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ripmeister
07-02-2017, 10:44 PM
"The founding fathers tried to protect us from the threat they knew, the tyranny that overcame ancient democracy"

Many here at tPF have raised the issue of tyranny in our political system. Some from the left and some from the right albeit citing different sources. The above quote is from "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder, a short pocket sized review putting forth twenty lessons from the 20th century. Regardless of whether you see the prospect of tyranny coming from the left or the right this is a good read, reminding us that those who don't know their history fail to take important instruction from said history. Unfortunately the history of modern democracy has been decline and fall. Snyder puts forth some actions that we as individuals can take to try and prevent this.

Dr. Who
07-02-2017, 11:18 PM
Not having a copy of the book, I read a number of interviews with Snyder. I was taken with this quote:

So this is a book for all Americans. It is, though, as you suggest quite rightly, slightly more a book for the young because what I fear we've done in this country is raise a generation of young people under the slogan that history was over, that things are basically going in the right direction and always will. And now many of those young people have been delivered a shock. And the danger is that having been shocked they will switch from thinking, oh, well, everything's going to be fine to everything's not going to be fine and not realize that history is precisely about what you yourself can do. People in their 20s have a chance to be a historical generation. I hope they take it.
http://www.npr.org/2017/03/06/518858371/on-tyranny-explores-new-threats-facing-american-political-system

Kalkin
07-02-2017, 11:22 PM
http://hypercivilosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/The-Cycle-of-Society.jpg

Captain Obvious
07-02-2017, 11:24 PM
http://hypercivilosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/The-Cycle-of-Society.jpg

I might suggest that we're somewhere between greed and moral decline and complacency.

Dr. Who
07-02-2017, 11:35 PM
I might suggest that we're somewhere between greed and moral decline and complacency.

The trick is to recognize bondage and tyranny when it's happening. Snyder, who is a major student of European history - he reads 10 languages and speaks five, parallels voter attitudes in the rise of the Nazi state to the current American political reality.

Captain Obvious
07-02-2017, 11:37 PM
The trick is to recognize bondage and tyranny when it's happening. Snyder, who is a major student of European history - he reads 10 languages and speaks five, parallels voter attitudes in the rise of the Nazi state to the current American political reality.

I would suggest a symptom of "bondage" is what we are seeing now with the federal forcing of dependence on states and citizens with entitlements, laws, regulations, etc.

ripmeister
07-02-2017, 11:39 PM
The author states that we are no wiser today than the Europeans who saw democracy yield to fascism, Nazism, or communism in the twentieth century. The first of the twenty lessons is "Do not obey in advance" where he states in the opening that "Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. As I said this is a pocket sized book that can be read in an hour. Regardless of ones point of view I think it contains some valuable ideas toward the maintenance of our democracy and each of ours responsibility toward that.

ripmeister
07-02-2017, 11:43 PM
I might suggest that we're somewhere between greed and moral decline and complacency.

Interesting. I would look to the opposite side and say slightly below stability and prosperity. Although, I see complacency and apathy as being a problem as well.

Kalkin
07-02-2017, 11:43 PM
The trick is to recognize bondage and tyranny when it's happening. Snyder, who is a major student of European history - he reads 10 languages and speaks five, parallels voter attitudes in the rise of the Nazi state to the current American political reality.

Well, he must be right if he speaks five languages...

Captain Obvious
07-02-2017, 11:49 PM
Interesting. I would look to the opposite side and say slightly below stability and prosperity. Although, I see complacency and apathy as being a problem as well.

I don't disagree with your point and I might suggest the one flaw with the cycle graph would be our tendency to flood our country with drug runners, prostitutes and goat herders.

Ethereal
07-02-2017, 11:49 PM
Most people throughout recorded history have either been largely indifferent to tyranny or have eagerly embraced it. Liberty is a historical anomaly in that regard.

Dr. Who
07-03-2017, 12:04 AM
I would suggest a symptom of "bondage" is what we are seeing now with the federal forcing of dependence on states and citizens with entitlements, laws, regulations, etc.

However, tyranny can be seen in the steady depletion of human rights post 911. Additionally, the obvious hyperbole about one group or another was also a symptom in the rise of both fascism and communism. If you can find a scapegoat and people unthinkingly accept it, it becomes increasingly easy to deprive them of their rights in the name of security and order. Before they know it, they have willingly surrendered their rights and accept that any official can demand that they produce their papers (or ID in today's world). Paranoia about certain groups of people is a symptom of a society that is ripe for descent into totalitarianism. The other important ingredient in this process is unemployment. All of the nascent conditions necessary for the demise of democracy currently exists today, including a populist leader that marches to his own drummer and sees himself as a savior.

Dr. Who
07-03-2017, 12:10 AM
Well, he must be right if he speaks five languages...
That's only significant in that he can read all manner of material that may not be published in English and talk to other historians and record keepers who may not speak English. If you are a student of European history, where English is not the lingua franca, being a polyglot is a useful skill.

Kalkin
07-03-2017, 12:26 AM
That's only significant in that he can read all manner of material that may not be published in English and talk to other historians and record keepers who may not speak English. If you are a student of European history, where English is not the lingua franca, being a polyglot is a useful skill.

