The Promise And Peril Of School Vouchers

[Captain Obvious]

Why would anyone want alternatives to a failing, progressively ran educational establishment?

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/05/12/520111511/the-promise-and-peril-of-school-vouchers


Wendy Robinson wants to make one thing very clear.
As the long-serving superintendent of Fort Wayne public schools, Indiana's largest district, she is not afraid of competition from private schools.

"We've been talking choice in this community and in this school system for almost 40 years," Robinson says. Her downtown office sits in the shadow of the city's grand, Civil War-era Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception. In Fort Wayne, a parking lot is the only thing that separates the beating heart of Catholic life from the brains of the city's public schools.

In fact, steeples dominate the skyline of the so-called City of Churches (http://www.visitfortwayne.com/meeting/market-segments/faith-based/). Fort Wayne has long been a vibrant religious hub, home to more than 350 churches, many of which also run their own schools.


While the city's public and private schools managed, for decades, to co-exist amicably, that changed in 2011, Robinson says. That's when state lawmakers began the Indiana Choice Scholarship Program, a plan to allow low-income students to use vouchers, paid for with public school dollars, to attend private, generally religious schools.
Six years later, Indiana's statewide voucher program is now the largest of its kind (https://www.edchoice.org/school-choice/school-choice-in-america/) in the country and, with President Trump and Education Secretary Betsy DeVos openly encouraging states to embrace private school choice, the story of the Choice Scholarship — how it came to be, how it works and whom it serves — has become a national story of freedom, faith, poverty and politics.

[Common]

Charter school sin NJ failed, christie even gave them funding and they are closing one by one. Understaffing because they dont want to pay and other issues. Vouchers are not a utopia they are said to be. I wish they would work and end this liberal indoctrination of our kids

[Boris The Animal]

Charters are doing just fine here in Buffalo.

[zelmo1234]

The Charter Schools in MI are backed by Universities with the exception of some of the first ones that opened in the Detroit Area. they are a disaster but so are the public schools

Vouchers give all parents choices in their children's education, but Democrats are Mostly against them? You have to ask yourself why would a Democrat be against a child from a poor family having the same opportunity to get a Top notch education, like a child from a rich family?? After all They, the Democrats, spend Millions of dollars each year to tell us that they are the party of equality? So why don't they support something that would allow children a better education?

The reason is, they have spent Decades taking over the public educations system and now have it right where they want it Turning out Millions and Millions of uneducated but totally indoctrinated kids that don't have the ability to think for themselves...

They are not going to give that up, just so the children of poor people can live successful lives.

[Crepitus]

As long as there is accountability and certain standards are met.......

[DGUtley]

As long as there is accountability and certain standards are met.......

I started out 'for' Charter Schools and vouchers. I've leaned 'against' b/c there's been no accountability in Ohio. I'm all for choice but there has to be accountability. I've represented some charter schools and (frankly) they were dumps. I wouldn't let my dog spend time in there.

[Newpublius]

I started out 'for' Charter Schools and vouchers. I've leaned 'against' b/c there's been no accountability in Ohio. I'm all for choice but there has to be accountability. I've represented some charter schools and (frankly) they were dumps. I wouldn't let my dog spend time in there.

Then don't go there. See, that is what choice is about. In NJ, I have a voucher, they don't bother to issue it of course, its good only at the one local public school.

[Crepitus]

I started out 'for' Charter Schools and vouchers. I've leaned 'against' b/c there's been no accountability in Ohio. I'm all for choice but there has to be accountability. I've represented some charter schools and (frankly) they were dumps. I wouldn't let my dog spend time in there.

Sadly our new secretary of education worked pretty hard at shielding charter schools from accountability in Michigan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.1d2d67af0371

[DGUtley]

Then don't go there. See, that is what choice is about. . . . . .

Actually, it's not. The State has an interest in making sure that minimum standards of facilities are met.

[zelmo1234]

As long as there is accountability and certain standards are met.......

I absolutely agree with this.

They should not be able to produce the same product that the public schools are turning out today. Those same standards of education should apply to all.

But parental choice should be taken into account. for example the parents should be able to choose to have their child sent to a Catholic School if they wish.

[zelmo1234]

Sadly our new secretary of education worked pretty hard at shielding charter schools from accountability in Michigan.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.1d2d67af0371

Actually she pushed really hard to get the University oversight of the Charter School System in MI

She pushed really hard to make sure that it was reformed so that they could not use just anyone to teach and that they were turning out children better prepared for life.

Yes we still have schools that exist that were open before those standards but Mrs. Devos is very devoted to Children, they even build a Hospital for them.

[zelmo1234]

Actually, it's not. The State has an interest in making sure that minimum standards of facilities are met.

The Facilities should meet safety Standards and the Children should preform as well or better than those in the public system, but there should be some latitude for parental choice.

[Crepitus]

Actually she pushed really hard to get the University oversight of the Charter School System in MI

She pushed really hard to make sure that it was reformed so that they could not use just anyone to teach and that they were turning out children better prepared for life.

