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View Full Version : Shia LaBeouf’s arrest will change the way you curse forever



Common
07-11-2017, 01:25 PM
He gets arrested and accuses the Cop of being racist for arresting another white man. Curses out the cops and rants about Trump. This is classic democrat lol

http://pagesix.com/2017/07/11/see-shia-labeoufs-curse-filled-georgia-arrest/

Kalkin
07-11-2017, 01:29 PM
Shia LeDouche.

texan
07-11-2017, 03:00 PM
What a loudmouth drunk.

Tahuyaman
07-11-2017, 03:05 PM
I never heard of the guy until someone brought him up here, but evidently he's achieved some level of fame with a certain group of people.

Obviously fame and financial success doesn't change a dumb-ass.

Trish
07-11-2017, 05:21 PM
With the number of incidences this young man has had involving alcohol it seems like he probably has a drinking problem. I feel bad for him and hope he realizes he has a disease so he will seek help.

Ransom
07-11-2017, 05:48 PM
With the number of incidences this young man has had involving alcohol it seems like he probably has a drinking problem. I feel bad for him and hope he realizes he has a disease so he will seek help.

I had tried to tell people what the catalyst was. It's been like that for so many others. If you're a drinker, you go get real real drunk. If you were hysterical, then today you're flat out insane. The election of Donald Trump was that catalyst. For so may. Shia's rant here mentions the President, you can hear his anger.

I will hope and pray he receives help....but I'm getting a tad backlogged on liberal souls I have to pray for. In Mass, our Priest gives you a moment of silence on your own. Head down....deep in thought.....I start with my list of gone over the f'n edge Liberals.....and the Priest says "let us pray" before I'm done with all the people I've got on the list so you know what....I change my mind. This drunk belligerent millionaire obviously has enough people who care about him, I frankly don't have the time.

Kalkin
07-11-2017, 06:51 PM
With the number of incidences this young man has had involving alcohol it seems like he probably has a drinking problem. I feel bad for him and hope he realizes he has a disease so he will seek help.

I don't feel bad for him at all. Spoiled actor ingests too much booze and makes a jackass of himself. Repeatedly.

Hal Jordan
07-11-2017, 07:11 PM
Nope, still going to curse the same way. Doesn't change it a bit.

Trish
07-11-2017, 07:45 PM
I don't feel bad for him at all. Spoiled actor ingests too much booze and makes a jackass of himself. Repeatedly.
Alcoholism is a disease which many people can be predisposed to because of their genetics. I imagine living in a public bubble would provoke lots of people to be jackasses. I feel bad for anyone who is dealing with a condition or disease in which they are helpless to beat or control.

Ethereal
07-11-2017, 07:49 PM
Alcoholism is a disease...

Debatable.

I would argue it's a form of self-medication or a symptom of a disease, not a disease in and of itself.

Mister D
07-11-2017, 07:53 PM
Debatable.

I would argue it's a form of self-medication or a symptom of a disease, not a disease in and of itself.
Agreed. The disease paradigm has outlived its usefulness.

Trish
07-11-2017, 07:57 PM
Debatable.
I would argue it's a form of self-medication or a symptom of a disease, not a disease in and of itself.

It's not debatable for those of us who believe in science. I'm not claiming that everyone who is predisposed will become an alcoholic but their chances are much higher than someone who doesn't have this gene.

Here's a link to an NIH facts sheet on AUD.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

resister
07-11-2017, 07:58 PM
I feel bad for anyone who is dealing with a condition or disease in which they are helpless to beat or control. Disagree, that is one of the biggest cop outs that prevents recovery. If a person believes this in their heart, they do two things, they pity theirself and justify further use.

Believing that in your heart gives your own power away to a lie. Have you ever had to recover Trish? I have, I had a raging 2 year IV meth habit. When I got fed up with it, I quit cold turkey, had one relapse a week into it and said i'm done with this. It is coming up on 4 years clean and the thought of going back to that vomit, sickens me.

