Double standards?

[Adelaide]

I recently purchased a book about double standards between men and women and have shared it with several female friends and my mother. We all got a kick out of it, because we can relate to it and/or discovered that we found some of the double standards were right in front of us without ever even realising it.

Some of the double standards were:


He is a stud - she is a slut
He is a bachelor - she is a spinster
He is the boss - she is the bitch
He is angry - she is PMSing
He is distinguished - she is Driving Miss Daisy
He is pussy whipped - she is a good girlfriend
He is childless - she is selfish


The book is, "He's a Stud and She's a Slut and 49 Other Double Standards Every Woman Should Know," by Jessica Valenti (a fairly well known feminist). It's certainly not something I'm going to consider as having a great impact on my views, but it's an interesting read and interesting to think about.

Something that I found interesting within the book was that it offered a section of each double standard to provide for "What to do?" Oddly enough, the writer's conclusion on many of the double standards (which I happen to agree with) is that women are a major problem in terms of promoting these ideas or reinforcing them within their language or how they behave towards other females as compared to males. For example, very few women have never been called a slut, but most women will tell you it's been predominantly other women who were doing the name-calling of what is a fairly sexist term/idea. It is mostly women who label and judge the sexual behaviour of other women while dismissing the fact that a male doing the same thing is a "stud".

Anyways, I'm interested in having a dialogue about these double standards, whether they do in fact exist, why they continue to exist and how or if society should attempt to eradicate them, (such as through individual behaviours - example, I never call any woman a bitch, ever, because I find the term sexist).

[Conley]

I agree there's a double standard to some degree but I haven't heard some of those terms ... a Driving Miss Daisy? what does that mean? The angry / PMS thing is pretty common

[Adelaide]

I agree there's a double standard to some degree but I haven't heard some of those terms ... a Driving Miss Daisy? what does that mean? The angry / PMS thing is pretty common

I believe it is a reference to this movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_Miss_Daisy). This idea is that men age gracefully and are seen as dignified or distinguished and still desirable in old age, while women have to struggle to try and stay young because we have three set stereotypes when it comes to aging: young/beautiful, mothers, then old ladies. Take for instance Hugh Heffner - he's considered distinguished (albeit slimey in my opinion) while someone like Helen Mirren is considered to be over the hill. It's a double standard based on age and looks, and then as an added insult older men make on average $14,000 more than their female counterparts and elderly women who were stay-at-home moms/wives or who worked low-income positions are absolutely screwed when it comes to pension benefits or social security.

[Peter1469]

The sources of the double standards are interesting. I think you are correct that the slut thing is largely driven by women, but others like aging gracefully maybe not so much.

[Calypso Jones]

Actually. It is my observation that men after a certain age, age more gracefully for a time than their wives. I'm talking upper seventies and early eighties. (And if wives aren't careful it can happen in earlier ages. That's why makeup, cosmetic surgery and dressing smartly would be rilly rilly good ideas. It takes so little to be above average). Their wives start looking like the husband's mother. It's true love that keeps them together at this point in my opinion....then the guy catches up.

note to guys: bathe. You're not a damned european. Their women have apparently lost all sense of smell.

[Adelaide]

The sources of the double standards are interesting. I think you are correct that the slut thing is largely driven by women, but others like aging gracefully maybe not so much.

Kind of interestingly, I know of a member on another forum who argued that Hilary Clinton will not be able to run 2016 because she'll be too old and women of that age are just not attractive enough, specifically that Clinton has not aged very well. It was not intended to be sexist, just simply stating that her looks and her age will be detrimental if she decided to run. I found that interesting, and I think it's true even if I think that's a horrible reason for someone not to be successful, (and regardless of how likely it is for her to run for the presidency). I think men her age could/can/do run and would just be seen as distinguished.

[Kizzume]

Actually. It is my observation that men after a certain age, age more gracefully for a time than their wives. I'm talking upper seventies and early eighties. (And if wives aren't careful it can happen in earlier ages. That's why makeup, cosmetic surgery and dressing smartly would be rilly rilly good ideas. It takes so little to be above average). Their wives start looking like the husband's mother. It's true love that keeps them together at this point in my opinion....then the guy catches up.

note to guys: bathe. You're not a damned european. Their women have apparently lost all sense of smell.

With how much perfume, cologne, frebreeze, strongly-scented detergents and fabric softeners, glade plugins and heavily scented hair products a lot of people use, it definitely DOES seem like people have lost their sense of smell. :)

[Peter1469]

Kind of interestingly, I know of a member on another forum who argued that Hilary Clinton will not be able to run 2016 because she'll be too old and women of that age are just not attractive enough, specifically that Clinton has not aged very well. It was not intended to be sexist, just simply stating that her looks and her age will be detrimental if she decided to run. I found that interesting, and I think it's true even if I think that's a horrible reason for someone not to be successful, (and regardless of how likely it is for her to run for the presidency). I think men her age could/can/do run and would just be seen as distinguished.

