Why Should the States Be "United"? [Archive]

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Ethereal

10-11-2017, 03:15 PM

resister

10-11-2017, 03:18 PM

I wonder what the Confederate states of America, would be like, today?

Chris

10-11-2017, 03:24 PM

Power, purely for power. The power to control the people and their lives. Separate, the states could still cooperate in self-defense just as they would in the market.

Don

10-11-2017, 03:35 PM

gamewell45

10-11-2017, 03:38 PM

Kalkin

10-11-2017, 04:01 PM

Peter1469

10-11-2017, 04:52 PM

If the federal government were only stripped of the power they have unconstitutionally usurped from the states it wouldn't matter. Any states people could determine what is best for them economically or socially as long as they didn't encroach on the rights of the peoples in other states. The states that dream up ridiculous utopian schemes and social programs along with the high taxes would have to live with any problems created. The smart states would set an example for the others to follow.
Bingo. Bring federalism back. The states ought to be sovereign outside of Article 1 sec. 8, US Const.

Kacper

10-11-2017, 05:12 PM

Agent Zero

10-11-2017, 05:38 PM

What real reason - cultural, religious, ancestral, etc. - is there for the American States to remain politically "united" with one another when it is exceedingly clear that they are, in fact, bitterly divided?
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to separate peacefully instead of staying in a dysfunctional, hateful political marriage that has already resulted in one massively devastating war?

Because the Constitution made it so.

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Agent Zero

10-11-2017, 05:39 PM

Bingo. Bring federalism back. The states ought to be sovereign outside of Article 1 sec. 8, US Const.
Yet that's not the way it ended up, is it? Are you saying the founding fathers erred?

Captain Obvious

10-11-2017, 05:45 PM

MisterVeritis

10-11-2017, 06:03 PM

If the federal government were only stripped of the power they have unconstitutionally usurped from the states it wouldn't matter. Any states people could determine what is best for them economically or socially as long as they didn't encroach on the rights of the peoples in other states. The states that dream up ridiculous utopian schemes and social programs along with the high taxes would have to live with any problems created. The smart states would set an example for the others to follow.
We have just one remaining Constitutional path forward. We must amend the Constitution. The amendment process has two routes. One is through the states and stands a chance. The other is through the Congress. The Congress is the reason we are in this mess.

MisterVeritis

10-11-2017, 06:04 PM

Not really. We probably should go in a Canadian direction and have provinces and let all the day to day power rest with those governments and the federal government be about defense.
All you have to do is amend the Constitution.

Peter1469

10-11-2017, 06:38 PM

Yet that's not the way it ended up, is it? Are you saying the founding fathers erred?

No. Those who came after them failed.

Peter1469

10-11-2017, 06:39 PM

The reason I hesitate to support federalism or states rights for that matter is that instead of having one bloated central government we now have 50 to a lesser degree bloated central governments.

I'm not convinced that's a better alternative.
It is much better. It is easier to effect change at the local level. And the US is so big, a one size federal solution will rarely be good for many if not most states.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:17 PM

I wonder what the Confederate states of America, would be like, today?

Extinct.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:27 PM

Extinct.
That makes no sense.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:28 PM

It is much better. It is easier to effect change at the local level. And the US is so big, a one size federal solution will rarely be good for many if not most states.
There are obvious federal prerogatives but you are spot on. Delegate only what is not manageable locally.

Cthulhu

10-11-2017, 07:29 PM

Because the Constitution made it so.

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Tacky at best.

Sent from my evil cell phone.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:29 PM

BTW, individual rights are at the root of our aversion to politics.

Chris

10-11-2017, 07:31 PM

Extinct.

It's northern cities in trouble, Chicago, Detroit. Following WWIIa lot of manufacturing moved south leaving behind a rust belt.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:36 PM

That makes no sense.

Why is that?

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:37 PM

Why is that?
Because he asked what it would look like today which of course presupposes its existence. Don't be daft.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:38 PM

It's northern cities in trouble, Chicago, Detroit. Following WWIIa lot of manufacturing moved south leaving behind a rust belt.

They wouldn't have moved to a slave holding agricultural nation. Also :separate country, not so easy or acceptable to move offshore back then.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:39 PM

Because he asked what it would look like today which of course presupposes its existence. Don't be daft.

I gave my opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:40 PM

They wouldn't have moved to a slave holding agricultural nation. Also :separate country, not so easy or acceptable to move offshore back then.
Actually, it would have been pretty easy to move between the two and it wouldn't have been considered "offshore".

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:41 PM

I gave my opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it.
I did read it. That's why I said it makes no sense. I'll criticize your opinion whenever I please and there is nothing you can do about it. Your opinion made absolutely no sense. Do better.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:42 PM

Actually, it would have been pretty easy to move between the two and it wouldn't have been considered "offshore".

Why do you think so?

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:43 PM

I did read it. That's why I said it makes no sense. I'll criticize your opinion whenever I please and there is nothing you can do about it. Your opinion made absolutely no sense. Do better.

As I said, don't like it? Don't read it.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:45 PM

Why do you think so?

Because the economic ties between the two regions were both strong and necessary. That alone is enough so we don't have to get into the familial ties. The question is why do you think it wold be so difficult?

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:46 PM

As I said, don't like it? Don't read it.
As I said, I'll do as I please and there is nothing you can do about it. Your opinion made no sense.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 07:47 PM

Because the economic ties between the two regions were both strong and necessary. That alone is enough so we don't have to get into the familial ties. The question is why do you think it wold be so difficult?

Why do you think there would be continued strong ties after a war?

Mister D

10-11-2017, 07:50 PM

Why do you think there would be continued strong ties after a war?
Because they are right next to each other. Even the economic ties between France and Germany revived right after both world wars. Was that a serious question?

Chris

10-11-2017, 08:10 PM

They wouldn't have moved to a slave holding agricultural nation. Also :separate country, not so easy or acceptable to move offshore back then.

Slavery wouldn't have lasted, automation was replacing it.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 08:15 PM

Because they are right next to each other. Even the economic ties between France and Germany revived right after both world wars. Was that a serious question?

North and south Korea.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 08:21 PM

Slavery wouldn't have lasted, automation was replacing it.

Keeping slavery alive was the whole reason the southerners left. It would still have been there IMHO until someone stopped them.

Mister D

10-11-2017, 08:24 PM

North and south Korea.

What about them?

resister

10-11-2017, 08:31 PM

Extinct.
Got a Confederate dollar and a flag that says otherwise.

Chris

10-11-2017, 08:48 PM

Keeping slavery alive was the whole reason the southerners left. It would still have been there IMHO until someone stopped them.

No, it wasn't.

Trish

10-11-2017, 08:52 PM

I would prefer we divide.

Captain Obvious

10-11-2017, 09:08 PM

I would prefer we divide.
Why?

resister

10-11-2017, 09:12 PM

Why?I'm told that Astronauts in space, could not see borders.

Chris

10-11-2017, 09:13 PM

Politics should be like Protestantism.

Trish

10-11-2017, 09:14 PM

Why?

A couple reasons but primarily because we have different ideas about what is important.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 09:33 PM

What about them?

Took them over 50 years to start trading in any meaningful way didn't it?

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 09:34 PM

Got a Confederate dollar and a flag that says otherwise.

Try spending it.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 09:38 PM

No, it wasn't.

Yes sir, I'm afraid it was. Anything else is revisionist history.

Chris

10-11-2017, 10:04 PM

Yes sir, I'm afraid it was. Anything else is revisionist history.

History is constantly revised.

Your narrative is overly simplistic. It suits an agenda. But it's false.

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 10:43 PM

History is constantly revised.

Your narrative is overly simplistic. It suits an agenda. But it's false.

That isn't what the people and politicians of the South thought.

Tahuyaman

10-11-2017, 11:10 PM

I guess some people would rather see the United States being 50 different nations?

resister

10-11-2017, 11:28 PM

Try spending it.
If I want to, I can turn it into at least, ten dollars. I will hold onto it, it will only increase in value as the liberal war on America, goes on.

Ethereal

10-11-2017, 11:46 PM

Because the Constitution made it so.http://thepoliticalforums.com/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxMTEhUTExMWFhUXGB4YGBgYGB4aHRgdHhsaGB0dHx 8gHighHhslHRcaITEiJSkrLi4uGB8zODMsNygtMCsBCgoKDg0O GhAQGy0lHyUtLS0tLS0vLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS 0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLf/AABEIAKgBKwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAaAAACAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADBAECBQAG/8QARhAAAQIFAgQDBQYDBgMIAwAAAQIRAAMSITEEQQUiUWETcYE UMkKRoQYjUrHB0TNi8BUkQ4KS8aLS4QcWU2Nyc4PCRKOy/8QAGAEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwX/xAApEQACAgIBBAEDBAMAAAAAAAAAAQIREiHwMUFRYfEDInGBob HhMsHR/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwAapn9CK+CDkwzKkjY/SCHTjrePHPQFvYwA4v26wCYUo61H3U7k/t1O0MTUqSMEqwA2T57DuY87xBeo009K55RMlTlBAKbGWTgb8uT 3Z7YjpCGRmUqPSyyAA55mu2H7doEnigK2sQPePTsOp/KMzjaJ4QrwE1UnmuxUx5koI+JsnbAvi/BNXInSq0uKeVSCDUlX4W3PRsxcXVjJXRqTyDcNFCjp+UYZ4oZe qTK1UtSEqP3K6gU9Ob+Zyz7fU+omaMkMlTAm5GW3bvs/nGJRcasqkmIUB2OYsnTA7QTWfZvSqTUn7ubkTEWWD1J+LyU7wv ptStIpmpUVD/EQCpK+4AdST1BDdCYjjrRVIbRKH4RFJ5loBUspSALqOB64gsla Vmm701F9gSQHvZ2NuxgMtQXOXLUARLSkgZuqpyx7AAeausRRZc 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I was looking for good reasons, not bad ones.

resister

10-11-2017, 11:47 PM

I was looking for good reasons, not bad ones.
Look to another poster, you wont find it, there!

Crepitus

10-11-2017, 11:51 PM

If I want to, I can turn it into at least, ten dollars. I will hold onto it, it will only increase in value as the liberal war on America, goes on.

Thats selling it, not spending it. There is a difference.

