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Safety
03-06-2017, 12:55 PM
Just like the title suggests, what do you consider the GOP?

I'm not asking for any philosophical debate or master's level theses, just a simple question based upon today's politics.

Common
03-06-2017, 01:08 PM
To me the GOP and Dems represent an agenda. Each have ideals that are foremost that they pursue.

I choose which agenda I believe is better for the country "AS A WHOLE"
Keep in mind that I consider america and americans should ALWAYS come first and everything and everyone else second.

FindersKeepers
03-06-2017, 01:11 PM
I still think conservative/right but it's not what it used to be. Of course, nothing is.

I'm seeing a split along social and fiscal values that I don't think used to be so pronounced. Sometimes, something will happen, and I just gotta shake my head...other times, I'm in agreement.

I think we're seeing the beginning of a political shift, and, while I can't imagine where it's going, it's simply got to get better than this.

Chris
03-06-2017, 01:16 PM
Opinion + opinion + ... + opinion = opinion. It's not a Sorites Paradox.

Ethereal
03-06-2017, 01:20 PM
Just like the title suggests, what do you consider the GOP?

I'm not asking for any philosophical debate or master's level theses, just a simple question based upon today's politics.

So you ask people what they think of the GOP, but don't want any answers that include "philosophical debate". Nothing fishy about that request.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:21 PM
Opinion + opinion + ... + opinion = opinion. It's not a Sorites Paradox.

That's why I asked for a simple answer, not something that should go into the conspiracy forum. When you drive down the road and you see someone running for office and their sign says "GOP", do you think that person is running as a liberal or as a conservative?

Think about your answer, because there are two major parties in this country, and several smaller groups vying for position.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:21 PM
So you ask people what they think of the GOP, but don't want any answers that include "philosophical debate". Nothing fishy about that request.

Yea, because too often there are some that try to obfuscate the discussion for whatever personal reasons they have.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:22 PM
To me the GOP and Dems represent an agenda. Each have ideals that are foremost that they pursue.

I choose which agenda I believe is better for the country "AS A WHOLE"
Keep in mind that I consider america and americans should ALWAYS come first and everything and everyone else second.

Yea, that in no way addresses the topic nor poll. See post #6 for clarification.

Chris
03-06-2017, 01:26 PM
That's why I asked for a simple answer, not something that should go into the conspiracy forum. When you drive down the road and you see someone running for office and their sign says "GOP", do you think that person is running as a liberal or as a conservative?

Think about your answer, because there are two major parties in this country, and several smaller groups vying for position.


My answer is simply to say collecting opinions leaves you with opinion not fact or truth.

Chris
03-06-2017, 01:28 PM
I still think conservative/right but it's not what it used to be. Of course, nothing is.

I'm seeing a split along social and fiscal values that I don't think used to be so pronounced. Sometimes, something will happen, and I just gotta shake my head...other times, I'm in agreement.

I think we're seeing the beginning of a political shift, and, while I can't imagine where it's going, it's simply got to get better than this.



The right always shifts left. Those who lead are called RINOs.

Ethereal
03-06-2017, 01:29 PM
Yea, because too often there are some that try to obfuscate the discussion for whatever personal reasons they have.
How does "philosophical debate" obfuscate a discussion? Seems to me, philosophy tends to edify, not obfuscate.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:31 PM
My answer is simply to say collecting opinions leaves you with opinion not fact or truth.

So, I guess that'll be your lasting comment in the thread?

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:32 PM
How does "philosophical debate" obfuscate a discussion? Seems to me, philosophy tends to edify, not obfuscate.

Like you're doing now. In the other thread, you interchangeably use democrat with liberal....so, back to the topic at hand.

Chris
03-06-2017, 01:36 PM
So, I guess that'll be your lasting comment in the thread?

Unless you have something reasonable to say to convince me otherwise. Won't hold my breath. Expect distortions.

Private Pickle
03-06-2017, 01:37 PM
Like you're doing now. In the other thread, you interchangeably use democrat with liberal....so, back to the topic at hand.

