PDA

View Full Version : Warning: Trump Has Been Crushed



Ethereal
04-25-2017, 02:52 PM
...just as I said he would be back when I started this thread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/76706-Trump-amp-Supporters-Are-In-Over-Their-Heads).

First he completely reversed himself on attacking Syria's government, which signaled the beginning of the end.

Then he said he was "okay" with prosecuting Assange, even though he praised Wikileaks during his campaign.

And now he's walking back his comments on NATO, claiming he did not know "much" about them during the campaign.

There is no doubt that Trump is now firmly under the control of the establishment he ran against in 2016. They have humiliated and crushed him.

Many of Trump's supporters are in denial over this and they will continue making lame excuses. But all the promises Trump made to put "America first" are no longer in effect. Once again, the interests of the establishment will come first and foremost, just as they have for decades.

Safety
04-25-2017, 02:54 PM
Snake oil salesmen are usually good at their job...

Green Arrow
04-25-2017, 02:55 PM
I said throughout the campaign, since he announced his primary campaign, that he was establishment wolf in sheep's clothing. I figured it wouldn't take long for him to prove me right.

Safety
04-25-2017, 02:57 PM
I said throughout the campaign, since he announced his primary campaign, that he was establishment wolf in sheep's clothing. I figured it wouldn't take long for him to prove me right.

It's not like it wasn't obvious or anything. This is what the lessor of two evils gets us.

Ethereal
04-25-2017, 02:59 PM
I said throughout the campaign, since he announced his primary campaign, that he was establishment wolf in sheep's clothing. I figured it wouldn't take long for him to prove me right.
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.

Chris
04-25-2017, 03:07 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.

Agree. While Trump is duplicitous enough, but was truly anti-estblishment. He's become a pupit in establishment hands.

Ethereal
04-25-2017, 03:18 PM
Agree. While Trump is duplicitous enough, but was truly anti-estblishment. He's become a pupit in establishment hands.
Right. Trump was never anchored by an principles or convictions, but he was independent-minded. Now he is a servile puppet.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 03:35 PM
I said throughout the campaign, since he announced his primary campaign, that he was establishment wolf in sheep's clothing. I figured it wouldn't take long for him to prove me right.

Can you show where you actually said that?

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 03:37 PM
Right. Trump was never anchored by an principles or convictions, but he was independent-minded. Now he is a servile puppet.

I would say that Trump is not an ideologue. There is no defining political philosophy he follows. He does what he thinks is best in any moment in time or any situation.

resister
04-25-2017, 03:40 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.
Anything was better than Clinton! Even if he does tank, I don't think it would of compared to that women. The SC and the second amendment 2 good examples.

MisterVeritis
04-25-2017, 03:41 PM
It is too soon to pronounce wise judgment. I have stopped listening to the news. What will be, will be.

resister
04-25-2017, 03:42 PM
It is too soon to pronounce wise judgment. I have stopped listening to the news. What will be, will be.Agreed, people already had there minds made up on Nov. 9th

Safety
04-25-2017, 03:56 PM
Can you show where you actually said that?


I am skeptical. I would have more faith in the anti-establishment movement if it had a different standard-bearer than Donald Trump. Donald Trump is part of the establishment, maybe not as an elected official but as a loyal supporter.


I find it hilarious when people say Trump is anti-establishment. He's one of the powers over the establishment, and has said as much in the debates...


I've tried to explain that so many times and I get nowhere. I've given up.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:05 PM
It would be more convincing if those comments were dated. Plus Hal Jordan's views were not part of my question

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:06 PM
It would be more convincing if those comments were dated.

Click on the f'king blue arrow, it will take you to the discussion where the comment came from. Jeez.

How are you breathing without instructions?

Hal Jordan
04-25-2017, 04:07 PM
Click on the little blue boxes and it will take you to the original posts from 1/25/2016 and 11/22/2015.

Or, if you're on mobile, tap where it says Originally posted by.

Ethereal
04-25-2017, 04:08 PM
It would be more convincing if those comments were dated. Plus Hal Jordan's views were not part of my question
You've been on this forum for over two years and you haven't figured out how the quote feature works yet?

Wow.

Common Sense
04-25-2017, 04:09 PM
I don't know that he's been "crushed". I think the reality is that when he was campaigning he spoke at length on issues he was ignorant of. Now that he's President he is beginning to understand reality.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:13 PM
Agree. While Trump is duplicitous enough, but was truly anti-estblishment. He's become a pupit in establishment hands.


I think Trump has come to realize that the establishment types aren't always wrong. You are not going to be able to achieve any health care, tax or environmental regulatory reforms if you fight them on every single issue.


Plus he realizes that the Congress is dominated by the establishment and always will be. If you are a true deal maker, you will need to throw them a bone every once in a while.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:15 PM
I don't know that he's been "crushed". I think the reality is that when he was campaigning he spoke at length on issues he was ignorant of. Now that he's President he is beginning to understand reality.

I can go with that.

He had absolutely no experience in the political arena outside of paying off politicians in his prior life.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:16 PM
You've been on this forum for over two years and you haven't figured out how the quote feature works yet?

Wow.

I wasn't asking for your useless input.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:17 PM
Click on the f'king blue arrow, it will take you to the discussion where the comment came from. Jeez.

How are you breathing without instructions?

You are an insufferable ass

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:18 PM
I wasn't asking for your useless input.

Put down the shovel, you messed up, just accept it and move on.

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:20 PM
You are an insufferable ass

Does that mean I can't borrow the car?

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:20 PM
Put down the shovel, you messed up, just accept it and move on.


Im not sure why you insist on being an ass.

pragmatic
04-25-2017, 04:21 PM
I don't know that he's been "crushed". I think the reality is that when he was campaigning he spoke at length on issues he was ignorant of. Now that he's President he is beginning to understand reality.


Never been a particular fan of the fella. But agree with your conclusions there.

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:23 PM
Im not sure why you insist on being an ass.

It's an ability I have to be able to mirror those I respond to.

resister
04-25-2017, 04:23 PM
Put down the shovel, you messed up, just accept it and move on.You just love belittling folks, don't ya?

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:25 PM
You just love belittling folks, don't ya?

Only the ones that try to one-up someone without eating breakfast first.

resister
04-25-2017, 04:28 PM
Only the ones that try to one-up someone without eating breakfast first.Whatever dude, enjoy your little" victory"...:rollseyes:

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:30 PM
Whatever dude, enjoy your little" victory"...:rollseyes:

Thanks, I will. Now try to get some sleep so you can make a better effort tomorrow.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 04:32 PM
You just love belittling folks, don't ya?


Its really a bad thing when one doesn't know about a particular function one has never used on an Internet nessage board.

The embarrassment......

resister
04-25-2017, 04:35 PM
Its really a bad thing when one doesn't know about a particular function one has never used on an Internet nessage board.

The embarrassment......
I know, right? But hey, you gave the guy a boost! :wink:

Safety
04-25-2017, 04:37 PM
You two need a room to lick your wounds?

Green Arrow
04-25-2017, 05:06 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.

He was establishment all his life. He's establishment now. You expect me to believe that he was magically anti-establishment only while running for president?

Mister D
04-25-2017, 05:30 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.

Agreed on your first point. It was perfectly clear that the establishment hated him and pulled out all the stops to defeat him. It was one of the two reasons why I voted for him. Now you could argue it was all a show but I don't find that to be particularly plausible. I was a little skeptical then about about his potential to survive as his own man in power (after all, it's one thing to campaign for the Presidency and another to actually be the POTUS) and I'm a little skeptical now but I'm not going to make even a tentative judgement at this point.

Mister D
04-25-2017, 05:33 PM
It is too soon to pronounce wise judgment. I have stopped listening to the news. What will be, will be.


Way too soon.