Ethereal

10-11-2017, 11:54 PM

resister

10-11-2017, 11:59 PM

Thats selling it, not spending it. There is a difference.
What difference? I can sell a dollar for ten! My only regret is not having more!

Crepitus

10-12-2017, 12:01 AM

What difference? I can sell a dollar for ten! My only regret is not having more!
:rollseyes:

resister

10-12-2017, 12:05 AM

:rollseyes:
Profound contribution to TPF! Right on, Crepitus!

Kacper

10-12-2017, 05:17 AM

All you have to do is amend the Constitution.
As disagreeable as people are, it would take a generation and 1,000 pages just to come up with a new Bill of Rights

Ethereal

10-12-2017, 08:25 AM

As disagreeable as people are, it would take a generation and 1,000 pages just to come up with a new Bill of Rights
Precisely. The sort of unanimity and consensus that an amendment would require simply does not exist, meaning there is almost zero chance of fixing the situation through the present legal means. What is required is democratic secession at the state and local levels.

Chris

10-12-2017, 08:42 AM

That isn't what the people and politicians of the South thought.

Sure, if you cherry pick documents, but if you look at the whole situation and what everyone said, you see something else emerge.

Didn't I ask you earlier what the North fought for? Answer that and you'll begin to see the overly simplistic narrative it was all about slavery is false.

Chris

10-12-2017, 08:45 AM

Captdon

10-12-2017, 10:37 AM

Chris

10-12-2017, 10:38 AM

No. We tried that and ended up with 13 balkanized little states that couldn't exist on their own. How would thew Interstate roads have been built if every state had to work with it's neighbors so the roads met? How would ports be kept up if all the states use them but only one has to maintain them?

Nonsense.

They did exist on their own and were doing fine. Counterrevolutionary statists saw an advantage in a strong, centralized government. And now look where it led.

Ethereal

10-12-2017, 10:42 AM

No. We tried that and ended up with 13 balkanized little states that couldn't exist on their own.

Except they did exist on their own. They were independent states between 1775 and 1789.

How would thew Interstate roads have been built if every state had to work with it's neighbors so the roads met?

The same way that roads between the USA and Canada work.

How would ports be kept up if all the states use them but only one has to maintain them?

The same way international ports work.

Nonsense.

How ironic.

Crepitus

10-12-2017, 11:16 AM

Sure, if you cherry pick documents, but if you look at the whole situation and what everyone said, you see something else emerge.

Didn't I ask you earlier what the North fought for? Answer that and you'll begin to see the overly simplistic narrative it was all about slavery is false.

Can you show me a document from the south about the war that doesn't say things like "the natural condition of the black man is slavery" and instead lists other reasons for fighting the north?

Chris

10-12-2017, 12:22 PM

Can you show me a document from the south about the war that doesn't say things like "the natural condition of the black man is slavery" and instead lists other reasons for fighting the north?

I'll give you two, one of whom wrote that as well:

Afterward Davis agreed with Stephens about the basic issue of the war. In A Constitutional View of the Late War between the States (1868--1870) Stephens maintained: "It was a strife between the principles of Federation, on the one side, and Centralism, or Consolidation, on the other" In The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government (1881) Davis held that the Confederates had "fought for the maintenance of their State governments in all their reserved rights and powers."

@ http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/08/support-redistribution-shaped-envy-self-interest-not-fairness.html

So if the same guy wrote both, things are a whole lot more complex thant your cherry-picked simplification would suggest.

Crepitus

10-12-2017, 03:28 PM

I'll give you two, one of whom wrote that as well:

@ http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/08/support-redistribution-shaped-envy-self-interest-not-fairness.html

So if the same guy wrote both, things are a whole lot more complex thant your cherry-picked simplification would suggest.

Justification after the fact. How about something from the run up or actual war?

Chris

10-12-2017, 03:31 PM

Justification after the fact. How about something from the run up or actual war?

How about you try to reconcile Stephens saying both? You asked and I provided, so deal with it rather than trying to brush it away.

Crepitus

10-12-2017, 03:44 PM

How about you try to reconcile Stephens saying both? You asked and I provided, so deal with it rather than trying to brush it away.

Justification after the fact. After the war was lost, slavery was abolished, and they were trying to save some face they started attempting to find other, less reprehensible reasons why they did what they did.

Chris

10-12-2017, 03:48 PM

Justification after the fact. After the war was lost, slavery was abolished, and they were trying to save some face they started attempting to find other, less reprehensible reasons why they did what they did.

That's not a reconciliation of two ideas. That's a cop out from dealing with a complex issue.

You are aware the Stephens was a state's rights advocate long before the war. He is consistent on that.

Captdon

10-12-2017, 06:45 PM

They did exist on their own and were doing fine. Counterrevolutionary statists saw an advantage in a strong, centralized government. And now look where it led.

Doing fine? They had tariffs against each other and an economy that barely existed. Go to another state and you wouldn't know what rights you had, if any. No one knew where the borders actually were and no one to settle the issue. Their was no common currency and , therefore, no common value for anything.You couldn't legally own land if you weren't a state citizen. Etc.

Captdon

10-12-2017, 06:52 PM

Except they did exist on their own. They were independent states between 1775 and 1789.

The same way that roads between the USA and Canada work.

The same way international ports work.

How ironic.

The whole purpose of the convention was to make the Confederation work. It didn't. 1783-1787 showed them that.There was no real government during the revolution.

What's an international port. Where does on exist?

Chris

10-12-2017, 07:22 PM

The whole purpose of the convention was to make the Confederation work. It didn't. 1783-1787 showed them that.There was no real government during the revolution.

What's an international port. Where does on exist?

The Confederation was working. Just not to the benefit of those who saw gain in a centralized, stronger, federal government.

Dr. Who

10-12-2017, 07:46 PM

So far, I've seen only one actual reason why they should remain united, which is defense. Yet is a unitary political system really necessary for defensive purposes? Just as one obvious example, Canada and the USA cooperate on defense while maintaining separate political systems. And the American revolution itself was fought by states that were politically independent from one another. Patrick Henry made this very point during the debates over the constitution.
Do you think that the US receives deference in the UN and on the world stage because it is a union of states or because it is considered to be an economic powerhouse with a powerful military and a strong central government? The rest of the world is not concerned about provincial political ideals, it only cares about federal political leadership and its direction. Nations interact on the world stage and in order to be taken seriously, they need a national perspective i.e. that they speak for the nation. If reduced to simply a security function, with 50 bosses, the US would become a weak member, constantly waiting for permission from a committee to respond in the bulk of international situations. The Constitution did not contemplate the evolution of world politics or alternatively America as a major power in the world.

Chris

10-12-2017, 08:24 PM

Do you think that the US receives deference in the UN and on the world stage because it is a union of states or because it is considered to be an economic powerhouse with a powerful military and a strong central government? The rest of the world is not concerned about provincial political ideals, it only cares about federal political leadership and its direction. Nations interact on the world stage and in order to be taken seriously, they need a national perspective i.e. that they speak for the nation. If reduced to simply a security function, with 50 bosses, the US would become a weak member, constantly waiting for permission from a committee to respond in the bulk of international situations. The Constitution did not contemplate the evolution of world politics or alternatively America as a major power in the world.

You're right. Take Rojava, for instance, a loose federation of a diversity of peoples uniting to fight for independence to run their lives as they see fit. But the great UN fails to recognize them. Not so sure I'd call it successful in living up to its own standards. But Rojava is not a strong, centrally planned state, so who cares.

Dr. Who

10-12-2017, 08:34 PM

You're right. Take Rojava, for instance, a loose federation of a diversity of peoples uniting to fight for independence to run their lives as they see fit. But the great UN fails to recognize them. Not so sure I'd call it successful in living up to its own standards. But Rojava is not a strong, centrally planned state, so who cares.
Sadly, that is the state of affairs in the world. Who would you rather be, Rojava or the USA?

Chris

10-12-2017, 08:44 PM

Sadly, that is the state of affairs in the world. Who would you rather be, Rojava or the USA?

Rojava.

You seem to have this view that statism is the state of the world, always was and always will be, when we know this is so modernly recent as to hardly be a speck in the long stateless existence of man prior, and who knows, no one, least of all you, has a crystal ball to say the world won't see it as a failure to back away from and return to it normal existence.

Dr. Who

10-12-2017, 09:02 PM

Rojava.

You seem to have this view that statism is the state of the world, always was and always will be, when we know this is so modernly recent as to hardly be a speck in the long stateless existence of man prior, and who knows, no one, least of all you, has a crystal ball to say the world won't see it as a failure to back away from and return to it normal existence.

It is what it is. It's not my ideal world, which I have expressed in the past, but it is reality and in this reality, your life expectancy is reduced in many parts of the world if you go walk up the down escalator. Statism is the current state of the world. Whether it will always be so, depends on the evolution of politics and tolerance.

Devil'sAdvocate

10-12-2017, 09:25 PM

Common Sense

10-12-2017, 09:41 PM

I'd assume that one of the primary driving factors is lack of ability for states like California to pay for their welfare programs if the states separated.
Actually, California is one of the states that pays more to the Fed than it takes.

Maybe you meant Mississipi or Kentucky.

Chris

10-12-2017, 10:08 PM

Actually, California is one of the states that pays more to the Fed than it takes.

Maybe you meant Mississipi or Kentucky.

Kind of dumb to pay in more than you take out, no, just sayin'.

donttread

10-13-2017, 07:53 AM

Captdon

10-13-2017, 01:41 PM

The Confederation was working. Just not to the benefit of those who saw gain in a centralized, stronger, federal government.

No, it wasn't. The Convention wasn't called to change the whole government. It was to make the Confederation work better. The whole union was coming apart. I already stated what some of the problems were.

That we got something else from the Convention doesn't change the facts.

Chris

10-13-2017, 02:08 PM

No, it wasn't. The Convention wasn't called to change the whole government. It was to make the Confederation work better. The whole union was coming apart. I already stated what some of the problems were.

That we got something else from the Convention doesn't change the facts.

But it was called by those who weren't satisfied with a weak government and wanted a centralized one instead. It served their interests in business, trade, land speculation, and so on.

Let's be frank, the Federalists weren't exactly federalists.

Sheldon Richman's America's Counter-Revolution: The Constitution Revisited is a brief introduction to what actually happened.

