Docs say saturated fats do not clog arteries

[Peter1469]

Docs say saturated fats do not clog arteries (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/796452/Saturated-fat-Cardiologists-warnings-clogs-arteries-wrong-health-exercise)

The original study that has been used to claim that saturated fats clog arteries specifically stated that it did not show causation.


hey said scare stories that diary products like butter and full-fat milk pose health risks were misleading as was an obsession with counting cholesterol.

Instead, the best way to protect against stress and stave off killer coronary heart disease was simply to eat “real food” and take a brisk daily walk. (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/796209/heart-disease-brisk-walk-health-illness)


Respected cardiologists Dr Aseem Malhotra, Professor Rita Redberg, of UCSF School of Medicine, San Francisco and Pascal Meier of University Hospital Geneva and University College, London, said evidence suggests no association between saturated fat and heightened risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes or death.

Note, you still have to eat good fats.

[Crepitus]

I've kinda decided if it's something people have been eating since forever (butter, milk, cheese, red meat, and so on) it's probably not all that bad for you.

[rcfieldz]

As long as you leave them on the shelf I hear it's ok.

[Trumpster]

Docs say saturated fats do not clog arteries (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/796452/Saturated-fat-Cardiologists-warnings-clogs-arteries-wrong-health-exercise)
The original study that has been used to claim that saturated fats clog arteries specifically stated that it did not show causation.



Dr. Mike Knapton, Associate Medical Director at the British Heart Foundation, said: "The Mediterranean diet and daily exercise can help reduce heart disease risk, but I'm afraid the claims about saturated fat made in this opinion piece are unhelpful and misleading."

I agree with Dr. Knapton: The claims about saturated fat are unhelpful and misleading. One of the three doctors in your article, Dr. Malhortra, recommends the Mediteraranean diet and puts emphasis on "...healthy high-fat foods like nuts and olive oil." The Mediterranean diet is the opposite of a high protein diet.

That's the reason why the Mediterranean diet is usually recommended over the standard American diet. The standard American diet is much higher in animal protein and animal protein is where you will find the most saturated fat. Plus the fact that a high protein diet tends to displace high fiber, nutritious foods like fresh fruit, vegetables and legumes.

Therefore, the three doctors don't seem to make a convincing case why avoiding saturated fat is harmful. It seems their point is that it's not saturated fat alone that causes heart disease. Well, as far as I recall, no one ever said it was just saturated fat acting alone that causes heart disease. It's usually the result of multiple lifestyle factors acting in concert.



Note, you still have to eat good fats.
I agree; and hopefully, the good fats will displace much of the saturated animal-fats.

[Peter1469]

I agree; and hopefully, the good fats will displace much of the saturated animal-fats.

Grass fed beef and cage free chickens / eggs have good fats.

[The Xl]

I eat balanced so it's whatever to me either way. Man isn't an expert at science yet, so I take everything with a grain of salt.

[Mister D]

I've long held that the problem with meat consumption is that people eat too much of it at the expense of vegetables and fruits.

[Ethereal]

The sugar industry bribed the government and academia to cover up the role that refined sugars play in obesity and to attribute the problems to fats.

It was all a lie.

The fatty deposits (including cholesterol) found in arteries are a symptom, not a cause.

This is slowly coming to light as scientists with integrity conduct further research.

[Peter1469]

The sugar industry bribed the government and academia to cover up the role that refined sugars play in obesity and to attribute the problems to fats.

It was all a lie.

The fatty deposits (including cholesterol) found in arteries are a symptom, not a cause.

This is slowly coming to light as scientists with integrity conduct further research.

And the Alt-Medicine docs have been talking about this for two decades or longer.

[Trumpster]

Grass fed beef and cage free chickens / eggs have good fats.

If someone decides to eat beef in limited amounts, grass fed beef is definitely better. But for better results, compare the Mediterranean diet with the Okinawan diet, or better yet, the Seventh Day Adventist diet. It seems that those who eat the least amount of animal protein are healthier and live longer. The Japanese elders, who live in Okinawa, keep a few chickens that roam outside and they typically eat about 3 eggs per week. They don't eat beef. They do eat some pork but only on special occasions/holidays. They also eat some fish but not very much. (Note: Among the younger Okinawans, fast food has been creeping into their lifestyle.)

The Seventh Day Adventists are mostly vegetarians and vegans. A large, long-term study, shows they are among the longest lived people of any large community. They live in Loma Linda California and their average life expectancy is a full ten years longer than the average American. Some of them do eat some meat but typically the average amount is less than one serving per week.

[Peter1469]

These days meats are only a small portion of my diet.
If someone decides to eat beef in limited amounts, grass fed beef is definitely better. But for better results, compare the Mediterranean diet with the Okinawan diet, or better yet, the Seventh Day Adventist diet. It seems that those who eat the least amount of animal protein are healthier and live longer. The Japanese elders, who live in Okinawa, keep a few chickens that roam outside and they typically eat about 3 eggs per week. They don't eat beef. They do eat some pork but only on special occasions/holidays. They also eat some fish but not very much.