To his point however; one's politics is a philosophical approach to their ideals. This is why I said "neither nor" given I view many "Conservative" ideals the GOP to have as progressive and vice versa with the Dems.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:39 PM
Unless you have something reasonable to say to convince me otherwise. Won't hold my breath. Expect distortions.

My only intention for the poll was to see if people will be honest with them-self. That's why I didn't ask for a debate on the matter, just simply in terms of US politics, when you see the term GOP used, does that person think of a liberal or a conservative. I'm glad I made it a public poll.

It kinda reminds me of a poll where someone asked if the sky was blue and lo and behold, there were some that just wanted to argue.

Ethereal
03-06-2017, 01:42 PM
Like you're doing now. In the other thread, you interchangeably use democrat with liberal....so, back to the topic at hand.
Okay, but the topic doesn't want any philosophical debate, so that means I can't really contribute much since philosophy is the heart and soul of rational political discourse.

If your intention is to prove that Republican and conservative are commonly associated with one another, then that much is obvious. However, if your intention is to prove that association is a rational one, then there is no way to avoid a philosophical debate over what conservatism really means.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:42 PM
To his point however; one's politics is a philosophical approach to their ideals. This is why I said "neither nor" given I view many "Conservative" ideals the GOP to have as progressive and vice versa with the Dems.

He may have a point, but in the OP I made it clear I didn't want too much "well, actually", or whatever given to the question. Simply, when you see the term GOP or republican after someone's name or in an ad, do you think conservative/right, or liberal/left. I only added the third option for control.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:43 PM
Okay, but the topic doesn't want any philosophical debate, so that means I can't really contribute much since philosophy is the heart and soul of rational political discourse.

If your intention is to prove that Republican and conservative are commonly associated with one another, then that much is obvious. However, if your intention is to prove that association is a rational one, then there is no way to avoid a philosophical debate over what conservatism really means.

Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted my point to be.

This thread was never about discussing how/why the GOP is not really this, or not really that. It was simply a quick calculation on what a person thinks when they see the term.

Ethereal
03-06-2017, 01:45 PM
Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted my point to be.

This thread was never about discussing how/why the GOP is not really this, or not really that. It was simply a quick calculation on what a person thinks when they see the term.
Well, I personally do not associate them with conservatism. In fact, I think they are radically anti-conservative when it comes to certain things, especially drug prohibition and foreign policy, both of which are borrowed from progressives!

Adelaide
03-06-2017, 01:46 PM
I would consider both parties to be fairly right compared to what I am used to, although Canada's right and centre might be equivalent to the Democrats in many ways. I think maybe the big difference between Canadian and US conservatives is that Canadian conservatives don't push many socially right-wing agendas. For example, they know they can't touch reproductive rights, although every so often a member will put forth a member's bill that will get squashed and won't generally have any support from their own party. The economy is mostly what matters. What people want to do in their private lives is up to them so long as it isn't harming anyone else or blatantly illegal like murder or something.

Having lived in the US for almost 2 years now, I would put a majority of the Republican party into the right-wing/conservative category, some in the middle, and I would put most Democrats in the middle with some that lean more towards the left-wing.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Well, I personally do not associate them with conservatism. In fact, I think they are radically anti-conservative when it comes to certain things, especially drug prohibition and foreign policy, both of which are borrowed from progressives!

True, but that plays into the "no true scotsman" argument. Which this thread was not designed to do.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:50 PM
I would consider both parties to be fairly right compared to what I am used to, although Canada's right and centre might be equivalent to the Democrats in many ways. I think maybe the big difference between Canadian and US conservatives is that Canadian conservatives don't push many socially right-wing agendas. For example, they know they can't touch reproductive rights, although every so often a member will put forth a member's bill that will get squashed and won't generally have any support from their own party. The economy is mostly what matters. What people want to do in their private lives is up to them so long as it isn't harming anyone else or blatantly illegal like murder or something.