So long as you have free will, you never powerless.

Kalkin
07-11-2017, 07:59 PM
Alcoholism is a disease which many people can be predisposed to because of their genetics. I imagine living in a public bubble would provoke lots of people to be jackasses. I feel bad for anyone who is dealing with a condition or disease in which they are helpless to beat or control.
No one becomes an alcoholic until they choose to repeatedly fill a glass with booze and drink it. I feel no more pity for them than I do a coke addict or meth head.

Mister D
07-11-2017, 08:00 PM
It's not debatable for those of us who believe in science. I'm not claiming that everyone who is predisposed will become an alcoholic but their chances are much higher than someone who doesn't have this gene.

Here's a link to an NIH facts sheet on AUD.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

He doesn't doubt one's genes may predispose one to alcoholism. Our genes predispose us to a great variety of behaviors. He's criticizing the disease paradigm, science believer.

Trish
07-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Disagree, that is one of the biggest cop outs that prevents recovery. If a person believes this in their heart, they do two things, they pity theirself and justify further use.

Believing that in your heart gives your own power away to a lie. Have you ever had to recover Trish? I have, I had a raging 2 year IV meth habit. When I got fed up with it, I quit cold turkey, had one relapse a week into it and said i'm done with this. It is coming up on 4 years clean and the thought of going back to that vomit, sickens me.

So long as you have free will, you never powerless.
Yes, I am in recovery and I resent that you would call me out and force me to reveal this about myself in order to give my dispute equal weight. You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe that an individual will not recover until they are ready otherwise freewill means shit. There is a honor pledge that addicts make to each other or have you forgotten.

resister
07-11-2017, 08:10 PM
Yes, I am in recovery and I resent that you would call me out and force me to reveal this about myself in order to give my dispute equal weight. You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe that an individual will not recover until they are ready otherwise freewill means shit.
My bad, I wish you well. My advice is to never, ever believe you are powerless. Doing so creates that reality. If you plant the seed...

Why give your power away to a belief that a simple substance is stronger than you. The substance has only the power it is given.

In my case a simple evaluation was a big help. I asked myself what I wanted in life and if this thing was helping. Then I asked where this thing would lead me, in my case, poverty, dependence and or prison/death.

Had enough prison in my life, not ready to die. The time to change was at hand, I took my power and did so.

Ethereal
07-11-2017, 08:14 PM
It's not debatable for those of us who believe in science.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to know where to begin.

First of all, to categorize my difference of opinion as a rejection of science is, frankly, pretty presumptuous and slightly insulting. I place a great deal of value on science.

Secondly, everything in science is debatable. There are no dogmas or orthodoxies in science. Everything is subject to reevaluation and open to questioning, including the definition and classification of various diseases.


I'm not claiming that everyone who is predisposed will become an alcoholic but their chances are much higher than someone who doesn't have this gene.

Here's a link to an NIH facts sheet on AUD.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders

The fact that genes leave us predisposed towards certain behavioral patterns does not necessarily imply that said patterns are diseases. For example, scientists have found a link between violent crime and genes (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29760212), yet nobody would argue that violent criminal behavior is a "disease", would they?

Mister D
07-11-2017, 08:16 PM
There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to know where to begin.

First of all, to categorize my difference of opinion as a rejection of science is, frankly, pretty presumptuous and slightly insulting. I place a great deal of value on science.

Secondly, everything in science is debatable. There are no dogmas or orthodoxies in science. Everything is subject to reevaluation and open to questioning, including the definition and classification of various diseases.



The fact that genes leave us predisposed towards certain behavioral patterns does not necessarily imply that said patterns are diseases. For example, scientists have found a link between violent crime and genes (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29760212), yet nobody would argue that violent criminal behavior is a "disease", would they?

I was going to mention the proposed genetic predisposition to crime but tipping one sacred cow is enough for this evening.