The Seventh Day Adventists are mostly vegetarians and vegans. A large, long-term study, shows they are among the longest lived people of any large community. They live in Loma Linda California and their average life expectancy is a full ten years longer than the average American. Some of them do eat some meat but typically the average amount is less than one serving per week.

[Trumpster]

I've long held that the problem with meat consumption is that people eat too much of it at the expense of vegetables and fruits.

Yes, that's part of the problem. One of the reasons the Mediterranean diet is better than the standard American diet is because it calls for a very small portion of lean meat.

[Trumpster]

The three doctors made contradictory statements:

1) They recommend eating "real food".

2) The article stated: Their view is further vindication of the Mediterranean diet.

Since they didn't define "real food" I will assume they mean "natural whole foods". The problem is: the Mediterranean diet is loaded with processed foods. So I think they should have come up with a better example. (The Mediterranean area includes Italy, France and Greece among others - total 23). The following list will provide some examples:

Whole food:............................................. ................................................. Processed food:

Natural whole olives (unsalted)........................................ .................................Olive oil

Intact whole grains............................................ ..............................................whit e bread, pasta, cakes, pies and pastries commonly eaten in Mediterranean countries

Red grapes............................................ .................................................. ........Red wine

Raw whole milk.............................................. .................................................. Butter, cheese and other processed dairy products

Grass fed beef.............................................. .................................................. ..Factory farmed beef and processed meat products (like sausage, lunch meats, salami etc.)

Fresh whole fruit............................................. .................................................. Fruit juice

[Mister D]

That's a good point and one I've made before. Much of our diet is processed. Pasta, bread, dairy products etc. is all by definition processed. I think most pf us know what they mean by the term but it is a poor choice, IMO.

[Dr. Who]

That's a good point and one I've made before. Much of our diet is processed. Pasta, bread, dairy products etc. is all by definition processed. I think most pf us know what they mean by the term but it is a poor choice, IMO.
Pasta and bread made from refined flours are processed, but whole grain pastas and breads are far less processed. American cheese is processed, but many cheeses are not 'processed' in the industrial sense, if you are purchasing real cheeses. The real Mediterranean diet includes more vegetables and fruit than meat or cheese. Meats and cheeses tend to flavor foods and add some protein but are not the primary ingredients. Fish is a fairly common main protein choice. Fresh salads are common to the Mediterranean diet. Then again, what happens in big cities is often much different than in small towns where the real Mediterranean diets tend to prevail.

[Mister D]

Pasta and bread made from refined flours are processed, but whole grain pastas and breads are far less processed. American cheese is processed, but many cheeses are not 'processed' in the industrial sense, if you are purchasing real cheeses. The real Mediterranean diet includes more vegetables and fruit than meat or cheese. Meats and cheeses tend to flavor foods and add some protein but are not the primary ingredients. Fish is a fairly common main protein choice. Fresh salads are common to the Mediterranean diet. Then again, what happens in big cities is often much different than in small towns where the real Mediterranean diets tend to prevail.
Pasta and bread are by definition processed products. So are virtually all dairy products. Oils and frozen peas are also processed products. Much of what we eat is processed to a greater or lesser extent. "Processed' has become scare word even though food has been processed since the dawn of civilization. But, like I said, I think most of us know what is typically meant by "processed".

I will often buy about a half a pound of pork sausage as flavoring for my whole grain pasta meals. I usually get 4 servings out of it.

[Mister D]

Strictly speaking, I eat quite a bit of processed food.

[Dr. Who]

Pasta and bread are by definition processed products. So are virtually all dairy products. Oils and frozen peas are also processed products. Much of what we eat is processed to a greater or lesser extent. "Processed' has become scare word even though food has been processed since the dawn of civilization. But, like I said, I think most of us know what is typically meant by "processed".

I will often buy about a half a pound of pork sausage as flavoring for my whole grain pasta meals. I usually get 4 servings out of it.

By definition anytime you are not eating raw food, it is processed. I agree, there is processed and then there is "processed". If the food contains things that you cannot pronounce and all of the nutritional value has been removed, it is "processed" in the negative sense. People need to understand the difference. Unfortunately, many people have no idea what they are eating and don't particularly care until their diet lands them in the hospital.

[Mister D]

By definition anytime you are not eating raw food, it is processed. I agree, there is processed and then there is "processed". If the food contains things that you cannot pronounce and all of the nutritional value has been removed, it is "processed" in the negative sense. People need to understand the difference. Unfortunately, many people have no idea what they are eating and don't particularly care until their diet lands them in the hospital.
Bad eating habits are some of the toughest to break. The stuff I see at work sometimes...it's not my place to say anything but I see adults eating chicken fingers and fries for lunch.

[Captain Obvious]

Bad eating habits are some of the toughest to break. The stuff I see at work sometimes...it's not my place to say anything but I see adults eating chicken fingers and fries for lunch.

And Fillet o' fish and fries.

[Mister D]

And Fillet o' fish and fries.
You won't let the Filet O' Fish rest! :laugh: It's certainly processed. I mean it's breaded and frozen fish. Ditto on the fries but it is the one thing from McD's that I like. I get it without the sauce and cheese though. Cuts the fat by 60%.

[Mister D]

It has been months since I had that, actually. That might be a Friday snack.