Bethere
04-25-2017, 05:34 PM
Agreed on your first point. It was perfectly clear that the establishment hated him and pulled out all the stops to defeat him. It was one of the two reasons why I voted for him. Now you could argue it was all a show but I don't find that to be particularly plausible. I was a little skeptical then about about his potential to survive as his own man in power (after all, it's one thing to campaign for the Presidency and another to actually be the POTUS) and I'm a little skeptical now but I'm not going to make even a tentative judgement at this point.

17990

Mister D
04-25-2017, 05:42 PM
17990

We'll file this with your white murder rate. :laugh:

Mini Me
04-25-2017, 06:08 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.
They took him down in the basement and showed him "the Movie" which tells him what happens to those who do not go along with "the program". They end up like Jack in the Box!

Captain Obvious
04-25-2017, 06:11 PM
...just as I said he would be back when I started this thread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/76706-Trump-amp-Supporters-Are-In-Over-Their-Heads).

First he completely reversed himself on attacking Syria's government, which signaled the beginning of the end.

Then he said he was "okay" with prosecuting Assange, even though he praised Wikileaks during his campaign.

And now he's walking back his comments on NATO, claiming he did not know "much" about them during the campaign.

There is no doubt that Trump is now firmly under the control of the establishment he ran against in 2016. They have humiliated and crushed him.

Many of Trump's supporters are in denial over this and they will continue making lame excuses. But all the promises Trump made to put "America first" are no longer in effect. Once again, the interests of the establishment will come first and foremost, just as they have for decades.

I agree, he's learning to be a politician quick.

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 07:01 PM
Whatever dude, enjoy your little" victory"...:rollseyes:


What victory?

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 07:04 PM
You two need a room to lick your wounds?

What wounds? Can you explain that dumb comment?

Common
04-25-2017, 07:09 PM
...just as I said he would be back when I started this thread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/76706-Trump-amp-Supporters-Are-In-Over-Their-Heads).

First he completely reversed himself on attacking Syria's government, which signaled the beginning of the end.

Then he said he was "okay" with prosecuting Assange, even though he praised Wikileaks during his campaign.

And now he's walking back his comments on NATO, claiming he did not know "much" about them during the campaign.

There is no doubt that Trump is now firmly under the control of the establishment he ran against in 2016. They have humiliated and crushed him.

Many of Trump's supporters are in denial over this and they will continue making lame excuses. But all the promises Trump made to put "America first" are no longer in effect. Once again, the interests of the establishment will come first and foremost, just as they have for decades.

The crushed thing is just your opinion which im sure the entire left agrees with. Trump is not a politician never held an office. He like ALL other presidents made promises they couldnt keep. Hes keeping his promise on immigration and creating jobs. He will get obamacare reform. Hes still in a learning process its been 100 days.

Did he make mistakes yes, did he changeup on some promises yes. Crushed no way and in the process of what hes tried to do hes had the entire press and liberal justice system against him.

If you read 98% of trump supporters still support him. He has done nothing in the face of all the opposition and lies created about him to change that. YET!!!!

Safety
04-25-2017, 07:09 PM
What wounds? Can you explain that dumb comment?

Sure, do I need crayons or will finger paint suffice?

resister
04-25-2017, 07:10 PM
You two need a room to lick your wounds?No but you and your little yes man that likes your juvenile post should get one.

Don't give yourself to much credit, short of a gun, you could never hope to wound me.

Safety
04-25-2017, 07:11 PM
The crushed thing is just your opinion which im sure the entire left agrees with. Trump is not a politician never held an office. He like ALL other presidents made promises they couldnt keep. Hes keeping his promise on immigration and creating jobs. He will get obamacare reform. Hes still in a learning process its been 100 days.

Did he make mistakes yes, did he changeup on some promises yes. Crushed no way and in the process of what hes tried to do hes had the entire press and liberal justice system against him.

If you read 98% of trump supporters still support him. He has done nothing in the face of all the opposition and lies created about him to change that. YET!!!!

That speaks more to the mental fortitude of his supporters rather than about Trump himself.

resister
04-25-2017, 07:11 PM
What victory?
The one in his mind, hence the " "

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 07:14 PM
Sure, do I need crayons or will finger paint suffice?

its amazing that you don't embarrass yourself.

resister
04-25-2017, 07:18 PM
its amazing that you don't embarrass yourself.Real VIP material that one, wonder why the demotion...:thinking:

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 07:38 PM
Real VIP material that one, wonder why the demotion...:thinking:

Right...

The Xl
04-25-2017, 07:48 PM
I don't agree. The establishment genuinely tried to stop him from being nominated and elected. It was not a show. And once he became president, they unleashed the full force of the deep state's powers on him to either destroy him or bring him under their control. They've clearly succeeded. Trump has been neutered. His balls are in a glass jar on John McCain's desk.

Agreed completely.

Common
04-25-2017, 07:58 PM
That speaks more to the mental fortitude of his supporters rather than about Trump himself.

Nonesense, considering the opposition from the press the liberal judiciary and college lamer sheep hes done well, hes made mistakes but hes done well. Hes the most criticized and assaulted president in my lifetime
Obama would have fell apart with the opposition trump has. Obama was CARRIED by the press and the judiciary and the entire liberal establishment

resister
04-25-2017, 08:02 PM
Nonesense, considering the opposition from the press the liberal judiciary and college lamer sheep hes done well, hes made mistakes but hes done well. Hes the most criticized and assaulted president in my lifetime
Obama would have fell apart with the opposition trump has. Obama was CARRIED by the press and the judiciary and the entire liberal establishment
The exact opposite of President Trump!

Tahuyaman
04-25-2017, 08:12 PM
Clearly Trump and the political establishment are still at odds. Trump has gone their way on an issue or two, but they are still at a loss as to how to deal with him. If he doesn't like their stance, he's not afraid to go against them.

Mini Me
04-25-2017, 08:54 PM
You've been on this forum for over two years and you haven't figured out how the quote feature works yet?
I dont know how either! Can someone explain how?
Wow.

Mini Me
04-25-2017, 08:56 PM
I think Trump has come to realize that the establishment types aren't always wrong. You are not going to be able to achieve any health care, tax or environmental regulatory reforms if you fight them on every single issue.

Paul Ryan is buried firmly up Agent Orange's ass!

Plus he realizes that the Congress is dominated by the establishment and always will be. If you are a true deal maker, you will need to throw them a bone every once in a while.

Mini Me
04-25-2017, 09:06 PM
That speaks more to the mental fortitude of his supporters rather than about Trump himself.
They just refuse to grasp the ugly reality that they were hoodwinked!Its too painful for them to admit it!

Trump will quit, or get impeached, as I predicted long ago on another forum. Pence was picked as the GOP's insurance policy, as they hedge their bet.

He had ideas about becoming an emperer, and the job is interfering with his golf game and Russia deals!

NapRover
04-25-2017, 10:16 PM
Hoodwinked as in we now wish we voted for Hillary? I think 1-2% might feel that way.

Don
04-25-2017, 10:51 PM
I don't think people on the right like to admit it but the same thing happened to Ronald Reagan. The establishment tried their best to keep him out of office and when the people put him in office in spite of them then the real battle started. The left attacked him and stonewalled him at every turn but the real damage came from the establishment right, including a few worms they had put into his inner circle. Newt Gingrich was the main neutralizer in the Congress. He even fooled people into thinking he was the opposition to those anti Reaganites and his job was to neutralize the grassroots Republicans in the congress. He did his job like a real pro. I see a lot of the same similarities going on with Trump and the grassroots Republicans in the house and senate. I hope it doesn't take the wind out of peoples sails and make them think its useless to try to turn the monster back. That's what the other side wants to happen. Its time to double down and keep working to get the right people in congress and to let the rest of them know we're onto them and we aren't giving up.

KathyS
04-25-2017, 10:59 PM
Its really a bad thing when one doesn't know about a particular function one has never used on an Internet nessage board.

The embarrassment......


