Confederate Monuments Being Removed

[Ethereal]

A couple years back I spent a few weeks in Virginia visiting with friends. One thing I have always loved about Virginia is the history that surrounds you almost everywhere you go. This was especially true of Richmond, which is one of my favorite cities. Included among its historical sites are a number of Confederate statues and buildings. I am worried that this trend of sending Confederate history down the memory hole will make its way all across the south and result in the removal or defacement of important history. Not only is this troubling because of what it portends for Confederate history specifically, but because of what it portends for American history generally. Because if the Confederacy's association with slavery and racism render its statues and buildings inappropriate for public consumption, then there is almost nothing within America's early history that will qualify as appropriate. That would include things like Thomas Jefferson's plantation in Charlottesville, Monticello. People who push these kinds of agendas really need to think hard about the precedent they are setting in trying to hide away American history.

[Hal Jordan]

Being in Richmond, this is a major concern of mine. Like the people and their actions or hate them, the monuments must remain. They must remain that we may be reminded of the past, that discussion may be had. I was talking to a Richmond tour guide that I know the other night, and she said that on one of the tours she was giving, a man from Maryland had to ask who Jefferson Davis was.

Also, if you destroy the monuments, how can people climb them and survey the city with Robert E. Lee? Right, Green Arrow?

[Ethereal]

One of my favorite things was walking around the grounds of the Virginia State Capitol:

http://deltaskymag.delta.com/getattachment/fe7bdad8-a7ce-4b7b-9129-5362f935ff53/Virginia-State-C.aspx

The building was originally planned by Thomas Jefferson although it later housed the Confederate government. To walk around it is to walk through history itself. The contemplation it inspires is invaluable. It would be devastating to see this important part of American history excised from the public landscape.

[Peter1469]

Lots of cool stuff here in Virginia. Civil War sites and lots of Confederate monuments. Plenty to the Union as well.

[Private Pickle]

History is written by the victors.

[Peter1469]

History is written by the victors.

But in this case it is the reactionary left trying to destroy history.

[Ethereal]

History is written by the victors.

The north never insisted on removing all Confederate history from public view though. That is a recent trend spearheaded largely by hyper-sensitive social justice warriors.

[del]

the only appropriate confederate monument would have been the bloated corpses of the traitors hanging in the public square.

[Ethereal]

the only appropriate confederate monument would have been the bloated corpses of the traitors hanging in the public square.
It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.

[del]

It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.
i'd settle for hanging their descendants and leaving the statues.

[Hal Jordan]

It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.
In fact, it actually makes it more important to preserve it. I guess they want it to happen again.

[Ethereal]

i'd settle for hanging their descendants and leaving the statues.
How generous of you... :rollseyes:

[Peter1469]

It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.

Put me in that box.

[Ethereal]

My mother's side of the family came to Virginia as early as 1699. My grandmother and my uncles (among other relatives) still live there. When I was young and apolitical, I visited them every couple of years and each time I would come across Confederate symbolism, memorabilia, statues, buildings, etc. To me, they were just historical curiosities. They didn't have any political meaning or connotations as far as I could tell. It's only after people inject their own politics into the situation that it becomes problematic. People need to learn how to separate their own politics from history.

[Ethereal]

If politics and history are inextricable, then what does that mean for Roman history? Is the Coliseum a wonder of the world or a monument to mass death and enslavement? Is Hadrian's Wall an ancient structure that inspires curiosity and thought, or is it a remnant of violent conquest and oppression? I largely detest the politics of the Roman Empire, but I appreciate and enjoy the value of its history. We should take a similar view of our own history otherwise none of it will be safe from the memory hole.

[Safety]

It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.

I'm pretty sure there are some swastikas still flying on the state building in Germany, right? I mean, just as a reminder of their heritage....

[Newpublius]

That generation littered the landscape with monuments because the conflict was THAT important and its consequences were very much that important as well. What people forget was the relatively velvet peace which was absolutely necessary for the country to continue. The country needed Johnston to be a pall bearer at Sherman's funeral and Sherman is no saint either. They needed Wheeler to participate in the Spanish-American War with the Union, not against it.

[Green Arrow]

I'm pretty sure there are some swastikas still flying on the state building in Germany, right? I mean, just as a reminder of their heritage....

I don't think the comparison is apt.

[Safety]

I don't think the comparison is apt.

It would probably depend on who you ask and their background.

[Green Arrow]

It would probably depend on who you ask and their background.

Sure, that's true of anything.

[Safety]

Sure, that's true of anything.

So, in my humble opinion, I stand by my statement.

[Ethereal]

I'm pretty sure there are some swastikas still flying on the state building in Germany, right? I mean, just as a reminder of their heritage....

Germany still has concentration camps you can visit. Maybe they should get rid of those? Wouldn't want to trigger anyone.

Either way, comparing Nazi Germany to the Confederate South is pretty ridiculous. There is a direct line between the Confederacy and the founding fathers themselves. You cannot erase one without jeopardizing the other. And since you're such a big fan of consistency, you might want to think about what it means to purge Confederate history from public view.

[Ethereal]

It would probably depend on who you ask and their background.
Did the Confederacy attempt to exterminate the black race and systematically murder millions of innocents in the process? No? Then the comparison is not apt.

[DGUtley]

Didn't the Nazi's destroy all evidence of the past that they didn't agree with?

[Standing Wolf]

The north never insisted on removing all Confederate history from public view though. That is a recent trend spearheaded largely by hyper-sensitive social justice warriors.

Some folks apparently want to make the whole world a "safe space".

Many Liberals think the whole thing is ridiculous and wrong-headed too, though, lest someone try to tar us all with the same brush.

[Newpublius]

It would probably depend on who you ask and their background.

Let's remove all American symbols then. Slavery was protected for far longer than under the Confederacy complete with a Native American genocide. Nazi Germany is evil, for sure, but is it morally superior, in principle, to the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese empires? Just a body count really.

[del]

How generous of you... :rollseyes:

i can't disagree

[Newpublius]

Did the Confederacy attempt to exterminate the black race and systematically murder millions of innocents in the process? No? Then the comparison is not apt.

Indeed, and the issue simply fails to appreciate the necessary post-war reconciliation.

[Safety]

Germany still has concentration camps you can visit. Maybe they should get rid of those? Wouldn't want to trigger anyone.

Either way, comparing Nazi Germany to the Confederate South is pretty ridiculous. There is a direct line between the Confederacy and the founding fathers themselves. You cannot erase one without jeopardizing the other. And since you're such a big fan of consistency, you might want to think about what it means to purge Confederate history from public view.

And the US still has museums you can visit. How many WWII reenactments have the Germans participated in to make sure their heritage is never forgotten?


Did the Confederacy attempt to exterminate the black race and systematically murder millions of innocents in the process? No? Then the comparison is not apt.

We don't have an accurate number of how many blacks were killed here or on the trip over here, do we? While the comparasion may not be apt to you and several others, it is to me. I'm not trying to change your mind, so I would appreciate it if you would not try to change mine.

[Safety]

Let's remove all American symbols then. Slavery was protected for far longer than under the Confederacy complete with a Native American genocide. Nazi Germany is evil, for sure, but is it morally superior, in principle, to the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese empires? Just a body count really.

Ok.

[Newpublius]

It's possible to hate everything the Confederates did and stood for without demanding that all Confederate history be removed from public view.

In its inception, the nation stands for lofty ideals it has not lived up to. By the standard applied to removing Confederate memorials, the same standard also apply to Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Jefferson Davis, William McKinley, FDR and so on.

[Standing Wolf]

It would probably depend on who you ask and their background.

If a Black person were being asked to bow down to, or in some way to honor that statue, plaque or monument, or the person or persons it represented, I would not be insensitive to that individual's feelings...but that isn't happening. The monuments are, as others have noted, historical markers - to show where we as a people have been; no one is being asked to lay flowers on Jefferson Davis' grave or genuflect before an image of Robert E. Lee.

[Newpublius]

Germany still has concentration camps you can visit. Maybe they should get rid of those? Wouldn't want to trigger anyone.

Either way, comparing Nazi Germany to the Confederate South is pretty ridiculous. There is a direct line between the Confederacy and the founding fathers themselves. You cannot erase one without jeopardizing the other. And since you're such a big fan of consistency, you might want to think about what it means to purge Confederate history from public view.

Or maybe they should close VW and/or the autobahn too, right?

[Newpublius]

The north never insisted on removing all Confederate history from public view though. That is a recent trend spearheaded largely by hyper-sensitive social justice warriors.

In fact in the spirit of post war reconciliation it was absolutely encourages and in places like Gettysburg the former generals would actually argue placement as a past point of honor, ie how far did a particular unit advance, or the like and there were commisions on this.

Ironically, Sickles, who should have something apparently embezzled the money for his monument, so I guess we can't have Sickles!

[Safety]

If a Black person were being asked to bow down to, or in some way to honor that statue, plaque or monument, or the person or persons it represented, I would not be insensitive to that individual's feelings...but that isn't happening. The monuments are, as others have noted, historical markers - to show where we as a people have been; no one is being asked to lay flowers on Jefferson Davis' grave or genuflect before an image of Robert E. Lee.

