trump under investigation for obstruction of justice

[del]

happy birthday, donnie



The special counsel overseeing the investigation into Russia's role in the 2016 election is interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination of whether President Donald Trump (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/donald-trump-PEBSL000163-topic.html) attempted to obstruct justice, officials said.
The move by Special Counsel Robert Mueller (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/crime-law-justice/robert-mueller-PEPLT0008908-topic.html) to investigate Trump's own conduct marks a major turning point in the nearly year-old FBI (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/crime-law-justice/fbi-ORGOV000008-topic.html) investigation, which until recently focused on Russian meddling during the presidential campaign and on whether there was any coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. Investigators have also been looking for any evidence of possible financial crimes among Trump associates, officials said.
Trump had received private assurances from former FBI Director James Comey (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/james-comey-PEGPF00193-topic.html) starting in January that he was not personally under investigation. Officials say that changed shortly after Comey's firing.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-obstruction-of-justice-investigation-20170614-story.html

[Hoosier8]

Cause the Russian Collusion was a big nothingburger so next!

[Crepitus]

happy birthday, donnie



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-obstruction-of-justice-investigation-20170614-story.html
We, well at least those of us who aren't in denial over the whole thing, knew it was coming.

[exotix]

I think that's it ... that's all she wrote.

[Mister D]

Cause the Russian Collusion was a big nothingburger so next!
lol Yeah, pretty much. It can be amusing to watch these people become exactly what they hated only a year ago.

[Mister D]

We, well at least those of us who aren't in denial over the whole thing, knew it was coming.
It was coming like Hillary Clinton's inauguration. lol

[Bo-4]

D'OOOH - there goes the talking point! :D

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.70fbac9c3822

[exotix]

*update*

Apparently the investigation of Trump for Obstruction of Justice began the day after Comey was fired.

[Peter1469]

Another fail.

There are some smart Dems warning the freaks that they are going to kill the Dems in future elections..., heed those warnings or not.

[exotix]

Another fail.

There are some smart Dems warning the freaks that they are going to kill the Dems in future elections..., heed those warnings or not.Heeding what you say is always plausible ... http://res.cloudinary.com/luvckye9s/image/upload/v1478265286/_0_drivedevil_gl7fz5.gif

[del]

Heeding what you say is always plausible ... http://res.cloudinary.com/luvckye9s/image/upload/v1478265286/_0_drivedevil_gl7fz5.gif

true

i need to send hillary another care package at allenwood.

[exotix]

Just In

National Intelligence Director Dan Coats and NSA Director Adm. Mike Rogers will have to testify before Mueller about conversations they had with Trump that they refused to answer at the Congressional Hearing.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ1hlSoUIc

[Captain Obvious]

ohhhh noooooooes....

[exotix]

Just In

'The President brought this on Himself'

~ Daily Beast upon learning that Trump tried to scare Mueller from his investigation when Trump announced he was thinking of firing Mueller



Even Trump’s Aides Blame Him for Obstruction Probe: ‘President Did This to Himself’

http://www.thedailybeast.com/even-trumps-aides-blame-him-for-obstruction-probe-president-did-this-to-himself


Trump reportedly floated the possibility of firing Mueller as a way to prod him toward exonerating the president and other Trump associates party to the investigation. The New York Times reported on Tuesday that aides dissuaded him from doing so (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/us/politics/robert-mueller-special-counsel-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fmaggie-haberman&action=click&contentCollection=undefined&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection).

[Crepitus]

This administration is such a train wreck I'm almost starting to feel sorry for him.


Not quite though.

[decedent]

Cause the Russian Collusion was a big nothingburger so next!

That's a larger, lengthier investigation.

Trump admitted to obstruction, so that will likely take Trump down first.

[Crepitus]

Like I've been saying, patience my trumpkin friends, it is coming. These things take time.

[decedent]

May 9 - Fired Comey

May 10 - Confessed to Russian officials that he fired Comey to take pressure off him.

May 11 - Confessed that he fired Comey because of the Russia investigation.


Wouldn't it be nice if the rest of us could end any investigation of ourselves?

[Bethere]

happy birthday, donnie



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-obstruction-of-justice-investigation-20170614-story.html

Lock hIs felonious ass up!

[Bethere]

May 9 - Fired Comey

May 10 - Confessed to Russian officials that he fired Comey to take pressure off him.

May 11 - Confessed that he fired Comey because of the Russia investigation.


Wouldn't it be nice if the rest of us could end any investigation of ourselves?

What a simple case to present!

[stjames1_53]

I think that's it ... that's all she wrote.

you?????????? think????????????
now that I've had my laugh for the day.................

[Peter1469]

Can the special prosecutor go beyond his mandate?

[Ransom]

We, well at least those of us who aren't in denial over the whole thing, knew it was coming.
But none of you can tell us what the 'whole thing' is. You've no evidence, you've accusation and political insanity.

[Hoosier8]

Can the special prosecutor go beyond his mandate?

Yes he can because his mandate was very broad. For instance he can look into the FBI leaks.

[hanger4]

Gotta love it, obstruction of justice investigation of a supposed crime that didn't happen.

Also pretty much put those civil suits to rest.

[Hoosier8]

But none of you can tell us what the 'whole thing' is. You've no evidence, you've accusation and political insanity.

Their "whole thing" tree is a pretty sick puppy. To be honest, the only real legal risk anyone faces is illegal leaking of information which with the current Washington Post article shows it's still going on.

[Ransom]

Their "whole thing" tree is a pretty sick puppy. To be honest, the only real legal risk anyone faces is illegal leaking of information which with the current Washington Post article shows it's still going on.

I agree. An obvious witch hunt. Political hysterics. It's been happening since Nov 9th and is exampled by rhetoric and behavior you've seen on our forum. We've seen folk become unglued, try to play victim, some got angry and depressed, others.....insane. It's entertainment!

[Crepitus]

But none of you can tell us what the 'whole thing' is. You've no evidence, you've accusation and political insanity.

Sure I can but I'm not gonna bother. You wouldn't listen anyway.

[Tahuyaman]

Can the special prosecutor go beyond his mandate?
I belueve he can take it in any direction he wants. His mandate is what he perceives it to be at any moment in time.

[Tahuyaman]

Sure I can but I'm not gonna bother. You wouldn't listen anyway.

The ruling class is getting desperate.

[Bo-4]

Their "whole thing" tree is a pretty sick puppy. To be honest, the only real legal risk anyone faces is illegal leaking of information which with the current Washington Post article shows it's still going on.

You've received your talking points .. EXCELLENT. Forget about the fact that Trump admitted why he fired Comey ..

Point to LEAKS and HILLARY!!

Good boy - Jiffy Gump (Sessions) has a gold star for you!

:laughing7:

[Bo-4]

Another fail.

There are some smart Dems warning the freaks that they are going to kill the Dems in future elections..., heed those warnings or not.

Trump has already succeeded in offing your party - Death by 1000 Tweets! :D

[Crepitus]

You've received your talking points .. EXCELLENT. Forget about the fact that Trump admitted why he fired Comey ..

Point to LEAKS and HILLARY!!

Good boy - Jiffy Gump (Sessions) has a gold star for you!

:laughing7:

Pretty much dead on target there.....

[Crepitus]

Can the special prosecutor go beyond his mandate?

It's within his mandate. Here's the text:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

[Ransom]

This is going to be another swing and miss. And all of ewe know it.

[Bo-4]

Just In

'The President brought this on Himself'

~ Daily Beast upon learning that Trump tried to scare Mueller from his investigation when Trump announced he was thinking of firing Mueller



Even Trump’s Aides Blame Him for Obstruction Probe: ‘President Did This to Himself’

http://www.thedailybeast.com/even-trumps-aides-blame-him-for-obstruction-probe-president-did-this-to-himself


Trump reportedly floated the possibility of firing Mueller as a way to prod him toward exonerating the president and other Trump associates party to the investigation. The New York Times reported on Tuesday that aides dissuaded him from doing so (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/us/politics/robert-mueller-special-counsel-trump.html?rref=collection%2Fbyline%2Fmaggie-haberman&action=click&contentCollection=undefined&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection).

He should do it - then Rosenstein will either have to recuse himself since he's a likely witness or Trump fires him, leaving 3rd in command to make that decision.

SHE refuses .. Trump fires her and finds another toady to fire Mueller.

We have Watergate Part Deux! :evil:

[Bo-4]

Lock hIs felonious ass up!

You sir may be the greatest tPF poster in tPF history.

It has been a blessing and an honor to post with you! :grin:

[Bo-4]

Gotta love it, obstruction of justice investigation of a supposed crime that didn't happen.

Also pretty much put those civil suits to rest.