*raises hand* I confess, I didn't know about the blue thing either.

resister
04-25-2017, 11:04 PM
*raises hand* I confess, I didn't know about the blue thing either. Well by golly, that makes three of us, for shame.

One would think an honored, role model member, would help you learn, instead of ridicule.

Interestingly, some honored and everyday members, have patiently, helped me learn, forum functions.

Kudos to those that do, a great example to set.

KathyS
04-25-2017, 11:05 PM
I don't think people on the right like to admit it but the same thing happened to Ronald Reagan. The establishment tried their best to keep him out of office and when the people put him in office in spite of them then the real battle started. The left attacked him and stonewalled him at every turn but the real damage came from the establishment right, including a few worms they had put into his inner circle. Newt Gingrich was the main neutralizer in the Congress. He even fooled people into thinking he was the opposition to those anti Reaganites and his job was to neutralize the grassroots Republicans in the congress. He did his job like a real pro. I see a lot of the same similarities going on with Trump and the grassroots Republicans in the house and senate. I hope it doesn't take the wind out of peoples sails and make them think its useless to try to turn the monster back. That's what the other side wants to happen. Its time to double down and keep working to get the right people in congress and to let the rest of them know we're onto them and we aren't giving up.

There was a lot that I disagreed with about Reagan, particularly his 1986 "one time only" amnesty bill. But I remember the opposition toward him from both sides, just like what is currently happening to Trump.

resister
04-25-2017, 11:08 PM
They just refuse to grasp the ugly reality that they were hoodwinked!Its too painful for them to admit it!

Trump will quit, or get impeached, as I predicted long ago on another forum. Pence was picked as the GOP's insurance policy, as they hedge their bet.

He had ideas about becoming an emperer, and the job is interfering with his golf game and Russia deals!
LOL "on another forum" convenient, lol

KathyS
04-25-2017, 11:50 PM
IMO, I don't think Trump has been "crushed" and this will all come out in the wash. What we should be doing, is getting rid of every g-d establishment republican in Congress. We gave them the House, Senate, and Presidency, yet they continue to fold to the democrats. The truth is up front and center folks. They have no intention of serving their constituents. NONE.

rcfieldz
04-26-2017, 12:03 AM
Trump Has Been Crushed
I was looking for a pic or two. I dunno why.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 08:07 AM
*raises hand* I confess, I didn't know about the blue thing either.

Well then, you should be embarrassed. Because you didnt know that, you are digging yourself in a hole in every discussion. Isn't that how it works?

Standing Wolf
04-26-2017, 08:14 AM
I would say that Trump is not an ideologue. There is no defining political philosophy he follows. He does what he thinks is best in any moment in time or any situation.

Unfortunately, he does that, in most cases, without taking the time to learn any facts, listen to any views that run counter to his gut instincts, or consider whether what he wants to do is even legal.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 08:27 AM
Unfortunately, he does that, in most cases, without taking the time to learn any facts, listen to any views that run counter to his gut instincts, or consider whether what he wants to do is even legal.


I think you are wrong. Obviously he listens to the people he has surrounded himself with. You have nothing to base that on other than your own partisan views.


There is a hyper partisan element which will disagree with everything he does, even if he takes their side on an issue. That element sees only what they want to see. If there's nothing to see, they make it up.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 08:36 AM
I think you are wrong. Obviously he listens to the people he has surrounded himself with. You have nothing to base that on other than your own partisan views.


There is a hyper partisan element which will disagree with everything he does, even if he takes their side on an issue. That element sees only what they want to see. If there's nothing to see, they make it up.
What have "they" made up?

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 08:43 AM
What have "they" made up?


They made up the silly idea promoted here that he doesn't gather facts before acting and that he listens to no one, just his gut feelings.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 08:50 AM
They made up the silly idea promoted here that he doesn't gather facts before acting and that he listens to no one, just his gut feelings.

It seems he doesn't gather facts.

Just look at his stance on NATO when he was campaigning. He was quite adamant about his stance on NATO and how is was broken. After he became president he admitted the he "didn't know much" about NATO.

Or look at healthcare. Trump again was quite vocal about how he was going to fix the ACA. Once he became president he said "who knew healthcare was so complicated?".

It seems like they haven't made up anything. Unless of course you can find something they actually fabricated. Can you?

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 09:11 AM
It seems he doesn't gather facts.

Just look at his stance on NATO when he was campaigning. He was quite adamant about his stance on NATO and how is was broken. After he became president he admitted the he "didn't know much" about NATO.

Or look at healthcare. Trump again was quite vocal about how he was going to fix the ACA. Once he became president he said "who knew healthcare was so complicated?".

It seems like they haven't made up anything. Unless of course you can find something they actually fabricated. Can you?


Obviously he changes his mind because he gathers facts and listens to others. Claiming that he doesn't is making something up out of thin air.

ripmeister
04-26-2017, 10:06 AM
Unfortunately, he does that, in most cases, without taking the time to learn any facts, listen to any views that run counter to his gut instincts, or consider whether what he wants to do is even legal.
Bingo! And there-in lies the danger. Those of you who see Trump as some well informed, effective maverick are simply living in lala land.

NapRover
04-26-2017, 10:10 AM
Bingo! And there-in lies the danger. Those of you who see Trump as some well informed, effective maverick are simply living in lala land.
Lala Land > Clintonland

ripmeister
04-26-2017, 10:12 AM
Obviously he changes his mind because he gathers facts and listens to others. Claiming that he doesn't is making something up out of thin air.
I would agree that The Salesman has admitted that things are more complicated than he thought and I guess he deserves some credit for that admission, especially considering his ego. Having said that, it was apparent from the beginning that he is intellectually uncurious leading to these 180's. Its one thing to evolve in your views based on newly gained insights and information and an appreciation for nuance but to pull a total about face indicates that you simply were ignorant.

ripmeister
04-26-2017, 10:14 AM
Lala Land > Clintonland
Perhaps, but its still lala land. :)

NapRover
04-26-2017, 10:17 AM
Perhaps, but its still lala land. :)
For you, maybe, not me.

Standing Wolf
04-26-2017, 11:35 AM
I think you are wrong. Obviously he listens to the people he has surrounded himself with. You have nothing to base that on other than your own partisan views.


There is a hyper partisan element which will disagree with everything he does, even if he takes their side on an issue. That element sees only what they want to see. If there's nothing to see, they make it up.

The conclusion that Trump surrounds himself with people who will only tell him what he wants to hear is not "partisan" - it is inescapable. How, otherwise, could he continue to attempt to do things that are not in his power to do? Say things that are lies, utter nonsense or both?

You accuse me and others of criticizing his actions (and attempted actions) because of partisanship - because we "don't like him". T, I can only speak for myself here, and I will. Yes, Trump is the absolute living caricature and stereotype of the rude, clueless, classless, abrasive and ignorant New York businessman...and despite all of that, if the man was not continually overstepping his authority, publicly insulting everyone from judges to world leaders, demonstrating absolutely no sense of personal or professional ethics, shamelessly bilking the taxpayers in order to enrich himself and his family, or questioning the loyalty and patriotism of anyone who disagrees with him about virtually anything, I would be a Donald Trump supporter - though I might be holding my nose while doing it. I disagreed with things that President Obama did and said, and it wasn't because he is Black. Similarly, I disagree with many things that Trump has done and said, and it isn't because he's a personally disgusting individual - it's because he doesn't understand his job and keeps doing things that bring the office he holds into disrepute.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 11:47 AM
The conclusion that Trump surrounds himself with people who will only tell him what he wants to hear is not "partisan" - it is inescapable. How, otherwise, could he continue to attempt to do things that are not in his power to do? Say things that are lies, utter nonsense or both?