I have said that very thing about Hillary here and at another board.

[Adelaide]

I have said that very thing about Hillary here and at another board.

Whether you like Clinton or not, it's pretty sad that society is the way it is and that it's something that would possibly prevent her from succeeding if she ran. Again, I don't necessarily support her but I think it's pretty sad that older women are viewed and judged in such a way. Then people wonder why famous/wealthy women in their 40s and 50s are constantly having to undergo plastic surgery in order to remain somewhat youthful in appearance, (or downright scary in some cases).

It's not very inspiring from a female point of view.

[Peter1469]

Whether you like Clinton or not, it's pretty sad that society is the way it is and that it's something that would possibly prevent her from succeeding if she ran. Again, I don't necessarily support her but I think it's pretty sad that older women are viewed and judged in such a way. Then people wonder why famous/wealthy women in their 40s and 50s are constantly having to undergo plastic surgery in order to remain somewhat youthful in appearance, (or downright scary in some cases).

It's not very inspiring from a female point of view.

I agree.

[Adelaide]

With how much perfume, cologne, frebreeze, strongly-scented detergents and fabric softeners, glade plugins and heavily scented hair products a lot of people use, it definitely DOES seem like people have lost their sense of smell. :)

Ugh. Nothing worse than when someone has overdone it and you have to be in a close proximity to them. Just as bad if they don't have proper hygeine, but as someone with allergies, I'd take that over the fake scents.

[Captain Obvious]

I recently purchased a book about double standards between men and women and have shared it with several female friends and my mother. We all got a kick out of it, because we can relate to it and/or discovered that we found some of the double standards were right in front of us without ever even realising it.

Some of the double standards were:


He is a stud - she is a slut
He is a bachelor - she is a spinster
He is the boss - she is the bitch
He is angry - she is PMSing
He is distinguished - she is Driving Miss Daisy
He is pussy whipped - she is a good girlfriend
He is childless - she is selfish


The book is, "He's a Stud and She's a Slut and 49 Other Double Standards Every Woman Should Know," by Jessica Valenti (a fairly well known feminist). It's certainly not something I'm going to consider as having a great impact on my views, but it's an interesting read and interesting to think about.

Something that I found interesting within the book was that it offered a section of each double standard to provide for "What to do?" Oddly enough, the writer's conclusion on many of the double standards (which I happen to agree with) is that women are a major problem in terms of promoting these ideas or reinforcing them within their language or how they behave towards other females as compared to males. For example, very few women have never been called a slut, but most women will tell you it's been predominantly other women who were doing the name-calling of what is a fairly sexist term/idea. It is mostly women who label and judge the sexual behaviour of other women while dismissing the fact that a male doing the same thing is a "stud".

Anyways, I'm interested in having a dialogue about these double standards, whether they do in fact exist, why they continue to exist and how or if society should attempt to eradicate them, (such as through individual behaviours - example, I never call any woman a bitch, ever, because I find the term sexist).

That door swings both ways.

Men are pigs, women are untidy
Men like sex, women like marriage
Men are alcoholics, women get tipsy

My point is that you really need to consider the source of this kind of dialogue. I'm guessing this "feminist" isn't really objective.

[LiarSOB]

I recently purchased a book about double standards between men and women and have shared it with several female friends and my mother. We all got a kick out of it, because we can relate to it and/or discovered that we found some of the double standards were right in front of us without ever even realising it.

Some of the double standards were:

He is a stud - she is a slut
He is a bachelor - she is a spinster
He is the boss - she is the bitch
He is angry - she is PMSing
He is distinguished - she is Driving Miss Daisy
He is pussy whipped - she is a good girlfriend
He is childless - she is selfish

The book is, "He's a Stud and She's a Slut and 49 Other Double Standards Every Woman Should Know," by Jessica Valenti (a fairly well known feminist). It's certainly not something I'm going to consider as having a great impact on my views, but it's an interesting read and interesting to think about.

Something that I found interesting within the book was that it offered a section of each double standard to provide for "What to do?" Oddly enough, the writer's conclusion on many of the double standards (which I happen to agree with) is that women are a major problem in terms of promoting these ideas or reinforcing them within their language or how they behave towards other females as compared to males. For example, very few women have never been called a slut, but most women will tell you it's been predominantly other women who were doing the name-calling of what is a fairly sexist term/idea. It is mostly women who label and judge the sexual behaviour of other women while dismissing the fact that a male doing the same thing is a "stud".

