Are comics for kids?

[Hal Jordan]

This was actually inspired quite some time ago by William, but has been reinforced by others since.

Are comics for kids? I submit that this has never been true. The oldest regularly published comics were made for adults, and while storytelling has progressed since then, I think it is still obvious. I believe the trope of comics being for kids was started by the government when they decided they wanted to regulate it. The regulations have passed away some time ago, and comics have become more self-regulatory. The idea that comics arev for kids stems from the 1950s and 1960s and was false by the 1980s. In the 1980s we saw comics starting to disregard the Comics Code Authority and publish adult oriented comics without government consent. By 2000, the major comic companies started moving away from the CCA and started focusing more on adult storytelling that had far more depth than the comics of old. The change in focus was inevitable considering the shifts in comics over the years.

[Standing Wolf]

The first American comic books were simply reprints from the newspaper "funny papers", and as such were understandable and appropriate reading for all ages. Even with the advent of the costumed superhero in the late '30s, which drew the attention and readership of more adults, comics were pretty toothless in terms of violence, sexual content or anything that might disturb or confuse children. It really wasn't until the '50s, with E.C. titles like Tales from the Crypt, that the perception arose that comic books were (or should be) "kid's stuff" and needed to be regulated, if not censored...and, as you suggest, Hal, folks of all ages had been reading and enjoying comics from the beginning.

[IMPress Polly]

I wish I could thrown in a credible opinion here, but the truth is that I've only ever read a few comic books before and all those were Archie series and definitely qualified in the 'targeting ages 8-15' category: Sonic the Hedgehog (and related), NiGHTS Into Dreams (mini-series), Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and the Archie and related flagship series for a while. I abandoned all but my first series (Sonic) over the years, and kept going with that one more out of personal tradition than any serious motivation. But there came a point a little over two years ago where I felt like I had just long since outgrown the types of stories that they were telling and was having to invest way too much money collecting what were effectively double, triple, and quadruple copies of the same stories just to keep my collection technically complete, so I gave up Sonic at that point as well. That's the substance of what I've got to offer this conversation. :tongue: About the Marvel and DC and independent stuff and whatnot, I know nothing but what I see in theaters. I was just never into that stuff as a kid, and truthfully I struggle to relate to it on the big screen as well.

But with that limited experience with comic books qualification established, when it comes to almost anything being designated as "just for kids", I tend to balk. I mean they don't make hentai comics for kids! (Or at least I certainly hope not.) But I also think that lots of different mediums sort of evolve into the perception of maturity over time rather than right away. Take a medium I'm more familiar with, for example: video games. When gaming started out, it was considered to be family-oriented thing. The commercials would always show whole families playing together. But by the time you got to the 1990s, an ever-growing swath of games were being made for teenage audiences, and thus the demand went out for the establishment of ratings board and one came into being. Today, you see even the conservative console companies like Nintendo marketing primarily to people in their 20s and 30s (to judge by the demographics shown in their commercials). To a fair degree, in that sense, it kind of feels like the medium has grown up with me (although honestly it doesn't feel like it has kept pace with me overall in terms of maturity, hence my certain distance from the community itself). My instinct is to suspect hence that Standing Wolf's explanation of the history of comic books overall is correct, as it sounds like a similar trajectory to the one video games have undergone. (I didn't exactly keep track of a representative sample myself to confirm though, and I certainly don't date to the 1930s.)

[The Xl]

They don't have to be, especially not mature themed comics

[Standing Wolf]

I was nine years old in 1963, when Marvel was just cranking it up. I remember buying a copy of Avengers #1 and X-Men #1 off of one of those squeaky circular racks in the grocery store. (I still own them, and even though they're not in anything like mint condition, my comic store owner friend tells me they're worth $1300-1500 each.) I've tried re-reading those early issues in recent years, and they were most definitely written for nine-year-olds. :rollseyes:

On the other hand, it was only a few years later that I discovered Mr. Natural and The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers and all the other underground comics, which were most definitely not produced with children in mind.