[Dr. Who]

Bad eating habits are some of the toughest to break. The stuff I see at work sometimes...it's not my place to say anything but I see adults eating chicken fingers and fries for lunch.
If that's their guilty pleasure once a month, no big deal. If their entire diet consists of that kind of food...it's really not healthy. Fast food is a crap shoot and often the healthy choices are far more expensive. Hopefully, they eat something better for dinner.

[Mister D]

If that's their guilty pleasure once a month, no big deal. If their entire diet consists of that kind of food...it's really not healthy. Fast food is a crap shoot and often the healthy choices are far more expensive. Hopefully, they eat something better for dinner.
It's more common than it should be but I don't want to exaggerate. A lot of my colleagues try to eat reasonably well but there are some folks who like what they like and are set in their ways even if it will literally kill them at some point.

[Common]

Ive been fortunate ive never had high blood pressure, or high cholesterol or diabetes. I attribute that to my wife who wont feed me junk and doesnt buy it and a regular exercize regime which admittedly gets harder as I get older. Harder in the sense of motivation to get up and go, but I do it

[Common]

Pasta and bread made from refined flours are processed, but whole grain pastas and breads are far less processed. American cheese is processed, but many cheeses are not 'processed' in the industrial sense, if you are purchasing real cheeses. The real Mediterranean diet includes more vegetables and fruit than meat or cheese. Meats and cheeses tend to flavor foods and add some protein but are not the primary ingredients. Fish is a fairly common main protein choice. Fresh salads are common to the Mediterranean diet. Then again, what happens in big cities is often much different than in small towns where the real Mediterranean diets tend to prevail.
All we eat now is whole grain pasta. We buy a whole grain pasta imported from Italy, named Alma, we love the texture and the taste is very good. Its imported by a florida company and they sell it in publics. I dont know if its a national brand or not. If you see it buy it.

[Dr. Who]

It's more common than it should be but I don't want to exaggerate. A lot of my colleagues try to eat reasonably well but there are some folks who like what they like and are set in their ways even if it will literally kill them at some point.

One sign is large amounts of belly fat and obesity in general. Obesity has been declared a worse health factor than smoking.

[Common]

Yes, that's part of the problem. One of the reasons the Mediterranean diet is better than the standard American diet is because it calls for a very small portion of lean meat.
If you exercize you need 60 grams of protein a day. Its not easy to take in 60 grams of protein every day. The mediteranean diet seemed lacking in enough protein. Of course you could supplement with bars, drinks etc

[Common]

It's more common than it should be but I don't want to exaggerate. A lot of my colleagues try to eat reasonably well but there are some folks who like what they like and are set in their ways even if it will literally kill them at some point.
Mr D ethnic bad eating habits are the hardest to break. Tell a Polish person or German they cant have keibasi or wursts. Tell an italian you cant have sausage and meatballs etc. Those habits that were instilled all your young life are incredilbly hard to break. All european ethnics ate heavy bread diets. Its a staple to fill the belly

I love lithawanian bread its a HUGE dark break loaf, weighs about 4 lbs and it costs a FORTUNE today. Man is that good though

[Dr. Who]

All we eat now is whole grain pasta. We buy a whole grain pasta imported from Italy, named Alma, we love the texture and the taste is very good. Its imported by a florida company and they sell it in publics. I dont know if its a national brand or not. If you see it buy it.
I can't say that I've seen it, but because my hubby is suffering from kidney failure, I cannot buy whole grain anything because he's not allowed to eat it along with nuts and a whole host of vegetables. It's frustrating. I know there are some whole grain pastas that I like. The ones I don't tend to care for are the thicker pastas which seem a bit chewy or gummy if they are whole grain, but I haven't tried them all.

[Mister D]

Mr D ethnic bad eating habits are the hardest to break. Tell a Polish person or German they cant have keibasi or wursts. Tell an italian you cant have sausage and meatballs etc. Those habits that were instilled all your young life are incredilbly hard to break. All european ethnics ate heavy bread diets. Its a staple to fill the belly

I love lithwanian break its a HUGE dark break loaf, weighs about 4 lbs and it costs a FORTUNE today. Man is that good though

It's hard to reconcile kielbasa or liverwurst but I have spaghetti and meatballs every 6 weeks or so. I have it with whole grain pasta. Love the stuff. Grass fed beef and pork mix. Mmmm. But anyway, we weren't so obese back then. I don't think it's the ethnic dietary habits but a combination of greater portions, less exercise and a lot more sugar.

[Common]

I can't say that I've seen it, but because my hubby is suffering from kidney failure, I cannot buy whole grain anything because he's not allowed to eat it along with nuts and a whole host of vegetables. It's frustrating. I know there are some whole grain pastas that I like. The ones I don't tend to care for are the thicker pastas which seem a bit chewy or gummy if they are whole grain, but I haven't tried them all.
Thats what makes this one better, its not real think and the texture is much closer to reg pasta.
Yes whole grains are hard on the kidneys. When I had cellulitis my kidney function dropped down badly. They were pumping me with fluids and antibiotics. I could only eat certain foods.