Trish
07-11-2017, 08:29 PM
There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to know where to begin.First of all, to categorize my difference of opinion as a rejection of science is, frankly, pretty presumptuous and slightly insulting. I place a great deal of value on science.
Secondly, everything in science is debatable. There are no dogmas or orthodoxies in science. Everything is subject to reevaluation and open to questioning, including the definition and classification of various diseases.The fact that genes leave us predisposed towards certain behavioral patterns does not necessarily imply that said patterns are diseases. For example, scientists have found a link between violent crime and genes (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29760212), yet nobody would argue that violent criminal behavior is a "disease", would they?
You're right, I don't know you so it was presumptuous to imply you don't value science. I apologize.

I agree, science is always evolving. My impression from your earlier statement was that you don't believe there is a basic connection between alcoholism and genetics.

Alcoholism used to be considered a mental health issue not a disease so it's possible that violence carrying on in families may be reclassified in the future.

donttread
07-12-2017, 07:06 AM
He gets arrested and accuses the Cop of being racist for arresting another white man. Curses out the cops and rants about Trump. This is classic democrat lol

http://pagesix.com/2017/07/11/see-shia-labeoufs-curse-filled-georgia-arrest/

Yet another shining example of why you should't pimp your kids out to TV and movies as child stars.

Common
07-12-2017, 07:11 AM
Nope, still going to curse the same way. Doesn't change it a bit.
heh me too, im not changing a thing

Common
07-12-2017, 07:13 AM
Yes, I am in recovery and I resent that you would call me out and force me to reveal this about myself in order to give my dispute equal weight. You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe that an individual will not recover until they are ready otherwise freewill means shit. There is a honor pledge that addicts make to each other or have you forgotten.
Not to worry Trish that doesnt matter to people that know you to be a wonderful person :)

Common
07-12-2017, 07:15 AM
Agreed. The disease paradigm has outlived its usefulness.
People mix up being a drunk with being an alcoholic. Alcoholics cant stop drinking knowing they are going to die. Ive had friends who had sirosis told drink one more shot and you will die and they drank.

I do believe its a mental disorder. I understand ethereals statement that its a bandaid for another illness and you can explain it both ways. He has mental issues so he drinks, or his mental issue is drinking.

Bo-4
07-12-2017, 09:08 AM
Liberals behaving badly again?

Your job here is done for the day! :D

donttread
07-12-2017, 05:34 PM
No one becomes an alcoholic until they choose to repeatedly fill a glass with booze and drink it. I feel no more pity for them than I do a coke addict or meth head.


The alcoholic only chooses the first glass. "First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. Same with drug addiction and what is needed is empathy not sympathy.
Compare it to a type two DM who doesn't follow his diet. Or someone with CHF who won't give up salt. Post like yours amuse and disturb me at the same time .
Hell the major thing our healthcare system does is treat the ravages of lifestyle. Is your lifestyle perfect?

donttread
07-12-2017, 05:38 PM
Yes, I am in recovery and I resent that you would call me out and force me to reveal this about myself in order to give my dispute equal weight. You have your opinion and I have mine. I believe that an individual will not recover until they are ready otherwise freewill means shit. There is a honor pledge that addicts make to each other or have you forgotten.


I am recovering as well and I don't care who knows. But then again it's been a long time. Yes, the addict has to be ready but we can help get them ready sooner. Are you familiar with Motivational Interviewing? That's all that's about, helping people get ready to change in stage.

donttread
07-12-2017, 05:39 PM
Not to worry Trish that doesnt matter to people that know you to be a wonderful person :)


Of course it doesn't. It shouldn't matter anymore than if she was a type two diabetic.

resister
07-12-2017, 05:41 PM
I do not cotton to the disease model because it fosters the belief in powerlessness and the subsequent self pity and further use.

Kalkin
07-12-2017, 05:47 PM
The alcoholic only chooses the first glass. "First the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. Same with drug addiction and what is needed is empathy not sympathy.
No, the man chooses every drink. Drinks are unintelligent, inanimate objects.

