the FBI who discovered that Trump aides have had frequent contact with Russian officials.
The coup is in your head.
That is not likely. The NSA gathers communications intelligence with a few exceptions. The CIA dabbles in special cases.

The coup is real. It consists of Obama holdovers, the democratic party, bureaucrats in many of the nearly 500 independent executive agencies, and a few idiot Republicans like McCain and McCain's illegitimate son Lindsay.

I listened to Rush today while bottling wine. He called it the Obama Shadow Government. But you heard it from me first. :grin:

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:13 PM
Are you 12? Try sticking to the thread topic.
I am one month shy of 64. Are you nine?

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 06:14 PM
That is not likely. The NSA gathers communications intelligence with a few exceptions. The CIA dabbles in special cases.

The coup is real. It consists off Obama holdovers, the democratic party, bureaucrats in many of the nearly 500 independent executive agencies, and a few idiot Republicans like McCain and McCain's illegitimate son Lindsay.

Then you're unaware of the details of this story. The people intercepting the calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador were the FBI.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 06:17 PM
Then you're unaware of the details of this story. The people intercepting the calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador were the FBI.
I am sure that is what was reported. Unless they are working an active counterintelligence case it is not likely the FBI is conducting independent communications intelligence gathering. Are you claiming the Obama regime illegally opened counterintelligence spying on the Trump team?

Even then I would not be surprised if the actual collectors weren't NSA. There is little point in duplicating technical capabilities and overlapping targets.

decedent
02-15-2017, 06:18 PM
This amuses me. Thanks.


Are you suggesting that Flynn went rogue and unilaterally decided to negotiate with Russians about sanctions? (Even though it wasn't his job, he didn't have the authority, and he had no personal interest.)


Flynn was told to do it, but by whom. He had only one boss. These are facts, and they aren't "amusing."


The coup is in your head.

I thought I heard something rattling

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 06:18 PM
I am sure that is what was reported. Unless they are working an active counterintelligence case it is not likely the FBI is conducting independent communications intelligence gathering. Are you claiming the Obama regime illegally opened counterintelligence spying on the Trump team?
The FBI was conducting an investigation into alleged Russian involvement in the DNC hacking case. That's how this was discovered.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:14 PM
Are you suggesting that Flynn went rogue and unilaterally decided to negotiate with Russians about sanctions? (Even though it wasn't his job, he didn't have the authority, and he had no personal interest.)
Flynn was told to do it, but by whom. He had only one boss. These are facts, and they aren't "amusing."

I am amused at your wild imaginings. No one negotiated. But let's see the transcripts. After all, whoever leaked the information already burned our intelligence sources and methods.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:19 PM
The FBI was conducting an investigation into alleged Russian involvement in the DNC hacking case. That's how this was discovered.
Sure. And because of that, they were gathering communications intelligence on Republicans and Russians? The excuse sounds like cover for massive illegal spying on Americans. The Obama regime approved spying on the opposition political party. That is probably something a Cuban dictator passed onto Chairman Maobama.

Did the FBI have probable cause to suspect Flynn was coordinating hacking targets with the Russian ambassador? Is it likely the Russsian ambassador would be involved in what may have been Russian military intelligence operations?

Do you realize none of this adds up?

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 07:21 PM
Sure. And because of that, they were gathering communications intelligence on Republicans and Russians? The excuse sounds like cover for massive illegal spying on Americans. The Obama regime approved spying on the opposition political party. That is probably something a Cuban dictator passed onto Chairman Maobama.

Did the FBI have probable cause to suspect Flynn was coordinating hacking targets with the Russian ambassador? Is it likely the Russsian ambassador would be involved in what may have been Russian military intelligence operations?

Do you realize none of this adds up?