[Mister D]

I can't say that I've seen it, but because my hubby is suffering from kidney failure, I cannot buy whole grain anything because he's not allowed to eat it along with nuts and a whole host of vegetables. It's frustrating. I know there are some whole grain pastas that I like. The ones I don't tend to care for are the thicker pastas which seem a bit chewy or gummy if they are whole grain, but I haven't tried them all.
I remember you saying you think it has a chalky taste and some of the thicker cuts do. Penne, for example, is best cooked a little longer than al dente would normally require.

[Mister D]

One sign is large amounts of belly fat and obesity in general. Obesity has been declared a worse health factor than smoking.

That's just it. The people in question are visibly overweight but what can I say? It's awkward.

[Dr. Who]

Thats what makes this one better, its not real think and the texture is much closer to reg pasta.
Yes whole grains are hard on the kidneys. When I had cellulitis my kidney function dropped down badly. They were pumping me with fluids and antibiotics. I could only eat certain foods.
Before the kidney problems, I would avoid whole grain rigatoni and penne for the issues I mentioned. Certainly, if they were thinner, they would be better.

[Dr. Who]

I remember you saying you think it has a chalky taste and some of the thicker cuts do. Penne, for example, is best cooked a little longer than al dente would normally require.

With some, no amount of extra cooking seemed to do the trick, but perhaps they have improved in the last few years.

[Common]

With some, no amount of extra cooking seemed to do the trick, but perhaps they have improved in the last few years.
There is a huge difference in brands with whole grain pastas. Muellers is disgusting, the taste the texture everything about it is terrible.

Barilla and Ronzoni arent bad but this alma whole grain is excellent

[Captain Obvious]

There is a huge difference in brands with whole grain pastas. Muellers is disgusting, the taste the texture everything about it is terrible.

Barilla and Ronzoni arent bad but this alma whole grain is excellent

I haven't seen Muellers in decades

[Mister D]

With some, no amount of extra cooking seemed to do the trick, but perhaps they have improved in the last few years.
I've only taken to it over the last two year or so. I buy Barilla and Whole Foods brands. I eat a lot of it now, actually. Spaghetti and linguine are my favorites but elbows and penne sometimes make an appearance. One thing I have never seen on the supermarket shelf is whole grain lasagna sheets. A grass fed beef beef lasagna is something I want to try making. I could eat that all week.

[Mister D]

I haven't seen Muellers in decades
Still out there. I've seen it.

[Mister D]

There is a huge difference in brands with whole grain pastas. Muellers is disgusting, the taste the texture everything about it is terrible.

Barilla and Ronzoni arent bad but this alma whole grain is excellent
There is a great Italian brand that Shoprite sells. I forget the name but it's great. Pricey though.

[Dr. Who]

That's just it. The people in question are visibly overweight but what can I say? It's awkward.
You can't say anything, because people will be insulted, but it's a dietary epidemic in America. If you go to Europe, people are thinner - not necessarily skinny but not morbidly obese. They also lead a more active lifestyle. They bike to work and walk frequently. However, their cities are more human that way. They are not shrines to the automobile.

At the end of the day, you can't legislate eating habits. All you can do as an individual is to advertise that what you are eating is really delicious and hope people might get curious and try it instead of those deep fried nutritionless options. Some folks exchange recipes...

[Dr. Who]

I've only taken to it over the last two year or so. I buy Barilla and Whole Foods brands. I eat a lot of it now, actually. Spaghetti and linguine are my favorites but elbows and penne sometimes make an appearance. One thing I have never seen on the supermarket shelf is whole grain lasagna sheets. A grass fed beef beef lasagna is something I want to try making. I could eat that all week.

Probably because lasagna sheets are thicker. :undecided: If you really want to try it, I'm sure there are recipes for homemade whole grain pasta on the internet. Without spending a ton of money, you could get a manual pasta roller and make your own on a weekend with some whole grain flour.

[Captain Obvious]

You can't say anything, because people will be insulted, but it's a dietary epidemic in America. If you go to Europe, people are thinner - not necessarily skinny but not morbidly obese. They also lead a more active lifestyle. They bike to work and walk frequently. However, their cities are more human that way. They are not shrines to the automobile.

At the end of the day, you can't legislate eating habits. All you can do as an individual is to advertise that what you are eating is really delicious and hope people might get curious and try it instead of those deep fried nutritionless options. Some folks exchange recipes...

Cheap garbage McFuckwiches to sell to the low information crowd.

Hooray for capitalism...

[Dr. Who]

There is a huge difference in brands with whole grain pastas. Muellers is disgusting, the taste the texture everything about it is terrible.

Barilla and Ronzoni arent bad but this alma whole grain is excellent
I usually buy Barilla. The price difference is not enough to go for the lesser pasta. Alma is not available in my supermarket.

[Mister D]

Probably because lasagna sheets are thicker. :undecided: If you really want to try it, I'm sure there are recipes for homemade whole grain pasta on the internet. Without spending a ton of money, you could get a manual pasta roller and make your own on a weekend with some whole grain flour.
That sounds complicated. :smiley: Someone must have had this idea before. I never bothered to look online. I will try that.