THERE you are - we've been waiting! :laugh:

[Ransom]

You sir may be the greatest tPF poster in tPF history.

It has been a blessing and an honor to post with you! :grin:

:gayfight:

[Bo-4]

:kissass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojRNViPlF5g

[Hoosier8]

Lock hIs felonious ass up!

Won't happen and I bet you don't know why.

[Peter1469]

Trump has already succeeded in offing your party - Death by 1000 Tweets! :D

My party is growing. Slowly, but growing.

Screw the Dems, and the GOP.

[ripmeister]

Can the special prosecutor go beyond his mandate?
This has always been the problem with special prosecutors with those who oppose them. Whitewater eventually led to a blow job by a young white house intern. I've seen several pundits comment on Mueller and that they felt he would keep things pretty narrow but you never know when one thing will open another can or worms. Its the nature of the beast.

[ripmeister]

Gotta love it, obstruction of justice investigation of a supposed crime that didn't happen.

Also pretty much put those civil suits to rest.

I'm curious. If a possible crime or misdeed was performed how exactly do you come to a determination unless you do an investigation. You seem to be arguing for a catch 22.

[ripmeister]

Won't happen and I bet you don't know why.
I doubt it too as proving felonious behavior is a pretty high bar. I do think there is a pretty good chance he could be ousted though and much of it is his own making.

[Bo-4]

My party is growing. Slowly, but growing.

Screw the Dems, and the GOP.

Green? Libertarian?? What Pete???

[Bo-4]

I'm curious. If a possible crime or misdeed was performed how exactly do you come to a determination unless you do an investigation. You seem to be arguing for a catch 22.

No need for investigation because hanger4 already has all the answers .. trust him.

;-)

[Mister D]

I doubt it too as proving felonious behavior is a pretty high bar. I do think there is a pretty good chance he could be ousted though and much of it is his own making.
Apparently, proving anything has been pretty high bar for you people. lol

[Adelaide]

Isn't this all based off the same Washington Post article? Also, as it was presented last night (as breaking news), it was "possible", not a completely confirmed investigation.

At any rate, I doubt much will come from this.

[hanger4]

Isn't this all based off the same Washington Post article? Also, as it was presented last night (as breaking news), it was "possible", not a completely confirmed investigation.

At any rate, I doubt much will come from this.

Quite true. Unless some sort of evidence is being held back all we know is "I hope" and in no way can that be construed as obstruction of justice. As far as the firing of Comey, considering Comey stated Trump isn't being investigated pretty much blows the firing out-da-water.

[ripmeister]

Apparently, proving anything has been pretty high bar for you people. lol
Who are "you people"? The others?

[Mister D]

Who are "you people"? The others?
You kooks who think Trump was "colluding" with the Russians.

[ripmeister]

You kooks who think Trump was "colluding" with the Russians.
Did I ever say he was colluding with the Russians? I don't think so.

[Mister D]

Did I ever say he was colluding with the Russians? I don't think so.

You do seem intent on grasping at straws lately. Give it up. It's making you all look silly.

[Bo-4]

Quite true. Unless some sort of evidence is being held back all we know is "I hope" and in no way can that be construed as obstruction of justice. As far as the firing of Comey, considering Comey stated Trump isn't being investigated pretty much blows the firing out-da-water.

You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired.

The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/comey-misstated-key-clinton-email-evidence-at-hearing-say-people-close-to-investigation/2017/05/09/074c1c7e-34bd-11e7-b373-418f6849a004_story.html?utm_term=.244356026cdf), according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate that his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.5e64e8509b1c

[ripmeister]

You do seem intent on grasping at straws lately. Give it up. It's making you all look silly.
This seems to be your standard retort. Nonspecific dismissives. What straws have I grasped?

[Peter1469]

I'm curious. If a possible crime or misdeed was performed how exactly do you come to a determination unless you do an investigation. You seem to be arguing for a catch 22.
In America you need probable cause that a crime was committed and the accused committed it. To investigate to find that information violates the Constitution.

[Peter1469]

Green? Libertarian?? What Pete???


I vote libertarian or constitution party. Somethings, especially local it is labeled independent.

[Peter1469]

You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired.

The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/comey-misstated-key-clinton-email-evidence-at-hearing-say-people-close-to-investigation/2017/05/09/074c1c7e-34bd-11e7-b373-418f6849a004_story.html?utm_term=.244356026cdf), according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate that his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.5e64e8509b1c
Their star witness testified in a manner that contradicts that charge.

Oh well. Forward.

[Ransom]

This seems to be your standard retort. Nonspecific dismissives. What straws have I grasped?

Straws grasped = number of posts you've written here.

Any more silly questions?

[texan]

happy birthday, donnie



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-obstruction-of-justice-investigation-20170614-story.html

Interesting points to note:

-More Un-named sources.
-The word "examination" not investigation is what it says.
-The people like del and the haters are slowly dragging the "examination" word (which I think examining is fine and logical) into the "year long investigation" words because they need something.

Be nice if people were just honest.

[ripmeister]

In America you need probable cause that a crime was committed and the accused committed it. To investigate to find that information violates the Constitution.

But probable cause and demonstrative proof pre-investigation are very different things.

[ripmeister]

Straws grasped = number of posts you've written here.

Any more silly questions?

:rollseyes:

[Tahuyaman]

What's really funny about this is the fact that last week, the Comey testimony was all about Trump being investigated by the special counsel for obstruction of justice. Now they are acting as though this is a new charge and new investigation.


They are so desperate that they repeat the same accusations, but represent them as something just uncovered.


When this once again amounts to nothing, the liberals will be so angry they will commit even more acts of violence. The more they come up empty, the angrier they get.

[hanger4]

You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired.

The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/comey-misstated-key-clinton-email-evidence-at-hearing-say-people-close-to-investigation/2017/05/09/074c1c7e-34bd-11e7-b373-418f6849a004_story.html?utm_term=.244356026cdf), according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate that his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/special-counsel-is-investigating-trump-for-possible-obstruction-of-justice/2017/06/14/9ce02506-5131-11e7-b064-828ba60fbb98_story.html?utm_term=.5e64e8509b1c

What I posted and you quoted applies perfectly. I was already aware of the timing of the supposed obstruction of justice examination. Assuming Mueller's minions leaked the "examination" information then I suspect there's no there there to Trump collusion so a little fishing expedition ensues.

[decedent]

Lock hIs felonious ass up!

Remember Trump's "Lock her up!" chant? He's now claiming to be a victim of a witch hunt. Karma.

[Tahuyaman]

Remember Trump's "Lock her up!" chant? He's now claiming to be a victim of a witch hunt. Karma.

You've stil failed to find any crime Trump has committed.

[Peter1469]

But probable cause and demonstrative proof pre-investigation are very different things.

A very thin line. I imagine if law enforcement pre-investigation examined your life they will find something to get you with.

[Tahuyaman]

You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired.

The obstruction-of-justice investigation of the president began days after Comey was fired on May 9 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/comey-misstated-key-clinton-email-evidence-at-hearing-say-people-close-to-investigation/2017/05/09/074c1c7e-34bd-11e7-b373-418f6849a004_story.html?utm_term=.244356026cdf), according to people familiar with the matter. Mueller’s office has taken up that work, and the preliminary interviews scheduled with intelligence officials indicate that his team is actively pursuing potential witnesses inside and outside the government.



The investigation started the day he was elected POTUS.

[Bo-4]

What I posted and you quoted applies perfectly. I was already aware of the timing of the supposed obstruction of justice examination. Assuming Mueller's minions leaked the "examination" information then I suspect there's no there there to Trump collusion so a little fishing expedition ensues.

Nah, Trump's obnoxious attorney was wrong. HIGHLY unlikely this information came from the FBI as he so ridiculously assumed.

Hang tight .. gonna be a rough ride! :evil:

[hanger4]

Remember Trump's "Lock her up!" chant? He's now claiming to be a victim of a witch hunt. Karma.

Until evidence is produced to justify the investigation/examination it is just a witch hunt.

[Bo-4]

No ^ the investigation into Russia started before the election.

[Tahuyaman]

What a bunch of rubes.......

[ripmeister]

A very thin line. I imagine if law enforcement pre-investigation examined your life they will find something to get you with.
This investigation wasn't plucked out of thin air, and no, I'm boring and squeaky clean.:grin:

[decedent]

What a simple case to present!

Obstruction of justice is a "high crime" but so is treason and bribery.

I wonder if the Senate will put country before party.

[hanger4]

Nah, Trump's obnoxious attorney was wrong. HIGHLY unlikely this information came from the FBI as he so ridiculously assumed.

