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View Full Version : 2nd tPF Town Hall 02/04-05/2017



Chris
02-01-2017, 07:16 PM
Announcing the 2nd tPF Town Hall 02/04-05/2017. So get you thoughts, ideas, opinions, feedback, paise, complaints together.

Chris
02-04-2017, 07:54 AM
OK, so let's open this up to discussion. Forum rules apply. Remember the topic is the forum, not any specific moderation action or grievance, and not any particular member. And try to keep negative criticism constructive.

So, since tPF Town Hall 12/10-11/2016 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/74720-tPF-Town-Hall-12-10-11-2016), we have made the following changes:

1 Brought on new mod Ravens Fan! But we're still stretched thin and looking for good mods. Send us a PM if yo're interested.
2 Implemented stricter moderation of On the Serious Side -- see rule 11.
3 Harsher moderation of repeat offenders including some bans.
4 More aggressive moderation of trolling with warnings, TBs and even infractions.
5 Recently decided to start tracking all warnings and TBs for trolling, not just infractions.
6 ...

Peter1469
02-04-2017, 08:26 AM
Create a latest happenings, politics, and world affairs on the serious side.

Chris
02-04-2017, 08:33 AM
Create a latest happenings, politics, and world affairs on the serious side.

Think that would be a good idea.

Captain Obvious
02-04-2017, 10:07 AM
Serious side the main forum with all the relavant sub forums, create a "play pen" area with a handful of sub forums for the monkeys.

Chris
02-04-2017, 10:47 AM
Serious side the main forum with all the relavant sub forums, create a "play pen" area with a handful of sub forums for the monkeys.

So re-organize with On the Serious Side on top and Politics and News on the bottom?

Peter1469
02-04-2017, 10:48 AM
I think he means make the entire existing forum OTSS and then create some play pens for the "monkeys"- although the Hole could be that.

Captain Obvious
02-04-2017, 11:34 AM
I think he means make the entire existing forum OTSS and then create some play pens for the "monkeys"- although the Hole could be that.

Sort of but keep the hole whole, for the really hole-worthy stuff.

But otherwise, yes.

Cletus
02-04-2017, 12:09 PM
The moderation policies of this forum are really the worst I have seen in a very long time. That is not the fault of the moderators (unless they are the ones writing them), but it affects discourse and not in a positive way.

Example... Apparently it is okay for a moderator to come along AFTER a mod has taken action and decide that wasn't sufficient and stack some other punishment on top of the first action. That is just ridiculous. It is no different from a judge reviewing a sentence issued by another judge and deciding it wasn't harsh enough and tacking additional time on top of it.

Actions taken by moderators should be done in a timely manner. Showing up hours after a post is put up and deciding to take action over it is counterproductive. By then, discussion has moved on and people aren't even thinking about it anymore. That is like beating a dog or a child for something he did hours before. The world has moved on. The Mods need to keep up.

Moderators here tend to focus on the things that don't matter and ignore the things that do. They will issue an infraction or warning to a poster for insulting someone, but they seldom if ever give any thought to what precipitated the insult. Was it a response to something someone else said? Was it said to strictly to demean another poster? Was it said in jest? Those can all be very different things. Instead of examining context, the mods just look at the words. That is not only poor moderation, it indicates an intellectual deficiency on the part of the person doing so.

When moderators are asked why a particular action was taken, they need to respond. The poster doesn't need and in most cases doesn't want a response from a different mod from the one who took the action. He wants and should get a response from the one who issued the warning or the infraction or the ban or whatever.

This is a political discussion board. As long as people have engaged in political debate, rhetoric has often become heated. It is the nature of the beast. People don't come here for tea and crumpets. They come here to express themselves on the political and social issues of the day. In the vast majority of cases, if left alone, heated rhetoric cools off in short order and discussions continue. There is an old saying (a variant on the famous Thoreau quote) that goes "The government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves". There is much truth to that. We are mostly adults here. Moderators should stay out of the way and let discussions flow as they will, unless they get totally off track or degenerate to the point where productive discussion is no longer happening. One poster calling another a dumb ass (or something equivalent) is not just cause for a mod to jump in and issue a warning. If it happens repeatedly and the discussion becomes a personal battle with the insults outweighing the productive, on topic posts, that is a different matter. Mods need to learn that.

There also needs a be a subforum or some public, not hidden, area on the forum where moderation can be discussed. Restrict it to a single thread or create its own forum, but it needs to exist. Rule 9 is stupid. Mods screw up like anyone else. The difference when they do it, it has an impact on the forum. People need to be able to express differences of opinion about moderation decisions and it needs to be done where all can participate, not in some secret dungeon where no one has any idea what is being said or if the criticisms and suggestions are being considered at all.

resister
02-04-2017, 12:09 PM
Perhaps, after 3 exiles, permanent ban?

Chris
02-04-2017, 12:22 PM
Perhaps, after 3 exiles, permanent ban?

Pretty much so, yes. If warnings and TBs don't work, we start infracting, after a few of those, 24 hour temp ban, then 3 day temp ban, then 7 day temp ban, then perma ban. If needed we can escalate that. But the idea is to give ample warning so member can change.

Chris
02-04-2017, 12:35 PM
The moderation policies of this forum are really the worst I have seen in a very long time. That is not the fault of the moderators (unless they are the ones writing them), but it affects discourse and not in a positive way.

Example... Apparently it is okay for a moderator to come along AFTER a mod has taken action and decide that wasn't sufficient and stack some other punishment on top of the first action. That is just ridiculous. It is no different from a judge reviewing a sentence issued by another judge and deciding it wasn't harsh enough and tacking additional time on top of it.

Actions taken by moderators should be done in a timely manner. Showing up hours after a post is put up and deciding to take action over it is counterproductive. By then, discussion has moved on and people aren't even thinking about it anymore. That is like beating a dog or a child for something he did hours before. The world has moved on. The Mods need to keep up.

Moderators here tend to focus on the things that don't matter and ignore the things that do. They will issue an infraction or warning to a poster for insulting someone, but they seldom if ever give any thought to what precipitated the insult. Was it a response to something someone else said? Was it said to strictly to demean another poster? Was it said in jest? Those can all be very different things. Instead of examining context, the mods just look at the words. That is not only poor moderation, it indicates an intellectual deficiency on the part of the person doing so.

When moderators are asked why a particular action was taken, they need to respond. The poster doesn't need and in most cases doesn't want a response from a different mod from the one who took the action. He wants and should get a response from the one who issued the warning or the infraction or the ban or whatever.

This is a political discussion board. As long as people have engaged in political debate, rhetoric has often become heated. It is the nature of the beast. People don't come here for tea and crumpets. They come here to express themselves on the political and social issues of the day. In the vast majority of cases, if left alone, heated rhetoric cools off in short order and discussions continue. There is an old saying (a variant on the famous Thoreau quote) that goes "The government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves". There is much truth to that. We are mostly adults here. Moderators should stay out of the way and let discussions flow as they will, unless they get totally off track or degenerate to the point where productive discussion is no longer happening. One poster calling another a dumb ass (or something equivalent) is not just cause for a mod to jump in and issue a warning. If it happens repeatedly and the discussion becomes a personal battle with the insults outweighing the productive, on topic posts, that is a different matter. Mods need to learn that.

There also needs a be a subforum or some public, not hidden, area on the forum where moderation can be discussed. Restrict it to a single thread or create its own forum, but it needs to exist. Rule 9 is stupid. Mods screw up like anyone else. The difference when they do it, it has an impact on the forum. People need to be able to express differences of opinion about moderation decisions and it needs to be done where all can participate, not in some secret dungeon where no one has any idea what is being said or if the criticisms and suggestions are being considered at all.




Apparently it is okay for a moderator to come along AFTER a mod has taken action and decide that wasn't sufficient and stack some other punishment on top of the first action.

Yes. We work as team and team will review actions taken and may decide more action is needed. The previous action is usually retracted when you're infracted. And vice versa we sometimes decide no action was required and retract it.



Actions taken by moderators should be done in a timely manner.

We try to act as soon as possible. But we're members and, believe it or not, we have real lives outside the forum. Today I'm redoing a bathroom floor.



Moderators here tend to focus on the things that don't matter and ignore the things that do.

Everyone sees things differently, that's why we act as a team, if not in initial action, in review. This lends some objectivity. In the end it's a judgment call.



When moderators are asked why a particular action was taken, they need to respond.

We should do a better job of that with actions that you all report. We try, but...will try harder. As far as i know if you PM a mod you will get a response. If nt, we need to work on that then too.

Note that usually two or mods decide an action so any mod responding should be OK.



This is a political discussion board....

Well, this is a tough one. Some people come for serious discussion without personal animosity, some like more heated discussion, and, of course, some like to troll. We try to allow for the first two. The ideas Peter and Captain suggest might help to separate the two.



There also needs a be a subforum or some public, not hidden, area on the forum where moderation can be discussed....

We have an arbitration area for that but rarely see the need to use it. You are free to report actions, to PM any mod or even ADMIN with grievances and complaints.