[Mister D]

Oh wow Barilla makes one.

https://www.amazon.com/Barilla-Whole-Grain-Pasta-Lasagne/dp/B00IXHPV6A

I have NEVER seen this at the store but this is cool. Next time I get a few books from Amazon I'll just add a couple boxes of pasta to my order.

[Captain Obvious]

Probably because lasagna sheets are thicker. :undecided: If you really want to try it, I'm sure there are recipes for homemade whole grain pasta on the internet. Without spending a ton of money, you could get a manual pasta roller and make your own on a weekend with some whole grain flour.

We made lasagna pasta recently, an automated roller is a necessity.

[Dr. Who]

We made lasagna pasta recently, an automated roller is a necessity.
I have an Italian manual roller and the pasta attachment for my KitchenAid mixer. The manual works great. It just takes a little longer. However, there is nothing like homemade pasta. The texture is so much nicer.

[Captain Obvious]

I have an Italian manual roller and the pasta attachment for my KitchenAid mixer. The manual works great. It just takes a little longer. However, there is nothing like homemade pasta. The texture is so much nicer.

We tried it with a rolling pin once, it was less than optimal.

With the pasta maker it was super easy. Super easy, easier than linguini.

Home made pasta is far, far superior to dried.

[Dr. Who]

Cheap garbage McFuckwiches to sell to the low information crowd.

Hooray for capitalism...

Fast food is as extreme as politics. One the one hand you have all manner of seriously bad cheap options and on the other hand you can buy a giant salad for $10. Of course, you will often be starving after a couple of hours and sniffing around the vending machines.

[Dr. Who]

We tried it with a rolling pin once, it was less than optimal.

With the pasta maker it was super easy. Super easy, easier than linguini.

Home made pasta is far, far superior to dried.
I've done the rolling pin thing. It's great, but really time consuming. The manual pasta rolling machine is much better in general, except for pierogi. The KitchenAid is pretty fast, plus you have two hands available to pick up the pay off.

[Captain Obvious]

Fast food is as extreme as politics. One the one hand you have all manner of seriously bad cheap options and on the other hand you can buy a giant salad for $10. Of course, you will often be starving after a couple of hours and sniffing around the vending machines.

It's one of the ethical downfalls of capitalism IMO.

You can add the absolute crap Walmart and those dollar stores sell too, they prey on the underprivileged.

[Dr. Who]

It's one of the ethical downfalls of capitalism IMO.

You can add the absolute crap Walmart and those dollar stores sell too, they prey on the underprivileged.

I won't buy any food at either. I don't want melamine in my food or substantially expired product. TBH the food I like is not actually sold at either.

[Captain Obvious]

I won't buy any food at either. I don't want melamine in my food or substantially expired product. TBH the food I like is not actually sold at either.

I remember, probably a decade ago buying ground meat at Walmart - the 10lb in those tubes, bought two of them. Was making sloppy joe, there was all of this... don't know what the fuck it was, shredded rubber or something in there. I bagged it and took that and the unopened tube we didn't use back for a refund.

At that point I stopped buying anything other than dry goods and name brands there. It's total crap but people eat it up.

[Dr. Who]

I remember, probably a decade ago buying ground meat at Walmart - the 10lb in those tubes, bought two of them. Was making sloppy joe, there was all of this... don't know what the fuck it was, shredded rubber or something in there. I bagged it and took that and the unopened tube we didn't use back for a refund.

At that point I stopped buying anything other than dry goods and name brands there. It's total crap but people eat it up.
Ugh, that pink slime ground beef in tubes is disgusting. I won't buy it anywhere, least of all at WalMart. (I bought it once in the past out of desperation because there was zero normal ground beef on offer - never again).

[Captain Obvious]

Ugh, that pink slime ground beef in tubes is disgusting. I won't buy it anywhere, least of all at WalMart. (I bought it once in the past out of desperation because there was zero normal ground beef on offer - never again).

The advent of "mechanically processed chicken" was the point where I started paying more attention to stuff.

Pretty much stopped eating any fast food at that point also.

[Dr. Who]

The advent of "mechanically processed chicken" was the point where I started paying more attention to stuff.

Pretty much stopped eating any fast food at that point also.

Sometimes it's unavoidable i.e. when you are starving on a long trip and that's all there is, but I agree particularly wrt chicken.

[Captain Obvious]

Sometimes it's unavoidable i.e. when you are starving on a long trip and that's all there is, but I agree particularly wrt chicken.

I have eaten fast food over the years but rarely, maybe once or twice a year, under the circumstances that you just described.

Outside of that I just don't do it, I usually feel like shit afterwards. I'll do ramen noodels or something before I go there, or a pizza.

[Trumpster]

If you exercize you need 60 grams of protein a day. Its not easy to take in 60 grams of protein every day. The mediteranean diet seemed lacking in enough protein. Of course you could supplement with bars, drinks etc

Search: The Protein Myth: Why You Need Less Protein Than You Think

The National Health And Nutrition Examination Survey found that the average American male consumes 102 grams of protein per day, while the average female eats about 70 grams. That's almost twice the daily recommended intake established by the Food and Nutrition Board.
If one eats a healthy diet, almost everything eaten contains some protein and it all adds up. I believe a serving of whole grain pasta or whole grain rice contains about 3 grams of protein. All the vegetables we eat contain some protein and one serving of beans (1/2 cup) contains about 6 to 8 grams of protein. Even fruit contains a little.