Compare it to a type two DM who doesn't follow his diet. Or someone with CHF who won't give up salt.
Those are also choices made by the man, not the substance.

Post like yours amuse and disturb me at the same time .Interesting.

Hell the major thing our healthcare system does is treat the ravages of lifestyle. Is your lifestyle perfect?
Define the perfect lifestyle and I'll let you know.

donttread
07-12-2017, 06:13 PM
I do not cotton to the disease model because it fosters the belief in powerlessness and the subsequent self pity and further use.

That's not what powerlessness means although it certainly sounds like it.
Today I can choose not to pick up a drink, but I would soon become powerless to NOT pick up the 2nd or 3rd. Tough concept I'll admitt and perhaps taken too far by some.

donttread
07-12-2017, 06:17 PM
No, the man chooses every drink. Drinks are unintelligent, inanimate objects.

Those are also choices made by the man, not the substance.
Interesting.

Define the perfect lifestyle and I'll let you know.

Science , even brain chemistry tends to prove you wrong, but don't worry about little things like that . When someone doesn't understand addiction it's pointless to continue to agrue with them so I won't continue to argue with you.

Kalkin
07-12-2017, 06:31 PM
Science , even brain chemistry tends to prove you wrong, but don't worry about little things like that . When someone doesn't understand addiction it's pointless to continue to agrue with them so I won't continue to argue with you.
You choose to drink. Just because it's a hard choice does not negate that fact.

resister
07-12-2017, 07:58 PM
That's not what powerlessness means although it certainly sounds like it.
Today I can choose not to pick up a drink, but I would soon become powerless to NOT pick up the 2nd or 3rd. Tough concept I'll admitt and perhaps taken too far by some.
I choose every drink, every form of drug I ever chose to ingest. If the disease model were true, how did I have a raging 2 year IV crank habit and just up and quit about 4 years ago? No rehab, no therapy whatsoever? I tell you how, I evaluated my life and made up my mind what I chose to accept as my future.

Not saying my way is the only way either, just saying how I got over it, I still drink beer and I am OK with it, asides from pissing away $ it causes no problems in my life.

Mister D
07-12-2017, 08:11 PM
People mix up being a drunk with being an alcoholic. Alcoholics cant stop drinking knowing they are going to die. Ive had friends who had sirosis told drink one more shot and you will die and they drank.

I do believe its a mental disorder. I understand ethereals statement that its a bandaid for another illness and you can explain it both ways. He has mental issues so he drinks, or his mental issue is drinking.
Really? Who does that? Anyway, the alcoholics who cant stop drinking have abused alcohol for a very long time. The reason they can't stop drinking is that their bodies have come to depend on it. That has nothing to do with disease nor does their addiction to alcohol in the first place. The disease paradigm was created to shield recovering addicts from the social stigma. Now we're doing the same thing with fat people. Oh, I have a glandular problem!

Mister D
07-12-2017, 08:12 PM
Liberals behaving badly again?

Your job here is done for the day! :D
This one lacks self-awareness.

Ransom
07-12-2017, 08:16 PM
I remember him crying "he will not divide us? while circling in a drunken or drug induced trip during the inauguration.

Seeing this video.....cursing from behind a police screen....from a police car. Looks fairly isolated to me. Looks.......divided.

:biglaugh:

Trump licks his right index finger, draws yet another victim line on the wall. So many in here already dried saliva marks on that wall. How many meltdowns will this man be responsible for. Mika. Madonna. Shia. Katy. I heard Lady Gaga was crying.

I mean......classic stuff. Stars promising to move to Canada.

donttread
07-13-2017, 07:29 AM
I choose every drink, every form of drug I ever chose to ingest. If the disease model were true, how did I have a raging 2 year IV crank habit and just up and quit about 4 years ago? No rehab, no therapy whatsoever? I tell you how, I evaluated my life and made up my mind what I chose to accept as my future.

