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Cthulhu
10-12-2017, 01:45 AM
... Is an abusive significant other.

You make the money, it takes the money. It sets rules on what you can and cannot do. If you do not comply you may be killed. If it calls, you better answer, because if it has to come looking for you, an ass kicking usually follows. It tells you what you can and cannot say and to whom.

It lies to you, yet demands the truth. It steals from you, yet if you think to keep a little more of your stuff, it might just lock you up in the basement - or kill you. It also has friends which will smear your name of it is angry with you.

And worst of all, it has a theme song -

https://youtu.be/TH_YbBHVF4g

We condemn this behavior in humans, so why is our government held to a lesser standard?

Sent from my evil cell phone.

stjames1_53
10-12-2017, 04:33 AM
... Is an abusive significant other.

You make the money, it takes the money. It sets rules on what you can and cannot do. If you do not comply you may be killed. If it calls, you better answer, because if it has to come looking for you, an ass kicking usually follows. It tells you what you can and cannot say and to whom.

It lies to you, yet demands the truth. It steals from you, yet if you think to keep a little more of your stuff, it might just lock you up in the basement - or kill you. It also has friends which will smear your name of it is angry with you.

And worst of all, it has a theme song -

https://youtu.be/TH_YbBHVF4g

We condemn this behavior in humans, so why is our government held to a lesser standard?

Sent from my evil cell phone.

like Eth and MV say, we have slipped so far from a Constitutional government...........

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 08:54 AM
We condemn this behavior in humans, so why is our government held to a lesser standard?

Thousands of years of psychological conditioning and brainwashing.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 08:56 AM
Excerpt from No Treason by Lysander Spooner:


...The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: Your money, or your life. And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat.

The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the road side, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful.

The highwayman takes solely upon himself the responsibility, danger, and crime of his own act. He does not pretend that he has any rightful claim to your money, or that he intends to use it for your own benefit. He does not pretend to be anything but a robber. He has not acquired impudence enough to profess to be merely a “protector,” and that he takes men’s money against their will, merely to enable him to “protect” those infatuated travellers, who feel perfectly able to protect themselves, or do not appreciate his peculiar system of protection. He is too sensible a man to make such professions as these. Furthermore, having taken your money, he leaves you, as you wish him to do. He does not persist in following you on the road, against your will; assuming to be your rightful “sovereign,” on account of the “protection” he affords you. He does not keep “protecting” you, by commanding you to bow down and serve him; by requiring you to do this, and forbidding you to do that; by robbing you of more money as often as he finds it for his interest or pleasure to do so; and by branding you as a rebel, a traitor, and an enemy to your country, and shooting you down without mercy, if you dispute his authority, or resist his demands. He is too much of a gentleman to be guilty of such impostures, and insults, and villanies as these. In short, he does not, in addition to robbing you, attempt to make you either his dupe or his slave...

Chris
10-12-2017, 08:56 AM
Madison, Federalist 51: "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 08:57 AM
The OP seems a bit dramatic.

While government does indeed have its issues, the social contract isn't slavery and taxation isn't theft.

Chris
10-12-2017, 08:58 AM
Thomas Paine, Common Sense, "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

Chris
10-12-2017, 09:02 AM
The OP seems a bit dramatic.

While government does indeed have its issues, the social contract isn't slavery and taxation isn't theft.

Huh? Explain that.

And, btw, I signed no such social contract.

To cite Lysander Spooner some more, from NO TREASON, "No. VI. THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY,"

The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but “the people” then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves....

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 09:03 AM
The OP seems a bit dramatic.

The state has killed more people than any organization in human history. Virtually every large scale atrocity ever committed was perpetrated by the state, done using resources it extorted from masses of unwilling individuals. The state also systematically disseminates some of the most socially damaging and heinous lies, lies that keep humanity in a state of fear and ignorance. The fact that this sounds dramatic does not mean it is untrue.