[Peter1469]

If you are actively exercising you need more protein than those who are not.

[Trumpster]

If you are actively exercising you need more protein than those who are not.

That sounds like a true statement, but how do you know how much protein and from what source? Does it necessarily mean that you need to eat more meat? I'm a vegan and I walk for a half hour every morning; then I work out with weights, do deep knee bends, pushups etc.

Famous athletes who are vegans:

Carl Lewis: Olympic-metal winning track star

Scott Jurek: Ultramarathoner

Murray Rose: Australian swimmer who won four gold metals

Mac Danzig: Famous vegan fighter (MMA and UFC competitor)

Robert Cheeke: American body builder

Mike Tyson: Became a vegan after he retired from boxing and said it was a worthwhile lifestyle change.

Rich Roll: Competed successfully in Ultraman World Championships and Ironman-distance triathlons

Patrick Neshek: MLB pitcher

[Peter1469]

Regarding how much protein you need, there are formulas you can look up. I am not sure it matters if you get it from meat for otherwise, so long as the source is quality.

Yes, I know that there are a few world class athletes who are vegan or vegetarian.

Some people can eat that way. Many cannot.

That sounds like a true statement, but how do you know how much protein and from what source? Does it necessarily mean that you need to eat more meat? I'm a vegan and I walk for a half hour every morning; then I work out with weights, do deep knee bends, pushups etc.

Famous athletes who are vegans:

Carl Lewis: Olympic-metal winning track star

Scott Jurek: Ultramarathoner

Murray Rose: Australian swimmer who won four gold metals

Mac Danzig: Famous vegan fighter (MMA and UFC competitor)

Robert Cheeke: American body builder

Mike Tyson: Became a vegan after he retired from boxing and said it was a worthwhile lifestyle change.

Rich Roll: Competed successfully in Ultraman World Championships and Ironman-distance triathlons

Patrick Neshek: MLB pitcher

[Trumpster]

I am not sure it matters if you get it from meat for otherwise, so long as the source is quality.

Well, yes, it's very important to consume as much plant material as possible for various health reasons. There's a lot of new information that I'm reading about now and I'll present it as soon as I get it organized.

[Peter1469]

Well, yes, it's very important to consume as much plant material as possible for various health reasons. There's a lot of new information that I'm reading about now and I'll present it as soon as I get it organized.

For many people, animal protein is important. I know a subset of people can do without it.

But I am talking about small portions. I rarely eat more than 8 ounces of meat in a meal. Often closer to 3-4 ounces. Veggies and a starch like brown rice make up the bulk on the meal.

Unlike when I was younger- I could eat a 48 ounce steak along with the potato and salad. And then get desert.

[Mister D]

Human beings evolved to eat meat. That's all I need to know. I have many ethical concerns about how animals are raised but as far as a vegan diet is concerned....no thanks.

[Peter1469]

Human beings evolved to eat meat. That's all I need to know. I have many ethical concerns about how animals are raised but as far as a vegan diet is concerned....no thanks.

A large subset of the population could not be healthy on a vegan diet. Or a vegetarian diet. Of course, some can.

[Mister D]

A large subset of the population could not be healthy on a vegan diet. Or a vegetarian diet. Of course, some can.
I have vegetarian days here and there. I rarely eat meat at work so if I don't have any animal protein with dinner there won't be any meat that day.

[Trumpster]

Human beings evolved to eat meat. That's all I need to know. I have many ethical concerns about how animals are raised but as far as a vegan diet is concerned....no thanks.

Well, I would never say that a vegan diet is for everyone, that wouldn't be realistic.

Did human beings evolve to eat meat? Yes, but I think that statement can be somewhat misleading. Eating meat was particularly advantageous for survival if you look back many thousands of years. For various reasons:
1) During the ice age, for example, it's likely that plant foods were relatively scarce, so meat from wild game kept people alive. 2) Paleolithic people were much more physically active than we are today so they needed a concentrated source of energy that would keep them going while hunting and gathering.


Back then, I believe it has been said that the average lifespan was about 20. There were no worries about what factory farmed beef or grass fed beef would do to one's health at an advanced old age like 65, 75, 85 or older.
Paleolithic people didn't have to worry about getting cardiovascular disease, cancer, digestive diseases, autoimmune diseases, arthritis and other health issues. Their diet served them well for their time.

Now we have to think about what foods are best for those of us who plan to live to an advance old age. And many large, long-term population studies now indicate that eating animal protein is not the most advantageous diet.

[Common Sense]

Any human is able to live on a vegetarian diet. It may be difficult, but it is completely possible for anyone to be a vegetarian. There are nearly half a billion vegetarians in the world.

[Mister D]

Well, I would never say that a vegan diet is for everyone, that wouldn't be realistic.

Did human beings evolve to eat meat? Yes, but I think that statement can be somewhat misleading. Eating meat was particularly advantageous for survival if you look back many thousands of years. For various reasons:
1) During the ice age, for example, it's likely that plant foods were relatively scarce, so meat from wild game kept people alive. 2) Paleolithic people were much more physically active than we are today so they needed a concentrated source of energy that would keep them going while hunting and gathering.