What money is being used to preserve these monuments? Is it private charities or tax payer's?

[Safety]

Or maybe they should close VW and/or the autobahn too, right?

The one in Mexico, or the one in Germany?

[DGUtley]

What money is being used to preserve these monuments? Is it private charities or tax payer's?

In Ohio, the locally funded park districts frequently do it.

[Green Arrow]

So, in my humble opinion, I stand by my statement.

That's fair.

So, let me ask...would you favor removing all displays of the Confederate flag, and all monuments to Confederate individuals?

[Green Arrow]

Didn't the Nazi's destroy all evidence of the past that they didn't agree with?

Yes, but I think we should be very careful about going down that road. It would be much too easy (and in bad faith and bad taste, I might add) to start throwing that label around given the discussion at hand and I think that path should be avoided at all costs.

[Peter1469]

What money is being used to preserve these monuments? Is it private charities or tax payer's?
Private charities such as the Daughters of the Confederacy as one example. Although their are still some Confederate graveyards maintained by the VA, I believe.

[Ethereal]

And the US still has museums you can visit. How many WWII reenactments have the Germans participated in to make sure their heritage is never forgotten?

Your question wrongly presupposes that Nazi Germany and the Confederacy are comparable.


We don't have an accurate number of how many blacks were killed here or on the trip over here, do we?

The transatlantic slave trade was banned in 1808, fifty-three years before the civil war. And slaves, being extremely expensive, were rarely killed. Killing a slave would be the financial equivalent of burning down your own house. Were slaves killed? Unquestionably, but it was not the result of a systematic and intentional campaign of genocide, but of random, isolated factors. That is a HUGE difference.


While the comparasion may not be apt to you and several others, it is to me. I'm not trying to change your mind, so I would appreciate it if you would not try to change mine.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm giving you my opinion. The Nazis intentionally sought to exterminate an entire race and systematically murdered millions in the process. The Jewish population of Europe declined by about 60% as a result of the Holocaust:

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/02/FT_15.02.04_JewsEurope200px.png
By comparison, the population of blacks in America, free and slave, INCREASED by a factor of six to eight between 1790 and 1860 (https://eh.net/encyclopedia/slavery-in-the-united-states/).

There is simply NO COMPARISON.

[del]

confederates: we're not as bad as the nazis.

say it loud and say it proud.

[Green Arrow]

The one in Mexico, or the one in Germany?

Heh.

[Safety]

That's fair.

So, let me ask...would you favor removing all displays of the Confederate flag, and all monuments to Confederate individuals?

I would not be in favor of that action. Individuals should have the right to display whatever they choose to on their privately owned property. However, I would not support any federal tax funded location or any Georgia state tax funded location, be it a school, government building, park, etc., etc. to fly the confederate flag. The only exception to that I have would be museums and statues already in place.

[Ethereal]

confederates: we're not as bad as the nazis.

say it loud and say it proud.

It's nothing to do with pride. It's about historical accuracy. The Confederacy was nowhere near as bad as the Nazis. To compare them is an insult to the millions of people who were murdered during the Holocaust. The European Jewish population never recovered. By contrast, the population of black Americans has never stopped growing.

[Ethereal]

I would not be in favor of that action. Individuals should have the right to display whatever they choose to on their privately owned property. However, I would not support any federal tax funded location or any Georgia state tax funded location, be it a school, government building, park, etc., etc. to fly the confederate flag. The only exception to that I have would be museums and statues already in place.

I'm fine with no taxes being put towards any Confederate site. I just don't want them taken down.

[Green Arrow]

I would not be in favor of that action. Individuals should have the right to display whatever they choose to on their privately owned property. However, I would not support any federal tax funded location or any Georgia state tax funded location, be it a school, government building, park, etc., etc. to fly the confederate flag. The only exception to that I have would be museums and statues already in place.

Fair enough. So, for example, if the state of Georgia wanted to build a new monument to Major General Joseph Wheeler, you would oppose that, but the state of Georgia maintaining an existing monument to Wheeler is fine with you? For clarification.

[Ethereal]

How many native Americans did the heroic General Sherman exterminate? Just curious.

[del]

looking at all the posts extolling the virtues of general sherman makes it easy to understand why the above post isn't a complete non sequitur

[Safety]

Your question wrongly presupposes that Nazi Germany and the Confederacy are comparable.



The transatlantic slave trade was banned in 1808, fifty-three years before the civil war. And slaves, being extremely expensive, were rarely killed. Killing a slave would be the financial equivalent of burning down your own house. Were slaves killed? Unquestionably, but it was not the result of a systematic and intentional campaign of genocide, but of random, isolated factors. That is a HUGE difference.



I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm giving you my opinion. The Nazis intentionally sought to exterminate an entire race and systematically murdered millions in the process. The Jewish population of Europe declined by about 60% as a result of the Holocaust:

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/02/FT_15.02.04_JewsEurope200px.png
By comparison, the population of blacks in America, free and slave, INCREASED by a factor of six to eight between 1790 and 1860 (https://eh.net/encyclopedia/slavery-in-the-united-states/).

There is simply NO COMPARISON.

I disagree, for I can argue, and actually I will argue, that just based upon the color of one's skin that the systematic oppression, blatant racism and harassment that existed from when the first slave arrived on this shore, until 1967, can be considered a worse situation to be in vs being killed. When you factor in the psychological effects of generational helplessness and knowing there is no other station in life you will achieve, who is to say death would not be a better alternative?

Not to even take into account the realization that in 2017 we still have the discussions about how it may not have been "that" bad to be a slave.

[Ethereal]

looking at all the posts extolling the virtues of general sherman makes it easy to understand why the above post isn't a complete non sequitur
Nobody is extolling the virtues of the Confederacy either. We're objecting to erasing Confederate history from public view.

[Ethereal]

I disagree, for I can argue, and actually I will argue, that just based upon the color of one's skin that the systematic oppression, blatant racism and harassment that existed from when the first slave arrived on this shore, until 1967, can be considered a worse situation to be in vs being killed. When you factor in the psychological effects of generational helplessness and knowing there is no other station in life you will achieve, who is to say death would not be a better alternative?

Not to even take into account the realization that in 2017 we still have the discussions about how it may not have been "that" bad to be a slave.

Who is to say? How about the people who actually lived through those times and did not kill themselves? Apparently, they thought living under bad conditions was preferable to being hauled off into a concentration camp and murdered. Who would have figured?

[Safety]

Fair enough. So, for example, if the state of Georgia wanted to build a new monument to Major General Joseph Wheeler, you would oppose that, but the state of Georgia maintaining an existing monument to Wheeler is fine with you? For clarification.

Well, Gen. Wheeler may be an exception, for he was born in the same city I was born in, and he is the only general that I know of that fought on both sides.

[del]

Nobody is extolling the virtues of the Confederacy either. We're objecting to erasing Confederate history from public view.
and inquiring how many native americans sherman killed furthers that noble goal, i'm sure.

[Ethereal]

and inquiring how many native americans sherman killed furthers that noble goal, i'm sure.

It does. It draws attention to the kind of precedent that is being established with regards to erasing Confederate history. If the Confederates are a legitimate target because of their association with white supremacy and slavery, then so is almost every other aspect of American history.

[Bethere]

I'm pretty sure there are some swastikas still flying on the state building in Germany, right? I mean, just as a reminder of their heritage....

In cathedrals throughout Europe there are ancient reliefs of jews doing it with pigs called Judensau. Disgusting stuff that explains much about the final solution.

[Safety]

It does. It draws attention to the kind of precedent that is being established with regards to erasing Confederate history. If the Confederates are a legitimate target because of their association with white supremacy and slavery, then so is almost every other aspect of American history.

Nobody is saying otherwise, however, be as it may, trying to bring native Americans into the discussion doesn't help the argument that many stories of American history is based upon the notion of white supremacy.

[Bethere]

Nobody is extolling the virtues of the Confederacy either. We're objecting to erasing Confederate history from public view.

How about renaming all of the military installations named after confederate traitors? Would you agree to that?

http://time.com/3932914/army-bases-confederate/

[Newpublius]

Well, Gen. Wheeler may be an exception, for he was born in the same city I was born in, and he is the only general that I know of that fought on both sides.

Well Wheeler didn't quite fight for both sides he simply fought with the United States as late as the Spanish-American War, Lee's son was also in some position in Cuba as well btw. The point I am trying to make is that as soon as Lee's soldiers are given parole by Grant, obviously Johnston does shortly follow to Sherman, the nation needs to heal. And it doesn't heal by conquest, it heals with a velvet peace, ie we shall become brothers again, we will honor our side, you will honor your side and neither side will not only not lourdr it over the other side but will actually HONOR, within limits, there are absolutely limits here, the other.

That of course is symbolized by Johnston being a pall.bearer at Sherman's funeral, on a cold, damp day, when Johnston himself caught cold and apparently died ftom pneumonia shortly thereafter.

The spirit of post war reconciliation is itself important becaise without it the nation would likely have perished results of the war notwithstanding.

[Safety]

In cathedrals throughout Europe there are ancient reliefs of jews doing it with pigs called Judensau. Disgusting stuff that explains much about the final solution.