It seems you're in the same boat as Flynn...a supposed expert who doesn't know that Russian ambassadors are monitored.

decedent
02-15-2017, 07:24 PM
Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.
1. This is not new. Hoover practically ran Washington for decades.
2. It's not so much the Trump people as the neocons who did this. There was a surge of law enforcement in the conservative 80s that peaked with the creation of the NSA then Homeland Security.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:39 PM
It seems you're in the same boat as Flynn...a supposed expert who doesn't know that Russian ambassadors are monitored.
Flynn was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency. Try not to be a fool.

This is more evidence Flynn did nothing wrong.

This does not add up. I did read on another website that the anti-American AG Lynch was using the FISA courts to spy on the Trump team. More information is required. If it is true Lynch needs to go to prison. Or maybe the American AG Sessions can turn her and bring Obama up for indictment.

decedent
02-15-2017, 07:40 PM
I am amused at your wild imaginings. No one negotiated. But let's see the transcripts. After all, whoever leaked the information already burned our intelligence sources and methods.

The facts are simple: According to credible intelligence sources, Flynn discussed sanctions with Russia. He illegally did it before the administration took office. He's just an adviser and doesn't have authority to engage in international diplomacy. Somebody must have given him that authority. He is Trump's personal adviser and answers to nobody else. Only Trump could have told him to make the calls.


A young child could understand this.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:40 PM
1. This is not new. Hoover practically ran Washington for decades.
2. It's not so much the Trump people as the neocons who did this. There was a surge of law enforcement in the conservative 80s that peaked with the creation of the NSA then Homeland Security.
The National Security Agency was created in 1947.

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 07:42 PM
The National Security Agency was created in 1947.

...actually, 1952.

decedent
02-15-2017, 07:43 PM
The National Security Agency was created in 1947.

Okay, but I'm talking about expanded NSA programs (PRISM, FAIRVIEW, STORMBREW, etc.) that people are now concerned about. And yes, I know that the DHS was created in the 90s but my point, which you didn't get, is that the reactionary social conservationism of the 80s is what made law enforcement so powerful today.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:44 PM
I am amused at your wild imaginings. No one negotiated. But let's see the transcripts. After all, whoever leaked the information already burned our intelligence sources and methods.

The facts are simple: According to credible intelligence sources, Flynn discussed sanctions with Russia. He illegally did it before the administration took office. He's just an adviser and doesn't have authority to engage in international diplomacy. Somebody must have given him that authority. He is Trump's personal adviser and answers to nobody else. Only Trump could have told him to make the calls.
A young child could understand this.
First, officials who have seen the transcripts do not make the claim you did. Everything falls apart after that.
Second, discussing the sanctions is not illegal. I posted the relevant portion of the Logan Act elsewhere. Feel free to review it.
Of course, Flynn worked for Trump. Trump had Flynn setting up meetings with many state leaders.

You have no case.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:46 PM
I know. I'm talking about expanded programs that everyone's talking about. And yes, I know that the DHS was created in the 90s but my point, which you didn't get, is that the reactionary social conservationism of the 80s is what made law enforcement so powerful today.
If it was Conservatism how is it the democratic party holdovers are the ones who are attempting the coup? Conservatives tend to restrain government powers not enhance them.

Thanks for the clarification.

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 07:48 PM
If it was Conservatism how is it the democratic party holdovers are the ones who are attempting the coup? Conservatives tend to restrain government powers not enhance them.

Thanks for the clarification.

What coup?

Who created the Department of Homeland Security and greatly expanded wiretapping?

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:49 PM
...actually, 1952.
You may be right. The national security act was passed in 1947. The sigint assets were in place but not codified within an organization until later.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:50 PM
What coup?
The nonstop attempt to overturn the election since November 8th. The coup that destroyed LTG Flynn.

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 07:53 PM
The nonstop attempt to overturn the election since November 8th. The coup that destroyed LTG Flynn.

Flynn destroyed himself.

I'd recommend that you guys stop playing the victim.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 07:55 PM
Flynn destroyed himself.
Of course, Flynn did not destroy himself. That is nonsense.

decedent
02-15-2017, 07:57 PM
If it was Conservatism how is it the democratic party holdovers are the ones who are attempting the coup?