Hang tight .. gonna be a rough ride! :evil:

Comey's (top dog) already admitted leaking, so saying carte blanche the FBI didn't do it is silly.

[decedent]

Until evidence is produced to justify the investigation/examination it is just a witch hunt.

There's plenty of evidence, even from Trump's own mouth. He's sealed his fate.

[Tahuyaman]

Until evidence is produced to justify the investigation/examination it is just a witch hunt.


Their Russian collusion thing fell apart, so they are just shifting the narrative. When this one falls apart, they will shift the focus to Trump's business operations. When that leads nowhere they will go after his pre-political private life.

[Tahuyaman]

There's plenty of evidence, even from Trump's own mouth. He's sealed his fate.


Such as? Be both specific and accurate.

[exotix]

You kooks who think Trump was "colluding" with the Russians.This looks like Trump colluding with Russia to me ...



http://res.cloudinary.com/luvckye9s/image/upload/v1484598785/1_q8b9lb.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OxbYva_szc

[Bethere]

This has always been the problem with special prosecutors with those who oppose them. Whitewater eventually led to a blow job by a young white house intern. I've seen several pundits comment on Mueller and that they felt he would keep things pretty narrow but you never know when one thing will open another can or worms. Its the nature of the beast.

"But that's different, " our conservative friends would note.

[decedent]

You've stil failed to find any crime Trump has committed.

Then you've got nothing to worry about.

[Tahuyaman]

Then you've got nothing to worry about.


I never did have anything to worry about.

[decedent]

A very thin line. I imagine if law enforcement pre-investigation examined your life they will find something to get you with.

Welcome to Hillary's world. Leave no stone unturned. The GOP set the standard for using Congress as a hit squad.

[Tahuyaman]

"But that's different, " our conservative friends would note.

Your comment didn't work in that instance.

[The Xl]

All this over literally nothing. It's either lunacy or treason.

[Bo-4]

I vote libertarian or constitution party. Somethings, especially local it is labeled independent.

Well, you might stand a chance if one of them nominates an Oprah or Duane Johnson ..

Politician or pundit?

Nope

[decedent]

Such as? Be both specific and accurate.

Scroll up.

[decedent]

Well, you might stand a chance if one of them nominates an Oprah or Duane Johnson ..

Politician or pundit?

Nope

Don't forget Kanye. Trump set a new standard. Anyone can run for POTUS now.

[Tahuyaman]

Scroll up.

I did. There's nothing both specific and accurate.

[hanger4]

No ^ the investigation into Russia started before the election.

Can't you remember what you posted ?? T quoted you Bo;

"You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired."

[ripmeister]

Welcome to Hillary's world. Leave no stone unturned. The GOP set the standard for using Congress as a hit squad.

Ain't that the truth. Its that karma thingy. Its kinda like the "nuclear option" debate that went on where people were saying that the Dems would regret Reids original move, and they certainly did.

[Mister D]

As you can see, the kooks are slowly backing away from the legitimacy of these attacks. Oh, now it's just pay back. Gee, I remember someone predicting this. You are all so undignified. :laugh:

[Tahuyaman]

Can't you remember what you posted ?? T quoted you Bo;

"You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired."

Don't confuse him. He's on a roll.

[ripmeister]

Until evidence is produced to justify the investigation/examination it is just a witch hunt.
Here is a good synopsis of the arguments for and against an obstruction charge.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/6/8/15763202/comey-trump-obstruction-constitution-impeachment-flynn

[Bo-4]

Can't you remember what you posted ?? T quoted you Bo;

"You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired."

Tahu didn't say the investigation of Trump .. he said THE INVESTIGATION .. meaning into Russia in general.

Damn you slow! :D

[Peter1469]

This looks like Trump colluding with Russia to me ...



http://res.cloudinary.com/luvckye9s/image/upload/v1484598785/1_q8b9lb.png

That was a joke. No serious person thought that was a communication to Moscow.

lol

[Peter1469]

Welcome to Hillary's world. Leave no stone unturned. The GOP set the standard for using Congress as a hit squad.

There was always probable cause that crimes were committed....

[Peter1469]

Well, you might stand a chance if one of them nominates an Oprah or Duane Johnson ..

Politician or pundit?

Nope

My next option is to not vote.

The (D) and (R) Establishment is utterly corrupt.

[ripmeister]

There was always probable cause that crimes were committed....
I have a suspicion that probable cause may be in the eyes of the beholder.

[Tahuyaman]

Tahu didn't say the investigation of Trump .. he said THE INVESTIGATION .. meaning into Russia in general.

Damn you slow! :D


All of it about Trump. The Russian collusion and obstruction of justice fantasies are one in the same. They are designed to bring down the Trump administration by any means possible. The lack of substance behind this thing is immaterial. They think the evidence can be created by repeating the meme over and over again, because in the liberal world a lie repeated often enough morphs into the truth.


The Russia thing was dismissed as nonsense up until late on election evening because Hillary was going to win a huge historic landslide. When that didn't happen, all hell broke loose within the ruling class.


The hard left and even some on the right in the ruling class can not accept the outcome of the election. It shocked them to the core.

[ripmeister]

All of it about Trump. The Russian collusion and obstruction of justice fantasies are one in the same. They are designed to bring down the Trump administration by any means possible. The lack of substance behind this thing is immaterial. They think the evidence can be created by repeating the meme over and over again, because in the liberal world a lie repeated often enough morphs into the truth.


The Russia thing was dismissed as nonsense up until late on election evening because Hillary was going to win a huge historic landslide. When that didn't happen, all hell broke loose within the ruling class.


The hard left and even some on the right in the ruling class can not accept the outcome of the election. It shocked them to the core.
I don't consider myself hard left and I accepted the results of the election. The Russians though did meddle. Did it make a difference? Probably not but it may have at the margins. That doesn't mean though that we don't take their intrusion seriously both then and in the future IMO. To combat such things we need to have an understanding of what really happened, hence an investigation.

[Bo-4]

Don't forget Kanye. Trump set a new standard. Anyone can run for POTUS now.

Busey/ Meatloaf 2024! :D

[Peter1469]

I have a suspicion that probable cause may be in the eyes of the beholder.

It has a real definition in the law.

[Safety]

Obstruction of justice is a "high crime" but so is treason and bribery.

I wonder if the Senate will put country before party.

It seems like the hard right has put Trump first before the country. So different than 2016 and previous years...

[Tahuyaman]

I don't consider myself hard left and I accepted the results of the election. The Russians though did meddle. Did it make a difference? Probably not but it may have at the margins. That doesn't mean though that we don't take their intrusion seriously both then and in the future IMO. To combat such things we need to have an understanding of what really happened, hence an investigation.


No one can define how the Russians meddled in the election. People just assume they did because they have attempted to undermine our democracy in the past. It's what they do.


Trying to pass this off in the manner you just did is being intellectually dishonest

[The Xl]

It seems like the hard right has put Trump first before the country. So different than 2016 and previous years...

Based on what, exactly? You guys aren't even articulating a coherent case.

[Bo-4]

As you can see, the kooks are slowly backing away from the legitimacy of these attacks. Oh, now it's just pay back. Gee, I remember someone predicting this. You are all so undignified. :laugh:

Your posts today are kind of like an articulate version of Tatuyaman.

Oh how the once relevant have fallen ;-)

[Tahuyaman]

It seems like the hard right has put Trump first before the country. So different than 2016 and previous years...

Accepting an election result and recognizing there's no evidence to support partisan accusations is placing Trump ahead of the country?



The left is placing their partisan fantasies before the country.

[Safety]

Based on what, exactly? You guys aren't even articulating a coherent case.

"You guys"...interesting.

Anyway, based upon years of constantly hearing "I'm a real patriot", "Conservatives are real Americans", when Obama was president. Real patriots or real Americans should care whether or not an outside entity interfered in the democratic process, not turn a blind eye because it helped their guy get elected.

[Hoosier8]

"You guys"...interesting.

Anyway, based upon years of constantly hearing "I'm a real patriot", "Conservatives are real Americans", when Obama was president. Real patriots or real Americans should care whether or not an outside entity interfered in the democratic process, not turn a blind eye because it helped their guy get elected.

So how did they interfere? So far the only answer is news outlet stories or social media. Sorry, but ours were just as bad if not worse.

As far as hacking emails, still no real evidence, just levels of confidence and we all know now the intelligence community leaks like a sieve.

[Safety]

Accepting an election result and recognizing there's no evidence to support partisan accusations is placing Trump ahead of the country?



The left is placing their partisan fantasies before the country.

Accepting the election results is one aspect, Trump is the elected president. However, saying that there is no evidence, but at the same time mocking or trying to marginalize the evidence gathering, is intellectually dishonest. That's like saying just because the guys that killed the three young men in Mississippi didn't get found guilty, they didn't commit murder.

