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View Full Version : James Cameron: Wonder Woman a "Step Backwards"



IMPress Polly
08-26-2017, 07:01 AM
So recently there's been some debate over the Wonder Woman movie because famous filmmaker James Cameron (Terminator, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, Titanic, Avatar) has claimed that the film represents "a step backwards" for female representation in film, saying it was "male Hollywood doing the same old thing" in responding positively to "an objectified icon". He posited Sarah Connor from the first two Terminator movies and Ripley from Aliens as having been better alternatives, highlighting Linda Hamilton's Sarah Connor in particular: "Sarah Connor was not a beauty icon. She was strong, she was troubled, she was a terrible mother, and she earned the respect of the audience through pure grit. ...I mean, half the audience is female!"

Wonder Woman's director Patty Jenkins has responded essentially by pointing out that it's not a contest:

James Cameron’s inability to understand what Wonder Woman, or stands for, to women all over the world is unsurprising as, though he is a great filmmaker, he is not a woman. Strong women are great. His praise of my film Monster, and our portrayal of a strong yet damaged woman was so appreciated. But if women have to always be hard, tough and troubled to be strong, and we aren’t free to be multidimensional or celebrate an icon of women everywhere because she is attractive and loving, then we haven’t come very far have we. I believe women can and should be EVERYTHING just like male lead characters should be. There is no right and wrong kind of powerful woman. And the massive female audience who made the film a hit it is, can surely choose to judge their own icons of progress."

Look at that! Both can coexist in the same world! This movie AND the likes of the new Star Wars in the same year! Who would've thought?

And I have to admit that I too do get tired of the mansplaining on the question of sexuality. It does seem to be mostly men who raise that particular objection to this film. I consider myself to a feminist (and am female) and personally I LOVED the Wonder Woman movie! It's my favorite movie this year so far!

Sure, there are a those who think that any display of sex appeal is automatically sexual objectification, but I'm not one of those. The important thing about Gal Gadot's character, in that connection, is that her sex appeal is an outgrowth of her agency rather than something that is simply imposed upon the character. The film treats her as sexually appealing for being physically and intellectually strong, not for being victimized (or infantilized like a certain other DC female), and it's hardly the sole quality of Diana Prince as a character that we're presented with. The camera does not strategically linger in those places that we've come to expect it to from male-directed films either. It doesn't feel demeaning to me, but rather like just one more reason why the target audience wants to be her and finds her all-around awesome.

Would you like Batman as much if he looked very average rather than like an impossible ideal of masculinity? I doubt it. Superhero movies are fantasies. Power fantasies more specifically. It just seems to me like the relatively few critics of this movie don't get that and expect more realism than befits a character who is supposed to be a more or less all-around idyllic fantasy for women.

The lame-ass Baywatch movie is what sexual objectification looks like. This is not.

I did a whole thread on the difference between sex appeal as such and sexual objectification here (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/83675-Sexy-vs-Sexualized-The-Difference) if you may find that pertinent.

(As to the numbers competition, Wonder Woman's viewing audience was primarily female, which is remarkable for a genre in which it is usually less than 40% female.)

Peter1469
08-26-2017, 07:11 AM
I have not seen Wonder Woman- maybe when it gets to TV, or on my next international flight (Nov).

But the Sarah Connor in the 1st Terminator movie was good. She was a mom protecting her kid.

I guess some would see that as terribly sexist.

Green Arrow
08-26-2017, 09:13 AM
James Cameron is a classless buffoon and a narcissist. He was just using this as an opportunity to plug the "greatness" of his own products. It was a commercial.

IMPress Polly
08-26-2017, 10:47 AM
Peter wrote:
I have not seen Wonder Woman- maybe when it gets to TV, or on my next international flight (Nov).

But the Sarah Connor in the 1st Terminator movie was good. She was a mom protecting her kid.

I guess some would see that as terribly sexist.

Not at all! I've seen the four James Cameron pictures that I listed in the OP and quite enjoyed the first pair of Terminator movies myself! (Titanic and Avatar not as much.) But the point here that I don't think Mr. Cameron understands is that characters like Sarah Connor aren't the only valid form of empowering female representation in film. To compare Terminator to Wonder Woman is to compare apples to oranges in my view. They're not the same kind of action movie.

But let me get more to the heart of the matter for me. There was another fairly popular superhero film (less popular than Wonder Woman, but still) that came out this summer that represented females quite terribly called Spider-Man: Homecoming. The movie contains only one scene in which female characters manage to so much as talk to each other without being interrupted by a guy. And what do they discuss in that instance? Men. (Namely, which male Avengers they'd like to fuck.) The most important female character in that movie is hardly more than our male protagonist's love interest and winds up as a damsel in distress inevitably. It's just objectively far more demeaning of female human beings than even the most ludicrous interpretation of Wonder Woman...and yet I don't see any men, prominent or otherwise, complaining about that. Just Wonder Woman. That 'coincidence' leads me to believe that a lot of these male critiques of ostensible sexualization in the Wonder Woman movie in truth are a lot more motivated by the nature of Gal Gadot's role than by her costume. Maybe or maybe not in Mr. Cameron's case, but in a lot of them.

Peter1469
08-26-2017, 10:52 AM
Not at all! I've seen the four James Cameron pictures that I listed in the OP and quite enjoyed the first pair of Terminator movies myself! (Titanic and Avatar not as much.) But the point here that I don't think Mr. Cameron understands is that characters like Sarah Connor aren't the only valid form of empowering female representation in film. To compare Terminator to Wonder Woman is to compare apples to oranges in my view. They're not the same kind of action movie.