Yes we still have schools that exist that were open before those standards but Mrs. Devos is very devoted to Children, they even build a Hospital for them.

Link?

[zelmo1234]

Link?

I will try and get this for you... Since the Hearings all you can find is about here hearing..

I think I will be able to find her speaking before the State House here in MI. It is really a look at what she believes.

And I think that we all can agree that the public system in our inner cities is broken though some schools in upper income areas are fine. that is not acceptable in my opinion. The children of our poorest areas deserve the best education, not the worst.

I have to go out to the sites now, so it may be tonight or tomorrow. but I will try.

[Cannons Front]

Many of the problems faced in the schools vouchers will not fix, the biggest problem with public school is the epidemic of ineffective parents in this country. Parents are failing their children, they fail to teach respect, self discipline. They fail to teach kids to reach beyond, challenge themselves, want to be a better person and push yourself to achieve it. There are hundreds of excuses, but the bottom line is if parenting does not improve schools won't either and there is no parenting voucher.

[del]

Link?


This summer, the DeVos family contributed $1.45 million over two months (http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/stephen-henderson/2016/09/03/charter-devos-money-michigan/89774760/) — an astounding average of $25,000 a day — to Michigan GOP lawmakers and the state party after the Republican-led Legislature derailed a bipartisan provision that would have provided more charter school oversight in Detroit.

GLEP also pushed hard — and successfully — to lift the cap on charter schools a few years ago, even though Michigan already had among the highest number of charters in the nation despite statistics suggesting charters weren’t substantively outperforming traditional public schools.
And in 2000, the DeVos extended family spent $5.6 million (http://mcfn.org/node/14) on an unsuccessful campaign to amend Michigan’s constitution to allow school vouchers — the only choice tool not currently in play in Michigan.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.e096ac4d50e9


she's not like the others; she's here to help.

[Crepitus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.e096ac4d50e9


she's not like the others; she's here to help.

Lol

[Newpublius]

Actually, it's not. The State has an interest in making sure that minimum standards of facilities are met.

Look at that case in Akron/Copley. Woman there sent her kid in Copley because it was better than Akron based ln her father's residence because Akron's schools, according to the state itself were failing kids.

Schools should be accountable.....to parents and that's exactly what vouchers do. Do parents not have an interest in the schools they send their children to?

That works.


The state has an interest, trust me as a parent I care more about my kids than any state bureacrat.

[Abby08]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/12/08/a-sobering-look-at-what-betsy-devos-did-to-education-in-michigan-and-what-she-might-do-as-secretary-of-education/?utm_term=.e096ac4d50e9


she's not like the others; she's here to help.

"Don't worry, we're from the government, we're here to help".......LOL!!

There isn't a bigger oxymoron, than that!

[Cthulhu]

As long as there is accountability and certain standards are met.......
Those same standards are failing across the board in public schools.

Perhaps a change of venue is in order.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

[Crepitus]

Those same standards are failing across the board in public schools.

Perhaps a change of venue is in order.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

Sure, look at how well for profit prisons have worked out.

[Mechanic]

Here in California education in the public schools is a fine education. Then again we don't subscribe to the Bush NCLB crap so the lowest common denominator is not the standard for the masses.

[Dr. Who]

This is not difficult. There should be a curriculum set by the state that all schools need to meet. They can exceed it but they can't fall below the standard. If they do, their charter should be revoked.

[William]

The school I go to is what is called a Public School in the UK and a Private School in Australia. The fees, including text books and 'extras' (like music - which I'm doing) are roughly $50,000 a year (which is less than the Public School I was at in the UK). One of the good things about my school here (and in the UK) is that, although it is nominally a C of E school, there is no religious content whatsoever. Those boys that want to can go to Chapel, but there is no religious instruction or any other type of indoctrination whatsoever. Like my school in the UK, the boys are of all religions, including Catholic and Muslim, so it works better that way.

Australia also has a large number of private Catholic schools, where religious indoctrination takes place, and where the standard of education is very variable. The main reason for parents to send their children there seems to be religious, and I think religion has no place in education.

I don't really know what Charter Schools in the USA are, but no private schools should receive government funding (like the Catholic schools do in Australia). Any money that goes to a private (or Charter) school comes out of the money available for public education. If parents want their children to receive religious indoctrination - let them pay for it.

Also, I think it is unfair for people like myself to get a privileged education in a posh school, when lots of boys can't cos their parents can't afford that sort of money each year. There should be one standard of education for everyone - it should be a high standard, and it should be free. Otherwise we just contribute to the division that is already in society. The 'old school tie' already causes enough unfairness in our society. And all education up to and including university, should be free for those who can meet the entrance standards.

