PDA

View Full Version : Do You Approve of Taking Down Confederate Statues, Monuments, Etc.?



Ethereal
05-26-2017, 03:18 PM
Simple question.

I say no, because while we may find certain elements of American history distasteful or offensive, it is still AMERICAN history and therefore valuable in its own right. And if we start taking down Confederate statues, monuments, etc. because SOME Americans find it offensive or distasteful, it won't be long before this standard is applied to EVERY aspect of American history, from the founding fathers and their association with slavery, to more recent leaders like FDR who implemented an overtly racist crackdown on tens of thousands of innocent Americans. And I say this as someone who considers FDR one of the most offensive and worst presidents in US history. Yet he is still important in a historical sense, which means he should be remembered and actively contemplated by every American. Naturally, that would include tolerating statues, monuments, street names, etc. dedicated to FDR.

So what say you?

MisterVeritis
05-26-2017, 03:26 PM
It depends. Sometimes monuments outlive their usefulness. Sometimes context can be added in a museum setting. I do not agree with my Taliban friends on the Left that history we disagree with should be expunged. One minor correction, I don't have any Taliban friends. They are all on the left.

del
05-26-2017, 03:28 PM
statues aren't history and taking them down isn't erasing history.

if it was, no one would remember stalin.

Green Arrow
05-26-2017, 03:34 PM
I had to think on it, but I ultimately decided on no. It's pointless to me. I don't hold much value in Jefferson Davis but his monument on Monuments Ave. in Richmond, VA doesn't offend me. I don't see how society is bettered by removing it or any other monument to historical figures and events.

Chris
05-26-2017, 04:00 PM
The Confederate statues, no. But the one monument in NO dedicated to events that happened after the Civil War, with words added what in the 1950s, I forget, that I don't care about.

Mister D
05-26-2017, 04:11 PM
History is always more than mere facticity. The facts themselves have no meaning. History is the process by which historical facts are given meaning in the present. The idea that history is simply "the facts" or "what really happened" is a Western conceit and a relic of 19th Century Positivism. History is the process by which we select facts, connect them together, interpret them and ultimately bring them into some kind of relationship with the present. That's why it's wrong to say that removing statues of Stalin, for example, is not erasing history. The history of Stalin does not consist of the fact that Stalin existed. History is how Stalin is remembered in the present. The same is true of Confederate monuments. This is ultimately about how we understand ourselves. Do the people of the south wish to bring themselves into a different relationship with the Confederacy? Their desire is what I support.

MisterVeritis
05-26-2017, 04:13 PM
I think we should abolish the Democratic party as it represents a long history of slavery, racism, and oppression.

Ethereal
05-26-2017, 04:37 PM
History is always more than mere facticity. The facts themselves have no meaning. History is the process by which historical facts are given meaning in the present. The idea that history is simply "the facts" or "what really happened" is a Western conceit and a relic of 19th Century Positivism. History is the process by which we select facts, connect them together, interpret them and ultimately bring them into some kind of relationship with the present. That's why it's wrong to say that removing statues of Stalin, for example, is not erasing history. The history of Stalin does not consist of the fact that Stalin existed. History is how Stalin is remembered in the present. The same is true of Confederate monuments. This is ultimately about how we understand ourselves. Do the people of the south wish to bring themselves into a different relationship with the Confederacy? Their desire is what I support.
I would also say that history, in order to have meaning, has to be organic on some level. Humans are not purely intellectual beings, and statues and the like are the physical embodiment of history. The reason some people want them taken down is precisely because it causes them to THINK about something that makes them uncomfortable, which only proves how valuable and important statues and monuments can be in inspiring contemplation of history.

Mister D
05-26-2017, 04:43 PM
I would also say that history, in order to have meaning, has to be organic on some level. Humans are not purely intellectual beings, and statues and the like are the physical embodiment of history. The reason some people want them taken down is precisely because it causes them to THINK about something that makes them uncomfortable, which only proves how valuable and important statues and monuments can be in inspiring contemplation of history.

Yes, I would agree. It should be a local discussion. Taking a firm stand against Confederate monuments is one of those meaningless gestures white northerners are so good at but what hip progressives in Portland or NYC think about it is irrelevant. The peoples of the southern states (regardless of race of course) ought to be having this discussion alone.

Private Pickle
05-26-2017, 04:45 PM
statues aren't history and taking them down isn't erasing history.

if it was, no one would remember stalin.


Albania:

A large statue of Stalin, along with one of Lenin, can be found behind the Art Museum in Tirana.