There's a coup? Do I dare ask for evidence from you?



Conservatives tend to restrain government powers not enhance them.

Thanks for the clarification.

I know that you believe that. Most conservatives do.


I can assure you that it was't liberals who gave local police department MRAPs and tanks. It wasn't liberals who led the charge for the Patriot Act. It wasn't liberals who started the war on drugs. It wasn't liberals who are building a huge wall. It wasn't liberals who want supermax prisons. It wasn't liberals who wasted $1 trillion on the Star Wars project. It wasn't liberals who are pushing for stop-and-frisk. It's not liberals who want the death penalty. It wasn't liberals led the charge for a war in Iraq. It's not liberals who want immigration detention centers.


If law enforcement is getting out of hand, blame yourselves, not liberals.

decedent
02-15-2017, 08:01 PM
I am amused at your wild imaginings. No one negotiated. But let's see the transcripts. After all, whoever leaked the information already burned our intelligence sources and methods.

First, officials who have seen the transcripts do not make the claim you did. Everything falls apart after that.
Second, discussing the sanctions is not illegal. I posted the relevant portion of the Logan Act elsewhere. Feel free to review it.
Of course, Flynn worked for Trump. Trump had Flynn setting up meetings with many state leaders.

You have no case.

The calls were about sanctions. I stated this. You failed to read it.


Who told Flynn to call Russia to discuss sanctions? Why would sanctions even be discussed? It appears as if there may have been a deal made between Trump and Putin.


And yes, discussing sanctions is illegal if it violates the law.... obviously. The Logan Act is important. What's to prevent any random citizen from engaging in foreign affairs with other nations on behalf of America?

Common Sense
02-15-2017, 08:02 PM
Of course, Flynn did not destroy himself. That is nonsense.
Was he forced to lie to Pence? Was he forced to contact the Russian ambassador?

Peter1469
02-15-2017, 09:39 PM
Then you're unaware of the details of this story. The people intercepting the calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador were the FBI.

It was the NSA. They shared the raw intel with the FBI.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 10:31 PM
The calls were about sanctions. I stated this. You failed to read it.
People who claimed to have read the transcripts do not agree with you.

Who told Flynn to call Russia to discuss sanctions? Why would sanctions even be discussed?
What does "discuss sanctions" mean?


It appears as if there may have been a deal made between Trump and Putin.
What deal do you believe was made?

And yes, discussing sanctions is illegal if it violates the law.... obviously. The Logan Act is important. What's to prevent any random citizen from engaging in foreign affairs with other nations on behalf of America?
Discussing sanctions, whatever that means, is not illegal.

The Logan Act cannot be all that important based on its history.

Flynn was not a random citizen nor was he engaged in foreign affairs.

I believe your claims break down on every point.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 10:32 PM
Was he forced to lie to Pence? Was he forced to contact the Russian ambassador?
I do not believe Flynn lied to Pence. Contacting the Russian ambassador is a reasonable thing for an incoming national security advisor to do.

MisterVeritis
02-15-2017, 10:36 PM
There's a coup? Do I dare ask for evidence from you?
Sure. The leaks from the senior officials in the intelligence community were intended to bring down someone high in Trump's inner circle. The coup plotters are trying to nullify the election.
"Conservatives tend to restrain government powers not enhance them."

I know that you believe that. Most conservatives do.
That is the whole point of the Constitution.

I can assure you that it was't liberals who gave local police department MRAPs and tanks. It wasn't liberals who led the charge for the Patriot Act. It wasn't liberals who started the war on drugs. It wasn't liberals who are building a huge wall. It wasn't liberals who want supermax prisons. It wasn't liberals who wasted $1 trillion on the Star Wars project. It wasn't liberals who are pushing for stop-and-frisk. It's not liberals who want the death penalty. It wasn't liberals led the charge for a war in Iraq. It's not liberals who want immigration detention centers.
But it was liberals who breached the Constitution making many of these other things possible.