Having lived in the US for almost 2 years now, I would put a majority of the Republican party into the right-wing/conservative category, some in the middle, and I would put most Democrats in the middle with some that lean more towards the left-wing.

Yes, and that discussion has been debated here many times over the three years I have been here. I know it seems obvious, but it seems like some have a hangup about assigning labels, but that was not the intention. I'm not asserting that right/conservative must be GOP, or left/liberal must be democrat, I just wanted to see if there was any one that considered the GOP to be something other than right/conservative.

Ethereal
03-06-2017, 01:55 PM
True, but that plays into the "no true scotsman" argument. Which this thread was not designed to do.
But that's my honest, personal opinion, which is what you seemed to be asking for. The foreign policy of modern day Republicans can be traced back to Woodrow Wilson, who was an arch-progressive. His messianic vision - to make the world safe for democracy - has been the motivating factor behind virtually every US government intervention since WWI. That is no small thing.

Safety
03-06-2017, 01:57 PM
But that's my honest, personal opinion, which is what you seemed to be asking for. The foreign policy of modern day Republicans can be traced back to Woodrow Wilson, who was an arch-progressive. His messianic vision - to make the world safe for democracy - has been the motivating factor behind virtually every US government intervention since WWI. That is no small thing.

I know, and I respect that opinion. But that's the reason I worded my OP the way I did by saying "today's politics".

Private Pickle
03-06-2017, 02:00 PM
He may have a point, but in the OP I made it clear I didn't want too much "well, actually", or whatever given to the question. Simply, when you see the term GOP or republican after someone's name or in an ad, do you think conservative/right, or liberal/left. I only added the third option for control.
I suppose for me it depends on who it is specifically.

For example both McCain and Ryan are in the GOP but I look at them as having little in common politically.

Peter1469
03-06-2017, 04:14 PM
I put neither or both. Because the US has largely a winner take all system there are two major parties that are really coalitions of many smaller parties. The GOP has at least 4 main groups.

- Neocons: these guys lean left in the classic sense of the word. Especially in foreign policy. They evolved in the 1960s and reached the halls of power in the late 1980s. They have roots in Wilsonian liberalism / idealism. They currently will vote with the conservatives because they left the Democratic party in discuss over that parties changes in its foreign policy platform during Vietnam.

- Blue Boolds: the establishment (not capital E) class of wealthy North-Easterners. They are certainly right wing in a traditional sense of the word. In modern American politics they are moderates.

- Religious right: they approve of statism just as zealously as the left does, but for social reasons. I do not believe statism and conservativism can possibly mix. These guys are leftists; they just don't know it.

- Fiscal conservatives: lean right on economics and government; lean a bit left on social issues; strong supporters of federalism. Libertarians mix with this group.

Safety
03-06-2017, 04:31 PM
I put neither or both. Because the US has largely a winner take all system there are two major parties that are really coalitions of many smaller parties. The GOP has at least 4 main groups.

- Neocons: these guys lean left in the classic sense of the word. Especially in foreign policy. They evolved in the 1960s and reached the halls of power in the late 1980s. They have roots in Wilsonian liberalism / idealism. They currently will vote with the conservatives because they left the Democratic party in discuss over that parties changes in its foreign policy platform during Vietnam.

- Blue Boolds: the establishment (not capital E) class of wealthy North-Easterners. They are certainly right wing in a traditional sense of the word. In modern American politics they are moderates.

- Religious right: they approve of statism just as zealously as the left does, but for social reasons. I do not believe statism and conservativism can possibly mix. These guys are leftists; they just don't know it.

- Fiscal conservatives: lean right on economics and government; lean a bit left on social issues; strong supporters of federalism. Libertarians mix with this group.

Like I was discussing earlier, this is true, but not really applicable to the OP. I understand that there are many whom are frustrated with the parties, but this is setting that frustration aside and strictly going by the intent of the poll.