While government does indeed have its issues...

That's putting it mildly.


...the social contract isn't slavery and taxation isn't theft.

It's not actually a "contract", since genuine contracts are characterized by individualized consent. The mass of people living under state authority did not consent to the arrangement, ergo it is not a contract in any legitimate sense of the term. It is merely a state of being that persists due to fear, ignorance, and inertia.

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 09:06 AM
Huh? Explain that.

And, btw, I signed no such social contract.

To cite Lysander Spooner some more, from NO TREASON, "No. VI. THE CONSTITUTION OF NO AUTHORITY,"

The Constitution has no inherent authority or obligation. It has no authority or obligation at all, unless as a contract between man and man. And it does not so much as even purport to be a contract between persons now existing. It purports, at most, to be only a contract between persons living eighty years ago. And it can be supposed to have been a contract then only between persons who had already come to years of discretion, so as to be competent to make reasonable and obligatory contracts. Furthermore, we know, historically, that only a small portion even of the people then existing were consulted on the subject, or asked, or permitted to express either their consent or dissent in any formal manner. Those persons, if any, who did give their consent formally, are all dead now. Most of them have been dead forty, fifty, sixty, or seventy years. And the constitution, so far as it was their contract, died with them. They had no natural power or right to make it obligatory upon their children. It is not only plainly impossible, in the nature of things, that they could bind their posterity, but they did not even attempt to bind them. That is to say, the instrument does not purport to be an agreement between any body but “the people” then existing; nor does it, either expressly or impliedly, assert any right, power, or disposition, on their part, to bind anybody but themselves....

The social contract is a theory, not an actual document. But you know that.

The concept is that your presence in society is a recognition of said agreement. People are always free to leave. But if you enjoy the fruits of this agreement, you are subject to its conditions.

Chris
10-12-2017, 09:11 AM
The social contract is a theory, not an actual document. But you know that.

The concept is that your presence in society is a recognition of said agreement. People are always free to leave. But if you enjoy the fruits of this agreement, you are subject to its conditions.


Ah, yes, I knew it was a theory. Theories are not binding.

Are you advocating suicide?

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 09:49 AM
The concept is that your presence in society is a recognition of said agreement.

According to this peculiar logic, German Jews consented to everything the Nazi government did to them.


People are always free to leave.

What does this even mean? I was born here. My ancestors have lived here for generations. Why should I have to leave simply because I want to be left in peace?


But if you enjoy the fruits of this agreement, you are subject to its conditions.

Once again, you are wrongly presupposing the existence of a legitimate agreement.

nic34
10-12-2017, 09:58 AM
Your gumit today:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-suggests-stock-market-gains-are-reducing-debt

Lol

Cthulhu
10-12-2017, 11:06 AM
The OP seems a bit dramatic.

While government does indeed have its issues, the social contract isn't slavery and taxation isn't theft.

Can you show me my signature on this fabled "social contract"?

Sent from my evil cell phone.

nic34
10-12-2017, 01:35 PM
Can you show me my signature on this fabled "social contract"?

Sent from my evil cell phone.

If you consider yourself an American citizen with all rights and privileges, a Sig is not necessary . Unless of course you want to vote.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 01:39 PM
If you consider yourself an American citizen with all rights and privileges, a Sig is not necessary . Unless of course you want to vote.
Rights are not bestowed upon an individual by virtue of their "citizenship". Their rights are natural and inalienable.

The Xl
10-12-2017, 01:46 PM
Our government is openly evil. They've openly waged war for profit, lied to get into war, declassified, plotted their attacks on their own civilians, declassified, along with a ton of other horrid shit. The cognitive dissonance with those who acknowledge that their are other evil governments, both present and past, but dismiss the US governments openly evil wrongdoing as conspiracy theory, is both amazing and terrifying.