You accuse me and others of criticizing his actions (and attempted actions) because of partisanship - because we "don't like him". T, I can only speak for myself here, and I will. Yes, Trump is the absolute living caricature and stereotype of the rude, clueless, classless, abrasive and ignorant New York businessman...and despite all of that, if the man was not continually overstepping his authority, publicly insulting everyone from judges to world leaders, demonstrating absolutely no sense of personal or professional ethics, shamelessly bilking the taxpayers in order to enrich himself and his family, or questioning the loyalty and patriotism of anyone who disagrees with him about virtually anything, I would be a Donald Trump supporter - though I might be holding my nose while doing it. I disagreed with things that President Obama did and said, and it wasn't because he is Black. Similarly, I disagree with many things that Trump has done and said, and it isn't because he's a personally disgusting individual - it's because he doesn't understand his job and keeps doing things that bring the office he holds into disrepute.


I think that you are wrong. If he surrounded himself with people who only tell him what he wants to hear, he would have stayed firm in all of his campaign position. Plus I don't believe the strong personalities with their kind of experience , like the former military leaders, would submit to that.


His actions have not brought any more disrepute on the office than several of his predecessors.

He is not what we are accustomed to as the POTUS, so many people throw up a wall and do nothing but oppose.

I oppose some of his ideas and actions, but support others.

Standing Wolf
04-26-2017, 12:13 PM
I think that you are wrong. If he surrounded himself with people who only tell him what he wants to hear, he would have stayed firm in all of his campaign position. Plus I don't believe the strong personalities with their kind of experience , like the former military leaders, would submit to that.


His actions have not brought any more disrepute on the office than several of his predecessors.

He is not what we are accustomed to as the POTUS, so many people throw up a wall and do nothing but oppose.

I oppose some of his ideas and actions, but support others.

As do I...although if you put a gun to my head right now, I'd be hard pressed to tell you something he's done or said that I liked. Seriously, there have been a few time since 1/20 that I heard about something he'd proposed or done that made me think, "Mm, that's a good idea". They've just been lost in the nonsense.

Chris
04-26-2017, 12:19 PM
Real VIP material that one, wonder why the demotion...:thinking:



It is considered bad faith taking to task VIPs, former VIPs, Mods, former Mods for the roles they do or have played here.

texan
04-26-2017, 12:22 PM
...just as I said he would be back when I started this thread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/76706-Trump-amp-Supporters-Are-In-Over-Their-Heads).

First he completely reversed himself on attacking Syria's government, which signaled the beginning of the end. OK whatever.

Then he said he was "okay" with prosecuting Assange, even though he praised Wikileaks during his campaign. So!

And now he's walking back his comments on NATO, claiming he did not know "much" about them during the campaign. Don't see him walking anything back he said they needed to pay their share. It is my understanding those countries are truing up on cost.

There is no doubt that Trump is now firmly under the control of the establishment he ran against in 2016. They have humiliated and crushed him. Uh Huh

Many of Trump's supporters are in denial over this and they will continue making lame excuses. But all the promises Trump made to put "America first" are no longer in effect. Once again, the interests of the establishment will come first and foremost, just as they have for decades.

I love people that call a game over in the first quarter. Typically the can't see the forest for the tree's. I get it tho. Smartest person they know.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:27 PM
As do I...although if you put a gun to my head right now, I'd be hard pressed to tell you something he's done or said that I liked. Seriously, there have been a few time since 1/20 that I heard about something he'd proposed or done that made me think, "Mm, that's a good idea". They've just been lost in the nonsense.

I like the idea of tax rate reductions at both the corporate and personal levels. This will be a true economic stimulus. The revenue increase based on the corporate rate reduction could easily fund an ambitious infrastructure restoration.

You may may disagree with a wall, but securing our borders is necessary to our national security.


I support his actions when it comes to respecting the promises made to our veterans.


I don't know how anyone could oppose any of those things.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:37 PM
I don't know that he's been "crushed". I think the reality is that when he was campaigning he spoke at length on issues he was ignorant of. Now that he's President he is beginning to understand reality.
Yes, let's ignore the concerted and widespread effort to destroy his campaign and presidency and attribute his sudden transformation to a simple change of heart. Because that's the kind of guy Trump is.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:38 PM
I wasn't asking for your useless input.
I don't care if you were asking.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:38 PM
You are an insufferable ass
Ironic quote of the week.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:39 PM
I don't care if you were asking. I don't give you any consideration what-so-ever.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:40 PM
He was establishment all his life. He's establishment now. You expect me to believe that he was magically anti-establishment only while running for president?

He was so establishment that the establishment did everything in its power to stop him from becoming the president and proceeded to cripple his presidency by systematically picking off and marginalizing his anti-establishment advisers like Flynn and Bannon?

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 01:41 PM
He was so establishment that the establishment did everything in its power to stop him from becoming the president and proceeded to cripple his presidency by systematically picking off and marginalizing his anti-establishment advisers like Flynn and Bannon?
Flynn and Bannon destroyed themselves.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:44 PM
Since the nomination of Trump, the word "establishment" has lost its meaning. It's now just another cliché.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:44 PM
*raises hand* I confess, I didn't know about the blue thing either.
You haven't been here for over two years.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:45 PM
Ironic quote of the week.You don't know the definition of the word irony.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:47 PM
I love people that call a game over in the first quarter.

When one team is down by five touchdowns, it's usually a safe assumption that they've been beaten.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:48 PM
You gotta laugh at people who seem to think they are important and superior.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:49 PM
Flynn and Bannon destroyed themselves.

They were systematically targeted by the deep state. That is so painfully obvious at this point.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:50 PM
You gotta laugh at people who seem to think they are important and superior.
Another ironic quote.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 01:52 PM
"Common Sense" has spent months telling us that Trump is a delusional, lying egomaniac who doesn't care about anything except himself. Now he is telling us that Trump's sudden transformation is the result of his newfound appreciation for heretofore unknown "facts" that nobody has bothered to describe. So which one is it? Is Trump a delusional egomaniac who only cares about his own crazy agenda or is he statesman who evolves in accordance with the facts? I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 01:56 PM
Another ironic quote.
Again, do you know the definition of the word irony?

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 01:57 PM
Yeah, must be the deep state. Them or the lizard people.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:00 PM
Yeah, must be the deep state. Them or the lizard people.
As usual, you have nothing except condescension and smugness.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:02 PM
As usual, you have nothing except condescension and smugness.

Poor Ethereal. Such a victim.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 02:02 PM
At the risk of getting back on topic, Trump has been anything but crushed. The loyal Anti Trump folks are the same people they've always been.

Trump started with a fairly ambitious agenda and has accomplished about as much as one can without acts of Congress.

The business sector is very optimistic and it shows. People are more confident that we are moving in the right direction after more than a decade of mediocrity.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:08 PM
Poor Ethereal. Such a victim.
Yea, you got me all figured out, Mr. Superior.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:11 PM
Still waiting for "Common Sense" (lol) to explain how Trump went from not caring about facts to caring about facts.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:11 PM
Yea, you got me all figured out, Mr. Superior.

I never claimed to be superior.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:13 PM
I never claimed to be superior.
You sure do act like it.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:14 PM
Still waiting for "Common Sense" (lol) to explain how Trump went from not caring about facts to caring about facts.
I explained it in my post.

What's the more rational explanation?

Trump made wild claims and promises during his campaign based on his limited knowledge and then when he became president he learned that these situations aren't as simple as he made them out to be?

Or is it that globalist deep state agents got to him and have either threatened him or lured him into cooperating with their cabal hell bent on the destruction of all that is good and holy and world domination?

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:15 PM
You sure do act like it.
That's your perception. Again, a victim mentality will do that.

texan
04-26-2017, 02:15 PM
Trump hasn't been crushed. 100 days? This is just getting started.

Isn't Gitmo still open?

At least Obama had a honeymoon. "Mr. President how do you like flying in Air Force 1?" Mr President tell us about your new dog."

The Obama WH tried to derail him behind the scenes while shaking his hand face to face. So Chicago style dirty.