If law enforcement is getting out of hand, blame yourselves, not liberals.
It is the Federal government that is out of control.

Dr. Who
02-15-2017, 11:13 PM
I agree in principle, but disagree in one important respect. The typical intelligence agent is ideologically more similar to military personnel than different. Their roles and activities, however, are nearly exclusively formed from the top, and the top - regardless the Party occupying the White House - appears to have been driven by Establishment politics. That means the heavy interventionism and geo-political manipulation to congeal power in a centralized manner (Brussels) while using American taxpayer money to do so, both working against our interests, our borders; our sovereignty - and covering obvious criminals like the Clintons. I think that agenda is becoming increasingly obvious to the rank and file, and I think there is a resentment to it (particularly in the FBI this resentment has been publicized) that has built up to near breaking.

As a result, I think this can be turned around on a dime, if the proper people are put in positions of authority. It is only a little different - a little less nimble - than enforcing policy from the top in the military. Orders from higher ups in both the military and the intelligentsia are nearly equally stridently executed, for fear of reprisal, and both often run counter to the notions of the general personnel.

Trump now possesses the power to reshape these intelligence agencies fairly quickly, and the heavy crossover influence from military to intelligence will expedite the transformation.

That isn't to say that there aren't going to insurrective and sabotaging influences, both still embedded in these agencies and inculcated in the parties, but simply naming new Intel Chiefs will go a very long way in curing what ails us.

If Trump makes the right moves..
For what it's worth, the latest info released indicates that Trump campaign staff were in contact with Russian government agents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html?_r=0

resister
02-15-2017, 11:15 PM
OHHH, just hit that reset button! :laugh: You can buy one at staples, made in china!

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:19 AM
There are no rouge intelligence agencies in the US...
I'm sure you want to believe that, but it's contradicted by mountains of evidence, both historical and contemporary.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:22 AM
There appear to be two. There may be more. The NSA and CIA appear to be part of the Obama shadow government. They are part of the coup.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You think this is about Obama and Democrats. It's not. They are just followers and opportunists. The real power behind the throne are unelected deep state actors who are accountable to no one but themselves. They have no partisan loyalties. If you fail to understand this, you will be crushed.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:24 AM
Then you're unaware of the details of this story. The people intercepting the calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador were the FBI.
Probably under the aegis of the NSA. They are the signals intelligence behemoth.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:30 AM
1. This is not new. Hoover practically ran Washington for decades.

I know it's not new. Trump supporters seem to think it is. But the intelligence community has been running the government since the forties at least. They are the real power behind the thrown. They've perfected the art of "regime change" in dozens of countries across the globe and now they're applying those lessons to the US government in order to derail a possible detente with Russia. Trump supporters don't really get this and, in fact, have contributed to the nearly invincible position of the national security state, which is why this is all so ironic. They helped create this monster and now they're basically powerless to stop it from derailing Trump's presidency.


2. It's not so much the Trump people as the neocons who did this. There was a surge of law enforcement in the conservative 80s that peaked with the creation of the NSA then Homeland Security.

The NSA was created in the early 1950's. And it's been a bipartisan effort the whole way.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:35 AM
Conservatives tend to restrain government powers not enhance them.

Simply not true. So-called "conservatives" are the Frankensteins who enshrined this monster into its present position. You are a perfect example of the kind of "conservative" who thinks the US government and its military and intelligence organs are a force for good in the world. That's why you accuse me of being "anti-American" and such whenever I criticize their operations overseas. Now you are getting a taste of how foreign people feel when the US government's military and intelligence complex target their political leadership for destruction. How does it feel?

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:37 AM
There's a coup? Do I dare ask for evidence from you?




I know that you believe that. Most conservatives do.