Propaganda 101, before any action is taken, sway the populace into believing those that you want to disenfranchise are lower than human. It makes it easier to accept their plight.

I.e. Don't focus on the police shooting unarmed black men as it being an issue, make it about why those black men are stopped by the police in the first place.

Don't focus on Muslim extremism and the cowards that act on it, castigate the entire community as being extremism.

Don't focus on Jews being systematically treated as not worthy to be in their society, highlight the fact that Jews kidnapped small children because they need the blood of a Christian child.

Propaganda.

[Peter1469]

How about renaming all of the military installations named after confederate traitors? Would you agree to that?

http://time.com/3932914/army-bases-confederate/


A lot of the bases in the US are named after Confederate generals. I know of no relevant movement in the US army to change them.

[Standing Wolf]

What money is being used to preserve these monuments? Is it private charities or tax payer's?

C'mon, Safety, you're really stretching now. Do all taxpayers have to agree with the function or message of every bit of public property? Do we do away with war memorials because they involve armed conflict, which is opposed by all of the peace churches, pacifists and conscientious objectors? Do those people get to demand that those monuments be done away with because tax money goes for their upkeep?

[Safety]

C'mon, Safety, you're really stretching now. Do all taxpayers have to agree with the function or message of every bit of public property? Do we do away with war memorials because they involve armed conflict, which is opposed by all of the peace churches, pacifists and conscientious objectors? Do those people get to demand that those monuments be done away with because tax money goes for their upkeep?

You don't think it's a valid concern? We constantly have discussions about how people don't want their tax dollars to support things they don't approve of, like abortion, I don't see how this is any different.

[Green Arrow]

Well, Gen. Wheeler may be an exception, for he was born in the same city I was born in, and he is the only general that I know of that fought on both sides.

But in general? :tongue:

[Cthulhu]

But in this case it is the reactionary left trying to destroy history.
Destroying history, no matter how unpopular is not uncommon for Invaders, or tossing tyrannical despots.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Peter1469]

Destroying history, no matter how unpopular is not uncommon for Invaders, or tossing tyrannical despots.

Fear profits a man nothing.

Right. But these tools are not conquerors, they are pussies who have the ear of the "media." It is the revenge of the nerds.

[Dr. Who]

The north never insisted on removing all Confederate history from public view though. That is a recent trend spearheaded largely by hyper-sensitive social justice warriors.
I think I see both sides of the argument. On the one hand I have a problem with hiding history good or bad, however on the other hand, if you are a member of a group that was targeted for slavery and there are monuments essentially honoring an odious practice that should live in eternal shame and infamy, how does that honor the sensibilities of the citizens whose families still carry the stories of the horrors and may have to pass by those reminders daily? While I don't think any of the statues should be destroyed, those that truly represent the subjugation of people should be consigned to a museum for the next 50 to 75 years, when hopefully the narratives in families is no longer looking back at that terrible time.

[Ethereal]

I think I see both sides of the argument. On the one hand I have a problem with hiding history good or bad, however on the other hand, if you are a member of a group that was targeted for slavery and there are monuments essentially honoring an odious practice that should live in eternal shame and infamy, how does that honor the sensibilities of the citizens whose families still carry the stories of the horrors and may have to pass by those reminders daily? While I don't think any of the statues should be destroyed, those that truly represent the subjugation of people should be consigned to a museum for the next 50 to 75 years, when hopefully the narratives in families is no longer looking back at that terrible time.

Literally every "group" in history was targeted for slavery. Slavery is one of the oldest and most widespread institutions in human history. People act like the American south invented slavery and that blacks were the only ones who suffered from it. I mean, how far back in history are we supposed to go? Because nobody alive today had anything to do with slavery one way or the other. And if being associated with slavery is enough to offend people, then what will become of places like Monticello or Mount Vernon, both of which are plantations where dozens of slaves lived and worked at one time or another? I suppose we'll have to remove Jefferson and Washington's faces from Mount Rushmore as well? Where does it end?

[AeonPax]

`
`
There were no victors in the Civil War.

[stjames1_53]

I would not be in favor of that action. Individuals should have the right to display whatever they choose to on their privately owned property. However, I would not support any federal tax funded location or any Georgia state tax funded location, be it a school, government building, park, etc., etc. to fly the confederate flag. The only exception to that I have would be museums and statues already in place.

I call BS...if your neighbor had a confederate flag hanging on his property, you and yours would storm the house demanding instant removal or suffer the physical consequences. So a Right to Opinion and thought now becomes unpalatable for you.
BTW, why aren't you taking your fight to Portugal or the Dutch. They were the transporters...and why not attack Africa, cuz the natives were actively selling their enemies into slavery. Hell, if it wasn't for the Afrikaners selling their enemies, slavery would have never existed in the US.

[Safety]

I call BS...if your neighbor had a confederate flag hanging on his property, you and yours would storm the house demanding instant removal or suffer the physical consequences. So a Right to Opinion and thought now becomes unpalatable for you.
BTW, why aren't you taking your fight to Portugal or the Dutch. They were the transporters...and why not attack Africa, cuz the natives were actively selling their enemies into slavery. Hell, if it wasn't for the Afrikaners selling their enemies, slavery would have never existed in the US.

Oh? You would know what I would do if a neighbor had a confederate flag hanging on their property? That's amazing, considering that in Florida, I actually have a neighbor with confederate flags not only hanging on their trailer, but flag stickers on his truck. You can't grow a rock in this part of Florida without seeing a confederate flag, nor the part of GA where I grew up. I guess any day now will be the Safety invasion of 2017... :rollseyes:

[Safety]

Literally every "group" in history was targeted for slavery. Slavery is one of the oldest and most widespread institutions in human history. People act like the American south invented slavery and that blacks were the only ones who suffered from it. I mean, how far back in history are we supposed to go? Because nobody alive today had anything to do with slavery one way or the other. And if being associated with slavery is enough to offend people, then what will become of places like Monticello or Mount Vernon, both of which are plantations where dozens of slaves lived and worked at one time or another? I suppose we'll have to remove Jefferson and Washington's faces from Mount Rushmore as well? Where does it end?

I don't think I see where anyone has made the claim that blacks were the only entity to experience slavery. Then again, I don't know if it's intentional, but you know there are different types of slavery that existed in the world. Usually people refer to chattel slavery when speaking about slavery, because it was an institution that automatically categorized someone based upon the color of their skin as property vs indentured servitude, which was a contract someone entered voluntarily to reach America when they had no money.

I don't know, I guess it's hard for me to see your position of wanting to preserve the confederate monuments, for you see it as the worst thing that could happen to America, but you fail to see my position that the confederates fighting to preserve slavery was the worst thing that happened in America.

[stjames1_53]

Oh? You would know what I would do if a neighbor had a confederate flag hanging on their property? That's amazing, considering that in Florida, I actually have a neighbor with confederate flags not only hanging on their trailer, but flag stickers on his truck. You can't grow a rock in this part of Florida without seeing a confederate flag, nor the part of GA where I grew up. I guess any day now will be the Safety invasion of 2017... :rollseyes:

you failed to address the meat of the post:

BTW, why aren't you taking your fight to Portugal or the Dutch. They were the transporters...and why not attack Africa, cuz the natives were actively selling their enemies into slavery. Hell, if it wasn't for the Afrikaners selling their enemies, slavery would have never existed in the US.

[NapRover]

I'd like everything I object to removed. I'm just so sensitive.

[Cthulhu]

Right. But these tools are not conquerors, they are pussies who have the ear of the "media." It is the revenge of the nerds.
... yet they are getting what they want.

Fear profits a man nothing.

[Safety]

you failed to address the meat of the post:

I don't live in Portugal, the Netherlands, or Africa.

[donttread]

A couple years back I spent a few weeks in Virginia visiting with friends. One thing I have always loved about Virginia is the history that surrounds you almost everywhere you go. This was especially true of Richmond, which is one of my favorite cities. Included among its historical sites are a number of Confederate statues and buildings. I am worried that this trend of sending Confederate history down the memory hole will make its way all across the south and result in the removal or defacement of important history. Not only is this troubling because of what it portends for Confederate history specifically, but because of what it portends for American history generally. Because if the Confederacy's association with slavery and racism render its statues and buildings inappropriate for public consumption, then there is almost nothing within America's early history that will qualify as appropriate. That would include things like Thomas Jefferson's plantation in Charlottesville, Monticello. People who push these kinds of agendas really need to think hard about the precedent they are setting in trying to hide away American history.

Of course it will. Everyone knows that a confederate flag means pro slavery to this day. Oh wait, that's not what it means at all? Well anyway everyone knows that preteding history never happened is absolutely the best way to make sure it repeats itself.

[Private Pickle]

But in this case it is the reactionary left trying to destroy history.

And I'm saying they are winning...

[Private Pickle]

The north never insisted on removing all Confederate history from public view though. That is a recent trend spearheaded largely by hyper-sensitive social justice warriors.
They are now.

[Ransom]

Of course it will. Everyone knows that a confederate flag means pro slavery to this day. Oh wait, that's not what it means at all? Well anyway everyone knows that preteding history never happened is absolutely the best way to make sure it repeats itself.
:shocked:

Holy Shiit!

