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Peter1469
02-22-2017, 06:03 AM
Democratic socialists make headway (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-demsocialists-idUSKBN16014M)

This is what Bernie was selling.


For David Green, head of the Detroit chapter of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), Donald Trump's victory in November was both distressing and cause for optimism in his quest to pull the Democratic Party to the left.'


"We need a party that’s open to progressive forces, and that’s why we have to elect progressive leadership within the party," Green said, while attending the Michigan Democratic Party's spring convention in Detroit earlier this month.


Membership in the DSA, founded in 1982, has surged since Trump's election on Nov. 8, putting the movement in a position to make inroads on the Democratic Party's energized left. The membership gains are fueled by supporters of Bernie Sanders, the U.S. Senator from Vermont who sought the Democratic presidential nomination last year.


The DSA is not a political party, but it supports many of the same short-term policy positions as the Sanders wing of the Democratic Party: a $15 minimum wage, single-payer healthcare, free college, and opposition to free-trade deals.


But unlike most mainstream Democrats, the DSA also has a long-term vision of a democratic socialist society in the vein of countries like Sweden and Denmark, where workers have a more direct say in how their jobs and the economy are run, alongside a more robust public sector.

Read more at the link.

stjames1_53
02-22-2017, 06:59 AM
oh, boy...................

Common
02-22-2017, 07:35 AM
Soros is behind the scenes running and funding most everything.

Common Sense
02-22-2017, 08:18 AM
Soros is behind the scenes running and funding most everything.

That sounds as silly as saying the Koch brothers are behind everything on the right...

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 11:35 AM
Soros is behind the scenes running and funding most everything.

Yep, if it wasn't for that god damned George Soros we'd be living in Trumptopia where everybody loved and respected Donald Trump.

Tahuyaman
02-22-2017, 12:42 PM
The modern Democratic Party is an amalgamation of all the far left wing fringe groups in American society. They often hate each other as much as they hate the right.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 12:50 PM
The modern Democratic Party is an amalgamation of all the far left wing fringe groups in American society. They often hate each other as much as they hate the right.

Right, which is why center-right Hillary Clinton beat out democratic socialist Sanders...

DGUtley
02-22-2017, 12:52 PM
Right, which is why center-right Hillary Clinton beat out democratic socialist Sanders...

Isn't it true that the D's had to use super delegates and conspire with the media and the party brass to make sure that happened? See: Wikileaks

Tahuyaman
02-22-2017, 12:55 PM
Hillary Clinton is not nor ever was center right. Clearly she is on the left to some degree.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 01:45 PM
Isn't it true that the D's had to use super delegates and conspire with the media and the party brass to make sure that happened? See: Wikileaks

To a certain degree, but the primary was also a low turnout affair. The strongest faction in the Democratic Party is the establishment wing that follows the Clintons. It's why they are even CONSIDERING Hillary again in 2020. The majority of the party is center-right, they just throw the occasional progressive red meat to keep the masses in line.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 01:45 PM
Hillary Clinton is not nor ever was center right. Clearly she is on the left to some degree.
Clinton has always been center-right. Even in 2016 she sounded like a lite Republican.

DGUtley
02-22-2017, 01:49 PM
To a certain degree, but the primary was also a low turnout affair. The strongest faction in the Democratic Party is the establishment wing that follows the Clintons. It's why they are even CONSIDERING Hillary again in 2020. The majority of the party is center-right, they just throw the occasional progressive red meat to keep the masses in line.

Hillary may be a centrist at heart but she sure pivoted far left in the race.



Clinton has always been center-right. Even in 2016 she sounded like a lite Republican.

Now when she talked about what kind of Court she wanted. That was far left. There are those of us that think the republic our founders created would've been finished if she'd won. Yes, I know that sounds extreme, but we were on the precipice of it all.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 02:19 PM
Hillary may be a centrist at heart but she sure pivoted far left in the race.




Now when she talked about what kind of Court she wanted. That was far left. There are those of us that think the republic our founders created would've been finished if she'd won. Yes, I know that sounds extreme, but we were on the precipice of it all.
She really didn't. I mean, what was so lefty about her SCOTUS comments? Overturning Heller? That's not a right v. left issue, there are lefties that are ultra mega pro gun and righties that don't care about guns.

nic34
02-22-2017, 02:31 PM
Democratic socialists make headway (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-demsocialists-idUSKBN16014M)

This is what Bernie was selling.