Czech:

In Olomouc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc).

Germany:

A large statue of Stalin raising his right hand was in Riesa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riesa).

Georgia:

Small bust in front of the Batumi Stalin Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batumi_Stalin_Museum).

A silver statue of Stalin still exists in Shovi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shovi).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-2)

Lithuania:

In Grutas Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutas_Park).

Mongolia:

statue of Stalin stands at Isimuss Club in Ulaanbaatar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaanbaatar).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-3)

Netherlands:

A statue of Stalin is displayed in water in Sonsbeek Park, Arnhem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-6)

Russia:


Many statues can be found at Fallen Monument Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Monument_Park), Moscow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow).
Bust at his tomb in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremlin_Wall_Necropolis#Individual_tombs.2C_1948.E 2.80.931985), Moscow.
Bust in the Museum of the Great Patriotic War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_the_Great_Patriotic_War,_Moscow), Moscow.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-9)
Statue of Stalin along with Franklin Roosevelt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Roosevelt) and Winston Churchill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill) at the All-Russia Exhibition Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Russia_Exhibition_Center), Moscow.
A bust stands at the Memorial of Glory in Vladikavkaz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladikavkaz).
A bust stands at School No. 2 in Ardon, North Ossetia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardon,_North_Ossetia%E2%80%93Alania).[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-10)
There is bust of Stalin in the Communist Party's regional headquarters in Bryansk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryansk).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-11)
A bust of Stalin is in Kizel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizel).
A statue in Nogir (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nogir&action=edit&redlink=1) (ru (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%80)), North Ossetia–Alania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ossetia%E2%80%93Alania).
A statue of Stalin is in the yard of School No.2, Ardon, North Ossetia–Alania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardon,_Republic_of_North_Ossetia%E2%80%93Alania).
A bust of Stalin in the village of Chokh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokh), Dagestan.
A bust of Stalin at a square in Derbent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent), Dagestan.

Tajikistan:

A Stalin statue stands at a nursery school (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursery_school) in Asht (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asht).[

United States:

A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D-Day_Memorial) in Bedford, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford,_Virginia).[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin#cite_note-14)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statues_of_Stalin

del
05-26-2017, 04:49 PM
Yes, I would agree. It should be a local discussion. Taking a firm stand against Confederate monuments is one of those meaningless gestures white northerners are so good at but what hip progressives in Portland or NYC think about it is irrelevant. The peoples of the southern states (regardless of race of course) ought to be having this discussion alone.

i would think very few members of the new orleans city council are white northerners or hip progressives in portland or nyc, but i guess i could be mistaken.

The New Orleans City Council voted 6 to 1 to remove four Confederate monuments after a heated monthslong debate, declaring the Civil War-era statues and an obelisk to be “public nuisances.”Mayor Mitch Landrieu called for the monuments’ removal this summer.
“We, the people of New Orleans, have the power and we have the right to correct these historical wrongs,” Mr. Landrieu said before the council vote. He suggested the monuments be placed in a museum or Civil War park.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/us/new-orleans-city-counil-confederate-monuments-vote.html

Mister D
05-26-2017, 04:59 PM
i would think very few members of the new orleans city council are white northerners or hip progressives in portland or nyc, but i guess i could be mistaken.


https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/us/new-orleans-city-counil-confederate-monuments-vote.html
In cases where the southern public decides to remove the monuments I support it. It's ultimately their historical memory that's in question. Outrage in Boston in Ohio? Meaningless.

Peter1469
05-26-2017, 05:02 PM
I voted no. I grew up in the deep deep south (almost in the Gulf), but my family didn't get here until around 1892 (a problem between nobles and the Wilhelm).

But had I lived in that era as a Southerner I would have worked for the North. Probably as spy since I would have been in the swamps near New Orleans.

Still, the entire movement to remove Confederate monuments is anti-intellectual. If I were a member of the hard left I would misuse the term fascist here.

The Statists are on a roll. Beware.

Common
05-26-2017, 05:09 PM
I put other and I know im going to sound wishy washy here because im torn between two responses.

I can understand when people take offense to confederate statues, yes they are a part of history but they have been used as racist symbols and they do represent a bad period for blacks.

On the other side, there are many people that look at the confederate flag as their heritage and not as symbol of racism and do not use as a symbol of racism. In our history there was a confederate flag and a Union flag that were united.

I place confederate statues in both points of view also. I dont know there could be a compromise on this one, theres alot of people that have skin in this issue from both sides.

Personally as a yankee I have no skin in this issue