[Ethereal]

I don't think I see where anyone has made the claim that blacks were the only entity to experience slavery. Then again, I don't know if it's intentional, but you know there are different types of slavery that existed in the world. Usually people refer to chattel slavery when speaking about slavery, because it was an institution that automatically categorized someone based upon the color of their skin as property vs indentured servitude, which was a contract someone entered voluntarily to reach America when they had no money.

Virtually every civilization that has ever existed practiced slavery, chattel and otherwise. And virtually every ethnic and cultural group has been enslaved at one time or another. I'm of Irish and German descent, so that means my ancestors were oppressed brutally by both the English and the Romans. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape by the endless documentaries that basically venerate the Roman empire and refer to my ancestors as "barbarians", nor am I going to get angry when the President meets with the Monarch of Britain even though she is part of an institution that literally participated in the rape, murder, and enslavement of my ancestors. The Irish revolution wasn't even that long ago (1919).


I don't know, I guess it's hard for me to see your position of wanting to preserve the confederate monuments, for you see it as the worst thing that could happen to America, but you fail to see my position that the confederates fighting to preserve slavery was the worst thing that happened in America.

I never said it was the worst thing that could happen to America. I said it will create a bad precedent and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong on that score.

[Ethereal]

They are now.
If by "they" you mean an irate minority of social justice warriors, then sure. Most people probably do not care one way or the other. But they might care when this precedent reaches people like Jefferson, Washington, etc.

[Safety]

Virtually every civilization that has ever existed practiced slavery, chattel and otherwise. And virtually every ethnic and cultural group has been enslaved at one time or another. I'm of Irish and German descent, so that means my ancestors were oppressed brutally by both the English and the Romans. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape by the endless documentaries that basically venerate the Roman empire and refer to my ancestors as "barbarians", nor am I going to get angry when the President meets with the Monarch of Britain even though she is part of an institution that literally participated in the rape, murder, and enslavement of my ancestors. The Irish revolution wasn't even that long ago (1919).



I never said it was the worst thing that could happen to America. I said it will create a bad precedent and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong on that score.

Bent out of shape? I'm pretty sure if it was rubbed in your face constantly, you would address it. How many members keep creating sock accounts to denigrate Irish or Germanic people?

[del]

because if you remove a statue or a flag, all the history books suddenly go blank.

[Ethereal]

because if you remove a statue or a flag, all the history books suddenly go blank.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
--Lao Tzu

[del]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
--Lao Tzu

"it's a small world, but i wouldn't want to paint it."- steven wright

[patrickt]

the only appropriate confederate monument would have been the bloated corpses of the traitors hanging in the public square.
You had those, too, but they don't last 150 years. If we hung the traitors now there wouldn't be a Democrat Party. And, seceding from the union wasn't treason. There's nothing in the Constitution that says once a state joins they can never leave and if they try they'll face the wrath of traitors.

If I had a large farm I'd buy up the monuments being removed, put them on the farm, and open a historical park.

Two thoughts.

"Carnton is a historic plantation house (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_house_in_the_Southern_United_States) and museum in Franklin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin,_Tennessee), Williamson County, Tennessee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_County,_Tennessee), United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). The sprawling farm and its buildings played an important role during and immediately after the Battle of Franklin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Franklin_(1864)) during the American Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War). It is managed by the non-profit organization The Battle of Franklin Trust."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnton

The house served as a field house for the wounded. They treated all the wounded that came in. But, the property is being managed and developed by a trust while the management and development of Yankee lines and buildings are funded by taxpayers. It gripes their ass that Carnton gets more visitors. In one room where two surgeons did amputations their are large stains in the oak floors where the blood from amputations soaked through the wool carpet. The outline of the surgeons feet where they stood cutting are clearly visible.

And, when I did my time in the military we were talking about how we spent holidays at home. I said, "For nice weather holidays we usually went to a battlefield and learned some history and had a picnic." One of the Yankees sneered and said, "I've never been to a Civil War battlefield." "That's because you only have one or two. We had a lot."

[patrickt]

i'd settle for hanging their descendants and leaving the statues.

Ah, yes, the compassionate Bolsheviks. Why don't we just settle for hanging today's traitors, Del. Of course, then there wouldn't be a Democrat Party, would there?

[Bethere]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
--Lao Tzu

"My butt hurts."--Donald Trump.

[Safety]

You had those, too, but they don't last 150 years. If we hung the traitors now there wouldn't be a Democrat Party. And, seceding from the union wasn't treason. There's nothing in the Constitution that says once a state joins they can never leave and if they try they'll face the wrath of traitors.

If I had a large farm I'd buy up the monuments being removed, put them on the farm, and open a historical park.

Two thoughts.

"Carnton is a historic plantation house (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_house_in_the_Southern_United_States) and museum in Franklin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin,_Tennessee), Williamson County, Tennessee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_County,_Tennessee), United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). The sprawling farm and its buildings played an important role during and immediately after the Battle of Franklin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Franklin_(1864)) during the American Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War). It is managed by the non-profit organization The Battle of Franklin Trust."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnton

The house served as a field house for the wounded. They treated all the wounded that came in. But, the property is being managed and developed by a trust while the management and development of Yankee lines and buildings are funded by taxpayers. It gripes their ass that Carnton gets more visitors. In one room where two surgeons did amputations their are large stains in the oak floors where the blood from amputations soaked through the wool carpet. The outline of the surgeons feet where they stood cutting are clearly visible.

And, when I did my time in the military we were talking about how we spent holidays at home. I said, "For nice weather holidays we usually went to a battlefield and learned some history and had a picnic." One of the Yankees sneered and said, "I've never been to a Civil War battlefield." "That's because you only have one or two. We had a lot."

What's stopping you from buying a farm?

[jimmyz]

Are they removing statues of Portuguese and African slave hunters.

[Safety]

Are they removing statues of Portuguese and African slave hunters.

Yes, to the other side of the wall.

[patrickt]

What's stopping you from buying a farm?
What an ignorant question? A. I'm so old I'd be dead before the lawyers got done with the paperwork. B. My kids don't need a farm. C. I don't have the money and I'm not a Democrat so I can't have the government buy it for me.

But, if someone else bought the farm, and I was passing by, I would stop and visit it.

I remember Shiloh. We had a picnic near Bloody Pond. My grandmother explained that it was a terribly hot day when the battle raged and the wounded from both sides crawled to the little pond to drink. By afternoon the pond was so fouled by blood they couldn't drink the water. That was the first time I realize that war wasn't really like what you saw in the movies.

[Green Arrow]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
--Lao Tzu


"it's a small world, but i wouldn't want to paint it."- steven wright


"My butt hurts."--Donald Trump.

"My jeans are husky."
- Peter Griffin

[Mister D]

"My jeans are husky."
- Peter Griffin
Husky. lol Haven't heard that term in ages. I remember from when my mom would take me shopping to get my school uniforms bck in the early to mid 80s.

[Safety]

What an ignorant question? A. I'm so old I'd be dead before the lawyers got done with the paperwork. B. My kids don't need a farm. C. I don't have the money and I'm not a Democrat so I can't have the government buy it for me.

But, if someone else bought the farm, and I was passing by, I would stop and visit it.

I remember Shiloh. We had a picnic near Bloody Pond. My grandmother explained that it was a terribly hot day when the battle raged and the wounded from both sides crawled to the little pond to drink. By afternoon the pond was so fouled by blood they couldn't drink the water. That was the first time I realize that war wasn't really like what you saw in the movies.

So many excuses. Why does it always appear to be that the loudest complainers, seem to be the ones that exist on "what if's"?

[Common Sense]

Next thing you know the Germans are going to remove Swastikas from buildings and monuments. Is nothing sacred???

[Safety]

Next thing you know the Germans are going to remove Swastikas from buildings and monuments. Is nothing sacred???

Already went there, but obviously I was told it was different because...

[Newpublius]

How is Lee any morally different from Washington?

[del]

he lost

[jimmyz]

Yes, to the other side of the wall.

Is the wall named... The Real Slave makers Memorial

Or just the White Guys We Want to Blame For Black Americans Living Today Problems Memorial

[Hal Jordan]

because if you remove a statue or a flag, all the history books suddenly go blank.
You'd have a point, if the history books taught anything.

[Hal Jordan]

he lost

That says nothing about morals.

[Ethereal]

Next thing you know the Germans are going to remove Swastikas from buildings and monuments. Is nothing sacred???
Do we really need to explain why those two things are not comparable? I can give you about six million reasons why.

[stjames1_53]

Yes, to the other side of the wall.

links to your positive statement since you've stated a fact.

[Safety]

How is Lee any morally different from Washington?

Morally they were both wrong. But the thing about morals is that it's relative based unpon the era/time one lives in. Washington was from a time where the thought of negro slavery was as common as telling a gay person to just stay in the closet, while Lee's time was more enlightened on the objections to the horrors of slavery, like the recent legislation on SSM. There was a conscious decision to fight for the ending of that institution or to fight for keeping it.

