Ban all disposable plastic bags

[Chloe]

This already happened here in Portland recently which is awesome but I think it should definitely spread across the country. Plastic bags like the ones you would get at your basic grocery stores are some of the most wasteful, useless, and hazardous things that exist just for convenience and will practically never biodegrade. So many fish, birds, and marine mammals die every year due to the millions of tons of plastic in the ocean and along the coast, and it's time for other communities across the country to see the waste involved with this stuff in my opinion. I am especially proud of this ban here in Portland because me and two of my friends went all over Portland and my university in support of the ban trying to let people know the dangers involved and help spread the word about plastic bags, and thankfully thousands of people ended up helping to push the ban through this month, although it wont be official till next year. I know it is easy to just let your grocery store put your stuff in plastic bags but please consider bringing your own reusable bags instead of getting a dozen plastic bags.

[Kizzume]

I have a very small truck, I'm not going to buy and keep a bunch of reusable bags in my already messy truck, and I'm not using paper bags where it's only possible to carry, at most, 2 bags at a time whereas the plastic ones I can pretty much carry all the bags in with one swoop, just one trip from the truck back to my place. This is one area that I'm just not willing to do the extra work in the name of the environment. No, I'm not proud of it. No, I'm not happy with myself about it. No, I would never brag about it. It's lazy on my part, but I accept that.

[Chloe]

I have a very small truck, I'm not going to buy and keep a bunch of reusable bags in my already messy truck, and I'm not using paper bags where it's only possible to carry, at most, 2 bags at a time whereas the plastic ones I can pretty much carry all the bags in with one swoop, just one trip from the truck back to my place. This is one area that I'm just not willing to do the extra work in the name of the environment. No, I'm not proud of it. No, I'm not happy with myself about it. No, I would never brag about it. It's lazy on my part, but I accept that.

I don't mean this in a rude way but you could always clean up your truck and then role a number of reusable bags and then place those rolled up bags in one larger bag. You obviously realize that it's not a good thing and so is it really that much effort to take the extra few minutes and extra couple of dollars?

[Calypso Jones]

Those reusable bags have been shown to be as filthy as the toilet in that store. You don't know where those things have been and they're unlikely to have been washed. Bacteria from milk, blood in meats, chicken...God only knows what else. Sitting in those dirty carts that have also shown to have e-coli. So......good luck with this ill conceived idea. Btw. I don't think it's plastic bags in the ocean that are killing the fish. Try Ocean Vessels dropping their garbage in international waters at 3am.

Liberalism. Ideas so good they have to be mandated.

afterthought: states of Oregon and washington have banned phosphates in detergents which means your citizens are going across state lines and buying detergents that DO have Phosphates. Bad news is that most detergent companies are leaving out the cleaning agent phosphate so.....the next best thing is go to lowes or Home depot and buy yourself a box of TSP to add to your Washing machine dispenser.

[GrassrootsConservative]

:facepalm:
Why don't we ban animals instead? That would make a lot more sense. Let's make a graph, O.K.? This graph will show animals killed by other animals on one bar and then animals killed by plastic bags on the other bar.

Why don't you guess which bar would be bigger.

If you want we can have a 3rd bar which shows animals killed by poachers in Africa for money.

Which bar, do you imagine, would be the shortest bar?

[Chloe]

Those reusable bags have been shown to be as filthy as the toilet in that store. You don't know where those things have been and they're unlikely to have been washed. Bacteria from milk, blood in meats, chicken...God only knows what else. Sitting in those dirty carts that have also shown to have e-coli. So......good luck with this ill conceived idea. Btw. I don't think it's paper bags in the ocean that are killing the fish. Try Ocean Vessels dropping their garbage in international waters at 3am.

Liberalism. Ideas so good they have to be mandated.

It's plastic bags that were banned, not paper bags, I didn't say paper.

You can buy your own reusable bags and wash them yourself, that's what my parents and I do. Also you should always wash your fruits and vegetables anyway before you use them, and everything else is packaged usually so the reusable bag won't affect it. Also those plastic bags aren't exactly clean either and do far much more damage globally once they are discarded than the bug on your apple or the dirt on your broccoli.

[Kizzume]

It's plastic bags that were banned, not paper bags, I didn't say paper.

You can buy your own reusable bags and wash them yourself, that's what my parents and I do. Also you should always wash your fruits and vegetables anyway before you use them, and everything else is packaged usually so the reusable bag won't affect it. Also those plastic bags aren't exactly clean either and do far much more damage globally once they are discarded than the bug on your apple or the dirt on your broccoli.

Um, the plastic bags are pretty much sterile until they're used.

[Chloe]

:facepalm:
Why don't we ban animals instead? That would make a lot more sense. Let's make a graph, O.K.? This graph will show animals killed by other animals on one bar and then animals killed by plastic bags on the other bar.

Why don't you guess which bar would be bigger.

If you want we can have a 3rd bar which shows animals killed by poachers in Africa for money.

Which bar, do you imagine, would be the shortest bar?

Animals being killed by animals is nature. Animals killed by poachers is illegal. Animals killed by plastic bags and trash is our fault.

[Chloe]

Um, the plastic bags are pretty much sterile until they're used.

I was talking more about how they dirty the environment. Wrapping your kale in plastic is just wasteful.

[Chloe]

Those reusable bags have been shown to be as filthy as the toilet in that store. You don't know where those things have been and they're unlikely to have been washed. Bacteria from milk, blood in meats, chicken...God only knows what else. Sitting in those dirty carts that have also shown to have e-coli. So......good luck with this ill conceived idea. Btw. I don't think it's paper bags in the ocean that are killing the fish. Try Ocean Vessels dropping their garbage in international waters at 3am.

Liberalism. Ideas so good they have to be mandated.

afterthought: states of Oregon and washington have banned phosphates in detergents which means your citizens are going across state lines and buying detergents that DO have Phosphates. Bad news is that most detergent companies are leaving out the cleaning agent phosphate so.....the next best thing is go to lowes or Home depot and buy yourself a box of TSP to add to your Washing machine dispenser.

Ocean vessels are contributing as well I don't disagree with that

[Calypso Jones]

It's plastic bags that were banned, not paper bags, I didn't say paper.

You can buy your own reusable bags and wash them yourself, that's what my parents and I do. Also you should always wash your fruits and vegetables anyway before you use them, and everything else is packaged usually so the reusable bag won't affect it. Also those plastic bags aren't exactly clean either and do far much more damage globally once they are discarded than the bug on your apple or the dirt on your broccoli.

i was talking about plastic. Where can you get paper anymore.

[Kizzume]

i was talking about plastic. Where can you get paper anymore.

Well, around here the standard question is still "paper or plastic".

[GrassrootsConservative]

Animals being killed by animals is nature. Animals killed by poachers is illegal. Animals killed by plastic bags and trash is our fault.

You completely missed my point.
Why are you getting to pick which things that kill animals we ban?
Why can't I pick? What if African poachers make me feel almost as guilty as plastic makes you feel?
If I give you your plastic bag ban will you give me the right to slaughter Africa and all the people who live there?
It's for the animals.

[Chloe]

You completely missed my point.
Why are you getting to pick which things that kill animals we ban?
Why can't I pick? What if African poachers make me feel almost as guilty as plastic makes you feel?
If I give you your plastic bag ban will you give me the right to slaughter Africa and all the people who live there?
It's for the animals.

No.

So you sincerely don't care about how wasteful and hazardous plastic can be when it is not in your hand carrying groceries for that five minutes before you throw it in the trash or on the ground? For example the millions of tons of plastic in the ocean off the pacific coast right now is perfectly fine to you?

[Mainecoons]

Around here, we go to "tianquis" and carry our stuff home in canvas carry bags that we have been using for years.

[Calypso Jones]

Ocean vessels are contributing as well I don't disagree with that

well okay then. Don't bother checking it out.

[Calypso Jones]

Does anyone get the notion that our youth are becoming little pol pot tyrants? They don't have to study anything...they don't care about the facts...it's what they feel regardless if they have any education on the topic or not?

[Peter1469]

DC added a .05 cent charge per plastic bag. The store that I shop at in NOVA gives a .05 cent refund per reusable bag that you bring with you.

[GrassrootsConservative]

No.

So you sincerely don't care about how wasteful and hazardous plastic can be when it is not in your hand carrying groceries for that five minutes before you throw it in the trash or on the ground? For example the millions of tons of plastic in the ocean off the pacific coast right now is perfectly fine to you?

It's as fine to me as African poachers are to you. Do I like it? No. Am I actively trying to do something to fight it? No.
Again, however, since you keep trying to deflect, is why you want to decide what we ban and what we let continue to happen?

[pjohns]

Basically, the proposal in the OP is to sacrifice convenience on the alter of Politically Correct Eco-Zealotry; and to do so, not be merely attempting to convince others of the (supposed) moral imperative in which the theory is grounded, but, rather, by calling upon government to enact coercive legislation...

[oceanloverOH]

Even more than plastic bags, I would like to see those heavy plastic soda can or water bottle loops, that hold a 6-8-or-12-pack of beverages together when you buy them. Now THOSE things are dangerous to animals....I have rescued 3 cats (one feral, two neighborhood pets) over the last 10 years who have gotten their necks tangled in those things. And God knows how long it would take for that heavy plastic to degrade, if ever. When I buy beverages, I cut them up into short strips, so at least they aren't dangerous to pets or wildlife (unless they're ingested....and that's a whole other subject).

[Calypso Jones]

DC added a .05 cent charge per plastic bag. The store that I shop at in NOVA gives a .05 cent refund per reusable bag that you bring with you.

must the reusable be canvas/cloth or can it be plastic bags you've used previously?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Instead of infringing upon my rights because you feel guilty about plastic bags, why don't you just not use them?

[Peter1469]

must the reusable be canvas/cloth or can it be plastic bags you've used previously?

I don't know. In NOVA I see people use big plastic bags- some of mine are plastic.

[Calypso Jones]

I don't know. In NOVA I see people use big plastic bags- some of mine are plastic.

liberals. LoL. You can't shoot 'em. Wonder if the store is just trying to cut down on their overhead while appearing to be eco=friendly. Personally i try not to shop in NoVa anymore, except for once in a while. And certainly not food items. I've learned to keep my mouth shut here. What once appeared to be expensive to me here i now realize is reasonable compared to what you guys pay for food there.

[Kizzume]

If the ban comes here, I'll deal with it--I'd use the reusable bags (and have to wash them constantly) before I'd go with stupid paper bags that you can only feasibly carry 2 a time without ripping. I hope the ban doesn't come here--lines take long enough at grocery stores, with the ban they'd have to sort bags that there's no standard for sizing and with no idea how strong the bag actually is.

But what can I expect out of a city like Portland that turned their whole downtown into a bicycle haven and automobile nightmare by changing the rightward lanes, yep, the whole full-sized car lane, into bicycle lanes (so in many cases there's only one lane of traffic.... in the main parts of downtown Portland), making Portland by far the worst city to drive in (besides having to learn ALL the bridges to be able to get around or you'll inadvertently end up on freeways or roads that go for miles with no turnoffs).

[Calypso Jones]

where are you shopping that they offer you paper bags. I've not seen paper bags in years!! oh....except at the ABC store. LoL

[Kizzume]

where are you shopping that they offer you paper bags. I've not seen paper bags in years!! oh....except at the ABC store. LoL

You know--I'm going to have to pay more attention. I thought I still saw paper bags at Fred Meyer. I don't actually remember them actually *asking* me for paper or plastic except at places like Trader Joes or "organic" grocery stores and smaller markets.

I think Safeway just has plastic--I'm trying to recall their setup and I just can't remember a place where paper bags would be, unless they had them under the counter..... hmm., yeah, I'll have to pay more attention. I do know that those smaller stores have them still, and the commissary at Lewis/McChord Army/Air Force base still defaults to paper.

[Mainecoons]

Ah Trader Joe's. Now you've caused me to have tears in my eyes. I have to drive to Texas to go to Trader Joe's.