[Safety]

So how did they interfere? So far the only answer is news outlet stories or social media. Sorry, but ours were just as bad if not worse.

Why don't you wait for the investigation to conclude?

[Hoosier8]

Why don't you wait for the investigation to conclude?
Well now, why hasn't the left ever thought of doing that?

[del]

Why don't you wait for the investigation to conclude?

it's over

it's a big nothingburger

ask any of trump's goalies here, they'll tell you

[Captain Obvious]

Well now, why hasn't the left ever thought of doing that?

Because there will never be a conclusion.

Funny thing those witch hunts.

[exotix]

Because there will never be a conclusion.

Funny thing those witch hunts.Oh nooooooooes !

[decedent]

Look at all the Trumplings talking like Trump wasn't being investigate before this week. Russiagate goes back half a year. The case is building. Meanwhile, it looks like Trump committed obstruction of justice. Doh.

[del]

Because there will never be a conclusion.

Funny thing those witch hunts.


that's what nixon said.

worked out well for him, iirc

santayana was right as was barnum

you're proof

[Safety]

Well now, why hasn't the left ever thought of doing that?


Because there will never be a conclusion.

Funny thing those witch hunts.

For how long did Benghazi and emailgate get investigated? Why were those ok to be investigated for so long, but this one should be dropped?

[Hoosier8]

Look at all the Trumplings talking like Trump wasn't being investigate before this week. Russiagate goes back half a year. The case is building. Meanwhile, it looks like Trump committed obstruction of justice. Doh.
Actually Russiagate goes back almost a year now and still nothing. The FBI could find nothing, the NSA could find nothing so now the left needs a new bogeyman after such a devastating nothingburgrer.

[Safety]

it's over

it's a big nothingburger

ask any of trump's goalies here, they'll tell you

I don't recall the same members questioning the hundreds of threads about benghazi or emailgate.

/shrug.

[Hoosier8]

For how long did Benghazi and emailgate get investigated? Why were those ok to be investigated for so long, but this one should be dropped?
Which of course uncovered all the lies and even prompted an FBI Director to outline how awful Hillary was. For the left, meh. Couldn't care less.

[Safety]

Which of course uncovered all the lies and even prompted an FBI Director to outline how awful Hillary was. For the left, meh. Couldn't care less.

Non-responsive reply. But, isn't that exactly what this investigation is uncovering about Trump?

[The Xl]

"You guys"...interesting.

Anyway, based upon years of constantly hearing "I'm a real patriot", "Conservatives are real Americans", when Obama was president. Real patriots or real Americans should care whether or not an outside entity interfered in the democratic process, not turn a blind eye because it helped their guy get elected.

Yeah, you guys. The majority of the left on this site. I don't see why that's either quotation worthy, or interesting.

No one is buying the Russian narrative. If anything, those trying to throw water on a legitimate election are putting party, and politics, over country.

[ripmeister]

It has a real definition in the law.
Its a little malleable though.

[Ethereal]

You cannot "obstruct" a witch hunt. Assuming any of this actually resulted in a prosecution (a pure fantasy, but bear with me), it would likely be thrown out on appeal since there was never probable cause to begin with. But I encourage Democrats and their deep state partners to keep pushing as hard as they can to destroy Trump. They are tearing the union apart and I see that as a good thing in the long run.

[Peter1469]

The investigation is meant to last until the 2020 elections regardless of how many theories are shown to be false

[hanger4]

Tahu didn't say the investigation of Trump .. he said THE INVESTIGATION .. meaning into Russia in general.

Damn you slow! :D

He quoted and therefore was responding to you and you stated "You should catch up. The investigation into Trump began a day or two after Comey was fired."

Me thinks tis you that needs to catch up.

[Peter1469]

Its a little malleable though.

Not to a great degree.

[The Xl]

Look at all the Trumplings talking like Trump wasn't being investigate before this week. Russiagate goes back half a year. The case is building. Meanwhile, it looks like Trump committed obstruction of justice. Doh.
Russiagate has been ongoing for over half a year, and literally nothing has been provided. It's likely that nothing outside of conjecture and suggestion will be provided.

[Ethereal]

Yeah, you guys. The majority of the left on this site. I don't see why that's either quotation worthy, or interesting.

No one is buying the Russian narrative. If anything, those trying to throw water on a legitimate election are putting party, and politics, over country.

Yea, and let's just ignore the fact that this "interference" was revealing massive corruption within a major political party. We could use more of that kind of interference in the future.

[The Xl]

You cannot "obstruct" a witch hunt. Assuming any of this actually resulted in a prosecution (a pure fantasy, but bear with me), it would likely be thrown out on appeal since there was never probable cause to begin with. But I encourage Democrats and their deep state partners to keep pushing as hard as they can to destroy Trump. They are tearing the union apart and I see that as a good thing in the long run.

It's snapping many out of the trance, even people who aren't politically inclined. It's a fantastic thing.

[ripmeister]

No one can define how the Russians meddled in the election. People just assume they did because they have attempted to undermine our democracy in the past. It's what they do.


Trying to pass this off in the manner you just did is being intellectually dishonest
How am I being intellectually dishonest? All the intelligence services have said as much. I guess if you reject all of that then you can come to your conclusion. I don't reject it. I don't think that makes me dishonest.

[Captain Obvious]

that's what nixon said.

worked out well for him, iirc

santayana was right as was barnum

you're proof

That's nice, honey.

Wake me when it's over.

[The Xl]

Yea, and let's just ignore the fact that this "interference" was revealing massive corruption within a major political party. We could use more of that kind of interference in the future.

Lol, that's what doesn't even get any attention. The alleged "interference" was just factually accurate evidence showing Hillary Clinton was a corrupt lying piece of garbage. The horror in that being unveiled.

[Ethereal]

The investigation is meant to last until the 2020 elections regardless of how many theories are shown to be false
Right. They are trying to destroy Trump. They've been trying to destroy him since he became a serious contender in the Republican primaries. And if they somehow succeed in destroying him, it will cause Trump's supporters and sympathizers (approximately 60 million Americans) to lose all faith in the political system and the union that underlies it. Democrats seem to think they can wantonly destroy Trump and replace him with their own handpicked socialist and that the country will just accept it, albeit grudgingly. That simply isn't going to happen. The 2020 elections are going to be some of the nastiest in American history and the outcome, in either direction, is going to cause massive hatred and resentment towards the winner. We might see a hot civil war within a decade if things continue down this path.

[ripmeister]

For how long did Benghazi and emailgate get investigated? Why were those ok to be investigated for so long, but this one should be dropped?
How do you think Trump would compare to Clintons 11 hour testimony with Trey and the boys. I bet it would be hilarious.

[Common Sense]

Russiagate has been ongoing for over half a year, and literally nothing has been provided. It's likely that nothing outside of conjecture and suggestion will be provided.
Meanwhile there were 7 investigations over 2 years investigating Clinton and Benghazi.

I'll reserve my judgement until the investigation is closed.

[Ethereal]

It's snapping many out of the trance, even people who aren't politically inclined. It's a fantastic thing.
Yea, lots of conservatives who basically worshiped the national security state in the past are starting to realize how powerful, corrupt, and unaccountable it has become. Libertarians tried to warn them for years that all that power and secrecy could be abused for nefarious purposes but they never listened. Now that their beloved Trump is the target, they are starting to wake up, albeit slowly. Moreover, this whole ordeal is revealing what a farce the "union" really is. There is no broad unity in this country and there never has been. Since the very beginning, it's been a struggle for mastery over each other. It's the law of the jungle, not the rule of law. It's about time people realized this.

[ripmeister]

Right. They are trying to destroy Trump. They've been trying to destroy him since he became a serious contender in the Republican primaries. And if they somehow succeed in destroying him, it will cause Trump's supporters and sympathizers (approximately 60 million Americans) to lose all faith in the political system and the union that underlies it. Democrats seem to think they can wantonly destroy Trump and replace him with their own handpicked socialist and that the country will just accept it, albeit grudgingly. That simply isn't going to happen. The 2020 elections are going to be some of the nastiest in American history and the outcome, in either direction, is going to cause massive hatred and resentment towards the winner. We might see a hot civil war within a decade if things continue down this path.
Actually, getting rid of Trump would result in inheriting Pence. Now that's scary.