Basically, if you saw two names on a sheet of paper and your only guide to either one was determining whether or not they were right or left (liberal or conservative), et. al., which category would you place the one with GOP or Republican after their name?

Peter1469
03-06-2017, 04:34 PM
Like I was discussing earlier, this is true, but not really applicable to the OP. I understand that there are many whom are frustrated with the parties, but this is setting that frustration aside and strictly going by the intent of the poll.

Basically, if you saw two names on a sheet of paper and your only guide to either one was determining whether or not they were right or left (liberal or conservative), et. al., which category would you place the one with GOP or Republican after their name?
Well I don't think that there is a hills beans worth of difference between the core establishment of both parties.

I suppose people would reflexively label the GOP right and the Dems left.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 05:23 PM
When I think of the GOP, I think of a political party which is trying to be all things to all people. They no longer have any core beliefs which are non negotiable. They are trying to represent the right and everyone else other than the extreme left.

Standing Wolf
03-06-2017, 05:25 PM
Half of the respondents to this poll are seriously overthinking the question.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 05:26 PM
I suppose people would reflexively label the GOP right and the Dems left.

The GOP is to the right of the modern Democratic Party, but that doesn't take much. It also doesn't make them the home for the constitutional conservatives.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 05:27 PM
Half of the respondents to this poll are seriously overthinking the question.


Then show everyone the right way to respond.

Chris
03-06-2017, 05:27 PM
Half of the respondents to this poll are seriously overthinking the question.

And the other half seriously, and probably deliberately, underthinking it.

Captain Obvious
03-06-2017, 05:28 PM
Half of the respondents to this poll are seriously overthinking the question.

Impossibru

NapRover
03-06-2017, 05:29 PM
It's becoming less cool to be conservative. GOP means less taxes, stronger military, anti socialism, anti illegal immigration, fewer regulations. More Christians.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 05:31 PM
If I saw an R after one candidate's name and a D after the other, I would assume that the R person was to the right of the D, but I would need to validate that assumption.

I certainly would accept that as a fact with no other supporting evidence.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 05:48 PM
There are a handful of true conservatives in the GOP, but the most of them are in the House of Representatives and they are dismissed by the majority of their peers.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:02 PM
Half of the respondents to this poll are seriously overthinking the question.

Exactly. The only question is whether or not it's intentional.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:04 PM
If I saw an R after one candidate's name and a D after the other, I would assume that the R person was to the right of the D, but I would need to validate that assumption.

I certainly would accept that as a fact with no other supporting evidence.

Yet you voted neither? Why?

jimmyz
03-06-2017, 06:05 PM
How can you see who voted by user name? Safety

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:05 PM
There are a handful of true conservatives in the GOP, but the most of them are in the House of Representatives and they are dismissed by the majority of their peers.

It's not a question about true conservatives or moderates or even progressives. It is simply a question whether or not one associates the GOP with being the right or left.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:05 PM
How can you see who voted by user name? Safety

Click on the vote number.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:07 PM
So, we have several members whom have voted "neither", but their comments here say that on the surface, they would consider the GOP to the right. Why did you vote "neither"?

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 06:11 PM
Yet you voted neither? Why?
because I think that the Republican Party as a whole has no core beliefs they hold non negotiable. Like I said, nationally they are trying to be all things to all people outside of the very extreme fringes of both left and right.

Its also a geographic thing. The GOP in various states and counties across the country are vastly different from one another. A northeastern Republican is not anywhere close to a Republican in places Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska. Democrats in those states are probably to the right of them.

A friend of mine in Washington state is a Democrat, but he's possibly the most conservative elected official in the state.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:20 PM
because I think that the Republican Party as a whole has no core beliefs they hold non negotiable. Like I said, nationally they are trying to be all things to all people outside of the very extreme fringes of both left and right.

Its also a geographic thing. The GOP in various states and counties across the country are vastly different from one another. A northeastern Republican is not anywhere close to a Republican in places Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska. Democrats in those states are probably to the right of them.

A friend of mine in Washington state is a Democrat, but he's possibly the most conservative elected official in the state.

