White House ends ban on selling bottled water at National Parks

[Chloe]

In the latest from a death of a thousand cuts, White House sides with bottled water lobbyists to encourage plastic pollution in parks.
Six years ago the Obama administration enacted a ban on selling bottled water at National Parks. The action, Policy Memorandum 11-03, commonly referred to as the “Water Bottle Ban,” was designed to help alleviate the deleterious burden of plastic. The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/) writes:

“National parks, as premier tourist destinations, use taxpayer dollars to manage the burden of discarded plastic water bottles,” said an earlier memorandum by the Park Service’s facility management division. “Notably, this is a relatively new financial burden, with global sales of bottled water quadrupling between 1990 and 2005.”
The memo said the division’s decision was based on “the 50 billion plastic water bottles” disposed of by Americans each year and the “approximately 20 billion barrels of oil” required during production – when millions of tons of greenhouse-gas pollution are generated that contribute to global warming.
Of the 900 tons of garbage recycled by Grand Canyon National Park, 30 percent of it was estimated to be comprised of water bottles. And while only 23 of the country’s park had implemented the Obama-era policy, more were to follow and the cumulative effect was expected to be significant. Many parks now have water stations throughout specifically for refilling bottles.
But now, according to a press release from the National Parks Service (https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/08-16-2017-water-bottles.htm), the ban is kaput:


The 2011 policy, which encouraged national parks to eliminate the sale of disposable water bottles, has been rescinded to expand hydration options for recreationalists, hikers, and other visitors to national parks.
Curiously (or not) the statement sounds quite a bit like the arguments used by the International Bottled Water Association (IBWA) in their campaign against the ban.
Even more curiously (or not) the new direction came a mere three weeks after the Senate confirmation of David Bernhardt as deputy interior secretary. As The Post reports, “Bernhardt is a former lobbyist with the law firm Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck, which has represented one of the largest water bottlers in the United States...”
Critics of Bernhardt have called him a “walking conflict of interest” because of his work for corporations opposed to Interior Department regulations devoted to promoting clean air and water. “Under Trump, the Department of the Interior appears to be working hand in hand with the bottled-water industry to do its bidding,” says Lauren DeRusha Florez, who works for the non-profit group Corporate Accountability International.
I guess it’s hard to drain the swamp when it’s clogged with plastic water bottles. Even so, I wonder if we will see the parks subtly defy the policy discontinuation. "We know that many of our parks want to do away with bottled water," writes (https://www.stopcorporateabuse.org/blog/breaking-bottled-water-free-parks-under-threat-after-trump-appointment) Florez. "Let's make sure they know that we support them in that move, even if the current administration doesn't."
Via The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/)

[Chloe]

ugh

Death by a thousand cuts is right.

[Chloe]

I was never an outspoken cheerleader of Obama but he did do some good things to help alleviate pollution of our air, land, and water. There is no reason to lift this ban other than as a political favor and to try to blemish Obama. The health of our parks isn't even on his mind. Trump in this case is acting as an invasive species in a recovering ecosystem.

[Bo-4]

That's sad Chloe - if i'm going hiking in a national park i pack my own water in a reusable container. Add drinking fountains and plastic recycle bins.

The bottled water industry is largely responsible for a serious world problem, but no surprise that Trump and Pruitt would take their side.

Sad

http://blog.conservation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/plastic-pollution-haiti.jpg

http://offline.hu/files/imagecache/695width/tmp/over7_0.jpeg

http://www.plenglish.com/images/2017/junio/07/1oceanos-con-plastico.jpg

[IMPress Polly]

Chloe wrote:
Via The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/)

But that's fake news, Chloe! Where's the National Enquirer article on this subject? :wink:

[Bo-4]

But that's fake news, Chloe! Where's the National Enquirer article on this subject? :wink:

Maybe people should start dumping their empty water bottles on E Scott Pruitt's front lawn?

[resister]

I think I may try my hand at building one of these, think how light weight it would be to tow on a bike trailer!19518

[DGUtley]

I'm curious -- you guys call it a ban, but the memo said it was encouragement. Which is it? Serious question. Personally, I've moved away from bottled water b/c of this issue.

[Peter1469]

Here in DC, the people who sell bottled water on the Mall don't have a Union....

Not sure if this story is accurate.

I use Klean Canteens.

[Kalkin]

People are being allowed to purchase bottled water? The sky is falling.

[del]

I'm curious -- you guys call it a ban, but the memo said it was encouragement. Which is it? Serious question. Personally, I've moved away from bottled water b/c of this issue.

national parks were encouraged to ban it under the obama admin

fortunately, trump had the good sense to appoint a former lobbyist for the bottled water industry as deputy secretary of the interior, thereby saving the republic from the tyranny of having to drink tap water.

[Common]

Chloe I know you are going to get angry with me for saying this but when I hear people rage about plastic bottles, I have to chuckle.

You do realize our entire world is plastic, from the carpets on your floor, to your Television, your coffee pot, you mustard jar. Most small things you buy are heat sealed in plastic.

Plastic is here because its cheaper for corporations to manufacturer and deliver products and we all know whats cheaper for corps and puts more money in their pocket, they are going to do.

You will need 10 lifetimes before you have any impact on plastic and even then you may fail.

[Adelaide]

I prefer bottled water for work outs (and I re-use them sometimes) but otherwise my house uses filtered containers that you keep (until I break them by knocking them off the fridge or something - to be fair, only happened once).

I support protecting national parks... I also would encourage the government to create more of them.

[Adelaide]

Chloe I know you are going to get angry with me for saying this but when I hear people rage about plastic bottles, I have to chuckle.