Back then, I believe it has been said that the average lifespan was about 20. There were no worries about what factory farmed beef or grass fed beef would do to one's health at an advanced old age like 65, 75, 85 or older.
Paleolithic people didn't have to worry about getting cardiovascular disease, cancer, digestive diseases, autoimmune diseases, arthritis and other health issues. Their diet served them well for their time.

Now we have to think about what foods are best for those of us who plan to live to an advance old age. And many large, long-term population studies now indicate that eating meat is not the most advantageous.

Not only was it advantageous for survival it was also what made us human. I don't think the connection between meat consumption and the development of the human brain is particularly controversial at this point. The idea that meat is bad for you or that we weren't designed to eat meat or animal products is patent nonsense. Human biology alone makes a mockery of that claim.

That said, I definitely understand your concerns about factory farming. I approach it more from an ethical standpoint (I typically purchase meat from (certified) humanely raised animals) but you are also right to be concerned about how animals are fed, what drugs they are given and what's in their food.

[Peter1469]

If people want to not eat meat, that is their choice.

[Mister D]

Any human is able to live on a vegetarian diet. It may be difficult, but it is completely possible for anyone to be a vegetarian. There are nearly half a billion vegetarians in the world.
The object is not to survive but to live well. You don't understand what he's saying.

[Mister D]

If people want to not eat meat, that is their choice.

Of course.

[Trumpster]

Not only was it advantageous for survival it was also what made us human. I don't think the connection between meat consumption and the development of the human brain is particularly controversial at this point. The idea that meat is bad for you or that we weren't designed to eat meat or animal products is patent nonsense. Human biology alone makes a mockery of that claim.

I'm aware of the theory of early human brain development but I don't think it's relevant to human aging in modern society. We were designed to eat almost anything when the goal is survival in the wild. But in today's world, science has discovered that some foods have both good and bad risk factors depending on the situation. In old age, meat may increase the risk of many degenerative diseases such as heart disease, stroke, cancer, digestive diseases and autoimmune diseases. So my thinking is: Why should I take the risk when I can get all the same nutrients from plant foods? (The one exception is B12 for which I take a supplement.)

[Trumpster]

A large subset of the population could not be healthy on a vegan diet. Or a vegetarian diet. Of course, some can.

People can eat whatever they want, but I'm curious to know why they wouldn't be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet?

[The Xl]

I tried being a vegetarian a few years ago, quickly lost muscle and athleticism, and generally felt like shit. Perhaps I didn't supplement well enough. In any case, ethical as it may be, I don't think it's optimal for human health, especially if you're active.

[Ethereal]

Something people tend to overlook in discussions about diet is the delivery system of the nutrients.

It's not enough to simply consume nutrients, they have to be consumed in a way that facilitates their effective digestion.

That's why it's better to eat an apple than it is to drink apple juice, generally speaking. The fiber helps with digestion and moderates the amount of sugars you consume.

The same thing applies to meat. The nutrients are delivered efficiently because the human digestive system evolved to obtain most of its proteins and fats from meat.

[Peter1469]

People can eat whatever they want, but I'm curious to know why they wouldn't be healthy on a vegan or vegetarian diet?

Some can. Other's can't.

The source of the meat is important. Much of the factory farmed stuff is likely where the negative findings about eating meat come from.

[Peter1469]

I tried being a vegetarian a few years ago, quickly lost muscle and athleticism, and generally felt like shit. Perhaps I didn't supplement well enough. In any case, ethical as it may be, I don't think it's optimal for human health, especially if you're active.

I had that experience as well.

[Trumpster]

I tried being a vegetarian a few years ago, quickly lost muscle and athleticism, and generally felt like $#@!. Perhaps I didn't supplement well enough. In any case, ethical as it may be, I don't think it's optimal for human health, especially if you're active.

I have found, from talking to others, that you really have to like healthy foods such as fresh fruit, a wide variety of fresh vegetables, legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds. It's likely that everyone has a different way of going about it, so it's somewhat of a mystery to me why it doesn't work for some people. Perhaps you took too many supplements. I keep supplements to a minimum: I take a small amount of liquid B12, D3, and Iodine. Everyone has different needs though. I take only what I need based on blood-work.

[Trumpster]

Docs say saturated fats do not clog arteries (http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/796452/Saturated-fat-Cardiologists-warnings-clogs-arteries-wrong-health-exercise)

The above study is what's known in science as "reductionism" because it only focuses on one thing: Cardiovascular Disease. (As if that's the only thing we have to worry about.)

http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/index.php/these-12-studies-show-saturated-fat-is-not-just-a-heart-hazard

12 studies show saturated fat is not just a heart hazard


Setting aside saturated fat - found primarily in meat and dairy products - can also decrease your risk for obesity, diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and early death, among other health issues.