[Newpublius]

Morally they were both wrong. But the thing about morals is that it's relative based unpon the era/time one lives in. Washington was from a time where the thought of $#@! slavery was as common as telling a gay person to just stay in the closet, while Lee's time was more enlightened on the objections to the horrors of slavery, like the recent legislation on SSM. There was a conscious decision to fight for the ending of that institution or to fight for keeping it.

VT abolosjed slavery before 1780, Jefferson distinctly spoke of the evils of slavery and so too did Washington, I suppose its just inconvenient to have to pay wages. See the references in thr DoI to inciting 'domestic insurrection' -- essentially the British were offering slaves freedom to side with then and some took the British up on the offer. At least a dozen of Washington's slaves fled Mt ernon for HMS Savage

[NapRover]

i'd settle for hanging their descendants and leaving the statues.

Life without tobasco sauce is too terrible to contemplate.

[del]

That says nothing about morals.

can't fool you for long

[Chris]

Morally they were both wrong. But the thing about morals is that it's relative based unpon the era/time one lives in. Washington was from a time where the thought of negro slavery was as common as telling a gay person to just stay in the closet, while Lee's time was more enlightened on the objections to the horrors of slavery, like the recent legislation on SSM. There was a conscious decision to fight for the ending of that institution or to fight for keeping it.


Did the North Really Fight to End Slavery? (https://www.thegreatfiction.com/2015/01/05/did-the-north-really-fight-to-end-slavery/)


American schoolchildren are taught two lessons about the Civil War. First, that the southern states seceded in order to protect slavery and second, that the North fought to end it. The first of these statements is largely, though not entirely, true. The Lower South states that seceded during the first wave of secession did secede primarily over the issue of slavery, although the states who seceded later did not.

But what of the North’s war aims? We know that mainstream Northerners in 1861 were content to let slavery continue to exist in the South. Leading up to the war, most Northerners did not possess markedly different ideas about race and equality than their Southern opponents did. Absent some grand northern epiphany in the spring of 1861, the idea that the North took up arms over the issue of slavery seems very unlikely.

But if slavery wasn’t the driving factor for the North, what was? Lost in many appraisals of the war is the fact that the North and the South had been in a bitter political battle for at least a decade – and, truthfully, since the 1790s. As the country expanded westward, the sections battled over which one would be able to get their citizens to the new lands first and in the greatest numbers, and thereby control the politics of the new states – for controlling state politics was the key to controlling the federal government. Political power, mundane though it may be, was the primary issue in the conflict leading up to the war.

So in fact slavery was not the driving issue, control of the federal government was.

"But Nebraska is urged as a great Union-saving measure. Well I too, go for saving the Union. Much as I hate slavery, I would consent to the extension of it rather than see the Union dissolved, just as I would consent to any GREAT evil, to avoid a GREATER one. But when I go to Union saving, I must believe, at least, that the means I employ has some adaptation to the end. To my mind, Nebraska has no such adaptation." -- Lincoln, Peoria Speech, October 16, 1854

[Safety]

Did the North Really Fight to End Slavery? (https://www.thegreatfiction.com/2015/01/05/did-the-north-really-fight-to-end-slavery/)



So in fact slavery was not the driving issue, control of the federal government was.

"But Nebraska is urged as a great Union-saving measure. Well I too, go for saving the Union. Much as I hate slavery, I would consent to the extension of it rather than see the Union dissolved, just as I would consent to any GREAT evil, to avoid a GREATER one. But when I go to Union saving, I must believe, at least, that the means I employ has some adaptation to the end. To my mind, Nebraska has no such adaptation." -- Lincoln, Peoria Speech, October 16, 1854

Of course it wasn't. Making slavery the driving issue would turn away too many supporters that were not ready to live in a society amongst freed negroes.

[Tahuyaman]

Why is it that those who are clueless about the issues which drive current events think they know so much about the issues which drove past events?

[Safety]

https://img1.etsystatic.com/134/0/5233858/il_340x270.1005731827_bjt3.jpg

[donttread]

Virtually every civilization that has ever existed practiced slavery, chattel and otherwise. And virtually every ethnic and cultural group has been enslaved at one time or another. I'm of Irish and German descent, so that means my ancestors were oppressed brutally by both the English and the Romans. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape by the endless documentaries that basically venerate the Roman empire and refer to my ancestors as "barbarians", nor am I going to get angry when the President meets with the Monarch of Britain even though she is part of an institution that literally participated in the rape, murder, and enslavement of my ancestors. The Irish revolution wasn't even that long ago (1919).



I never said it was the worst thing that could happen to America. I said it will create a bad precedent and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong on that score.

NO, no,no! You are missing the revisionist narrative completely. ONLY white males ever committed atrocities against other humans. Slavery wasn't aleady being practiced in Africa and South America long before the Eurpeons showed up.

[donttread]

Virtually every civilization that has ever existed practiced slavery, chattel and otherwise. And virtually every ethnic and cultural group has been enslaved at one time or another. I'm of Irish and German descent, so that means my ancestors were oppressed brutally by both the English and the Romans. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape by the endless documentaries that basically venerate the Roman empire and refer to my ancestors as "barbarians", nor am I going to get angry when the President meets with the Monarch of Britain even though she is part of an institution that literally participated in the rape, murder, and enslavement of my ancestors. The Irish revolution wasn't even that long ago (1919).



I never said it was the worst thing that could happen to America. I said it will create a bad precedent and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong on that score.

NO, no,no! You are missing the revisionist narrative completely. ONLY white males ever committed atrocities against other humans. Slavery wasn't aleady being practiced in Africa and South America long before the Eurpeons showed up.
And Africans didn't roll out of Africa over Neanderthal

[Cthulhu]

Virtually every civilization that has ever existed practiced slavery, chattel and otherwise. And virtually every ethnic and cultural group has been enslaved at one time or another. I'm of Irish and German descent, so that means my ancestors were oppressed brutally by both the English and the Romans. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape by the endless documentaries that basically venerate the Roman empire and refer to my ancestors as "barbarians", nor am I going to get angry when the President meets with the Monarch of Britain even though she is part of an institution that literally participated in the rape, murder, and enslavement of my ancestors. The Irish revolution wasn't even that long ago (1919).



I never said it was the worst thing that could happen to America. I said it will create a bad precedent and you've yet to explain why I'm wrong on that score.
Impossibru!!

You're a victim of slavery and stuff.

The struggle is real!

Fear profits a man nothing.

[del]

Why is it that those who are clueless about the issues which drive current events think they know so much about the issues which drove past events?
i assume it's because you just don't have the horsepower

[Peter1469]

Did the North Really Fight to End Slavery? (https://www.thegreatfiction.com/2015/01/05/did-the-north-really-fight-to-end-slavery/)



So in fact slavery was not the driving issue, control of the federal government was.

"But Nebraska is urged as a great Union-saving measure. Well I too, go for saving the Union. Much as I hate slavery, I would consent to the extension of it rather than see the Union dissolved, just as I would consent to any GREAT evil, to avoid a GREATER one. But when I go to Union saving, I must believe, at least, that the means I employ has some adaptation to the end. To my mind, Nebraska has no such adaptation." -- Lincoln, Peoria Speech, October 16, 1854


Control over the federal government was a north-south issue. The south had one big concern. I imagine the north had a lot of concerns.

[del]

the south's only issue was the perpetuation of chattel slavery.

[resister]

the south's only issue was the perpetuation of chattel slavery.I suggest reading a good history book on the issue, you are missing quite a bit!

[Mister D]

That says nothing about morals.
Sadly, I don't think del realized that . lol

[Peter1469]

the south's only issue was the perpetuation of chattel slavery.

That was a core concern. It was wrapped into honor and all that.

[del]

That was a core concern. It was wrapped into honor and all that.
you misspelled bullshit. it was the only concern.

[Bethere]

That was a core concern. It was wrapped into honor and all that.

Lol.

[Mister D]

you misspelled bull$#@!. it was the only concern.
Just got done telling us that might makes right. lol

Probably didn't realize that though. Even funnier.

[Tahuyaman]

Why is it that those who are clueless about the issues which drive current events think they know so much about the issues which drove past events?


i assume it's because you just don't have the horsepower

It would be nice if I could help you, but I can't help anyone who doesn't want help.

[del]

It would be nice if I could help you, but I can't help anyone who doesn't want help.
i'm all set for getting my lawn mown, but i'll keep you in mind.

[del]

How is Lee any morally different from Washington?


he lost


That says nothing about morals.


can't fool you for long


Just got done telling us that might makes right. lol

Probably didn't realize that though. Even funnier.

lol

[Tahuyaman]

i'm all set for getting my lawn mown, but i'll keep you in mind.

That wasn't very clever.

[decedent]

Already went there, but obviously I was told it was different because...

because reasons?

[Chris]

the south's only issue was the perpetuation of chattel slavery.

BS.

[Tahuyaman]

Do people really want to simply erase a significant part of our history? What is to be gained by pretending this isn't part of our past?

[Hal Jordan]

Do people really want to simply erase a significant part of our history? What is to be gained by pretending this isn't part of our past?
It depends on what you mean by gain. If you mean reliving it, then there's that, I guess. Only bad can be gained by such an action.

[Tahuyaman]

It depends on what you mean by gain. If you mean reliving it, then there's that, I guess. Only bad can be gained by such an action.