You do realize our entire world is plastic, from the carpets on your floor, to your Television, your coffee pot, you mustard jar. Most small things you buy are heat sealed in plastic.

Plastic is here because its cheaper for corporations to manufacturer and deliver products and we all know whats cheaper for corps and puts more money in their pocket, they are going to do.

You will need 10 lifetimes before you have any impact on plastic and even then you may fail.

Ignoring households, should national parks be given special consideration? They're meant to be protected pockets of land. It makes sense to implement some rules to maintain them and the health of the wildlife that inhabit them.

[Common]

Ignoring households, should national parks be given special consideration? They're meant to be protected pockets of land. It makes sense to implement some rules to maintain them and the health of the wildlife that inhabit them.
Because its a pimple on a gnats ass. They sell bottled water by the MILLIONS in disneyland, in all huge amusement parks, on boardwalks. EVERYWHERE, national parks will have the least amount of usage of all of them

Instead of raging about allowing bottled water or not. How about getting people to stop buying it. That would be more effective and easier to accomplish than getting them banned or stopping Bottlers from using them

Are plastic juice bottles banned ? are plastc soda bottles banned ? No they arent and they wont be from National parks. People need to drink water even in national parks.

Its a silly fight that they will never win, take on a campaign of getting people to stop buying bottled water. I only buy one bottle of water when I go to the gym for hydration other than that I never buy them

[Bo-4]

You will need 10 lifetimes before you have any impact on plastic and even then you may fail.

Nonsense of course -

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/14/sea-to-plate-plastic-got-into-fish

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/26/opinion/choking-the-oceans-with-plastic.html

[Adelaide]

Because its a pimple on a gnats ass. They sell bottled water by the MILLIONS in disneyland, in all huge amusement parks, on boardwalks. EVERYWHERE, national parks will have the least amount of usage of all of them

Instead of raging about allowing bottled water or not. How about getting people to stop buying it. That would be more effective and easier to accomplish than getting them banned or stopping Bottlers from using them

Are plastic juice bottles banned ? are plastc soda bottles banned ? No they arent and they wont be from National parks. People need to drink water even in national parks.

Its a silly fight that they will never win, take on a campaign of getting people to stop buying bottled water. I only buy one bottle of water when I go to the gym for hydration other than that I never buy them

If you're moving through a national park you can't always find garbage cans (it's nature, and you don't necessarily stay on a popular path where there may be garbage or recycling bins). Disneyland and similar places would have so many places to properly put garbage and recycling, and likely employ the use of cans that offer the option to sort garbage, recycling glass, and recycling plastic (in public places, those are the only ones I come across). They can also employ people to pick up garbage and maintain the amusement park.

It's a different environment.

[Bo-4]

I prefer bottled water for work outs (and I re-use them sometimes) but otherwise my house uses filtered containers that you keep (until I break them by knocking them off the fridge or something - to be fair, only happened once).

I support protecting national parks... I also would encourage the government to create more of them.

I'm honestly not aware of any major metro areas who do not offer weekly or bi-weekly plastic bottle recycling pickups.

Best solution? Reverse Osmosis. It's the same way bottled water is made and eliminates 99.8% of total dissolved solids plus chlorine, chemicals and very dangerous stuff such as lead.

You can get a good one for under $300 which will produce 5 gallons of pure drinking water per day.

My annual filter and occasional membrane changes by a professional run me $50 to $100 per year.

I know families who spend five times that on their dumb bottled water and don't recycle.

Pisses me off

http://alkalinewatermachinereviews.com/reverse-osmosis-home-system/

[Green Arrow]

I'm curious -- you guys call it a ban, but the memo said it was encouragement. Which is it? Serious question. Personally, I've moved away from bottled water b/c of this issue.

"...commonly referred to as..."

[Kalkin]

If you're moving through a national park you can't always find garbage cans (it's nature, and you don't necessarily stay on a popular path where there may be garbage or recycling bins). Disneyland and similar places would have so many places to properly put garbage and recycling, and likely employ the use of cans that offer the option to sort garbage, recycling glass, and recycling plastic (in public places, those are the only ones I come across). They can also employ people to pick up garbage and maintain the amusement park.

It's a different environment.
Damn irresponsible hikers are the problem. Chloe?

[Bo-4]

Damn irresponsible hikers are the problem. Chloe?

And what did those irresponsible hikers do when Obama asked the NPs not to sell bottled water.

They brought their own damn water in canteens or in reusable plastic which they didn't leave behind.

This is all about giving the bottled water industry and their lobbyists a reach around whilst telling environmentalists to get F'd.

And of course, it's about undoing stuff Obama did (regardless of what it was). It's an obsession with Trump.

[Kalkin]

And what did those irresponsible hikers do when Obama asked the NPs not to sell bottled water.
They brought their own damn water in canteens or in reusable plastic which they didn't leave behind.
This is all about giving the bottled water industry and their lobbyists a reach around whilst telling environmentalists to get F'd.
And of course, it's about undoing stuff Obama did (regardless of what it was). It's an obsession with Trump.
Only an idiot thinks a bottle of water buys itself, walks out into the wilderness, consumes itself, and discards itself improperly. Don't be that idiot.

[Common]

The only obsession is the left hating trump which he obviously doesnt give two shits about

[Bo-4]

Only an idiot thinks a bottle of water buys itself, walks out into the wilderness, consumes itself, and discards itself improperly. Don't be that idiot.

Your "personal responsibility" thing is all grand and good - but the average Trump voter doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment.

Those are the people we must protect the planet from.

[Kalkin]

Your "personal responsibility" thing is all grand and good - but the average Trump voter doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment.

Those are the people we must protect the planet from.