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 02:05 PM
Our government is openly evil. They've openly waged war for profit, lied to get into war, declassified, plotted their attacks on their own civilians, declassified, along with a ton of other horrid shit. The cognitive dissonance with those who acknowledge that their are other evil governments, both present and past, but dismiss the US governments openly evil wrongdoing as conspiracy theory, is both amazing and terrifying.

I don't know about evil. Greedy and corrupt on some levels for sure. But to claim there is evil intent or bad deeds for the sake of bad deeds is out there in my mind. Governments do bad things with good intentions all the time.

The Xl
10-12-2017, 02:09 PM
I don't know about evil. Greedy and corrupt on some levels for sure. But to claim there is evil intent or bad deeds for the sake of bad deeds is out there in my mind. Governments do bad things with good intentions all the time.
I'd label a serial killer as evil, regardless of what his "intent" or state of mind is. I'm not making an exception for the psychopaths and sociopaths in government.

Everyone likes to dismiss things like 9/11 being an inside job as an impossibility and a conspiracy theory, when it's literally declassified that our government lied about the events that led to the Vietnam war and actually planned terror attacks on their own civilians as a pretext to blame the Cubans and start a war. Nope, they're evil and capable of anything.

Chris
10-12-2017, 02:16 PM
If you consider yourself an American citizen with all rights and privileges, a Sig is not necessary . Unless of course you want to vote.

There can be no contract, social, theory, or legal unless one consents to it.

Chris
10-12-2017, 02:17 PM
I don't know about evil. Greedy and corrupt on some levels for sure. But to claim there is evil intent or bad deeds for the sake of bad deeds is out there in my mind. Governments do bad things with good intentions all the time.

And you know what the road to perdition is paved with?

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 02:20 PM
And you know what the road to perdition is paved with?

Good intentions. I agree. Still, that doesn't imply evil.

Evil is a huge leap in my mind.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:24 PM
I don't know about evil. Greedy and corrupt on some levels for sure. But to claim there is evil intent or bad deeds for the sake of bad deeds is out there in my mind. Governments do bad things with good intentions all the time.

Waging massively destructive wars of aggression based on lies and greed isn't evil intent?

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:25 PM
Good intentions. I agree. Still, that doesn't imply evil.

Evil is a huge leap in my mind.

The Nazis had good intentions, too. They were still evil.

The Xl
10-12-2017, 02:29 PM
Waging massively destructive wars of aggression based on lies and greed isn't evil intent?
Or plotting terror attacks on your own people. If that doesn't meet the definition of the word evil, then I have no Earthly idea what does.

Chris
10-12-2017, 02:38 PM
Good intentions. I agree. Still, that doesn't imply evil.

Evil is a huge leap in my mind.

I think you judge consequences, not intentions.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:40 PM
Or plotting terror attacks on your own people. If that doesn't meet the definition of the word evil, then I have no Earthly idea what does.
It's for the greater good, bro.

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 02:43 PM
The Nazis had good intentions, too. They were still evil.
Nazi's? Really?

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
Or plotting terror attacks on your own people. If that doesn't meet the definition of the word evil, then I have no Earthly idea what does.
The US plots terrorist attacks on its own people?

Common Sense
10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
I think you judge consequences, not intentions.
You infer intentions based on the consequences.

The Xl
10-12-2017, 02:45 PM
It's for the greater good, bro.
It's amazing seeing it spun. Terrifying, but amazing.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:45 PM
Nazi's? Really?
The very same.

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:47 PM
The US plots terrorist attacks on its own people?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Ethereal
10-12-2017, 02:49 PM
And then there was Operation Gladio, under the aegis of NATO, that orchestrated false flag attacks in Europe in order to stir up anti-Soviet sentiment during the cold war. It's almost as if the great power, wealth, and secrecy that states accrue to themselves tend to attract people with sociopathic tendencies.

The Xl
10-12-2017, 03:03 PM
The US plots terrorist attacks on its own people?
Northwoods.