Captain Obvious
02-04-2017, 12:50 PM
The moderation policies of this forum are really the worst I have seen in a very long time. That is not the fault of the moderators (unless they are the ones writing them), but it affects discourse and not in a positive way.

Example... Apparently it is okay for a moderator to come along AFTER a mod has taken action and decide that wasn't sufficient and stack some other punishment on top of the first action. That is just ridiculous. It is no different from a judge reviewing a sentence issued by another judge and deciding it wasn't harsh enough and tacking additional time on top of it.

Actions taken by moderators should be done in a timely manner. Showing up hours after a post is put up and deciding to take action over it is counterproductive. By then, discussion has moved on and people aren't even thinking about it anymore. That is like beating a dog or a child for something he did hours before. The world has moved on. The Mods need to keep up.

Moderators here tend to focus on the things that don't matter and ignore the things that do. They will issue an infraction or warning to a poster for insulting someone, but they seldom if ever give any thought to what precipitated the insult. Was it a response to something someone else said? Was it said to strictly to demean another poster? Was it said in jest? Those can all be very different things. Instead of examining context, the mods just look at the words. That is not only poor moderation, it indicates an intellectual deficiency on the part of the person doing so.

When moderators are asked why a particular action was taken, they need to respond. The poster doesn't need and in most cases doesn't want a response from a different mod from the one who took the action. He wants and should get a response from the one who issued the warning or the infraction or the ban or whatever.

This is a political discussion board. As long as people have engaged in political debate, rhetoric has often become heated. It is the nature of the beast. People don't come here for tea and crumpets. They come here to express themselves on the political and social issues of the day. In the vast majority of cases, if left alone, heated rhetoric cools off in short order and discussions continue. There is an old saying (a variant on the famous Thoreau quote) that goes "The government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves". There is much truth to that. We are mostly adults here. Moderators should stay out of the way and let discussions flow as they will, unless they get totally off track or degenerate to the point where productive discussion is no longer happening. One poster calling another a dumb ass (or something equivalent) is not just cause for a mod to jump in and issue a warning. If it happens repeatedly and the discussion becomes a personal battle with the insults outweighing the productive, on topic posts, that is a different matter. Mods need to learn that.

There also needs a be a subforum or some public, not hidden, area on the forum where moderation can be discussed. Restrict it to a single thread or create its own forum, but it needs to exist. Rule 9 is stupid. Mods screw up like anyone else. The difference when they do it, it has an impact on the forum. People need to be able to express differences of opinion about moderation decisions and it needs to be done where all can participate, not in some secret dungeon where no one has any idea what is being said or if the criticisms and suggestions are being considered at all.

Cletus - in fairness to the mods, they can't be everywhere at all times, they're going to miss stuff, and in the spirit of the current "lightly modded" forum, I think (they can correct me if I'm speaking out of context) they generally don't moderate unless something is reported or just way off base.

That's why it's emphasized to report posts.

Chris
02-04-2017, 01:06 PM
True, we work mainly off reports and only occasionally, as needed, act on our own, and even then, it's by report and discussed and reviewed.

Chris
02-04-2017, 01:12 PM
Create a latest happenings, politics, and world affairs on the serious side.


Serious side the main forum with all the relavant sub forums, create a "play pen" area with a handful of sub forums for the monkeys.


These design changes fall to the purview of VIPs. They can be discussed here, but will have to be taken to VIPs. If, as in the case of Cap, the idea comes from a non-VIP, I think you should be allowed to join the VIPs for discussion on it.

Subdermal
02-04-2017, 02:38 PM
Put me in control of your forum for 2 weeks. I'll fix it completely.

Docthehun
02-04-2017, 03:21 PM
Yea, right.

Green Arrow
02-04-2017, 03:36 PM
The moderation policies of this forum are really the worst I have seen in a very long time. That is not the fault of the moderators (unless they are the ones writing them), but it affects discourse and not in a positive way.

Example... Apparently it is okay for a moderator to come along AFTER a mod has taken action and decide that wasn't sufficient and stack some other punishment on top of the first action. That is just ridiculous. It is no different from a judge reviewing a sentence issued by another judge and deciding it wasn't harsh enough and tacking additional time on top of it.

Actions taken by moderators should be done in a timely manner. Showing up hours after a post is put up and deciding to take action over it is counterproductive. By then, discussion has moved on and people aren't even thinking about it anymore. That is like beating a dog or a child for something he did hours before. The world has moved on. The Mods need to keep up.

Moderators here tend to focus on the things that don't matter and ignore the things that do. They will issue an infraction or warning to a poster for insulting someone, but they seldom if ever give any thought to what precipitated the insult. Was it a response to something someone else said? Was it said to strictly to demean another poster? Was it said in jest? Those can all be very different things. Instead of examining context, the mods just look at the words. That is not only poor moderation, it indicates an intellectual deficiency on the part of the person doing so.

When moderators are asked why a particular action was taken, they need to respond. The poster doesn't need and in most cases doesn't want a response from a different mod from the one who took the action. He wants and should get a response from the one who issued the warning or the infraction or the ban or whatever.

This is a political discussion board. As long as people have engaged in political debate, rhetoric has often become heated. It is the nature of the beast. People don't come here for tea and crumpets. They come here to express themselves on the political and social issues of the day. In the vast majority of cases, if left alone, heated rhetoric cools off in short order and discussions continue. There is an old saying (a variant on the famous Thoreau quote) that goes "The government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves". There is much truth to that. We are mostly adults here. Moderators should stay out of the way and let discussions flow as they will, unless they get totally off track or degenerate to the point where productive discussion is no longer happening. One poster calling another a dumb ass (or something equivalent) is not just cause for a mod to jump in and issue a warning. If it happens repeatedly and the discussion becomes a personal battle with the insults outweighing the productive, on topic posts, that is a different matter. Mods need to learn that.

There also needs a be a subforum or some public, not hidden, area on the forum where moderation can be discussed. Restrict it to a single thread or create its own forum, but it needs to exist. Rule 9 is stupid. Mods screw up like anyone else. The difference when they do it, it has an impact on the forum. People need to be able to express differences of opinion about moderation decisions and it needs to be done where all can participate, not in some secret dungeon where no one has any idea what is being said or if the criticisms and suggestions are being considered at all.

Would you like to pay the moderators salaries?

Subdermal
02-04-2017, 03:57 PM
Yea, right.

Yeah. Right. But you may be projecting the type of fix you think I'd implement.

For that type of projection, I'd only need 30 minutes.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 03:59 PM
Cletus - in fairness to the mods, they can't be everywhere at all times, they're going to miss stuff, and in the spirit of the current "lightly modded" forum, I think (they can correct me if I'm speaking out of context) they generally don't moderate unless something is reported or just way off base.

That's why it's emphasized to report posts.
That is the main issue, most piss and moan, but rarely report.

I report both sides of the aisle because both are loathsome offenders.

And then magically, as if I had powers of something, a moderator shows up and moderates.

As for frivolous reporting? Mods have a way to deal with that. Not really a problem.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 04:03 PM
Over all? Things have improved rather recently. Fewer smears on the forum.

This is a good thing. So to the mod staff - I rescind what scathing remarks I issued prior to my exit from VIPs.

My apologies.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Chris
02-04-2017, 04:23 PM
Over all? Things have improved rather recently. Fewer smears on the forum.

This is a good thing. So to the mod staff - I rescind what scathing remarks I issued prior to my exit from VIPs.

My apologies.

Fear profits a man nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sulJSKwla6U

Mister D
02-04-2017, 04:35 PM
So re-organize with On the Serious Side on top and Politics and News on the bottom?

Very interesting.

Mister D
02-04-2017, 04:37 PM
Over all? Things have improved rather recently. Fewer smears on the forum.

This is a good thing. So to the mod staff - I rescind what scathing remarks I issued prior to my exit from VIPs.

My apologies.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Agreed. The recent infractions and bans have been a pleasant surprise.

Mister D
02-04-2017, 04:39 PM
That is the main issue, most piss and moan, but rarely report.

I report both sides of the aisle because both are loathsome offenders.

And then magically, as if I had powers of something, a moderator shows up and moderates.

As for frivolous reporting? Mods have a way to deal with that. Not really a problem.

Fear profits a man nothing.

That has been a real problem in the past.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 04:45 PM
That has been a real problem in the past.
Mods quickly figure out which reports are legitimate.

This is largely due to who they come from in my opinion.

It is what it is. If one cries wolf to often, you will get the warranted response time.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Mister D
02-04-2017, 04:48 PM
Mods quickly figure out which reports are legitimate.

This is largely due to who they come from in my opinion.

It is what it is. If one cries wolf to often, you will get the warranted response time.

Fear profits a man nothing.
True.

Cletus
02-04-2017, 04:58 PM
Would you like to pay the moderators salaries?

Did you have anything of merit to say, or did you just want to be noticed?

Ravens Fan
02-04-2017, 05:00 PM
That is the main issue, most piss and moan, but rarely report.

I report both sides of the aisle because both are loathsome offenders.