But you are taking the onesies and twosies as the norm, instead of the other way around. If your friend was not your friend and you knew nothing about him, and if you saw D after his name, would the first thing in your mind be that he was a conservative? If an R was behind his name, would you think he was a liberal? I don't think you would.

jimmyz
03-06-2017, 06:25 PM
I voted neither because I see both parties as a ruling class acting in concert for the most part. There are outliers in both parties as well.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 06:27 PM
It's not a question about true conservatives or moderates or even progressives. It is simply a question whether or not one associates the GOP with being the right or left.


Then I consider the GOP as left of center, but to the right of the Democratic Party.

Chris
03-06-2017, 06:28 PM
So, we have several members whom have voted "neither", but their comments here say that on the surface, they would consider the GOP to the right. Why did you vote "neither"?


I voted neither because I see both parties as a ruling class acting in concert for the most part. There are outliers in both parties as well.

^^That's why. Or here...

https://snag.gy/fWri8.jpg

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 06:30 PM
If your friend was not your friend and you knew nothing about him, and if you saw D after his name, would the first thing in your mind be that he was a conservative?

Thirty years ago I would have assumed that he was a stanch liberal and that the Republican was equally conservative. Things have changed in those thirty years. Both parties have shifted to the left in those thirty years.

Both embrace the concept of big government. The modern GOP just think they can manage big government more efficiently.

Safety
03-06-2017, 06:45 PM
I voted neither because I see both parties as a ruling class acting in concert for the most part. There are outliers in both parties as well.

Thirty years ago I would have assumed that he was a stanch liberal and that the Republican was equally conservative. Things have changed in those thirty years. Both parties have shifted to the left in those thirty years.

Both embrace the concept of big government. The modern GOP just think they can manage big government more efficiently.

You're still overthinking the purpose of the OP.

jimmyz
03-06-2017, 06:55 PM
You're right Safety. The GOP brand's reputation is supposed to infer that they are "conservative/right" generally. But in reality today, I cannot universally agree hence my poll answer choice. "over-thinking"? If you say so.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 07:28 PM
You're still overthinking the purpose of the OP.

You can't overthink it. At one time you could safely assume that a Republican was on the right. Now, one must be aware that the old assumptions are no longer applicable. You can assume that some Republicans are on the right, but most are not.

If you think Republicans represent the right wing view, you would me mistaken in most cases.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 07:31 PM
You're right Safety. The GOP brand's reputation is supposed to infer that they are "conservative/right" generally. But in reality today, I cannot universally agree hence my poll answer choice. "over-thinking"? If you say so.

You are correct.

Safety
03-06-2017, 07:34 PM
You can't overthink it. At one time you could safely assume that a Republican was on the right. Now, one must be aware that the old assumptions are no longer applicable. You can assume that some Republicans are on the right, but most are not.

If you think Republicans represent the right wing view, you would me mistaken in most cases.

So, you are saying that when you see someone mention republicans or GOP, they aren't speaking of the right? They would be speaking of liberals or something else?

Safety
03-06-2017, 07:35 PM
Anyway, I think we have enough respondents to see that a pattern has formed.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 08:30 PM
So, you are saying that when you see someone mention republicans or GOP, they aren't speaking of the right? They would be speaking of liberals or something else?

Today they (conservatives) aren't talking about the GOP as right wing, because the right and the current crop of Republicans don't have much at all in common.

Of course I'm not speaking for the left wing types. They may very well be under the false impression that the GOP is a right leaning organization.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 08:33 PM
Anyway, I think we have enough respondents to see that a pattern has formed.

And it seems that the pattern is that most think the GOP has abandoned its right wing roots.

Safety
03-06-2017, 08:36 PM
And it seems that the pattern is that most think the GOP has abandoned its right wing roots.

According to conservatives/right wing members. Still, I find it interesting that some can immediately think of liberals when democrats is mentioned, but the right wing conservatives here don't admit that people think conservative/right when GOP is mentioned.