Not saying my way is the only way either, just saying how I got over it, I still drink beer and I am OK with it, asides from pissing away $ it causes no problems in my life.


Because you chose not to take the FIRST dose as I said.
If it was all choice alcoholics would become social drinkers right and left and that ain't happening is it? They tend to drink alcoholically or not at all. Your choice theory doesn't explain that.

Trish
07-13-2017, 07:43 AM
Because you chose not to take the FIRST dose as I said.
If it was all choice alcoholics would become social drinkers right and left and that ain't happening is it? They tend to drink alcoholically or not at all. Your choice theory doesn't explain that.
What I've found is that those in recovery are generally the most critical. They apply their success against those who haven't been successful and aren't able to understand why others aren't able to control it like they can. Everyone is different and some people have more self control. Sometimes an addicts worst critic is another addict.

Standing Wolf
07-13-2017, 08:16 AM
The disease paradigm was created to shield recovering addicts from the social stigma.

I have to agree. I tend to believe that most people, regardless of how closely they wish to toe the PC line publicly, also agree.

Nelsan Ellis, the amazingly talented actor who played MLK Jr. in The Butler, Lafayette on True Blood and Shinwell Johnson on Elementary, died a few days ago from complications arising from his attempts to withdraw from alcohol addiction. He was 39 years old, and had a family and the brightest of professional futures ahead of him. It makes me very angry when anyone throws his or her life away, while at the same time hurting others, by self-medicating their personal issues and demons - but in the end it's just a series of very bad choices.

donttread
07-13-2017, 02:11 PM
What I've found is that those in recovery are generally the most critical. They apply their success against those who haven't been successful and aren't able to understand why others aren't able to control it like they can. Everyone is different and some people have more self control. Sometimes an addicts worst critic is another addict.

What do you mean by control Trish? I'm old school and feel once you've crossed the line total abstinence is the only answer. Real world evidence tends to bear this out , especially with drugs like alcohol and tobacco. Heroin cravings may now be treated for life with medication , which I originally opposed , but real world evidence shows that it works for many. If you mean control the urge to take that first drink, I was taught not to take too much credit for that myself . I am one of the lucky ones. That doesn't mean it was easy to do my part but I was not alone in my struggle. And I always tried to be there for people no matter how many times they relapsed and came back. The true defeat , the death sentence is not coming back.

donttread
07-13-2017, 02:14 PM
I have to agree. I tend to believe that most people, regardless of how closely they wish to toe the PC line publicly, also agree.

Nelsan Ellis, the amazingly talented actor who played MLK Jr. in The Butler, Lafayette on True Blood and Shinwell Johnson on Elementary, died a few days ago from complications arising from his attempts to withdraw from alcohol addiction. He was 39 years old, and had a family and the brightest of professional futures ahead of him. It makes me very angry when anyone throws his or her life away, while at the same time hurting others, by self-medicating their personal issues and demons - but in the end it's just a series of very bad choices.
If you and "D" are correct and addiction is not a disease then alcoholics should commonly become social drinkers and that not happening and never has happened in any numbers at all. . How does your "choice " theory explain that?
Do you see type two diabetes as a disease?

Standing Wolf
07-13-2017, 02:31 PM
If you and "D" are correct and addiction is not a disease then alcoholics should commonly become social drinkers and that not happening and never has happened in any numbers at all. . How does your "choice " theory explain that?