And then magically, as if I had powers of something, a moderator shows up and moderates.

As for frivolous reporting? Mods have a way to deal with that. Not really a problem.

Fear profits a man nothing.
In a lot of ways, I would rather see frivolous reporting than somebody not reporting, and then getting frustrated that nothing is done.

One of our jobs as Moderators is to look at the reports in as unbiased a way as possible. I think sometimes members who are wrapped up in a debate, or who may have been scorned by another member, tend to look at a post/thread through blinders. As well as those who the Mod team has had to take action on and then report every little thing for some time afterwards. It is human nature and is to be expected to some degree in a setting such as this. That is why we are here, to be able to step back and decide if a rule has really been broken or not.

As usual, I am only speaking to my opinion, but I don't have a problem with any reports.

Chris
02-04-2017, 05:02 PM
Well, there's genuine reporting, and we take them seriously, even if we don't always act. And there's frivolous reporting, and this is usually not understanding allowing snark but not allowing insult etc. And then there's revenge reporting, and this is I got moderated now everyone must.

But keep reporting. You'll learn where we draw lines and where not. And sometimes it just takes time to see a pattern of bad faith.

Cletus
02-04-2017, 05:02 PM
That is the main issue, most piss and moan, but rarely report.

I report both sides of the aisle because both are loathsome offenders.

And then magically, as if I had powers of something, a moderator shows up and moderates.

As for frivolous reporting? Mods have a way to deal with that. Not really a problem.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Give us some examples. You don't have to use names or direct quotes, but show us some of the types of things you consider worth reporting.

Cletus
02-04-2017, 05:11 PM
Based on what I just read in responses #29 and 30, it appears members are actually being encouraged to report things to the mods, rather than just acting like adults and moving past insults and slights, real or imagined.

WTF?

Here's an idea... why not offer bounties to the posters who generate reports that result in warnings and infractions? That should be real good for discussion. :rollseyes:

Chris
02-04-2017, 05:18 PM
Based on what I just read in responses #29 and 30, it appears members are actually being encouraged to report things to the mods, rather than just acting like adults and moving past insults and slights, real or imagined.

WTF?

Here's an idea... why not offer bounties to the posters who generate reports that result in warnings and infractions? That should be real good for discussion. :rollseyes:


This is a community and everyone is responsible and if you value this forum you will report responsibly.

gamewell45
02-04-2017, 05:21 PM
I think since the last town hall was conducted things overall in here are improving; my two recommendations are: 1. Consideration be given to the creation of a sub forum for labor; and 2. For posters to stop personally attacking each other; I think it takes away from the quality of debate when you get pages of personal bickering going on between posters. Otherwise I think the changes that have been made since the last town hall (btw I think the town hall is an excellent concept) have been good. Just my two cents.

Ravens Fan
02-04-2017, 05:28 PM
I think since the last town hall was conducted things overall in here are improving; my two recommendations are: 1. Consideration be given to the creation of a sub forum for labor; and 2. For posters to stop personally attacking each other; I think it takes away from the quality of debate when you get pages of personal bickering going on between posters. Otherwise I think the changes that have been made since the last town hall (btw I think the town hall is an excellent concept) have been good. Just my two cents.

Can you expand on your suggestion for the sub forum?

Cletus
02-04-2017, 05:29 PM
This is a community and everyone is responsible and if you value this forum you will report responsibly.

Do you encourage your neighbors to do that? Did your parents encourage you to squeal on your siblings instead of trying to work things out?

We are not talking about child abuse or thievery here. We are talking about saying something in the heat of discussion that someone else may take personally. Are we really so immature and unable to deal with each other like adults that we have to running to Mommy and Daddy every time someone says a "naughty" word?

If YOU valued this forum, you would encourage members to act like adults instead trying to cultivate a community of snitches and crybabies.

gamewell45
02-04-2017, 05:43 PM
Can you expand on your suggestion for the sub forum?

I would suggest that in the Economics and Political Science Room, we could consider the creation of a sub forum consisting of a room to discuss labor; more specifically news pertaining to labor whether it be organized labor and/or news on the labor front in general. I think it would be valuable at this stage especially since viable discussion could be entertained on the changing laws in labor, job creation, wage changes and other news worthy items related to such. Additionally It might attract a new type of membership who take an interest in labor in general, which I think might benefit the forum by added diversity.
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/otss.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/forums/21-The-Economics-and-Political-Science-Room)

Chris
02-04-2017, 05:43 PM
Do you encourage your neighbors to do that? Did your parents encourage you to squeal on your siblings instead of trying to work things out?

We are not talking about child abuse or thievery here. We are talking about saying something in the heat of discussion that someone else may take personally. Are we really so immature and unable to deal with each other like adults that we have to running to Mommy and Daddy every time someone says a "naughty" word?

If YOU valued this forum, you would encourage members to act like adults instead trying to cultivate a community of snitches and crybabies.

Yes, we neighbors watch out for each other.

Family too.

If I see someone breaking the law I report them.

I think this is the adult attitude.

Ravens Fan
02-04-2017, 05:46 PM
I would suggest that in the Economics and Political Science Room, we could consider the creation of a sub forum consisting of a room to discuss labor; more specifically news pertaining to labor whether it be organized labor and/or news on the labor front in general. I think it would be valuable at this stage especially since viable discussion could be entertained on the changing laws in labor, job creation, wage changes and other news worthy items related to such. Additionally It might attract a new type of membership who take an interest in labor in general, which I think might benefit the forum by added diversity.
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/otss.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/forums/21-The-Economics-and-Political-Science-Room)


Well, like Chris said earlier, it would have to go to the VIP room for consideration, but I like the idea. I am sure it will be discussed.

Adelaide
02-04-2017, 06:54 PM
Re-opened - looks like it was accidentally closed. Easy mistake, but sorry for any inconvenience.

Green Arrow
02-04-2017, 07:13 PM
Did you have anything of merit to say, or did you just want to be noticed?

I did, and said it. It's easy to demand more timeliness by mods. It's a lot harder to enable them to do so. Mods have a life outside of this forum. When I was a mod, I worked twelve hour days five to six days a week toward the end and we don't permit mods to act as lone wolves.

Common
02-04-2017, 07:17 PM
The forum is the best its ever been since ive been here regarding behavior discipline and trolling. Its impossible to stop all of anything.

The moderation in my opinion is the best its ever been and I believe its being administered fairer than its ever been.

Anyone thats been here awhile knows im not bashful and ive bashed the moderation to death in the past. I have to give credit where its due and the moderating team with the admin behind them are doing a thankless job as well as it can be done.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 08:34 PM
Give us some examples. You don't have to use names or direct quotes, but show us some of the types of things you consider worth reporting.
When in threads, look at who gets taken out. Odds are, there is a good chance I reported it.

I have been reporting like mad lately. Admittedly the are more lefties breaking rules than right wing bubbas. But right wingers that step out of line are perfectly fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Basically, if I see rules violated, I shoot up a flare. Bad faith and insults are the primary reasons.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Ethereal
02-04-2017, 08:38 PM
*Ethereal arrives at the Town Hall, heralded by trumpets with rose petals at his feet*

Greetings, fellow denizens. Let us commence to resolving our differences so that we may once again live in harmony.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 08:41 PM
*Ethereal arrives at the Town Hall, heralded by trumpets with rose petals at his feet*

Greetings, fellow denizens. Let us commence to resolving our differences so that we may once again live in harmony.
I'm totally going to poo on your red carpet.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Ethereal
02-04-2017, 08:44 PM
I'm totally going to poo on your red carpet.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Impudent whelp! Seize him! Take him to the pillory to be made an example of!

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 08:48 PM
Impudent whelp! Seize him! Take him to the pillory to be made an example of!
Imma roll in it too. Still want to apprehend me?

Fear profits a man nothing.

Ethereal
02-04-2017, 09:01 PM
Imma roll in it too. Still want to apprehend me?

Fear profits a man nothing.

My underlings shall make quick work of thee.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 09:07 PM
My underlings shall make quick work of thee.
Underlings?

You're going to feed Cthulhu an evening snack?

Fear profits a man nothing.

Hal Jordan
02-04-2017, 09:37 PM
*looks up from throne*

Gentleman, please.

Hath anyone laid eyes on mine petitioner?

Ethereal
02-04-2017, 09:43 PM
Underlings?

You're going to feed Cthulhu an evening snack?

Fear profits a man nothing.
I grow weary of your antics. I shall retire to my palatial estate.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 09:51 PM
*looks up from throne*

Gentleman, please.

Hath anyone laid eyes on mine petitioner?
I dindu nuffin.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Cthulhu
02-04-2017, 09:52 PM
I grow weary of your antics. I shall retire to my palatial estate.
Good underlings are hard to replace. I understand.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Evmetro
02-04-2017, 09:55 PM
2. For posters to stop personally attacking each other; I think it takes away from the quality of debate when you get pages of personal bickering going on between posters.