I see comics on the comic store shelves today that would probably give me nightmares. It just occurred to me that undoubtedly the biggest factor in the maturing - in terms of content - of American comics was the advent of the actual comic book store. When I was a kid, you bought your comics at the grocery or the drugstore, 'cause those were the only places that sold them. (I guess in the big cities there were newsstands, but Plainfield, Indiana didn't have any of those.) Parents could complain about the comics their kids were bringing home from those stores, and the manager wouldn't order that type of comic anymore. Once comic book stores began springing up, all bets were pretty much off.

[Common]

I grew up reading comics, Superman, Bizarro Superman, Batman, and all the old ones. I dont remember them having anything that would be inappropriate but I haven read any for 55 yrs
Everyone read comic books when I was a kid

[Hal Jordan]

The first American comic books were simply reprints from the newspaper "funny papers", and as such were understandable and appropriate reading for all ages. Even with the advent of the costumed superhero in the late '30s, which drew the attention and readership of more adults, comics were pretty toothless in terms of violence, sexual content or anything that might disturb or confuse children. It really wasn't until the '50s, with E.C. titles like Tales from the Crypt, that the perception arose that comic books were (or should be) "kid's stuff" and needed to be regulated, if not censored...and, as you suggest, Hal, folks of all ages had been reading and enjoying comics from the beginning.

For the most part, the earlier comics were pretty toothless when it comes to those situations, but there were always exceptions. Also, entertainment in general was more toothless on those situations at the time. The 50s was when the darker side really started to hit its stride and the backlash came out. I used to have some of those old EC titles, like Weird Fantasy, as well as some that came later from Warren Publishing. Fun Fact: Mad Magazine is the last survivor of EC.

Sorry, kinda went on a tangent there. In 1954, Seduction of the Innocent was published. This book blamed comics for many things and was taken very seriously. At the time, people didn't realize that it was full of falsified evidence and outright lies. In the face of likely government regulation, publishers decided to self-regulate and created the Comics Code Authority. Distributors started refusing to sell comics without the CCA stamp. Some of the regulations were ridiculous and publishers eventually broke away from that, which I'll get into later.


I wish I could thrown in a credible opinion here, but the truth is that I've only ever read a few comic books before and all those were Archie series and definitely qualified in the 'targeting ages 8-15' category: Sonic the Hedgehog (and related), NiGHTS Into Dreams (mini-series), Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and the Archie and related flagship series for a while. I abandoned all but my first series (Sonic) over the years, and kept going with that one more out of personal tradition than any serious motivation. But there came a point a little over two years ago where I felt like I had just long since outgrown the types of stories that they were telling and was having to invest way too much money collecting what were effectively double, triple, and quadruple copies of the same stories just to keep my collection technically complete, so I gave up Sonic at that point as well. That's the substance of what I've got to offer this conversation. :tongue: About the Marvel and DC and independent stuff and whatnot, I know nothing but what I see in theaters. I was just never into that stuff as a kid, and truthfully I struggle to relate to it on the big screen as well.

That's fair. I'm not saying that there aren't comics for kids, just that comics aren't, and never have been solely for kids. It is an expensive hobby. For a while there I was spending about $100 a week on it. I stopped that a long time ago, though.


But with that limited experience with comic books qualification established, when it comes to almost anything being designated as "just for kids", I tend to balk. I mean they don't make hentai comics for kids! (Or at least I certainly hope not.) But I also think that lots of different mediums sort of evolve into the perception of maturity over time rather than right away. Take a medium I'm more familiar with, for example: video games. When gaming started out, it was considered to be family-oriented thing. The commercials would always show whole families playing together. But by the time you got to the 1990s, an ever-growing swath of games were being made for teenage audiences, and thus the demand went out for the establishment of ratings board and one came into being. Today, you see even the conservative console companies like Nintendo marketing primarily to people in their 20s and 30s (to judge by the demographics shown in their commercials). To a fair degree, in that sense, it kind of feels like the medium has grown up with me (although honestly it doesn't feel like it has kept pace with me overall in terms of maturity, hence my certain distance from the community itself). My instinct is to suspect hence that Standing Wolf's explanation of the history of comic books overall is correct, as it sounds like a similar trajectory to the one video games have undergone. (I didn't exactly keep track of a representative sample myself to confirm though, and I certainly don't date to the 1930s.)
Actually, the comparison to the video game industry is a very apt one. The 80s is when the comic industry really began breaking off the shackles of the CCA and building a lot more focus on comics aimed at adults, which is where the majority of the focus is now. The push exploded in the 90s. I think that, given the timing, the change in comics affected the change in gaming and vice versa.