I can assure you that it was't liberals who gave local police department MRAPs and tanks. It wasn't liberals who led the charge for the Patriot Act. It wasn't liberals who started the war on drugs. It wasn't liberals who are building a huge wall. It wasn't liberals who want supermax prisons. It wasn't liberals who wasted $1 trillion on the Star Wars project. It wasn't liberals who are pushing for stop-and-frisk. It's not liberals who want the death penalty. It wasn't liberals led the charge for a war in Iraq. It's not liberals who want immigration detention centers.


If law enforcement is getting out of hand, blame yourselves, not liberals.
You're right. It wasn't liberals. It was Democrats and Republicans in a bipartisan effort. The fact that many Democrats call themselves "liberals" is merely an Orwellian attempt to obfuscate their authoritarian tendencies.

Peter1469
02-16-2017, 08:58 AM
That has to be verified. The MSM, to include the Times has published lots of fake news since the election. This verification would include not only the contact, but the substance of the contact.



For what it's worth, the latest info released indicates that Trump campaign staff were in contact with Russian government agents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html?_r=0

Peter1469
02-16-2017, 08:59 AM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You think this is about Obama and Democrats. It's not. They are just followers and opportunists. The real power behind the throne are unelected deep state actors who are accountable to no one but themselves. They have no partisan loyalties. If you fail to understand this, you will be crushed.
^^^^

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 09:06 AM
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You think this is about Obama and Democrats. It's not. They are just followers and opportunists. The real power behind the throne are unelected deep state actors who are accountable to no one but themselves. They have no partisan loyalties. If you fail to understand this, you will be crushed.
It is about Obama, Rhodes, Clapper, Brennan, Schumer, and others. So yes, it is about the Democrats. The Democratic Party is the party of massive, unaccountable government. In this case your deep state. Of course, they have partisan loyalties. Nearly all are Democrats who support having democrats in power.

I heard this morning Trump has appointed someone to head an assessment of the entire intelligence community to determine what must be done to fix it. I believe the only fix is to destroy the organizations and then to start all over.

We do not have to agree. And very likely we won't.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 09:10 AM
Probably under the aegis of the NSA. They are the signals intelligence behemoth.
Not only that the story changes based on who is telling it. The version I believe is the one with the NSA collecting. A second version says the Obama regime's FBI opened counterintelligence investigations against the members of the Trump election team. If so this is what authoritarian regimes do. They use the state's intelligence arm to spy on political opponents. Everyone involved up to and including the FISA judge should be exposed, tried and put in prison if this is true.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 09:15 AM
Simply not true. So-called "conservatives" are the Frankensteins who enshrined this monster into its present position. You are a perfect example of the kind of "conservative" who thinks the US government and its military and intelligence organs are a force for good in the world. That's why you accuse me of being "anti-American" and such whenever I criticize their operations overseas. Now you are getting a taste of how foreign people feel when the US government's military and intelligence complex target their political leadership for destruction. How does it feel?
I sometimes forget that not everyone is a Constitutional Conservative.

Conservatives are seldom in power positions. This monster, as you call it has its roots in our WWII wartime socialism's success.

Yes. I do believe you are virulently anti-American. I know you disagree with essentially all of our foreign policy. Okay.

This coup is domestic. I do not expect you to see the difference.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 09:17 AM
For what it's worth, the latest info released indicates that Trump campaign staff were in contact with Russian government agents.

That has to be verified. The MSM, to include the Times has published lots of fake news since the election. This verification would include not only the contact, but the substance of the contact.
Don't be deceived. The campaign staff means those who have done business with the Russians for some time and then became part of Trump's campaign staff. Note the evil twist in the story. The Leftmedia are part of the coup.

AeonPax
02-16-2017, 09:27 AM
`
`
Here's how I see it. "Drain the swamp".....it's both an idiom and a metaphor, depending on how you use it. I don't trust nor vote for politicians who use "idioms and a metaphors" in place of well articulated ideas and concrete facts.