Captdon

10-14-2017, 11:55 AM

I'll give you two, one of whom wrote that as well:

@ http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/08/support-redistribution-shaped-envy-self-interest-not-fairness.html

So if the same guy wrote both, things are a whole lot more complex thant your cherry-picked simplification would suggest.

Written after the war as an apology. The secession documents are as clear as a bright day.

Chris

10-14-2017, 12:23 PM

Written after the war as an apology. The secession documents are as clear as a bright day.

You even sound like crep in your denial.

OK, so let's ignore everything Stephens said before and after the Cornerstone Speech, let's just look at the speech itself.

You and crep and safety and others love to cite a single line of the speech:

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization."

And on that you rest your case that the South fought solely for slavery.

But the very next line in the speech says it was only one cause, the last in a long list:

"This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution."

The rest of the speech looks at all the other causes.

If you don't know the meaning of "immediate" then I suggest you look it up.

donttread

10-14-2017, 12:53 PM

No, it wasn't. The Convention wasn't called to change the whole government. It was to make the Confederation work better. The whole union was coming apart. I already stated what some of the problems were.

That we got something else from the Convention doesn't change the facts.

Our lack of "eternal viglance" created this monster. The states signed away their own power in 1913. Why would a state representative do that? Is it even legal for a state representative to do that?

Captdon

10-15-2017, 01:56 PM

You even sound like crep in your denial.

OK, so let's ignore everything Stephens said before and after the Cornerstone Speech, let's just look at the speech itself.

You and crep and safety and others love to cite a single line of the speech:

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the $#@! in our form of civilization."

And on that you rest your case that the South fought solely for slavery.

But the very next line in the speech says it was only one cause, the last in a long list:

"This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution."

The rest of the speech looks at all the other causes.

If you don't know the meaning of "immediate" then I suggest you look it up.

Look up the resolutions themselves. They say it was slavery as the sole cause. Got that? SOLE. They said it, they wrote it down and they voted for it. Speeches are cheap. Resolutions are actions. The whole war was about slavery and only slavery.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:09 PM

The whole purpose of the convention was to make the Confederation work. It didn't.

You said the thirteen states couldn't exist on their own. That statement is false. Between 1775 and 1789, they did exist on their own.

And the idea that the confederation didn't "work" is equally false. The fact that America won her independence from the British empire while confederated should be the first indication that it was an effective form of government.

What you really mean to say is that the confederation didn't "work" for bankers, landed aristocrats, powerful lawyers, and east coast merchants, among others. It was working just fine for the rest of America.

1783-1787 showed them that.

How?

There was no real government during the revolution.

There were thirteen governments who confederated together and won their independence from the most powerful empire in the world. Seems "real" enough to me.

What's an international port. Where does on exist?

An international port is simply a port that is utilized by more than one nation for the purposes of international travel and trade. They exist in virtually every country in the world.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:13 PM

Do you think that the US receives deference in the UN and on the world stage because it is a union of states or because it is considered to be an economic powerhouse with a powerful military and a strong central government? The rest of the world is not concerned about provincial political ideals, it only cares about federal political leadership and its direction. Nations interact on the world stage and in order to be taken seriously, they need a national perspective i.e. that they speak for the nation. If reduced to simply a security function, with 50 bosses, the US would become a weak member, constantly waiting for permission from a committee to respond in the bulk of international situations. The Constitution did not contemplate the evolution of world politics or alternatively America as a major power in the world.

America would have a strong economy and powerful military regardless. And in case you forgot, America engaged in effective foreign diplomacy and trade during the revolution. So much so that she won her independence from the richest and most powerful empire in existence at the time.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:14 PM

Sadly, that is the state of affairs in the world. Who would you rather be, Rojava or the USA?
False choice. The idea that the American states would become weak or ineffectual simply because they became confederated instead of united is asinine and baseless.

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:14 PM

Look up the resolutions themselves. They say it was slavery as the sole cause. Got that? SOLE. They said it, they wrote it down and they voted for it. Speeches are cheap. Resolutions are actions. The whole war was about slavery and only slavery.

We were discussing Stephen's speech as the basis for your argument. Now that's debunked you shift to some other document? That some said it even is not evidence the entire South agreed. That's like saying everyone agrees with Trump.

Link to this new source?

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:15 PM

I'd assume that one of the primary driving factors is lack of ability for states like California to pay for their welfare programs if the states separated.
I'm sure that's a factor. But California could save lots of money by lowering its spending on police statism and militarism.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:16 PM

I already stated what some of the problems were.
You did? I must have missed that.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:18 PM

Look up the resolutions themselves. They say it was slavery as the sole cause. Got that? SOLE. They said it, they wrote it down and they voted for it. Speeches are cheap. Resolutions are actions. The whole war was about slavery and only slavery.
Yea, and Barack Obama signed Obamacare into law. That must mean the entire USA was in favor of Obamacare, according to your logic.

AZ Jim

10-15-2017, 02:20 PM

I'd love to see the red states survive without the income produced by the blue states. As an example California alone is the 5th largest economy in the world!

AZ Jim

10-15-2017, 02:21 PM

Yea, and Barack Obama signed Obamacare into law. That must mean the entire USA was in favor of Obamacare, according to your logic.https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/03/07/poll-majority-americans-want-to-keep-obamacare/98854446/

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:26 PM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/03/07/poll-majority-americans-want-to-keep-obamacare/98854446/

7%

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:27 PM

I'd love to see the red states survive without the income produced by the blue states. As an example California alone is the 5th largest economy in the world!
You're aware that the states could still trade with one another, right?

AZ Jim

10-15-2017, 02:28 PM

7%WRONG! 51% want it retained 41% want it scrapped.

Ethereal

10-15-2017, 02:29 PM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/03/07/poll-majority-americans-want-to-keep-obamacare/98854446/
https://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/slide4.png?w=600&h=450&crop=1

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:30 PM

I'd love to see the red states survive without the income produced by the blue states. As an example California alone is the 5th largest economy in the world!

You do realize that came out almost a decade ago, even then based on old data, and assuming there's something that can be permanently labeled a red or blue state.

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:31 PM

WRONG! 51% want it retained 41% want it scrapped.

51% want it changed, Jim, read your own links. Only 7% are happy with it.

AZ Jim

10-15-2017, 02:32 PM

You do realize that came out almost a decade ago, even then based on old data, and assuming there's something that can be permanently labeled a red or blue state.It's still true sonny. Now run along you'll be late for your paper route.

Dr. Who

10-15-2017, 02:32 PM

False choice. The idea that the American states would become weak or ineffectual simply because they became confederated instead of united is asinine and baseless.
There is no example in the world today of a true confederation, let alone one comprised of 50 sovereign nations or states. I wonder why that is?

AZ Jim

10-15-2017, 02:36 PM

51% want it changed, Jim, read your own links. Only 7% are happy with it.BUT 51% want it kept and yes some want to improve it BUT KEEP IT!!!

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:37 PM

There is no example in the world today of a true confederation, let alone one comprised of 50 sovereign nations or states. I wonder why that is?

You cannot get to what ought to be from what is. Logical fallacy.

Chris

10-15-2017, 02:37 PM

It's still true sonny. Now run along you'll be late for your paper route.

Wow, amazing argument there, Jim, amazing, simply amazing.

Dr. Who

10-15-2017, 03:03 PM

You cannot get to what ought to be from what is. Logical fallacy.
There are historical examples, however, few lasted even 100 years and none involved anything like 50 states. That is no logical fallacy.

Under a confederal arrangement, in contrast with a federal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism) one, the central authority is relatively weak.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-3) Decisions made by the general government in a unicameral legislature, a council of the member states, require subsequent implementation by the member states to take effect. They are therefore not laws acting directly upon the individual, but instead have more the character of inter-state agreements.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-4) Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government. These problematic features, limiting the effectiveness of the union, mean that political pressure tends to build over time for the transition to a federal system of government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism), as happened in the American, Swiss, German and European cases of regional integration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

Chris

10-15-2017, 03:13 PM

There are historical examples, however, few lasted even 100 years and none involved anything like 50 states. That is no logical fallacy.

Under a confederal arrangement, in contrast with a federal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism) one, the central authority is relatively weak.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-3) Decisions made by the general government in a unicameral legislature, a council of the member states, require subsequent implementation by the member states to take effect. They are therefore not laws acting directly upon the individual, but instead have more the character of inter-state agreements.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-4) Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government. These problematic features, limiting the effectiveness of the union, mean that political pressure tends to build over time for the transition to a federal system of government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism), as happened in the American, Swiss, German and European cases of regional integration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

Facts aren't fallacies. It was your attempt at arguing the naturalistic fallacy that was.

The remainder of your post drifts off unrelated to the post you're replying to.

Dr. Who

10-15-2017, 05:04 PM

Facts aren't fallacies. It was your attempt at arguing the naturalistic fallacy that was.

The remainder of your post drifts off unrelated to the post you're replying to.

Since I was responding to the notion that I am misguided in my belief that a confederacy would be weak, notwithstanding your unsolicited and extraneous comment regarding logical fallacy, the rest of my post goes on to respond to the question that I originally posed. I'll thank you to kindly refrain from trying to drag my posts off topic with your fixation regarding logical fallacy.

Peter1469

10-15-2017, 05:14 PM

I'd love to see the red states survive without the income produced by the blue states. As an example California alone is the 5th largest economy in the world!

But they are broke. Spending problems.

Chris

10-15-2017, 05:42 PM

Since I was responding to the notion that I am misguided in my belief that a confederacy would be weak, notwithstanding your unsolicited and extraneous comment regarding logical fallacy, the rest of my post goes on to respond to the question that I originally posed. I'll thank you to kindly refrain from trying to drag my posts off topic with your fixation regarding logical fallacy.

I pointed out your logical fallacy. You can't go from facts to truth via fallacy. That directly addresses what you posted. I simply reques that if you quote me you actually address what you post and not wander off into somethingthing else as if you're responding. It's rude.

MisterVeritis

10-15-2017, 05:44 PM

As disagreeable as people are, it would take a generation and 1,000 pages just to come up with a new Bill of Rights
No. It will take one convention of States to propose amendments and one ratification process. If we chose to we could do both steps in less than a year.

Dr. Who

10-15-2017, 05:45 PM

I pointed out your logical fallacy. You can't go from facts to truth via fallacy. That directly addresses what you posted. I simply reques that if you quote me you actually address what you post and not wander off into somethingthing else as if you're responding. It's rude.