[The Xl]

Right. They are trying to destroy Trump. They've been trying to destroy him since he became a serious contender in the Republican primaries. And if they somehow succeed in destroying him, it will cause Trump's supporters and sympathizers (approximately 60 million Americans) to lose all faith in the political system and the union that underlies it. Democrats seem to think they can wantonly destroy Trump and replace him with their own handpicked socialist and that the country will just accept it, albeit grudgingly. That simply isn't going to happen. The 2020 elections are going to be some of the nastiest in American history and the outcome, in either direction, is going to cause massive hatred and resentment towards the winner. We might see a hot civil war within a decade if things continue down this path.

A civil war could happen. Whether he was the right man for the job or not, Donald Trump was legitimately elected the President. For the political, business, media and entertainment classes to overrule that based off a lie is going to set a lot of people off. No one is going to openly accept a political and business oligarchy.

[Ethereal]

Meanwhile there were 7 investigations over 2 years investigating Clinton and Benghazi.

I'll reserve my judgement until the investigation is closed.

Clinton is part of the establishment, protected. It doesn't matter how corrupt or criminal her behavior is, she will get away with it.

Conversely, Trump's relationship with the establishment is ambivalent at best. In their eyes, only complete subservience will be tolerated and Trump's early defiance has marked him for destruction, just like all the other political leaders who defied the establishment.

[Captain Obvious]

Meanwhile there were 7 investigations over 2 years investigating Clinton and Benghazi.

I'll reserve my judgement until the investigation is closed.

Translation for the libtard impaired: I'm supporting whatever lies and trash this witch hunt bakes up.

[Common Sense]

Clinton is part of the establishment, protected. It doesn't matter how corrupt or criminal her behavior is, she will get away with it.

Conversely, Trump's relationship with the establishment is ambivalent at best. In their eyes, only complete subservience will be tolerated and Trump's early defiance has marked him for destruction, just like all the other political leaders who defied the establishment.

So the bipartisan and partisan investigations were just an elaborate show?

Come on...

[del]

Translation for the libtard impaired: I'm supporting whatever lies and trash this witch hunt bakes up.
go, mac, go

[Common Sense]

Translation for the libtard impaired: I'm supporting whatever lies and trash this witch hunt bakes up.

You've gone full Trumpster, huh? Looks good on you.

[The Xl]

Meanwhile there were 7 investigations over 2 years investigating Clinton and Benghazi.

I'll reserve my judgement until the investigation is closed.

Of course you will, it's politically convenient. It's also convenient that this whole Russian narrative sprung to life the second Donald Trump winning became a possibility.

[texan]

Just for the record it says examination.

[Ethereal]

A civil war could happen. Whether he was the right man for the job or not, Donald Trump was legitimately elected the President. For the political, business, media and entertainment classes to overrule that based off a lie is going to set a lot of people off. No one is going to openly accept a political and business oligarchy.

People on this forum seem to think Americans are too content, lazy, distracted, etc. to revolt, and that may be true for the average person out there, but most civil wars and revolutions are fought by a tiny percentage of the population. It doesn't require a populist movement to happen or succeed. Even if 1% of the country was at war with one another, that would 3.2 million people fighting. That would be one of the biggest wars in history. Nobody is taking this possibility seriously because they want to remain comfortable in their fantasy land where everything is fine and the status quo will just keep chugging along.

[Common Sense]

Of course you will, it's politically convenient. It's also convenient that this whole Russian narrative sprung to life the second Donald Trump winning became a possibility.

Yeah, big conspiracy...deep state globalists just planted all that circumstantial evidence.

[The Xl]

Yeah, big conspiracy...deep state globalists just planted all that circumstantial evidence.

There is no evidence. That's precisely why it's a conspiracy. It's not being hid very well.

[Ethereal]

So the bipartisan and partisan investigations were just an elaborate show?

Come on...

No, the system works, is fundamentally honest and noble, and accountable to the American people.

That's the more likely explanation.

[Ethereal]

Yeah, big conspiracy...deep state globalists just planted all that circumstantial evidence.
"Circumstantial evidence" is being generous. More like speculation, innuendo, and hysteria.

[The Xl]

No, the system works, is fundamentally honest and noble, and accountable to the American people.

That's the more likely explanation.

Cops can get away with murder on videotape, but the system is going to work fairly in regards to Hillary Clinton, one of the biggest establishment politicians in the history of the country. Seems legit.

[Common Sense]

No, the system works, is fundamentally honest and noble, and accountable to the American people.

That's the more likely explanation.
No, no....the thousands of people involved in the many aspects of the Benghazi investigations were just putting on theatre for the unwashed masses. That and Sandy Hook was fake...

[Common Sense]

Cops can get away with murder on videotape, but the system is going to work fairly in regards to Hillary Clinton, one of the biggest establishment politicians in the history of the country.

Yeah, the Republicans were just pretending to grill her over Benghazi. It was all fixed from the get go.


Christ....

[Ethereal]

Cops can get away with murder on videotape, but the system is going to work fairly in regards to Hillary Clinton, one of the biggest establishment politicians in the history of the country.

The cognitive dissonance is truly astonishing. The US government has been caught lying about so many things of such massive importance and yet people still trust them. This can only be explained by heavy psychological programming and conditioning.

[hanger4]

Meanwhile there were 7 investigations over 2 years investigating Clinton and Benghazi.

I'll reserve my judgement until the investigation is closed.

Meanwhile there was Hillary's failure to comply. I sure that had nothing to do with the amount of time or money consumed.

[The Xl]

Yeah, the Republicans were just pretending to grill her over Benghazi. It was all fixed from the get go.


Christ....
You're terribly fixation on this republican vs democrat thing, as if it isn't political theater, as if they don't golf together, like they aren't proxies paid for by the same people.

[Common Sense]

"Circumstantial evidence" is being generous. More like speculation, innuendo, and hysteria.

There is a hell of a lot of smoke. If this evidence was connected to a President Clinton, the right would be calling for her head. You know that's true. Just look at Benghazi.

I personally don't believe there was direct collusion between Trump himself and Russia, but I'll wait to see what the investigation finds.

[The Xl]

The cognitive dissonance is truly astonishing. The US government has been caught lying about so many things of such massive importance and yet people still trust them. This can only be explained by heavy psychological programming and conditioning.
It's ridiculous. They don't even try to reason it through.

[Ethereal]

No, no....the thousands of people involved in the many aspects of the Benghazi investigations were just putting on theatre for the unwashed masses. That and Sandy Hook was fake...
You don't seem to understand how vertical hierarchies work. The people at the bottom of the pyramid are just functionaries for the most part. Only a small amount of people at the top of the pyramid are of any real consequence in terms of how the hierarchy makes decisions and policies. That's why, for example, Edward Snowden had to go outside the system in order to change how the NSA was operating, because he was powerless to do so from within the organizational hierarchy. So, yes, getting a bunch of foot soldiers to do your bidding for you while you and a few key figures predetermine or manipulate the outcome is really not that difficult. It's been done thousands of times throughout history. Virtually every major war in history is proof that millions of otherwise normal, decent people can be convinced to commit unspeakable acts against perfect strangers simply because some authority figure told them to do it.

[Common Sense]

You're terribly fixation on this republican vs democrat thing, as if it isn't political theater, as if they don't golf together, like they aren't proxies paid for by the same people.
Yikes...that's the rabbit hole many of you have found yourself in. Have fun down there.

[The Xl]

Yikes...that's the rabbit hole many of you have found yourself in. Have fun down there.
Cool, a non response. I'm not really surprised.

[Ethereal]

There is a hell of a lot of smoke. If this evidence was connected to a President Clinton, the right would be calling for her head. You know that's true. Just look at Benghazi.

I personally don't believe there was direct collusion between Trump himself and Russia, but I'll wait to see what the investigation finds.
What evidence? That Trump and some other people sat a table with some Russians before? Did some business dealings with Russia? Talked to a Russian on the phone? This is all mundane stuff that proves nothing beyond itself.

Comparatively, there is no question that Clinton was in charge of operations at Benghazi when four Americans were killed by terrorists. And it was proven that requests for additional security were made, requests that Clinton failed to heed. Are you saying that people in leadership positions shouldn't be held accountable?

[Safety]

Yeah, you guys. The majority of the left on this site. I don't see why that's either quotation worthy, or interesting.

No one is buying the Russian narrative. If anything, those trying to throw water on a legitimate election are putting party, and politics, over country.

I put the quotation marks because I wanted to highlight the key indicator of the response. That was further explained by the your following comment. The pieces are pretty much coming together, "no one is buying the Russian narrative" means that someone that has made it no secret that they didn't like Clinton, is being sooo objective...

No, I would imagine that the ones that constantly pontificated about how corrupt and crooked Clinton was, and how the investigation was exposing that corruption and crookedness, and how it was saving the nation, would extend the same courtesy for any investigation that sought out to expose corruption and crookedness....guess that door doesn't swing both ways, does it?