Keep in mind that the honest nature of politics is that people really do want to attack each other. Politics are an ugly thing to discuss, and people really do hate each other. When you see members who are exchanging personal attacks, you are actually seeing the real truth. Enjoy this glimpse of how the real world really is, because it will quickly be obscured with a new label like "baiting' or 'trolling'. No matter some political board mod ends up calling it, it is your view to the real world, so enjoy witnessing the real truth before your very eyes. You will only have a limited amount of time to experience the real truth before you become sheltered from it, so enjoy it while it lasts. The quality of debate will actually be at its peak when you can see the real truth.

Hal Jordan
02-04-2017, 10:08 PM
Keep in mind that the honest nature of politics is that people really do want to attack each other. Politics are an ugly thing to discuss, and people really do hate each other. When you see members who are exchanging personal attacks, you are actually seeing the real truth. Enjoy this glimpse of how the real world really is, because it will quickly be obscured with a new label like "baiting' or 'trolling'. No matter some political board mod ends up calling it, it is your view to the real world, so enjoy witnessing the real truth before your very eyes. You will only have a limited amount of time to experience the real truth before you become sheltered from it, so enjoy it while it lasts. The quality of debate will actually be at its peak when you can see the real truth.

Actually, when the hate and tripe are at their highest, quality debate is at its lowest. See: The 2016 Presidential Debates. Also, they show that the hate and tripe are unrelated to truth. In truth, Trump and Hillary are close friends.

resister
02-04-2017, 11:17 PM
Actually, when the hate and tripe are at their highest, quality debate is at its lowest. See: The 2016 Presidential Debates. Also, they show that the hate and tripe are unrelated to truth. In truth, Trump and Hillary are close friends.
Yeah, maybe but Trump can whup her ass, again!

Hal Jordan
02-04-2017, 11:47 PM
Yeah, maybe but Trump can whup her ass, again!
Why would he? No, don't answer here. There are other threads more relevant for that. If not, you can create one for it.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 01:29 AM
Yes, we neighbors watch out for each other.

Family too.

If I see someone breaking the law I report them.

I think this is the adult attitude.

Seems I have heard that somewhere before... maybe, Berlin, 1933. They were real good about getting neighbors and even family members to turn each other in for politically incorrect behavior.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 01:36 AM
I did, and said it. It's easy to demand more timeliness by mods. It's a lot harder to enable them to do so. Mods have a life outside of this forum. When I was a mod, I worked twelve hour days five to six days a week toward the end and we don't permit mods to act as lone wolves.

As usual, you missed the point. If you can't act on a post in a timely manner, it shouldn't be acted on at all. It does no good to sanction somebody for something said hours before. All it does it disrupt the flow of conversation.

As far as mods acting by themselves goes... this whole moderating by committee is not only counterproductive, it should be insulting to the mods. If someone cannot be trusted to exercise proper judgment in his duties, he shouldn't be in the position. Maybe you need to be supervised in every decision you make, but most people do not. Let the mods do their jobs and moderate or just get rid of them. There you go... anytime there is a questionable post, put it to vote on the open board. Sanction/Don't sanction. It would be just as efficient as what is being done now and make about as much sense.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 01:40 AM
Re-opened - looks like it was accidentally closed. Easy mistake, but sorry for any inconvenience.

Uh huh.

Easy mistake? I am not even going to ask how you make a mistake like that.

Evmetro
02-05-2017, 01:40 AM
Seems I have heard that somewhere before... maybe, Berlin, 1933. They were real good about getting neighbors and even family members to turn each other in for politically incorrect behavior.

Some people think that just because a rule or law exists, that it must be enforced.

Adelaide
02-05-2017, 06:57 AM
Uh huh.

Easy mistake? I am not even going to ask how you make a mistake like that.

17138

All it takes is to accidentally click the box I highlighted. Pretty easy to accidentally do, especially if you use a laptop since the mouse can go more wild. I think certain key strokes may also accidentally click it so it could happen when formatting your post.

No conspiracy theory required. An innocent mistake was made.

Peter1469
02-05-2017, 07:42 AM
Uh huh.

Easy mistake? I am not even going to ask how you make a mistake like that.

The close thread button can only be seen by mods and it is right below Thanks. On a cell phone, that is an easy mistake to make.

Chris
02-05-2017, 08:27 AM
Keep in mind that the honest nature of politics is that people really do want to attack each other. Politics are an ugly thing to discuss, and people really do hate each other. When you see members who are exchanging personal attacks, you are actually seeing the real truth. Enjoy this glimpse of how the real world really is, because it will quickly be obscured with a new label like "baiting' or 'trolling'. No matter some political board mod ends up calling it, it is your view to the real world, so enjoy witnessing the real truth before your very eyes. You will only have a limited amount of time to experience the real truth before you become sheltered from it, so enjoy it while it lasts. The quality of debate will actually be at its peak when you can see the real truth.


Yea, you keep pushing this negative view of things, conflating politics with trolling and baiting. I would guess there might be a few who share your opinion. But it's just one of many.

More properly the topic here should be how accommodate many different views and opinions.

Chris
02-05-2017, 08:30 AM
Seems I have heard that somewhere before... maybe, Berlin, 1933. They were real good about getting neighbors and even family members to turn each other in for politically incorrect behavior.

Your view of the way things should be runs counter to the purpose and design of the forum.

Chris
02-05-2017, 08:33 AM
As usual, you missed the point. If you can't act on a post in a timely manner, it shouldn't be acted on at all. It does no good to sanction somebody for something said hours before. All it does it disrupt the flow of conversation.

As far as mods acting by themselves goes... this whole moderating by committee is not only counterproductive, it should be insulting to the mods. If someone cannot be trusted to exercise proper judgment in his duties, he shouldn't be in the position. Maybe you need to be supervised in every decision you make, but most people do not. Let the mods do their jobs and moderate or just get rid of them. There you go... anytime there is a questionable post, put it to vote on the open board. Sanction/Don't sanction. It would be just as efficient as what is being done now and make about as much sense.



Again, a view that runs counter to the very spirit of this forum.



Some of you with your negative opinions and alternative views of what a forum should be...well, I have to say it, maybe you don't belong here. The purpose of this thread is to get feedback on where we can improve and build on what we have, you're asked for constructive criticism, not how to remake it into your image.

AeonPax
02-05-2017, 08:36 AM
`
`
Having been in forums with really shitty, juvenile and stupid modding, this site is a breath of fresh air. Can I have my $10 now?

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 10:05 AM
As usual, you missed the point. If you can't act on a post in a timely manner, it shouldn't be acted on at all. It does no good to sanction somebody for something said hours before. All it does it disrupt the flow of conversation.
Nine times out of ten the action being acted on is still ongoing when that point comes about, and it's very rarely "hours later."

As far as mods acting by themselves goes... this whole moderating by committee is not only counterproductive, it should be insulting to the mods. If someone cannot be trusted to exercise proper judgment in his duties, he shouldn't be in the position. Maybe you need to be supervised in every decision you make, but most people do not. Let the mods do their jobs and moderate or just get rid of them. There you go... anytime there is a questionable post, put it to vote on the open board. Sanction/Don't sanction. It would be just as efficient as what is being done now and make about as much sense.

Yeah, no, that's not how that works. It has nothing to do with trusting them to have good judgment, it has everything to do with making sure the team all agrees on it so there is as much consistency in moderation as humanly possible. What is good judgment to you is not good judgment to me, and what is good judgment to me is not good judgment to Dr. Who, and so on and so forth. We all have our own ideas on how this place should be run and that's why we as a forum have decided on moderation by committee, as a check and balance.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 10:06 AM
Uh huh.

Easy mistake? I am not even going to ask how you make a mistake like that.

You want people to consider what you have to say, but then you call the very people you want to consider your words liars? Try coming into this in good faith, maybe then you'll get somewhere.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 10:07 AM
Seems I have heard that somewhere before... maybe, Berlin, 1933. They were real good about getting neighbors and even family members to turn each other in for politically incorrect behavior.

Yes, because cleaning up an internet forum = Nazi Germany.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gif

Cletus
02-05-2017, 10:58 AM
The close thread button can only be seen by mods and it is right below Thanks. On a cell phone, that is an easy mistake to make.

I guess. All I know is I moderated two forums for about a decade and never closed a thread accidentally or saw any other moderator close a thread accidentally. Maybe they should stay off the phone and use screens they can actually see.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:03 AM
You want people to consider what you have to say, but then you call the very people you want to consider your words liars? Try coming into this in good faith, maybe then you'll get somewhere.

Provide a quote in which I called someone a liar.

I didn't close the thread. I didn't say it wasn't carelessness on someone else's part. If it was an accident, it was an accident. Until it was explained, there was no reason to believe it was. Now that it has been explained, it is no longer an issue.

Go chew on someone else's ankle please. You are becoming tiresome.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:04 AM
I guess. All I know is I moderated two forums for about a decade and never closed a thread accidentally or saw any other moderator close a thread accidentally. Maybe they should stay off the phone and use screens they can actually see.