Who asked you to? It's annoying.

Chris

10-15-2017, 05:51 PM

Who asked you to? It's annoying.

As always, the one who points it out is to blame for another's fallacious argument.

Kacper

10-15-2017, 06:28 PM

No. It will take one convention of States to propose amendments and one ratification process. If we chose to we could do both steps in less than a year.

You overestimate the willingness of people to agree.

donttread

10-16-2017, 07:42 AM

There is no example in the world today of a true confederation, let alone one comprised of 50 sovereign nations or states. I wonder why that is?

Because American citizens failed in their duty and allowed "the grand experiment" to be usurped by the feds and their megacorp masters. State autonomy WAS what American exceptionism was. Now there is no such thing, just another federally dominated nation in a world full of them with similar problems , a control all in her path attitude and 1 possible solution to problems instead pf 50.

ripmeister

10-16-2017, 01:05 PM

I'd assume that one of the primary driving factors is lack of ability for states like California to pay for their welfare programs if the states separated.
LOL! You need to check your stats on the payers and the takers.

MisterVeritis

10-16-2017, 01:07 PM

You overestimate the willingness of people to agree.
It helps to try.

Ethereal

10-17-2017, 01:48 PM

There is no example in the world today of a true confederation, let alone one comprised of 50 sovereign nations or states. I wonder why that is?

One could argue the "international order" is an example of a loosely confederated set of sovereign nations who maintain their independence while cooperating through treaties.

But even if we take your assertion at face value, the explanation for this is rather simple. It's not because confederations are a bad idea, but because the ruling classes (and their dupes) prefer consolidated governments to decentralized ones.

Chris

10-17-2017, 02:11 PM

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 06:00 PM

One could argue the "international order" is an example of a loosely confederated set of sovereign nations who maintain their independence while cooperating through treaties.

But even if we take your assertion at face value, the explanation for this is rather simple. It's not because confederations are a bad idea, but because the ruling classes (and their dupes) prefer consolidated governments to decentralized ones.
While I don't reject your assertion out of hand, I think that it's really more a case of it being too difficult to maintain in the long term. At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away. In a sense, it's rule by committee, which is very difficult, since unanimity is required for any vote to pass and the more members in the committee, the less likely that unanimity will be achieved. None of the historical examples had more than 3 or 4.

I think an economic union is easier to maintain on a confederated basis, but when you toss defense and international relations into the mix, it gets more complicated.
,

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 06:05 PM

The EU is another example.

But even if there were none, I still argue that's not reason to believe that's the way things should be, just the way things are, for now, for this brief part of history.
The EU is an economic union and not technically a confederation or confederacy:

Due to its unique nature, and the political sensitivities surrounding it, there is no common or legal classification for the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) (EU). However, it does bear some resemblance to both a confederation[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-14) (or a "new" type of confederation) and a federation.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-15) The EU operates common economic policies with hundreds of common laws, which enable a single economic market, open internal borders, a common currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) among most member-states and allow for numerous other areas where powers have been transferred and directly applicable laws are made. However, unlike a federation, the EU does not have exclusive powers over foreign affairs, defence and taxation. Furthermore, laws sometimes must be transcribed into national law by national parliaments; decisions by member states are taken by special majorities with blocking minorities accounted for; and treaty amendment requires ratification by every member state before it can come into force.

However, academic observers more usually discuss the EU in the terms of it being a federation.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-Josselin2006-16)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-17) As international law professor Joseph H. H. Weiler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_H._H._Weiler) (of the Hague Academy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Academy_of_International_Law) and New York University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_University)) wrote, "Europe has charted its own brand of constitutional federalism".[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-18) Jean-Michel Josselin and Alain Marciano see the European Court of Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice) in Luxembourg City as being a primary force behind building a federal legal order in the Union[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-19) with Josselin stating that a "complete shift from a confederation to a federation would have required to straight-forwardly replace the principality of the member states vis-à-vis the Union by that of the European citizens. As a consequence, both confederate and federate features coexist in the judicial landscape".[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-20)Rutgers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers_University) political science professor R. Daniel Kelemen observed: "Those uncomfortable using the 'F' word in the EU context should feel free to refer to it as a quasi-federal or federal-like system. Nevertheless, the EU has the necessary attributes of a federal system. It is striking that while many scholars of the EU continue to resist analyzing it as a federation, most contemporary students of federalism view the EU as a federal system".[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-A_Political_Theory_of_Federalism-21) Thomas Risse and Tanja A. Börzel claim that the "EU only lacks two significant features of a federation. First, the Member States remain the 'masters' of the treaties, i.e., they have the exclusive power to amend or change the constitutive treaties of the EU. Second, the EU lacks a real 'tax and spend' capacity, in other words, there is no fiscal federalism."[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-22)

Valéry Giscard d'Estaing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valéry_Giscard_d'Estaing), the chairman of the body of experts commissioned to elaborate a constitutional charter for the European Union, was confronted with strong opposition from the United Kingdom towards including the words 'federal' or 'federation' in the European Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe), and hence replaced the word with either 'Community' or 'Union'.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-23)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

Chris

10-17-2017, 06:11 PM

The EU is an economic union and not technically a confederation or confederacy:

Due to its unique nature, and the political sensitivities surrounding it, there is no common or legal classification for the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union) (EU). However, it does bear some resemblance to both a confederation[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-14) (or a "new" type of confederation) and a federation.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-15) The EU operates common economic policies with hundreds of common laws, which enable a single economic market, open internal borders, a common currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) among most member-states and allow for numerous other areas where powers have been transferred and directly applicable laws are made. However, unlike a federation, the EU does not have exclusive powers over foreign affairs, defence and taxation. Furthermore, laws sometimes must be transcribed into national law by national parliaments; decisions by member states are taken by special majorities with blocking minorities accounted for; and treaty amendment requires ratification by every member state before it can come into force.

However, academic observers more usually discuss the EU in the terms of it being a federation.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-Josselin2006-16)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-17) As international law professor Joseph H. H. Weiler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_H._H._Weiler) (of the Hague Academy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Academy_of_International_Law) and New York University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_University)) wrote, "Europe has charted its own brand of constitutional federalism".[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-18) Jean-Michel Josselin and Alain Marciano see the European Court of Justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Justice) in Luxembourg City as being a primary force behind building a federal legal order in the Union[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-19) with Josselin stating that a "complete shift from a confederation to a federation would have required to straight-forwardly replace the principality of the member states vis-à-vis the Union by that of the European citizens. As a consequence, both confederate and federate features coexist in the judicial landscape".[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-20)Rutgers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers_University) political science professor R. Daniel Kelemen observed: "Those uncomfortable using the 'F' word in the EU context should feel free to refer to it as a quasi-federal or federal-like system. Nevertheless, the EU has the necessary attributes of a federal system. It is striking that while many scholars of the EU continue to resist analyzing it as a federation, most contemporary students of federalism view the EU as a federal system".[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-A_Political_Theory_of_Federalism-21) Thomas Risse and Tanja A. Börzel claim that the "EU only lacks two significant features of a federation. First, the Member States remain the 'masters' of the treaties, i.e., they have the exclusive power to amend or change the constitutive treaties of the EU. Second, the EU lacks a real 'tax and spend' capacity, in other words, there is no fiscal federalism."[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-22)

Valéry Giscard d'Estaing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valéry_Giscard_d'Estaing), the chairman of the body of experts commissioned to elaborate a constitutional charter for the European Union, was confronted with strong opposition from the United Kingdom towards including the words 'federal' or 'federation' in the European Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe), and hence replaced the word with either 'Community' or 'Union'.[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation#cite_note-23)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

"The EU is ... not technically a confederation.... 'However, it does bear some resemblance to both a confederation[14] (or a "new" type of confederation) and a federation.... However, academic observers more usually discuss the EU in the terms of it being a federation.'"

You say it's not, your source says it is.

You still fail to address the logical fallcy in your argument.

I understand you cannot.

Chris

10-17-2017, 06:14 PM

While I don't reject your assertion out of hand, I think that it's really more a case of it being too difficult to maintain in the long term. At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away. In a sense, it's rule by committee, which is very difficult, since unanimity is required for any vote to pass and the more members in the committee, the less likely that unanimity will be achieved. None of the historical examples had more than 3 or 4.

I think an economic union is easier to maintain on a confederated basis, but when you toss defense and international relations into the mix, it gets more complicated.
,

You're describing the International situation that results from a world of nation-states. "At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away." Or go to war. Funny how you support a system that by your definitions and logic fails.

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 06:20 PM

"The EU is ... not technically a confederation.... 'However, it does bear some resemblance to both a confederation[14] (or a "new" type of confederation) and a federation.... However, academic observers more usually discuss the EU in the terms of it being a federation.'"

You say it's not, your source says it is.

You still fail to address the logical fallcy in your argument.

I understand you cannot.
It's not exactly a confederation because it lacks all of the elements of a confederation. It's missing defense, foreign affairs and taxation. Please read the entirety of the quotation which clearly concludes that the EU is not a confederation, despite bearing some resemblance to one.

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 06:42 PM

You're describing the International situation that results from a world of nation-states. "At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away." Or go to war. Funny how you support a system that by your definitions and logic fails.
They might walk away because they don't want to go to war or fund a war or for some economic reason or because of taxation. The fact remains that they are both difficult to maintain and tend to be viewed as weak from a national point of view.

I know this is a popular notion amongst libertarians, but unlike a business that involves a whole group of libertarians who have a political desire to make such a loose structure work, disparate sovereignties may also have disparate politics within their constituencies and within their own elections may choose a representative who will assert the will of his or her electorate, which may not echo the sentiments of the rest of the confederacy.

Chris

10-17-2017, 07:23 PM

It's not exactly a confederation because it lacks all of the elements of a confederation. It's missing defense, foreign affairs and taxation. Please read the entirety of the quotation which clearly concludes that the EU is not a confederation, despite bearing some resemblance to one.

Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union provides for substantial military integration within the institutional framework of the union:[2]

Article 42.2 provides for complete integration, which would require unanimity in the European Council of heads of state or government and has as such been blocked by the United Kingdom, which is the main opponent of EU defence integration[3], in particular. (The United Kingdom is however scheduled to withdraw from the union in 2019.)
Article 42.6 enables the armed forces of a subset of member states to establish permanent structured cooperation (PESCO) between themselves. As of 2017 this option has not been used, despite calls by prominent leaders such as former French President Nicolas Sarkozy, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, former Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini and former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt for a common defence for the Union.[4][5][6]

@ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_European_Union

You'll find similar for foreign affairs and taxation.

Chris

10-17-2017, 07:30 PM

They might walk away because they don't want to go to war or fund a war or for some economic reason or because of taxation. The fact remains that they are both difficult to maintain and tend to be viewed as weak from a national point of view.

I know this is a popular notion amongst libertarians, but unlike a business that involves a whole group of libertarians who have a political desire to make such a loose structure work, disparate sovereignties may also have disparate politics within their constituencies and within their own elections may choose a representative who will assert the will of his or her electorate, which may not echo the sentiments of the rest of the confederacy.

Do you deliberately miss the point or just avoid it?

Your criticism of a confederation parallels that for the collection of nation states that exist today. In both cases members can walk away or go to war. Makes no difference. Therefore, you are either criticising what you argumentatively support or the criticism isn't valid.

The argument you have with libertarian confederation--wny they're suddenlt libertarian, who knows--but again the same argument applies to the collection of nation states that exist today: "disparate sovereignties may also have disparate politics within their constituencies and within their own elections may choose a representative who will assert the will of his or her electorate, which may not echo the sentiments of the rest of the [the nation states]"--only one word changes, but the criticism applies to both. Makes no difference. Therefore, you are either criticising what you argumentatively support or the criticism isn't valid.

In short, you're arguing with yourself.

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 07:51 PM

Do you deliberately miss the point or just avoid it?

Your criticism of a confederation parallels that for the collection of nation states that exist today. In both cases members can walk away or go to war. Makes no difference. Therefore, you are either criticising what you argumentatively support or the criticism isn't valid.

The argument you have with libertarian confederation--wny they're suddenlt libertarian, who knows--but again the same argument applies to the collection of nation states that exist today: "disparate sovereignties may also have disparate politics within their constituencies and within their own elections may choose a representative who will assert the will of his or her electorate, which may not echo the sentiments of the rest of the [the nation states]"--only one word changes, but the criticism applies to both. Makes no difference. Therefore, you are either criticising what you argumentatively support or the criticism isn't valid.

In short, you're arguing with yourself.
You missed the central point. Unanimity. In nations with centralized control, plurality determines the success of a vote. In a true confederacy, there must be unanimity. Address that. It is the singular biggest issue with confederacies and the reason that they tend to disintigrate.

Chris

10-17-2017, 08:03 PM

You missed the central point. Unanimity. In nations with centralized control, plurality determines the success of a vote. In a true confederacy, there must be unanimity. Address that. It is the singular biggest issue with confederacies and the reason that they tend to disintigrate.

No, now you're changing your argument. You were criticizing confederacies for lacking unanimity because any could walk away, when the same criticism applies to the collection of nation-states we now live under. You were arguing with yourself. So I guess I understand you want to change tack.

In nations with centralized control, plurality determines the success of a vote. In a true confederacy, there must be unanimity. Address that.

Put that in words that have some meaning. Plurality? Do you mean a majority, but what nation states operate under majoritarian government? That requires direct democracy. So, no, your "rule" is not rule at all. The US is not majoritarian, nor is your Canada, nor any of Europe except Switzerland. --So, restate your "rule" about nations in some meaningful way. Or was that the nation-state as you idealize it in your imagination?

And "In a true confederacy, there must be unanimity" is what besides a no true Scotsman? The US under the Articles of Confederation had little unanimity and yet they survived, even prospered. So again, what are you even talking about.

And let's not forget your original fallacious claim that was is ought to be. Defend it, come on, tell us how you get from is to ought to be?

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 09:00 PM

No, now you're changing your argument. You were criticizing confederacies for lacking unanimity because any could walk away, when the same criticism applies to the collection of nation-states we now live under. You were arguing with yourself. So I guess I understand you want to change tack.

Put that in words that have some meaning. Plurality? Do you mean a majority, but what nation states operate under majoritarian government? That requires direct democracy. So, no, your "rule" is not rule at all. The US is not majoritarian, nor is your Canada, nor any of Europe except Switzerland. --So, restate your "rule" about nations in some meaningful way. Or was that the nation-state as you idealize it in your imagination?

And "In a true confederacy, there must be unanimity" is what besides a no true Scotsman? The US under the Articles of Confederation had little unanimity and yet they survived, even prospered. So again, what are you even talking about.

And let's not forget your original fallacious claim that was is ought to be. Defend it, come on, tell us how you get from is to ought to be?
Good grief. I said from the beginning that unanimity was the most serious issue. What in the world are you talking about? Majority rules in Congress and in the Senate. That's why the GOP is worried about upcoming senate elections. Unanimity is part of the definition of a confederation. Please reread the Wiki link.

The American Confederation lasted 8 years before the constitution was written. The Southern Confederacy lasted 4 years.

It is noteworthy just how weak the office of the president is in the Articles. There is a presiding council drawn from state congressional delegate-nominated members, and the president leads this council. But he is not allowed to serve any more than one year out of three. In some regards this resembles the current system of Switzerland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Council), and it really does check executive power.

The legislature is set up to have only one house, with equal representation for all states and term limits on delegates (each state gets one vote but two to seven delegates). While I wouldn’t opt for such a system today, in an era plagued by gridlock, gerrymandering and out-of-touch professional politicians, I can’t say it sounds crazy.

More worrisome is that the Articles themselves can’t be changed without the unanimous approval of the states.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-23/america-had-a-government-before-the-constitution

Chris

10-17-2017, 09:31 PM

Good grief. I said from the beginning that unanimity was the most serious issue. What in the world are you talking about? Majority rules in Congress and in the Senate. That's why the GOP is worried about upcoming senate elections. Unanimity is part of the definition of a confederation. Please reread the Wiki link.

The American Confederation lasted 8 years before the constitution was written. The Southern Confederacy lasted 4 years.

It is noteworthy just how weak the office of the president is in the Articles. There is a presiding council drawn from state congressional delegate-nominated members, and the president leads this council. But he is not allowed to serve any more than one year out of three. In some regards this resembles the current system of Switzerland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Council), and it really does check executive power.

The legislature is set up to have only one house, with equal representation for all states and term limits on delegates (each state gets one vote but two to seven delegates). While I wouldn’t opt for such a system today, in an era plagued by gridlock, gerrymandering and out-of-touch professional politicians, I can’t say it sounds crazy.

More worrisome is that the Articles themselves can’t be changed without the unanimous approval of the states.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-23/america-had-a-government-before-the-constitution

I think you ought to go back to your earlier posts.

Here, http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/89483-Why-Should-the-States-Be-quot-United-quot?p=2183932&viewfull=1#post2183932, you argued "it's really more a case of it being too difficult to maintain in the long term. At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away." Subsequent posts argued about defining confederations like the EU

You were arguing the advantages of a collection of nation-states over a collection of confederated states. But, again, that criticism also applied to your collection of nation-states. You argued against yourself.

A dozen posts later you changed your topic to unanimity: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/89483-Why-Should-the-States-Be-quot-United-quot?p=2184123&viewfull=1#post2184123

I didn't miss it because you had been arguing something else entirely, as I just demonstrated.

How many people am I arguing with logged into your account?

"Unanimity is part of the definition of a confederation" is only true if you favor a string cedntralized government that can dictate to it's states or its people.

And then you go back arguing about confederations of states. Makes my head spin.

And, wow, you found an opinion like yours. Problem with that is the notion the US under the Articles failed was help only by some while it was resisted by others because they favored it's limitations over returning to the centralized sort of government they'd fought a revolution against.

And your argument against conferations of states still applies equally to a collection of nation-states, the very thing you favor. So you're once against arguing with yourself.

Dr. Who

10-17-2017, 10:04 PM

I think you ought to go back to your earlier posts.

Here, http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/89483-Why-Should-the-States-Be-quot-United-quot?p=2183932&viewfull=1#post2183932, you argued "it's really more a case of it being too difficult to maintain in the long term. At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others. If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away." Subsequent posts argued about defining confederations like the EU

You were arguing the advantages of a collection of nation-states over a collection of confederated states. But, again, that criticism also applied to your collection of nation-states. You argued against yourself.

A dozen posts later you changed your topic to unanimity: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/89483-Why-Should-the-States-Be-quot-United-quot?p=2184123&viewfull=1#post2184123

I didn't miss it because you had been arguing something else entirely, as I just demonstrated.

How many people am I arguing with logged into your account?

"Unanimity is part of the definition of a confederation" is only true if you favor a string cedntralized government that can dictate to it's states or its people.

And then you go back arguing about confederations of states. Makes my head spin.

And, wow, you found an opinion like yours. Problem with that is the notion the US under the Articles failed was help only by some while it was resisted by others because they favored it's limitations over returning to the centralized sort of government they'd fought a revolution against.

And your argument against conferations of states still applies equally to a collection of nation-states, the very thing you favor. So you're once against arguing with yourself.

Look up the definition of Confederation - nevermind, I provided it. It states specifically that unanimity is central to the definition as is secession. Argue with the definition with all of those who make political science a career.

Do you not understand that members walking away is a consequence of the failure of unanimity and that the disintegration of the membership is the reason why such Confederations fail? I'm not going to argue your argument for you. It's on you to prove that it can work. History suggests that it cannot, which is why so many confederacies have either transitioned to federalism or simply split up. I have not argued against myself, but you have failed to substantiate how it could work in the long term.

Problem with that is the notion the US under the Articles failed was help only by some while it was resisted by others because they favored it's limitations over returning to the centralized sort of government they'd fought a revolution against.

Perhaps because they were students of history and understood why Confederations don't last.

Chris

10-18-2017, 09:22 AM

Look up the definition of Confederation - nevermind, I provided it. It states specifically that unanimity is central to the definition as is secession. Argue with the definition with all of those who make political science a career.

Do you not understand that members walking away is a consequence of the failure of unanimity and that the disintegration of the membership is the reason why such Confederations fail? I'm not going to argue your argument for you. It's on you to prove that it can work. History suggests that it cannot, which is why so many confederacies have either transitioned to federalism or simply split up. I have not argued against myself, but you have failed to substantiate how it could work in the long term.