Many people - and I am assuming from your question, and from your previous post, that you are one of them - argue that an alcoholic can never take a single drink...can never, in other words, become a "social drinker". These people "support" that view by a process of dismissing any self-identified alcoholic who has become a social drinker as not being, and never having been, an alcoholic. In other words, they deal with the exceptions by refusing to acknowledge their existence.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 02:41 PM
Many people - and I am assuming from your question, and from your previous post, that you are one of them - argue that an alcoholic can never take a single drink...can never, in other words, become a "social drinker". These people "support" that view by a process of dismissing any self-identified alcoholic who has become a social drinker as not being, and never having been, an alcoholic. In other words, they deal with the exceptions by refusing to acknowledge their existence.
Yes, he does do that. I once told him how I quit smoking but I also told him a enjoy chewing tobacco a couple times a week so I'm still an "addict".

donttread
07-13-2017, 03:41 PM
Many people - and I am assuming from your question, and from your previous post, that you are one of them - argue that an alcoholic can never take a single drink...can never, in other words, become a "social drinker". These people "support" that view by a process of dismissing any self-identified alcoholic who has become a social drinker as not being, and never having been, an alcoholic. In other words, they deal with the exceptions by refusing to acknowledge their existence.


OK. We'll go with George Valient's study saying 7% ( mostly less advanced alcoholics) ould return to social drinking. But if this not a disease and simple choice as youu propose that number should be much, much, much higher. So it's a great point, but I think my arguement remains valid.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 03:46 PM
OK. We'll go with George Valient's study saying 7% ( mostly less advanced alcoholics) ould return to social drinking. But if this not a disease and simple choice as youu propose that number should be much, much, much higher. So it's a great point, but I think my arguement remains valid.
It's not a simple choice. It's many choices. It's a pattern of behavior that at some point becomes difficult to stop. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, man.

donttread
07-13-2017, 03:51 PM
Yes, he does do that. I once told him how I quit smoking but I also told him a enjoy chewing tobacco a couple times a week so I'm still an "addict".

OK, lets assume you aren't an addict. You simple use a substance with almost no redeeming value just because twice a week. Again it doesn't change my argument. I'm not saying daily smokers NEVER become occasional users , simply that it is very much the exception not the rule.If it was a choice issue it should be common, right?
Also with tobacco we know that using tobacco changes your brain in that more receptor sites which accept nicotine are developed. When you quit some of the extra sites disappear but not all of them. . Setting most former smokers to smoke addictively if they return to smoking. In fact addiction is the major reason people smoke.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 03:58 PM
OK, lets assume you aren't an addict. You simple use a substance with almost no redeeming value just because twice a week. Again it doesn't change my argument. I'm not saying daily smokers NEVER become occasional users , simply that it is very much the exception not the rule.If it was a choice issue it should be common, right?
Also with tobacco we know that using tobacco changes your brain in that more receptor sites which accept nicotine are developed. When you quit some of the extra sites disappear but not all of them. . Setting most former smokers to smoke addictively if they return to smoking. In fact addiction is the major reason people smoke.
donttread, unlike you, I'm honestly not going to lose sleep over what veritable strangers think of my habits. I enjoy drinking beer and I like to chew tobacco on the weekend. This is something ex-addicts simply cannot wrap their minds around but whatever. Your argument, such as it is, is something you are using to convince yourself.

Tobacco use, like alcohol use, is always a choice. We're not born craving either.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 03:58 PM
Honestly, ex-addicts are almost as annoying as teetotalers and moralizers.

Standing Wolf
07-13-2017, 03:59 PM
OK. We'll go with George Valient's study saying 7% ( mostly less advanced alcoholics) ould return to social drinking. But if this not a disease and simple choice as youu propose that number should be much, much, much higher. So it's a great point, but I think my arguement remains valid.

Why do you assume that the number should be "much, much, much higher" if personal choice is the primary factor in determining whether someone keeps drinking to excess or ceases to do so? You've expressed your belief that that low number lends support to your argument, but failed to explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

Let me ask you this, then - and I am not attacking anyone's religious faith by proffering the question: If alcoholism is a disease, and - as we are frequently told - it is belief in a higher power that allows so many to avoid the deleterious effects of that disease, why is alcoholism the only disease where that works? Why, for example, are those suffering from cancer not able to place themselves in a state of remission by maintaining faith in a higher power?

donttread
07-13-2017, 04:21 PM
It's not a simple choice. It's many choices. It's a pattern of behavior that at some point becomes difficult to stop. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, man.