Your broadbrushing exposes your bigotry. Nice job!

[Tahuyaman]

People are being allowed to purchase bottled water? The sky is falling.

And it's Trump's fault that some people can't pick up their own trash. No one ever littered prior to Trump becoming POTUS.

I guess the liberals don't believe people can buy cases of bottled water elsewhere and bring them into the parks.

[Tahuyaman]

Your "personal responsibility" thing is all grand and good - but the average Trump voter doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment.

Those are the people we must protect the planet from.

When you see a rally by conservative types, the area is left quite clean and free of trash and vandalism. When you see a rally from the left wing types, the area generally looks like a littered mess which needs a massive clean-up effort and repairs from the damage left in its wake.

[Bo-4]

Uh huh - sure Tahu :rollseyes:

Btw .. remember when several Nazi defenders insisted that some guy with a "baseball bat" attacked the Nazi's car in Charlottesville and he was afraid and trying to get away from a mob?

Not hardly - if you watch closely (go full screen) he gave the dudes rear left bumper a whap with a flag of some sort --- AS the Nazi was accelerating and driving into the crowd.

Find a new excuse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FPmojhEeE

[Peter1469]

Uh huh - sure Tahu :rollseyes:

Btw .. remember when several Nazi defenders insisted that some guy with a "baseball bat" attacked the Nazi's car in Charlottesville and he was afraid and trying to get away from a mob?

Not hardly - if you watch closely (go full screen) he gave the dudes rear bumper a whap with a flag of some sort --- AS the Nazi was accelerating and driving into the crowd.

Find a new excuse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FPmojhEeE
TDS

what does this have to do with the OP?

Can insanity be limited to TDS threads?

[Kalkin]

Uh huh - sure Tahu :rollseyes:

Btw .. remember when several Nazi defenders insisted that some guy with a "baseball bat" attacked the Nazi's car in Charlottesville and he was afraid and trying to get away from a mob?

Not hardly - if you watch closely (go full screen) he gave the dudes rear left bumper a whap with a flag of some sort --- AS the Nazi was accelerating and driving into the crowd.

Find a new excuse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FPmojhEeE

Looks like one idiot drove his car into a bunch of other idiots. I guess the lesson to be learned is don't hang out with idiots.

[IMPress Polly]

As serious an issue as it is, how about not every topic becoming Charlottesville? How would that be?

[Peter1469]

As serious an issue as it is, how about not every topic becoming Charlottesville? How would that be?

Well I started a thread about the Marines moving towards the M-27. I really hope nobody brings up C-Ville there.

[Bo-4]

Looks like one idiot drove his car into a bunch of other idiots. I guess the lesson to be learned is don't hang out with idiots.

More false equivalency?

Sad :sad:

[IMPress Polly]

Bo-4 wrote:
More false equivalency?

Sad :sad:

Aaaww, you should've written that tweet-style for a proper critique! No paragraph separation or emoticons. And preferably smaller words. (Remember: research has found that Trump communicates at a 4th grade reading level.)

Just pro tips on mockery. I trust you'll correct this over the next short period of time. :wink:

[Green Arrow]

And it's Trump's fault that some people can't pick up their own trash. No one ever littered prior to Trump becoming POTUS.

I guess the liberals don't believe people can buy cases of bottled water elsewhere and bring them into the parks.
That's not what Chloe or her OP said.

[Kalkin]

More false equivalency?

Sad :sad:
Not all idiots are equal, but they're all idiots. Be sad all you want, it won't change reality.

[Ravens Fan]

In the latest from a death of a thousand cuts, White House sides with bottled water lobbyists to encourage plastic pollution in parks.
Six years ago the Obama administration enacted a ban on selling bottled water at National Parks. The action, Policy Memorandum 11-03, commonly referred to as the “Water Bottle Ban,” was designed to help alleviate the deleterious burden of plastic. The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/) writes:

“National parks, as premier tourist destinations, use taxpayer dollars to manage the burden of discarded plastic water bottles,” said an earlier memorandum by the Park Service’s facility management division. “Notably, this is a relatively new financial burden, with global sales of bottled water quadrupling between 1990 and 2005.”
The memo said the division’s decision was based on “the 50 billion plastic water bottles” disposed of by Americans each year and the “approximately 20 billion barrels of oil” required during production – when millions of tons of greenhouse-gas pollution are generated that contribute to global warming.
Of the 900 tons of garbage recycled by Grand Canyon National Park, 30 percent of it was estimated to be comprised of water bottles. And while only 23 of the country’s park had implemented the Obama-era policy, more were to follow and the cumulative effect was expected to be significant. Many parks now have water stations throughout specifically for refilling bottles.
But now, according to a press release from the National Parks Service (https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/08-16-2017-water-bottles.htm), the ban is kaput:


The 2011 policy, which encouraged national parks to eliminate the sale of disposable water bottles, has been rescinded to expand hydration options for recreationalists, hikers, and other visitors to national parks.
Curiously (or not) the statement sounds quite a bit like the arguments used by the International Bottled Water Association (IBWA) in their campaign against the ban.
Even more curiously (or not) the new direction came a mere three weeks after the Senate confirmation of David Bernhardt as deputy interior secretary. As The Post reports, “Bernhardt is a former lobbyist with the law firm Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck, which has represented one of the largest water bottlers in the United States...”
Critics of Bernhardt have called him a “walking conflict of interest” because of his work for corporations opposed to Interior Department regulations devoted to promoting clean air and water. “Under Trump, the Department of the Interior appears to be working hand in hand with the bottled-water industry to do its bidding,” says Lauren DeRusha Florez, who works for the non-profit group Corporate Accountability International.
I guess it’s hard to drain the swamp when it’s clogged with plastic water bottles. Even so, I wonder if we will see the parks subtly defy the policy discontinuation. "We know that many of our parks want to do away with bottled water," writes (https://www.stopcorporateabuse.org/blog/breaking-bottled-water-free-parks-under-threat-after-trump-appointment) Florez. "Let's make sure they know that we support them in that move, even if the current administration doesn't."
Via The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/)

Stupid move, IMO. These parks are being preserved for a reason, and it's not so they can end up looking like a giant dumpster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ransom]

Stupid move, IMO. These parks are being preserved for a reason, and it's not so they can end up looking like a giant dumpster.