OK, carry on - I've chucked my little wobbly! :grin:

[Standing Wolf]

NPR has been broadcasting a series of pieces on "school choice" in different states that has been very informative and interesting. They have been interviewing both parents who've had a good experience with their state's attempts at providing it, and those who've had a less than positive experience. One of the negatives that I hear a lot, from that series of programs and elsewhere, is that private and most charter schools can pick and choose which students to admit - whereas public schools, of course, cannot. Kids with special needs, whom the public schools by law must accommodate and deal with, are often hard pressed to find any non-public school within driving distance that will take them. Another complaint is that the dollar amount of a voucher may not even come close to paying for a school's tuition - meaning that a wealthy family ends up getting a discount on their kid's tuition by using a voucher, but a poor family may not be able to use the voucher at all because it only covers a small fraction of the tuition cost.

[Newpublius]

I don't really know what Charter Schools in the USA are, but no private schools should receive government funding (like the Catholic schools do in Australia). Any money that goes to a private (or Charter) school comes out of the money available for public education. If parents want their children to receive religious indoctrination - let them pay for it.


Well that is rather the point. If you buy a Ford with your money, GM doesn't get the money. Now imagine if we had a deal where your tax dollars supported GM and every five years you get a brand new Chevy Cruze for $0.

How many Ford Focus vehicles would be sold for $20k? Not very many of course even though, for the sake of argument, we will assume the Focus is marginally better.

Indeed, as I write this I get a voucher. That voucher is only good at the one local public school. So of course they don't bother to issue it.

Of course I theoretically could send my children to Catholic shool which is where I want to send my children, because its flst out better

Indeed, if given a choice with the voucher I'd go to the Catholic (in the US this is currently unconstitutional because of the Establishment Clause). For sure, the public school won't get the money. That's a good thing. That's the difference between funding things people actually want versus things that are imposed on people. That's what economies are supposed to do, they are supposed to produce goods and services people actually want.

Now, pre-k, we see exactly what happens absent government involvment, we see a plethora of day care and educational options available to parents. They are all accountable to the parents.

Furthermore, NJ has 'Abbot Districts' where, for generations now schools have been failing their charges. How many decades before you give vouchers? Never.......apparently......

It also holds back the redevelopment of cities. My wife works in Newark, I would live there but for the lack of vouchers. I am not sending my kids to an Abbott district school.

Vouchers rest on the proposition that parents know what's best for their own children. That they know better than the local Board of Education. There is no legitimate reason parental choice shouldn't prevail absent a bad parenting/abusove situation.

[Newpublius]

NPR has been broadcasting a series of pieces on "school choice" in different states that has been very informative and interesting. They have been interviewing both parents who've had a good experience with their state's attempts at providing it, and those who've had a less than positive experience. One of the negatives that I hear a lot, from that series of programs and elsewhere, is that private and most charter schools can pick and choose which students to admit - whereas public schools, of course, cannot. Kids with special needs, whom the public schools by law must accommodate and deal with, are often hard pressed to find any non-public school within driving distance that will take them. Another complaint is that the dollar amount of a voucher may not even come close to paying for a school's tuition - meaning that a wealthy family ends up getting a discount on their kid's tuition by using a voucher, but a poor family may not be able to use the voucher at all because it only covers a small fraction of the tuition cost.

Catholic Students:
1st Child $4,890
2nd Child $3,750
3rd Child (and each additional child) $3,025
Non-Catholic Students: $6,035 per child

The Establishment Clause issie exists of course, I will acknowledge that, but the Catholic Shools around me in NJ are spending less than half per capita for Catholic kids than public schools.

Meanwhile my town spends about $17k per student. Slightly below state average of $19k and actually poorer schools actually get MORE because there was a case where tbey questioned funding.

My kids are elementary so that is lower cost than high school, the Catholic HS wants $12,200.00

[William]

Well that is rather the point. If you buy a Ford with your money, GM doesn't get the money. Now imagine if we had a deal where your tax dollars supported GM and every five years you get a brand new Chevy Cruze for $0.

How many Ford Focus vehicles would be sold for $20k? Not very many of course even though, for the sake of argument, we will assume the Focus is marginally better.

I don't understand the analogy. It might work if getting a motor car was as important as getting an education, and if you got one for free out of your tax dollars - but buying a motor car is a private choice, and there is no reason why a competitor for either Ford or GM should be supported by your purchase.

My point was the government allocates so many tax dollars in the budget to public education, and to give some of that to private enterprise is to reduce the amount available to public education. To give some of that for religious indoctrination is even worse.


Indeed, as I write this I get a voucher. That voucher is only good at the one local public school. So of course they don't bother to issue it.

Of course I theoretically could send my children to Catholic shool which is where I want to send my children, because its flst out better

Indeed, if given a choice with the voucher I'd go to the Catholic (in the US this is currently unconstitutional because of the Establishment Clause). For sure, the public school won't get the money. That's a good thing. That's the difference between funding things people actually want versus things that are imposed on people. That's what economies are supposed to do, they are supposed to produce goods and services people actually want.

Now, pre-k, we see exactly what happens absent government involvment, we see a plethora of day care and educational options available to parents. They are all accountable to the parents.

Furthermore, NJ has 'Abbot Districts' where, for generations now schools have been failing their charges. How many decades before you give vouchers? Never.......apparently......