So why are so few able to make that series of choices , even after life changes and long periods of abstinence. Science supports the disease model

donttread
07-13-2017, 04:31 PM
Why do you assume that the number should be "much, much, much higher" if personal choice is the primary factor in determining whether someone keeps drinking to excess or ceases to do so? You've expressed your belief that that low number lends support to your argument, but failed to explain how you arrive at that conclusion.

Let me ask you this, then - and I am not attacking anyone's religious faith by proffering the question: If alcoholism is a disease, and - as we are frequently told - it is belief in a higher power that allows so many to avoid the deleterious effects of that disease, why is alcoholism the only disease where that works? Why, for example, are those suffering from cancer not able to place themselves in a state of remission by maintaining faith in a higher power?


Many recoverig people use a higher power for strength but still make changes through taking action. Is type two diabetes somehow not a disease because it involves behaviors? "Or because it remits, relapses and kills differently than cancer? . All disesaes are different. Herpes, alcoholism, cancer , etc.
But many of our modern day diseases have a behavioral compoment. That does not mean that they are therefore not diseases.
In fact our healthcare system is more burdened by lifestyle related illness than by bacteria and viruses. Type two Diabetes, CHF, CAD, COPD , Stroke, MI to name a few.

Trish
07-13-2017, 05:00 PM
We're not born craving either.

You're wrong. There are many babies born with cravings.

donttread
07-13-2017, 05:06 PM
You're wrong. There are many babies born with cravings.


Excellent point. But science is seldom allowed into our debates on this board. In the end I think we all agree that by far the best path for an alcoholic is total abstinence one day at a time.

donttread
07-13-2017, 05:09 PM
donttread, unlike you, I'm honestly not going to lose sleep over what veritable strangers think of my habits. I enjoy drinking beer and I like to chew tobacco on the weekend. This is something ex-addicts simply cannot wrap their minds around but whatever. Your argument, such as it is, is something you are using to convince yourself.

Tobacco use, like alcohol use, is always a choice. We're not born craving either.

Sigh, science says you're wrong but whatever. We each live our own way. BTW, I didn't invent the disease concept. Others did then backed it up with real world evidence.
As for your relationship with alcohol and tobacco that is totally your business.

donttread
07-13-2017, 05:11 PM
Honestly, ex-addicts are almost as annoying as teetotalers and moralizers.


I haven't been annoying, I've simply disagreed with you and used real world evidence and science to make my points. If you are truly confident in your own position what I've said should not annoy you at all.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:03 PM
Sigh, science says you're wrong but whatever. We each live our own way. BTW, I didn't invent the disease concept. Others did then backed it up with real world evidence.
As for your relationship with alcohol and tobacco that is totally your business.

lol OK Dude, whatever makes you feel better. After all, it really is about you not science.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:07 PM
You're wrong. There are many babies born with cravings.


Excellent point. But science is seldom allowed into our debates on this board. In the end I think we all agree that by far the best path for an alcoholic is total abstinence one day at a time.

Seriously? Yes, the children of crack whores are born with cravings. Did I really need to explain I was talking about normal, healthy human offspring? Good God...

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:09 PM
So why are so few able to make that series of choices , even after life changes and long periods of abstinence. Science supports the disease model

I think people do it all the time and you have been told to ignore it. You know, I am starting to wonder what goes on at those meetings addicts attend. Maybe this kind of brainwashing is good for you but it's a little creepy.

Trish
07-13-2017, 06:12 PM
Seriously? Yes, the children of crack $#@!s are born with cravings. Did I really need to explain I was talking about normal, healthy human offspring? Good God...

Yes, you really need to be clear about what you are asserting. Otherwise you will continue to receive responses that you consider silly.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:14 PM
Yes, you really need to be clear about what you are asserting. Otherwise you will continue to receive responses that you consider silly.
Quite frankly, I would think that going out of my way to point out the obvious would have been insulting. I guess not.

donttread
07-13-2017, 06:27 PM
lol OK Dude, whatever makes you feel better. After all, it really is about you not science.