Tahuyaman
03-06-2017, 09:49 PM
Most people seem to think that both major parties have shifted to the left. That's about it.

Bethere
03-07-2017, 12:31 AM
According to conservatives/right wing members. Still, I find it interesting that some can immediately think of liberals when democrats is mentioned, but the right wing conservatives here don't admit that people think conservative/right when GOP is mentioned.

Yep. You nailed the crap out of it.

Bethere
03-07-2017, 12:32 AM
Most people seem to think that both major parties have shifted to the left. That's about it.

Or half of the Republican party is seriously out of the mainstream.

Tahuyaman
03-07-2017, 12:47 AM
Or half of the Republican party is seriously out of the mainstream.

How so?

It's obvious that both major parties have moved more to the left.

Bethere
03-07-2017, 01:13 AM
How so?

It's obvious that both major parties have moved more to the left.

On the contrary, my party and half of the gop haven't moved at all.

Chris
03-07-2017, 08:53 AM
On the contrary, my party and half of the gop haven't moved at all.

IOW, their headquarters have not relocated. Go for the trivial!! Good times.

Subdermal
03-07-2017, 10:43 AM
On the contrary, my party and half of the gop haven't moved at all.

The impotent half of the GOP is the half which hasn't moved. Leadership has. On the left, the Dems have moved hard left, and very few moderates even remain.

Of course, very few Dems remain in general.

The battle at present is with the GOP leadership/GOPe, which are intransigent and fighting every move Trump wishes to make.

It's irrational to claim that the Dem Party hasn't moved hard left over the past 12 years.

birddog
03-07-2017, 10:43 AM
On the contrary, my party and half of the gop haven't moved at all.

The D party and the R party have both moved some. Since I am an America First, Constitution loving guy, and opposed to baby killing, I can't help but be a Republican/Conservative.:grin:

Tahuyaman
03-07-2017, 10:51 AM
On the contrary, my party and half of the gop haven't moved at all.

Having no party I can be more objective than you.

Tahuyaman
03-07-2017, 10:56 AM
The impotent half of the GOP is the half which hasn't moved. Leadership has. On the left, the Dems have moved hard left, and very few moderates even remain.

Of course, very few Dems remain in general.

The battle at present is with the GOP leadership/GOPe, which are intransigent and fighting every move Trump wishes to make.

It's irrational to claim that the Dem Party hasn't moved hard left over the past 12 years.


You are correct. Both major parties have moved to the left. One to the far left and the other not so far.

Chris
03-07-2017, 10:59 AM
I don't know. Had the Dems followed Sanders I'd agree they'd moved left, but they followed Clinton, the war-mongering 0.1%er beholden to corporations and banklsters, who moved right.

Standing Wolf
03-07-2017, 11:02 AM
That both Parties have made serious missteps in the recent past by pandering to extremists and special interests is undeniable. Yet the single biggest problem in this whole discussion is the essential impossibility of any meaningful number of individuals being able to agree on exactly what "Conservative" and "Liberal" even mean. Add to that the confusion factor that not only is it possible for one person to hold, without contradiction or hypocrisy, both (what are traditionally held to be) conservative and liberal views simultaneously, the great majority of Americans can, in fact, be described that way.

Tahuyaman
03-09-2017, 01:39 PM
There is one major thing both the GOP and DNC agree on 100%. Bipartisanship is exemplified best by Republicans compromising conservative principles.

Chris
03-09-2017, 01:47 PM
That both Parties have made serious missteps in the recent past by pandering to extremists and special interests is undeniable. Yet the single biggest problem in this whole discussion is the essential impossibility of any meaningful number of individuals being able to agree on exactly what "Conservative" and "Liberal" even mean. Add to that the confusion factor that not only is it possible for one person to hold, without contradiction or hypocrisy, both (what are traditionally held to be) conservative and liberal views simultaneously, the great majority of Americans can, in fact, be described that way.

When the tradition you refer to is classical liberalism, that's true.