It was an accident, probably a glitch on the forum software as it's been happening randomly for years. People point it out, it's re-opened, life goes on, normally.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 11:05 AM
Provide a quote in which I called someone a liar.

I didn't close the thread. I didn't say it wasn't carelessness on someone else's part. If it was an accident, it was an accident. Until it was explained, there was no reason to believe it was. Now that it has been explained, it is no longer an issue.
So your response to Adelaide was completely accepting of her explanation. The sarcastic "Uh huh." wasn't doubt at all?

Go chew on someone else's ankle please. You are becoming tiresome.
I don't know why I continually have to explain this, but I have just as much right to post here as you do. I'll continue to do so. You're nobody special to me, I respond to you when you are wrong and in need of correction just the same as I respond to anyone else. You just happen to be wrong quite often.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:06 AM
Provide a quote in which I called someone a liar.

I didn't close the thread. I didn't say it wasn't carelessness on someone else's part. If it was an accident, it was an accident. Until it was explained, there was no reason to believe it was. Now that it has been explained, it is no longer an issue.

Go chew on someone else's ankle please. You are becoming tiresome.



No, if it had been closed on purpose you would have see a notification posted stating so. That's the protocol we follow. So let's drop your pointless complaint.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 11:07 AM
I guess. All I know is I moderated two forums for about a decade and never closed a thread accidentally or saw any other moderator close a thread accidentally. Maybe they should stay off the phone and use screens they can actually see. Cletus It was me. I was on my laptop computer and didn't even realize that I had apparently clicked that box. I acted as soon as I saw your other thread, and it was corrected. You can accept that or not, makes no difference to me.

Do you have anything constructive to add to this town hall, or are you just here to tell us how much we suck? Reading your contributions so far in this and the other thread, it leaves me to wonder why you even come to this forum, if it is so bad?

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:09 AM
Yes, because cleaning up an internet forum = Nazi Germany.

It is not "cleaning up" anything. Chris called this place a "community". I have no problem with that, but who would want to live in a community in which their neighbors are actively encouraged by the authorities to report every minor fraction or suspected fraction? Who wants to walk around on eggshells because they are afraid of the secret police pounding on their door because they spit on the sidewalk?

I guess the answer is you.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:11 AM
It is not "cleaning up" anything. Chris called this place a "community". I have no problem with that, but who would want to live in a community in which their neighbors are actively encouraged by the authorities to report every minor fraction or suspected fraction? Who wants to walk around on eggshells because they are afraid of the secret police pounding on their door because they spit on the sidewalk?

I guess the answer is you.


Again, the strange paranoid view of this forum.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 11:12 AM
It is not "cleaning up" anything. Chris called this place a "community". I have no problem with that, but who would want to live in a community in which their neighbors are actively encouraged by the authorities to report every minor fraction or suspected fraction? Who wants to walk around on eggshells because they are afraid of the secret police pounding on their door because they spit on the sidewalk?

I guess the answer is you.

What you describe is not even close to what is occurring here.

Trolls and malcontents are shown the door. Discourse improves. Life goes on.

Adelaide
02-05-2017, 11:15 AM
Part of the way that moderation is determined, in terms of severity or interpretations of the rules, is in reporting trends. For members to drive the moderation of the forum, reports are one of the most useful ways. It allows the moderation staff to see what people find inappropriate or unacceptable. It also allows the rules to be applied since moderators do not go into every thread and/or read every post.

Peter1469
02-05-2017, 11:26 AM
I guess. All I know is I moderated two forums for about a decade and never closed a thread accidentally or saw any other moderator close a thread accidentally. Maybe they should stay off the phone and use screens they can actually see.

I can't use this site on my phone. I can barely use it on my Kindle Fire.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:28 AM
@Cletus (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1708) It was me. I was on my laptop computer and didn't even realize that I had apparently clicked that box. I acted as soon as I saw your other thread, and it was corrected. You can accept that or not, makes no difference to me.

I have no problem accepting that. You said that is what happened, so that's what happened. Whether it makes a difference to you if I accept it or not is of no importance.


Do you have anything constructive to add to this town hall, or are you just here to tell us how much we suck? Reading your contributions so far in this and the other thread, it leaves me to wonder why you even come to this forum, if it is so bad?

I have made suggestions about how to make the forum better. The single biggest problem here is moderation. It sucks. It is unevenly applied. It is used for the wrong reasons at the wrong times. Policies like moderating by committee are inefficient and counterproductive. Maybe that is why other forums don't do it. If a mod can't be trusted to make a decision, he has no reason to exist. If you can't make a decision regarding a thread in a timely manner, either because you are not on the board or you can't arrange a conference call, leave it alone. Showing up several hours later and issuing a warning is ridiculous. Once a mod does take action regarding a post, allowing some other mod to come back later and stack punishment on top of what was already done is also piss poor leadership. You are undermining your own mods when you do that, not to mention even further alienating the people who actually make this forum work... the posters. You guys seem to have forgotten that. The forum is not about you. It is about them.

There are some really good things about this forum, mostly the posters. Some are idiots, but most are actually pretty sharp. THAT is why I come here... to read what they have to say and to exchange thoughts and ideas with them. The biggest problem with this place is the elitist attitude and secrecy maintained by those who supposedly run it. The whole VIP concept is silly. What is even worse, is that many of the "VIPs" either seldom post or just troll and contribute nothing when they do post. The inability of members to say "WTF?" when they think a bad moderation call has been made is another thing that contributes to the sense of a caste system here. There is a simple fix for that and I have explained what it is.

The purpose of this Town Hall thing is ostensibly to offer and discuss ways to improve the forum. It is not to sit around and stroke the egos of those on Mt. Olympus. If you don't want to hear from the peons, don't have open meetings like this.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:29 AM
What you describe is not even close to what is occurring here.

It is exactly what is happening here. You just choose not to see it.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:31 AM
Part of the way that moderation is determined, in terms of severity or interpretations of the rules, is in reporting trends. For members to drive the moderation of the forum, reports are one of the most useful ways. It allows the moderation staff to see what people find inappropriate or unacceptable. It also allows the rules to be applied since moderators do not go into every thread and/or read every post.

Forums like this have existed for decades without the administration encouraging the members to report every little affront, real or imagined.

Adelaide
02-05-2017, 11:31 AM
Rule 9 regarding questioning moderation is ultimately about keeping the forum and topics on topic. Moderation isn't the topic (usually). Interrupting a thread to complain or comment or whatever just contributes to the degradation of the topic. Most complaints can and should be dealt with by PM.


Edit: A second issue is that moderators shouldn't be publicly roasted for doing their jobs, on behalf of the group of moderators.

Adelaide
02-05-2017, 11:33 AM
Forums like this have existed for decades without the administration encouraging the members to report every little affront, real or imagined.
Every forum I have ever been a member of since about 2001 has encouraged the reporting of posts which violate the rules. That is the nature of discussion forums unless they are free-for-all shit holes like that Argue with Assholes place.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:33 AM
I have no problem accepting that. You said that is what happened, so that's what happened. Whether it makes a difference to you if I accept it or not is of no importance.



I have made suggestions about how to make the forum better. The single biggest problem here is moderation. It sucks. It is unevenly applied. It is used for the wrong reasons at the wrong times. Policies like moderating by committee are inefficient and counterproductive. Maybe that is why other forums don't do it. If a mod can't be trusted to make a decision, he has no reason to exist. If you can't make a decision regarding a thread in a timely manner, either because you are not on the board or you can't arrange a conference call, leave it alone. Showing up several hours later and issuing a warning is ridiculous. Once a mod does take action regarding a post, allowing some other mod to come back later and stack punishment on top of what was already done is also piss poor leadership. You are undermining your own mods when you do that, not to mention even further alienating the people who actually make this forum work... the posters. You guys seem to have forgotten that. The forum is not about you. It is about them.

There are some really good things about this forum, mostly the posters. Some are idiots, but most are actually pretty sharp. THAT is why I come here... to read what they have to say and to exchange thoughts and ideas with them. The biggest problem with this place is the elitist attitude and secrecy maintained by those who supposedly run it. The whole VIP concept is silly. What is even worse, is that many of the "VIPs" either seldom post or just troll and contribute nothing when they do post. The inability of members to say "WTF?" when they think a bad moderation call has been made is another thing that contributes to the sense of a caste system here. There is a simple fix for that and I have explained what it is.

The purpose of this Town Hall thing is ostensibly to offer and discuss ways to improve the forum. It is not to sit around and stroke the egos of those on Mt. Olympus. If you don't want to hear from the peons, don't have open meetings like this.


You've not suggested improvements other than to just make the forum into what you like and what it is not. That's not constructive. We don't want to listen to personal gripes like yours.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:34 AM
No, if it had been closed on purpose you would have see a notification posted stating so. That's the protocol we follow. So let's drop your pointless complaint.

It wasn't a complaint. It was an observation. Somebody closed the thread without explanation. I asked why. It wasn't an attack on anybody. It was a legitimate question. If you are too thin skinned to handle that, maybe you should take up a new hobby.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:35 AM
You've not suggested improvements other than to just make the forum into what you like and what it is not. That's not constructive. We don't want to listen to personal gripes like yours.