Like people don't bring water to parks with them......in cases. I'm a bit confused on your point there, don't people bring trash and what not to national parks by the tons? And throw it everywhere?

Furthermore. What say the park is named after someone who killed Indians? Or cheated on his wife?

[Ravens Fan]

Like people don't bring water to parks with them......in cases. I'm a bit confused on your point there, don't people bring trash and what not to national parks by the tons? And throw it everywhere?

Furthermore. What say the park is named after someone who killed Indians? Or cheated on his wife?

Well obviously some will still find a way to litter, but why add to it?

I am not one of those who wishes to change/ hide our history. But that is for another thread.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tahuyaman]

I was never an outspoken cheerleader of Obama but he did do some good things to help alleviate pollution of our air, land, and water. There is no reason to lift this ban other than as a political favor and to try to blemish Obama. The health of our parks isn't even on his mind. Trump in this case is acting as an invasive species in a recovering ecosystem.


That's not what Chloe or her OP said.

yes it is..... She's irrationally shrieking about Trump lifting a symbolic ban on bottled water being sold in national parks.

[Tahuyaman]

Like people don't bring water to parks with them......in cases. I'm a bit confused on your point there, don't people bring trash and what not to national parks by the tons? And throw it everywhere?

Furthermore. What say the park is named after someone who killed Indians? Or cheated on his wife?

The anger or outrage over this is pure partisan hackery. Another symptom of TDD.

[Kalkin]

Well obviously some will still find a way to litter, but why add to it?
The problem lies with the people who litter, not the availability of bottled water (which can still be brought in and left as garbage). Treating symptoms doesn't cure a disease.

[Ravens Fan]

The anger or outrage over this is pure partisan hackery. Another symptom of TDD.

He was replying to me. I'm neither angry nor outraged, I just think it was a stupid move.

And I do believe this is the first time I have been associated with TDD/TDS...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tahuyaman]

Liberals seem to support any and every ineffective symbolic gesture one can dream up. Intentions are what is important. Results are immaterial.

[Grokmaster]

More false equivalency?

Sad :sad:


There's the leftist buzzwords they think excuses the far more prevalent violence of BLM , antifa, and OWS....again.

Utter nonsense. Left violence is not "morally superior" to anyone else's, and is FAR MORE COMMON. Twits.

[Tahuyaman]

He was replying to me. I'm neither angry nor outraged, I just think it was a stupid move.

And I do believe this is the first time I have been associated with TDD/TDS...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wasnt referring to you. I was commenting on the lifting of the ban on bottled water being sold in the parks.

[Bo-4]

Not all idiots are equal, but they're all idiots. Be sad all you want, it won't change reality.

So if i had mowed down a bunch of teabaggers at one of their protests .. THEY would be idiots too?

Or are they idiots only if you disagree with the theme of their protest ...

Hmmmm @Kalkin (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=683) Grokmaster :confused:

To Chloe - my apologies for kinda derailing your thread

[Tahuyaman]

This actually could be used as another opportunity for environmentalists to show their commitment to the earth and raise awareness for their cause. They can organize groups of people to visit the parks and conduct police call in areas where other caring liberals drop their garbage.

[AeonPax]

`
I don't need to buy water. I live above an aquifer.

[resister]

When you see a rally by conservative types, the area is left quite clean and free of trash and vandalism. When you see a rally from the left wing types, the area generally looks like a littered mess which needs a massive clean-up effort and repairs from the damage left in its wake.Cannonball?

[donttread]

ugh

Death by a thousand cuts is right.

Are we talking about so called outdoors people littering or just the cost of disposing of the bittles after the users place them in a proper recsepticle? If it's the latter the sale of the water will also increase revenue.

[nic34]

But that's fake news, Chloe! Where's the National Enquirer article on this subject? :wink:

But does fake news "trump" fake history or fake science?

We all want to know!

[Tahuyaman]

But does fake news "trump" fake history or fake science?

We all want to know!

What fake history? What fake science?

[Green Arrow]

yes it is..... She's irrationally shrieking about Trump lifting a symbolic ban on bottled water being sold in national parks.
Nowhere in Chloe's post will you find her blaming Trump because people can't pick up their own trash. The ban was not symbolic. She was 100% correct that Trump's lifting of said ban was pointless.

[Kalkin]

So if i had mowed down a bunch of teabaggers at one of their protests .. THEY would be idiots too?
My own words:

I personally think all protesters are low-intellect jackasses who actually think they're making a difference by holding up stupid signs and marching around streets and parks.

[Tahuyaman]

Nowhere in Chloe's post will you find her blaming Trump because people can't pick up their own trash. The ban was not symbolic. She was 100% correct that Trump's lifting of said ban was pointless.


The ban was pointless. It did nothing but fool the easily fooled into thinking something substantial was accomplished by the annointed one.

[Green Arrow]

The ban was pointless. It did nothing but fool the easily fooled into thinking something substantial was accomplished by the annointed one.
Lifting the ban was pointless. It did nothing but fool the easily fooled into thinking something substantial was accomplished by Cheeto Jesus.