Anyone can do that with google translate.

Dr. Who
07-03-2017, 12:31 AM
Anyone can do that with google translate.
It's kind of time consuming to type everything into google translate. Much of that material only exists in books that are not online. Plus, as a person who speaks two languages, I can say that google translate has gotten better, but the translations are not perfect and sometimes really wrong.

Kalkin
07-03-2017, 12:35 AM
It's kind of time consuming to type everything into google translate.
Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.

Much of that material only exists in books that are not online. Plus, as a person who speaks two languages, I can say that google translate has gotten better, but the translations are not perfect and sometimes really wrong.
I know. I'm just monkeying with you over the subtle "appeal to authority".

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 12:38 AM
Well, he must be right if he speaks five languages...
I was hoping for a reasoned discussion here without the snark. There are plenty of other threads for that.

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 12:41 AM
Most people throughout recorded history have either been largely indifferent to tyranny or have eagerly embraced it. Liberty is a historical anomaly in that regard.

This would be a prime point of the authors, followed by how we recognize and try to avoid it.

Dr. Who
07-03-2017, 12:44 AM
Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.

I know. I'm just monkeying with you over the subtle "appeal to authority".
It wasn't an appeal to authority. It doesn't give his opinion more authority, just greater than average access to sources of information and kudos to him for having so much linguistic skill. I can see him sitting in musty libraries going over handwritten records and out of print books.

Kalkin
07-03-2017, 12:49 AM
I was hoping for a reasoned discussion here without the snark. There are plenty of other threads for that.
I was hoping for a pony for christmas. Oh well, maybe next year.

Common
07-03-2017, 03:54 AM
Im no intellect but ive read this thread with interest, In my life and ill be 70 shortly govt has never been as domineering as it is today. Every aspect from local state federal, and other branchs, the judicial etc.

We see it from both sides of politics, they ram what they want through no matter what they people want or do not want.

The partisan divide is wider and more harsh and people will defend what they know is wrong because their side said its so. How long before that kind of mindless devotion puts us all in bondage and under a thumb.

Mini Me
07-03-2017, 09:05 AM
However, tyranny can be seen in the steady depletion of human rights post 911. Additionally, the obvious hyperbole about one group or another was also a symptom in the rise of both fascism and communism. If you can find a scapegoat and people unthinkingly accept it, it becomes increasingly easy to deprive them of their rights in the name of security and order. Before they know it, they have willingly surrendered their rights and accept that any official can demand that they produce their papers (or ID in today's world). Paranoia about certain groups of people is a symptom of a society that is ripe for descent into totalitarianism. The other important ingredient in this process is unemployment. All of the nascent conditions necessary for the demise of democracy currently exists today, including a populist leader that marches to his own drummer and sees himself as a savior.

True!

All the warning signs are right there:


Nepotism
Cronyism
No respect for free press
Limiting access for free press
Desire to cozy up to rogue leaders
Use of office for self-enrichment
Use of office for personal glorification
Creating an alternate narrative of facts
Belief that one's position makes himself above the law
Purging dissenters/whistleblowers from public positions
Desire to obstruct investigations that could shed negative light on him
Subtle attempts to restrict voting rights
Creating an "us versus them" mentality amongst supporters
Blackmail

The flags of authoritarianism/autocracy are so red you can waive them at a bull.

The gasoline has been poured. God help us if they light a match.

Mini Me
07-03-2017, 09:08 AM
https://twitter.com/RaRaVibes/status/826116204301516800/photo/1

Chris
07-03-2017, 09:12 AM
The end of history was mentioned. The meaning of that, see Francis Fukuyama and others, is the world adopts democracy as the final form of government and the end of man's social and cultural history. But democracy can be tyranical. See Hans-Hermann Hoppe's Democracy: The God that Failed.

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 09:12 AM
I was hoping for a pony for christmas. Oh well, maybe next year.
Oh well.

Chris
07-03-2017, 09:24 AM
His book is derived from a facebook post he made on the election of Trump.

Here's a take on it: 20 Lessons from the 20th Century on How to Survive in Trump’s America (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america).

He talks about it in a video on Democracy Now: On Tyranny: Yale Historian Timothy Snyder on How the U.S. Can Avoid Sliding into Authoritarianism (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/5/30/on_tyranny_yale_historian_timothy_snyder).

It's part of resist Trump.

Kind of diappointing.

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 09:36 AM
His book is derived from a facebook post he made on the election of Trump.

Here's a take on it: 20 Lessons from the 20th Century on How to Survive in Trump’s America (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america).

He talks about it in a video on Democracy Now: On Tyranny: Yale Historian Timothy Snyder on How the U.S. Can Avoid Sliding into Authoritarianism (https://www.democracynow.org/2017/5/30/on_tyranny_yale_historian_timothy_snyder).

It's part of resist Trump.

Kind of diappointing.
While much of this can be applied to Trump and his MO the book is far more general than that. In fact, its not really about pointing out anything specific about Trump, rather its about what we as individuals can do to subvert any forms of tyranny from any source. What do you find disappointing? Did you actually read the book or did you just watch a video about the book?