Read more at the link.

a $15 minimum wage, single-payer healthcare, free college, and opposition to free-trade deals


I think even most on your side would support all that in some form or another.....

Don't take the populists lightly. If Trump can do it, the Dems can too.

rcfieldz
02-22-2017, 02:33 PM
Where does this put the Republican Socialists?

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 02:36 PM
a $15 minimum wage, single-payer healthcare, free college, and opposition to free-trade deals


I think even most on your side would support all that in some form or another.....

Don't take the populists lightly. If Trump can do it, the Dems can too.



They would have to embrace the populists, first. Instead they are talking about Hillary 2020.

Tahuyaman
02-22-2017, 03:24 PM
Clinton has always been center-right. Even in 2016 she sounded like a lite Republican.


The only way you can say that she is center-right is if you are looking at her from an extreme left wing fringe perspective.

Peter1469
02-22-2017, 03:38 PM
a $15 minimum wage, single-payer healthcare, free college, and opposition to free-trade deals


I think even most on your side would support all that in some form or another.....

Don't take the populists lightly. If Trump can do it, the Dems can too.



The populists do not fit on the old right left wing model. I imagine may of them do agree with your list.


I am a fiscal conservative. I am not for any of those things in your list. With a caveat on free trade deals. I am not for them if they screw the US. I am for tariffs to counter illegal dumping as well.

Peter1469
02-22-2017, 03:39 PM
Where does this put the Republican Socialists?

They are really democratic socialists.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 03:51 PM
The only way you can say that she is center-right is if you are looking at her from an extreme left wing fringe perspective.

:rollseyes:

del
02-22-2017, 04:01 PM
Soros is behind the scenes running and funding most everything.
he bought me a pizza just last night

ham and pineapple

Newpublius
02-22-2017, 04:18 PM
Clinton has always been center-right. Even in 2016 she sounded like a lite Republican.

The country, as a whole, spends about 40% of its income on government at all levels. The paradigm in no way resembles center right at all. Clinton calls for an expansion of that aparatus.

Tahuyaman
02-22-2017, 06:01 PM
The country, as a whole, spends about 40% of its income on government at all levels. The paradigm in no way resembles center right at all. Clinton calls for an expansion of that aparatus.


Hillary has tried to present herself as a centrist type who leans slightly to the right. I remember back when she was the First Lady, she once claimed to be a staunch conservative.

That is a big part of the reason most people believe she is dishonest and power hungry.

decedent
02-22-2017, 06:07 PM
"...In the vein of countries like Sweden and Denmark, where workers have a more direct say in how their jobs and the economy are run, alongside a more robust public sector..."


What a nightmare

NapRover
02-22-2017, 06:12 PM
Clinton has always been center-right. Even in 2016 she sounded like a lite Republican.
She has always fooled people into thinking that. Like BHO, who was in reality a radical alinsky-ite, on steroids.

Newpublius
02-22-2017, 06:42 PM
"...In the vein of countries like Sweden and Denmark, where workers have a more direct say in how their jobs and the economy are run, alongside a more robust public sector..."


What a nightmare

Democratic socialism merely replaces central planning by dictat with central planning by Congress, socialists have at least come round to the foolishness of owning the means of production outright but rather than owning the means of production outright, they now propose to centrally regulate people’s behavior, and to redistribute portions of their productive output, in preferred directions. Whether realizing socialism’s moral goals requires owning the means of production depends, then, on historical circumstances, but what will always be required is to centrally organize political-economic decision making.

Green Arrow
02-22-2017, 07:04 PM
She has always fooled people into thinking that. Like BHO, who was in reality a radical alinsky-ite, on steroids.

Really? That's amazing, because on foreign policy he was indistinguishable from a Republican and his domestic and economic policies featured a lot of Republican-esque handouts to corporations and the wealthy.

decedent
02-22-2017, 11:46 PM
Democratic socialism merely replaces central planning by dictat with central planning by Congress, socialists have at least come round to the foolishness of owning the means of production outright but rather than owning the means of production outright, they now propose to centrally regulate people’s behavior, and to redistribute portions of their productive output, in preferred directions. Whether realizing socialism’s moral goals requires owning the means of production depends, then, on historical circumstances, but what will always be required is to centrally organize political-economic decision making.



What's more "small government" than workers using collective bargaining voting blocks? I don't see this as centralized governing at all. I prefer the Rhine model, but the Norwegian model has a proven track record going back decades. They've had phenomenal prosperity by giving people more power than corporations and governments.