Anyways, I'm interested in having a dialogue about these double standards, whether they do in fact exist, why they continue to exist and how or if society should attempt to eradicate them, (such as through individual behaviours - example, I never call any woman a bitch, ever, because I find the term sexist).
I am not a feminist, but every single word of your post is true. Maybe with the exception of "He is childless - she is selfish". I don't know about the old farts, but I know nobody younger who feels obligated to have children, especially when we all are already drowning financially. And yes, every guy would welcome every woman who goes "stud" and then it is the other women who damp her by "slut"-ting her. As a guy I really don't get why women are so cruel to each other, no guy can even think that far. Puzzling ... .

[Adelaide]

That door swings both ways.

Men are pigs, women are untidy
Men like sex, women like marriage
Men are alcoholics, women get tipsy

My point is that you really need to consider the source of this kind of dialogue. I'm guessing this "feminist" isn't really objective.

Absolutely - I have no doubts that her perspective is probably not objective. That doesn't mean that she hasn't brought up some pretty good and interesting points about how some behaviours are perfectly acceptable for one gender, but greatly frowned upon or judged when practiced by the opposite gender.

And yes, it does go both ways although I don't think your examples are really that prevalent, or at least not in my own personal experiences.

[Adelaide]

I am not a feminist, but every single word of your post is true. Maybe with the exception of "He is childless - she is selfish". I don't know about the old farts, but I know nobody younger who feels obligated to have children, especially when we all are already drowning financially. And yes, every guy would welcome every woman who goes "stud" and then it is the other women who damp her by "slut"-ting her. As a guy I really don't get why women are so cruel to each other, no guy can even think that far. Puzzling ... .

How old do you consider "younger"?

I'm only in my early twenties, but already my friends are starting to enter into marriages and have children. There is societal pressure that indicates that marriage and children is the only way to truly feel or be fulfilled as a woman. It's all over the media that women should want those things. It's definitely becoming less and less difficult to be a single, childless female without being automatically labelled a sad spinsiter, but the pressures still persists. Honestly, there is also a biological component that is fairly confusing to those of us who don't wish to be mothers - I get baby envy when I hang out with my Godchildren, for example, even though I don't want to be a mother myself, (obviously, unless something horrific happens and a child is placed in my care).

[Peter1469]

How old do you consider "younger"?

I'm only in my early twenties, but already my friends are starting to enter into marriages and have children. There is societal pressure that indicates that marriage and children is the only way to truly feel or be fulfilled as a woman. It's all over the media that women should want those things. It's definitely becoming less and less difficult to be a single, childless female without being automatically labelled a sad spinsiter, but the pressures still persists. Honestly, there is also a biological component that is fairly confusing to those of us who don't wish to be mothers - I get baby envy when I hang out with my Godchildren, for example, even though I don't want to be a mother myself, (obviously, unless something horrific happens and a child is placed in my care).

You are young. Many women feel like you are until they hit 30. No pressure. :grin: Just saying.

[LiarSOB]

How old do you consider "younger"?

I'm only in my early twenties, but already my friends are starting to enter into marriages and have children. There is societal pressure that indicates that marriage and children is the only way to truly feel or be fulfilled as a woman. It's all over the media that women should want those things. It's definitely becoming less and less difficult to be a single, childless female without being automatically labelled a sad spinsiter, but the pressures still persists. Honestly, there is also a biological component that is fairly confusing to those of us who don't wish to be mothers - I get baby envy when I hang out with my Godchildren, for example, even though I don't want to be a mother myself, (obviously, unless something horrific happens and a child is placed in my care).

Oops, I forgot that you are writing from the USA, I was speaking from the European point of view. In my observation, anything American is Europe minus ~30 years, with the exception of Hollywood.

The child-envy factor that you are saying, is VERY interesting. That you say that it is/maybe biological+socialpressure, I think it is a trap too, because as soon as you fulfill that pressure, your marriage will go under breaking stress in order to support that child. Statistically the "7 year itch" has now become the "3 year itch", because generic prosperity is in nose-dive, and families are tied to obligations that can't be fulfilled. So I think that the give-birth pressure is because selling you stuff to sustain your obligations is a steady cash flow for others, e.g. for the (disgraceful) old farts.

I would like to ask this, forgive my ignorance, popular analysts say that in a woman's life, first there is "party time", then later there is "child raring time", then later there is something else. What is that something else?

And what can replace the "child raring time"? I think feminism is not interested in this because it only says that you should lock men out of your life categorically. Is it really only child raring that makes women monogamous? What would women do if that burden was lifted truely at every age group in every country?

