Anti-American?

[Ethereal]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.

[Common Sense]

The accusation of being "anti American" comes predominantly from the right.

When I see it coming from the left, it's usually sarcastic.

The reason for that is that some on the right have a much more narrow definition of what makes an American or what makes a patriot. Many on the left have a broader definition.

[Perianne]

Ethereal, I view your objections to the U.S. government as your objections. You are knowledgeable in ways that I am ignorant. While I may not agree with your views, I yield to your knowledge. I don't think I have ever thought or said you are anti-American. I like reading your stuff.

[Common Sense]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.
Sorry for not really addressing your point. I do agree with much of the above.

[Chris]

The accusation of being "anti American" comes predominantly from the right.

When I see it coming from the left, it's usually sarcastic.

The reason for that is that some on the right have a much more narrow definition of what makes an American or what makes a patriot. Many on the left have a broader definition.



From the left it comes as, surprisingly, love it or leave it. You're against the government, against taxes, against anything the government does, you're told you're free to leave. Sometimes that's couhced in the myth of a social contract.

[Common Sense]

From the left it comes as, surprisingly, love it or leave it. You're against the government, against taxes, against anything the government does, you're told you're free to leave. Sometimes that's couhced in the myth of a social contract.
That's not quite the same as being called anti American. That accusation applies to society in general.

Its also usually in response to hyperbolic claims that the government is evil or that taxes are theft.

[Common]

The accusation of being "anti American" comes predominantly from the right.

When I see it coming from the left, it's usually sarcastic.

The reason for that is that some on the right have a much more narrow definition of what makes an American or what makes a patriot. Many on the left have a broader definition.
Sure thing its always the right with you anyway. Truth be told the right does call unpatriotic when they see it and the lionshare of the time its liberals that are doing it

[Common]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.

I have never called you unpatriotic and I do not think that you are. I do think you distrust more than I do

[Common Sense]

Sure thing its always the right with you anyway. Truth be told the right does call unpatriotic when they see it and the lionshare of the time its liberals that are doing it
Lol...well there you go. Thanks for illustrating my point.

[Ethereal]

The accusation of being "anti American" comes predominantly from the right.

When I see it coming from the left, it's usually sarcastic.

The reason for that is that some on the right have a much more narrow definition of what makes an American or what makes a patriot. Many on the left have a broader definition.

Normally I would agree with you, but given the anti-Russian sentiment prevailing among many on the left, they've been just as eager to make accusations of disloyalty and anti-Americanism towards anyone who defends Trump and/or Russia from their preferred narrative. This is especially ironic since it is the exact same kind of behavior that Republicans engaged in during the Iraq war, behavior that Democrats resented.

[Ethereal]

That's not quite the same as being called anti American. That accusation applies to society in general.

Its also usually in response to hyperbolic claims that the government is evil or that taxes are theft.
Being told to leave your country because you resent the government is pretty much the same as being accused of anti-Americanism.

[Chris]

That's not quite the same as being called anti American. That accusation applies to society in general.


Its also usually in response to hyperbolic claims that the government is evil or that taxes are theft.




No, it is the same thing, made by those who hold the government sacred and are intolerant of opposing views.


Government is evil and taxation is theft. Plain and simple. The hyperbole is found in the unthinking overreaction to such statements.



Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects. Murray N. Rothbard

[Standing Wolf]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.

I do believe, however, that each instance in which the charge is made needs to be examined individually and on the basis of its possible validity, given the context. Simply opposing some foreign military action - which is a situation where accusations of being "anti-American" crop up frequently, and have for many decades - for example, is clearly a case of false charging. On the other hand, I'm not sure but that it might be appropriate if the one being so labeled is advocating for a law or policy that seeks to limit the Constitutional freedoms of American citizens...which tendencies are not the exclusive province of any one political or social ideology.

In any case, your statement that "...'America' as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government" is well taken and undeniable. Contrarianism and suspicion of unbridled governmental control or unnecessary State intrusion into the personal affairs of its citizens is as American as - the cliché of your choice.

[Common Sense]

Being told to leave your country because you resent the government is pretty much the same as being accused of anti-Americanism.
Not really.

[Standing Wolf]

I do believe, however, that each instance in which the charge is made needs to be examined individually and on the basis of its possible validity, given the context. Simply opposing some foreign military action - which is a situation where accusations of being "anti-American" crop up frequently, and have for many decades - for example, is clearly a case of false charging. On the other hand, I'm not sure but that it might be appropriate if the one being so labeled is advocating for a law or policy that seeks to limit the Constitutional freedoms of American citizens...which tendencies are not the exclusive province of any one political or social ideology.