It also holds back the redevelopment of cities. My wife works in Newark, I would live there but for the lack of vouchers. I am not sending my kids to an Abbott district school.

Vouchers rest on the proposition that parents know what's best for their own children. That they know better than the local Board of Education. There is no legitimate reason parental choice shouldn't prevail absent a bad parenting/abusove situation.

I'm sorry, I'm not an American, and I have no idea what things like 'pre-k' and 'Abbott districts' are, so I can only discuss this in a general sense, and as a concept. And what parents want for their children is not always what is best for their children - of course they think it is best for their children, cos in most cases, they were brought up that way. :smiley:

[Newpublius]

"My point was the government allocates so many tax dollars in the budget to public education, and to give some of that to private enterprise is to reduce the amount available to public education. To give some of that for religious indoctrination is even worse."

You are missing the point then, the money allocated for education is still spent.....on education. Its just spent on education services PARENTS actually prefer.

You could just as well say that money compelled by force, taxation, to be spent on public schools is diverted away from preferred private schools because government officials presume to know better than parents.

Pre-K is pre-kindergarten, essentially daycare i to preschool and most schools don't have pre-k. Of course in my town and the adjoining communities there are no fewer than 15 options offering daycare and pre-k services all spending far less than the per capita elementary school expenditure.

Abbott districts are a result of Abbott v Burke a decision challenging how schools were funded. Essentially wealthy towns have high property valies and property taxes able to support the school, poor towns are worse off. So, the state stepped in and more than equalized the fubdijg nearly 2 decades ago. Schools that still failed got taken over by the state directly and they are kbown as 'Abbot' schools. And they suck and nobody in their right mind would live there with kids.

[William]

"My point was the government allocates so many tax dollars in the budget to public education, and to give some of that to private enterprise is to reduce the amount available to public education. To give some of that for religious indoctrination is even worse."

You are missing the point then, the money allocated for education is still spent.....on education. Its just spent on education services PARENTS actually prefer.

With respect, I don't think I am. Money set aside for public education should be used for public education available to all citizens, and not go to private schools which can pick and choose who they admit. Also the standard of education may not be the same - a fundamentalist religious school may teach creationism instead of evolution. The answer to public services don't always lie with private, for-profit, enterprise.

Standing Wolf addressed the problems when he wrote "Kids with special needs, whom the public schools by law must accommodate and deal with, are often hard pressed to find any non-public school within driving distance that will take them."

Like I said before, I know very little about your system, but private schools and Catholic schools where I am are expensive, and are quite picky about what kids they will admit. Also, very few have the staff and facilities to deal with special needs children - they get around this by simply not admitting any. That even applies to non-special-needs kids - I was only admitted to my school cos I went to the oldest and most respected Public School in the UK.

[Newpublius]

"Standing Wolf addressed the problems when he wrote "Kids with special needs, whom the public schools by law must accommodate and deal with, are often hard pressed to find any non-public school within driving distance that will take them."

This bears little resemblance to reality. When a child with special needs requires accommodation, that's when vouchers DO take effect if the public school cannot accommodate. For instance, very few visually impaired students exist, most public schools will of course try to accommodate but most never even dealt with it. Very few blind children fortunately. But statewide there are still more than enough and the school district will pay for the private school that specializes in visually impaired children. Public schools themselves often, because of this, wind up having certain 'special need specialties' and draw students from the region and they get the 'voucher' from the sending district.

For instance my district is known for speech therapy and draws students from neighboring districts for that, those districts pay our district for that. Odds the special need any given child experiences is best dealt with in local district is rather low actually. Some people will quite literally move to that particular district, but for purposes of payment they don't have to.

[William]

"Standing Wolf addressed the problems when he wrote "Kids with special needs, whom the public schools by law must accommodate and deal with, are often hard pressed to find any non-public school within driving distance that will take them."

This bears little resemblance to reality. When a child with special needs requires accommodation, that's when vouchers DO take effect if the public school cannot accommodate. For instance, very few visually impaired students exist, most public schools will of course try to accommodate but most never even dealt with it. Very few blind children fortunately. But statewide there are still more than enough and the school district will pay for the private school that specializes in visually impaired children. Public schools themselves often, because of this, wind up having certain 'special need specialties' and draw students from the region and they get the 'voucher' from the sending district.

For instance my district is known for speech therapy and draws students from neighboring districts for that, those districts pay our district for that. Odds the special need any given child experiences is best dealt with in local district is rather low actually. Some people will quite literally move to that particular district, but for purposes of payment they don't have to.

So, just so I am clear on this - what Standing Wolf wrote is not true? :huh:

[Newpublius]

Indeed, without vouchers, all school districts would need to be abke to accommodate all special needs no matter what and that isn't practical. Because of vouchers, in this case the fact school will pay to accommodate variois special needs, there are a plethora of specialized schools accommodating children with various nuanced needs.

So, for instance, if you have a child with a visual impairment, you could try the local school, but many parents prefer a school that specializes in children with visual impairment. As a parent, if you prefer to send your blind child to that environment, an environment where the other students have the same disability, you get the voucher.