[Peter1469]

Oops, I forgot that you are writing from the USA, I was speaking from the European point of view. In my observation, anything American is Europe minus ~30 years, with the exception of Hollywood.

The child-envy factor you are saying, is VERY interesting. That you say that it is/maybe biological+socialpressure, it is a trap too, because as soon as you fulfill that pressure, your marriage will go under breaking stress in order to support that child. Statistically the "7 year itch" has now become the "3 year itch", because generic prosperity is in nose-dive, and families are tied to obligations that can't be fulfilled. So I think that the give-birth pressure is because selling you stuff to sustain your obligations is a steady cash flow for others, e.g. for the (disgraceful) old farts.


She is not an American. She is north of us.

[corrocamino]

I agree there's a double standard to some degree but I haven't heard some of those terms ... a Driving Miss Daisy? what does that mean? The angry / PMS thing is pretty common

Jeeesus! Please don't bring up PMS! Once, in an office environment, I had to contend (unsuccessfully!) with a bevy of purposefully aggregated female sycophants (within a glass-walled holy-of-holies), who served principally to insulate the Big Man from the unpleasant realities of his ill-managed larger domain. Their warding-off of bothersome supplicants of good purpose was quite effective. I came to call them the "Tour de France", as they quite apparently cycled together! :shocked:

[LiarSOB]

She is not an American. She is north of us.
HAHA I heard this joke some time ago. "Canada could have gained American know-how, British government, and French culture, but instead it ended up with French government, British know-how, and American culture." HAHA

[Captain Obvious]

She is not an American. She is north of us.

"America's hat".

[Adelaide]

Oops, I forgot that you are writing from the USA, I was speaking from the European point of view. In my observation, anything American is Europe minus ~30 years, with the exception of Hollywood.

The child-envy factor that you are saying, is VERY interesting. That you say that it is/maybe biological+socialpressure, I think it is a trap too, because as soon as you fulfill that pressure, your marriage will go under breaking stress in order to support that child. Statistically the "7 year itch" has now become the "3 year itch", because generic prosperity is in nose-dive, and families are tied to obligations that can't be fulfilled. So I think that the give-birth pressure is because selling you stuff to sustain your obligations is a steady cash flow for others, e.g. for the (disgraceful) old farts.

I would like to ask this, forgive my ignorance, popular analysts say that in a woman's life, first there is "party time", then later there is "child raring time", then later there is something else. What is that something else?

And what can replace the "child raring time"? I think feminism is not interested in this because it only says that you should lock men out of your life categorically. Is it really only child raring that makes women monogamous? What would women do if that burden was lifted truely at every age group in every country?

I don't think feminism is about locking men out at all - feminism is about wanting equality and to smash stereotypes. Many feminists feel just as strongly that men should also have those things, myself included. As for what replaces the child rearing stage... I would guess that it is a time when women who don't want children begin to make their climb in their profession. While all my coworkers are off on maternity leave, it presents me with an opportunity to move up the chain of command. Sad, but it's true.

[Peter1469]

I don't think feminism is about locking men out at all - feminism is about wanting equality and to smash stereotypes. Many feminists feel just as strongly that men should also have those things, myself included. As for what replaces the child rearing stage... I would guess that it is a time when women who don't want children begin to make their climb in their profession. While all my coworkers are off on maternity leave, it presents me with an opportunity to move up the chain of command. Sad, but it's true.

Equality is fine. But there must be a recognition that men and women are different. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[LiarSOB]

I don't think feminism is about locking men out at all - feminism is about wanting equality and to smash stereotypes. Many feminists feel just as strongly that men should also have those things, myself included. As for what replaces the child rearing stage... I would guess that it is a time when women who don't want children begin to make their climb in their profession. While all my coworkers are off on maternity leave, it presents me with an opportunity to move up the chain of command. Sad, but it's true.
Very interesting. Actually none of it is sad, and I think that in the grand scheme of things it is indistinguishable whether your creation is a child, a business, or a product, or just something you never noticed. Even metaphysically. Ask a future teller if she can read your palm and tell in certainty that she sees your child or your any other works, they will say they can't distinguish for sure, unless they are just playing. (I am not a future teller or superstitious though, only interested in the tales of the occult.)

[Adelaide]

Equality is fine. But there must be a recognition that men and women are different. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

There are always exceptions, though. It's like my view on women in combat roles in the military: no, majority would never come close to qualifying if they used the same standards as the men, but there are the very few that could and they should be allowed. That's equality even when both have their are strengths and weaknesses.

[corrocamino]

The range of strengths and weaknesses among men and among women is in both cases greater than any perceived mean difference between men and women.