Do you remember that one time when a batch of Three Buck Chuck white wine (in NM it was $3) had a Wine Spectator rating of 92? We managed to get a case of it, sold out in a couple hours. The bargain of a lifetime. This was right after they opened in Albuquerque.

[Peter1469]

liberals. LoL. You can't shoot 'em. Wonder if the store is just trying to cut down on their overhead while appearing to be eco=friendly. Personally i try not to shop in NoVa anymore, except for once in a while. And certainly not food items. I've learned to keep my mouth shut here. What once appeared to be expensive to me here i now realize is reasonable compared to what you guys pay for food there.

I get most of my food at a local farmers market (year round). I only go to brick and mortar stores for what I need otherwise.

[Chloe]

Does anyone get the notion that our youth are becoming little pol pot tyrants? They don't have to study anything...they don't care about the facts...it's what they feel regardless if they have any education on the topic or not?So I am a tyrant for wanting plastic bags banned?

[Chloe]

Instead of infringing upon my rights because you feel guilty about plastic bags, why don't you just not use them?Having a plastic bag for groceries is not a right

[Peter1469]

Having a plastic bag for groceries is not a right

And it seems like a local issue. Citizens should be able to lobby for and against anything they wish at the local level.

[Chloe]

And it seems like a local issue. Citizens should be able to lobby for and against anything they wish at the local level.Yep which we did in Portland. I just wish more cities and communities would do the same

[GrassrootsConservative]

Having a plastic bag for groceries is not a right

It is part of my right to freedom because I live in America. Why do you want to take my right to freedom away from me?

[Chloe]

It is part of my right to freedom because I live in America. Why do you want to take my right to freedom away from me?I seriously doubt that the founding fathers were talking about your freedom to use a plastic bag for your apples at the store. Use a reusable bag instead, what's the problem? Would you rather the apples or the plastic bag?

[Chloe]

You completely missed my point. Why are you getting to pick which things that kill animals we ban?Why can't I pick? What if African poachers make me feel almost as guilty as plastic makes you feel?If I give you your plastic bag ban will you give me the right to slaughter Africa and all the people who live there? It's for the animals.I'm sorry it's a ridiculous comparison

[GrassrootsConservative]

I'm sorry it's a ridiculous comparison

Yup, to you. "Ridiculous" is subjective. I think you wanting to ban plastic bags is ridiculous.

Unfortunately what you think and what I think do not matter.

[Peter1469]

Yep which we did in Portland. I just wish more cities and communities would do the same

I have no problem with local communities doing this. I would have a very big problem with the federal government involving itself in this issue- at least without a constitutional amendment.

[Kizzume]

Yup, to you. "Ridiculous" is subjective. I think you wanting to ban plastic bags is ridiculous.

Unfortunately what you think and what I think do not matter.

You compare the most radically different things to each other to try to prove points. Why do you do this? Can't you come up with some more reasonable things to compare it to?

You're comparing banning plastic bags with killing people in Africa. It really is totally absurd!

[Chloe]

I'm actually very surprised by how defensive people are about plastic bags on here. I didn't get near this amount of push back when I would talk to people at school and around the city when we were trying to spread the information.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I'm actually very surprised by how defensive people are about plastic bags on here. I didn't get near this amount of push back when I would talk to people at school and around the city when we were trying to spread the information.

Plastic bags are just one of the branches on our tree of freedom that are being threatened by Liberal idiocy. Guns, coal, oil, healthcare, and everything else we as consumers wish to have are being threatened EVERY SINGLE DAY with bans just like the one you suggest. I'm sick of it.

[Chloe]

You compare the most radically different things to each other to try to prove points. Why do you do this? Can't you come up with some more reasonable things to compare it to?

You're comparing banning plastic bags with killing people in Africa. It really is totally absurd!

Yes and very frustrating. I don't mind having a conversation about this kind of stuff if people don't agree with me but its impossible to even have a conversation when it becomes so unrealistic.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You compare the most radically different things to each other to try to prove points. Why do you do this? Can't you come up with some more reasonable things to compare it to?

You're comparing banning plastic bags with killing people in Africa. It really is totally absurd!

The elephants being slaughtered everyday by poachers in Africa for their tusks would not think of it as absurd, I promise you that.

[Kizzume]

The elephants being slaughtered everyday by poachers in Africa for their tusks would not think of it as absurd, I promise you that.

You're so left field (or should I say Right field) I just have no idea where you're going. Yes, and people die of cancer. And people in South America die of starvation. And people shoot animals for sport. And earthquakes happen that kill lots of people and animals.

Why not make your point about plastic bags without bringing up random things?

You can't be seriously suggesting that we shouldn't try to stop something that can kill animals inadvertently unless we're trying to stop poachers? That would be incredibly stupid.

[Chloe]

Plastic bags are just one of the branches on our tree of freedom that are being threatened by Liberal idiocy. Guns, coal, oil, healthcare, and everything else we as consumers wish to have are being threatened EVERY SINGLE DAY with bans just like the one you suggest. I'm sick of it.

Put all those issues aside for a second and just focus on plastic bags please. If there weren't plastic bags at your super market and instead had reusable bags and recycled paper bags would it really be that horrible of a thing for you and for America? We are talking about things that either end up our in nature or in a landfill. They don't biodegrade and so they just float and sit for a lifetime OR they choke an animal or clog something vital and still sit around for a lifetime afterwards. Banning plastic bags is not going to threaten your freedoms, the bill of rights, the constitution, or anything like that. All it will do is save animals lives, be one less thing to pollute the environment with, and one less thing that will outlive us without having any purpose beyond being trash.

[Chloe]

The elephants being slaughtered everyday by poachers in Africa for their tusks would not think of it as absurd, I promise you that.

Elephants being slaughtered for their tusks is important and another great environmental concern that needs to be handled much better, but it is not even remotely related to plastic bags off the coast of Oregon, in your river system, wrapped around a birds neck, sitting on the side of the road, or any thing like that.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You're so left field (or should I say Right field) I just have no idea where you're going. Yes, and people die of cancer. And people in South America die of starvation. And people shoot animals for sport. And earthquakes happen that kill lots of people and animals.

Why not make your point about plastic bags without bringing up random things?

Her argument is that plastic bags kills animals. I'm saying we should ignore small things like plastic bags and focus on real threats. It's not random at all.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Elephants being slaughtered for their tusks is important and another great environmental concern that needs to be handled much better, but it is not even remotely related to plastic bags off the coast of Oregon, in your river system, wrapped around a birds neck, sitting on the side of the road, or any thing like that.

Like I said, you give me my elephants in Africa and I'll give you your plastic bag ban.

[Chloe]

Her argument is that plastic bags kills animals. I'm saying we should ignore small things like plastic bags and focus on real threats. It's not random at all.

Poaching is a big issue and important, nobody is saying anything different. Littering and littering with things that do not go away, like plastic, is a huge issue because it is global.

[Chloe]

Like I said, you give me my elephants in Africa and I'll give you your plastic bag ban.

That still makes no sense

[GrassrootsConservative]

Poaching is a big issue and important, nobody is saying anything different. Littering and littering with things that do not go away, like plastic, is a huge issue because it is global.

Kizzume said different. Kizzume said it was absurd and random.

[Chloe]

Kizzume said different. Kizzume said it was absurd and random.

he said your comparison was absurd. There are tons of environmental concerns, each are important, but this topic is about plastic bags. You are trying to make a comparison between poaching for ivory and a freedom to shop using plastic bags.

[Chloe]

a freedom that does not exist by the way

[Mister D]

I am going to pick up a few of the canvas bags or whatever they are made of for my groceries.

[GrassrootsConservative]

he said your comparison was absurd. There are tons of environmental concerns, each are important, but this topic is about plastic bags. You are trying to make a comparison between poaching for ivory and a freedom to shop using plastic bags.

A ban on plastic bags would be a waste of time. If we're going to save the planet we need to stop beating around the bush and save the planet.

[Chloe]

A ban on plastic bags would be a waste of time. If we're going to save the planet we need to stop beating around the bush and save the planet.

Think globally, act locally. We just did that in Portland.

[patrickt]

We've already gone over guns and now plastic bags. It might be easier to discuss what Chloe doesn't want banned.

Me, I carry and plastic shopping bag with me--use it a lot before it falls apart--but the "reusable" bag I bought that felt sort of like paper fell apart when it got damp. Not wet. Just damp.

Liberals want to run every minuscule part of your life from what you can buy at the grocery to what you can carry it in. They will never stop until we stop them.

Ban Disposable Condoms

[GrassrootsConservative]

Think globally, act locally. We just did that in Portland.

I believe that action should be a global thing, not a local thing, since it's a global problem. If a hand has 5 broken fingers, you cannot fix that hand just by mending 1 of the fingers.

[Chloe]

We've already gone over guns and now plastic bags. It might be easier to discuss what Chloe doesn't want banned.

Me, I carry and plastic shopping bag with me--use it a lot before it falls apart--but the "reusable" bag I bought that felt sort of like paper fell apart when it got damp. Not wet. Just damp.

Liberals want to run every minuscule part of your life from what you can buy at the grocery to what you can carry it in. They will never stop until we stop them.

When your plastic bag falls apart and you get rid of it what happens to it? It may have fallen apart because of you using it but it wont ever go away.

[Mister D]

I don't think they should be banned but it's easy to use the canvas bags and much less wasteful. Why not?

[Chloe]

I believe that action should be a global thing, not a local thing, since it's a global problem. If a hand has 5 broken fingers, you cannot fix that hand just by mending 1 of the fingers.

How would you fix something globally? Take me for example. How does a 19 year old student in Portland Oregon do something global at one moment that will save the planet?

[GrassrootsConservative]

When your plastic bag falls apart and you get rid of it what happens to it? It may have fallen apart because of you using it but it wont ever go away.

Oh wow. Your problem is bigger than I thought.

[Chloe]

I don't they should be banned but it's easy to use the canvas bags and much less wasteful. Why not?

Thanks. Even if you don't want it banned it still doesn't mean you HAVE to use plastic bags. Thank you.

[Chloe]

Oh wow. Your problem is bigger than I thought.

How many years does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade?

[GrassrootsConservative]

How would you fix something globally? Take me for example. How does a 19 year old student in Portland Oregon do something global at one moment that will save the planet?

You can't. That's why it's a global problem, not a "19 year old student in Portland Oregon" problem.

[GrassrootsConservative]

How many years does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade?

How many plastic bags would it take to fill the planet?

[Chloe]

How many plastic bags would it take to fill the planet?

Keep using them and I am sure we will find out one day in the future. Can you answer my question please?

[Chloe]

You can't. That's why it's a global problem, not a "19 year old student in Portland Oregon" problem.

No I disagree. If more people like me acted locally within their communities then globally things would happen. Waiting for the world to organize in one moment is not going to happen.

[Mister D]

Thanks. Even if you don't want it banned it still doesn't mean you HAVE to use plastic bags. Thank you.

I was thinking about this a few weeks ago, actually. I'm a bachelor right ow anyway so carrying my eats i three or 4 of those bags is easy.

[Kizzume]

Her argument is that plastic bags kills animals. I'm saying we should ignore small things like plastic bags and focus on real threats. It's not random at all.

So you ARE trying to seriously say that we shouldn't try to stop something that can kill animals inadvertently unless we're trying to stop poachers! Well, with that logic, we shouldn't ever try to do anything small to try to take care of a problem if we're not also trying to take care of it in a big way. We should stop all this pink ribbon stuff for breast cancer because it's only covering breast cancer. We shouldn't donate to causes because there's always something worse that you could be trying to help stop.

Your logic is SCREWED!!!!

[GrassrootsConservative]

Keep using them and I am sure we will find out one day in the future. Can you answer my question please?

I haven't used a plastic bag for groceries since I purchased a Petco tote bag for a fundraiser back in probably 2011 or so.

[Chloe]

I haven't used a plastic bag for groceries since I purchased a Petco tote bag for a fundraiser back in probably 2011 or so.

Ok so wait. If you haven't used them why are you defending them? And you still haven't answered my question about how long does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Ok so wait. If you haven't used them why are you defending them? And you still haven't answered my question about how long does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade.