The Xl
04-26-2017, 02:22 PM
The only benevolent governments are Western governments. lol.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:23 PM
I explained it in my post.

What's the more rational explanation?

Trump made wild claims and promises during his campaign based on his limited knowledge and then when he became president he learned that these situations aren't as simple as he made them out to be?

Or is it that globalist deep state agents got to him and have either threatened him or lured him into cooperating with their cabal hell bent on the destruction of all that is good and holy and world domination?
Nice strawman. All it's missing is another smug reference to lizard people.

But that's neither here nor there. You have been claiming for months in the most adamant terms that Trump does not care about facts. Now you want us to believe that facts suddenly matter to him. Has Trump undergone some kind of radical personality change in the past few months?

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:24 PM
That's your perception. Again, a victim mentality will do that.
It's an accurate perception. You are extremely smug.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:27 PM
Nice strawman. All it's missing is another smug reference to lizard people.

But that's neither here nor there. You have been claiming for months in the most adamant terms that Trump does not care about facts. Now you want us to believe that facts suddenly matter to him. Has Trump undergone some kind of radical personality change in the past few months?

He was put into a position where he couldn't ignore facts any longer.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:27 PM
It's an accurate perception. You are extremely smug.

Tissue?

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:28 PM
The only benevolent governments are Western governments. lol.

Rich and powerful people using government authority to do bad things in secret = Lizard people

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:29 PM
He was put into a position where he couldn't ignore facts any longer.
In other words, everything you said about Trump being immune to facts was wrong.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:29 PM
Tissue?
Pointing out "Common Sense's" pathological smugness = Crying

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:30 PM
In other words, everything you said about Trump being immune to facts was wrong.

It seems some facts may have indeed penetrated his enamel.

Tell me more about your theory. Who are these "deep state" folks and how exactly did they "crush" Trump?

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:31 PM
Pointing out "Common Sense's" pathological smugness = Crying

You might want to look in a mirror now and then.

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 02:39 PM
It's an accurate perception. You are extremely smug.

ahem..... Cough cough.......

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:41 PM
It seems some facts may have indeed penetrated his enamel.

So you were wrong. That seems to be the obvious implication here.


Tell me more about your theory. Who are these "deep state" folks and how exactly did they "crush" Trump?

You've already made up your mind that there is no "deep state" and that anyone who thinks otherwise must subscribe to the existence of lizard people. And given the amount of evidence (Eisenhower expressly warning Americans about the military-industrial complex, the Church Committee Investigations, the Pentagon Papers, the Iran-Contra scandal, etc.) pointing to the existence of such an entity, one can only conclude that you've studiously ignored any evidence which contradicts your preconceived notions up until this point.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 02:47 PM
So you were wrong. That seems to be the obvious implication here.



You've already made up your mind that there is no "deep state" and that anyone who thinks otherwise must subscribe to the existence of lizard people. And given the amount of evidence (Eisenhower expressly warning Americans about the military-industrial complex, the Church Committee Investigations, the Pentagon Papers, the Iran-Contra scandal, etc.) pointing to the existence of such an entity, one can only conclude that you've studiously ignored any evidence which contradicts your preconceived notions up until this point.
So show us some evidence.

Until then I'll take the obvious explanation over the conspiracy theory.

Mister D
04-26-2017, 02:49 PM
"Common Sense" has spent months telling us that Trump is a delusional, lying egomaniac who doesn't care about anything except himself. Now he is telling us that Trump's sudden transformation is the result of his newfound appreciation for heretofore unknown "facts" that nobody has bothered to describe. So which one is it? Is Trump a delusional egomaniac who only cares about his own crazy agenda or is he statesman who evolves in accordance with the facts? I don't see how you can have it both ways.
Facing the fact that liberal democracies engage heavily in propaganda and coercion is very hard for many Westerners to accept. I think that's partly because it makes them feel weak and manipulated but whatever. The point is that it's easier to believe Trump is changing because of "facts" than it is to believe unelected power structures exist.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:50 PM
You might want to look in a mirror now and then.
I'm not the one accusing other people of believing in "lizard people" simply because they believe there are powerful elements within the government who abuse its authority and secrecy.

This is something that has been happening in every central government in the history of the world. The founding fathers of this country based an entire ideology on a "conspiracy theory" involving aristocratic elements who wanted to deprive them of their rights. There is absolutely nothing controversial or strange about the existence of a "deep state" within the US government. It is basically the nexus of the big banks, the arms manufacturers, the intelligence agencies, the military, and the political class. The US is the largest military empire in the history of the world. Trillions of dollars are at stake. Caroll Quigley, a Georgetown academic, wrote a 1,300 page book (Tragedy & Hope) detailing the existence of a global financial elite who manipulate political systems as a means of promoting their own agendas. In order to maintain the belief that the "deep state" is some kind of myth, one needs to ignore mountains of evidence both historical and contemporary.

Mister D
04-26-2017, 02:51 PM
So show us some evidence.

Until then I'll take the obvious explanation over the conspiracy theory.
He just did.

What makes you think Trump changed because "facts"?

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 02:54 PM
So show us some evidence.

Until then I'll take the obvious explanation over the conspiracy theory.

That's right.

Everything that doesn't conform perfectly with conventional orthodoxy is a "conspiracy theory".

Your view of political authority in the west is hopelessly naive and ignorant. Apprising you of the evidence would be a total waste of time because you would find a way to ignore or dismiss it just as you've been doing for your entire life.

Mister D
04-26-2017, 02:56 PM
BTW, this "only Russians do that kind of stuff" is the sort of attitude that Noam Chomsky scoffs at.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:00 PM
Facing the fact that liberal democracies engage heavily in propaganda and coercion is very hard for many Westerners to accept. I think that's partly because it makes them feel weak and manipulated but whatever. The point is that it's easier to believe Trump is changing because of "facts" than it is to believe unelected power structures exist.

To acknowledge or even contemplate the reality of western states (I wouldn't call them liberal or democratic except in name only) is to question their own identity, as they've been conditioned their entire lives to identify personally with the state. An attack on the integrity of the state is perceived as an attack on themselves. This is a tactic as old as the nation-state itself. I'm currently reading a history of the rise and fall of Egypt and the parallels between how ancient and modern states maintain their hold on power and wealth are quite striking. Granted, there are differences, but only insofar as they are variations on the same core themes: National identity subsuming all others; elaborate trappings of office; ceremony; ritual; iconography; etc.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:03 PM
He just did.

What makes you think Trump changed because "facts"?

Because the only alternative is that powerful, unelected elements within western society are exerting immense influence over the political process, and that strikes at the heart of his "liberal democratic" mythology.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:04 PM
BTW, this "only Russians do that kind of stuff" is the sort of attitude that Noam Chomsky scoffs at.
Noam Chomsky is cool until he isn't.

Just like Occupy Wall Street rhetoric about the "one percent" is cool until it isn't.

Captain Obvious
04-26-2017, 03:07 PM
Noam Chomsky is cool until he isn't.

Just like Occupy Wall Street rhetoric about the "one percent" is cool until it isn't.

Remember how these people cheered like hell when Wall St. CEO's endorsed Rodham?

Integrity is a funny thing.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:08 PM
So when "Occupy Wall Street" was squatting in NYC for months, talking about how exploitative capitalism is and how the "one percent" are pulling the strings on the political system, that was all just a big mindless temper tantrum steeped in "conspiracy theory"?

Mister D
04-26-2017, 03:10 PM
Noam Chomsky is cool until he isn't.

Just like Occupy Wall Street rhetoric about the "one percent" is cool until it isn't.
And I don't like Chomsky but it is something I have been forced to admit he's right about.

Mister D
04-26-2017, 03:11 PM
Yes, I do recall a great deal of support for Occupy Wall Street. I am not even going to ask them to reconcile their contrasting attitudes.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:12 PM
Remember how these people cheered like hell when Wall St. CEO's endorsed Rodham?

Integrity is a funny thing.