There you go.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:35 AM
Every forum I have ever been a member of since about 2001 has encouraged the reporting of posts which violate the rules. That is the nature of discussion forums unless they are free-for-all shit holes like that Argue with Assholes place.

Same here. Every forum I've been on has had a reporting function.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:37 AM
There you go.

So you have to cherry pick words to say that? I said "We don't want to listen to personal gripes like yours."

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:39 AM
It wasn't a complaint. It was an observation. Somebody closed the thread without explanation. I asked why. It wasn't an attack on anybody. It was a legitimate question. If you are too thin skinned to handle that, maybe you should take up a new hobby.

Good God you're still going on about the thread closing. Get a life.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:39 AM
Every forum I have ever been a member of since about 2001 has encouraged the reporting of posts which violate the rules. That is the nature of discussion forums unless they are free-for-all shit holes like that Argue with Assholes place.

Really?

I don't know where you have been hanging out, but I have NEVER seen a successful forum in which members were encouraged to snitch on each other. And I have been this since way before 2001. Most places try to treat their members like adults and encourage them to moderate themselves as much as possible. Believe it or not, that actually works. Members tend to police themselves much more efficiently than you want to believe.

Peter1469
02-05-2017, 11:40 AM
Really?

I don't know where you have been hanging out, but I have NEVER seen a successful forum in which members were encouraged to snitch on each other. And I have been this since way before 2001. Most places try to treat their members like adults and encourage them to moderate themselves as much as possible. Believe it or not, that actually works. Members tend to police themselves much more efficiently than you want to believe.

Like Exo?

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:41 AM
Good God you're still going on about the thread closing. Get a life.

That was a response to a comment to me. That is what people do. Someone makes a comment to a poster and the other poster responds to it.

If you don't know how these things work, that would explain a lot.

Cletus
02-05-2017, 11:43 AM
Like Exo?

Exo is easy to handle. You just post around it. We have several trolls here and people go around them all the time.

resister
02-05-2017, 11:43 AM
Like Exo?
SSHHH...it might here you!

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:44 AM
Really?

I don't know where you have been hanging out, but I have NEVER seen a successful forum in which members were encouraged to snitch on each other. And I have been this since way before 2001. Most places try to treat their members like adults and encourage them to moderate themselves as much as possible. Believe it or not, that actually works. Members tend to police themselves much more efficiently than you want to believe.



You are aware others have other experiences and other opinions, are you not?

Frankly, I don't see you policing yourself very well.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:45 AM
That was a response to a comment to me. That is what people do. Someone makes a comment to a poster and the other poster responds to it.

If you don't know how these things work, that would explain a lot.



Normally people drop complaints that have been explained.

I'm done with your insults.

Chris
02-05-2017, 11:47 AM
Cletus has been TBed. Let's let others voice opinions.

Peter1469
02-05-2017, 11:49 AM
Exo is easy to handle. You just post around it. We have several trolls here and people go around them all the time.

On the lighter side I am OK with that. That is why we have tPF threads and the Serious Side. Good members shouldn't have to constantly scroll past lots of trash.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 11:51 AM
I have no problem accepting that. You said that is what happened, so that's what happened. Whether it makes a difference to you if I accept it or not is of no importance.

You are the one who keeps bringing it up, so I addressed it.




I have made suggestions about how to make the forum better. The single biggest problem here is moderation. It sucks. It is unevenly applied. It is used for the wrong reasons at the wrong times. Policies like moderating by committee are inefficient and counterproductive. Maybe that is why other forums don't do it. If a mod can't be trusted to make a decision, he has no reason to exist. If you can't make a decision regarding a thread in a timely manner, either because you are not on the board or you can't arrange a conference call, leave it alone. Showing up several hours later and issuing a warning is ridiculous. Once a mod does take action regarding a post, allowing some other mod to come back later and stack punishment on top of what was already done is also piss poor leadership. You are undermining your own mods when you do that, not to mention even further alienating the people who actually make this forum work... the posters. You guys seem to have forgotten that. The forum is not about you. It is about them.



There are some really good things about this forum, mostly the posters. Some are idiots, but most are actually pretty sharp. THAT is why I come here... to read what they have to say and to exchange thoughts and ideas with them. The biggest problem with this place is the elitist attitude and secrecy maintained by those who supposedly run it. The whole VIP concept is silly. What is even worse, is that many of the "VIPs" either seldom post or just troll and contribute nothing when they do post. The inability of members to say "WTF?" when they think a bad moderation call has been made is another thing that contributes to the sense of a caste system here. There is a simple fix for that and I have explained what it is.

The purpose of this Town Hall thing is ostensibly to offer and discuss ways to improve the forum. It is not to sit around and stroke the egos of those on Mt. Olympus. If you don't want to hear from the peons, don't have open meetings like this.
Your suggestions have been nothing more than extreme criticism of the Admin, Moderation team and VIP's. We do not mind criticism, and some can be well deserved. We opened it up to hear back from the membership on what we, as a team can do better, and what you guys feel is working. Not to be told that our very existence is stupid.

Do you have any ideas on what else we can do to control the trolling issue, which actually has pushed members away or convinced them not to participate as much? Do you feel that we have been doing a good job in tackling that issue?

Do you feel that we are transparent enough in the way we moderate, or do we have work to do in that area yet?

Do you have ideas towards the OtSS change that we have recently made? Any feelings for how we could make that area more attractive to those wanting more serious discussion?

Those are the types of things we were hoping to get feedback on, and the reason for the town hall. If you want to scrap the whole model, I doubt you will have much support. The owner of the site decides how he wants the site run, and the model reflects that. If that is too much for you to deal with, I too suggest opening your own forum, where you can have a free-for-all, or can become a dictator, relying on one person's opinion of what your rules say and how they apply to each situation.

HoneyBadger
02-05-2017, 11:59 AM
So I"m guessing there was no "discussion" on the thread ban of Cletus since we have another moderator asking him a series of questions he is unable to answer.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 12:16 PM
It is exactly what is happening here. You just choose not to see it.

If it is what was happening here you would have been gone a long time ago, considering you don't seem capable of talking to the moderators in any manner other than adversarial. Yet you're still here, allowed to disrespect and attack from the get-go.

Very few people have ever been perma-banned from this forum and every single one of them was an unrepentant troll and, in some cases, a seriously disturbed individual that threatened violence on members. As opposed to what would actually happen in your Nazi Forum scenario, where half the membership is perma-banned for not much of anything at all.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 12:19 PM
Really?

I don't know where you have been hanging out, but I have NEVER seen a successful forum in which members were encouraged to snitch on each other. And I have been this since way before 2001. Most places try to treat their members like adults and encourage them to moderate themselves as much as possible. Believe it or not, that actually works. Members tend to police themselves much more efficiently than you want to believe.

And for the record to anyone viewing, we have tried that before and it never works. This forum devolved into a mosh pit. Experiment failed, now we go to what works everywhere it's tried.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 12:20 PM
So I"m guessing there was no "discussion" on the thread ban of Cletus since we have another moderator asking him a series of questions he is unable to answer.

I was too busy writing my reply and hadn't made it into that discussion at the time. I agree with the decision that was made, but chose to leave my post in hopes it may spark better discussion.


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Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 12:26 PM
So I"m guessing there was no "discussion" on the thread ban of Cletus since we have another moderator asking him a series of questions he is unable to answer.


I was too busy writing my reply and hadn't made it into that discussion at the time. I agree with the decision that was made, but chose to leave my post in hopes it may spark better discussion.


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What I found unusual about the Cletus thread ban was that it was done supposedly to allow others the opportunity to express their views in this thread. How was his participation preventing others from entering the discussion?

resister
02-05-2017, 12:30 PM
Can we get an open forum vote on the top trolls? We allways hear that both sides say different ones and this makes them hard to identify? It would be interesting to see.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 12:35 PM
What I found unusual about the Cletus thread ban was that it was done supposedly to allow others the opportunity to express their views in this thread. How was his participation preventing others from entering the discussion?

IMO, Cletus' posts were meant to sow discontent, not to constructively criticize the moderation of the forum. We tried several times to steer the discussion back to the original intent of the town hall, and he was fighting that tooth and nail. We understand that he does not like the way the forum is set up in general, but that is not on the table at this time.

resister
02-05-2017, 12:39 PM
Can we get an open forum vote on the top trolls? We allways hear that both sides say different ones and this makes them hard to identify? It would be interesting to see.I don't think any will deny there are at least 2 posters whose content is consistantly 80% trash.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 12:39 PM
What I found unusual about the Cletus thread ban was that it was done supposedly to allow others the opportunity to express their views in this thread. How was his participation preventing others from entering the discussion?

Do you have anything constructive to add to the subject of the Town Hall?

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 12:40 PM
IMO, Cletus' posts were meant to sow discontent, not to constructively criticize the moderation of the forum. We tried several times to steer the discussion back to the original intent of the town hall, and he was fighting that tooth and nail. We understand that he does not like the way the forum is set up in general, but that is not on the table at this time.