[Bethere]

So, just so I am clear on this - what Standing Wolf wrote is not true? :huh:

Never doubt yourself. You have all of these things right. You may view yourself as apolitical, but in reality because of your upbringing and the environment in which you were raised you are well to the left of most of this forum's membership.

[William]

Indeed, without vouchers, all school districts would need to be abke to accommodate all special needs no matter what and that isn't practical. Because of vouchers, in this case the fact school will pay to accommodate variois special needs, there are a plethora of specialized schools accommodating children with various nuanced needs.

Are those schools private, for-profit organisations, or state financed and run?

[Ethereal]

Capitalist fat cats and stodgy Republicans rally in favor of school choice...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaVXrNZCE90

[Newpublius]

Never doubt yourself. You have all of these things right. You may view yourself as apolitical, but in reality because of your upbringing and the environment in which you were raised you are well to the left of most of this forum's membership.

SW says if vouchers prevailed, special needs students wouldn't be accommodated and I am saying that special needs students actually get vouchers and as a result there are specialty schools accommodate that special need.

Why would William 'doubt himself?'

[Newpublius]

Are those schools private, for-profit organisations, or state financed and run?

Both.....the private schools are natutally mostly nonprofits

[Bethere]

Are those schools private, for-profit organisations, or state financed and run?

In America most if not all programs for special needs children are run by the state using a combination of state and federal funds out of sites located/based almost exclusively in county seats.

This is due to several factors, the most important being economy of scale and a desire not to offer duplicate services.

What this does though, is takes these highly expensive services and charges them against the dominant urban districts that exist in the county seats. It allows conservative rural districts to use skewed statistics to pretend that they are more thrifty in comparison to their ungrateful money hungry inefficient urban neighbors.

The same can be said about all private schools, too. They don't offer the most expensive of the mandated programs. Instead they bus their children with special needs into the county seat.

That isn't just true in the magnificent state of ohio, but rather it is true in all fifty states.



SW says if vouchers prevailed, special needs students wouldn't be accommodated and I am saying that special needs students actually get vouchers and as a result there are specialty schools accommodate that special need.

Why would William 'doubt himself?'
See above. Btw. William should never doubt himself.

[Ethereal]

I went to public school in Illinois and it was absolutely atrocious. I remember one of my teachers making over $100,000 a year to teach a health class that entailed him reading verbatim out of a textbook. And after he retired, he received a pension worth 80% of his final salary, somewhere around $80,000 a year for life. I saw my dad and others like him pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in property taxes to finance parasites like this guy. And that's what this all boils down to at the end of the day. Teachers unions and administrators trying to extract as much money from taxpayers as possible.

[William]

Why would William 'doubt himself?'

There's loads of reasons why I might doubt myself. The first being that many people, like yourself, question what I think - and that's a good thing, cos it makes me question it myself, and think harder about it. Another is that I have not had as much life experience as most people here, and I accept that I may easily be mistaken about things I don't really know much about (like your education system). :smiley:

[Newpublius]

In America most if not all programs for special needs children are run by the state using a combination of state and federal funds out of sites located/based almost exclusively in county seats.

This is due to several factors, the most important being economy of scale and a desire not to offer duplicate services.

What this does though, is takes these highly expensive services and charges them against the dominant urban districts that exist in the county seats. It allows conservative rural districts to use skewed statistics to pretend that they are more thrifty in comparison to their ungrateful money hungry inefficient urban neighbors.

The same can be said about all private schools, too. They don't offer the most expensive of the mandated programs. Instead they bus their children with special needs into the county seat.

That isn't just true in the magnificent state of ohio, but rather it is true in all fifty states.



See above. Btw. William should never doubt himself.

Of course even if your fact pattern is true, and its not, busing kids to the county is a voucher. The poibt is that the local district pay the students tuition at a school of choice. In Morris County, for deafness, blindness, autism.....7 private schools dealing with autism spectrum disorder and one public school. My district is not one of them. My district WILL pay ANY of them. The closest public one is Rockaway, that is 1/2 hour, closest private much closer.

If my district had to deal with it, maybe they could, but problem is then that kid would be the lone autistic child in the school.

[William]

Never doubt yourself. You have all of these things right. You may view yourself as apolitical, but in reality because of your upbringing and the environment in which you were raised you are well to the left of most of this forum's membership.

Thanks for that compliment, but I don't see my views as being political, or on the left or the right.

Basically it is a question of human values, and what sort of society we want to live in.

I want to live in a society that gives everyone an equal opportunity to make the most of their life. One where people don't have to worry about basic human needs, like food, shelter, education and health care. And one where compassion for the have-nots is higher than concern for the welfare of the corporate sector.

Maybe it's an American thing, but I don't see lots of difference between conservatives and socialists in their basic values. I have a very conservative mum and a quite socialist inclined dad, but they both seem to share the same basic values. They both are happy to contribute to charities and to pay higher taxes so that people don't go hungry, without shelter, or without education and health care. They both believe that this makes for a happier, fairer, and less violent society.