In any case, your statement that "...'America' as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government" is well taken and undeniable. Contrarianism and suspicion of unbridled governmental control or unnecessary State intrusion into the personal affairs of its citizens is as American as - the cliché of your choice.

In editing the above to include the OP as a quote, I inadvertently deleted the intended opening paragraph of my post. It was not originally intended to start off with an abrupt, "Yeah, but..." The post, as originally written, started off agreeing with E's premise - that (my words) intellectual laziness and an attempt to claim the patriotic high ground were at the heart of such baseless accusations.

[Common Sense]

No, it is the same thing, made by those who hold the government sacred and are intolerant of opposing views.


Government is evil and taxation is theft. Plain and simple. The hyperbole is found in the unthinking overreaction to such statements.



Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

Taxation is theft, purely and simply even though it is theft on a grand and colossal scale which no acknowledged criminals could hope to match. It is a compulsory seizure of the property of the State’s inhabitants, or subjects. Murray N. Rothbard
Quotes are nice, but they are simply the opinions of others that you choose to agree with.

Again, claiming that those who don't think taxes are theft believe the government is "sacred" and that opposing hyperbole is "intolerant", doesn't really hold much water.

[Common]

Lol...well there you go. Thanks for illustrating my point.

au contraire you clearly demonstrated mine :)

[Common Sense]

au contraire you clearly demonstrated mine :)

I actually didn't. Look again at what you wrote.

[Chris]

Quotes are nice, but they are simply the opinions of others that you choose to agree with.

Again, claiming that those who don't think taxes are theft believe the government is "sacred" and that opposing hyperbole is "intolerant", doesn't really hold much water.


There meant merely to show the ideas have a long history and are fairly commonplace. Again, it's the unthinking reaction to such statements that are hyperbolic when a rational dialog might clarify what's meant.

But those are the one who have such a hyperbolic reaction, those who see the government as the sole solution to their problems. They the ones who say, intolerantly, these days, if you don't like it, leave.

[Ethereal]

Not really.

If anything, it's worse.

[Mini Me]

From the left it comes as, surprisingly, love it or leave it. You're against the government, against taxes, against anything the government does, you're told you're free to leave. Sometimes that's couhced in the myth of a social contract.

ars, and the GOP ran with it!
And there is a social contract!It is the RIGHT that came up with the "love it or leave it"!

That started during the NIXON ye

[Crepitus]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.

I don't think you are anti-American. I think we have different opinions of America's best path forward.

[Crepitus]

Just for the record I don't think anyone here is anti-American.

[Chris]

ars, and the GOP ran with it!
And there is a social contract!It is the RIGHT that came up with the "love it or leave it"!

That started during the NIXON ye


That's the irony of the left using phrases the right came up with in the 80s.

No one seems to know more than 15 minutes of history anymore.

[Standing Wolf]

There's being called "anti-American"...and then there's the way some want to make it into a "Your side calls my side 'anti-American' more than my side calls your side 'anti-American'" argument. C'mon, guys - if anything that's an even more pointless (not to mention futile) discussion.

And while being told that you should leave the country isn't exactly being called 'anti-American', it's close enough...as are the suggestion that those having your opinion should be rounded up and imprisoned (or worse) and being told that people who think like you do "hate America and want to see it destroyed".

[Ethereal]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American". This lack of consensus is one of the main reasons why I believe America should be confederated instead of united. But that's another issue entirely.

[Chris]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American". This lack of consensus is one of the main reasons why I believe America should be confederated instead of united. But that's another issue entirely.

And those confederations confederated into communities each with its own autonomous government. Sort of like the bottom-up movement going on in Rojava.

[Standing Wolf]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American".

I don't view it as being quite as subjective as that, but there is certainly room for honest discussion. The greatest danger lies not so much in one individual or one side in a discussion of a particular subject being labeled 'anti-American' as in an entire ideology as a whole being so condemned. The former is relatively easy to analyze and either confirm or dismiss, whereas the latter is not so readily addressed.

[Ethereal]

I don't view it as being quite as subjective as that...

Why not?