[Abby08]

I hate bottled water, because, too many people are pigs and, think nothing of throwing them out car windows and, along hiking trails...... I guess that would be the fault of the people, not the bottles.....but, I see nothing wrong with banning plastic bottles from national parks.

Obama actually did a good thing, there.....and, now I'm gonna go wash my mouth out with soap.....lol!

[Abby08]

I'm sick and tired of seeing people's trash all over the sides of the road.

In Phoenix, people hike Camelback mountain and, every day, the park rangers have to bring down several bags of trash.....mostly plastic bottles.

I tell you, people are irresponsible pigs.

[Kalkin]

Lifting the ban was pointless.
Undoing silly regulations isn't pointless.

[Chloe]

People are being allowed to purchase bottled water? The sky is falling.

People had to bring a reusable bottle. The sky is falling.

[Chloe]

Chloe I know you are going to get angry with me for saying this but when I hear people rage about plastic bottles, I have to chuckle.

You do realize our entire world is plastic, from the carpets on your floor, to your Television, your coffee pot, you mustard jar. Most small things you buy are heat sealed in plastic.

Plastic is here because its cheaper for corporations to manufacturer and deliver products and we all know whats cheaper for corps and puts more money in their pocket, they are going to do.

You will need 10 lifetimes before you have any impact on plastic and even then you may fail.
I've been fighting single use plastics since high school. Just because it's hard doesn't mean you give up. I'm not talking about ending all plastics since that's unrealistic at the moment, but one time use plastics are unnecessary and can be reduced, if not ended one day.

[Chloe]

Damn irresponsible hikers are the problem. Chloe?
They can be a problem, sure. I bring reusable water bottles with me when I hike so i'm not part of the problem.

[resister]

I am disappointed Chloe, I am a very green member and you basically ignore my ideas.

I may be conservative but I might just be greener than you!

[Chloe]

And it's Trump's fault that some people can't pick up their own trash. No one ever littered prior to Trump becoming POTUS.

I guess the liberals don't believe people can buy cases of bottled water elsewhere and bring them into the parks.

People did litter which was a reason for this national park action. The littering and the ban has nothing to do with Trump but the reversal does since it was clearly done to satisfy the political/business connections of the deputy interior secretary and to diminish Obama's legacy.

[Chloe]

yes it is..... She's irrationally shrieking about Trump lifting a symbolic ban on bottled water being sold in national parks.
I've said nothing irrational and there's no shrieking.

[Chloe]

The anger or outrage over this is pure partisan hackery. Another symptom of TDD.

Really the only hackery is coming from you. If you truly can't see the negative effects of one-time use plastics being left in the wilderness all because you like Trump then what is that called?

[Chloe]

Are we talking about so called outdoors people littering or just the cost of disposing of the bittles after the users place them in a proper recsepticle? If it's the latter the sale of the water will also increase revenue.
It's the combination of littering and the unnecessary continuance of one-time use plastics. They are very harmful to the environment and to wildlife.

[Chloe]

I am disappointed Chloe, I am a very green member and you basically ignore my ideas.

I may be conservative but I might just be greener than you!
Your ideas? Where?

[resister]

Your ideas? Where?
Maybe you missed it, when I was razzing you about paper over plastic, you recommended reusable insulated, My saddle bag is one (rescued from the trash)19534 And boats built from plastic19535 Towed behind Bike trailers Chloe

I also have an idea to use 4 and 6 pack rings linked together for a trellis

[Tahuyaman]

Really the only hackery is coming from you. If you truly can't see the negative effects of one-time use plastics being left in the wilderness all because you like Trump then what is that called?
You're being silly. Grow up.

[Tahuyaman]

I've said nothing irrational and there's no shrieking. yes, you are being irrational.

[resister]

Really the only hackery is coming from you. If you truly can't see the negative effects of one-time use plastics being left in the wilderness all because you like Trump then what is that called?
You have to take a righteous cause and partisanize it *headslap* I saw the same amount of trash laid around for the last decade!

You know what Chloe ? For years, I will spontaneously pick up random trash in wild places.

More effective than Partisan bickering on TPF....:rollseyes:

[resister]

Chloe I brokered the release of the second softshell turtle today, my friend likes to eat them, I convinced him that it is good karma to release them.

I will not eat them unless I am starving (unlikely in the modern world)

I got a great feeling putting it back in the river, I watched it go home.

[Abby08]

Chloe I brokered the release of the second softshell turtle today, my friend likes to eat them, I convinced him that it is good karma to release them.

I will not eat them unless I am starving (unlikely in the modern world)

I got a great feeling putting it back in the river, I watched it go home.

And, I, relocated a rattlesnake on Friday. He was in my yard and, very frightened, I didn't want to kill him, but, didn't want him to end up in with my horses.

I managed to get him into a plastic bucket and, took him far into the woods.

[MisterVeritis]

Your "personal responsibility" thing is all grand and good - but the average Trump voter doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment.

Those are the people we must protect the planet from.
I wonder if the 1.4 acres I live on is cleaner than the quarter-acre you live on?

[resister]

And, I, relocated a rattlesnake on Friday. He was in my yard and, very frightened, I didn't want to kill him, but, didn't want him to end up in with my horses.

I managed to get him into a plastic bucket and, took him far into the woods.Good Karma on us all!

[Safety]

I wonder if the 1.4 acres I live on is cleaner than the quarter-acre you live on?

1.4, that's it? Hopefully your survival bunker is located somewhere more vast and controlled.