You dispute addiction science?

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:30 PM
You dispute addiction science?
There is no such thing as "addiction science". Anyway, I dispute the disease paradigm. It's not useful.

donttread
07-13-2017, 06:30 PM
I think people do it all the time and you have been told to ignore it. You know, I am starting to wonder what goes on at those meetings addicts attend. Maybe this kind of brainwashing is good for you but it's a little creepy.

You "think people do it all the time" . Well then that trumps research , brain chemistry and real world evidence ! LOL . ave fun on your river in Eygpt.

donttread
07-13-2017, 06:33 PM
There is no such thing as "addiction science". Anyway, I dispute the disease paradigm. It's not useful.


WTF. There are volumes on addiction science. Do you live under a rock.? As for the disease concept Dispute away but based upon what? Anything concreate? Your wishes? A few antedotal cases? A feeling you have?
Anyway lets agree to disagree. But you calling my beliefs on the subject "self serving" is like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:35 PM
You "think people do it all the time" . Well then that trumps research , brain chemistry and real world evidence ! LOL . ave fun on your river in Eygpt.
Of course I do! I bet almost every one of us personally knows someone who quit smoking. Look, I get it. The disease paradigm was created to improve your self-esteem but it has gotten out of control. Get over yourself! lol

donttread
07-13-2017, 06:35 PM
Quite frankly, I would think that going out of my way to point out the obvious would have been insulting. I guess not.

So addicts are "whores" but active alcoholics and smokers are what "upstanding citizens who choose to be sick? I'm just trying to follow your "logic".

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:36 PM
What?

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:37 PM
WTF. There are volumes on addiction science. Do you live under a rock.? As for the disease concept Dispute away but based upon what? Anything concreate? Your wishes? A few antedotal cases? A feeling you have?
Anyway lets agree to disagree. But you calling my beliefs on the subject "self serving" is like the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
Donttread, whatever helps you sleep at night. I told you that from the start.

donttread
07-13-2017, 06:37 PM
Yes, you really need to be clear about what you are asserting. Otherwise you will continue to receive responses that you consider silly.

He has nothing to support his agrument at which point he becomes arrogant and "holier than thou". Pretty predictable after a while.

Mister D
07-13-2017, 06:40 PM
He has nothing to support his agrument at which point he becomes arrogant and "holier than thou". Pretty predictable after a while.

Are you in the same support group? lol

donttread
07-14-2017, 07:19 AM
Are you in the same support group? lol

Thanks "D" . You just provided a perfect example of what I pointed out about you in post 70. I mean you turned around and made my point for me.
To answer your question I am sober and have a good life because of that . I had tons of help and provided others with a little help along the way. But I don't know with certainty whom you are referring to , so I don't know what support group they are in.
I continue to be amazed at the lack of a scientific perspective or even review of recent past outcomes on this board. But lets just agree to disagree here. You are happy with your beliefs and your relationship with alcohol and drugs and I am happy with mine.
I think we both agree that the young actor the thread was originally about is headed for a world of hurt if he does not change his relationship with alcohol and drugs.

donttread
07-14-2017, 07:23 AM
Debatable.

I would argue it's a form of self-medication or a symptom of a disease, not a disease in and of itself.

It's both. Change the person's life and other issues after years of sobriety and they are still just as vulnerable to alcohol as they ever were. But people certainly do self medicate anxiety, depression, and many other issues. Issues some also claim are not diseases.

donttread
07-14-2017, 07:27 AM
It's not debatable for those of us who believe in science. I'm not claiming that everyone who is predisposed will become an alcoholic but their chances are much higher than someone who doesn't have this gene.

Now you've done it. You mebtioned the "S" word on a board that doesn't believe in it. LOL

Here's a link to an NIH facts sheet on AUD.
https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders/genetics-alcohol-use-disorders