Peter1469
02-16-2017, 09:46 AM
Right. That is why I said you can't believe the NYTs. Don't take them at their "word."
For what it's worth, the latest info released indicates that Trump campaign staff were in contact with Russian government agents.

Don't be deceived. The campaign staff means those who have done business with the Russians for some time and then became part of Trump's campaign staff. Note the evil twist in the story. The Leftmedia are part of the coup.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 10:38 AM
For what it's worth, the latest info released indicates that Trump campaign staff were in contact with Russian government agents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html?_r=0
"Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump (http://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/donald-trump?inline=nyt-per)’s 2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials."

This tells me the Obama regime's coup planning started during the nomination process. It also tells me the ones behind the coup used the powerful intelligence apparatus of the nation to spy on its political opposition, just like any third word, authoritarian tyranny would. And finally, several members of Trump's team had longstanding business arrangements with Russia.

We do need a comprehensive investigation into how high this coup reaches. I believe it will implicate Obama along with Rhodes, Brennan, and Clapper.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 02:00 PM
I sometimes forget that not everyone is a Constitutional Conservative.

Except you're not a constitutional conservative. You're an apologist for empire. The founders believed in non-interventionism, the exact opposite of your foreign policy ideology.


Conservatives are seldom in power positions. This monster, as you call it has its roots in our WWII wartime socialism's success.

True conservatives, sure. But you're not a true conservative. You're just a neo-con who likes low taxes.


Yes. I do believe you are virulently anti-American. I know you disagree with essentially all of our foreign policy. Okay.

I disagree with empire and foreign entanglements, just like the founding fathers did. How that is "anti-American" you've yet to explain.


This coup is domestic. I do not expect you to see the difference.

That was my point. When it happens to you, you resent it and want to retaliate. But when it happens to a foreign society, you become an apologist who tries to justify it because you lack empathy and moral foundation.

The Xl
02-16-2017, 02:03 PM
Trump is probably going down, but the infighting has basically exposed the joke our system is. For that, he's a hero of sorts, even if he was over his head and didn't have pure intentions. Hope the country does something with this new found awareness going forward.

Peter1469
02-16-2017, 02:24 PM
Trump isn't going down. What the Establishment fails to see is that only a tiny minority of people care about politics. Right track wrong track polling is pretty high on right track considering the coup attempt led by the Deep State and the MSM.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 02:29 PM
Greenwald: Empowering the "Deep State" to Undermine Trump is Prescription for Destroying Democracy (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/16/greenwald_empowering_the_deep_state_to)

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 02:35 PM
How utterly ironic this all is.

The "Democratic" party is cheering on an unelected, democratically unaccountable deep state, and Trumpian nationalists are fighting for their political lives against the very institutions they empowered over so many years of slavish deference.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 02:38 PM
Except you're not a constitutional conservative. You're an apologist for empire. The founders believed in non-interventionism, the exact opposite of your foreign policy ideology.
I do not know how you could get things so wrong. But you have.

The Founders gave the Congress and the Executive branch broad powers for dealing with the real world. Despite their non-intervention beliefs, they took the fight to the Islamofascists of their day. They understood quite well that Washington could not have won the revolution without our collaboration with France. You read their words but you failed to understand them. It happens.

True conservatives, sure. But you're not a true conservative. You're just a neo-con who likes low taxes.
I do not know what a true conservative is. I do not know what a neo-con is. I do know what a Constitutional Conservative is.

I do believe you are virulently anti-American. I know you disagree with essentially all of our foreign policy. Okay.

I disagree with empire and foreign entanglements, just like the founding fathers did. How that is "anti-American" you've yet to explain.
We can agree to disagree about the role foreign policy does play or should play. You may have read some of what our Founders wrote but you do not understand what the Constitution allows.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 02:52 PM
I do not know how you could get things so wrong. But you have.