There's an old saying which says something like... those who forget history are destined to repeat it.

[Hal Jordan]

There's an old saying which says something like... those who forget history are destined to repeat it.
Oh, I know, and it's true. That's why I've made references throughout this thread to it. It's truly sad that people don't see this inevitability.

[Ransom]

Oh, I know, and it's true. That's why I've made references throughout this thread to it. It's truly sad that people don't see this inevitability.
Sadly, you are in a forum that just doesn't know it's history, our nation's, or anyone else's either. Never make an inappropriate comment mind you.....but our forum's overall grade in history....

is worse than an E worse than an F even, it is a G. Short for God awful.

[stjames1_53]

It depends on what you mean by gain. If you mean reliving it, then there's that, I guess. Only bad can be gained by such an action.
reliving....now that's an interesting term. In order to relive, one must have personally involved with the civil war or southern lifestyle. I seriously doubt that anyone is alive from that time. What you're actually trying to describe is an emotional tie.
Because an event that happened 153 years ago offends (emotion), they seek to destroy rather than be reminded of the cost and outcome.
Yes, racial hatred is not a good thing, but you're not going to erase it, no matter what you do. It is what it is.....
BTW, racism isn't just an American issue, is it?

[del]

BS.
that's nice, honey


Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

[Chris]

the south's only issue was the perpetuation of chattel slavery.


BS.


that's nice, honey



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech


So just as you take Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens to speak for all Confederates you take Trump to represent you.

BS, del. Don't make such stupid overgeneralizations so easy to slap down.

[del]

So just as you take Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens to speak for all Confederates you take Trump to represent you.

BS, del. Don't make such stupid overgeneralizations so easy to slap down.
you'd prefer i leave that to you?

[del]

the need of racists to romanticize the confederacy is always amusing.

[Chris]

the need of racists to romanticize the confederacy is always amusing.

The need of social justice warriors to demonize others to make themselves look good. How phony.

[Chris]

you'd prefer i leave that to you?

Don't much care what you do with your overgeneralization.

[Hal Jordan]

As with all things, the Civil War can not be simplified into one thing, even if it did play a major part. I guess, according to some, my knowledge of the facts makes me racist. That would be news to many.

[Chris]

As with all things, the Civil War can not be simplified into one thing, even if it did play a major part. I guess, according to some, my knowledge of the facts makes me racist. That would be news to many.

It certainly cannot. Recently finished Bynum's The Free State of Jones. I'd seen the movie and expected a romanticised story but instead got an academic treatments based on original sources and after war interviews--Bynum is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at Texas State University. She traces the rebellion in Jones Co back to the Regulator Movement against local elite and corrupt government in North Carolina back during the Revolutionary Period. These families carried that tradition west into Mississippi, a tradition of yeoman who farmed and raised livestock to feed themselves and sell what was leftover at market, who never owned slaves and many of who were against it. They also resisted Baptist religion revivals. These constituted in some areas a minority and in others a majority. When the Civil War came they joined so they could fight together rather than be conscripted and spread out though the army. They didn't like fighting a rich man's war and when the Confederacy passed a law whereby owners of some number of slaves were exempt dissertations rose and they rebelled and declared themselves a free state.

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens didn't represent them at all. To say he did misrepresents facts.

[Ethereal]

the need of racists to romanticize the confederacy is always amusing.
Disagreeing with del = Racism

[Bethere]

So just as you take Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens to speak for all Confederates you take Trump to represent you.

BS, del. Don't make such stupid overgeneralizations so easy to slap down.

Stupid? Phoney?

Way to set an example, Chris.

[Chris]

Stupid? Phoney?

Way to set an example, Chris.

Disagreement period seems to be bad.

Overgeneralizations are stupid.Demonizing to solicit pity is phoney.

At least I was addressing the topic.

[Tahuyaman]

As with all things, the Civil War can not be simplified into one thing, even if it did play a major part. I guess, according to some, my knowledge of the facts makes me racist. That would be news to many.

yes, if you want history to be both remembered and portrayed accurately, you are a racist.

[decedent]

The Confederate flag's final design:

http://thefamilyfirstcoach.com/wp-content/themes/famfirst/cache/images/244_iStock-White-flag-628x250-628x250.jpg

[Ethereal]

The Confederate flag's final design:

http://thefamilyfirstcoach.com/wp-content/themes/famfirst/cache/images/244_iStock-White-flag-628x250-628x250.jpg
Everyone agrees that the confederacy lost. But that is not a reason to erase all confederate history from public view. It's part of America's history and people should be able to think about that history without becoming triggered.

[Peter1469]

I am glad they lost. I am from the south, although my family didn't get to the US until 1892, I would have fought for the north had I the chance.

But I don't want to erase their history.

[Hal Jordan]

I am glad they lost. I am from the south, although my family didn't get to the US until 1892, I would have fought for the north had I the chance.

But I don't want to erase their history.
Neither did the North. The South didn't build the monuments alone.

Coming to you from the depths of inner space.

[Safety]

The need of social justice warriors to demonize others to make themselves look good. How phony.

Social justice warriors do the same good as atheists that demonize others for saying god doesn't exist.

[Tahuyaman]

Shit..... I'm preparing to come back home to the US in about a month. Getting my place ready for the summer rental season and such. I ran my passport through the washing machine and drier. It came out all shriveled up. I wet it down, covered it with a towel and ironed it. It looks slightly tattered, but I think it's going to be OK.

I was getting worried. I thought I had lost it. I searched everywhere for it for about four hours and finally found it in a pair of shorts I took out of the drier.

[Ethereal]

Controversial removal of Confederate monuments starts in New Orleans (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/controversial-removal-of-confederate-monument-starts-in-new-orleans/ar-BBAefFl)

New Orleans began removing the first of four prominent Confederate monuments early Monday, the latest Southern institution to sever itself from symbols viewed by many as representing racism and white supremacy.

Workers started removing the first memorial, one that commemorates whites who tried to topple a biracial post-Civil War government in New Orleans, overnight in an attempt to avoid disruption from supporters who want the monuments to stay, some of whom city officials said have made death threats, reports CBS New Orleans affiliate WWL-TV (http://www.wwltv.com/news/local/orleans/vigil-held-at-jeff-davis-monument/433537911?ftag=MSF0951a18).

[...]

Down the memory hole!

[rcfieldz]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/82232-Is-America-becoming-Africa-2-0

[DGUtley]

This is dangerous, in my opinion. The Nazis erased history. I don't have the answer, it's just not a good idea to deny our history.

[rcfieldz]

They think freedom is erasing history. Beware! There's something bigger happening here.

[AeonPax]

`
`
Taking down monuments is NOT "erasing history."

[rcfieldz]

You're a dope

[DGUtley]

`Taking down monuments is NOT "erasing history."

I respectfully disagree. People disagree with these monuments and what they represent in their minds. (In my mind as well, to be fair) Having said that, the wholesale, run around and take them all down is most definitely an erasure of that segment of history that those people find disagreeable. The problem with that, IMHO, is that when we forget history we are condemned to repeat it. This happens b/c we forget what can happen b/c the reminders of what did happen aren't there. I understand why people find them troublesome. It's like hiding your fat pictures or your high school pictures, you can't hide what we were.

[Safety]

I respectfully disagree. People disagree with these monuments and what they represent in their minds. (In my mind as well, to be fair) Having said that, the wholesale, run around and take them all down is most definitely an erasure of that segment of history that those people find disagreeable. The problem with that, IMHO, is that when we forget history we are condemned to repeat it. This happens b/c we forget what can happen b/c the reminders of what did happen aren't there. I understand why people find them troublesome. It's like hiding your fat pictures or your high school pictures, you can't hide what we were.

Are they also closing museums?

[Chris]

`
`
Taking down monuments is NOT "erasing history."

Been done that way throughout history, one ruler tearing down the statues of the previous ruler.

[rcfieldz]

Been done that way throughout history, one ruler tearing down the statues of the previous ruler.
So Obama is behind this eh?

[texan]

I guess we will move all the body's off Lee's plantation?

[DGUtley]

Are they also closing museums?

I'm sorry, I was unaware that all of these were being moved into museums. My apologies Safety. Thank you for clarifying that for me. While I still think that this is not a good idea, that might actually be a middle ground preservation thingy. Move all of these into museums and teach about them. Teach why they were there etc. Thank you again so much for your helpful response. DGU.

[Cletus]

We have got two threads on the same subject going, so I am posting the same response in both.

There are many people, myself included who think the destruction of Confederate monuments is wrong. It is an attempt to rewrite history. It is very Stalinesque.
Wanting to preserve history and understanding the connection many Americans have to the Confederacy and the soldiers who fought and died under its banner is not racist. I was a soldier for a long time. I recognize that even the enemy has men of honor and nobility in their ranks. Lee, Longstreet, Rommel, Giap... should these men and those who served honorably under them be stricken from history because their flag stood for something we found despicable?

[Safety]

I'm sorry, I was unaware that all of these were being moved into museums. My apologies Safety. Thank you for clarifying that for me. While I still think that this is not a good idea, that might actually be a middle ground preservation thingy. Move all of these into museums and teach about them. Teach why they were there etc. Thank you again so much for your helpful response. DGU.