I'm not a democratic socialist but I am a social capitalist like Sanders. The goal of democratic socialists is to end up with a socialist economy, which doesn't work. We can harmoniously blend capitalism with social programs to create something better. Look at all the happy, healthy countries that successfully use markets and social programs to achieve their high standards of living in a sustainable way (their debt isn't increasing).

But don't just look at the qualitative data: look at the quantitative data (incomes, access to goods, liberty, infant mortality, life spans, democratic voting, due process, citizen rights, homelessness, crime, etc.). Trump keeps saying that the American economy and infrastructure is a "disaster." If this is the case, why not look elsewhere for solutions? One thing is clear, we can't go back to the 50s. (Nobody is going to be paid enough to buy a home when all they do is turn a bolt all day at work.) Those days are over to instead of looking back, look abroad.

Captain Obvious
02-23-2017, 12:10 AM
Sanders is another poor man's "socialist" where he pimps benefits that apparently grow on trees.

I watched that debate with him and Cruz, he had very little plan how economically his socialist plans would work. Very little, none to be specific.

Cruz could have hit a lot of long balls on him but Cruz is a schlep.

I'm socialist, I'm for socialism but not how it's defined in practice. In practice it's what we were heading for. A minority, controlling ultra wealthy feeding scraps to the masses for support. That's how socialism is defined now on a working basis.

Give me a pure socialist plan and I'm listening, otherwise it's snake oil.

stjames1_53
02-23-2017, 04:47 AM
Sanders is another poor man's "socialist" where he pimps benefits that apparently grow on trees.

I watched that debate with him and Cruz, he had very little plan how economically his socialist plans would work. Very little, none to be specific.

Cruz could have hit a lot of long balls on him but Cruz is a schlep.

I'm socialist, I'm for socialism but not how it's defined in practice. In practice it's what we were heading for. A minority, controlling ultra wealthy feeding scraps to the masses for support. That's how socialism is defined now on a working basis.

Give me a pure socialist plan and I'm listening, otherwise it's snake oil.

another fact: Bernie never held a regular job, ever. A lot in common with Hillary.....

Peter1469
02-23-2017, 06:03 AM
We want to look elsewhere for solutions. The free market.

We currently have crony capitalism. And agree that it does not work for the middle class.
What's more "small government" than workers using collective bargaining voting blocks? I don't see this as centralized governing at all. I prefer the Rhine model, but the Norwegian model has a proven track record going back decades. They've had phenomenal prosperity by giving people more power than corporations and governments.

I'm not a democratic socialist but I am a social capitalist like Sanders. The goal of democratic socialists is to end up with a socialist economy, which doesn't work. We can harmoniously blend capitalism with social programs to create something better. Look at all the happy, healthy countries that successfully use markets and social programs to achieve their high standards of living in a sustainable way (their debt isn't increasing).

But don't just look at the qualitative data: look at the quantitative data (incomes, access to goods, liberty, infant mortality, life spans, democratic voting, due process, citizen rights, homelessness, crime, etc.). Trump keeps saying that the American economy and infrastructure is a "disaster." If this is the case, why not look elsewhere for solutions? One thing is clear, we can't go back to the 50s. (Nobody is going to be paid enough to buy a home when all they do is turn a bolt all day at work.) Those days are over to instead of looking back, look abroad.

Newpublius
02-23-2017, 07:05 AM
What's more "small government" than workers using collective bargaining voting blocks? I don't see this as centralized governing at all. I prefer the Rhine model, but the Norwegian model has a proven track record going back decades. They've had phenomenal prosperity by giving people more power than corporations and governments.

I'm not a democratic socialist but I am a social capitalist like Sanders. The goal of democratic socialists is to end up with a socialist economy, which doesn't work. We can harmoniously blend capitalism with social programs to create something better. Look at all the happy, healthy countries that successfully use markets and social programs to achieve their high standards of living in a sustainable way (their debt isn't increasing).

But don't just look at the qualitative data: look at the quantitative data (incomes, access to goods, liberty, infant mortality, life spans, democratic voting, due process, citizen rights, homelessness, crime, etc.). Trump keeps saying that the American economy and infrastructure is a "disaster." If this is the case, why not look elsewhere for solutions? One thing is clear, we can't go back to the 50s. (Nobody is going to be paid enough to buy a home when all they do is turn a bolt all day at work.) Those days are over to instead of looking back, look abroad.