I don't know the answer to that question. And I'm not defending plastic bags. My argument was never about plastic bags, my argument is for those people who make plastic bags and the thousands of employees they need to keep the manufacturing and sale of plastic bags up. My argument is about the freedom of those companies and those employees to provide a product to people that they have the choice to purchase in the free country that they live in. My argument is always about freedom, and your "ban" would be taking freedoms away from people. My argument is about a much bigger principal.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Ok so wait. If you haven't used them why are you defending them? And you still haven't answered my question about how long does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade.

Just because I don't use plastic bags doesn't mean I would be O.K. with a ban on them.
I've never used a gun either, but I'd take a bullet in the fact to stop my government from outlawing them.

[Calypso Jones]

Whoooooosh

[Chloe]

I don't know the answer to that question. And I'm not defending plastic bags. My argument was never about plastic bags, my argument is for those people who make plastic bags and the thousands of employees they need to keep the manufacturing and sale of plastic bags up. My argument is about the freedom of those companies and those employees to provide a product to people that they have the choice to purchase in the free country that they live in. My argument is always about freedom, and your "ban" would be taking freedoms away from people. My argument is about a much bigger principal.

they don't biodegrade. Which means every single plastic bag that is made and that is stocked in a store will NOT ever leave the Earth. You are worried about workers and that is fine. Train them to make something more environmentally conscious and sustainable.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Train them to make something more environmentally conscious and sustainable.

Costs money. Money nobody has because of Liberal regulations and higher taxes.

Or wait... do you want the government to provide this training so that we can be even further indebted to China?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Whoooooosh

Thanks Cal.

[Chloe]

Costs money. Money nobody has because of Liberal regulations and higher taxes.

Or wait... do you want the government to provide this training so that we can be even further indebted to China?

Training costs money sure, and companies should train them in spite of it if they want to survive. If they don't then one day they will be out of a job since public awareness is starting to come around to how harmful plastic bags and other littering pollutants can be to wildlife and to the Earth. If you work in a factory that produces nothing but plastic bags then you should probably receive training for items that will take the place of those bags. Good entrepreneurs didn't wait until something was banned or rendered useless before innovating something else, right?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Training costs money sure, and companies should train them in spite of it if they want to survive. If they don't then one day they will be out of a job since public awareness is starting to come around to how harmful plastic bags and other littering pollutants can be to wildlife and to the Earth. If you work in a factory that produces nothing but plastic bags then you should probably receive training for items that will take the place of those bags. Good entrepreneurs didn't wait until something was banned or rendered useless before innovating something else, right?

Companies literally do not have the money for this any more. I don't think you're aware of just how much money Obama is leeching from this country.

[Chloe]

Companies literally do not have the money for this any more. I don't think you're aware of just how much money Obama is leeching from this country.

It is not Obama's fault that companies that make plastic bags can't come up with a new idea.

[GrassrootsConservative]

It is not Obama's fault that companies that make plastic bags can't come up with a new idea.

Yes it is. Research costs money.

EVERYTHING is Obama's fault.

[Chloe]

Please try to stay on topic though. I really don't want this to turn into an anti-Obama thing.

[patrickt]

It is not Obama's fault that companies that make plastic bags can't come up with a new idea.

When you're fighting for your life you aren't wondering what you'll wear tomorrow.

[GrassrootsConservative]

The topic flows with the conversation, dear. You say you want companies to train and research for something that isn't plastic bags.

I agree with you there, as opposed to a ban, if we were a thriving economy I would wonder why they aren't.

But we're not thriving, Obama is fucking us over big time and these companies have no room or finances to do training and research - they're barely surviving.

[Chloe]

Plastic bags remain at stores because people use them out of convenience and the fact that stores get them so cheap and in giant bulk. If they got rid of plastic bags and gave shoppers other sustainable options they would come around and after one or two shopping trips they'd be over the plastic bags. The store may have to spend a little bit more on recycled paper or a reusable bag but they'd get over it.

[Chloe]

When you're fighting for your life you aren't wondering what you'll wear tomorrow.

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by that? How does this relate to using plastic bags at the store?

[Kizzume]

EVERYTHING is Obama's fault.
LOL!!! Oh my god, I knew some right wingers probably thought this sort of thing, but to actually be stupid enough to say it? Wow!

[Chloe]

The topic flows with the conversation, dear. You say you want companies to train and research for something that isn't plastic bags.

I agree with you there, as opposed to a ban, if we were a thriving economy I would wonder why they aren't.

But we're not thriving, Obama is fucking us over big time and these companies have no room or finances to do training and research - they're barely surviving.

Obama isn't the best and I am not going to pretend he is. I am not a huge fan of his but then again my politics are probably so far to the left for you that it doesn't matter anyway. There are companies out there that are barely surviving sure, but there are companies that most certainly are not barely surviving. If we focus just on plastic bags we are talking about major companies that produce tons of products, and bags are just one of them. Eliminate that line and bring those workers to something else. Machines make most of those plastic bags anyway.

Yes, President Obama is "fucking" up several things in my opinion as well, but the blame is not on one person. It is on the public that continues to be apathetic to environmental causes because it is inconvenient or too small to occupy their time with.

[GrassrootsConservative]

LOL!!! Oh my god, I knew some right wingers probably thought this sort of thing, but to actually be stupid enough to say it? Wow!

You calling me stupid. Lol indeed.

[Jenda]

I have a few tote bags that I keep in my car for groceries. I wash them every once in awhile, but I never put meat in them. The bagger at my local supermarket always offers to bag the meat separately for me in a plastic bag. I use my tote bags for convenience, not really to "save the planet". Sometimes I just use the plastic ones from the supermarket, especially if my plastic bag stash is getting low.

Chloe seems to think that people don't re-use the plastic bags. What's that all about? I use old plastic bags for all kinds of things....but most of all I need at least two plastic bags per day to pick up my Labrador's poop. I also use plastic newspaper bags for this purpose, but I only get one newspaper every day...hence the need to use old plastic grocery bags, too.

Chloe sees using plastic bags at all as "bad". I see re-using plastic bags as a way of "recycling." Plus, I don't have to buy any extra plastic bags that come on a roll or in a box.

[Chloe]

I have a few tote bags that I keep in my car for groceries. I wash them every once in awhile, but I never put meat in them. The bagger at my local supermarket always offers to bag the meat separately for me in a plastic bag. I use my tote bags for convenience, not really to "save the planet". Sometimes I just use the plastic ones from the supermarket, especially if my plastic bag stash is getting low.

Chloe seems to think that people don't re-use the plastic bags. What's that all about? I use old plastic bags for all kinds of things....but most of all I need at least two plastic bags per day to pick up my Labrador's poop. I also use plastic newspaper bags for this purpose, but I only get one newspaper every day...hence the need to use old plastic grocery bags, too.

Chloe sees using plastic bags at all as "bad". I see re-using plastic bags as a way of "recycling." Plus, I don't have to buy any extra plastic bags that come on a roll or in a box.

Those plastic bags will outlast your dog and even you. The reason I want them banned is because you may reuse them now but unless you plan on passing them onto your kids after your die then they will ultimately end up in a landfill somewhere or perhaps even in a river or on a beach. Grocery stores and other retail stores give out thousands of plastic bags every single day in one store alone in many cases. Where do all those bags go? They do not biodegrade so they will go all over the place throughout time, and if they get buried in a landfill somewhere they will still be there in 100 years surrounded by dirt.

[Chloe]

Think about it this way. There are probably a trillion plastic bags on the planet right now with more being produced for retailers every single minute. Where do all those bags go? They don't biodegrade so where do they go? They are a suffocating plague to the environment. There is no other way to say it.

[Chloe]

People will adapt and will make due without plastic bags. They are not important to our lives or to this planet. To somehow think that having to use something other than plastic at a store is somehow anti-freedom, anti-American, or any other anti-something, is just ridiculous and dangerous. You do not have to be passionate about the environment, you don't even have to care about it, but you certainly do not have to have your groceries, your new jeans, or your new toothbrush in a plastic bag in order to continuing living a great life.

[Peter1469]

I'm actually very surprised by how defensive people are about plastic bags on here. I didn't get near this amount of push back when I would talk to people at school and around the city when we were trying to spread the information.

You are in Oregon, correct? That answers the question I think. :wink: (Don't look at me- I use my own bags. I have even gone to WholeFoods with my backpack- full size) I got a few phone numbers over that stunt.

[Mister D]

Chloe, the progressive do-gooder stuff teds to annoy a lot of people but I sympathize on this point.

[Chloe]

Chloe, the progressive do-gooder stuff teds to annoy a lot of people but I sympathize on this point.

Thanks i'm glad I dont annoy you :smiley: I'm not trying to annoy anybody though.

[Chloe]

You are in Oregon, correct? That answers the question I think. :wink: (Don't look at me- I use my own bags. I have even gone to WholeFoods with my backpack- full size) I got a few phone numbers over that stunt.

Well yeah I guess that's true, but I still do not understand how someone can compare freedom to plastic bags.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You are in Oregon, correct? That answers the question I think. :wink: (Don't look at me- I use my own bags. I have even gone to WholeFoods with my backpack- full size) I got a few phone numbers over that stunt.

I would never take a phone number from a Liberal loon swooning over me not using plastic bags.

[Adelaide]

I have a few tote bags that I keep in my car for groceries. I wash them every once in awhile, but I never put meat in them. The bagger at my local supermarket always offers to bag the meat separately for me in a plastic bag. I use my tote bags for convenience, not really to "save the planet". Sometimes I just use the plastic ones from the supermarket, especially if my plastic bag stash is getting low.

Chloe seems to think that people don't re-use the plastic bags. What's that all about? I use old plastic bags for all kinds of things....but most of all I need at least two plastic bags per day to pick up my Labrador's poop. I also use plastic newspaper bags for this purpose, but I only get one newspaper every day...hence the need to use old plastic grocery bags, too.

I'm mostly the same way - I reuse them for so many things. Although, here stores will charge you a small fee for using plastic bags instead of bringing your own "environmentally friendly" bags. I don't mind that so much - it's literally a couple cents per bag. It's meant to encourage people to bring their own, but only older people who want to save money really do it, (sorry to stereotype there, but it seems like older people are all about the best bang for your buck and seems like a generational thing, especially compared to the "mine mine mine" generation I belong to).

[Peter1469]

How many years does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade?

They could be recycled and turned into anything plastic.

[Chloe]

I would never take a phone number from a Liberal loon swooning over me not using plastic bags.

well I dont think you will have to worry about that :grin:

[Chloe]

They could be recycled and turned into anything plastic.

True but the vast majority of plastic bags do not get recycled

[Kizzume]

You calling me stupid. Lol indeed.

Saying that everything is Obama's fault is indeed stupid. LOL indeed.

[Kizzume]

True but the vast majority of plastic bags do not get recycled

That's being worked on. They're trying to change that.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Saying that everything is Obama's fault is indeed stupid. LOL indeed.

Keep calling me stupid, I'm still laughing at you thinking of gay marriage as a political issue.


well I dont think you will have to worry about that :grin:

Let's hope not. My girlfriend would not approve.

[Peter1469]

I would never take a phone number from a Liberal loon swooning over me not using plastic bags.

I respect your choice.

[Chloe]

That's being worked on. They're trying to change that.

hopefully they do but the only problem is that it is a global thing. Even if 100 million bags were recycled today a nw 100 million more will come off the assembly line in an hours time.

[Peter1469]

True but the vast majority of plastic bags do not get recycled

Would that be an acceptable alternative to a ban?

[Kizzume]

Keep calling me stupid, I'm still laughing at you thinking of gay marriage as a political issue.



Let's hope not. My girlfriend would not approve.

And I'm still laughing at you thinking Alex Jones is a reputable source.

[Chloe]

Would that be an acceptable alternative to a ban?

Not for me im sorry to say. I know I probably seem like a radical person around this but it is more of a plague to me than it is a problem. When so many bags are produced every minute around the globe there is no way to keep up without a ban.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Would that be an acceptable alternative to a ban?