I wonder if people here left their ideology at home - would they understand each other better on this board?

[Newpublius]

I went to public school in Illinois and it was absolutely atrocious. I remember one of my teachers making over $100,000 a year to teach a health class that entailed him reading verbatim out of a textbook. And after he retired, he received a pension worth 80% of his final salary, somewhere around $80,000 a year for life. I saw my dad and others like him pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in property taxes to finance parasites like this guy. And that's what this all boils down to at the end of the day. Teachers unions and administrators trying to extract as much money from taxpayers as possible.

Exactly $17-18k per student we have more retiree teachers than actual teachers and the comparable cost at private Catholic Schools is 20% less at high school level.

[Bethere]

Both.....the private schools are natutally mostly nonprofits

He doesn't understand charter schools. He needs to be aware that they are for profit experiments to show that they are better managers than public school administrators.

Of course, they don't offer the most expensive mandated programs either so they get to use skewed statistics to make their cases too.

And many of their supporters make fun of the mentally retarded, see the thousands of tPF posts that make fun of "retards" and those who arrive at schools in "short buses."

[Bethere]

Exactly $17-18k per student we have more retiree teachers than actual teachers and the comparable cost at private Catholic Schools is 20% less at high school level.

Of course many of their teachers are nuns who took vows of poverty, and those church schools don't offer special needs services. Instead, they put them on a bus and send them to the county seat to be dealt with by urban school districts.

[Bethere]

Thanks for that compliment, but I don't see my views as being political, or on the left or the right.

Basically it is a question of human values, and what sort of society we want to live in.

I want to live in a society that gives everyone an equal opportunity to make the most of their life. One where people don't have to worry about basic human needs, like food, shelter, education and health care. And one where compassion for the have-nots is higher than concern for the welfare of the corporate sector.

Maybe it's an American thing, but I don't see lots of difference between conservatives and socialists in their basic values. I have a very conservative mum and a quite socialist inclined dad, but they both seem to share the same basic values. They both are happy to contribute to charities and to pay higher taxes so that people don't go hungry, without shelter, or without education and health care. They both believe that this makes for a happier, fairer, and less violent society.

I wonder if people here left their ideology at home - would they understand each other better on this board?

I am pragmatic. I don't view myself as having an ideology either. But if you continue to post stuff like your third paragraph your conservative friends at tPF will label you as a socialist.

For the record, I view paragraph 3 as spectacular.

[Newpublius]

Of course many of their teachers are nuns who took vows of poverty, and those church schools don't offer special needs services. Instead, they put them on a bus and send them to the county seat to be dealt with by urban school districts.

That is false. The private school that specializes in autism is a nonreligious attahment onto a Catholic school. Obviously to have a Catholic school that specializes in Catholic autistic children is too small of a niche, so they do have yo be nonreligious. So, they separate it and operate it that way.

Even so, your statement doesn't make much sense. If I had a special needs child, the Catholic school wouldn't 'bus him to the county' -- I would and as noted the reason I wouldn't have to bus them to the county is because private schools, responding to the vouchers, offer a plethora of services to special needs children.

[William]

I am pragmatic. I don't view myself as having an ideology either. But if you continue to post stuff like your third paragraph your conservative friends at tPF will label you as a socialist.

For the record, I view paragraph 3 as spectacular.

Lol, I post stuff like that, cos it's what I think. If people want to label me - I can't stop them, but I don't like all this lefty/righty stuff - it puts people into little boxes where they all are only one thing. Life isn't that black and white, and I hope my conservative friends here (who I consider intelligent people) understand that. Some conservatives, just like some socialists, are so ideologically driven they cannot see any other side of the question, but I don't think my conservative (or liberal) friends here are like that. :smiley:

[Newpublius]

He doesn't understand charter schools. He needs to be aware that they are for profit experiments to show that they are better managers than public school administrators.

Of course, they don't offer the most expensive mandated programs either so they get to use skewed statistics to make their cases too.

And many of their supporters make fun of the mentally retarded, see the thousands of tPF posts that make fun of "retards" and those who arrive at schools in "short buses."

Wow, sounds really terrible, sounds like rational parents will just not do that. You live in a world where parents don't know what's best for their own children. Want to know who doesn't what's best for my kids? YOU. Specifically you, you have no insight whatsoever into the welfare of my children.

[Bethere]

That is false. The private school that specializes in autism is a nonreligious attahment onto a Catholic school. Obviously to have a Catholic school that specializes in Catholic autistic children is too small of a niche, so they do have yo be nonreligious. So, they separate it and operate it that way.

Even so, your statement doesn't make much sense. If I had a special needs child, the Catholic school wouldn't 'bus him to the county' -- I would and as noted the reason I wouldn't have to bus them to the county is because private schools, responding to the vouchers, offer a plethora of services to special needs children.

You said it was false, then you admit it is true.

For us to continue I must insist that you pick one. It's unfair for you to straddle the line.