[Mister D]

I'm aware of the theory of early human brain development but I don't think it's relevant to human aging in modern society. We were designed to eat almost anything when the goal is survival in the wild. But in today's world, science has discovered that some foods have both good and bad risk factors depending on the situation. In old age, meat may increase the risk of many degenerative diseases such as heart disease, stroke, cancer, digestive diseases and autoimmune diseases. So my thinking is: Why should I take the risk when I can get all the same nutrients from plant foods? (The one exception is B12 for which I take a supplement.)
The nutritional punch meat packs played a large role in human brain development and our digestive system shows it.

In any case, if anyone is concerned with the impact of a high meat diet in their later years I would suggest cutting down on meat consumption but, far more importantly, paying more attention to the kind of meat you're eating. No, a diet of cheeseburgers is probably not a good idea at any age and I doubt anyone is suggesting otherwise but I wouldn't worry too much about that 4 ounces of trout or chicken you have daily.

[Peter1469]

The above study is what's known in science as "reductionism" because it only focuses on one thing: Cardiovascular Disease. (As if that's the only thing we have to worry about.)

http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/index.php/these-12-studies-show-saturated-fat-is-not-just-a-heart-hazard

12 studies show saturated fat is not just a heart hazard
Factory farmed meat is high in Omega 6 transfatty acids and this result would be very much expected.

Grass fed beef and free range chickens have a normal ration of omega 6s and 3s. These results don't show up in this type of meat.

Omega 6s- if too high in your system will cause massive inflammation. That leads to other problems such as cancer and disease.

[Trumpster]

Factory farmed meat is high in Omega 6 transfatty acids and this result would be very much expected.

Grass fed beef and free range chickens have a normal ration of omega 6s and 3s. These results don't show up in this type of meat.

Omega 6s- if too high in your system will cause massive inflammation. That leads to other problems such as cancer and disease.


I was responding to the article you posted which stated the following: Saturated fat SHOCK: Cardiologists claim warnings it clogs arteries are 'plain WRONG'

There was nothing in that article about "factory farmed" versus "grass fed".

Therefore, my response was appropriate: 12 studies show saturated fat is not just a heart hazard. http://www.pcrm.org/nbBlog/index.php/these-12-studies-show-saturated-fat-is-not-just-a-heart-hazard


Setting aside saturated fat....can also decrease your risk for obesity, diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and early death, among other health issues.

[Peter1469]

Not all saturated fat is equal. That is where Akins went wrong.

[Trumpster]

Not all saturated fat is equal. That is where Akins went wrong.

The 3 doctors in your opening article went wrong too. And in more ways than one. Just because they got some things right doesn't make it okay. Atkins got some things right too, but in the aggregate it was not a healthy long-term lifestyle (i.e., diet strategy).

[Peter1469]

The 3 doctors in your opening article went wrong too. And in more ways than one. Just because they got some things right doesn't make it okay. Atkins got some things right too, but in the aggregate it was not a healthy long-term lifestyle (i.e., diet strategy).

Yes.

But people are different. Some need more protein. Some more fat. Some more carbs. Animal sources of food is critical for many people. That is not likely to change in the near term.

[Trumpster]

Yes.

But people are different. Some need more protein. Some more fat. Some more carbs. Animal sources of food is critical for many people. That is not likely to change in the near term.

Need more protein? Eat more legumes and intact grains.

Need more fat? Eat more nuts or avocados etc.

Need more carbs? Eat more whole grains.


Things are changing slowly, I know. Back around 1970, major supermarkets only carried about 2 or 3 brands of whole grain bread. Today, we have a lot more choices as the word gets out about the importance of whole grain.

I still don't understand why animal protein is so important to some people, other than the fact that they may find it difficult to break their habit.

[Peter1469]

Need more protein? Eat more legumes and intact grains.

Need more fat? Eat more nuts or avocados etc.

Need more carbs? Eat more whole grains.


Things are changing slowly, I know. Back around 1970, major supermarkets only carried about 2 or 3 brands of whole grain bread. Today, we have a lot more choices as the word gets out about the importance of whole grain.
I agree people can skip meat and be ok. But it is expensive with the supplements that are required to be at peak performance.

Just eat quality meat. It is so much easier.

[Mister D]

I don't begrudge vegetarians their lifestyle choices but their appears to be a firm conviction among many vegetarians that meat is bad for you. I'm sorry, but that's just nonsense. Yes, I suppose I could not eat meat and be OK but I could that with any food group but I wouldn't because it's a foolish decision.

[Peter1469]

Me neither. But I like meat.

A good new group are vegetarians who eat eggs. That solved their nutrition problem.

[Mister D]

Me neither. But I like meat.

A good new group are vegetarians who eat eggs. That solved their nutrition problem.
I suppose if you had to pick one variety of meat to consume that would be your best choice.

[Trumpster]

I agree people can skip meat and be ok. But it is expensive with the supplements that are required to be at peak performance.

Just eat quality meat. It is so much easier.


Quality is not always the issue: https://dianagoeshealthy.wordpess.com/2009/06/22/heme-iron-vs-non-heme-iron/


Heme iron vs non heme iron. Heme iron comes from animal products, whereas, non heme iron comes from plants......Excess iron is one of the culprits behind several degenerative diseases, including, but not limited to, arthritis, diabetes, cancer and heart disease.

And that's just one aspect of it.

[Mister D]

Excess iron in the blood is usually the result of a genetic disorder.