I was nine years old in 1963, when Marvel was just cranking it up. I remember buying a copy of Avengers #1 and X-Men #1 off of one of those squeaky circular racks in the grocery store. (I still own them, and even though they're not in anything like mint condition, my comic store owner friend tells me they're worth $1300-1500 each.) I've tried re-reading those early issues in recent years, and they were most definitely written for nine-year-olds. :rollseyes:

To an extent, they were directed at a younger crowd, but even with those, there was a depth and commentary. X-Men was a parallel to the Civil Rights movement, for example. Stan Lee's writing was definitely geared towards the youth. I think, also, that the CCA affected that as well. While the earlier comics were mostly toothless, the CCA knocked out what there was. Batman could no longer kill left and right like he had in his early comics, etc.


On the other hand, it was only a few years later that I discovered Mr. Natural and The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers and all the other underground comics, which were most definitely not produced with children in mind.

I don't think I want to know.


I see comics on the comic store shelves today that would probably give me nightmares. It just occurred to me that undoubtedly the biggest factor in the maturing - in terms of content - of American comics was the advent of the actual comic book store. When I was a kid, you bought your comics at the grocery or the drugstore, 'cause those were the only places that sold them. (I guess in the big cities there were newsstands, but Plainfield, Indiana didn't have any of those.) Parents could complain about the comics their kids were bringing home from those stores, and the manager wouldn't order that type of comic anymore. Once comic book stores began springing up, all bets were pretty much off.
Agreed. The comic book stores are undoubtedly the biggest factor. Drugstores and grocery stores would not sell comics without the CCA stamp of approval. With the advent of the comic shop, there was now a place where those comics could be sold. The waters were tested with that, and more adult themed comics popped up. In the 90s, the second biggest factor happened. Some prominent writers and artists (and Rob Liefeld) broke from Marvel and formed Image Comics, which refused to abide by the CCA. Thanks to the comic shops, there was a place they could be found, and they became extremely popular. I even started to see a couple of titles in the grocery and drug stores before they quit selling comics altogether.

Comic shops made Image possible, and Image broke the CCA. Marvel broke from the CCA in 2001 and started its own rating system. In 2011, the last two publishers using it broke from it. Archie Comics quit the day after DC did. Now the CCA is dead and adult-focused comics are the majority, rather than the minority.

I grew up reading comics, Superman, Bizarro Superman, Batman, and all the old ones. I dont remember them having anything that would be inappropriate but I haven read any for 55 yrs
Everyone read comic books when I was a kid
In the early Batman comics, Batman would routinely kill his foes. Even under the CCA, there were comics that had adult themes. Snowbirds don't Fly from Green Lantern/Green Arrow is the first great example that I can think of (1971).

https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/679601.jpg


The second would be Demon in a Bottle from Iron Man (1979).

https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/1120469.jpghttp://kastorskorner.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Iron-Man-Tony-Stark-Captain-America-Steve-Rogers-Demon-in-a-Bottle-Civil-War-Avengers-Marvel-Cinematic-Universe-MCU-Disney.png

[Standing Wolf]

https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/679601.jpg



A couple of years ago, I consigned my copy of that issue to my local comic shop, along with the following issue. They each sold for $50-60.

Odd how even the mention of drug or alcohol abuse, even in the context of pointing out how bad they are, was a Code violation.