Liberals think a ban is the only way to get things done.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Not for me im sorry to say. I know I probably seem like a radical person around this but it is more of a plague to me than it is a problem. When so many bags are produced every minute around the globe there is no way to keep up without a ban.

Lol right on schedule. Like I said.
Nothing short of a ban to make this Liberal queen satisfied.

[Chloe]

Lol right on schedule. Like I said.
Nothing short of a ban to make this Liberal queen satisfied.

In my opinion I think a ban is the only realistic way to get on top of the massive amount of plastic being produced and discarded on a daily basis.

[GrassrootsConservative]

In my opinion I think a ban is the only realistic way to get on top of the massive amount of plastic being produced and discarded on a daily basis.

It's an interesting view, but you seem pretty set on it.

[Peter1469]

Not for me im sorry to say. I know I probably seem like a radical person around this but it is more of a plague to me than it is a problem. When so many bags are produced every minute around the globe there is no way to keep up without a ban.

You have gone from a local ban (very admirable) to a global ban (very jack-bootish). The governmental power for such a thing would be astonishing. I don't think that new government would limit itself to banning plastic bags....

[Chloe]

You have gone from a local ban (very admirable) to a global ban (very jack-bootish). The governmental power for such a thing would be astonishing. I don't think that new government would limit itself to banning plastic bags....

I don't think there will ever truly be a global ban, but if more and more cities around the country start to do it then it could catch on and spread.

[GrassrootsConservative]

You have gone from a local ban (very admirable) to a global ban (very jack-bootish). The governmental power for such a thing would be astonishing. I don't think that new government would limit itself to banning plastic bags....

That is an excellent point.

[Chloe]

also what is jack boot?

[Peter1469]

I don't think there will ever truly be a global ban, but if more and more cities around the country start to do it then it could catch on and spread.

That is what I am talking about. Act locally.

[Calypso Jones]

If your kind hadn't insisted on replacing paper bags we wouldn't be in this mess of longevity of plastic products. Know why they last so long? Because they're buried in a landfill and they allow no light or air in which means these things plus food and anything rapidly biodegradable is mummified.

[Peter1469]

also what is jack boot?

It is a reference to fascism- a form of totalitarianism -- something needed for a worldwide ban (any of the totalitarian governments would do.)

[GrassrootsConservative]

also what is jack boot?

Jack boot is using bully-like strength to force compliance.

[Calypso Jones]

tell. ling.

[Chloe]

If your kind hadn't insisted on replacing paper bags we wouldn't be in this mess of longevity of plastic products. Know why they last so long? Because they're buried in a landfill and they allow no light or air in which means these things plus food and anything rapidly biodegradable is mummified.

My kind?

Also they end up in a lot more places than just landfills. The ocean is littered with it.

[GrassrootsConservative]

My kind?


Liberal loons who insist on banning everything they don't like.

[Peter1469]

My kind?

Also they end up in a lot more places than just landfills. The ocean is littered with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

[Chloe]

Jack boot is using bully-like strength to force compliance.

I don't want to use bully-like force

[GrassrootsConservative]

I don't want to use bully-like force

What Peter said was closer. I just gave my definition for it. The result is the same.

You want to use fear of jail time or fine to get your way.

[Chloe]

That is what I am talking about. Act locally.

I agree, but a ban, even a statewide ban would be a much faster start to it all in my opinion.

[Chloe]

What Peter said was closer. I just gave my definition for it. The result is the same.

You want to use fear of jail time or fine to get your way.

ok look I am not dangerous and I don't want to make people go to jail or anything like that. All I want is for people to realize the harm involved with this stuff and for governments...local, state, federal, whichever, to recognize it as well and come up with a solution that is more than just encouraging people to use a little less.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I agree, but a ban, even a statewide ban would be a much faster start to it all in my opinion.

A "faster start" isn't a good idea. People need a much slower move if you want a global rule of them.

[Calypso Jones]

ok look I am not dangerous and I don't want to make people go to jail or anything like that. All I want is for people to realize the harm involved with this stuff and for governments...local, state, federal, whichever, to recognize it as well and come up with a solution that is more than just encouraging people to use a little less.

well that's sweet but unfortunately you have others with the same mindset that DO want to use jail or fines or anything to force their desired behavior on the rest of humankind.

right off hand i'm thinking Obamacare. UN gun ban. taxes for global warming, not cutting your grass and flying the flag in a HO environ.

[Chloe]

well that's sweet but unfortunately you have others with the same mindset that DO want to use jail or fines or anything to force their desired behavior on the rest of humankind.

right off hand i'm thinking Obamacare. UN gun ban. taxes for global warming, not cutting your grass and flying the flag in a HO environ.

I'm just talking about not having plastic bags be an option at the store anymore. You all are making me out to be some sort of mini dictator that wants to push my radical green agenda onto unsuspecting innocent people while threatening freedom and the american way. I'm just wanting to ban disposable plastic bags and instead use better, more environmentally friendly and safer alternatives.

[Kizzume]

well that's sweet but unfortunately you have others with the same mindset that DO want to use jail or fines or anything to force their desired behavior on the rest of humankind.

Show me where she even slightly suggested this. I've never heard of ANYONE thinking you should go to jail for using a plastic bag, and I'd challenge you to find someone who does.


right off hand i'm thinking Obamacare. UN gun ban. taxes for global warming, not cutting your grass and flying the flag in a HO environ.

Off topic.

[patrickt]

I'm just talking about not having plastic bags be an option at the store anymore. You all are making me out to be some sort of mini dictator that wants to push my radical green agenda onto unsuspecting innocent people while threatening freedom and the american way. I'm just wanting to ban disposable plastic bags and instead use better, more environmentally friendly and safer alternatives.

Let's see. You just want to make plastic bags illegal. I'm sure that's all. Well, and there's the gun thing. Oh, and fur? How about fur? She wearing fur be illegal, too? How about tuna? Tuna's bad, too. Should we ban that, too? How about meat? If not an outright ban a system of food stamps where each person is only allowed say 4 oz. of meat a month.

And, anything banned that increases costs, who will pay? They will. Always, they pay. Somebody else.

Sorry, Chloe, but you're not a mini-dictator but you seem to by dying to have a full-fledged dictator who can ban all the things you, or anyone else on the left, wants banned.

Since we're close to having a majority of people who pay no income tax, we will have a tyranny of the majority which is specifically what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent.

[Conley]

I'm just talking about not having plastic bags be an option at the store anymore. You all are making me out to be some sort of mini dictator that wants to push my radical green agenda onto unsuspecting innocent people while threatening freedom and the american way. I'm just wanting to ban disposable plastic bags and instead use better, more environmentally friendly and safer alternatives.

It's a good point. Humanity survived for thousands of years without plastic bags, I'm sure we'll find a way to carry on without them. :grin:

[Conley]

Let's see. You just want to make plastic bags illegal. I'm sure that's all. Well, and there's the gun thing. Oh, and fur? How about fur? She wearing fur be illegal, too? How about tuna? Tuna's bad, too. Should we ban that, too? How about meat? If not an outright ban a system of food stamps where each person is only allowed say 4 oz. of meat a month.

And, anything banned that increases costs, who will pay? They will. Always, they pay. Somebody else.

Sorry, Chloe, but you're not a mini-dictator but you seem to by dying to have a full-fledged dictator who can ban all the things you, or anyone else on the left, wants banned.

Since we're close to having a majority of people who pay no income tax, we will have a tyranny of the majority which is specifically what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent.

Guns? Tuna? Slippery slope stuff there. "Anything banned increases costs" isn't true. On an individual level, you can bring your own bags to the stores here and they give you a credit...on a bigger level those plastic bags gum up recycling machinery, plug up drains, kill wildlife, require clean up of water ways all of which costs us money if that's your biggest concern here.

[ThirdTerm]

Plastic bags can still be reused as bin bags and the ban which took effect in California will make life miserable for ordinary shoppers who need to bring reusable bags or purchase paper bags for 10 cents each. It's a victory for hard-core environmentalists but this kind of burdensome regulations will affect retail businesses negatively and Toronto took a U-turn on the planned ban on single-use plastic bags this week.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Plastic bags can still be reused as bin bags and the ban which took effect in California will make life miserable for ordinary shoppers who need to bring reusable bags or purchase paper bags for 10 cents each. It's a victory for hard-core environmentalists but this kind of burdensome regulations will affect retail businesses negatively and Toronto took a U-turn on the planned ban on single-use plastic bags this week.

They love their regulations... until it bites them in the butt.

[Mainecoons]

One of the things lost in this discussion is the environmental pollution caused by the production of the various kinds of containers. If one has ever worked on pollution control for a pulp and paper mill, one understands just how much liquid and air pollution these plants produce. The equivalent weight of one paper sack would be probably on the order of 20 or more plastic bags.

Environmentalists are largely emotion driven, as witness our lovely but very naive OP. Very, very often, the "solutions" they favor create a lot more pollution than the problems they are intended to cure. One of my favorites, since I'm a Sanitary Engineer (retired) is the insistence that enviros have for tertiary waste water treatment even when there is clearly sufficient assimilative capacity for less treated effluents. Removing that last 5 percent of pollutants nearly doubles the size, material consumption and energy consumption of a treatment plant.

People who are mal-educated technically, as is true of almost all environmentalists I've come in contact with, do not grasp the concept of total environmental burden which begins with the pollution caused by the fabrication and installation of treatment processes and plants, and also includes the energy and chemical consumption of same. The latter two have very significant and on going pollution burdens associated with them, a fact that these liberal-arts fools who have hijacked the environmental movement and the EPA can't begin to grasp.

Most of the environmental regulation of the last two decades falls into this category. And much of it is destructive of economic activity and hence jobs. Perhaps that has some bearing on why we have an economy that is stuck in nearly 15 percent (the real unemployemnt rate, U6) seemingly perpetually, why hourly earnings continue to decrease, and why people continue to just give up looking for work.

[Chloe]

Plastic bags can still be reused as bin bags and the ban which took effect in California will make life miserable for ordinary shoppers who need to bring reusable bags or purchase paper bags for 10 cents each. It's a victory for hard-core environmentalists but this kind of burdensome regulations will affect retail businesses negatively and Toronto took a U-turn on the planned ban on single-use plastic bags this week.

Yes they can be reused but for how long will someone reuse a plastic bag that does not biodegrade? You certainly won't keep all of those plastic bags from the grocery store with you for the rest of your life and gift them to your family. You'll throw some away after you clean up your house or you'll lose them somewhere along the way if you ever move homes. Then what? Where did those bags go? It happens every single day across the globe. With regards to shoppers if it having to bring canvas or other reusable bags from home or spending 50 cents buying five paper bags makes someones life "miserable" then they have other issues they need to work out. You'd spend more on gum than you'd spend on those paper bags.

Also Toronto made a bad mistake doing what they did. They took a step back in my opinion in favor of big business.

[Chloe]

Let's see. You just want to make plastic bags illegal. I'm sure that's all. Well, and there's the gun thing. Oh, and fur? How about fur? She wearing fur be illegal, too? How about tuna? Tuna's bad, too. Should we ban that, too? How about meat? If not an outright ban a system of food stamps where each person is only allowed say 4 oz. of meat a month.

And, anything banned that increases costs, who will pay? They will. Always, they pay. Somebody else.

Sorry, Chloe, but you're not a mini-dictator but you seem to by dying to have a full-fledged dictator who can ban all the things you, or anyone else on the left, wants banned.

Since we're close to having a majority of people who pay no income tax, we will have a tyranny of the majority which is specifically what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent.

There are a lot of things that I would personally like to see happen but most probably wont ever happen. You and others though are still trying to make some sort of connection between me wanting plastic bags banned and destroying the bill of rights. It's just silly.

[countryboy]

No.

So you sincerely don't care about how wasteful and hazardous plastic can be when it is not in your hand carrying groceries for that five minutes before you throw it in the trash or on the ground? For example the millions of tons of plastic in the ocean off the pacific coast right now is perfectly fine to you?

You libs should learn to recycle the plastic bags instead of throwing them on the ground. WTF, libs create a problem, and then want the gummint to force them into doing the right thing. Oy vey

Seriously, who gets home, puts their groceries away, and then walks back outside and throws their grocery bags on the ground? You do know stores have recycling bins for the plastic bags, right?