Perhaps because they were students of history and understood why Confederations don't last.

Look up the definition of Confederation - nevermind, I provided it. It states specifically that unanimity is central to the definition as is secession.

This is what your source, wikipedia, says on that: "Also, decision-making in the general government usually proceeds by consensus (unanimity) and not by majority, which makes for a slow and inefficient government." That's not the same as what you're saying. You're saying it's a negative, and well you would because you prefer a strong, centralized government that can force things on the people. But the definition is not so biased, it's neutral inasmuch, as I've said, not everyone wants a fast acting efficient government but just the opposite, would prefer in fact that the government stay out of their lives.

Also, that definition doesn't fit the facts of the Articles of Confederation where decisions were made by voting a majority. Only revision of the Articles required unanimity.

And, now, once again, the same thing you criticize a confederacy for applies equally to a collection of nation-states. Members can walk away from unitions like the EU and walk away from any treaty.

Moreover, it applies to any nation-state itself. Making laws in the US and CA and every other nation-state requires a consensus majority vote. Members can walk away by secession.

Nations of any sort do not last. Where's the Roman Empire? The Third Reich? The USSR?

I think your problem is you study theories and dictionary definitions rather than the reality of politics around you.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 02:47 PM

While I don't reject your assertion out of hand, I think that it's really more a case of it being too difficult to maintain in the long term. At some point or other one or more of the sovereign states will be at odds with the others.

Which is no different than how the international order has operated for centuries, or how factions within a consolidated government behave. The benefit of confederation over consolidation is that when these disputes arise, peaceful separation is still an option. But under a consolidated form of government, it is not. That is why highly consolidated forms of government experience so much internal strife and war.

If the issue is important enough, the oppositional state will walk away. In a sense, it's rule by committee, which is very difficult, since unanimity is required for any vote to pass and the more members in the committee, the less likely that unanimity will be achieved. None of the historical examples had more than 3 or 4.

I think an economic union is easier to maintain on a confederated basis, but when you toss defense and international relations into the mix, it gets more complicated.

Confederation should only be limited to those specific areas where agreement exists. In all others, each entity maintains its independence. It's exactly how the USA and Canada relate to one another. That hasn't been overly cumbersome or contentious, so why would it be that way for the states?

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 02:51 PM

They might walk away because they don't want to go to war or fund a war or for some economic reason or because of taxation.

Then they walk away. So what? When the US went to war in Vietnam, Canada withheld their support. When the US went to war in Iraq, Canada withheld their support. This is called democracy. It's a good thing.

The fact remains that they are both difficult to maintain and tend to be viewed as weak from a national point of view.

This statement doesn't make any sense to me.

I know this is a popular notion amongst libertarians, but unlike a business that involves a whole group of libertarians who have a political desire to make such a loose structure work, disparate sovereignties may also have disparate politics within their constituencies and within their own elections may choose a representative who will assert the will of his or her electorate, which may not echo the sentiments of the rest of the confederacy.

So what? How is that any different than how competing factions operate from within a consolidated political system?

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 02:56 PM

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 03:09 PM

Look up the definition of Confederation - nevermind, I provided it.

Your definition of a confederation could just as easily apply to the relationship between the USA and Canada. We each maintain independent political systems while cooperating through treaties. Seems to work just fine. Do you think it would be preferable for the USA and Canada to politically "unite" under a consolidated government? Why or why not?

It states specifically that unanimity is central to the definition as is secession. Argue with the definition with all of those who make political science a career.

We are arguing with it. We've pointed out that the "problem" you cite is the exact same "problem" that characterizes the international order. So unless you think the entire planet should be "united" under a single, global government, I have no idea what your objection is supposed to be based on.

Do you not understand that members walking away is a consequence of the failure of unanimity and that the disintegration of the membership is the reason why such Confederations fail?

The US confederation did not fail. Conversely, consolidated forms of government fail all the time. You seem to be operating under the assumption that your preferred form of government is without any of the flaws you attribute to confederacy. If anything, your preferred form of government tends to magnify those flaws.

I'm not going to argue your argument for you. It's on you to prove that it can work. History suggests that it cannot, which is why so many confederacies have either transitioned to federalism or simply split up. I have not argued against myself, but you have failed to substantiate how it could work in the long term.

If it cannot work, then how do you explain the persistence of the international order? This globalized confederacy has lasted for thousands of years. And it has successfully resisted every single attempt at unification.

Perhaps because they were students of history and understood why Confederations don't last.

Or perhaps they, like so many other ruling classes, personally benefited from a more consolidated form of government.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 03:22 PM

Chris

10-18-2017, 03:22 PM

Your definition of a confederation could just as easily apply to the relationship between the USA and Canada. We each maintain independent political systems while cooperating through treaties. Seems to work just fine. Do you think it would be preferable for the USA and Canada to politically "unite" under a consolidated government? Why or why not?

We are arguing with it. We've pointed out that the "problem" you cite is the exact same "problem" that characterizes the international order. So unless you think the entire planet should be "united" under a single, global government, I have no idea what your objection is supposed to be based on.

The US confederation did not fail. Conversely, consolidated forms of government fail all the time. You seem to be operating under the assumption that your preferred form of government is without any of the flaws you attribute to confederacy. If anything, your preferred form of government tends to magnify those flaws.

If it cannot work, then how do you explain the persistence of the international order? This globalized confederacy has lasted for thousands of years. And it has successfully resisted every single attempt at unification.

Or perhaps they, like so many other ruling classes, personally benefited from a more consolidated form of government.

Your definition of a confederation could just as easily apply to the relationship between the USA and Canada.

Been trying to get that across.

So what we have is not a difference in kind but a difference in scale. It's not a matter of whether this or that kind of government works better but at what scale does governent work better. Obviously, to me anyway, if you want people involved and the government answerable to the people, then the smaller the scale the better. If you want the people merely picking this or that party's nomination and the government so distant from the people it's not answerable but only good at telling people what to do and spending their wealth to do it and restricting their pursuit of happiness so on so forth and bound to fail for those resons, why then of course scale the government up absolutely to a one world government and be done with it.

Chris

10-18-2017, 03:25 PM

If we dedicated a thread to the flaws and failings of consolidated or united forms of government, it would go on for thousands of pages. So why is it, then, that the meager flaws and scant failings of confederacy (many of which are shared by united forms of government) make it unworkable and unrealistic?

James C. Scott's Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed is an eye-opening account of just that.

One of the most ironic aspects of centralized government is, those who push for it also push for diversity, but the one thing centralized government does it destroy all the great diversity in language, measurment, urban development, and so much more that once made every place special.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 03:27 PM

In a republic, the manners, sentiments, and interests of the people should be similar. If this be not the case, there will be a constant clashing of opinions; and the representatives of one part will be continually striving against those of the other. This will retard the operations of government, and prevent such conclusions as will promote the public good. If we apply this remark to the condition of the United States, we shall be convinced that it forbids that we should be one government. The United States includes a variety of climates. The productions of the different parts of the union are very variant, and their interests, of consequence, diverse. Their manners and habits differ as much as their climates and productions; and their sentiments are by no means coincident. The laws and customs of the several states are, in many respects, very diverse, and in some opposite; each would be in favor of its own interests and customs, and, of consequence, a legislature, formed of representatives from the respective parts, would not only be too numerous to act with any care or decision, but would be composed of such heterogenous and discordant principles, as would constantly be contending with each other.
--"Brutus", 1787

We are come hither to preserve the poor commonwealth of Virginia, if it can be possibly done: Something must be done to preserve your liberty and mine: The Confederation; this same despised Government, merits, in my opinion, the highest encomium: It carried us through a long and dangerous war: It rendered us victorious in that bloody conflict with a powerful nation: It has secured us a territory greater than any European monarch possesses: And shall a Government which has been thus strong and vigorous, be accused of imbecility and abandoned for want of energy?
--Patrick Henry

The great easily form associations; the poor and middling class form them with difficulty. If the elections be by plurality, — as probably will be the case in this state, — it is almost certain none but the great will be chosen, for they easily unite their interests: the common people will divide, and their divisions will be promoted by the others. There will be scarcely a chance of their uniting in any other but some great man, unless in some popular demagogue, who will probably be destitute of principle. A substantial yeoman, of sense and discernment, will hardly ever be chosen. From these remarks, it appears that the government will fall into the hands of the few and the great. This will be a government of oppression.
--Melancton Smith

How prophetic.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 03:29 PM

Chris

10-18-2017, 03:43 PM

Yes. It is more than a little odd that people who tend to champion "multiculturalism" are also zealously in favor of "unity". I wonder how they reconcile that in their own minds.

Postmodernism has no criterion by which to reconcile anything. No truth, no reason, no nothing.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 05:04 PM

Which is no different than how the international order has operated for centuries, or how factions within a consolidated government behave. The benefit of confederation over consolidation is that when these disputes arise, peaceful separation is still an option. But under a consolidated form of government, it is not. That is why highly consolidated forms of government experience so much internal strife and war.

Confederation should only be limited to those specific areas where agreement exists. In all others, each entity maintains its independence. It's exactly how the USA and Canada relate to one another. That hasn't been overly cumbersome or contentious, so why would it be that way for the states?

You would have to define the sort of Confederation that you mean, where if members come an go, it wouldn't produce issues with things like "national" trade agreements, the military (if your state secedes, then you are no longer a citizen of the nation - what if your state is now hostile?), currency etc.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 05:11 PM

You would have to define the sort of Confederation that you mean, where if members come an go, it wouldn't produce issues with things like "national" trade agreements, the military (if your state secedes, then you are no longer a citizen of the nation - what if your state is now hostile?), currency etc.
I didn't realize there was a "sort" of confederation. Though they may differ with regards to certain details, in principle, a confederation is simply a confederation. And going by the definition you've been asserting, the relationship between the USA and Canada would qualify since they cooperate on defense and trade while maintaining separate and independent political systems. That's exactly the kind of confederation I envision for America.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 05:21 PM

Then they walk away. So what? When the US went to war in Vietnam, Canada withheld their support. When the US went to war in Iraq, Canada withheld their support. This is called democracy. It's a good thing.

This statement doesn't make any sense to me.

So what? How is that any different than how competing factions operate from within a consolidated political system?

The US and CA are just good neighbors. They belong to the same clubs and have the same friends and shared history, but they are not confederated.