Also note that I said "the most expensive services."

I ran an urban school levy in 1988 in a district where they had not passed a permanent levy since 1962. I aggressively made my case with the financial backing of the chamber of Commerce, both political parties, the league of women's voters, the farm Bureau, the NAACP, and the Catholic Church. I worked hard to form that coalition.

In the end we won by 25 points and they've only lost once since.

It turns out the winning narrative was also true, and when American Christians put their minds together and give ideology a boot good things happen.

[Bethere]

Lol, I post stuff like that, cos it's what I think. If people want to label me - I can't stop them, but I don't like all this lefty/righty stuff - it puts people into little boxes where they all are only one thing. Life isn't that black and white, and I hope my conservative friends here (who I consider intelligent people) understand that. Some conservatives, just like some socialists, are so ideologically driven they cannot see any other side of the question, but I don't think my conservative (or liberal) friends here are like that. :smiley:

I can see the other side of the equation, and obviously so can you. Three of my closest friends on this forum are Republicans. We've known each other for years, and we are still shocked at how much we have in common and on how much we agree.

[Bethere]

Wow, sounds really terrible, sounds like rational parents will just not do that. You live in a world where parents don't know what's best for their own children. Want to know who doesn't what's best for my kids? YOU. Specifically you, you have no insight whatsoever into the welfare of my children.

Don't get me started on home schooling. If you are educated by your parents then you can be no better than they. It would have worked for me as my dad was the news editor of my region's foremost newspaper and my mother was a teacher with a graduate degree.

It would work out less well for the son of, say, a beautician and a car mechanic.

Having said that, my parents sent me to public schools. I somehow managed to become a national merit scholar anyway.
And I went back as an adult and used my skills to make sure that those schools were properly funded.

What's up with that?

[Newpublius]

You said it was false, then you admit it is true.

For us to continue I must insist that you pick one. It's unfair for you to straddle the line.

Also note that I said "the most expensive services."

I ran an urban school levy in 1988 in a district where they had not passed a permanent levy since 1962. I aggressively made my case with the financial backing of the chamber of Commerce, both political parties, the league of women's voters, the farm Bureau, the NAACP, and the Catholic Church. I worked hard to form that coalition.

In the end we won by 25 points and they've only lost once since.

It turns out the winning narrative was also true, and when American Christians put their minds together and give ideology a boot good things happen.

Its false. The Catholic school operates the special needs as a non-Catholic school so that they can get the vouchers. I'm just curious, what about that was unclear?

The school specializing in autism is on the church property, instead of calling St. Holyname, they call it the Academy and they are open to all faiths because if the school were religious they couldn't get vouchers and there aren't enough Catholic autistic students to justify a facially Catholic autistic program.

Basically the kids in the autistic program don't go to church. I went there as a kid for CCD.....same school no less, just after hours.

[Newpublius]

Don't get me started on home schooling. If you are educated by your parents then you can be no better than they. It would have worked for me as my dad was the news editor of my region's foremost newspaper and my mother was a teacher with a graduate degree.

It would work out less well for the son of, say, a beautician and a car mechanic.

Having said that, my parents sent me to public schools. I somehow managed to become a national merit scholar anyway.
And I went back as an adult and used my skills to make sure that those schools were properly funded.

What's up with that?

We're not discussing home schooling.

[Bethere]

Its false. The Catholic school operates the special needs as a non-Catholic school so that they can get the vouchers. I'm just curious, what about that was unclear?

The school specializing in autism is on the church property, instead of calling St. Holyname, they call it the Academy and they are open to all faiths because if the school were religious they couldn't get vouchers and there aren't enough Catholic autistic students to justify a facially Catholic autistic program.

Basically the kids in the autistic program don't go to church. I went there as a kid for CCD.....same school no less, just after hours.

Again:

'Also note that I said "the most expensive services."'

I never once cited autism.

[Ethereal]

We're not discussing home schooling.
Bethere has a tendency to go far afield in search of distractions and deflections, especially when he's up against his intellectual betters.

[Bethere]

Bethere has a tendency to go far afield in search of distractions and deflections, especially when he's up against his intellectual betters.

Nice personal attack. You aren't a constructive poster.

[Cthulhu]

Sure, look at how well for profit prisons have worked out.
Touche good sir. I tend to frown on those as well.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

[Dr. Who]

Indeed, without vouchers, all school districts would need to be abke to accommodate all special needs no matter what and that isn't practical. Because of vouchers, in this case the fact school will pay to accommodate variois special needs, there are a plethora of specialized schools accommodating children with various nuanced needs.

So, for instance, if you have a child with a visual impairment, you could try the local school, but many parents prefer a school that specializes in children with visual impairment. As a parent, if you prefer to send your blind child to that environment, an environment where the other students have the same disability, you get the voucher.