I have no idea whether or not they are moving into museums, I was speaking to the idea that history is being erased.

[Peter1469]

There is a Confederate Museum in New Orleans. Not sure if there is room for the large monuments that they are removing.

[Mister D]

There is a Confederate Museum in New Orleans. Not sure if there is room for the large monuments that they are removing.

It's the size of a two family home. Not even close.

[jimmyz]

Doesn't removing the monuments taint them and lessen any historic significance they may have for future generations to understand. It's like hiding the evil personages in bronze will change history for the better. Some brave southern municipality should set aside some park space for these things. I doubt it would happen considering the PC feelers that are all about these days.

[Peter1469]

It's the size of a two family home. Not even close.

I didn't think so.

[Safety]

I wouldn't be surprised if the alt-right was behind this from the get-go to garner support from the low information voters.

[resister]

I wouldn't be surprised if the alt-right was behind this from the get-go to garner support from the low information voters.lol, the little punks dressed in black, cowardly hiding there faces....lol

[Safety]

lol, the little punks dressed in black, cowardly hiding there faces....lol

Money is green.

[Private Pickle]

Auschwitz still stands...as both for remembrance and to ensure the same thing never happens again.

[resister]

Money is green.
so is some grass...

[resister]

Auschwitz still stands...as both for remembrance and to ensure the same thing never happens again.That is a fine point the history erasers are forgetting.

[Tahuyaman]

I wouldn't be surprised if the alt-right was behind this from the get-go to garner support from the low information voters.

It looks more like an alt left thing.

[AeonPax]

I respectfully disagree. People disagree with these monuments and what they represent in their minds. (In my mind as well, to be fair) Having said that, the wholesale, run around and take them all down is most definitely an erasure of that segment of history that those people find disagreeable. The problem with that, IMHO, is that when we forget history we are condemned to repeat it. This happens b/c we forget what can happen b/c the reminders of what did happen aren't there. I understand why people find them troublesome. It's like hiding your fat pictures or your high school pictures, you can't hide what we were.
`
I live in Wisconsin so I have no vested interest in that. Nor, am I part of the archaic notion of sectionalism. However sentimental certain people are to those monumental relics, time passes. History will always record the horrors of that bloody war. If anyone in these modern days looks upon that war with nostalgia, that's their problem. That time has long passed. Time to bury it.

[Safety]

`
I live in Wisconsin so I have no vested interest in that. Nor, I'm not part of the archaic notion of sectionalism. However sentimental certain people are to those monumental relics, time passes. History will always record the horrors of that bloody war. If anyone in these modern days looks upon that war with nostalgia, that's their problem. That time has long passed. Time to bury it.

Not only that, it only breeds division and malice.

[resister]

`
I live in Wisconsin so I have no vested interest in that. Nor, I'm not part of the archaic notion of sectionalism. However sentimental certain people are to those monumental relics, time passes. History will always record the horrors of that bloody war. If anyone in these modern days looks upon that war with nostalgia, that's their problem. That time has long passed. Time to bury it.Say the same for Austwhich?

[AeonPax]

Been done that way throughout history, one ruler tearing down the statues of the previous ruler.
`
In these modern days, carving out things in rock, belongs on kitchen counters, tombstones and museums.

[AeonPax]

Say the same for Austwhich?
`
You mean Auschwitz concentration camp? I have a theory about people using Nazism as a political tool.. But I'm not in a position to adequately discuss it. Good analogy though.

[resister]

`
You mean Auschwitz concentration camp? I have a theory about people using Nazism as a political tool.. But I'm not in a position to adequately discuss it. Good analogy though.
Yes that is what I mean (my german is rusty) It is not an analogy, but a continuation of the logic you were using to remove history.

I do agree about using Nazism as a political tool, though, look how many paint political opponents as Nazis everyday here alone! Good call!

[AeonPax]

Yes that is what I mean (my german is rusty) It is not an analogy, but a continuation of the logic you were using to remove history.I do agree about using Nazism as a political tool, though, look how many paint political opponents as Nazis everyday here alone! Good call!
`
True enough but Hitler and Nazism are historical talking points most often brought up by the baby boomers. That too, shall pass.

[jimmyz]

`
True enough but Hitler and Nazism are historical talking points most often brought up by the baby boomers. That too, shall pass.

Nazism may never pass. See current Islamic-fascism for instance.

[Common Sense]

Nazism may never pass. See current Islamic-fascism for instance.
...or European far right nationalism.

[jimmyz]

...or European far right nationalism.

Exactly ^^^^

[Mister D]

Nazism may never pass. See current Islamic-fascism for instance.
There is an entire industry dedicated to making sure it doesn't.

[Common Sense]

There is an entire industry dedicated to making sure it doesn't.

Oh please...tell us more!

[jimmyz]

...or European far right nationalism.

But no photos nor video of EU far righties lining up men and boys and putting a bullet in the back of their heads.

[Common Sense]

But no photos nor video of EU far righties lining up men and boys and putting a bullet in the back of their heads.

Again? No...

[Mister D]

Oh please...tell us more!
No need. Watch the Hitler Channel.

[Common Sense]

No need. Watch the Hitler Channel.
Hmm...

[Mister D]

Hmm...
Whatever that means. Whatever you do, don't forget about Hitler!

[AeonPax]

Nazism may never pass. See current Islamic-fascism for instance.
`
It's a baby boomer term. Do you how many young folk use that analogy? None. I don't use it because it has no relevance to me or my terminology. I mean it's an age thing.

[Cletus]

`
`
Taking down monuments is NOT "erasing history."

I guess the Taliban and AQ and ISIS are wasting a lot time and explosives.

I have to wonder if the Left realizes how much they have in common with their Middle Eastern counterparts.

[Ethereal]

`
`
Taking down monuments is NOT "erasing history."

Because?

[Ethereal]

`
I live in Wisconsin so I have no vested interest in that. Nor, am I part of the archaic notion of sectionalism. However sentimental certain people are to those monumental relics, time passes. History will always record the horrors of that bloody war. If anyone in these modern days looks upon that war with nostalgia, that's their problem. That time has long passed. Time to bury it.

Who said anything about sentiment or nostalgia? This is about history and intellectual consistency. There are plenty of people who oppose everything the Confederacy stood for who still see the value in preserving its history. Why is that so hard to understand?

[jimmyz]

`
It's a baby boomer term. Do you how many young folk use that analogy? None. I don't use it because it has no relevance to me or my terminology. I mean it's an age thing.

Okay. Words aside, I'll let pictures do the analogy. One is Islamonazism and one is OG nazism.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/14/26A670D800000578-2995054-image-a-13_1426364735894.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/62/85/63/628563c0f1544d3a928e8404d44c990d.jpg

[Ethereal]

Not only that, it only breeds division and malice.

And taking them down breeds unity and love?

[Ethereal]

`
In these modern days, carving out things in rock, belongs on kitchen counters, tombstones and museums.
So statues of Thomas Jefferson belong in a museum?

[DGUtley]

`
I live in Wisconsin so I have no vested interest in that. Nor, am I part of the archaic notion of sectionalism. However sentimental certain people are to those monumental relics, time passes. History will always record the horrors of that bloody war. If anyone in these modern days looks upon that war with nostalgia, that's their problem. That time has long passed. Time to bury it.

I don't look on it at all. I am concerned when we sanitize history. It breeds recurrence. When we bury our history and relegate it to forgotten history books we'll see it resurge. We've already seen bits and pieces of it in the political correctness of our times. The silencing of speech is one example of this. We saw it in the previous administration where if you dared criticize Obama you were called a racist. We are seeing people beat for their political beliefs. We are seeing people ridiculed for their religious beliefs. These are vestiges of our past. We must remember our past or we're condemned to repeat it.

[Bethere]

We have got two threads on the same subject going, so I am posting the same response in both.

There are many people, myself included who think the destruction of Confederate monuments is wrong. It is an attempt to rewrite history. It is very Stalinesque.
Wanting to preserve history and understanding the connection many Americans have to the Confederacy and the soldiers who fought and died under its banner is not racist. I was a soldier for a long time. I recognize that even the enemy has men of honor and nobility in their ranks. Lee, Longstreet, Rommel, Giap... should these men and those who served honorably under them be stricken from history because their flag stood for something we found despicable?

They were traitors, so yeah absolutely. Rommel, while a nazi, doesn't fit on your list of traitors.

Moving the monuments makes a lot of sense. The biggest one is literally a monument to white supremacy.

[Bethere]

I don't look on it at all. I am concerned when we sanitize history. It breeds recurrence. When we bury our history and relegate it to forgotten history books we'll see it resurge. We've already seen bits and pieces of it in the political correctness of our times. The silencing of speech is one example of this. We saw it in the previous administration where if you dared criticize Obama you were called a racist. We are seeing people beat for their political beliefs. We are seeing people ridiculed for their religious beliefs. These are vestiges of our past. We must remember our past or we're condemned to repeat it.

No one is saying to destroy the monuments.

[Safety]

And taking them down breeds unity and love?

It would show that people are ready to move on and not dwell on the past. That is, if that means anything.