The Constitution of that nation. Most Constitutions do not provide a path for secession. It's kind of like the Mafia, once you're in, your in forever. Nations with central governments may have their internal squabbles, but they are forced to compromise or the federal government enacts some legislation that ends the argument for everyone.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 05:27 PM

The US and CA are just good neighbors. They belong to the same clubs and have the same friends and shared history, but they are not confederated.

How is their relationship effectively any different from a confederation, albeit a very loose one?

The Constitution of that nation. Most Constitutions do not provide a path for secession. It's kind of like the Mafia, once you're in, your in forever. Nations with central governments may have their internal squabbles, but they are forced to compromise or the federal government enacts some legislation that ends the argument for everyone.

I still don't see the difference, especially when those "internal squabbles" often evolve into massively destructive wars between opposing factions. The only difference I can see is that confederation allows for peaceful separation when agreement is not possible whereas unification necessarily engenders a bitter struggle for control.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 05:31 PM

I didn't realize there was a "sort" of confederation. Though they may differ with regards to certain details, in principle, a confederation is simply a confederation. And going by the definition you've been asserting, the relationship between the USA and Canada would qualify since they cooperate on defense and trade while maintaining separate and independent political systems. That's exactly the kind of confederation I envision for America.

That's an even less structured relationship than the EU.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 05:33 PM

That's an even less structured relationship than the EU.
And?

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 05:43 PM

How is their relationship effectively any different from a confederation, albeit a very loose one?

I still don't see the difference, especially when those "internal squabbles" often evolve into massively destructive wars between opposing factions. The only difference I can see is that confederation allows for peaceful separation when agreement is not possible whereas unification necessarily engenders a bitter struggle for control.
I'll give you an example. South America. While the nations of SA should have everything in common and should operate in a far more united fashion, yet they don't. They are divided between those who want to cozy up to the US and those who don't.

Consider NAFTA, which only involves three nations and all of the accusations of government subsidies creating an unfair playing field. Multiply that by 50 states. The arguments would be endless.

Peter1469

10-18-2017, 05:45 PM

I like the federal republic that our founders created. To bad we screwed it up with several moves to consolidate federal power and destroy the authority of the states.

Chris

10-18-2017, 06:32 PM

I'll give you an example. South America. While the nations of SA should have everything in common and should operate in a far more united fashion, yet they don't. They are divided between those who want to cozy up to the US and those who don't.

Consider NAFTA, which only involves three nations and all of the accusations of government subsidies creating an unfair playing field. Multiply that by 50 states. The arguments would be endless.

What if South Americans like their separation and independence, Who? You seem to be judging people by your biases, assuming those biases are good and shared when they're not.

Maybe arguments are important, more important than the intolerant uniformity you seek.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 07:00 PM

What if South Americans like their separation and independence, Who? You seem to be judging people by your biases, assuming those biases are good and shared when they're not.

Maybe arguments are important, more important than the intolerant uniformity you seek.

It's not my problem if they do, however, a number of those nations are rather frustrated that they can't or won't band together in their common issues and create a trading block. Using them as an example is not judging. I was responding to another member's post. US states are probably just as politically divided as SA. So, if not compelled to do so, even a trade agreement like NAFTA would pose significant problems. Much of the investment in America is predicated on its governance and GDP. As a loosely associated collection of states, it would not have the same attraction.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 07:18 PM

I'll give you an example. South America. While the nations of SA should have everything in common and should operate in a far more united fashion, yet they don't. They are divided between those who want to cozy up to the US and those who don't.

Consider NAFTA, which only involves three nations and all of the accusations of government subsidies creating an unfair playing field. Multiply that by 50 states. The arguments would be endless.
This is jumbled and largely non-responsive. I don't know what to make of it.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 07:25 PM

It's not my problem if they do, however, a number of those nations are rather frustrated that they can't or won't band together in their common issues and create a trading block. Using them as an example is not judging. I was responding to another member's post. US states are probably just as politically divided as SA. So, if not compelled to do so, even a trade agreement like NAFTA would pose significant problems. Much of the investment in America is predicated on its governance and GDP. As a loosely associated collection of states, it would not have the same attraction.
So it would be better if South America were united under a consolidated government?

Mister D

10-18-2017, 07:55 PM

I have to admit I was wondering about this myself, Dr. Who I reject libertarian theories on the state. I have no problem with the state per se. That said, you appear to reject less centralized constructs, such as confederacies, but the only alternatives are constructs based on domination and force.

Chris

10-18-2017, 08:08 PM

It's not my problem if they do, however, a number of those nations are rather frustrated that they can't or won't band together in their common issues and create a trading block. Using them as an example is not judging. I was responding to another member's post. US states are probably just as politically divided as SA. So, if not compelled to do so, even a trade agreement like NAFTA would pose significant problems. Much of the investment in America is predicated on its governance and GDP. As a loosely associated collection of states, it would not have the same attraction.

It's not their problem either, it's not a problem at all, except to you. And the people of the socialist nation-state, Venezuela. You're a socialist, aren't you, Who?

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 08:12 PM

So it would be better if South America were united under a consolidated government?

I didn't say that. I was addressing how likely a loose confederation of America states would be to operate cohesively, which I think you know. However, given the tone of your last two posts, I don't suppose it that matters. Enjoy your thread.

Chris

10-18-2017, 08:14 PM

James C. Scott's Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed is an eye-opening account of just that.

One of the most ironic aspects of centralized government is, those who push for it also push for diversity, but the one thing centralized government does it destroy all the great diversity in language, measurment, urban development, and so much more that once made every place special.

I find it interesting that Who doesn't respond to the contradictions inherent in her statist position here.

Here's some on the contradiction known as statism, Hans-Herman Hoppe, Secession, the State, and the Immigration Problem (http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/courses01/rrtw/hoppe.htm)

States, as will be recalled, are also promoters of forced domestic integration. Forced integration is a means of breaking up all intermediate social institutions and hierarchies (in between the state and the individual) such as family, clan, tribe, community, and church and their internal layers and ranks of authority. In so doing the individual is isolated (atomized) and its power of resistance vis-a-vis the state weakened. In the "logic" of the state, a good dose of foreign invasion, especially if it comes from strange and far-away places, is reckoned to further strengthen this tendency. And the present situation offers a particularly opportune time to do so, for in accordance with the inherently centralizing tendency of states and statism generally and promoted here and now in particular by the U.S. as the world’s only remaining superpower, the Western world – or more precisely the neoconservative-socialdemocratic elites controlling the state governments in the U.S. and Western Europe – is committed to the establishment of supra-national states (such as the European Union) and ultimately one world state. National, regional or communal attachments are the main stumbling block on the way toward this goal. A good measure of uninvited foreigners and government imposed multiculturalism is calculated to further weaken and ultimately destroy national, regional, and communal identities and thus promote the goal of a One World Order, led by the U.S., and a new "universal man."

Miss the contradiction? The multiculturalism espoused by so many liberal statists results in uniculturism.

Chris

10-18-2017, 08:17 PM

I didn't say that. I was addressing how likely a loose confederation of America states would be to operate cohesively, which I think you know. However, given the tone of your last two posts, I don't suppose it that matters. Enjoy your thread.

I was addressing how likely a loose confederation of America states would be to operate cohesively

You argue by definitional impossibilities yet in reality confederations of states like those under the Articles of Confederation did cooperate and they were prepared to unite in self-defense.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 08:19 PM

It's not their problem either, it's not a problem at all, except to you. And the people of the socialist nation-state, Venezuela. You're a socialist, aren't you, Who?

Whatever Chris. Perhaps you and your fellow libertarians can have a stimulating nondebate on the subject.

Chris

10-18-2017, 08:21 PM

Whatever Chris. Perhaps you and your fellow libertarians can have a stimulating nondebate on the subject.

Why, you can't?

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 08:41 PM

I have to admit I was wondering about this myself, @Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) I reject libertarian theories on the state. I have no problem with the state per se. That said, you appear to reject less centralized constructs, such as confederacies, but the only alternatives are constructs based on domination and force.

True, although I think that domination and force are harsh terms to describe a democratically elected central government. I do think that America's success and standard of living is due to the union, not in spite of it, whatever its faults. It allows it to be a superpower as opposed to being a collection of individual sovereign states, some of which would not be first world nations, but for the union.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 08:47 PM

I didn't say that. I was addressing how likely a loose confederation of America states would be to operate cohesively, which I think you know.

Well, it's only logical since your argument against a loose confederation of American states can be applied to virtually every relationship between independent countries, including the countries of South America. So I'm merely wondering why you don't apply that logic consistently.

However, given the tone of your last two posts, I don't suppose it that matters. Enjoy your thread.

I asked you specific questions and made specific points and you addressed neither. Instead, you went off on a tangent about South America and NAFTA.

Dr. Who

10-18-2017, 08:49 PM

Why, you can't?

Let's just say I've lost interest in the topic.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 08:51 PM

Whatever Chris. Perhaps you and your fellow libertarians can have a stimulating nondebate on the subject.
You're free to bow out of the debate, but it will only prove my point that there isn't a compelling reason for the American states to remain politically united.

Ethereal

10-18-2017, 09:10 PM

True, although I think that domination and force are harsh terms to describe a democratically elected central government.

To refer to such governments as "democratically elected" is to make a mockery of democracy. In the first place, it presupposes that "elections" and "democracy" are largely interchangeable concepts. If that's the case, then Nazi Germany was just as democratic as Switzerland is today. Secondly, genuine democracy is limited by its scale. 320 million strangers, spread out across thousands of miles of land, casting secret ballots every two to four years is "democracy" only in the most abstract, sterilized form of the word. Noted leftist, Noam Chomsky, refers to the role of US voters as merely ratifying decisions made by the ruling classes. I believe that is a good way of describing the situation. The average voter has no real voice or input. They are there merely to provide the appearance of legitimacy.

I do think that America's success and standard of living is due to the union...

Then why aren't all unitary political systems as successful and prosperous as America? Russia's republics and oblasts are all united under a single political system, for example. So are China's provinces. According to your logic, they should be doing just as well as America. Yet they aren't. And to the extent that they're gaining any ground, it can be attributed in large part to their increasing emphasis on decentralizing their economies.

...not in spite of it, whatever its faults. It allows it to be a superpower as opposed to being a collection of individual sovereign states, some of which would not be first world nations, but for the union.