Also, do you have any credible evidence that plastic grocery bags are a danger to wildlife? I thought that myth was debunked a long time ago. Plus, by the time you wash the reusable bags, how much better are they really for the environment? Is there a peer reviewed study you can cite?

On a side note, some local small chain grocery stores around here still offer paper bags. But who in their right mind would want them, when you can carry a dozen plastic bags at once?

[Chloe]

You libs should learn to recycle the plastic bags instead of throwing them on the ground. WTF, libs create a problem, and then want the gummint to force them into doing the right thing. Oy vey

Seriously, who gets home, puts their groceries away, and then walks back outside and throws their grocery bags on the ground? You do know stores have recycling bins for the plastic bags, right?

Also, do you have any credible evidence that plastic grocery bags are a danger to wildlife? I thought that myth was debunked a long time ago. Plus, by the time you wash the reusable bags, how much better are they really for the environment? Is there a peer reviewed study you can cite?

On a side note, some local small chain grocery stores around here still offer paper bags. But who in their right mind would want them, when you can carry a dozen plastic bags at once?

The plastic bag problem is a human problem not any one political point of view or belief.

I did not say that people get home and go throw plastic bags onto the ground. Plastic bags basically have just a few life cycle options once you get home with your groceries, new clothes, or whatever you bought: 1. the trash, which then means dump or landfill, 2. in a cabinet somewhere to be reused once or twice to carry your lunch in or something like that and then thrown in the trash afterwards, 3. you put in your garage or in your car and somewhere along the way it falls out and just floats in the air down the sidewalk or beach, 4. it goes to a landfill but the wind carries it away into the woods, a river system, or something like that, and so on and so on. But the main point is that one life cycle of a plastic bag that will never happen is that bag biodegrading and leaving the planet for good.

Credible evidence for plastic bags being a danger to wildlife? There is no way you are being serious. Let me ask you this...a plastic bag floating in the ocean or along a beach, what kind if animal can that resemble to a sea turtle or bird? How about a jellyfish...A sea turtle comes along and takes a big bite out of a plastic bag thinking it's food, it may be ok after taking that bite or it may actually choke, or the open handle of the bag wraps around its neck. How would you like to have a plastic bag around your neck for days, weeks, or months since you don't have hands to unwrap it with? A seagull grabs a chunk of plastic bag mistaking it for food and feeds it to baby sea gulls. Plastic has no nutritional value so the baby birds aren't actually eating anything and could possible starve if fed enough plastic. These aren't made up issues. They happen every day and those are just two small examples.

Are you ok with millions of tons of plastic garbage floating in the pacific ocean right now just because you aren't seeing it with your own eyes and you disagree with certain politics?

On a side note you can carry far more groceries in a larger reusable canvas or recycled material bag than you can one traditional plastic bag.

[Chloe]

Some of you guys are just so adamant about sticking it to the environmentalists, the environment, and the "left" that you knowingly do things that are harmful just out of spite and some weird since of american pride.

[Chloe]

FYI on a quick glance statistic on a local website here in Portland, if plastic bags were banned statewide here in Oregon then that would mean 1.7 billion less plastic bags in this state. 1.7 billion less plastic bags just in Oregon alone if it was a statewide ban. Now tell me this, once 1.7 billion plastic bags are made in a factory where do those bags go and how long do they stay on this planet? There are 7 billion people on Earth. Oregon would save 1.7 billion plastic bags with a statewide ban. There are trillions of plastic bags on Earth right now and they will never leave us. Think about that please.

[Mister D]

Some of you guys are just so adamant about sticking it to the environmentalists, the environment, and the "left" that you knowingly do things that are harmful just out of spite and some weird since of american pride.

Part of the reason for that is your insistence on a ban. That rubs a lot of folks the wrong way and understandably so. While I sympathize with your cause it might be a better idea to speak less of bans and more about enviromentally responsible behavior. I see plenty of folks using canvas bags in NJ. Supermarkets also offer a discount for not using their plastic bags.

[Chloe]

Part of the reason for that is your insistence on a ban. That rubs a lot of folks the wrong way and understandably so. While I sympathize with your cause it might be a better idea to speak less of bans and more about enviromentally responsible behavior. I see plenty of folks using canvas bags in NJ. Supermarkets also offer a discount for not using their plastic bags.

I guess I could be a little softer in my way of talking about it

[Mister D]

I guess I could be a little softer with my way of talking it

I think it would be more effective. No one wants to ruin the environment and we can all agree that a cleaner envrionment is desireable and possible.

[Kabuki Joe]

Yep which we did in Portland. I just wish more cities and communities would do the same


...keep Portland weird...


Kabuki Joe

[Kabuki Joe]

You compare the most radically different things to each other to try to prove points. Why do you do this? Can't you come up with some more reasonable things to compare it to?

You're comparing banning plastic bags with killing people in Africa. It really is totally absurd!

...it's the idea...


Kabuki Joe

[Kabuki Joe]

I'm actually very surprised by how defensive people are about plastic bags on here. I didn't get near this amount of push back when I would talk to people at school and around the city when we were trying to spread the information.


...because Portland is full of weirdos like you...DUH!...


Kabuki Joe

[GrassrootsConservative]

...it's the idea...


Kabuki Joe

Lol, don't try to reason with those too unintelligent to understand comparisons and exaggerations.

[Mister D]

Portland ranks consistently as one of the best cities in which to live. It's also overwhelmingly white. Go figure. I'll take some zealous enviromentalists over the "diversity" of an American metropolis any day. Apparently, I'm not alone.

[Kabuki Joe]

No I disagree. If more people like me acted locally within their communities then globally things would happen. Waiting for the world to organize in one moment is not going to happen.


...I'm so thankful god created you because you are a blessing...please, get over yourself and focus on the real problems in Portland like homelessness...


Kabuki Joe

[Kabuki Joe]

Ok so wait. If you haven't used them why are you defending them? And you still haven't answered my question about how long does it take for a plastic bag to biodegrade.


...you aren't getting it, the issue is you deciding for him what he shouldn't use and why when it's none of your business...


Kabuki Joe

[Kabuki Joe]

When you're fighting for your life you aren't wondering what you'll wear tomorrow.


...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...I give that an 11 on 1 to 10...


Kabuki Joe

[Chloe]

...I'm so thankful god created you because you are a blessing...please, get over yourself and focus on the real problems in Portland like homelessness...


Kabuki Joe

I didn't mean that in an arrogant way I was just saying that acting locally can become global if everyone pitched in in their community or city to addressing issues like what my friends and I did. Also I care about homelessness too but it is possible to have multiple causes.

[Chloe]

...you aren't getting it, the issue is you deciding for him what he shouldn't use and why when it's none of your business...


Kabuki Joe

Extreme litter, pollution, and things that can harm the planet and wildlife is our business

[Carygrant]

Chloe , You are 100% right . Either these dipsticks are brain dead Hilly Billy people or they are pulling your leg . Of course selfish , brain dead people should use re-usable bags .
But because there are so many idiots around , the best way to punish them is to charge for every plastic bag issued at any sort of retail and wholesale place . And charge heavy . A dollar for one little bag is about right .
And if they don't like it and start bleating , tell them to follow the example of their European superiors , and , regardless --- go lump it .

[bladimz]

Let's see. You just want to make plastic bags illegal. I'm sure that's all. Well, and there's the gun thing. Oh, and fur? How about fur? She wearing fur be illegal, too? How about tuna? Tuna's bad, too. Should we ban that, too? How about meat? If not an outright ban a system of food stamps where each person is only allowed say 4 oz. of meat a month.

And, anything banned that increases costs, who will pay? They will. Always, they pay. Somebody else.

Sorry, Chloe, but you're not a mini-dictator but you seem to by dying to have a full-fledged dictator who can ban all the things you, or anyone else on the left, wants banned.

Since we're close to having a majority of people who pay no income tax, we will have a tyranny of the majority which is specifically what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent.<Yeah, you got that right. Next thing you know, she'll want to ban abortion totally.>

Why can't you simply respond to her concerns with the negative impact that pastic has on the environment; she's not hassling anyone here. She's making a clear point. The more animals it kills is that much less food for us carnivores. Hey, maybe someday, humans will genetically mutate to a point where we can consume pastic bags as part of a daily balanced diet, and to hell with fish and meat.

Mmmmm... i'll have me another one of those plastic and oil sammiches, please!

[Calypso Jones]

I don't think you get the point. We wouldn't be in this plastic mess if envirowhacko had left PAPER BAGS ALONE. What's next after the reusables? Will that be it? Will they be satisfied?? history says hardly.

[Chloe]

I don't think you get the point. We wouldn't be in this plastic mess if envirowhacko had left PAPER BAGS ALONE. What's next after the reusables? Will that be it? Will they be satisfied?? history says hardly.

We can't go back and change history. The best we can do right now is realize that plastic bags are a big environmental problem and that they need to go, and come up with better alternatives for us to use to carry things in that are earth friendly and biodegradable.

[bladimz]

Also, do you have any credible evidence that plastic grocery bags are a danger to wildlife? I thought that myth was debunked a long time ago. Plus, by the time you wash the reusable bags, how much better are they really for the environment? Is there a peer reviewed study you can cite? Here's a quick study you can make right at home: why don't you take a nice big bite out of a pastic bag, swallow it and jot down your findings. That should give you a hint.

[bladimz]

I guess I could be a little softer in my way of talking about it
No... you're doing just fine. It wouldn't matter how you word it. You're instantly labelled a leftist, a lib. Mr. D does make a good observation, though. The word "ban" immediately brings their blood to a boil.

People are idiots. They want the right to make whatever decision they want, no matter what the consequences. I want to enjoy my rights, too. But when the consequences outweigh the convenience that my decision affords me, it's time to re-think the decision. It's called "personal responsibility".

[Mainecoons]

No one has a problem with personal responsibility. When it becomes a problem is when folks like yourself think government has a boundless obligation to impose and enforce endless rules based on their idea of responsibility. What usually happens is that a bunch of people give up being personally responsible and enslave themselves to government.

A process that is quite far advanced in the U.S. these days.

[bladimz]

I don't think you get the point. We wouldn't be in this plastic mess if envirowhacko had left PAPER BAGS ALONE. What's next after the reusables? Will that be it? Will they be satisfied?? history says hardly.Well, the number of trees used to make paper bags was, i think, the driving force behind the alternative; plastic bags. Well, now the side effects of the use of countless plastic bags has become extremely evident and it needs to be addressed. There are those who don't give a crap about it, but there are plenty who do. So, although i have no problem with a ban, the more realistic approach is to give a discount for using re-usable bags. And this is the part i like: some will see this as a discount. Others will see it as a tax when using plastic bags.

And here's something that maybe has been overlooked here. Has anyone thought about the amount of crude oil that is used to make these bags? If, as so many believe, we are suffering some kind of oil shortage, why would anyone want to see this precious commodity wasted to make these bags?

[Chloe]

<Yeah, you got that right. Next thing you know, she'll want to ban abortion totally.>

Why can't you simply respond to her concerns with the negative impact that pastic has on the environment; she's not hassling anyone here. She's making a clear point. The more animals it kills is that much less food for us carnivores. Hey, maybe someday, humans will genetically mutate to a point where we can consume pastic bags as part of a daily balanced diet, and to hell with fish and meat.

Mmmmm... i'll have me another one of those plastic and oil sammiches, please!

FYI I am a vegetarian so from my point of view I am just wanting to save the wildlife from the dangers of those plastic bags and not really to give you more meat to eat :smiley:

[bladimz]

No one has a problem with personal responsibility. When it becomes a problem is when folks like yourself think government has a boundless obligation to impose and enforce endless rules based on their idea of responsibility. What usually happens is that a bunch of people give up being personally responsible and enslave themselves to government.

A process that is quite far advanced in the U.S. these days.The person who believes in personal responsibility doesn't need government to monitor or control decision-making. Personal responsibility means making decisions based on the consequences of those decisions and then be willing to accept the responsibility for those consequences.