Chris
07-03-2017, 09:42 AM
While much of this can be applied to Trump and his MO the book is far more general than that. In fact, its not really about pointing out anything specific about Trump, rather its about what we as individuals can do to subvert any forms of tyranny from any source. What do you find disappointing? Did you actually read the book or did you just watch a video about the book?

It's disappointing he's focused on Trump. Hopefully the book is more general. Obama was just as much a charismatic danger. Ever read Hayek's The Road to Serfdom?

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 10:15 AM
It's disappointing he's focused on Trump. Hopefully the book is more general. Obama was just as much a charismatic danger. Ever read Hayek's The Road to Serfdom?
The book is more general. It certainly was written in response to Trumps election but its more about our response toward the dangers of tyranny in general and how we have the power to do such. I think the lessons apply to any situation be it a left wing or a right wing concern about tyranny. I have not read the Hayek book.

Chris
07-03-2017, 10:31 AM
The book is more general. It certainly was written in response to Trumps election but its more about our response toward the dangers of tyranny in general and how we have the power to do such. I think the lessons apply to any situation be it a left wing or a right wing concern about tyranny. I have not read the Hayek book.

Haven't read this guy's book but let me explain a mix of Hayek and Hoppe the danger of democracy. In a democracy the people demand more and more of the government, to give them things, to solve their problems. The leaders of a democracy have no real stake in the long term development of the nation, but only short term reelection, so they try to meet the demands of the people. In time, as the demands grow, the leaders realize, in stages, that the legislature is too slow and power shifts to the administrative branch who hands out executive orders but leaves them to the bureaucrative state to actually solve. This results in a mess of rules and rulings and so the people look for a charsimatic leader to just make executing decision and dictate solutions. The first such was Obama but he was too divisive, and now there's Trump who is likewise divisive, so we just have to wait for a savior.

Hayek's Road also goes into detail on the German political philosophers who designed the centrally planned state, a natural for Germans, from Hegel on. They saw Hitler as a disaster but predicted the State as they envisioned it would survive the loss of WWII. It has. It dominates.

ripmeister
07-03-2017, 10:56 AM
Haven't read this guy's book but let me explain a mix of Hayek and Hoppe the danger of democracy. In a democracy the people demand more and more of the government, to give them things, to solve their problems. The leaders of a democracy have no real stake in the long term development of the nation, but only short term reelection, so they try to meet the demands of the people. In time, as the demands grow, the leaders realize, in stages, that the legislature is too slow and power shifts to the administrative branch who hands out executive orders but leaves them to the bureaucrative state to actually solve. This results in a mess of rules and rulings and so the people look for a charsimatic leader to just make executing decision and dictate solutions. The first such was Obama but he was too divisive, and now there's Trump who is likewise divisive, so we just have to wait for a savior.

Hayek's Road also goes into detail on the German political philosophers who designed the centrally planned state, a natural for Germans, from Hegel on. They saw Hitler as a disaster but predicted the State as they envisioned it would survive the loss of WWII. It has. It dominates.
Sounds interesting. Snyders book is a warning about this based on his work concerning the history of 2Oth century Europe and how people like Hitler came to power. More importantly his 20 lessons are prescriptions for how we as individuals can try and do something to avoid the same mistakes that Europe made.

Mister D
07-03-2017, 12:35 PM
That Trump is a potential dictator is just too silly to comment on but there was something of interest here.

Anyone with a background in European history should know that democracy (i.e. liberal democracy) had no roots in most of Europe. Subverting an unpopular system wasn't all that difficult. What comes across time and again with liberal democrats is this assumption that their system is the best system and everyone ought to live by it. Lets get over ourselves.

Cthulhu
07-03-2017, 01:01 PM
It's kind of time consuming to type everything into google translate. Much of that material only exists in books that are not online. Plus, as a person who speaks two languages, I can say that google translate has gotten better, but the translations are not perfect and sometimes really wrong.
Not to mention the many variations and dialects in single languages. Old form German vs current German.

Factoring in linguistic drift is another matter.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

MisterVeritis
07-03-2017, 01:27 PM
However, tyranny can be seen in the steady depletion of human rights post 911. Additionally, the obvious hyperbole about one group or another was also a symptom in the rise of both fascism and communism. If you can find a scapegoat and people unthinkingly accept it, it becomes increasingly easy to deprive them of their rights in the name of security and order. Before they know it, they have willingly surrendered their rights and accept that any official can demand that they produce their papers (or ID in today's world). Paranoia about certain groups of people is a symptom of a society that is ripe for descent into totalitarianism. The other important ingredient in this process is unemployment. All of the nascent conditions necessary for the demise of democracy currently exists today, including a populist leader that marches to his own drummer and sees himself as a savior.
(Es)cape goats are innocent. Muslims tend to be guilty.

The Xl
07-03-2017, 02:23 PM
I might suggest that we're somewhere between greed and moral decline and complacency.
We're between complacency and tyranny, imo. It's a soft form of tyranny, admittedly, but it's getting worse, and the rest of the West has it worse than us.