[decedent]

The Norse have Odin, the Greeks have Hercules, the Italians have Mars. If it weren't for comics, the US would have no mythology. Just like the ancient gods, superheroes have been used for parables about social issues. Superheroes are basically folk heroes.




https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/679601.jpg



Nixon asked Marvel to do a comic on the effects of drug use, which was glamorized in other forms of media (music and movies). They agreed, then the CCA told them it violated their rules. Marvel ignored them. That was the start of the end of the CCA. But I'll admit that, as a young kid, I couldn't relate to stories about alcoholism or drug use and thought they were boring.

Edit: what Standing Wolf said.

[Hal Jordan]

A couple of years ago, I consigned my copy of that issue to my local comic shop, along with the following issue. They each sold for $50-60.

Odd how even the mention of drug or alcohol abuse, even in the context of pointing out how bad they are, was a Code violation.
Yes, it is odd. Man, I wish I had comics worth $50-60

Coming to you from the depths of inner space

[decedent]

But with that limited experience with comic books qualification established, when it comes to almost anything being designated as "just for kids", I tend to balk.

Despite playing tons of sports, I'm a real nerd. I watch Rick and Morty, Bob's Burgers, Samurai Jack, and Archer. I don't think these are generally considered "kids shows" since some are on Adult Swim. I doubt many kids would enjoy Bob's Burgers or Archer.

But as for kids' shows go, I would necessarily walk away from Storm Hawks, Phineas and Ferb, or Fairly Odd Parents.

As for comics, the fellow in this video explains them well. This video is about the first Injustice season. It's the best series I've ever read. It portrays Superman as an authoritarian who cracks down on crime all over the world with a heavy hand. It works, and crime is reduced, but at the cost of liberty. Batman and a tiny band of heroes resist as best they can, but how can you fight the likes of the Justice League?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRSNg2Qk9U4

[Hal Jordan]

What I've read of Injustice has been great, and definitely not meant for kids. It also highlights the link between the comics world and the video game world.

[IMPress Polly]

Hal Jordan wrote:
Actually, the comparison to the video game industry is a very apt one. The 80s is when the comic industry really began breaking off the shackles of the CCA and building a lot more focus on comics aimed at adults, which is where the majority of the focus is now. The push exploded in the 90s. I think that, given the timing, the change in comics affected the change in gaming and vice versa.

I would say that the gaming analogy to the Comics Code Authority, the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB for short), still has a fair amount of power. The difference between the two, as I understand it, is that the CCA imposes outright bans on certain types of content? (I remember that, in the Sonic comics, they decided not to adapt the video game Shadow the Hedgehog in comic form because that one revolved around gun play and apparently the CCA wouldn't let them for that reason. Not that I minded because it was a poor game anyway and their adaptations were usually the worst stories. :tongue:) The ESRB doesn't actually do that. They're more like the Motion Picture Association of America, which stopped flat-out banning content back in the 1960s. But like how parents still pay attention to movie ratings, they still pay attention to game ratings as well. But as far as attempts to formally censor games (and there has been no shortage), those pretty well ended with a Supreme Court ruling in 2010 that defined video games as a constitutionally-protected artistic medium.

But yeah, it's possible that there was some influence from the world of comics, though I'm not sure how direct it was. I wouldn't characterize the comic-inspired games around back in the '90s as boundary-pushing. The ones that prompted the Senate investigation that led to the creation of the ESRB were like the original Mortal Kombat and Doom and Night Trap: material that, nearest I can tell, was not related to the comic books universe. In the 2000s, boundary-pushing indeed became sort of the rule in gaming in a way sounds similar to what you describe happening in comics in the '90s, with Grand Theft Auto III, GTA IV, and God of War emerging as the top sellers. In the current decade, that seems to have tapered off a bit, though the target market itself hasn't changed. I wouldn't characterize any of the games I've just listed as, you know, socially positive or anything. They pushed boundaries just for the sake of doing so. But games needed to establish the right to have mature content because there actually are a lot of socially positive games that take on serious topics.


decedent wrote:
Despite playing tons of sports, I'm a real nerd. I watch Rick and Morty, Bob's Burgers, Samurai Jack, and Archer. I don't think these are generally considered "kids shows" since some are on Adult Swim. I doubt many kids would enjoy Bob's Burgers or Archer.