In my opinion, the TB was uncalled for. This was supposed to be a town hall, he was not offensive in any way. Banning him added credibility to his complaints.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 12:41 PM
Do you have anything constructive to add to the subject of the Town Hall?

Excuse me? Are you trying to further the discussion or what?

Chris
02-05-2017, 12:41 PM
So I"m guessing there was no "discussion" on the thread ban of Cletus since we have another moderator asking him a series of questions he is unable to answer.


What I found unusual about the Cletus thread ban was that it was done supposedly to allow others the opportunity to express their views in this thread. How was his participation preventing others from entering the discussion?


He'd expressed his opinion that the forum and moderation sucked. There was no discussion. It was not constructive. Just malcontented complaint.

Others don't want to step into the middle of a fight where they might get attacked and insulted.

That's why.

The purpose of this Town Hall is to let everyone off constructive criticism. It remains so.

Chris
02-05-2017, 12:43 PM
In my opinion, the TB was uncalled for. This was supposed to be a town hall, he was not offensive in any way. Banning him added credibility to his complaints.

We're not here to discuss any specific moderation action, which is a violation of rule 9.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 12:46 PM
Excuse me? Are you trying to further the discussion or what?

Yes, I am.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the subject?

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 12:48 PM
I believe that if you are having a town hall type discussion, criticism of the forum's leadership should be allowed as long as that criticism is not obscene, advocating violence or personal in nature.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 12:51 PM
I believe that if you are having a town hall type discussion, criticism of the forum's leadership should be allowed as long as that criticism is not obscene, advocating violence or personal in nature.
The Mod action is done. To continue discussing it in the public forum goes against the rules.

Lets get back to the subject of this thread. Do you have anything to add about moderation in general?

Chris
02-05-2017, 12:52 PM
I believe that if you are having a town hall type discussion, criticism of the forum's leadership should be allowed as long as that criticism is not obscene, advocating violence or personal in nature.


Yes, it is allowed. Just keep it general and constructive.


Earlier criticism was made about communicating better. That was taken in the spirit it was intended and agreed to.

If you think mods mod too much, or too little, voice your opinion.

If you think we should more of this and less of that, let us know.


But arguing about a specific action needs to be done via Report of PM.

Evmetro
02-05-2017, 12:57 PM
In my opinion, the TB was uncalled for. This was supposed to be a town hall, he was not offensive in any way. Banning him added credibility to his complaints.

I will be TBd next. Guys like Cletus and me make heavy governing forces feel threatened. There is only one subjective goal of authority, and that is to win.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 01:24 PM
Yes, it is allowed. Just keep it general and constructive.


Earlier criticism was made about communicating better. That was taken in the spirit it was intended and agreed to.

If you think mods mod too much, or too little, voice your opinion.

If you think we should more of this and less of that, let us know.


But arguing about a specific action needs to be done via Report of PM.

That's a good response.

Honestly, I think that the moderators let too much nonsense take place. Maybe that's because they can't be everywhere all the time. I guess the only answer to that is to rely on a reporting function, then decide if there's any merit behind the reported conduct. Not all reported misbehavior is valid.

I do think that in the past, both distant and recent, there were mods who were just as much of a troll as anyone. This seems to have been corrected as of late.

I still don't see the problem with openly discussing a specific action as long as it's done rationally and in the proper forum. I've never been a big fan of secrecy.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 01:28 PM
Sort of but keep the hole whole, for the really hole-worthy stuff.

But otherwise, yes.

Just about every thread degrades into something "hole worthy" at some point.

Green Arrow
02-05-2017, 01:34 PM
That's a good response.

Honestly, I think that the moderators let too much nonsense take place. Maybe that's because they can't be everywhere all the time. I guess the only answer to that is to rely on a reporting function, then decide if there's any merit behind the reported conduct. Not all reported misbehavior is valid.

I do think that in the past, both distant and recent, there were mods who were just as much of a troll as anyone. This seems to have been corrected as of late.

I still don't see the problem with openly discussing a specific action as long as it's done rationally and in the proper forum. I've never been a big fan of secrecy.

There is little secrecy when it comes to moderation. You can see when new moderators are appointed and sitting moderators removed. You can see who gets infracted and perma-banned. You can see who gets warned. The only thing you can't see is the specific discussion moderators have before making a decision.

Chris
02-05-2017, 01:45 PM
That's a good response.

Honestly, I think that the moderators let too much nonsense take place. Maybe that's because they can't be everywhere all the time. I guess the only answer to that is to rely on a reporting function, then decide if there's any merit behind the reported conduct. Not all reported misbehavior is valid.

I do think that in the past, both distant and recent, there were mods who were just as much of a troll as anyone. This seems to have been corrected as of late.

I still don't see the problem with openly discussing a specific action as long as it's done rationally and in the proper forum. I've never been a big fan of secrecy.


I suggest starting and looking for starred threads under On the Serious Side (http://thepoliticalforums.com/forums/4-On-the-Serious-Side) where mods will moderate more strictly.

There's suggestions for adding areas under OtSS, including a contemporary politics area, and rearranging the forum some. These will be taken to VIPs for consideration.

That should lead to more serious/sincere discussions.


We're willing to discuss actions offline. We do remove warnings, TBs, infractions if reasonable arguments are given us.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 01:54 PM
I suggest starting and looking for starred threads under On the Serious Side (http://thepoliticalforums.com/forums/4-On-the-Serious-Side) where mods will moderate more strictly.
.....


Why not just apply the starred threads concept in the existing threads on political issues and current events?

If it's an issue of the number of mods, solicit certain responsible members to take on that task.

Chris
02-05-2017, 01:56 PM
Why not just apply the starred threads concept in the existing threads on political issues and current events?

If it's an issue of the number of mods, solicit certain responsible members to take on that task.


On the first, that's been suggested too.

On the second, we are.

Good ideas, both!

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 02:38 PM
Pretty much so, yes. If warnings and TBs don't work, we start infracting, after a few of those, 24 hour temp ban, then 3 day temp ban, then 7 day temp ban, then perma ban. If needed we can escalate that. But the idea is to give ample warning so member can change.

I've seen people return from a temporary ban being more disagreeable than they were. I would suggest that in the cases where a person is consistently trollish, more use of the post review function woukd be warranted.

Often times trolls can provide substance to a discussion. I've seen only three or four people here who Basically never contribute anything to a discussion.

Chris
02-05-2017, 02:49 PM
I've seen people return from a temporary ban being more disagreeable than they were. I would suggest that in the cases where a person is consistently trollish, more use of the post review function woukd be warranted.

Often times trolls can provide substance to a discussion. I've seen only three or four people here who Basically never contribute anything to a discussion.

Those are fairly easy, the ones who return worse. And, yes, we do occasionally use the post review function, while deciding what to do.

The difficult ones are those who return and behave for a week or two before getting back into it, you want to give them the benefit of behaving for a time, but wonder are they just gaming us.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 03:04 PM
I was just calling for an expanded use of the post review. Put them on post review for an extended and undefined length of time. They come off when they show clearly that they "get it".


The only problem with that is the post review isn't an instantaneous thing. By the time the comment is reviewd and determined to be appropriate or non toxic, the discussion has changed direction dramatically.

Chris
02-05-2017, 03:07 PM
Post review stops the troublemaker in his tracks and gives time for a team of mods to decide what to do.

Chris
02-05-2017, 03:15 PM
OK, now I get what you're saying. We use it to stop someone from posting altogether while we decide what to do. But, yes, we could use it to monitor a member's posts post by post, approving or disapproving them. We'll consider that.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 03:40 PM
OK, now I get what you're saying. We use it to stop someone from posting altogether while we decide what to do. But, yes, we could use it to monitor a member's posts post by post, approving or disapproving them. We'll consider that. You would need to do it in a way which is not perceived as silencing a point of view, but editing comments which are intended only to bait or insult.

Adelaide
02-05-2017, 04:44 PM
I was just calling for an expanded use of the post review. Put them on post review for an extended and undefined length of time. They come off when they show clearly that they "get it".


The only problem with that is the post review isn't an instantaneous thing. By the time the comment is reviewd and determined to be appropriate or non toxic, the discussion has changed direction dramatically.

This seems like a good idea. We have escalated moderation and often people come back from their 24 hours or more and want to go on tear, rather than use the time to calm down and/or change their behavior. If we could use post-review and quickly approve posts for a certain amount of time it would probably clean up the forum a bit.

Only problem is that moderators would have to look and approve the posts, but we already have a bit of an unofficial schedule so we could probably do it.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 04:59 PM
I think you could do it, but you may need to solicit some additional mods / editors for that purpose only.

HoneyBadger
02-05-2017, 06:05 PM
IMO, Cletus' posts were meant to sow discontent, not to constructively criticize the moderation of the forum.