The Founders gave the Congress and the Executive branch broad powers for dealing with the real world. Despite their non-intervention beliefs, they took the fight to the Islamofascists of their day. They understood quite well that Washington could not have won the revolution without our collaboration with France. You read their words but you failed to understand them. It happens.

There is a big difference between temporary alliances/defending yourself from pirates and creating a massive, sprawling military empire.


I do not know what a true conservative is. I do not know what a neo-con is. I do know what a Constitutional Conservative is.

A true conservative is someone who wants to conserve the republican principles of the founding fathers. Since you're an apologist for empire, which is the enemy of all true republics, you cannot be a true conservative.


We can agree to disagree about the role foreign policy does play or should play. You may have read some of what our Founders wrote but you do not understand what the Constitution allows.

You still haven't explained how opposition to empire is "anti-American".

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 02:53 PM
This coup is domestic. I do not expect you to see the difference.

That was my point. When it happens to you, you resent it and want to retaliate. But when it happens to a foreign society, you become an apologist who tries to justify it because you lack empathy and moral foundation.
As expected you fail to see the difference.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 02:57 PM
Trump is probably going down, but the infighting has basically exposed the joke our system is. For that, he's a hero of sorts, even if he was over his head and didn't have pure intentions. Hope the country does something with this new found awareness going forward.
Do we live in two different countries?

Trump is fine. I think he made a mistake firing Flynn. But I do not see any real problems.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 02:57 PM
As expected you fail to see the difference.

I do see the difference. Now it's happening to you instead of some faceless foreigner. Now maybe you will know how other countries feel when the US government targets their governments for destruction.

Ethereal
02-16-2017, 03:00 PM
Do we live in two different countries?

Trump is fine. I think he made a mistake firing Flynn. But I do not see any real problems.

Trump is obviously not fine. He hasn't been in office for a month yet and he's already lost one of his top advisers. And it was orchestrated by his enemies in the deep state. If they were playing chess, that would be like losing a rook in four moves. That does not bode well for his future.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 03:59 PM
The Founders gave the Congress and the Executive branch broad powers for dealing with the real world. Despite their non-intervention beliefs, they took the fight to the Islamofascists of their day. They understood quite well that Washington could not have won the revolution without our collaboration with France. You read their words but you failed to understand them. It happens.

There is a big difference between temporary alliances/defending yourself from pirates and creating a massive, sprawling military empire.
Can you show me in the Constitution where the Federal government has sufficient authority for one but not the other?

You object to our foreign policy. It is clear (to me) that the Federal government has all the authority it needs to conduct the foreign policy it sees as correct.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 04:03 PM
I do not know what a true conservative is. I do not know what a neo-con is. I do know what a Constitutional Conservative is.

A true conservative is someone who wants to conserve the republican principles of the founding fathers. Since you're an apologist for empire, which is the enemy of all true republics, you cannot be a true conservative.

Well, okay. Now I know what your definition of a true conservative is. It seems as if your term is far squishier than Constitutional Conservative. How much of the thousands of pages of writings from the various Founders must one agree with in order to be a True Conservative?

One need only support and defend the Constitution as written and amended to be a Constitutional Conservative. I have something to measure against. It seems to me that you just have a feeling to measure against.

What do you believe a neo-con is?

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 04:05 PM
We can agree to disagree about the role foreign policy does play or should play. You may have read some of what our Founders wrote but you do not understand what the Constitution allows.

You still haven't explained how opposition to empire is "anti-American".
Your opposition to our foreign policy is fine. You go overboard. I can back off. It is no big deal.

MisterVeritis
02-16-2017, 04:07 PM
Trump is obviously not fine. He hasn't been in office for a month yet and he's already lost one of his top advisers. And it was orchestrated by his enemies in the deep state. If they were playing chess, that would be like losing a rook in four moves. That does not bode well for his future.
Trump is in a war. He gets it. The enemy gets a vote and gets to attack. Now Trump is on the offensive against the media and the intelligence community.

