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Ethereal
03-21-2017, 08:23 PM
Newly Obtained Documents Prove: Key Claim of Snowden’s Accusers Is a Fraud (https://theintercept.com/2017/03/21/newly-obtained-documents-prove-key-claim-of-snowdens-accusers-is-a-fraud/?comments=1#comments)

Glenn Greenwald
March 21 2017, 5:23 a.m.

(updated below)

FOR ALMOST FOUR years, a cottage industry of media conspiracists has devoted itself to accusing Edward Snowden of being a spy for either Russia and/or China at the time he took and then leaked documents from the National Security Agency. There has never been any evidence presented to substantiate this accusation.

In lieu of evidence, the propagators of this accusation have relied upon the defining tactic of tawdry conspiracists everywhere: relentless repetition of rumor and innuendo based on alleged inconsistencies until it spreads far enough through the media ecosystem to take on the appearance of being credible. In this case, there was one particular fiction — about where Snowden spent his first 11 days after arriving in Hong Kong — which took on particular significance for this group.

They insist that Snowden, contrary to what he has always maintained, did not check into the Mira Hotel on May 21, 2013, the day after he arrived in Hong Kong. Instead, they assert, he checked-in only on June 1, which means Snowden has 11 “unaccounted-for” days from the time he arrived in Hong Kong until he met with journalists at the Mira in the beginning of June. They have repeatedly leveraged this Missing Eleven Days into the insinuation that Snowden used this time to work with his Russian and/or Chinese handlers in preparation for meeting the U.S. journalists in Hong Kong.

While such reckless conspiracy-mongering is often relegated to online fringes, this accusatory fable found its way to the nation’s mainstream journalistic venues: the Wall Street Journal, Slate, Yahoo News, Lawfare, Business Insider; these media conspiracists were subsequently joined by several former officials of the intelligence community now embedded in the pundit class in affirming this tale. These outlets have repeatedly laundered and thus sanctioned the tale of the Missing Eleven Days, despite its utter lack of any journalistic basis.

[...]

After Edward Snowden exposed the NSA's domestic spying programs, the government and their lackeys in the mainstream media went to work trying to discredit him with all manner of lies and fabrications. Chief among them was the claim that Snowden's whereabouts were unaccounted for eleven days when he first arrived in Hong Kong, fueling speculation that he used that time to meet and conspire with Chinese and/or Russian agents. The only problem? That claim was false. Snowden was exactly where he said he was at that time: In his hotel room. All the pertinent documentation and explanation can be found within the article.

Among the mainstream media outlets who disseminated this false claim were: The Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, Yahoo News, Slate, The Daily Beast, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among many other supposedly reputable and credible news outlets.

And this is by no means an isolated occurrence. As anyone who reads Greenwald's column knows, the mainstream media spreads propaganda an disinformation with striking regularity (I'll post other examples upon request). Yet there are still many Americans, some of them members of this forum, who still cling to the naive belief that corporate media outlets are somehow trustworthy and objective sources of information. Even worse, they support the selective, transparently self-serving war on "fake news" supposedly originating within the alternative media. This is what a 1984 society looks like, where truth tellers are portrayed as "fake" and liars are portrayed as genuine and credible. I'm just wondering how much more fake the mainstream media needs to get before people will start admitting the truth.

Dr. Who
03-21-2017, 08:51 PM
After Edward Snowden exposed the NSA's domestic spying programs, the government and their lackeys in the mainstream media went to work trying to discredit him with all manner of lies and fabrications. Chief among them was the claim that Snowden's whereabouts were unaccounted for eleven days when he first arrived in Hong Kong, fueling speculation that he used that time to meet and conspire with Chinese and/or Russian agents. The only problem? That claim was false. Snowden was exactly where he said he was at that time: In his hotel room. All the pertinent documentation and explanation can be found within the article.

Among the mainstream media outlets who disseminated this false claim were: The Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, Yahoo News, Slate, The Daily Beast, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among many other supposedly reputable and credible news outlets.

And this is by no means an isolated occurrence. As anyone who reads Greenwald's column knows, the mainstream media spreads propaganda an disinformation with striking regularity (I'll post other examples upon request). Yet there are still many Americans, some of them members of this forum, who still cling to the naive belief that corporate media outlets are somehow trustworthy and objective sources of information. Even worse, they support the selective, transparently self-serving war on "fake news" supposedly originating within the alternative media. This is what a 1984 society looks like, where truth tellers are portrayed as "fake" and liars are portrayed as genuine and credible. I'm just wondering how much more fake the mainstream media needs to get before people will start admitting the truth.

I never believed that he was an agent of foreign government. I always thought that he was conciencious whistle-blower.

Tahuyaman
03-21-2017, 08:55 PM
I think Snowden might have done something which needed to be done, he just went about it in the wrong way.

decedent
03-21-2017, 09:07 PM
After Edward Snowden exposed the NSA's domestic spying programs, the government and their lackeys in the mainstream media went to work trying to discredit him with all manner of lies and fabrications.


Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power? He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.

Subdermal
03-21-2017, 09:14 PM
Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power? He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.

Lied?

decedent
03-21-2017, 09:18 PM
Lied?

He had an agenda when he took on the NSA job. He was an anti-government libertarian beforehand. He didn't accidentally stumble on the files, but actively sought them. I'd call this lying.

Cthulhu
03-21-2017, 09:23 PM
I think Snowden might have done something which needed to be done, he just went about it in the wrong way.
There is never a "right way" to shine a light on government treachery.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Cthulhu
03-21-2017, 09:24 PM
Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power? He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.
If it was public knowledge, then why the witch hunt for him?