Unfortunately, there's too many people who don't see personal responsibility as anything more than a catch-phrase used to imply that government regulations aren't necessary because everyone will take responsibility for their actions. We all know that's not true. Look no further than the number of hit-and-run incidents in this country every year...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/us/almost-1-in-5-pedestrian-deaths-are-tied-to-hit-and-run-drivers.html

Something's very lacking there...

<Oh yes. My utopia is when my government controls every phase of life for all americans, all at it's discretion. I'd especially like it if we have nothing to say about any of the regulations, and no right to protest or reject it's regulations.>

[bladimz]

FYI I am a vegetarian so from my point of view I am just wanting to save the wildlife from the dangers of those plastic bags and not really to give you more meat to eat :smiley:
I appreciate that, but i am commenting on the additional concerns that us meat-eaters should consider.

(Do you eat fish?)

[Chloe]

I appreciate that, but i am commenting on the additional concerns that us meat-eaters should consider.

(Do you eat fish?)

Oh I know I was just joking around. I've eaten fish before when I was little and then a couple of years ago when I was camping but that's about it.

[Kabuki Joe]

Portland ranks consistently as one of the best cities in which to live. It's also overwhelmingly white. Go figure. I'll take some zealous enviromentalists over the "diversity" of an American metropolis any day. Apparently, I'm not alone.


...white liberals like this 19 year old...a city full of 19 year old that want to save everything but the huge homeless population...


Kabuki Joe

[bladimz]

...white liberals like this 19 year old...a city full of 19 year old that want to save everything but the huge homeless population...


Kabuki Joe
That can be your project,KJ. :wink:

[Kabuki Joe]

Oh I know I was just joking around. I've eaten fish before when I was little and then a couple of years ago when I was camping but that's about it.



...that's so cute, "when I was little"...


Kabuki Joe

[Kabuki Joe]

That can be your project,KJ. :wink:


...nope...I've learned you can't save people from themselves no matter how hard you try...


Kabuki Joe

[Chloe]

...white liberals like this 19 year old...a city full of 19 year old that want to save everything but the huge homeless population...


Kabuki Joe

What makes you think we don't want to help homeless people? Most normal people are not happy about seeing homeless people on the street. There are a lot of things that we could all do better and things that we could help make better.

[bladimz]

...nope...I've learned you can't save people from themselves no matter how hard you try...

Kabuki Joe
You brought it up here on this thread twice. I guess you've tried. Oh well, that's all you can do.

[Calypso Jones]

The person who believes in personal responsibility doesn't need government to monitor or control decision-making. Personal responsibility means making decisions based on the consequences of those decisions and then be willing to accept the responsibility for those consequences.

Unfortunately, there's too many people who don't see personal responsibility as anything more than a catch-phrase used to imply that government regulations aren't necessary because everyone will take responsibility for their actions. We all know that's not true. Look no further than the number of hit-and-run incidents in this country every year...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/us/almost-1-in-5-pedestrian-deaths-are-tied-to-hit-and-run-drivers.html

Something's very lacking there...

<Oh yes. My utopia is when my government controls every phase of life for all americans, all at it's discretion. I'd especially like it if we have nothing to say about any of the regulations, and no right to protest or reject it's regulations.>

which translates to...if you don't believe that the earth is warming/cooling, that going alternative energy, voluntarily purchasing low water flush toilets, florescent bulbs, etc etc etc then we will have to legislate your acquiescence seeing as you don't believe the WAY EYE BELIEVE. in spite of the evidence to the contrary or, no evidence.

[bladimz]

which translates to...if you don't believe that the earth is warming/cooling, that going alternative energy, voluntarily purchasing low water flush toilets, florescent bulbs, etc etc etc then we will have to legislate your acquiescence seeing as you don't believe the WAY EYE BELIEVE. in spite of the evidence to the contrary or, no evidence.How you translate it is up to you. I'm simply explaining what my interpretation of personal responsibility is... If you decide to dump your waste oil in a hole in your yard, and your neighbor's well water goes bad because of it, it's your responsibility to pay for the clean up.

If you don't believe in any of the science that points to climate change, or that man has no control over it, you make your decision based on that. If you seriously don't think that plastic bags needlessly injure or kill a significant number of animals, if you don't think that they are environmentally damaging, if you don't think it's a waste of good crude oil to make these bags, then use them all the time, every time. But if any one of these issues gives you pause, and you choose to ignore it, you are not being true to your sense of personal responsibility.

Even if you doubt the validity of climate change and its causes, what would it hurt to use those newer florescent bulbs, and the low-flush toilets, etc. Is it somehow a threat to your freedom??

[GrassrootsConservative]

which translates to...if you don't believe that the earth is warming/cooling, that going alternative energy, voluntarily purchasing low water flush toilets, florescent bulbs, etc etc etc then we will have to legislate your acquiescence seeing as you don't believe the WAY EYE BELIEVE. in spite of the evidence to the contrary or, no evidence.

That's the way Liberalism works.

[nic34]

That's the way Liberalism works.

Really? Is that the Canadian kind or is it like the British or the Frenchy kind? :cool2:

[Chloe]

How you translate it is up to you. I'm simply explaining what my interpretation of personal responsibility is... If you decide to dump your waste oil in a hole in your yard, and your neighbor's well water goes bad because of it, it's your responsibility to pay for the clean up.

If you don't believe in any of the science that points to climate change, or that man has no control over it, you make your decision based on that. If you seriously don't think that plastic bags needlessly injure or kill a significant number of animals, if you don't think that they are environmentally damaging, if you don't think it's a waste of good crude oil to make these bags, then use them all the time, every time. But if any one of these issues gives you pause, and you choose to ignore it, you are not being true to your sense of personal responsibility.

Even if you doubt the validity of climate change and its causes, what would it hurt to use those newer florescent bulbs, and the low-flush toilets, etc. Is it somehow a threat to your freedom??

That was said much better than I could have ever said it

[GrassrootsConservative]

How you translate it is up to you. I'm simply explaining what my interpretation of personal responsibility is... If you decide to dump your waste oil in a hole in your yard, and your neighbor's well water goes bad because of it, it's your responsibility to pay for the clean up.

If you don't believe in any of the science that points to climate change, or that man has no control over it, you make your decision based on that. If you seriously don't think that plastic bags needlessly injure or kill a significant number of animals, if you don't think that they are environmentally damaging, if you don't think it's a waste of good crude oil to make these bags, then use them all the time, every time. But if any one of these issues gives you pause, and you choose to ignore it, you are not being true to your sense of personal responsibility.

Even if you doubt the validity of climate change and its causes, what would it hurt to use those newer florescent bulbs, and the low-flush toilets, etc. Is it somehow a threat to your freedom??

It is when you want to fuckin ban it. It's a threat to everyone's freedoms when you ban something so inane as plastic bags. Why don't we go to Africa and slaughter some poachers who are killing elephants for tusks? Why do you want to limit freedoms here, and let other countries do what they want? I get the environmental thing and all that, yeah, save the planet. But why do something so small?

That's the problem with you Liberals. You don't do anything that promotes actual activity when you ban stuff. A plastic bag ban, and a gun ban, and a Christmas ban. When will it stop? You want to fix the world? Fine. Let's do it in a way that helps do something besides ruin America. People here make those plastic bags, and make money off them, have jobs because of them. You know who makes money off poaching animals?

Criminals. Thugs. Murderers. Thieves.

Why don't we start there instead of with some pointless plastic bag ban. Think of how big the earth is, then think about how many plastic bags you could store in a landfill even just 1 square mile wide and 12 feet deep.

A lot of bags, right? That's a small ass chunk of land compared to the size of the earth. A plastic bag ban would do nothing but piss people off. You know who would be happy to see poachers in Africa be dealt with? Everyone. I don't know a single person who would put some poacher who makes money off killing elephants and sawing their tusks off over the lives of those elephants. Would you? Our president would, but that's probably about it.

Remember, your inane bans help no one, and do not promote actual action. When you do something that actually makes a difference, people notice.

Can you think of one Democrat concept that has ever actually been implemented here in America that has objectively helped the country? I know that's a subjective question, but try and think of something or find something that Democrats have done here in America that the general consensus has been that it was successful.

Don't strain yourself.

[nic34]

No one has a problem with personal responsibility. When it becomes a problem is when folks like yourself think government has a boundless obligation to impose and enforce endless rules based on their idea of responsibility. What usually happens is that a bunch of people give up being personally responsible and enslave themselves to government.

A process that is quite far advanced in the U.S. these days.

What you call 'enslavement' I call living in a civilized society.
Don't like the rules? Fix 'em or get a homestead in Montana....

[GrassrootsConservative]

What you call 'enslavement' I call living in a civilized society.
Don't like the rules? Fix 'em or get a homestead in Montana....

Of course you do. You wouldn't know what civilized is.
Civilized is freedom. You think when America was having the big immigration boom people were coming here because we weren't civilized?
Ha ha fucking ha. America has never been as civilized as when it was first founded in the name of freedom.

[Kabuki Joe]

You brought it up here on this thread twice. I guess you've tried. Oh well, that's all you can do.

...I volunteered with my mother in a gang kid program and it's very disheartening to hear a kid you have put a lot of time and effort in shoot someone...1 in 10 of these kids turning around is possible but not probable...I'm just bugged by people that are programed by our liberal school system to not care about humanity...abortion anyone?...


Kabuki Joe

[Randy]

If you ban plastic bags you need to ban everything plastic. That is if your true concern is for the environment and not a visual thing. Lets also ban disposable diapers, pvc pipe, knee replacement parts, Ben Wa beads, shampoo bottles, etc. Lets save the planet!

[nic34]

Can you think of one Democrat concept that has ever actually been implemented here in America that has objectively helped the country

• Social Security

• Medicare, Medicaid, Healthcare Reform, Food Safety (In 1959 35.2 percent of Americans over 65 were living below the poverty line, compared with 17 percent of those under 65. Today, about 10 percent of seniors are living in poverty)
• New Deal, Great Society, Peace Corp, Vista, Job Corp

• Civil Rights, Women’s Right to Vote, Equal Rights, The Voting Rights Act, Equal Pay Act, Motor Voter

• Consumer Protection, FDIC, Banking and Wall Street Regulations, SEC, Federal Reserve System, Anti-trust Legislation

• Funding for Science, Medical and Engineering Research, Space Exploration, NSF, NIH

• Support for Public Education, Head Start, School Lunch and Breakfast Programs

• NLRB, 8 hr. Work Day/40 hr. Work Week, Overtime, Unemployment

• Protection for the Environment, Increased Numbers and Support of National Parks and Wilderness Areas, Endangered Species Act, FEMA

• Veterans’ Benefits, GI Bill

• UN, NATO, Marshall Plan

• Vehicles Safety Requirements, Reduced Emissions, and Fuel Economy Standards (CAFE)

• TVA, Federal Loan Program, PBS, NPR, the Internet

• Economic Growth (Democratic Presidents: Roosevelt through Obama)

You're more than welcome to forego the participation in any of these or dispute as you wish. I hear the weather in Montana is great. The rest of us will continue to live in a civilized nation.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Again, do you dispute that back when America was free and we were having a big immigration boom, that the people who were coming here were doing so because we weren't civilized?

[Chloe]

It is when you want to fuckin ban it. It's a threat to everyone's freedoms when you ban something so inane as plastic bags. Why don't we go to Africa and slaughter some poachers who are killing elephants for tusks? Why do you want to limit freedoms here, and let other countries do what they want? I get the environmental thing and all that, yeah, save the planet. But why do something so small?

That's the problem with you Liberals. You don't do anything that promotes actual activity when you ban stuff. A plastic bag ban, and a gun ban, and a Christmas ban. When will it stop? You want to fix the world? Fine. Let's do it in a way that helps do something besides ruin America. People here make those plastic bags, and make money off them, have jobs because of them. You know who makes money off poaching animals?

Criminals. Thugs. Murderers. Thieves.

Why don't we start there instead of with some pointless plastic bag ban. Think of how big the earth is, then think about how many plastic bags you could store in a landfill even just 1 square mile wide and 12 feet deep.