He will be fine. We will be fine.

Ethereal
02-18-2017, 12:05 PM
The Deep State Targets Trump (http://buchanan.org/blog/deep-state-targets-trump-126550)

Thursday - February 16, 2017 at 9:34 pm

By Patrick J. Buchanan

When Gen. Michael Flynn was forced to resign as national security adviser, Bill Kristol purred his satisfaction, “If it comes to it, prefer the deep state to the Trump state.”

To Kristol, the permanent regime, not the elected president and his government, is the real defender and rightful repository of our liberties.

Yet it was this regime, the deep state, that carried out what Eli Lake of Bloomberg calls “The Political Assassination of Michael Flynn.”

And what were Flynn’s offenses?

In December, when Barack Obama expelled 35 Russian diplomats, Flynn spoke to the Russian ambassador. He apparently counseled the envoy not to overreact, saying a new team would be in place in a few weeks and would review U.S.-Russian relations.

“That’s neither illegal nor improper,” writes Lake.

Vladimir Putin swiftly declared that there would be no reciprocal expulsions and U.S. diplomats and their families would be welcome at the Kremlin’s Christmas and New Year’s parties.

Diplomatic crisis averted. “Great move … (by V. Putin),” tweeted Trump, “I always knew he was very smart.”

But apparently, this did not sit well with the deep state.

For when Vice President Pence told a TV show that Flynn told him that sanctions did not come up in conversation with the Russian ambassador, a transcript of Flynn’s call was produced from recordings by intelligence agencies, and its contents leaked to The Washington Post.

After seeing the transcript, the White House concluded that Flynn had misled Pence, mutual trust was gone, and Flynn must go.

Like a good soldier, Flynn took the bullet.

The real crime here, however, is not that the incoming national security adviser spoke with a Russian diplomat seeking guidance on the future president’s thinking. The real crime is the criminal conspiracy inside the deep state to transcribe the private conversation of a U.S. citizen and leak it to press collaborators to destroy a political career...

Pat Buchanan details the ongoing attempt by the deep state to overthrow the President.

Newpublius
02-18-2017, 12:08 PM
Trump and his supporters are in way, way over their heads.

And the reason for this is simple. Most of them have little to no idea what they're up against or how to combat it.

Ironically enough, much of this is their own fault.

Because the rogue intelligence agencies who are presently attempting to discredit and ruin Trump's presidency before he even assumes office are the same agencies that Trumpian conservatives have helped to enshrine in their nearly untouchable position.

For decades, these agencies have engaged in rampant criminality across the globe, overseeing death squads, torture, assassinations, psychological warfare, drug trafficking, human experimentation, bribery, and countless coups. And for decades conservatives have slavishly deferred to and even championed these agencies as forces of freedom and democracy, insisting that they be given ever-increasing amounts of funding, power, and secrecy. Even Trump himself is guilty of this to some degree, making wildly inaccurate claims about how Obama "depleted" the military and promising to rectify this nonexistent problem by lavishing even more taxpayer money on the military-industrial complex.

The decades of deference and apologia have left conservatives totally ill-equipped to fight this battle, which is why it's only a matter of time before Trump is mollified and his plans for US-Russian detente are severely weakened or reversed.

Naturally, I hope that I'm wrong. Nothing would be better for the world than to see improved relations between two great powers with enough nukes to destroy the planet. But I do not believe conservatives have it in them to take on these agencies because they either do not realize or refuse to admit what kind of evil they are up against.

Ethereal. Seems to me I'm going to make the daily sojourn to cubicle city either way. How am I in over my head?

Ethereal
02-18-2017, 01:38 PM
Ethereal. Seems to me I'm going to make the daily sojourn to cubicle city either way. How am I in over my head?
Some aren't, most are.

Ethereal
04-10-2017, 03:59 PM
This thread seems somewhat prophetic now that Trump has submitted to the neocons and attacked Syria.