No, they were not. Cletus has actually been a moderator on forums in the past. That is why he is so critical. For that matter, I've both moderated and administrated various forums over the years. I can say in some defense of the moderators here, it is very difficult at times to separate your role as moderator from your role as posting member. Some are more successful than others, that's just the way it goes.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 06:09 PM
No, they were not. Cletus has actually been a moderator on forums in the past. That is why he is so critical. For that matter, I've both moderated and administrated various forums over the years. I can say in some defense of the moderators here, it is very difficult at times to separate your role as moderator from your role as posting member. Some are more successful than others, that's just the way it goes.
You have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours, but the action is done and we need (per forum rules) to move on, in this thread at least. Do you have something to add to the topic at hand, perhaps?

Tricia
02-05-2017, 06:12 PM
No, they were not. Cletus has actually been a moderator on forums in the past. That is why he is so critical. For that matter, I've both moderated and administrated various forums over the years. I can say in some defense of the moderators here, it is very difficult at times to separate your role as moderator from your role as posting member. Some are more successful than others, that's just the way it goes.
I have never been on a board where you or Cletus were on the leadership. On that board/boards, was questioning a moderator on open allowed? If not, how was that handled?

Evmetro
02-05-2017, 06:21 PM
I was just calling for an expanded use of the post review. Put them on post review for an extended and undefined length of time. They come off when they show clearly that they "get it".
.

Sounds like an old movie called "one flew over the cuckoo nest". You DO NOT want a human being with a badge to have this kind of power. The only members who would survive would be the ones who can conform to WAY TOO MUCH power. Never suggest to the government that they need more power, because they will surely take you up on it. The people should always demand transparency, since the government is most interested in the interests of the government. Please be careful what you wish for.

Chris
02-05-2017, 06:26 PM
No, they were not. Cletus has actually been a moderator on forums in the past. That is why he is so critical. For that matter, I've both moderated and administrated various forums over the years. I can say in some defense of the moderators here, it is very difficult at times to separate your role as moderator from your role as posting member. Some are more successful than others, that's just the way it goes.

It's also difficult for some members to separate the moderator from the member.

Chris
02-05-2017, 06:28 PM
Sounds like an old movie called "one flew over the cuckoo nest". You DO NOT want a human being with a badge to have this kind of power. The only members who would survive would be the ones who can conform to WAY TOO MUCH power. Never suggest to the government that they need more power, because they will surely take you up on it. The people should always demand transparency, since the government is most interested in the interests of the government. Please be careful what you wish for.

We're not the government. It's a private forum. We're not going to create robots to moderate. We will use of best judgments.

resister
02-05-2017, 06:33 PM
If no one has said it yet, thank you mods for donating your time, I enjoy this forum. I don't envy your job, I think yall do pretty good.

Bethere
02-05-2017, 07:05 PM
It's also difficult for some members to separate the moderator from the member.
Sometimes moderators have a hard time seperating the two roles as well.

Chris
02-05-2017, 07:06 PM
And vice versa.

Same difference.

Bethere
02-05-2017, 07:11 PM
Same difference.

Ask yourself why liberals stayed away from this exercise in droves.

Chris
02-05-2017, 07:15 PM
Ask yourself why liberals stayed away from this exercise in droves.

Go back to OP. Do not collect $200. Read OP.

Bethere
02-05-2017, 07:19 PM
Go back to OP. Do not collect $200. Read OP.

Have a nice day.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 07:37 PM
Ask yourself why liberals stayed away from this exercise in droves.

You told us Friday that you had things to discuss on this thread, did you not? This thread is for all members, feel free to join in.


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resister
02-05-2017, 07:43 PM
Here is a good test for a troll. Several key posters are on temporary ban right now. There seems to be a corresponding drop in trolling? ..........Just sayin...

Mister D
02-05-2017, 07:46 PM
Here is a good test for a troll. Several key posters are on temporary ban right now. There seems to be a corresponding drop in trolling? ..........Just sayin...
I was about to say something along those lines. It's true. I was glad to see action taken against consistently worthless commentary the sole intent of which is to mock or ridicule other members. There are several members whose entire contribution consists of such commentary. The forum is better without them.

resister
02-05-2017, 07:47 PM
I was about to say something along those lines. It's true. I was glad to see action taken against consistently worthless commentary the sole intent of which is to mock or ridicule other members. There are several members whose entire contribution consists of such commentary. The forum is better without them.
Abso freakin lutely!!!!!

Bethere
02-05-2017, 07:52 PM
Ask yourself why liberals stayed away from this exercise in droves.


You told us Friday that you had things to discuss on this thread, did you not? This thread is for all members, feel free to join in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Answer my question and I might.

What do you suppose would happen if we let Congress pick congressmen, presidents pick presidents, and judges pick judges?

I promise that this is relevant.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 07:56 PM
Answer my question and I might.

What do you suppose would happen if we let Congress pick congressmen, presidents pick presidents, and judges pick judges?

Ahh. Now I see why you're not interested. Forget I asked.


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Bethere
02-05-2017, 07:58 PM
Ahh. Now I see why you're not interested. Forget I asked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand your point. Please clarify.

My theme is, I believe, the longest standing theme made in town hall threads. I believe it was town hall one, post one.

It's never been addressed. That's not good faith.

In the spirit of continuity I deserve an answer.

Thanks.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 08:01 PM
I don't understand your point. Please clarify.

Thanks.

The structure of the VIP's and Mods is not the topic of this thread. I do not wish to encourage you to post off topic.


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Chris
02-05-2017, 08:03 PM
Sounds like an old movie called "one flew over the cuckoo nest". You DO NOT want a human being with a badge to have this kind of power. The only members who would survive would be the ones who can conform to WAY TOO MUCH power. Never suggest to the government that they need more power, because they will surely take you up on it. The people should always demand transparency, since the government is most interested in the interests of the government. Please be careful what you wish for.


We're not the government. It's a private forum. We're not going to create robots to moderate. We will use of best judgments.


I don't understand your point. Please clarify.

My theme is, I believe, the longest standing theme made in town hall threads. I believe it was town hall one, post th one.

It's never been addressed.


In the spirit of continuity I deserve an answer.

Thanks.


A forum is not a government. This forum is private. There, now it's been addressed again.

Bethere
02-05-2017, 08:06 PM
The structure of the VIP's and Mods is not the topic of this thread. I do not wish to encourage you to post off topic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok.

Announcing the 2nd tPF Town Hall 02/04-05/2017. So get you thoughts, ideas, opinions, feedback, paise, complaints together.

Bethere
02-05-2017, 08:08 PM
A forum is not a government. This forum is private. There, now it's been addressed again.

Now you know where all the liberals are.

Thanks be to ravens fan for asking me to join in. He is forcing me to reevaluate him.

Chris
02-05-2017, 08:14 PM
Now you know where all the liberals are.

Thanks be to ravens fan for asking me to join in. He is forcing me to reevaluate him.

What, looking for government in all the wrong places.

Your here. Just not joining in discussion of the topic.

Hurry, closing shop soon...

Chris
02-05-2017, 08:16 PM
Now you know where all the liberals are.

Thanks be to ravens fan for asking me to join in. He is forcing me to reevaluate him.

And the follow up: "OK, so let's open this up to discussion. Forum rules apply. Remember the topic is the forum, not any specific moderation action or grievance, and not any particular member. And try to keep negative criticism constructive."

Discuss the forum. It's not a government.

Tahuyaman
02-05-2017, 08:19 PM
Sounds like an old movie called "one flew over the cuckoo nest". You DO NOT want a human being with a badge to have this kind of power. The only members who would survive would be the ones who can conform to WAY TOO MUCH power. Never suggest to the government that they need more power, because they will surely take you up on it. The people should always demand transparency, since the government is most interested in the interests of the government. Please be careful what you wish for.. This is an internet message board, not the FBI. No one here can abuse anyone's civil
rights. If you disapprove of the rules here, you are free to develop your own site based on your rules.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 08:20 PM
Now you know where all the liberals are.

Thanks be to ravens fan for asking me to join in. He is forcing me to reevaluate him.

I would love to hear what you have to say, but we must limit it to working within the structure we already have.

How do you feel about the issues I was asking Cletus about? How are we doing in addressing trolling? Any new sections you would like to see? Any ideas towards OtSS area? Are we moderating in a fair and transparent manner, in your view?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

resister
02-05-2017, 08:23 PM
I would love to hear what you have to say, but we must limit it to working within the structure we already have.

How do you feel about the issues I was asking Cletus about? How are we doing in addressing trolling? Any new sections you would like to see? Any ideas towards OtSS area? Are we moderating in a fair and transparent manner, in your view?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow about a gun control section?

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 08:34 PM
How about a gun control section?

I am not sure that we need a section dedicated to a single issue, but I can bring it up in the VIP room.


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resister
02-05-2017, 08:40 PM
I am not sure that we need a section dedicated to a single issue, but I can bring it up in the VIP room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was on another political forum and they had one, it was very active, not to mention politically charged!

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 09:59 PM
The Mod team would like to thank all the participants in this thread, we appreciate all the feedback we were able to get.

This thread is now closed.

Ravens Fan
02-05-2017, 10:00 PM
.