I suspect that the rules for eligibility to attend one school or another have become overly complicated. Where special needs children are concerned, there is a spectrum. Blind, deaf or other catastrophically disabled children whose needs could not possibly be served in the average public school should without question attend specialized schools. No voucher should be necessary. If the public system is failing to meet needs, taxpayers need to demand that it fulfil its mandate. Standards need to be met or all of the educators and leadership fired for not meeting the requirements of the job. Vouchers simply give the public system a free pass to fail, because those with money and influence will take those vouchers and send their children elsewhere.

[Casper]

I absolutely agree with this.

They should not be able to produce the same product that the public schools are turning out today. Those same standards of education should apply to all.

But parental choice should be taken into account. for example the parents should be able to choose to have their child sent to a Catholic School if they wish.
No one is stopping them, they just have to pay for it, I went to one for 2 years. Yes, you pay school taxes, but so do singles and people without children, so you are not so special when others pay for that education without using the service. Problem is not vouchers, but the public schools, fix them first, then you can send your kids, with voucher, to any school you want and you pay the difference (there always is). The alternative is to abandon the public schools and leave Millions of children with a lesser education, which we as a Nation end up paying for. Do the first fix first, then you, and everyone else, can make real choice.

[Boris The Animal]

No one is stopping them, they just have to pay for it, I went to one for 2 years. Yes, you pay school taxes, but so do singles and people without children, so you are not so special when others pay for that education without using the service. Problem is not vouchers, but the public schools, fix them first, then you can send your kids, with voucher, to any school you want and you pay the difference (there always is). The alternative is to abandon the public schools and leave Millions of children with a lesser education, which we as a Nation end up paying for. Do the first fix first, then you, and everyone else, can make real choice.First thing to fix is get rid of the damned Dept. of Education and the teachers unions.

[Casper]

First thing to fix is get rid of the damned Dept. of Education and the teachers unions.
Yeah I have heard that before, I respectfully disagree, there are reasons for both and both serve a purpose under the system we have, it that Reform is needed to correct the problem, just dump or banning this does not address the issue.

A harder method to work on the issue is to identify ISD's that are performing well, then take those ideas to other schools that would work with within that idea. Yes not every method works everywhere, that is why one has to look at several approaches or a melding of several methods to find things that work best in each situation. Will it cure all the ills, doubtful, but it is a start. I would also suggest banning Zero tolerance rules, they only mean Zero leeway and no consideration of the situation, a lazy mans way of dealing with complex issues, that is until it affects you. Besides schools are supposed to be institutions of learning, teaching children that rule of law overrides justice is a Bad Lesson to teach.

[Boris The Animal]

Yeah I have heard that before, I respectfully disagree, there are reasons for both and both serve a purpose under the system we have, it that Reform is needed to correct the problem, just dump or banning this does not address the issue.Actually it does as they are at the root of the problem. By taking away full control of schools from localities, you lose accountability, and that also pertains to teachers and the dumb idea of tenure. And that's another advantage Charters have, they can get rid of bad teachers without union interference.


A harder method to work on the issue is to identify ISD's that are performing well, then take those ideas to other schools that would work with within that idea. Yes not every method works everywhere, that is why one has to look at several approaches or a melding of several methods to find things that work best in each situation. Will it cure all the ills, doubtful, but it is a start. I would also suggest banning Zero tolerance rules, they only mean Zero leeway and no consideration of the situation, a lazy mans way of dealing with complex issues, that is until it affects you. Besides schools are supposed to be institutions of learning, teaching children that rule of law overrides justice is a Bad Lesson to teach.Umm no. Public schooling is nothing more than Leftist "I hate America" indoctrination anymore.

[Casper]

Actually it does as they are at the root of the problem. By taking away full control of schools from localities, you lose accountability, and that also pertains to teachers and the dumb idea of tenure. And that's another advantage Charters have, they can get rid of bad teachers without union interference.

Umm no. Public schooling is nothing more than Leftist "I hate America" indoctrination anymore.
As I said, Reforms are needed.

Oh good Grief..............whatever.

[Dr. Who]

Actually it does as they are at the root of the problem. By taking away full control of schools from localities, you lose accountability, and that also pertains to teachers and the dumb idea of tenure. And that's another advantage Charters have, they can get rid of bad teachers without union interference.

Umm no. Public schooling is nothing more than Leftist "I hate America" indoctrination anymore.

That unfortunate reactionary refrain is not particularly helpful. Most of America is somewhere in the middle, not on the outer political fringes. Yes, the squeaky wheel gets all the oil in most cases, but in your day to day interactions you must see that what you are saying is generally untrue. There is good reason for curriculum to be set from on high - people move for financial reasons all the time. You don't want your ten-year-old to have to repeat two grades to catch up because you moved to a different state or city for a new job. You also don't want your kids to not to have the basic academic abilities to pass the SATs in order to go to college if they so choose. That requires a basic national educational standard. It can either be set by the Federal Government or agreed to by all states, but you cannot reduce it to the whims of the local level where you will find some communities that don't believe in education beyond the eighth grade or value religious education above everything else. You cannot short-change the opportunities of kids because they come from communities with a very narrow focus or no focus at all.