Many "liberals", while pretending to be a champion for the little guy, are elitist to their core.

Mister D
04-26-2017, 03:16 PM
Many "liberals", while pretending to be a champion for the little guy, are elitist to their core.

It's a great point though. Just use "banker" instead of "deep state" and suddenly they will understand you.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:19 PM
Princeton conspiracy theorists...


Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy (http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746)

Tin foil hat lover, Dwight Eisenhower...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg-jvHynP9Y

Kook, Caroll Quigley...


Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time (https://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Hope-History-World-Time/dp/094500110X)

Crazy person, Carl Bernstein...


THE CIA AND THE MEDIA (http://www.carlbernstein.com/magazine_cia_and_media.php)

Where is the EVIDENCE™?

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 03:20 PM
There is a vast difference between acknowledging a broken system that is heavily influenced by lobbyists and a structure of influential players vs. Trump now being under the "control of the establishment".

Mister D
04-26-2017, 03:22 PM
There is a vast difference between acknowledging a broken system that is heavily influenced by lobbyists and a structure of influential players vs. Trump now being under the "control of the establishment".
No, there really isn't. In both cases we have unelected power structures influencing our elected officials regardless of their rank. Don't worry. I'd be embarrassed too. It's laughably inconsistent.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:22 PM
There is a vast difference between acknowledging a broken system that is heavily influenced by lobbyists and a structure of influential players vs. Trump now being under the "control of the establishment".

And that vast difference is...?

Mister D
04-26-2017, 03:23 PM
And that vast difference is...?
The difference is that you don't share his ideology so when you say stuff like this you're crazy.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:31 PM
Many "liberals" love "conspiracy theories" when they tend to reinforce their own political agendas.

Trump is a Russian agent; denial of man-made global warming is a right-wing conspiracy involving oil giants and Republican politicians; the Bush administration lied about WMD (I happen to agree with that one!); the "one percent" are in control of the government; etc.

But when a "conspiracy theory" tends to undermine their agenda, they're quick to dismiss and ridicule it.

It never ceases to amaze me the penchant for "liberal" double standards and hypocrisy.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 03:32 PM
And that vast difference is...?

One implies a system that has undue influence and the other implies a direct conspiracy.

Bethere
04-26-2017, 03:38 PM
Ironic quote of the week.

As is yours.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:39 PM
One implies a system that has undue influence and the other implies a direct conspiracy.

That doesn't seem like much of a difference, let alone a "vast" one.

But let's go with this vague description for the sake of argument. Are you implying that the aforementioned "structure of influential players" are exercising "undue influence" over the political system without coordinating with one another? That they are all acting individually and spontaneously?

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:39 PM
As is yours.

You forgot to tell everyone how awesome you are... :rofl:

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:42 PM
And you might want to consider what the terms "structure" and "system" imply about a need for planning, organization, and cooperation.

Bethere
04-26-2017, 03:44 PM
You forgot to tell everyone how awesome you are... :rofl:

You forgot to give attribution to RT news.

The west, western states...you talk about us in third person, comrade.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:44 PM
It's okay to say that a "structure of influential players" are exercising "undue influence" over the political system, just don't say they have a shared objective in mind and a plan for achieving it. Then it becomes CRAZY.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:46 PM
You forgot to give attribution to RT news.
Is that the best you got, Mr. Awesome?

Bethere
04-26-2017, 03:48 PM
Is that the best you got, Mr. Awesome?

No, but that's all you are going to get today.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:49 PM
I'm sure when all the masters of the universe meet at Bilderberg, Bohemian Grove, Davos, CFR meetings, etc., they never discuss shared objectives or create plans for achieving them. Or if they do discuss such things, they are always 100% transparent about what those objectives and plans are. Yes, that is a very plausible explanation, especially when viewed in the larger context of political history.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:50 PM
No, but that's all you are going to get today.
Don't forget to brag about yourself before you leave the thread. We wouldn't want to deprive the forum membership of that.

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 03:52 PM
That doesn't seem like much of a difference, let alone a "vast" one.

But let's go with this vague description for the sake of argument. Are you implying that the aforementioned "structure of influential players" are exercising "undue influence" over the political system without coordinating with one another? That they are all acting individually and spontaneously?
Some may coordinate while others compete with one another. Most influence is done through lobbying or campaign contributions.

I doubt there is some round table with shadowy figures working out how they can control everything. A variety of people have a variety of competing interests.

Do tell me though, how would these deep state folks control Trump so thoroughly? What mechanism would they use?

Bethere
04-26-2017, 03:55 PM
Some may coordinate while others compete with one another. Most influence is done through lobbying or campaign contributions.

I doubt there is some round table with shadowy figures working out how they can control everything. A variety of people have a variety of competing interests.

Do tell me though, how would these deep state folks control Trump so thoroughly? What mechanism would they use?

Obviously, trump and the rnc are being blackmailed.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 03:59 PM
Some may coordinate while others compete with one another. Most influence is done through lobbying or campaign contributions.

Coordination implies planning, and planning necessarily implies conspiracy.


I doubt there is some round table with shadowy figures working out how they can control everything. A variety of people have a variety of competing interests.

Because rich and powerful people sitting down together in secret and coming up with ways to maintain and expand their power and wealth at other people's expense is so unthinkable.


Do tell me though, how would these deep state folks control Trump so thoroughly? What mechanism would they use?

The exact same mechanisms they use to control foreign leaders who do not acquiesce to their demands. Propaganda, intimidation, blackmail, etc.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 04:00 PM
Obviously, trump and the rnc are being blackmailed.

Yea, by Putin!

Talk about a "conspiracy theory"...

Common Sense
04-26-2017, 04:05 PM
Coordination implies planning, and planning necessarily implies conspiracy.



Because rich and powerful people sitting down together in secret and coming up with ways to maintain and expand their power and wealth at other people's expense is so unthinkable.



The exact same mechanisms they use to control foreign leaders who do not acquiesce to their demands. Propaganda, intimidation, blackmail, etc.

Conspiracy implies unlawful. Coordination doesn't.

So you think Trump is being blackmailed or intimidated?

resister
04-26-2017, 04:06 PM
Is that the best you got, Mr. Awesome?How dare you, watch your mouth, you are speaking to the "master":)

resister
04-26-2017, 04:07 PM
Yea, by Putin!

Talk about a "conspiracy theory"...
I thought a forum rule is when you make a claim, you must back it up? So much for that!

resister
04-26-2017, 04:09 PM
Obviously, trump and the rnc are being blackmailed.If its so damn obvious, post a link.

You make a lot of claims, yet very little proof.

Credibility matters, to some...

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 04:15 PM
Conspiracy implies unlawful.

Not necessarily. It could simply refer to something harmful.


So you think Trump is being blackmailed or intimidated?

It's obvious that he is being pressured into changing his stances on a wide range of important foreign policy issues. And it just so happens that foreign policy is where the "military-industrial complex" makes most of its money. The exact nature of that pressure is difficult to describe with any specificity since much of it is happening out of public view, but from what we can observe we've already witnessed: a highly coordinated media campaign to discredit Trump and stoke anti-Russian sentiment among the public; the leaking of highly classified information as a means of ousting one of Trump's closest advisers; and a political witch-hunt conducted by the congress. The totality of this has been to bring Trump firmly under the control of the foreign policy establishment whose primary objective is the perpetuation of endless war and military empire.

The Xl
04-26-2017, 04:18 PM
Rich and powerful people using government authority to do bad things in secret = Lizard people

Yep. Although they can point it out and recognize it in national government officials they don't like, and non western foreign governments. Strong delusion and cognitive dissonance.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 04:22 PM
And this is not unique to Trump by any means. Every president has been subject to a similar process by the military-industrial complex. Obama, for all his faults, actually put up somewhat of a decent fight against them by refusing to provide lethal arms to the Ukrainian government; refusing to attack Assad after the chemical incident; and trying to promote peace with Iran. Predictably, Obama was savaged by the same establishment neocons and neoliberals for his reticence to accommodate their every whim and desire. There is simply no doubt that a "deep state" exists and that its primary motive is the perpetuation of war and empire as a means of amassing ever increasing amounts of wealth and power. It's fundamentally no different than how any other military empire operated. The parallels between the Roman empire and the US empire, for example, are the subject of much scholarly and academic examination.