[Ethereal]

Yikes...that's the rabbit hole many of you have found yourself in. Have fun down there.
Rabbit hole? A Princeton study determined the US is an oligarchy. Movements like Occupy Wall Street are based on the premise that the "one percent" own the system and exploit the masses. Black Lives Matter is based on the premise that America's law enforcement agencies are abusive and authoritarian. Countless intellectuals, politicians, journalists, scientists, etc. have spoken to such things. How are you going to keep denying the obvious?

[The Xl]

I put the quotation marks because I wanted to highlight the key indicator of the response. That was further explained by the your following comment. The pieces are pretty much coming together, "no one is buying the Russian narrative" means that someone that has made it no secret that they didn't like Clinton, is being sooo objective...

No, I would imagine that the ones that constantly pontificated about how corrupt and crooked Clinton was, and how the investigation was exposing that corruption and crookedness, and how it was saving the nation, would extend the same courtesy for any investigation that sought out to expose corruption and crookedness....guess that door doesn't swing both ways, does it?

Like or dislike of Hillary Clinton has absolutely zero to do with the credibility and subsequent dismissal of this silly Russian conspiracy theory.

There was reason to investigate Hillary. There reason for investigating Trump starts and ends with them not liking him as President of the United States. 7 months, and still, absolutely nothing.

[Safety]

How do you think Trump would compare to Clintons 11 hour testimony with Trey and the boys. I bet it would be hilarious.

He would attempt to fire the entire panel holding the inquiry. The hard right would look the other way...so much for constitutional conservatives....

[The Xl]

Rabbit hole? A Princeton study determined the US is an oligarchy. Movements like Occupy Wall Street are based on the premise that the "one percent" own the system and exploit the masses. Black Lives Matter is based on the premise that America's law enforcement agencies are abusive and authoritarian. Countless intellectuals, politicians, journalists, scientists, etc. have spoken to such things. How are you going to keep denying the obvious?

You don't understand bro, the average cop has more political pull and protection than Hillary Clinton.

[Safety]

Like or dislike of Hillary Clinton has absolutely zero to do with the credibility and subsequent dismissal of this silly Russian conspiracy theory.

There was reason to investigate Hillary. There reason for investigating Trump starts and ends with them not liking him as President of the United States. 7 months, and still, absolutely nothing.

That doesn't pass the sniff test.

[The Xl]

That doesn't pass the sniff test.
Not yours, anyway. Not like that's surprising.

[Ethereal]

America was founded by people who believed corruption in politics was the norm, and that distrust towards those in power ought to be the default position.

Now we live in a country where people ignore history, ignore facts, and delude themselves into believing that the richest, most powerful government in human history can be trusted.

Amazing.

[The Xl]

America was founded by people who believed corruption in politics was the norm. That acute skepticism towards those in power ought to be the default position.

Now we live in a country where people ignore history, ignore facts, and delude themselves into believing that the richest, most powerful government in human history can be trusted.

Amazing.
Most people have been conditioned to accept that Western leaders are Gods who have impeccable morality and can do no evil.

[Common Sense]

Cool, a non response. I'm not really surprised.

The meaning of my response was that I find that sort of wild overreaching vast conspiracy to be self fulfilling rabbit hole that many subscribe to, but I don't buy it.

I honestly don't want to mock you for your beliefs, nor is it my intention to belittle you, but I find those sorts of conspiracy theories to be juvenile and simplistic. They are attractive because the believer feels empowered by these theories. They feel as if they are a select few who are in the know and that the rest of us are fools.

[Common Sense]

Most people have been conditioned to accept that Western leaders are Gods who have impeccable morality and can do no evil.

Who the fuck thinks that? I don't know anyone ever who has thought that.

[The Xl]

The meaning of my response was that I find that sort of wild overreaching vast conspiracy to be self fulfilling rabbit hole that many subscribe to, but I don't buy it.

I honestly don't want to mock you for your beliefs, nor is it my intention to belittle you, but I find those sorts of conspiracy theories to be juvenile and simplistic. They are attractive because the believer feels empowered by these theories. They feel as if they are a select few who are in the know and that the rest of us are fools.

........You say, while the vast majority of the left is currently subscribing to a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Most of these things aren't theories anyway, they're mostly provable. The Republicans and Democrats are generally proxies paid for by the same people, with the exception of the odd outlier. That's a fact.

[The Xl]

Who the fuck thinks that? I don't know anyone ever who has thought that.

You generally believe what you're told and dismiss anything else as a conspiracy. The lot of you do.

[Common Sense]

America was founded by people who believed corruption in politics was the norm, and that distrust towards those in power ought to be the default position.

Now we live in a country where people ignore history, ignore facts, and delude themselves into believing that the richest, most powerful government in human history can be trusted.

Amazing.

Corruption is one thing, vast conspiracies that essentially imply that all parties (thousands and thousands of people) are colluding all under the control of a select few anonymous and somewhat nefarious power brokers are another thing.

No one denies that the US and other governments have done and continue to do bad things, collude, mislead and play a political game.

[Common Sense]

You generally believe what you're told and dismiss anything else as a conspiracy. The lot of you do.

Nope. I believe that there certainly are things that we don't know and that governments do bad things. I just don't believe in some grand conspiracy.

Again, no one thinks that western leaders are gods who have impeccable morality. I believe they are just people and like all people, they are flawed.

[Common Sense]

........You say, while the vast majority of the left is currently subscribing to a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Sure, that's valid. People are clearly drawn to them. Left and right. Just look at 9/11.

[Ethereal]

The meaning of my response was that I find that sort of wild overreaching vast conspiracy to be self fulfilling rabbit hole that many subscribe to, but I don't buy it.

I honestly don't want to mock you for your beliefs, nor is it my intention to belittle you, but I find those sorts of conspiracy theories to be juvenile and simplistic. They are attractive because the believer feels empowered by these theories. They feel as if they are a select few who are in the know and that the rest of us are fools.
Were the American founding fathers prone to "wild, overreaching, vast conspiracy"? Their royalist opponents seemed to think so. In fact, you sound very similar to the monarchists who objected to republicanism. They would often refer to republicans as paranoid, juvenile, etc.

[The Xl]

Nope. I believe that there certainly are things that we don't know and that governments do bad things. I just don't believe in some grand conspiracy.

Again, no one thinks that western leaders are gods who have impeccable morality. I believe they are just people and like all people, they are flawed.

You effectively enable them when you dismiss everything, regardless of what your intent is. These are the same psychopaths that hold us up in wars to subsidize the military industrial complex. They aren't good or honest people. And no, I'm not dismissing Trump from that either, he's in that boat as well.

[Mister D]

Yeah, you guys. The majority of the left on this site. I don't see why that's either quotation worthy, or interesting.

No one is buying the Russian narrative. If anything, those trying to throw water on a legitimate election are putting party, and politics, over country.
It was neither.

[Common Sense]

Were the American founding fathers prone to "wild, overreaching, vast conspiracy"? Their royalist opponents seemed to think so. In fact, you sound very similar to the monarchists who objected to republicanism. They would often refer to republicans as paranoid, juvenile, etc.

That's bullshit. Taxation without representation was never seen as a grand conspiracy.

If you want to believe in a small group of evil people pulling the strings and everything is fake, go for it.

I'd rather take a more realistic standpoint.

[Common Sense]

You effectively enable them when you dismiss everything, regardless of what your intent is. These are the same psychopaths that hold us up in wars to subsidize the military industrial complex. They aren't good or honest people. And no, I'm not dismissing Trump from that either, he's in that boat as well.
I could argue you go to the other extreme. You see them as nefarious evil people. I see them as people who deal with complex issues and complex situations that often require unsavoury tactics to keep the lights on and trains running. These people aren't evil psychopaths, they are flawed and sometimes greedy people dealing with a complex and established political system and the players that operate within it. While I disagree with George Bush's reasons for going to war in Iraq, I don't think his intentions were evil. I think they were misguided and based on a flawed political philosophy.

Often what these conspiracy theories do, is take a complex issue and simplify them as some diabolical scheme. More often than not it's not a conspiracy, but rather incompetence.

[Ethereal]

Corruption is one thing, vast conspiracies that essentially imply that all parties (thousands and thousands of people) are colluding all under the control of a select few anonymous and somewhat nefarious power brokers are another thing.

I already explained to you that vertical hierarchies don't need lowly and mid-level functionaries to have inside knowledge of the conspiracy. Literally hundreds of central governments throughout history have operated on essentially the same model: A broad base of functionaries being controlled and directed by a tiny elite at the top. This is not a "theory" at all. Just read any history book about Egyptian Pharaohs, Hellenic Kings, Asian Emperors, etc. The masses have been ruled by the elites for thousands of years. The enlightenment was supposed to change that and in some respects it did. But it would be supremely naive to assume things have changed on a fundamental level. The many are still under the thumb of the few.