Fear profits a man nothing.

resister
03-21-2017, 09:25 PM
Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power? He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.
Then why the big stink over it?

decedent
03-21-2017, 09:46 PM
If it was public knowledge, then why the witch hunt for him?

Fear profits a man nothing.

He stole national intelligence that could get into the hands of foreign powers. He also broke other laws.



Then why the big stink over it?


I don't know. Maybe people were so ignorant about their government that they were shocked to discover how it worked.


At any rate, Congress approved the programs and their budgets, which is public information.

resister
03-21-2017, 09:53 PM
At any rate, Congress approved the programs and their budgets, which is public information.
What about what was in them?

Tahuyaman
03-21-2017, 10:05 PM
There is never a "right way" to shine a light on government treachery.

Fear profits a man nothing.

There is a right way. Just as there is a wrong way.

decedent
03-21-2017, 10:09 PM
What about what was in them?

Snowden had proof that the government arbitrarily collected phone call meta data. Meta data doesn't contain content, just endpoints, times, etc. That seemed to be what most of the hype was about.

Tahuyaman
03-21-2017, 10:16 PM
Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power? He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.

I've never heard Snowden called a liar before. Also, I don't believe that what he revealed was "public Knowledge".

decedent
03-21-2017, 10:20 PM
I've never heard Snowden called a liar before. Also, I don't believe that what he revealed was "public Knowledge".

k

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:20 PM
Who said Snowden was working for a foreign power?

I am always amused when people ask questions that were answered thoroughly by the article they didn't bother to read.


He's just a lying little privileged brat who wanted glory by 'exposing' programs that were already public knowledge.

1. What did he lie about and where is your proof?

2. It is totally inaccurate to say the programs he exposed we already public knowledge. Most Americans had little understanding of just how pervasive and invasive the NSA's domestic surveillance programs were and still are.

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:21 PM
He had an agenda when he took on the NSA job. He was an anti-government libertarian beforehand. He didn't accidentally stumble on the files, but actively sought them. I'd call this lying.
And your proof for this claim is... ?

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:26 PM
He stole national intelligence that could get into the hands of foreign powers. He also broke other laws.

He informed the American people that their government was massively invading their privacy without due process of law or democratic oversight. So if anyone was breaking the law, it was the NSA.


I don't know. Maybe people were so ignorant about their government that they were shocked to discover how it worked.


At any rate, Congress approved the programs and their budgets, which is public information.

The programs Snowden exposed were classified secret and top secret, so they were not public knowledge. Some reporting had been done on those programs before Snowden exposed them but there was nothing official proving their existence. Snowden gave the American people proof of what the government was doing to them.

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:30 PM
Snowden had proof that the government arbitrarily collected phone call meta data. Meta data doesn't contain content, just endpoints, times, etc. That seemed to be what most of the hype was about.

Not true. That was only one domestic surveillance program of MANY that Snowden exposed. It just happened to be the first story journalists reported on. The totality of the evidence indicates that the NSA and other Five Eyes members (UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) are monitoring and collecting ALL private electronic communications or at least making a concerted effort to do so. Their own internal documents describe their "collection posture" as "collect it ALL". That is what the NSA says about ITSELF.

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:34 PM
NSA's own internal documents describe (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/no-place-to-hide-by-glenn-greenwald-on-the-nsas-sweeping-efforts-to-know-it-all/2014/05/12/dfa45dee-d628-11e3-8a78-8fe50322a72c_story.html?utm_term=.1ad16955fbf5) their collection posture as "Collect it All, Process it All, Exploit it All, Partner it All, Sniff it All and Know it All."

Note the "Partner it All" aspect, which means they use other members of Five Eyes (UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) to spy on Americans on the rare occasion when domestic laws get in their way. That has recently come up in relation to Trump's simplistic "wiretapping" claims.

Tahuyaman
03-21-2017, 10:37 PM
Snowden had proof that the government arbitrarily collected phone call meta data. Meta data doesn't contain content, just endpoints, times, etc. That seemed to be what most of the hype was about.


Among other things....

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:37 PM
NSA is tapped into Google and Yahoo's servers, allowing the NSA to monitor and collect every bit of information that passes through Google and Yahoo data centers, which would include emails and chats.


Reports that NSA taps into Google and Yahoo data hubs infuriate tech giants (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/oct/30/google-reports-nsa-secretly-intercepts-data-links)

I could go on and on.

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:39 PM
NSA collects millions of text messages daily in 'untargeted' global sweep (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/16/nsa-collects-millions-text-messages-daily-untargeted-global-sweep)

Ethereal
03-21-2017, 10:42 PM
Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet (https://www.wired.com/2013/08/nsa-tapping-internet/)

KathyS
03-21-2017, 11:55 PM
I never believed that he was an agent of foreign government. I always thought that he was conciencious whistle-blower.
I agtee.

FindersKeepers
03-22-2017, 04:52 AM
He had an agenda when he took on the NSA job. He was an anti-government libertarian beforehand. He didn't accidentally stumble on the files, but actively sought them. I'd call this lying.

I'd call it poor NSA vetting.

hanger4
03-22-2017, 05:40 AM
He stole national intelligence that could get into the hands of foreign powers. He also broke other laws.





I don't know. Maybe people were so ignorant about their government that they were shocked to discover how it worked.


At any rate, Congress approved the programs and their budgets, which is public information.

The NSA budget is classified short of 'house keeping' expenditures, so no.

stjames1_53
03-22-2017, 06:06 AM
He had an agenda when he took on the NSA job. He was an anti-government libertarian beforehand. He didn't accidentally stumble on the files, but actively sought them. I'd call this lying.

credible links to this outrageous claim...............