But let me get more to the heart of the matter for me. There was another fairly popular superhero film (less popular than Wonder Woman, but still) that came out this summer that represented females quite terribly called Spider-Man: Homecoming. The movie contains only one scene in which female characters manage to so much as talk to each other without being interrupted by a guy. And what do they discuss in that instance? Men. (Namely, which male Avengers they'd like to fuck.) The most important female character in that movie is hardly more than our male protagonist's love interest and winds up as a damsel in distress inevitably. It's just objectively far more demeaning of female human beings than even the most ludicrous interpretation of Wonder Woman...and yet I don't see any men, prominent or otherwise, complaining about that. Just Wonder Woman. That 'coincidence' leads me to believe that a lot of these critiques of ostensible sexualization in the Wonder Woman movie in truth have a lot more to do with the nature of Gal Gadot's role than with her costume.

Sorry I never got into comics or the video games that became movies.

My only point was Sarah Conner was the mom taking care of her kid with extreme measures.

IMPress Polly
08-26-2017, 10:57 AM
Peter wrote:
Sorry I never got into comics or the video games that became movies.

My only point was Sarah Conner was the mom taking care of her kid with extreme measures.

No worries!

Anyway, to your point on Terminator then, to me a woman being cast in a protector type or role does not seem as typical as a woman being cast in a strictly nurturing role when it comes to her relationship to her child or children.

Kalkin
08-26-2017, 11:00 AM
I thought it was a bad movie.

Peter1469
08-26-2017, 11:50 AM
No worries!

Anyway, to your point on Terminator then, to me a woman being cast in a protector type or role does not seem as typical as a woman being cast in a strictly nurturing role when it comes to her relationship to her child or children.

I can agree with that.

Standing Wolf
08-26-2017, 11:53 AM
But the Sarah Connor in the 1st Terminator movie was good. She was a mom protecting her kid.

I guess some would see that as terribly sexist.

Bryan Mills, Liam Neeson's character in Taken, was doing that, too. It's what Nature compels a parent to do.

As for Cameron, I agree with others that he's simply trying to glom onto WW's success by injecting himself into the story. Every female lead character in a film doesn't have to exhibit the exact same qualities in order for it to be a good (or even a great) movie, any more than male characters do.

Peter1469
08-26-2017, 11:55 AM
Bryan Mills, Liam Neeson's character in Taken, was doing that, too. It's what Nature compels a parent to do.

As for Cameron, I agree with others that he's simply trying to glom onto WW's success by injecting himself into the story. Every female lead character in a film doesn't have to exhibit the exact same qualities in order for it to be a good (or even a great) movie, any more than male characters do.

The Taken was excellent.

Standing Wolf
08-26-2017, 12:43 PM
I liked the second one, too. My wife swears we watched the third movie, but I don't remember even seeing it, so it couldn't have been too memorable. That or my EOA is worse than I thought. :rollseyes:

Cletus
08-26-2017, 02:14 PM
Hell, I married Ripley. There is nobody I would rather depend on in a crisis.

The character devolved as the franchise ran on and on. Cameron should have stopped after the second installment of the Alien saga.

AeonPax
08-26-2017, 02:31 PM
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Just another old white man lecturing women on how women should think. What a fool.

Standing Wolf
08-26-2017, 02:33 PM
Hell, I married Ripley. There is nobody I would rather depend on in a crisis.

The character devolved as the franchise ran on and on. Cameron should have stopped after the second installment of the Alien saga.

III was kind of a bummer, but IV, Resurrection, absolutely kicked ass in every way. One of my favorite movies.

Mister D
08-26-2017, 02:38 PM
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Just another old white man lecturing women on how women should think. What a fool.
Poor thing. Did he violate your safe space?

Mister D
08-26-2017, 02:39 PM
The spirit, if you will, of the original Terminator sets it apart, IMO. It was very grim science fiction. It was by far the best of the series.

AeonPax
08-27-2017, 02:50 AM
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Related; Gal Gadot on Becoming Wonder Woman, the Biggest Action Hero of the Year (https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/features/wonder-woman-gal-gadot-on-becoming-badass-female-action-hero-w498704) - Good interview from Rolling Stone.

IMPress Polly
08-27-2017, 09:01 AM
Mister D wrote:
Poor thing. Did he violate your safe space?

That doesn't even make sense in this context. :tongue: As to your opposition to privacy rights for women...

19692

...deal with it.

(Seriously, the women-only screening at that one theater in Texas was the biggest controversy surrounding the film. It was funny too because the theater responded by introducing a whole bunch more of them, and they all sold out. More theaters followed suit elsewhere in the country afterward. It became a whole thing! Apparently, there is, in fact, demand out there for women-only events. And as much seems thematically appropriate to the character, who, after all, lives in a female-only society.)

Mister D
08-27-2017, 01:48 PM
That doesn't even make sense in this context. :tongue: As to your opposition to privacy rights for women...

19692

...deal with it.

(Seriously, the women-only screening at that one theater in Texas was the biggest controversy surrounding the film. It was funny too because the theater responded by introducing a whole bunch more of them, and they all sold out. More theaters followed suit elsewhere in the country afterward. It became a whole thing! Apparently, there is, in fact, demand out there for women-only events. And as much seems thematically appropriate to the character, who, after all, lives in a female-only society.)
What? lol