No one denies that the US and other governments have done and continue to do bad things, collude, mislead and play a political game.
So then what are you objecting to, exactly?

[Safety]

Not yours, anyway. Not like that's surprising.

I guess...that would be why I said it.

[Common Sense]

I already explained to you that vertical hierarchies don't need lowly and mid-level functionaries to have inside knowledge of the conspiracy. Literally hundreds of central governments throughout history have operated on essentially the same model: A broad base of functionaries being controlled and directed by a tiny elite at the top. This is not a "theory" at all. Just read any history book about Egyptian Pharaohs, Hellenic Kings, Asian Emperors, etc. The masses have been ruled by the elites for thousands of years. The enlightenment was supposed to change that and in some respects it did. But it would be supremely naive to assume things have changed on a fundamental level. The many are still under the thumb of the few.


So then what are you objecting to, exactly?
I object to the idea that there is some grand conspiracy perpetrated by a small cabal of evil power brokers.

[Mister D]

Nope. I believe that there certainly are things that we don't know and that governments do bad things. I just don't believe in some grand conspiracy.

Again, no one thinks that western leaders are gods who have impeccable morality. I believe they are just people and like all people, they are flawed.
No one else does either. Your use of the term "grand conspiracy" to describe views you can't stomach proves his point.

[Ethereal]

Nope. I believe that there certainly are things that we don't know and that governments do bad things. I just don't believe in some grand conspiracy.

Again, no one thinks that western leaders are gods who have impeccable morality. I believe they are just people and like all people, they are flawed.

It's not really that grand though. It's just a relatively small group of rich and powerful people using government to consolidate and expand their position. In other words, it's the same thing that's been happening for thousands of years.

[Mister D]

I object to the idea that there is some grand conspiracy perpetrated by a small cabal of evil power brokers.
And whose idea is this?

[Mister D]

It's not really that grand though. It's just a relatively small group of rich and powerful people using government to consolidate and expand their position. In other words, it's the same thing that's been happening for thousands of years.
I don't agree with all of what you say but that there is a Western elite that pushes certain interests seems obvious enough.

[Common Sense]

It's not really that grand though. It's just a relatively small group of rich and powerful people using government to consolidate and expand their position. In other words, it's the same thing that's been happening for thousands of years.

..and they control things like the Benghazi hearings and their outcome?

How small is this group? Is it one group? Is it along the lines of the Illuminati?

[Common Sense]

I don't agree with all of what you say but that there is a Western elite that pushes certain interests seems obvious enough.

I agree with that. There are certainly powerful people that try to exert their power through the use of money and influence. There are competing powers with different agendas and goals.

[Ethereal]

That's bull$#@!. Taxation without representation was never seen as a grand conspiracy.

"Taxation without representation" is grade school history, a platitude. The American revolution was much more than a simple slogan. But let's assume that was the overriding concern that fueled the American revolution, the denial of adequate representation would necessarily entail some measure of "conspiracy" on the part of the British nobility. Or do you think the King and his nobles and the parliament went around openly acknowledging the colonist's claims that the crown wanted to deny them their rights as natural born Englishmen?


If you want to believe in a small group of evil people pulling the strings and everything is fake, go for it.

I didn't say everything was fake. But it's pretty obvious that the elites are pulling the strings and that they are quite evil.


I'd rather take a more realistic standpoint.

Or the more comforting one.

[Safety]

Who the fuck thinks that? I don't know anyone ever who has thought that.

Hyperbole for the win.

[Ethereal]

I could argue you go to the other extreme. You see them as nefarious evil people. I see them as people who deal with complex issues and complex situations that often require unsavoury tactics to keep the lights on and trains running. These people aren't evil psychopaths, they are flawed and sometimes greedy people dealing with a complex and established political system and the players that operate within it. While I disagree with George Bush's reasons for going to war in Iraq, I don't think his intentions were evil. I think they were misguided and based on a flawed political philosophy.

Often what these conspiracy theories do, is take a complex issue and simplify them as some diabolical scheme. More often than not it's not a conspiracy, but rather incompetence.
George Bush was just a figurehead, a puppet. The real power behind the throne was the military-industrial complex. I believe it was that conspiracy theorist Eisenhower who warned Americans about them.

[Ethereal]

I object to the idea that there is some grand conspiracy perpetrated by a small cabal of evil power brokers.
But you admit that the US government has committed evil acts and that the US government is heavily influenced by the most powerful people in society, right?

[Common Sense]

"Taxation without representation" is grade school history, a platitude. The American revolution was much more than a simple slogan. But let's assume that was the overriding concern that fueled the American revolution, the denial of adequate representation would necessarily entail some measure of "conspiracy" on the part of the British nobility. Or do you think the King and his nobles and the parliament went around openly acknowledging the colonist's claims that the crown wanted to deny them their rights as natural born Englishmen?



I didn't say everything was fake. But it's pretty obvious that the elites are pulling the strings and that they are quite evil.



Or the more comforting one.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. It sounds silly. There are a bunch of evil people pulling all the strings. It's simplistic and naive. Reality is far more complex than that.

[stjames1_53]

I agree with that. There are certainly powerful people that try to exert their power through the use of money and influence. There are competing powers with different agendas and goals.

you wouldn't much like being governed in Canada from DC

[The Xl]

I could argue you go to the other extreme. You see them as nefarious evil people. I see them as people who deal with complex issues and complex situations that often require unsavoury tactics to keep the lights on and trains running. These people aren't evil psychopaths, they are flawed and sometimes greedy people dealing with a complex and established political system and the players that operate within it. While I disagree with George Bush's reasons for going to war in Iraq, I don't think his intentions were evil. I think they were misguided and based on a flawed political philosophy.

Often what these conspiracy theories do, is take a complex issue and simplify them as some diabolical scheme. More often than not it's not a conspiracy, but rather incompetence.

That would have some traction if all of these political types weren't all bought and paid for by big money, openly. I'd say that it's very suspicious at best when everything these political types do soley benefit their donors.

[Mister D]

Who the $#@! thinks that? I don't know anyone ever who has thought that.
How can you fault people for getting this impression when you keep using terms like "grand conspiracy" to describe what seems pretty obvious?

[Common Sense]

But you admit that the US government has committed evil acts and that the US government is heavily influenced by the most powerful people in society, right?
I don't really subscribe to the concept of evil. They have done some horrific, inhumane and criminal things, of course. The US government, like many governments, is influenced by money.

[Ethereal]

..and they control things like the Benghazi hearings and their outcome?

How small is this group? Is it one group? Is it along the lines of the Illuminati?

They control the things that matter most in society, to include covering up the crimes and deviance of their allies and cronies.

As for precise numbers, I cannot answer that. It's not one discrete group, but multiple groups whose interests converge more often than they diverge. Eisenhower called them the military-industrial complex. Historian Carrol Quigley framed them as international finance. Others have characterized them as some kind of blood-linked secret society. I believe there is some measure of truth in all these characterizations.

[Mister D]

I don't really subscribe to the concept of evil. They have done some horrific, inhumane and criminal things, of course. The US government, like many governments, is influenced by money.
Wait...Putin is evil because kills political opponents, right? The US government isn't evil even though it invades countries under false pretenses and those invasions have resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths?

[Common Sense]

How can you fault people for getting this impression when you keep using terms like "grand conspiracy" to describe what seems pretty obvious?
Because what Ethereal described is a "grand conspiracy".

With regards to the Benghazi hearings he said...


Clinton is part of the establishment, protected. It doesn't matter how corrupt or criminal her behavior is, she will get away with it.

Conversely, Trump's relationship with the establishment is ambivalent at best. In their eyes, only complete subservience will be tolerated and Trump's early defiance has marked him for destruction, just like all the other political leaders who defied the establishment.

manufacturing the outcomes of seven different investigations is a pretty big conspiracy, not to mention the fact that he claims there are a small group of evil people who are pulling all the strings. Seems like a grand conspiracy to me.

[Common Sense]

Wait...Putin is evil because kills political opponents, right? The US government isn't evil even though it invades countries under false pretenses and those invasions have resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths?
I don't think Putin is evil, nor have I ever claimed he was.

[Mister D]

I'm sorry but if you are going to criticize leaders like Putin but not Western governments you have to develop a more coherent perspective.

[Mister D]

I don't think Putin is evil, nor have I ever claimed he was.
You've had a lot to say about Putin. A lot less about Western governments. Don't be coy now.