[resister]

1.4, that's it? Hopefully your survival bunker is located somewhere more vast and controlled.
Mine is located 2,238 ft uderground

[Kalkin]

People had to bring a reusable bottle. The sky is falling.

Regardless, the problem is the people, not the bottles. Nice butt, btw.

[Kalkin]

They can be a problem, sure. I bring reusable water bottles with me when I hike so i'm not part of the problem.

I don't hike and I rarely drink water, so it aint me either.

[Peter1469]

And, I, relocated a rattlesnake on Friday. He was in my yard and, very frightened, I didn't want to kill him, but, didn't want him to end up in with my horses.

I managed to get him into a plastic bucket and, took him far into the woods.

I go out of my way to save wildlife, but a rattlesnake? No.

[IMPress Polly]

Tahuyaman wrote:
This actually could be used as another opportunity for environmentalists to show their commitment to the earth and raise awareness for their cause. They can organize groups of people to visit the parks and conduct police call in areas where other caring liberals drop their garbage.

It could also be used as an opportunity for you to do something other than objectively defend pollution, but that'll be the day.


yes, you are being irrational.

She makes perfect sense to me! Now you on the other hand...


MisterVeritis wrote:
I wonder if the 1.4 acres I live on is cleaner than the quarter-acre you live on?


Safety wrote:
1.4, that's it? Hopefully your survival bunker is located somewhere more vast and controlled.

What is this, a contest of who is the most annoyingly suburban? :rollseyes:

I don't think this...

19543

...is what Chloe means by promoting the idea of going green.



Green Arrow wrote:
Lifting the ban was pointless. It did nothing but fool the easily fooled into thinking something substantial was accomplished by Cheeto Jesus.
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

I've heard Trump called a lot of things before, but Cheeto Jesus is a new one on me. :laugh: From whence does this one derive?

[MisterVeritis]

It could also be used as an opportunity for you to do something other than objectively defend pollution, but that'll be the day.
She makes perfect sense to me! Now you on the other hand...
What is this, a contest of who is the most annoyingly suburban? :rollseyes:
I don't think this...
19543
...is what Chloe means by promoting the idea of going green.
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

I've heard Trump called a lot of things before, but Cheeto Jesus is a new one on me. :laugh: From whence does this one derive?
Radical leftists talk a good game. I keep my property clean. It is also heavily wooded.

[Abby08]

I go out of my way to save wildlife, but a rattlesnake? No.

He was just a little fella. They don't grow very big here.

[Private Pickle]

Country is falling apart. World is on brink of war.

Chloe is concerned about water bottles.

LOL at this thread.

[Green Arrow]

@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

I've heard Trump called a lot of things before, but Cheeto Jesus is a new one on me. :laugh: From whence does this one derive?
Standing Wolf :tongue:

[Captain Obvious]

Meh... bans are stupid.

People will be slobs no matter what, banning something just restricts responsible people.

I support the move.

[Captain Obvious]

Want to keep parks clean?

Put some fucking rubbish cans out. duh... Parks are moving away from trash collection, because it saves costs I guess.

And taze littering slobs.

Treat the disease, not the symptom.

[Chloe]

Country is falling apart. World is on brink of war.

Chloe is concerned about water bottles.

LOL at this thread.

You're right. I mean, i'm sure you haven't done anything for fun ever since the world starting falling apart or worked on hobbies or things that you like and inspire you ever since the world became on the brink of war, right? You just stay inside and prepare for the end, right? Go away please.

[Chloe]

Want to keep parks clean?

Put some fucking rubbish cans out. duh... Parks are moving away from trash collection, because it saves costs I guess.

And taze littering slobs.

Treat the disease, not the symptom.

the disease is one-time use plastics

[Chloe]

I don't hike and I rarely drink water, so it aint me either.

If you side with the continued usage and defense one single use plastics and also defend obvious cronyism from the deputy interior then yes you kinda are.

[Chloe]

You have to take a righteous cause and partisanize it *headslap* I saw the same amount of trash laid around for the last decade!

You know what @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) ? For years, I will spontaneously pick up random trash in wild places.

More effective than Partisan bickering on TPF....:rollseyes:
I didn't make it partisan, tahuyaman did on here, and the administration did by letting the deputy interior secretary do a favor for his former buddies while trying to blemish Obama. I don't care about Obama's legacy but the action by the administration was for no other reason than favors and revenge.

[Chloe]

You're being silly. Grow up.
uh no, it's not silly to question and call out a clear case of cronyism at the expense of the health of pristine wilderness.

[Tahuyaman]

the disease is one-time use plastics


No, it's people who are too lazy to take care of their trash properly.

[Tahuyaman]

I didn't make it partisan, tahuyaman did on here, and the administration did by letting the deputy interior secretary do a favor for his former buddies while trying to blemish Obama. I don't care about Obama's legacy but the action by the administration was for no other reason than favors and revenge.


Complete nonsense.

I made it a partisan issue by criticizing you for inserting a partisan element into this?

How did the parks survive prior to the symbolic bottled water sales ban?

[Private Pickle]

You're right. I mean, i'm sure you haven't done anything for fun ever since the world starting falling apart or worked on hobbies or things that you like and inspire you ever since the world became on the brink of war, right? You just stay inside and prepare for the end, right? Go away please.

Well I haven't bothered worrying about plastic bottles. Go save a sparrow...

[Kalkin]

If you side with the continued usage and defense one single use plastics and also defend obvious cronyism from the deputy interior then yes you kinda are.

You logic is practically non-existent.

[Tahuyaman]

You logic is practically non-existent.

Its typical of the irrational enviro-shrieker.