Norway has per capita oil output that cannot be emulated. The US should be compared to the EU or, if you prefer to carve out the failing PIGS, then to France, UK and Germany and all of those countries would be in the bottom quintile of states in terms of income. That includes Sweden I might add.

The outlier of course is Denmark but still Denmark doesn't compare well to say, North Jersey.

Sanders is an actual socialist at heart, make no mistake about that, he has altered his stances to be viable but make no mistake about it, you will give greater percentages of your income to the government to be spent by Congress.

The US isn't a disaster of course but it is on an unsustainable path. As America spends more and more of its income on government we are goong to donworse and worse Government spending increases and slowly and surely socialism creeps, America will not prosper with government spending at 40% of GDP. Sanders wants 50.

'Collective bargaining blocks' just a fancy word for a union of sorts. By all means, form one, I'm not suggesting anybody doesn't have the right to associate.

When the US had the Geeat Recession, we had unemployment in excess of 10% Overall that's what the social market economy produces in Europe every day, a permanent state of Great Recession.

Green Arrow
02-23-2017, 10:03 AM
another fact: Bernie never held a regular job, ever. A lot in common with Hillary.....

Incorrect. He was a carpenter.

stjames1_53
02-23-2017, 10:48 AM
Incorrect. He was a carpenter.

he's been a life-long professional politician
I've been a carpenter for ever. He did two years....not enough to become an expert carpenter (kind of hard to be a carpenter and a journalist at the same time). I suspect he operated a broom.

carpenter; journalist; unsuccessful independent candidate for election to the United States Senate in 1972 and 1974;
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=S000033
so working for two years qualifies him to have "worked"...I get it
btw, how long have you worked?

stjames1_53
02-23-2017, 10:50 AM
Incorrect. He was a carpenter.
just a footnote. I'm a carpenter. A person with two years unprovable track record gets hired in as a broom pusher.

Green Arrow
02-23-2017, 01:35 PM
he's been a life-long professional politician
I've been a carpenter for ever. He did two years....not enough to become an expert carpenter (kind of hard to be a carpenter and a journalist at the same time). I suspect he operated a broom.

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=S000033
so working for two years qualifies him to have "worked"...I get it
btw, how long have you worked?

He wasn't a carpenter for two years, that's referring to his two runs for Senate in 1972 and 1974, but now you're moving the goalposts. First you said he never had a "real" job, ever, and now you're saying he did have a real job but it wasn't long enough to meet your arbitrary qualifications.

I've been working about ten years now, but only seven of those were on any official payroll. I don't see how this is relevant.

del
02-23-2017, 03:08 PM
just a footnote. I'm a carpenter. A person with two years unprovable track record gets hired in as a broom pusher.
just a footnote.

just because it took you two years to figure out which end of a 16d should face the hammer doesn't mean others do.

Subdermal
02-23-2017, 06:36 PM
Right, which is why center-right Hillary Clinton beat out democratic socialist Sanders...

All fair and square.

texan
02-23-2017, 07:10 PM
Right, which is why center-right Hillary Clinton beat out democratic socialist Sanders...

i am going to have call a technical foul. She did not beat out Bernie. Bernie was absolutely punked by the democrate party. It was decided before Bernie popped up that she will be the nominee. Things being rigged against you is not beatting anyone. If you spot me 25 strokes Jordan Spieth couldn't beat me.

Trust me too, if the republicans had their party rigged like the Dems do with those super delegates.. I am ignoring the insiders that screwed Berni. Trump would have never been their nominee.


BTW the irony of all this Russia red herring crap the Dems keep pumping out while they absolutely 100% know Bernie was f'd is about right for dishonest people.

Green Arrow
02-23-2017, 09:22 PM
All fair and square.

Didn't say that.

Newpublius
02-23-2017, 09:51 PM
Right, which is why center-right Hillary Clinton beat out democratic socialist Sanders...

I just find it amazing how far to the left the country has drifted over the years and people still describe the paradigm as 'right wing'

Green Arrow
02-24-2017, 01:12 AM
I just find it amazing how far to the left the country has drifted over the years and people still describe the paradigm as 'right wing'

"How far to the left"? Just how far to the left do you believe this country is, and what makes it far left?

Common Sense
02-24-2017, 01:13 AM
"How far to the left"? Just how far to the left do you believe this country is, and what makes it far left?
I hear this cry a lot. How far the country has "drifted left" or the "creeping socialism". But when I ask for examples or proof, I'm told taxes are too high.