The Xl
04-26-2017, 04:30 PM
And this is not unique to Trump by any means. Every president has been subject to a similar process by the military-industrial complex. Obama, for all his faults, actually put up somewhat of a decent fight against them by refusing to provide lethal arms to the Ukrainian government; refusing to attack Assad after the chemical incident; and trying to promote peace with Iran. Predictably, Obama was savaged by the same establishment neocons and neoliberals for his reticence to accommodate their every whim and desire. There is simply no doubt that a "deep state" exists and that its primary motive is the perpetuation of war and empire as a means of amassing ever increasing amounts of wealth and power. It's fundamentally no different than how any other military empire operated. The parallels between the Roman empire and the US empire, for example, are the subject of much scholarly and academic examination.

I'll give Obama a touch of credit. I don't think he was a nice guy, but I don't think he was a nut job either, I think he was just a dude who wanted to get famous and wealthy. He wasn't Ron Paul, Bernie Sanders, or even a Donald Trump, but he wasn't a psychopath like the Bush's, Clinton's, John McCain, Dick Cheny, etc. He was still a puppet who sucked badly though.

Ethereal
04-26-2017, 05:06 PM
And Tillerson now claims that sanctions will remain in place until Russia returns Crimea to the fictional state of "Ukraine", which will never, ever happen. This despite the fact that Tillerson previously said sanctions were "imprecise and ineffective". Strange how sanctions go from being "ineffective" to remaining in place forever in the course of just a few months. He, too, must have been exposed to some interesting new "facts".

MisterVeritis
04-26-2017, 05:13 PM
I would agree that The Salesman has admitted that things are more complicated than he thought and I guess he deserves some credit for that admission, especially considering his ego. Having said that, it was apparent from the beginning that he is intellectually uncurious leading to these 180's. Its one thing to evolve in your views based on newly gained insights and information and an appreciation for nuance but to pull a total about face indicates that you simply were ignorant.
You remind me of the story of the 17-year-old boy who believes his father is an idiot. At age 22 the young man cannot believe how much his father learned in just five years.

resister
04-26-2017, 05:15 PM
You remind me of the story of the 17-year-old boy who believes his father is an idiot. At age 22 the young man cannot believe how much his father learned in just five years.And at age 27 or so (it varies) the young man realizes who the fool was!

MisterVeritis
04-26-2017, 05:16 PM
Flynn and Bannon destroyed themselves.
Flynn, perhaps. Perhaps not. Bannon?

MisterVeritis
04-26-2017, 05:18 PM
When one team is down by five touchdowns, it's usually a safe assumption that they've been beaten.
Politics is more like war than football. Trump is not beaten. This war will continue. I hope Trump will win it. But he is fighting the establishment Republicans and Democrats.

Green Arrow
04-26-2017, 06:48 PM
He was so establishment that the establishment did everything in its power to stop him from becoming the president and proceeded to cripple his presidency by systematically picking off and marginalizing his anti-establishment advisers like Flynn and Bannon?

Flynn and Bannon destroyed themselves, and certainly aren't worth defending just because they come across as anti-establishment.

Please explain how Trump spent 40 years as a member of the establishment right up until he runs for president, and then right after he wins goes right back to being establishment. Explain how the one or two years in between past and present completely invalidate over 40 years of history and present actions.

Green Arrow
04-26-2017, 06:50 PM
Since the nomination of Trump, the word "establishment" has lost its meaning. It's now just another cliché.
So, that's your plan? Try to distract everyone from your failed attempt at a "gotcha" against me by trying to completely erase any meaning from the word "establishment?"

Still waiting for you to acknowledge you were wrong.

Safety
04-26-2017, 06:57 PM
So, that's your plan? Try to distract everyone from your failed attempt at a "gotcha" against me by trying to completely erase any meaning from the word "establishment?"

Still waiting for you to acknowledge you were wrong.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/97/97445165f7551b4ddc9981dbede5046bfd86a0c6c32037fce2 64f37101256b9b.jpg

resister
04-26-2017, 07:23 PM
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/97/97445165f7551b4ddc9981dbede5046bfd86a0c6c32037fce2 64f37101256b9b.jpg
17996

Green Arrow
04-26-2017, 07:57 PM
17996

Wow, you're pretty flexible!

resister
04-26-2017, 08:01 PM
Wow, you're pretty flexible!
Your face! :tongue:

Tahuyaman
04-26-2017, 11:08 PM
So, that's your plan? Try to distract everyone from your failed attempt at a "gotcha" against me by trying to completely erase any meaning from the word "establishment?"

Still waiting for you to acknowledge you were wrong.
What?

Tahuyaman
04-27-2017, 09:49 AM
So, that's your plan? Try to distract everyone from your failed attempt at a "gotcha" against me by trying to completely erase any meaning from the word "establishment?"

Still waiting for you to acknowledge you were wrong.


What is this failed attempt at a "gotcha" moment? Can you describe just what you are referring to?

donttread
04-27-2017, 04:13 PM
...just as I said he would be back when I started this thread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/76706-Trump-amp-Supporters-Are-In-Over-Their-Heads).

First he completely reversed himself on attacking Syria's government, which signaled the beginning of the end.

Then he said he was "okay" with prosecuting Assange, even though he praised Wikileaks during his campaign.

And now he's walking back his comments on NATO, claiming he did not know "much" about them during the campaign.

There is no doubt that Trump is now firmly under the control of the establishment he ran against in 2016. They have humiliated and crushed him.

Many of Trump's supporters are in denial over this and they will continue making lame excuses. But all the promises Trump made to put "America first" are no longer in effect. Once again, the interests of the establishment will come first and foremost, just as they have for decades.

So par for the course for American politicians. Too bad , as I feared he has more Donkephant in him than not.

Tahuyaman
04-29-2017, 11:47 AM
Politics is more like war than football. Trump is not beaten. This war will continue. I hope Trump will win it. But he is fighting the establishment Republicans and Democrats.
Trump is far from finished. He's trying to fight against a strong current which is resisting any change what-so-ever.

Once government establishes another entitlement it is nearly impossible to make any changes to it let alone eliminate it. Basically, it can only be replaced with another entitlement.

I would say that if he can't achieve some kind of significant tax reform with real cuts in rates fairly soon he's going to have a difficult time in the future.

Ethereal
04-29-2017, 01:08 PM
Fully neutered...


Trump: ‘I’m a Nationalist and a Globalist’ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/04/28/trump-im-a-nationalist-and-a-globalist/)

Safety
04-29-2017, 01:22 PM
Yep, so much for him representing the move from globalism to nationalism. Y'all have been played.

The Xl
04-29-2017, 02:06 PM
Voting is a waste of time. We also don't live in either a Democracy or a Republic.

Peter1469
04-29-2017, 02:10 PM
Voting is a waste of time. We also don't live in either a Democracy or a Republic.

Vote 3rd party. I do.

jimmyz
04-29-2017, 02:26 PM
Yep, so much for him representing the move from globalism to nationalism. Y'all have been played.

If we follow your logic arent you being played as well. Its not like you are in a bubble immune to Trump edict.

Safety
04-29-2017, 04:14 PM
If we follow your logic arent you being played as well. Its not like you are in a bubble immune to Trump edict.

I didn't vote for Trump, thinking he was anything other than Trump. He was not going to shake up Washington, nor is he going to do anything different than the usual status quo. Let me know what you are confused about, and I can show posts of Trump supporters saying how he was going to end globalism and make America great again.

gamewell45
04-29-2017, 04:25 PM
Vote 3rd party. I do.