[gamewell45]

In the latest from a death of a thousand cuts, White House sides with bottled water lobbyists to encourage plastic pollution in parks.
Six years ago the Obama administration enacted a ban on selling bottled water at National Parks. The action, Policy Memorandum 11-03, commonly referred to as the “Water Bottle Ban,” was designed to help alleviate the deleterious burden of plastic. The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/) writes:
“National parks, as premier tourist destinations, use taxpayer dollars to manage the burden of discarded plastic water bottles,” said an earlier memorandum by the Park Service’s facility management division. “Notably, this is a relatively new financial burden, with global sales of bottled water quadrupling between 1990 and 2005.”
The memo said the division’s decision was based on “the 50 billion plastic water bottles” disposed of by Americans each year and the “approximately 20 billion barrels of oil” required during production – when millions of tons of greenhouse-gas pollution are generated that contribute to global warming.

Of the 900 tons of garbage recycled by Grand Canyon National Park, 30 percent of it was estimated to be comprised of water bottles. And while only 23 of the country’s park had implemented the Obama-era policy, more were to follow and the cumulative effect was expected to be significant. Many parks now have water stations throughout specifically for refilling bottles.
But now, according to a press release from the National Parks Service (https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/08-16-2017-water-bottles.htm), the ban is kaput:

The 2011 policy, which encouraged national parks to eliminate the sale of disposable water bottles, has been rescinded to expand hydration options for recreationalists, hikers, and other visitors to national parks.

Curiously (or not) the statement sounds quite a bit like the arguments used by the International Bottled Water Association (IBWA) in their campaign against the ban.
Even more curiously (or not) the new direction came a mere three weeks after the Senate confirmation of David Bernhardt as deputy interior secretary. As The Post reports, “Bernhardt is a former lobbyist with the law firm Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck, which has represented one of the largest water bottlers in the United States...”
Critics of Bernhardt have called him a “walking conflict of interest” because of his work for corporations opposed to Interior Department regulations devoted to promoting clean air and water. “Under Trump, the Department of the Interior appears to be working hand in hand with the bottled-water industry to do its bidding,” says Lauren DeRusha Florez, who works for the non-profit group Corporate Accountability International.
I guess it’s hard to drain the swamp when it’s clogged with plastic water bottles. Even so, I wonder if we will see the parks subtly defy the policy discontinuation. "We know that many of our parks want to do away with bottled water," writes (https://www.stopcorporateabuse.org/blog/breaking-bottled-water-free-parks-under-threat-after-trump-appointment) Florez. "Let's make sure they know that we support them in that move, even if the current administration doesn't."
Via The Washington Post (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/17/national-parks-banned-bottled-water-to-ease-pollution-trump-just-sided-with-the-lobby-that-fought-it/)
What ever happened to the days of bringing in a canteen of water with you? That's what I always do; they always have spigots to refill your canteen with as well.

[Kalkin]

Its typical of the irrational enviro-shrieker.
If you don't buy into my hysteria, you become a target of it.

[IMPress Polly]

Tahuyaman wrote:
Its typical of the irrational enviro-shrieker.

I think the truth is that you (and at least a few other people here) would literally just say anything to antagonize Chloe because nothing you've said on this thread so far has made any sense to me.

[Kalkin]

I think the truth is that you (and at least a few other people here) would literally just say anything to antagonize Chloe because nothing you've said on this thread so far has made any sense to me.

I like Chloe. I also like antagonizing people. What a dilemma.

[Tahuyaman]

If you don't buy into my hysteria, you become a target of it.
If you don't buy into the hysteria you are causing environmental destruction.

[Tahuyaman]

I think the truth is that you (and at least a few other people here) would literally just say anything to antagonize Chloe because nothing you've said on this thread so far has made any sense to me.
I said this ban was symbolic and accomplished nothing. Lifting the ban is not causing environmental destruction.

That makes perfect sense.

[Chloe]

Well I haven't bothered worrying about plastic bottles. Go save a sparrow...

Maybe I will. In the meantime go watch Game of Thrones and eagerly wait for the next opportunity to to do your normal pouting and passive aggressive attempts to derail my threads. Shouldn't you be only focusing on the country being on the brink of war anyway?

[Chloe]

I said this ban was symbolic and accomplished nothing. Lifting the ban is not causing environmental destruction.

That makes perfect sense.

The ban was responsible and forward thinking. The lifting was symbolic and will cause harm.

[Abby08]

Plastic bottles ARE a problem, in the hands of irresponsible people.....and, we have no shortage of those.

Plastic, in general, is a huge problem, it doesn't biodegrade.

Not allowing plastic bottles into national parks, was a good move, if it inconvienced anyone, it was the one's who thought everyone liked looking at their trash.

[Private Pickle]

Maybe I will. In the meantime go watch Game of Thrones and eagerly wait for the next opportunity to to do your normal pouting and passive aggressive attempts to derail my threads. Shouldn't you be only focusing on the country being on the brink of war anyway?

Will do. With any luck NK will destroy Japan so you and your overly hairy friends can throw a party about no more whaling. Amirite?

[Captain Obvious]

The ban was responsible and forward thinking. The lifting was symbolic and will cause harm.

lol no, the ban was a farce.

So people bring in cans or other one time use alternative and water and soda contnues to be sold in increasing levels in plastic bottles.

It was a complete joke that did or changed nothine, standard LW feel good mental masturbation.

[Tahuyaman]

The ban was responsible and forward thinking. The lifting was symbolic and will cause harm.

Symbolism is not forward thinking nor is it responsible. In fact it's irresponsible. It makes you "feel" like something is being done when it accomplishes nothing.

No environmental issue is solved by making people buy bottled water outside of a national park. Where people purchase something has no bearing on their littering habits.