A lot of bags, right? That's a small ass chunk of land compared to the size of the earth. A plastic bag ban would do nothing but piss people off. You know who would be happy to see poachers in Africa be dealt with? Everyone. I don't know a single person who would put some poacher who makes money off killing elephants and sawing their tusks off over the lives of those elephants. Would you? Our president would, but that's probably about it.

Remember, your inane bans help no one, and do not promote actual action. When you do something that actually makes a difference, people notice.

Can you think of one Democrat concept that has ever actually been implemented here in America that has objectively helped the country? I know that's a subjective question, but try and think of something or find something that Democrats have done here in America that the general consensus has been that it was successful.

Don't strain yourself.

Oh my god you're just completely gone. Poaching is already illegal. The military in those African countries seek out poachers every single day to arrest, however, just like here in the United States people still find ways to kill animals for whatever reason. It's horrible and needs to be stopped altogether all over the world and not just in Africa.

You have no idea how many plastic bags are already on this planet, it's in the trillions! With billions more being made every single year. If you think one square mile of plastic buried in the Earth will solve the problem then you have no idea how big it actually is. Plastic bag pollution and waste is not inane. The PAcific ocean has a gigantic area of plastic and trash floating in it as we speak, and that's just one part of the world. It mixes with seaweed, wood, and other forms of trash to form basically trash islands that litter the ocean and the coast lines. Animals eat this trash and get caught in this trash all over the world every single day. Then it washes up on the shore and causes more issues. Inane? Absolutely not.

You can keep trying to trivialize the impact that this stuff has on the environment just so you can keep thinking that freedom is all we ever need on this planet in order to survive, but one day you will go out for a nice kayak trip along the coast in 15-20 years and you'll see what apathy looks like at that point. The fact that you are so adamant about protecting plastic bags over the environment and the fact that you are pretending to care so much about the workers who make plastic just so you can have some sort of justification for being apathetic to the issue is just disgusting.

You don't like the word "ban" and that's fine. You see it as your constitutional right to use a plastic bag and whatever happens to that bag afterwards well then that's just freedom in action, but your apathy towards the issue is what makes the issue worse for everybody. You and millions of people like you that have the whole "out of sight, out of mind" philosophy and that people like me are just radical nut jobs that want to oppress you because you can't waste anymore. But oh well I can wave my flag and yell out liberty and that fixes it all, right?

[bladimz]

...I volunteered with my mother in a gang kid program and it's very disheartening to hear a kid you have put a lot of time and effort in shoot someone...1 in 10 of these kids turning around is possible but not probable...I'm just bugged by people that are programed by our liberal school system to not care about humanity...abortion anyone?...


Kabuki JoeUncaring americans are now the result of a "liberal" school system? Where the fuck do you come up with this stuff. Uncaring americans are raised by their fucking uncaring, disinterested parents.

Pardon my french.

[Chloe]

If you ban plastic bags you need to ban everything plastic. That is if your true concern is for the environment and not a visual thing. Lets also ban disposable diapers, pvc pipe, knee replacement parts, Ben Wa beads, shampoo bottles, etc. Lets save the planet!

So then what you are saying is that since we can't ban it all then anything goes? Plastic bags in the ocean, in rivers, in parks, is not just a visual thing, it kills wildlife every day. It is possible to pick and choose things to help the environment. You can't do it all in one day at one time.

[nic34]

Again, do you dispute that back when America was free and we were having a big immigration boom, that the people who were coming here were doing so because we weren't civilized?


People came (come) here for a fresh start, to participate in the existing society and yes, to set up their OWN rules.

You and your gang are also free to do that, but keep in mind, there are over 300 million of us here, and there's gonna be a lotta rules no matter WHO'S in charge....

[GrassrootsConservative]

People came (come) here for a fresh start, to participate in the existing society and yes, to set up their OWN rules.

You and your gang are also free to do that, but keep in mind, there are over 300 million of us here, and there's gonna be a lotta rules no matter WHO'S in charge....

We are no longer going to be free in 2016 if Obama stays in power.
You and everyone else are going to be the slaves that you (apparently) wish to be.

[Chloe]

We are no longer going to be free in 2016 if Obama stays in power.
You and everyone else are going to be the slaves that you (apparently) wish to be.

I'm pretty much certain that Obama can't and won't be president in 2016

[Kabuki Joe]

Uncaring americans are now the result of a "liberal" school system? Where the fuck do you come up with this stuff. Uncaring americans are raised by their fucking uncaring, disinterested parents.

Pardon my french.


...so who controls the school system in American?...liberals or conservatives?...


Kabuki Joe

[bladimz]

It is when you want to fuckin ban it. It's a threat to everyone's freedoms when you ban something so inane as plastic bags. Why don't we go to Africa and slaughter some poachers who are killing elephants for tusks? Why do you want to limit freedoms here, and let other countries do what they want? I get the environmental thing and all that, yeah, save the planet. But why do something so small?

That's the problem with you Liberals. You don't do anything that promotes actual activity when you ban stuff. A plastic bag ban, and a gun ban, and a Christmas ban. When will it stop? You want to fix the world? Fine. Let's do it in a way that helps do something besides ruin America. People here make those plastic bags, and make money off them, have jobs because of them.That's the problem with you. You'd rather just do nothing at all. I don't think you get the environmental thing at all. If you did, you wouldn't have said "why do something so small?" Why do you think that eliminating as much interactive plastic as possible is a "small" project? Are you saying that it's meaningless? I'm just asking because i want to be sure i don't misunderstand you... Additionally, what makes you think that this tiny project can't morph into something much larger. Something that will maybe create even more jobs, and create a whole new industry... I've got a secret... America is part of the world, my friend. And the whole world is broken. If you want to fix the world, you have to start at home. Even if it's just something "small". Nah... that'd be silly.

[Chloe]

...so who controls the school system in American?...liberals or conservatives?...


Kabuki Joe

It's a mixture. Both parties have helped and also screwed up the school system.

[Kizzume]

We are no longer going to be free in 2016 if Obama stays in power.
You and everyone else are going to be the slaves that you (apparently) wish to be.

Maybe if you repeat the conspiracy enough, it'll come true. :rolleyes:

[Calypso Jones]

We can't go back and change history. The best we can do right now is realize that plastic bags are a big environmental problem and that they need to go, and come up with better alternatives for us to use to carry things in that are earth friendly and biodegradable.



THAT is the problem. Leftist do NOT think thru the problem. The Law of Unintended consequences. Leftists meddle in the name of the good of society and what they actually do...because they do not think it thru.....is to make things worse for EVERYone.
Now we all must pay extra money for this or that new bag and we are going to see an increase in illness and infections because YOU might wash your grocery bag once in a while but others will NEVER EVER wash them. Just like banning DDT was going to preserve the wildlife population, particularly birds and what we've seen is millions of unnecessary deaths from mosquitos. Perfect example of leftist problem solving. And all of us are stuck with it.

NOW the US, under Obamannihilator has determined that the spotted owl needs more help for survival and he has closed off more land from lumbering or anything else when the actual culprit for the spotted owl demise is the Bard Owl...which Obama is going to allow people to shoot in order to diminish their numbers. I can only wonder at the future environmental impact of that little strategy.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I'm pretty much certain that Obama can't and won't be president in 2016

I hope you're right. But your math is wrong. His reelection inauguration isn't til January at which point he will be given 4 more years until January 2017 unless he is impeached for his many counts of blatant constitutional disrespect and the fact that he wasn't born on American soil.

[Chloe]

THAT is the problem. Leftist do NOT think thru the problem. The Law of Unintended consequences. Leftists meddle in the name of the good of society and what they actually do...because they do not think it thru.....is to make things worse for EVERYone.

But getting rid of disposable plastic bags at grocery stores, retail stores, and so on will not make anything worse for everybody. It will only help in my opinion.

[bladimz]

We are no longer going to be free in 2016 if Obama stays in power.
You and everyone else are going to be the slaves that you (apparently) wish to be.
As long as you still have your guns, you have a chance. Quick! Save yourself! Before he gets your guns!!

[Kizzume]

But getting rid of disposable plastic bags at grocery stores, retail stores, and so on will not make anything worse for everybody. It will only help in my opinion.

? Um, what? Inconveniences aren't helpful.

[Kabuki Joe]

But getting rid of disposable plastic bags at grocery stores, retail stores, and so on will not make anything worse for everybody. It will only help in my opinion.


...but what about my opinion?...


Kabuki Joe

[bladimz]

I hope you're right. But your math is wrong. His reelection inauguration isn't til January at which point he will be given 4 more years until January 2017 unless he is impeached for his many counts of blatant constitutional disrespect and the fact that he wasn't born on American soil.
Birther Alert!

[Chloe]

I hope you're right. But your math is wrong. His reelection inauguration isn't til January at which point he will be given 4 more years until January 2017 unless he is impeached for his many counts of blatant constitutional disrespect and the fact that he wasn't born on American soil.

I think you knew what I meant

[Chloe]

...but what about my opinion?...


Kabuki Joe

What is your opinion on plastic bags from places like grocery stores and retail stores? Are they harmful or helpful to the environment and to wildlife in general? And if there are trillions of bags on this planet right now and they are not biodegradable, is that a good or bad thing?

[Chloe]

? Um, what? Inconveniences aren't helpful.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but if you are then I'm not saying you have to carry your groceries in your arms. There are other bags that you can easily use that are better and more environmentally friendly.

[bladimz]

For those who complain about the inconvenience of having to live without plastic bags: Take a nice big bite out of a plastic bag, wash it down with a glass of milk and see just how inconvenient they can be.

[Kabuki Joe]

It's a mixture. Both parties have helped and also screwed up the school system.


...so prayer is still allowed in school?...religious ideals?...religious group meetings?...the liberlas are gradually pushing this out in the name gay pride...and plastic bag banning...


Kabuki Joe

[GrassrootsConservative]

I think you knew what I meant

I think so, too, but there are plenty of ignorant Libs here who might believe you and I wanted to get the correction up there before they started to totally wig out.

[Conley]

This thread has really opened my eyes...

I had no idea some folks loved their plastic baggies so much. To read some of the folks on here, plastic bags are totally harmless! Good thing they come with those warnings about not putting them over your head or we might have lost those quality posters who think this is all a liberal conspiracy :shocked:

Oh and by the way plastic-bag-defenders, burying your head in the sand -- also not safe! :grin:

[Chloe]

I think so, too, but there are plenty of ignorant Libs here who might believe you and I wanted to get the correction up there before they started to totally wig out.

I appreciate that

[Calypso Jones]

For those who complain about the inconvenience of having to live without plastic bags: Take a nice big bite out of a plastic bag, wash it down with a glass of milk and see just how inconvenient they can be.

Why don't you do that with your car tires.

[Chloe]

This thread has really opened my eyes...

I had no idea some folks loved their plastic baggies so much. To read some of the folks on here, plastic bags are totally harmless! Good thing they come with those warnings about not putting them over your head or we might have lost those quality posters who think this is all a liberal conspiracy :shocked:

Oh and by the way plastic-bag-defenders, burying your head in the sand -- also not safe! :grin:

It's so weird to me too. I don't think I came across one person against it when I was out talking to people about the petition here in Portland, but on here it's like you are taking their home away from them.

[Kabuki Joe]

What is your opinion on plastic bags from places like grocery stores and retail stores? Are they harmful or helpful to the environment and to wildlife in general? And if there are trillions of bags on this planet right now and they are not biodegradable, is that a good or bad thing?


...honey, it don't matter, you have your mind set that your opinion is more important then mine...


Kabuki Joe

[GrassrootsConservative]

Birther Alert!

Here's an alert for you, moronic dickass.

(http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii)http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii

Feel free to apologize.

[Chloe]

...so prayer is still allowed in school?...religious ideals?...religious group meetings?...the liberlas are gradually pushing this out in the name gay pride...and plastic bag banning...


Kabuki Joe

If students want to pray in school then that is fine but the school itself shouldn't organize prayer. Same with meetings. If students want to form a club or something and it follows the rules of the school clubs then that is fine with me, but the school shouldn't endorse the club's religious tones. Public schools are not religious schools. You can discuss religion if the class the students are in has that as a topic but other than that they aren't there to learn about god.