Same here! :)

jimmyz
04-29-2017, 07:08 PM
I didn't vote for Trump, thinking he was anything other than Trump. He was not going to shake up Washington, nor is he going to do anything different than the usual status quo. Let me know what you are confused about, and I can show posts of Trump supporters saying how he was going to end globalism and make America great again.
My point is that you and me are caught up in Trumponian life at least for the remaining 4 years whether we voted for him or not. I fear we will have another 4 years to follow. Save your money and pay down your mortgage brother.

birddog
04-29-2017, 07:21 PM
I voted for Trump. He was certainly better than any alternative. IMHO, only a silly voter would vote third party, and I'm in a blue state by the way.

Safety
04-29-2017, 07:24 PM
My point is that you and me are caught up in Trumponian life at least for the remaining 4 years whether we voted for him or not. I fear we will have another 4 years to follow. Save your money and pay down your mortgage brother.

Mortgage? What mortgage, for in another thread, you said this to me... "You got your SNAP card re-upped and your AFDC welfare check this month. The country is running just peachy."

So, what was your point again?

Captain Obvious
04-29-2017, 07:24 PM
I voted for Trump. He was certainly better than any alternative. IMHO, only a silly voter would vote third party, and I'm in a blue state by the way.

Only a part Eichmann would support a one-party state.

I stopped selling my dignity at the voting booth a while ago. Regardless of who wins, I can look in the mirror and say "I didn't support this one-party "democracy"".

jimmyz
04-29-2017, 07:42 PM
Mortgage? What mortgage, for in another thread, you said this to me... "You got your SNAP card re-upped and your AFDC welfare check this month. The country is running just peachy."



So, what was your point again?



Pure hyperbole. You are anything but a stereotype. Your posts exemplify intelligence and reason (with a bit of racial defensiveness). My apologies for my negative inferences and my character assignation of you in my posts on this forum. - Jim

Peter1469
04-29-2017, 07:54 PM
I voted for Trump. He was certainly better than any alternative. IMHO, only a silly voter would vote third party, and I'm in a blue state by the way.

Trump did throw a curve ball. But in general there isn't much of a difference between the two parties. They are out to spend us into oblivion. One party just slower than the other.

Green Arrow
04-29-2017, 08:42 PM
I voted for Trump. He was certainly better than any alternative. IMHO, only a silly voter would vote third party, and I'm in a blue state by the way.

Only a silly voter would bother voting Republican or Democrat when they know their vote is irrelevant.

texan
04-29-2017, 09:03 PM
Not a big fan of either party but they wouldn't stop me from voting for the best candidate available. The best candidate is NEVER a socialist. Trump was the best we had at the time. It was a time for change. Things are changing and he is just getting started. He will likely be re-elected so you socialists better get your minds around that notion.

This is is a capitalist country. End of story. Lots of other places that serve up the liberal holy grail that are really great, really make a difference. Oh wait, no there isn't we provide them all the protection. Without the badass capitalists they would be conquered already. These are facts.

Now on carry on with fantasy world talk.

texan
04-29-2017, 09:08 PM
Trump did throw a curve ball. But in general there isn't much of a difference between the two parties. They are out to spend us into oblivion. One party just slower than the other.
I hear you but that has changed a bit. The democrats are now weaker than ever on national security. Look at the last 8 years of Jimmy Obama. The basic isolationist / worldly citizen approach has let the dogs out. The bad guys are everywhere and threatening the world. Russians invading neighboring countries. Iran using surrogates unchecked. Syrian using chemical weapons more than once with Russia approving. NK constantly firing missiles unprovoked. Open boarders for all.

No no there is now a defining difference.

Green Arrow
04-29-2017, 09:53 PM
I hear you but that has changed a bit. The democrats are now weaker than ever on national security. Look at the last 8 years of Jimmy Obama. The basic isolationist / worldly citizen approach has let the dogs out. The bad guys are everywhere and threatening the world. Russians invading neighboring countries. Iran using surrogates unchecked. Syrian using chemical weapons more than once with Russia approving. NK constantly firing missiles unprovoked. Open boarders for all.

No no there is now a defining difference.

If you think Obama was an isolationist, you have no idea what the word "isolationist" means.

gamewell45
04-30-2017, 08:35 AM
I voted for Trump. He was certainly better than any alternative. IMHO, only a silly voter would vote third party, and I'm in a blue state by the way.
Why cast your vote for a crook in the first place? Both major candidates were/are crooks, liars and incompetents and I can only speak for myself but there is no way i'd knowingly vote for someone who cannot be trusted. Some people say they'd vote for the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil no matter which way you paint it. Better to have a clear conscience then one clouded with misjudgment.

Bethere
04-30-2017, 11:11 AM
If you think Obama was an isolationist, you have no idea what the word "isolationist" means.

True, but he isn't a neo con either.

Green Arrow
04-30-2017, 11:53 AM
True, but he isn't a neo con either.
He was pretty damn close.

Peter1469
04-30-2017, 12:22 PM
Why cast your vote for a crook in the first place? Both major candidates were/are crooks, liars and incompetents and I can only speak for myself but there is no way i'd knowingly vote for someone who cannot be trusted. Some people say they'd vote for the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil no matter which way you paint it. Better to have a clear conscience then one clouded with misjudgment.

Vote third party.

Peter1469
04-30-2017, 12:23 PM
True, but he isn't a neo con either.

No he wasn't.

Peter1469
04-30-2017, 12:27 PM
He was pretty damn close.
He was greatly influenced by three close advisors who were liberal war hawks. Similar to neocons, but a bit different.

Susan Rice, Samantha Powers, and another I can remember her name.

This article is from 2012:

Save Us from the Liberal Hawks (https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/02/13/save-us-from-the-liberal-hawks/)

texan
05-01-2017, 10:42 AM
If you think Obama was an isolationist, you have no idea what the word "isolationist" means.

I know what it traditionally means pal! I said citizen of the world which isn't much different as it turns out on national defense. Sorry but it's true. He isolated us from the world when it meant standing up. They coined it leading from behind. I know you loved his sit back and get pushed around by bully bad guys. Unfortunately history shows what happens when you operate that way. It doesn't work.

Scorecard
China building their island
Russia meddling everywhere
Iran doing whatever they want and using surrogates against us everywhere
NK doing anything they want.

Save your usual ridiculous question. What would you do? Answer sure as f not what we did! Now it has to be cleaned up. The socialist World you dream of only works in a lab environment.

Green Arrow
05-01-2017, 11:15 AM
I know what it traditionally means pal! I said citizen of the world which isn't much different as it turns out on national defense. Sorry but it's true. He isolated us from the world when it meant standing up. They coined it leading from behind. I know you loved his sit back and get pushed around by bully bad guys. Unfortunately history shows what happens when you operate that way. It doesn't work.

Scorecard
China building their island
Russia meddling everywhere
Iran doing whatever they want and using surrogates against us everywhere
NK doing anything they want.

Save your usual ridiculous question. What would you do? Answer sure as f not what we did! Now it has to be cleaned up. The socialist World you dream of only works in a lab environment.

Obama launched over 5,000% more drone strikes than George W. Bush. He bombed ~7 countries, helped depose the leaders of at least four, and nearly helped depose Assad in Syria. He tried to expand free trade to the entire Asian world. He sent operatives to work campaigns in two foreign democracies.

None of that even scratches the surface of what Obama did. He was a stone cold interventionist, through and through. Not one single action of his was isolationist.

Tahuyaman
05-01-2017, 11:22 AM
Anything was better than Clinton! Even if he does tank, I don't think it would of compared to that women. The SC and the second amendment 2 good examples.

Prior to the election, I was one of those who believed that Trump or Clinton would be equal disasters as POTUS. Trump has is obvious flaws, but I'm not as opposed to him as I was then. I still would not vote for Clinton under any circumstances.