[Ethereal]

Sorry, I just don't buy it. It sounds silly. There are a bunch of evil people pulling all the strings. It's simplistic and naive. Reality is far more complex than that.
It's no different than what America's founding fathers were saying during the American revolution. And we're not talking about "reality" as a generalized concept. We're talking about political hierarchies. They need not be overly "complex".

[Common Sense]

They control the things that matter most in society, to include covering up the crimes and deviance of their allies and cronies.

As for precise numbers, I cannot answer that. It's not one discrete group, but multiple groups whose interests converge more often than they diverge. Eisenhower called them the military-industrial complex. Historian Carrol Quigley framed them as international finance. Others have characterized them as some kind of blood-linked secret society. I believe there is some measure of truth in all these characterizations.
A lot of other people claim it's the Jews. There have been lots of theories. To me it's reminiscent of the boogeyman. Probably fiction.

[del]

A lot of other people claim it's the Jews. There have been lots of theories. To me it's reminiscent of the boogeyman. Probably fiction.

it's mostly the illuminati and the trilateral commission

and the masons

[Ethereal]

I don't really subscribe to the concept of evil.

So your objection is essentially semantic in nature? How else would you characterize people who lie, start wars, and kill innocents?

[Common Sense]

You've had a lot to say about Putin. A lot less about Western governments. Don't be coy now.
Yes, I have been critical of Putin.

Yes, I believe western governments are superior to Putin's apparent despotism and politically oppressive regime. Let me know when the Dems or Reps start jailing their political rivals and journalists.

[del]

So your objection is essentially semantic in nature? How else would you characterize people who lie, start wars, and kill innocents?
human

[Common Sense]

So your objection is essentially semantic in nature? How else would you characterize people who lie, start wars, and kill innocents?
You make it sound as if they get pleasure in killing and acting "evil".

I'd say since war and power struggles have been going on for eons, I'd call them humans.

[Ethereal]

Because what Ethereal described is a "grand conspiracy".

With regards to the Benghazi hearings he said...



manufacturing the outcomes of seven different investigations is a pretty big conspiracy, not to mention the fact that he claims there are a small group of evil people who are pulling all the strings. Seems like a grand conspiracy to me.
You're fixating on semantics to the detriment of substance.

What matters is not how "grand" a conspiracy is, but that it exists in the first place. And it's pretty god damn obvious that powerful people are exerting influence in order to promote secretive agendas that harm lots of people.

[Common Sense]

human

Jinks...I guess we're both in on it. ;)

We can discuss it at the meeting on Monday in Bern.

[del]

Jinks...I guess we're both in on it. ;)

We can discuss it at the meeting on Monday in Bern.

you're skipping bohemian grove this year?

the koch bros will be disappointed

[Ethereal]

A lot of other people claim it's the Jews. There have been lots of theories. To me it's reminiscent of the boogeyman. Probably fiction.
So because some people have the details wrong, that means the overarching concept must be fiction?

[Ethereal]

it's mostly the illuminati and the trilateral commission

and the masons

It doesn't really matter what you call them. They exist and they are hurting lots of people.

[Common Sense]

You're fixating on semantics to the detriment of substance.

What matters is not how "grand" a conspiracy is, but that it exists in the first place. And it's pretty god damn obvious that powerful people are exerting influence in order to promote secretive agendas that harm lots of people.

...and yet here we are talking about it freely on the internet. We live in a time that is the most advanced and safe in the history of the planet. This is virtually the most peaceful and prosperous times in the history of man.

[Ethereal]

Yes, I have been critical of Putin.

Yes, I believe western governments are superior to Putin's apparent despotism and politically oppressive regime. Let me know when the Dems or Reps start jailing their political rivals and journalists.
According to one of Nixon's closest aids, the war on drugs was designed to do precisely that.

[Mister D]

Yes, I have been critical of Putin.

Yes, I believe western governments are superior to Putin's apparent despotism and politically oppressive regime. Let me know when the Dems or Reps start jailing their political rivals and journalists.

Ah, I see. It's "superior" to invade countries under false pretenses and cause widespread death and mayhem. Just make sure you don't harass, jail or kill political opponents. Gotcha.

[Common Sense]

So because some people have the details wrong, that means the overarching concept must be fiction?
Must be? No. Probably is, yes.

[Ethereal]

human
Except most humans don't behave that way. That's why a more specific qualifier is needed to describe them.

[Mister D]

According to one of Nixon's closest aids, the war on drugs was designed to do precisely that.
If we went back and searched would we find Sense agreeing that the Drug War is a form of racist oppression?

[del]

It doesn't really matter what you call them. They exist and they are hurting lots of people.
mmmm hmmm

[del]

Except most humans don't behave that way. That's why a more specific qualifier is needed to describe them.
some humans

[Common Sense]

Ah, I see. It's "superior" to invade countries under false pretenses and cause widespread death and mayhem. Just make sure you don't harass, jail or kill political opponents. Gotcha.
Yeah, the Russians have never done that.

Don't mistake my assertion that the west is morally better that the current Russian government with the idea that the west is perfect.

[Common Sense]

If we went back and searched would we find Sense agreeing that the Drug War is a form of racist oppression?
Go for it.

[Ethereal]

You make it sound as if they get pleasure in killing and acting "evil".

Perhaps some of them do. Read a history book. You will find plenty of rulers who derived pleasure from violence.

In any case, it doesn't really matter if they enjoy it. Lying, starting wars, slaughtering innocent people, just so you can make money and acquire more power, is evil.


I'd say since war and power struggles have been going on for eons, I'd call them humans.

Yea, except most humans don't participate in that kind of behavior, let alone cause it to happen needlessly and for their own profit.

[Ethereal]

Jinks...I guess we're both in on it. ;)

We can discuss it at the meeting on Monday in Bern.

No, you two are just peons, like the rest of us.

[Ethereal]

you're skipping bohemian grove this year?

the koch bros will be disappointed

Citing the existence of a secretive gathering of power elites who engage in bizarre rituals is a strange way of challenging my position.

[Common Sense]

No, you two are just peons, like the rest of us.

Speak for yourself.

[Ethereal]

...and yet here we are talking about it freely on the internet. We live in a time that is the most advanced and safe in the history of the planet. This is virtually the most peaceful and prosperous times in the history of man.

Well, you and I can say that. I assume we're both white males who grew up in middle class communities in Anglo-Saxon nation-states. I must admit, things are pretty good for us. But that doesn't mean power elites aren't abusing and exploiting people.

[Ethereal]

If we went back and searched would we find Sense agreeing that the Drug War is a form of racist oppression?
I wouldn't be surprised.

[Hoosier8]

Well, you and I can say that. I assume we're both white males who grew up in middle class communities in Anglo-Saxon nation-states. I must admit, things are pretty good for us. But that doesn't mean power elites aren't abusing and exploiting people.

https://youtu.be/rfAvQp-Uk5I

[Ethereal]

some humans
And why is it so hard to call them evil?

[Ethereal]

Yeah, the Russians have never done that.

Not since the Soviet Union dissolved.

[Common Sense]

Well, you and I can say that. I assume we're both white males who grew up in middle class communities in Anglo-Saxon nation-states. I must admit, things are pretty good for us.
No, the entire world is better off.

Life was more violent and short for everyone in the past. There was far more in the way of subjugation and war in the past than there is now.

[Ethereal]

Speak for yourself.
You have no power to change anything on the large scale. That is just a fact. Unless you're a billionaire or a Senator and you forgot to tell us?

[Common Sense]

Not since the Soviet Union dissolved.
Really?

How about Tajikistan, Chechnya, Transnistria, Crimea, the Ukraine?

[Ethereal]

No, the entire world is better off.

In spite of the ruling class, not because of them.


Life was more violent and short for everyone in the past. There was far more in the way of subjugation and war in the past than there is now.

I'm sure that's a comforting thought. I doubt the people in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Ukraine, etc. would agree.

[Common Sense]

You have no power to change anything on the large scale. That is just a fact. Unless you're a billionaire or a Senator and you forgot to tell us?

I'm not saying I can change things, but I'm claiming I'm not a peon.

[Common Sense]

In spite of the ruling class, not because of them.



I'm sure that's a comforting thought. I doubt the people in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Ukraine, etc. would agree.
They wouldn't agree, yet it's true.

[Ethereal]

Really?

How about Tajikistan, Chechnya, Transnistria, Crimea, the Ukraine?

How many people died after Crimea joined the Russian Federation? Like zero?

Russia did not invade The Ukraine. Eastern separatists rebelled against the illegitimate government in Kiev. Big difference.

Not sure what the other references are about. Chechnya is technically part of Russia and the other two don't seem very significant as I've never ever heard of such campaigns. Was there much death and chaos in Transnistria?

[The Xl]

The world being better now has zero to do with the ruling class.