[Calypso Jones]

WE are interested in our freedom to live our lives without someone else telling us what products we can and cannot use. It was enviro-leftists that had kitty fits over the use of Paper grocery bags and forced us all to use the inferior and environmentally UNFriendly plastic bags. NOW you want to do it AGAIN. And you have no clue as to long term/short term effects. But By God you are going to make us all bow too your superior knowledge and caring.

[Kizzume]

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but if you are then I'm not saying you have to carry your groceries in your arms. There are other bags that you can easily use that are better and more environmentally friendly.

It doesn't matter, you tried to claim it would be better for everyone, that it would HELP, and it doesn't. Banning plastic bags adds an inconvenience for people.

[Chloe]

WE are interested in our freedom to live our lives without someone else telling us what products we can and cannot use. It was enviro-leftists that had kitty fits over the use of Paper grocery bags and forced us all to use the inferior and environmentally UNFriendly plastic bags. NOW you want to do it AGAIN. And you have no clue as to long term/short term effects. But By God you are going to make us all bow too your superior knowledge and caring.

I'm not trying to argue I'm really not, but if you don't have a plastic bag at the store to use for fruit is that really a big deal to you when you can use a reusable bag that is biodegradable and wont end up in a landfill for centuries or in the mouth of a turtle or just floating in the ocean for a lifetime? I understand what you are saying that you don't want to be told what to do and not to do and all that, but how in good conscience can you defend a plastic bag?

[Kabuki Joe]

If students want to pray in school then that is fine but the school itself shouldn't organize prayer. Same with meetings. If students want to form a club or something and it follows the rules of the school clubs then that is fine with me, but the school shouldn't endorse the club's religious tones. Public schools are not religious schools. You can discuss religion if the class the students are in has that as a topic but other than that they aren't there to learn about god.


...oh, but they are there to learn about gay pride...


Kabuki Joe

[Chloe]

It doesn't matter, you tried to claim it would be better for everyone, that it would HELP, and it doesn't. Banning plastic bags adds an inconvenience for people.

There are a lot of inconveniences. A red light can be an inconvenience. But if you run the red light it can kill someone, just like if you throw a plastic bag away it could possibly kill something too in 1 month or 40 years depending on where the bag goes. It will last longer than both of us. Life will never be 100% convenient, but we can certainly make it safer and cleaner.

[Conley]

WE are interested in our freedom to live our lives without someone else telling us what products we can and cannot use. It was enviro-leftists that had kitty fits over the use of Paper grocery bags and forced us all to use the inferior and environmentally UNFriendly plastic bags. NOW you want to do it AGAIN. And you have no clue as to long term/short term effects. But By God you are going to make us all bow too your superior knowledge and caring.

I must have missed the paper bag ban where everyone was forced to use "inferior and environmentally unfriendly plastic bags".

I've always had the choice for paper even when living in liberal areas.

[Chloe]

...oh, but they are there to learn about gay pride...


Kabuki Joe

In most cases when that topic comes up it teaches students about acceptance and being kind to others. A gay person is not a lesser person and in many cases gays are singled out in schools where students do not see it as a normal thing. So if a school decides to educate students on being good people and treating people that are different than you as equals then that makes more sense than teaching about genesis in biology class

[Calypso Jones]

Do you have the option of paper now? I NEVER do. The POINT IS i have to keep explaining is the Meddlesomeness of leftist do gooders who want to force everyone to do as they think best and they don't even have a well thought out plan. If there had been some thought, perhaps someone would have realized how this was going to impact the environment. now we're on to the next solution..and after this one there will be another one and another and another.

[Kizzume]

There are a lot of inconveniences. A red light can be an inconvenience. But if you run the red light it can kill someone, just like if you throw a plastic bag away it could possibly kill something too in 1 month or 40 years depending on where the bag goes. It will last longer than both of us. Life will never be 100% convenient, but we can certainly make it safer and cleaner.

Explain to me how banning plastic bags is beneficial to PEOPLE. I'm not talking about the environment, explain how it would help PEOPLE. If you can't, don't claim it would help people. An inconvenience isn't a help.

[Chloe]

Do you have the option of paper now? I NEVER do. The POINT IS i have to keep explaining is the Meddlesomeness of leftist do gooders who want to force everyone to do as they think best and they don't even have a well thought out plan. If there had been some thought, perhaps someone would have realized how this was going to impact the environment. now we're on to the next solution..and after this one there will be another one and another and another.

But so your only response then is to keep everything as is because of something from your history that makes you mad?

[Calypso Jones]

In most cases when that topic comes up it teaches students about acceptance and being kind to others. A gay person is not a lesser person and in many cases gays are singled out in schools where students do not see it as a normal thing. So if a school decides to educate students on being good people and treating people that are different than you as equals then that makes more sense than teaching about genesis in biology class

what is wrong with all you tolerant little left wing children that you are poorly treating children different from you? And you're bullying too i hear.

[Chloe]

Explain to me how banning plastic bags is beneficial to PEOPLE. I'm not talking about the environment, explain how it would help PEOPLE. If you can't, don't claim it would help people. An inconvenience isn't a help.

Here are a few example...

Cleaning up all those plastic bags that end up on beaches, rivers, forests, sidewalks, parks, oceans, streets, costs money. Not cleaning it up isn't an option since it would pile up, it could clog sewers and drains, and so on. So you'd save money on that clean up cost.

It takes oil to make bags. Oil that could theoretically be used elsewhere or not welled at all which would mean a reduction in burning fossil fuels and will help with air pollution.

Less space in landfills would be needed for the millions of tons of plastic bags that get dumped daily across the country.

[Kabuki Joe]

In most cases when that topic comes up it teaches students about acceptance and being kind to others. A gay person is not a lesser person and in many cases gays are singled out in schools where students do not see it as a normal thing. So if a school decides to educate students on being good people and treating people that are different than you as equals then that makes more sense than teaching about genesis in biology class

...but it's alright to do the same to religious kids for being religious?...damn, you are the prime example of a liberal sheep...


Kabuki Joe

[Kizzume]

Here are a few example...

Cleaning up all those plastic bags that end up on beaches, rivers, forests, sidewalks, parks, oceans, streets, costs money. Not cleaning it up isn't an option since it would pile up, it could clog sewers and drains, and so on. So you'd save money on that clean up cost.

It takes oil to make bags. Oil that could theoretically be used elsewhere or not welled at all which would mean a reduction in burning fossil fuels and will help with air pollution.

Less space in landfills would be needed for the millions of tons of plastic bags that get dumped daily across the country.

Your arguments are still pretty much environmental, which I agree with, but they're still environmental.

[Conley]

Do you have the option of paper now? I NEVER do. The POINT IS i have to keep explaining is the Meddlesomeness of leftist do gooders who want to force everyone to do as they think best and they don't even have a well thought out plan. If there had been some thought, perhaps someone would have realized how this was going to impact the environment. now we're on to the next solution..and after this one there will be another one and another and another.

Really? Wow, no I've always had the paper option. Are you in a rural area? I've only lived in cities, maybe that's part of it.

To your bigger point. This is how the world works. There are problems, solutions, then new problems and new solutions. Same thing with alternate energy and water sources...eventually alternative fuels will be cheaper than fossil, desalinated water will be cheaper than trying to get it from drying up reservoirs. Medicines too...they'll come on the market, maybe even be effective, and then occasionally get pulled because of the side effects. That's life, a series of problems and solutions. You have to accept that change happens whether you like it or not.

[Calypso Jones]

But so your only response then is to keep everything as is because of something from your history that makes you mad?

I am not against progress. I am against poorly thought out environmental idiocy that doesn't help but rather hinders. They should USE THEIR HEADS if at all possible...but then...look at Kudzu..introduced in the south as a ground cover and it became an extremely aggressive invasive species, killer bees negligently let out of a south american research facility, snake heads, certain beetles introduced into this country that have caused more problems than benefits, the starling. Science must be full of left wingers.

[Chloe]

what is wrong with all you tolerant little left wing children that you are poorly treating children different from you? And you're bullying too i hear.

Kids bully other kids it's not a political party that teaches that. I was bullied in high school because I would set up tables outside the quad area to talk about overfishing and cutting down trees. I didn't know or care if those people bullying me were liberals or not.

[Calypso Jones]

Really? Wow, no I've always had the paper option. Are you in a rural area? I've only lived in cities, maybe that's part of it.

To your bigger point. This is how the world works. There are problems, solutions, then new problems and new solutions. Same thing with alternate energy and water sources...eventually alternative fuels will be cheaper than fossil, desalinated water will be cheaper than trying to get it from drying up reservoirs. Medicines too...they'll come on the market, maybe even be effective, and then occasionally get pulled because of the side effects. That's life, a series of problems and solutions. You have to accept that change happens whether you like it or not.

I can accept change. What i cannot and will not accept is the limits to my being able to live my life as i desire because some plastic bag lover/re-usable bag lover determines that i know longer have an option.

[Calypso Jones]

Kids bully other kids it's not a political party that teaches that. I was bullied in high school because I would set up tables outside the quad area to talk about overfishing and cutting down trees. I ' know or care if those people bullying me were liberals or not.

Your teachers promote leftist thinking. Your text books are written with that point of view. Everything you see on television and movies and radio is leftist. You are your own worst enemies.

[Chloe]

I can accept change. What i cannot and will not accept is the limits to my being able to live my life as i desire because some plastic bag lover/re-usable bag lover determines that i know longer have an option.

Isn't that a pretty selfish way of looking at it though? You know they aren't good for the environment so why would you want that option anyway?

[Peter1469]

Yes they can be reused but for how long will someone reuse a plastic bag that does not biodegrade? You certainly won't keep all of those plastic bags from the grocery store with you for the rest of your life and gift them to your family. You'll throw some away after you clean up your house or you'll lose them somewhere along the way if you ever move homes. Then what? Where did those bags go? It happens every single day across the globe. With regards to shoppers if it having to bring canvas or other reusable bags from home or spending 50 cents buying five paper bags makes someones life "miserable" then they have other issues they need to work out. You'd spend more on gum than you'd spend on those paper bags.

Also Toronto made a bad mistake doing what they did. They took a step back in my opinion in favor of big business.


The Giant that I go to has recycle bins for the plastic bags. I don't know what they actually do with it.....

[Chloe]

The Giant that I go to has recycle bins for the plastic bags. I don't know what they actually do with it.....

You should ask one day out of curiosity. I've asked a place once and to my surprise they said they bring it to the dump.

[Mister D]

The Giant that I go to has recycle bins for the plastic bags. I don't know what they actually do with it.....

Shoprite by me has the same thing outrside the front doors.

[Chloe]

This is kindof crazy btw. I was not expecting this many responses to this topic. I thought i'd maybe get 20 comments or something like that.

[Conley]

The Giant that I go to has recycle bins for the plastic bags. I don't know what they actually do with it.....

Yep, they have to be clean too. I reuse them when I can, but they get holes in them quickly...then I recycle them after that.

[Chloe]

...but it's alright to do the same to religious kids for being religious?...damn, you are the prime example of a liberal sheep...


Kabuki Joe

Gay people get treated far worse in school than religious people do.

[nic34]

This is kindof crazy btw. I was not expecting this many responses to this topic. I thought i'd maybe get 20 comments or something like that.

You obvioulsy hit on a "personal freedom" funny bone.

Most folks have never had to live in a 3rd world slum.

[Conley]

Gay people get treated far worse in school than religious people do.

Really depends I think. I'm sure it's not a picnic for some muslim kids. Catholicism gets bashed constantly but that gets a pass for some reason (not that it should)...a jewish kid with a yamaka? All targets unfortunately....kids will be kids, gotta raise em up right

[Chloe]

Really depends I think. I'm sure it's not a picnic for some muslim kids. Catholicism gets bashed constantly but that gets a pass for some reason (not that it should)...a jewish kid with a yamaka? All targets unfortunately....kids will be kids, gotta raise em up right

That's true