Maybe the parks should increase the number of trash receptacles?

[Tahuyaman]

Plastic bottles ARE a problem, in the hands of irresponsible people.....and, we have no shortage of those.

Plastic, in general, is a huge problem, it doesn't biodegrade.

Not allowing plastic bottles into national parks, was a good move, if it inconvienced anyone, it was the one's who thought everyone liked looking at their trash.

They didn't ban bringing in bottled water. You could bring in all you wanted. It just had to be purchased somewhere else.

Symbolism.....

[Abby08]

Symbolism is not forward thinking nor is it responsible. In fact it's irresponsible. It makes you "feel" like something is being done when it accomplishes nothing.

No environmental issue is solved by making people buy bottled water outside of a national park. Where people purchase something has no bearing on their littering habits.

Maybe the parks should increase the number of trash receptacles?

I have found, it doesn't matter if trash receptacles are readily available, I watched people sitting in their car, eating their fast food and, throw the trash out the window.....a trash can was sitting a few feet away.

Not only, not selling bottled water at national parks, but, not allowing any to be brought in, might help.

I watched a woman throw her empty bottle off to the side of the trail, like it was something she was accustomed to doing.

Maybe, irresponsible people, if faced with restrictions, would think twice about littering.....but, I doubt it.

[Cletus]

Hang a few along a trail. Put a sign around their necks say "Caught Littering".

After a few dozen or so, people will get the message.

[Abby08]

They didn't ban bringing in bottled water. You could bring in all you wanted. It just had to be purchased somewhere else.

Symbolism.....

It makes no sense to not sell it, but, allow it in. Just, ban plastic bottles, if people don't know how to dispose of them properly, don't allow them to have them.

[Tahuyaman]

In order to keep the wilderness as pristine as some would like, it would need to be completely closed to the public.

I have seen littler in a national park, but I have never seen someone brazenly throw out litter with others around like Abby08 just said. Even the most lazy or inconsiderate people know better than that.

[Abby08]

In order to keep the wilderness as pristine as some would like, it would need to be completely closed to the public.

I have seen littler in a national park, but I have never seen someone brazenly throw out litter with others around like Abby08 just said. Even the most lazy or inconsiderate people know better than that.

The woman who threw her bottle on the trail, was with a group, someone filmed her with their phone, so, there had to have been others around.

People just don't care anymore.

Maybe, it's not such a bad idea, closing national parks to the public, put up signs...."this park closed, due to some people's insistence on using it as their personal trash can."

The litterbugs would STILL say, "gee, some people."

[Abby08]

Lazy, inconsiderate people, don't care because..... they're lazy and, inconsiderate, they don't care what others think of their littering.

They could hand out trash bags to each park visitor, for their personal trash, but, they'd only have those, littering the landscape, in addition to everything else.

[Cannons Front]

Just could not help but notice "Of the 900 tons of garbage recycled by Grand Canyon National Park, 30 percent of it was estimated to be comprised of water bottles" So they were being recycled? That is good right?

Also by their math it takes nearly 20 gallons of crude oil to make a plastic bottle? Really?

[Cannons Front]

And what did those irresponsible hikers do when Obama asked the NPs not to sell bottled water.
They brought their own damn water in canteens or in reusable plastic which they didn't leave behind.
This is all about giving the bottled water industry and their lobbyists a reach around whilst telling environmentalists to get F'd.
And of course, it's about undoing stuff Obama did (regardless of what it was). It's an obsession with Trump.

A great many of them stopped by the local grocery and bought a case of water for $.10 a bottle just like they did before the ban instead of paying $1.50-$2.00 a bottle.

[Captain Obvious]

Want to make a meaningful change instead of meaningless puffery? Actively promote recycling and trash removal.

But yeah, I know. With meaningless bans nobody really has to do anything except feel like they are.

[Abby08]

A great many of them stopped by the local grocery and bought a case of water for $.10 a bottle just like they did before the ban instead of paying $1.50-$2.00 a bottle.

And, that entire case of empty bottles, ends up thrown on the ground, at various points......no one is going to lug a case of empties, around with them, or, bother to find a trash can, more than likely, as is evidenced by all the trash the park rangers have to gather up.

[Cannons Front]

And, that entire case of empty bottles, ends up thrown on the ground, at various points......no one is going to lug a case of empties, around with them, or, bother to find a trash can, more than likely, as is evidenced by all the trash the park rangers have to gather up.

Yes but the "ban" did nothing to address that, they still brought the bottles in, they still bought plastic bottles of Soda, Fruit Juice, etc.... all of the other bottled drinks were still sold, and they were thrown to the ground as well. This whole thing was a political stunt, just like Al Gore raging about energy waste and carbon footprint and pollution while he lives in a house that uses 10 -20 times that of the average house in the US.
I agree plastic bottles are bad for the environment, something needs to be done, but the answer isn't silly look at me programs that do not address the core issue.

[Mini Me]

ugh

Death by a thousand cuts is right.

Watch Nestle come in and garb the concession. This is the first step in PRIVATIZATION of parks and other Gov.t entities!

[Mini Me]

When you see a rally by conservative types, the area is left quite clean and free of trash and vandalism. When you see a rally from the left wing types, the area generally looks like a littered mess which needs a massive clean-up effort and repairs from the damage left in its wake.

Wash, rinse, repeat old, tired meme again!

[Tahuyaman]

Wash, rinse, repeat old, tired meme again!




Facts are difficult to refute.

[IMPress Polly]

Chloe wrote:
In the meantime go watch Game of Thrones...

I got this reference. That was clever. :grin:

[Grokmaster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY




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