[jimmyz]

They were traitors, so yeah absolutely. Rommel, while a nazi, doesn't fit on your list of traitors.

Moving the monuments makes a lot of sense. The biggest one is literally a monument to white supremacy.

What are you going to do with Washington's statue on top of the US Capital Dome? He made money off the backs of slaves after all.

[Peter1469]

They were traitors, so yeah absolutely. Rommel, while a nazi, doesn't fit on your list of traitors.

Moving the monuments makes a lot of sense. The biggest one is literally a monument to white supremacy.
Rommel never joined the NAZI party.

[Bethere]

Rommel never joined the NAZI party.

He was a german though, and he served the state until his death. That makes him different, but not necessarily better, than the Confederate traitors he was lumped in with by my fellow poster.

[Bethere]

So statues of Thomas Jefferson belong in a museum?
What are you going to do with Washington's statue on top of the US Capital Dome? He made money off the backs of slaves after all.

Did Washington, or Jefferson for that matter, lead a revolution against the United States of America?

[resister]

`
True enough but Hitler and Nazism are historical talking points most often brought up by the baby boomers. That too, shall pass.
Ughh, not really, pretty sure plenty of gen x-ers use it for President Trump.

[resister]

Did Washington, or Jefferson for that matter, lead a revolution against the United States of America?Just Against England.

[resister]

He was a german though, and he served the state until his death. That makes him different, but not necessarily better, than the Confederate traitors he was lumped in with by my fellow poster.Washington was a Traitor to the crown. One mans traitor...

[Safety]

Say the same for Austwhich?

I don't recall the last time I saw germans re-enacting the gas chamber or blitzkrieg because of nostalgia. I don't see any pictures of germans flying the SS flag or swastikas behind their cars or pickup trucks trying to terrorize children's birthday parties.

[Safety]

Just Against England.

So the answer to the question asked would be no. How easy was that....

[resister]

I don't recall the last time I saw germans re-enacting the gas chamber or blitzkrieg because of nostalgia. I don't see any pictures of germans flying the SS flag or swastikas behind their cars or pickup trucks trying to terrorize children's birthday parties.Are those goalpost heavy? If so, one of your forum pals can lend a hand!

[Peter1469]

He was a german though, and he served the state until his death. That makes him different, but not necessarily better, than the Confederate traitors he was lumped in with by my fellow poster.


The German army, not the SS, was our last enemy to treat US POWS according to the laws of war in effect. He was ordered to execute US POWS and he ignored those orders.

[Safety]

Are those goalpost heavy? If so, one of your forum pals can lend a hand!

You brought up "Austwhich"(sp) counselor, you opened that door.

[Green Arrow]

I don't see the big deal. As I said in another thread on this subject, if the monuments and artifacts were being destroyed it would be one thing, I'd be right there with you protesting. But that isn't happening. What's happening is they are being moved to museums and the like, where they'll be better preserved and people will actually be educated about them.

[resister]

So the answer to the question asked would be no. How easy was that....Lol, you will dance around answering an uncomfortable question, six ways to Sunday, again, lol.

[resister]

You brought up "Austwhich"(sp) counselor, you opened that door.Glad your German spelling is better than mine, I was simply pointing out the logic of removing history, something many here seem to support.

[Ransom]

I must comment on the luck Thomas Jefferson has, our overall national ignorance on our own American history keeps them clueless as to Jefferson's ownership of slaves, his fathering children by those slaves, finally, his push West that would open American Culture onto the Indian nations......those nations would never recover, indeed, many went extinct.

Monticello going to be permitted to stand?

[resister]

I must comment on the luck Thomas Jefferson has, our overall national ignorance on our own American history keeps them clueless as to Jefferson's ownership of slaves, his fathering children by those slaves, finally, his push West that would open American Culture onto the Indian nations......those nations would never recover, indeed, many went extinct.

Monticello going to be permitted to stand?
Maybe they will build a museum around it! To protect it (from sight)

[Mister D]

I must comment on the luck Thomas Jefferson has, our overall national ignorance on our own American history keeps them clueless as to Jefferson's ownership of slaves, his fathering children by those slaves, finally, his push West that would open American Culture onto the Indian nations......those nations would never recover, indeed, many went extinct.

Monticello going to be permitted to stand?

By their logic, it should be bulldozed and a monument to Freddie Grey erected in its place.

[Safety]

hyuk!

[Mister D]

hyuk!
Or Cigar. Remember that black boy who got lynched at tPF? It's hard to believe that kind of shit really happened in America.

[donttread]

A couple years back I spent a few weeks in Virginia visiting with friends. One thing I have always loved about Virginia is the history that surrounds you almost everywhere you go. This was especially true of Richmond, which is one of my favorite cities. Included among its historical sites are a number of Confederate statues and buildings. I am worried that this trend of sending Confederate history down the memory hole will make its way all across the south and result in the removal or defacement of important history. Not only is this troubling because of what it portends for Confederate history specifically, but because of what it portends for American history generally. Because if the Confederacy's association with slavery and racism render its statues and buildings inappropriate for public consumption, then there is almost nothing within America's early history that will qualify as appropriate. That would include things like Thomas Jefferson's plantation in Charlottesville, Monticello. People who push these kinds of agendas really need to think hard about the precedent they are setting in trying to hide away American history.


We should remove all history remotely associalted with slavery. Tear down the Pyramaids ! Ban cotton! Ban tobacco, including the black man's favorite Menthol! Confiscate "blood diamonds" or any diamonds that cannot be proven NOT to be blood diamonds. Take Rome from the Italians and pay it as repairtions to those the Roman's enslaved or fed to lions.
Basically destroy all evidence of pretty much all history.

[Chris]

Or Cigar. Remember that black boy who got lynched at tPF? It's hard to believe that kind of shit really happened in America.

Heard he hung himself.

[resister]

Heard he hung himself.
Yep, unless you where a fan, then that is a conspiracy theory.

[resister]

We should remove all history remotely associalted with slavery. Tear down the Pyramaids ! Ban cotton! Ban tobacco, including the black man's favorite Menthol! Confiscate "blood diamonds" or any diamonds that cannot be proven NOT to be blood diamonds. Take Rome from the Italians and pay it as repairtions to those the Roman's enslaved or fed to lions.
Basically destroy all evidence of pretty much all history.
Lets get all the history books in the nation and burn them! For good measure!

[donttread]

Lets get all the history books in the nation and burn them! For good measure!


Fahrenheit 451?

[rcfieldz]

Farenheit 451?
That's exactly where we are headed.
Well that and 1984.

[resister]

Farenheit 451?
Or Germany, funny thing is, they blindly cheer for it, the so called victims of the very same thing in the past.

[donttread]

That's exactly where we are headed.
Well that and 1984.


Not to mention "Idiocracy"

[DGUtley]

I think it is dangerous -- big picture.

[resister]

I think it is dangerous -- big picture.It is certainly like something Nazi Germany or Communist Russia or a dictator does.

Not at all American ( at least America as it once was)

[rcfieldz]

Not to mention "Idiocracy"

Reminds me of this iPhone Pokeman Go thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajWYpWf9dgs

Another reason I don't have a iPhone. Look at the Sheeples!

[AeonPax]

Who said anything about sentiment or nostalgia? This is about history and intellectual consistency. There are plenty of people who oppose everything the Confederacy stood for who still see the value in preserving its history. Why is that so hard to understand?
`
I'm sorry you have a hard time understanding my comment. I can't help you with that.

[AeonPax]

Okay. Words aside, I'll let pictures do the analogy. One is Islamonazism and one is OG nazism.
`
Godwins law. Talking points. Off topic.

[AeonPax]

So statues of Thomas Jefferson belong in a museum?
`
Irrelevant question. Off topic.

[AeonPax]

I don't look on it at all. I am concerned when we sanitize history. It breeds recurrence. When we bury our history and relegate it to forgotten history books we'll see it resurge. We've already seen bits and pieces of it in the political correctness of our times. The silencing of speech is one example of this. We saw it in the previous administration where if you dared criticize Obama you were called a racist. We are seeing people beat for their political beliefs. We are seeing people ridiculed for their religious beliefs. These are vestiges of our past. We must remember our past or we're condemned to repeat it.
`
I'm sorry these things disturb you.

[Bethere]

The German army, not the SS, was our last enemy to treat US POWS according to the laws of war in effect. He was ordered to execute US POWS and he ignored those orders.

I said nothing about pows or the ss.

[AeonPax]

Ughh, not really, pretty sure plenty of gen x-ers use it for President Trump.
`
I'm sure that do but I'm just not at all sympathetic to anyone who defends these gross monstrosities.

[resister]

`
I'm sorry these things disturb you.
The fact that these events don't concern you is...simultaneously, disturbing and telling.

[AeonPax]

The fact that these events don't concern you is...simultaneously, disturbing and telling.
`
This is a forum. People discuss things. I gave my opinion.

[resister]

`
This is a forum. People discuss things. I gave my opinion.
Just like me. Point?

[AeonPax]

`
`
Sorry you don't understand.

[resister]

`
`
Sorry you don't understand.
Sorry you don't understand DGUTleys concerns. The points he brings up really give you no pause for the cause?