[Common Sense]

Normally I would agree with you, but given the anti-Russian sentiment prevailing among many on the left, they've been just as eager to make accusations of disloyalty and anti-Americanism towards anyone who defends Trump and/or Russia from their preferred narrative. This is especially ironic since it is the exact same kind of behavior that Republicans engaged in during the Iraq war, behavior that Democrats resented.

I agree that both sides have engaged it that rhetoric. However in my opinion, the definition of what constitutes an "anti American" for many on the right is far more broad. Some on the right see cultural changes or traditions brought by immigrants as anti American. I think it has a lot to do with a far more rigid set of values and a dislike of ambiguity and change. I mean, they are conservative.

The left on the other hand is far more inclusive. They wont label someone as being anti American because their cultural values don't resemble their own. Liberals also tend to be less nationalistic.

When it comes to Russia, their is hysteria on the left, but there is also the fact that Russia has indeed influenced American politics with a dedicated campaign to divide and spread propaganda. Much of it was so effective due to this lack of tolerance from the right. The majority of their propaganda was targeting the right and to an extent it has worked.

[Standing Wolf]

Why not?

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.

[Chris]

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.


Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

It derives from English Common Law. It wasn't really upheld via incorporation on the states until Miranda v. Arizona 1966. --Is being American really abiding by the laws of the government, or is it more standing up or the people even against the government? "It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen." Aristotle

[Ethereal]

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.
In order to argue that a particular viewpoint is not, in fact, un-American, there would have to be an objective definition of what it means to be "American". Thus far, I am not aware of any such definition.

[barb012]

All Americans should hold our government to a higher level and expect them to not become corrupt but this is not the reality. A person should not be viewed anti-american because they see that our government is corrupt. To truly love your country, the people need to unite to find solutions to correct this behavior. This is an incredible challenge in today's environment where no one seems to have any ideas when there is so many obstacles in the way to be heard.

Anyone that says you are anti-american seems to have no problem with a corrupt government and this thinking is insane.

[Standing Wolf]

In order to argue that a particular viewpoint is not, in fact, un-American, there would have to be an objective definition of what it means to be "American". Thus far, I am not aware of any such definition.

I'll confess it is complicated. One can focus on America's history, of course, and say that to be "American" means to believe in Manifest Destiny, American Exceptionalism, and the U.S. having its way at any cost to others; or one can say that being "American" means to adhere to all of those legal, moral and ethical principles and constraints that we have always given lip service to, while not always living up to them. Given a choice, I'd prefer to go with the latter - the aspirational, rather than the historical view.

When I say that something is "un-American", I'm not suggesting that it's something "we" have never done - only that it's something that, in our best and most positive view of ourselves as a People, we wouldn't do.

I also believe that it's easier, in most cases, to make valid, defensible judgments about what is "American" or "un-American" when focusing on single issues, rather than attempting to do something as ambitious (and ultimately impossible) as defining what it is to be "American" in all situations.

[Chris]

All Americans should hold our government to a higher level and expect them to not become corrupt but this is not the reality. A person should not be viewed anti-american because they see that our government is corrupt. To truly love your country, the people need to unite to find solutions to correct this behavior. This is an incredible challenge in today's environment where no one seems to have any ideas when there is so many obstacles in the way to be heard.

Anyone that says you are anti-american seems to have no problem with a corrupt government and this thinking is insane.


Agree. But. It seems to me that the democracy is so big and so centrally planned, and so costly to really get involved, and the media so focused on national politics that most people become isolated, abstracted out of it all that it's rational to pay more attention to your own life and those around you and just step away from politics or involvement in it. Involvement in politics requires, I think, a ground up approach, somethink like what you see in Rojava today.

[barb012]

Agree. But. It seems to me that the democracy is so big and so centrally planned, and so costly to really get involved, and the media so focused on national politics that most people become isolated, abstracted out of it all that it's rational to pay more attention to your own life and those around you and just step away from politics or involvement in it. Involvement in politics requires, I think, a ground up approach, somethink like what you see in Rojava today.

I do agree with you that most people have enough problems with their own personal lives so there is no time to address the problems with our government. Even if we could, we do not have the tools or the financial resources to begin to address this issue. The reality of being helpless to do anything is we all have to witness to the eventual collapse of America. A government that has no higher authority to keep them in check that prevents further corruption from destroying their society will fail as it has proven in history with every fallen empire.

A fallen empire did not occur in a short period of time. Several generations lived and died during its existence which is why we as citizens have no sense of urgency to attempt to correct it.