I enjoy Bob's Burgers and am LOVING the new season of Samurai Jack! I wish there were more action cartoons for adults like Samurai Jack in particular because it gets old all of them being comedies. We seem to have this cultural bias against action cartoons for adults that I hope this new Samurai Jack season chips away at a bit. (I'm also a big fan of Attack on Titan, though it's worth adding that, believe it or not, in its native Japan that's not actually per se considered an adult show.)

[Hal Jordan]

I would say that the gaming analogy to the Comics Code Authority, the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB for short), still has a fair amount of power. The difference between the two, as I understand it, is that the CCA imposes outright bans on certain types of content? (I remember that, in the Sonic comics, they decided not to adapt the video game Shadow the Hedgehog in comic form because that one revolved around gun play and apparently the CCA wouldn't let them for that reason. Not that I minded because it was a poor game anyway and their adaptations were usually the worst stories. :tongue:) The ESRB doesn't actually do that. They're more like the Motion Picture Association of America, which stopped flat-out banning content back in the 1960s. But like how parents still pay attention to movie ratings, they still pay attention to game ratings as well. But as far as attempts to formally censor games (and there has been no shortage), those pretty well ended with a Supreme Court ruling in 2010 that defined video games as a constitutionally-protected artistic medium.

I wouldn't say that the ESRB is quite comparable to the CCA. The CCA was far more limiting. There was an example of a fight over an author's name (Marv Wolfman) almost being a cause of a comic losing the CA seal. I was not aware of the specific example you cite, but can understand it, due to the strictness of the CCA. They have absolutely no authority any longer, though.


But yeah, it's possible that there was some influence from the world of comics, though I'm not sure how direct it was. I wouldn't characterize the comic-inspired games around back in the '90s as boundary-pushing. The ones that prompted the Senate investigation that led to the creation of the ESRB were like the original Mortal Kombat and Doom and Night Trap: material that, nearest I can tell, was not related to the comic books universe. In the 2000s, boundary-pushing indeed became sort of the rule in gaming in a way sounds similar to what you describe happening in comics in the '90s, with Grand Theft Auto III, GTA IV, and God of War emerging as the top sellers. In the current decade, that seems to have tapered off a bit, though the target market itself hasn't changed. I wouldn't characterize any of the games I've just listed as, you know, socially positive or anything. They pushed boundaries just for the sake of doing so. But games needed to establish the right to have mature content because there actually are a lot of socially positive games that take on serious topics.

As for the directness of the influence, while comic book related games weren't a major director, there was a correlation between the followers of each. As such, I feel there was a correlation between the running of each. Gaming companies saw the effects of comic shops, and the game stores were born. Comics started the trend of darker stories and games adapted to that. Games such as Mortal Kombat were released, and comics adapted to that. While it may not always be direct, I think the industries affect each other.




I enjoy Bob's Burgers and am LOVING the new season of Samurai Jack! I wish there were more action cartoons for adults like Samurai Jack in particular because it gets old all of them being comedies. We seem to have this cultural bias against action cartoons for adults that I hope this new Samurai Jack season chips away at a bit. (I'm also a big fan of Attack on Titan, though it's worth adding that, believe it or not, in its native Japan that's not actually per se considered an adult show.)

I haven't seen the new season of Samurai Jack, however, I fully support more diversification in adult oriented cartoons.

[Standing Wolf]

Coming out Wednesday...the trade paperback of John (American Crime, 'Those Who Walk in Darkness', etc., etc.) Ridley's highly original series, 'The American Way'. Ridley deals with superheroes, the 1950s, race, government conspiracies, and pretty much everything else in this unforgettable story. Read this.

http://i.ebayimg.com/17/!BkjVPeg!Wk~$(KGrHqEH-EUEs7w8DW11BLYDLevtCg~~_35.JPG

[resister]

They don't have to be, especially not mature themed comics
That sounds kinda hot!

[The Xl]

That sounds kinda hot!

Hey now, don't be getting the wrong idea here.....lol

[exotix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXcJwS7S_o