You've yet to explain why you think this. And what makes you think being a "superpower" is actually a good thing for the average American? As far as I can tell, it just means lots of taxes, lots of debt, and lots of war. Switzerland and Sweden are not "superpowers", yet their people enjoy very high standards of living. So why should the "superpower" status of the USA be a point in favor of union?

donttread

10-19-2017, 05:05 AM

True, although I think that domination and force are harsh terms to describe a democratically elected central government. I do think that America's success and standard of living is due to the union, not in spite of it, whatever its faults. It allows it to be a superpower as opposed to being a collection of individual sovereign states, some of which would not be first world nations, but for the union.

What they are really based upon is control

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 05:22 AM

Federalism. When did we forget what it meant?

Chris

10-19-2017, 08:22 AM

Federalism. When did we forget what it meant?

I think federalism under the Articles was better and the Articles pretty much bound the central government to it.

That is not to denigrate the federalism that remained under the Constitution but the Constitution opened the door to abuses and abused it very much has been.

Ethereal

10-19-2017, 08:34 AM

Federalism. When did we forget what it meant?
1789? Sam Adams and others objected to the newly proposed constitution precisely because they did not believe it was federal in nature. They saw it as a national government, not a federal one. This nuance of the debate was lost in large part because the proponents of the constitution managed to erroneously label people like Sam Adams and Patrick Henry "anti-federalists" despite the fact that they saw themselves as defenders of true federalism. So if there is confusion over what federalism entails, then we can thank the "federalists" themselves for that, since they managed to distort the concept from the very beginning. I mean, when the most influential and notable piece of "anti-federalist" literature from that time period is called "Letter from the FEDERAL Farmer", the propagandistic nature of the distinction between "federalists" and "anti-federalists" becomes rather clear.

Ethereal

10-19-2017, 08:42 AM

It's also important to keep in mind that the best part of the US Constitution - the bill of rights - would not even exist if it hadn't been for the so-called "anti-federalists". The main proponents of the constitution like Hamilton and Madison saw it as unnecessary and only acceded to its inclusion in order to placate their opponents. Can you imagine how totally out of control the US government would be if not for the foresight and wisdom of people like Sam Adams, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, etc.?

Chris

10-19-2017, 08:55 AM

On Federalist and Antifederalist: The Evolution of Terms (http://csac.history.wisc.edu/701.htm)

Since nearly all desired to strengthen the Articles of Confederation, it was shocking to see that the Philadelphia Convention had violated their instructions and created an entirely new constitution. Consequently, as the ratification debate began in the fall of 1787, opponents and supporters of the Constitution were engaged in a marketing campaign and appropriated terms that would bolster their position in the minds of the general public. Those who supported the Constitution, were often branded as nationalists or consolidationists. Other labels included monarchists, aristocrats, royalists, and loyalists. One critic of the Constitution in an item entitled “Fair Play” asserted that, “many of those who arrange themselves under the banners of those who call themselves Federalists were either downright Tories, lukewarm Whigs, or disaffected to the cause of America and the Revolution.” A writer “Cato” countered and went so far as to suggest that the supporters of the Constitution were “of pure Roman extraction, whose lineage may with ease be traced up to Fœdus, a most worthy and virtuous patriot of ancient Rome.”

Those that supported the Constitution would deny these marques and championed the term “federalist.” This effort was an attempt to box the critics of the Constitution into a corner. This would put antifederalists at a disadvantage since they were alleged to be in opposition to the prevailing and preferable form of government that nearly all Americans desired; federal republicanism. It is important to note that at this point in history, when discussing politics, Americans generally used the term “federalist” when describing a political system that featured a collection of smaller states or republics with a limited central government with few powers. Representatives in this type of republic were to demonstrate civic virtue and were directly accountable to the people through frequent elections.

Antifederalists would persistently face the problem of being mislabeled. Throughout the ratification debate, they were steadfast in their attempts to persuade the public that they were indeed the real federalists, insisting that supporters of the Constitution had misappropriated the term in an attempt to hoodwink an unsuspecting public. Antifederalists were confident that once the true nature of the Constitution was exposed, the public would indeed see this deception.

Ethereal

10-19-2017, 09:28 AM

None of the Well-Born Conspirators, Philadelphia Freeman’s Journal, 23 April 1788 (http://csac.history.wisc.edu/35._None_of_the_Well.pdf)

In public disquisitions, especially political controversies, one of the parties generally adopt some cant word or phrase, whereby they may be distinguished from their opponents; and what renders the circumstance remarkably curious, the word or phrase is nineteen times out of twenty wrong applied. Thus in the party politics of Britain, under one administration candor was their shibbolith, when the most abusive, uncandid, and dirty mouthed scoundrels in the kingdom were the favourites of court; under another, œconomy, was the watch-word, yet profuseness and prodigality in public concerns, was then at their ne plus ultra; again, national honor, was buz[z]ed about, when not a fragment of honor, principle, or even national courage could be traced at court; this was in Lord North’s ever memorable administration. Now in an exact agreement with this plan, one of our American political parties, are incessantly bellowing out, federalism, federal measures, federal gentlemen, &c. &c.

If the words, Federal, Federalism, &c. are to be taken in their general and common acceptation, as derived from Fœdus, a league, or covenant, entered into for the mutual advantage of all; there cannot be found a greater abuse of words than in this instance; for our modern federalists, namely, the advocates of the new constitution, evidently aim at nothing but the elevation and aggrandizement of a few over the many. The liberty, property, and every social comfort in life of the yeomanry in America, are to be sacrificed at the altar of tyranny. Federalism then taken in this sense must imply something very remote from its original natural import; it must, (and truly there is no help for saying so) signify a league entered into against the sacred liberties of the people; that is in plain terms a conspiracy; and this is the fifth signification of the word Fœdus, given by Ainsworth in his excellent Latin dictionary. Perhaps the consciences of the conspirators in the dark conclave urged them to assume a name which might be in some measure a key to disclose their perfidy. Conscience is a stern arbiter, and often compels us to witness against ourselves. Accompanied by such a faithful monitor the abettors of despotism adopted an epithet that should, when perfectly understood, be the true index to their base intentions. Take the word Federalism directly or indirectly, and it amounts neither to more nor less in its modern acceptation than a conspiracy of the Well-born few, against the sacred rights and privileges of their fellow citizens.

barb012

10-19-2017, 10:31 AM

rcfieldz

10-19-2017, 10:33 AM

We're all family:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuduYMzY3Dc

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 01:00 PM

I think federalism under the Articles was better and the Articles pretty much bound the central government to it.

That is not to denigrate the federalism that remained under the Constitution but the Constitution opened the door to abuses and abused it very much has been.
The Article of Confederation were flawed in that it neutered the federal government.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 01:06 PM

Chris

10-19-2017, 01:13 PM

The Bill of Rights really wasn't necessary if we took federalism seriously. The federal government ought to stick to Art. 1, sec. 8 - it has no business doing anything else.

Well, the (anti-)federalist were afraid the Bor would be used to limit rights, as has happened with liberals.

As to limiting Congress, the Articles said only those powers explicitly granted and no more could be assumed, the Constitution has an implied powers clause.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 01:34 PM

Well, the (anti-)federalist were afraid the Bor would be used to limit rights, as has happened with liberals.

As to limiting Congress, the Articles said only those powers explicitly granted and no more could be assumed, the Constitution has an implied powers clause.
Under the articles the states could simply not fund the federal government. That is unacceptable.

Chris

10-19-2017, 01:39 PM

Under the articles the states could simply not fund the federal government. That is unacceptable.

For legislated acts it wasn't empowered to enact. Makes sense to me.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 01:40 PM

For legislated acts it wasn't empowered to enact. Makes sense to me.

For anything.

That is why the constitutional convention was called.

Chris

10-19-2017, 01:53 PM

For anything.

That is why the constitutional convention was called.

Article VI speaks to how the military is to be formed: "No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."

Article VIII speaks to how to pay for it: "All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State, granted or surveyed for any person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated according to such mode as the United States in Congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint.

"The taxes for paying that proportion shall be laid and levied by the authority and direction of the legislatures of the several States within the time agreed upon by the United States in Congress assembled."

There was no standing army but Congress could assemble one and had the means to pay for it.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 04:31 PM

Article VI speaks to how the military is to be formed: "No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."

Article VIII speaks to how to pay for it: "All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress assembled, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State, granted or surveyed for any person, as such land and the buildings and improvements thereon shall be estimated according to such mode as the United States in Congress assembled, shall from time to time direct and appoint.

"The taxes for paying that proportion shall be laid and levied by the authority and direction of the legislatures of the several States within the time agreed upon by the United States in Congress assembled."

There was no standing army but Congress could assemble one and had the means to pay for it.

Congress had no money unless the states gave it to them.

No thanks.

Chris

10-19-2017, 04:34 PM

Congress had no money unless the states gave it to them.

No thanks.

Right, but for powers granted in the Articles, the states were committed to fund them, like the military.

But it does come down to a preference for what type of government you want to live under. By this discussion I take it Eth would prefer a weak central government, you would prefer a stronger central government but retain a lot of power in the states--aka, federalism, and Who would like a one world government that dictated even your happiness.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 04:36 PM

Right, but for powers granted in the Articles, the states were committed to fund them, like the military.

But it does come down to a preference for what type of government you want to live under. By this discussion I take it Eth would prefer a weak central government, you would prefer a stronger central government but retain a lot of power in the states--aka, federalism, and Who would like a one world government that dictated even your happiness.
But they weren't funding the central government.

And I don't consider a federal government limited to Art. 1, sec. 8, U.S. Const. as being a strong central government. Certainly not with regards to domestic affairs.

Chris

10-19-2017, 04:49 PM

But they weren't funding the central government.

And I don't consider a federal government limited to Art. 1, sec. 8, U.S. Const. as being a strong central government. Certainly not with regards to domestic affairs.

It's stronger than it was under the Articles.

They weren't funding expansions some who preferred a government like the one only years before they'd revolted against.

Peter1469

10-19-2017, 04:57 PM

It's stronger than it was under the Articles.

They weren't funding expansions some who preferred a government like the one only years before they'd revolted against.
The government our Founders gave us was not anything related to the UK. Had the Articles remained, the US likely would have been carved up by European powers before the mid 1800s.