PDA

View Full Version : Democrats dig in to prevent any spending reductions in fiscal-cliff talks



Pages : [1] 2

pjohns
11-29-2012, 01:43 AM
It is beginning to look more and more like the "balanced approach" touted by President Obama, as regarding our achieving fiscal stability, essentially means that Republicans should acquiesce to tax hikes, whereas Democrats should assiduously protect entitlements from any possible decreases in funding.

From The Washington Post:


White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters that Obama has already offered a plan to slice $340 billion from federal health programs, in part by charging wealthy seniors more for Medicare, and that he is open to additional proposals for health-care savings.

But top Democrats, including Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (Nev.) and Senate Majority Whip Richard J. Durbin (Ill.), have resisted changes to entitlement programs as part of the fiscal-cliff negotiations. With few signs of progress and barely four weeks remaining until more than $500 billion in automatic tax increases and spending cuts are set to take effect, a sense of gloom was descending over the Capitol.

Erskine Bowles, a former Democratic White House chief of staff who has returned to Washington this week to act as an informal envoy between Republicans and the White House, said he sees only a one in three chance of an agreement before the fiscal cliff hits in January — in part because of Democratic recalcitrance over entitlement savings.

Here is the link: ‘Fiscal cliff’ talks bogged down by dispute over cost of retirement programs - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/fiscal-cliff/obama-urges-public-to-pressure-congress-on-taxes/2012/11/28/25716a4c-397c-11e2-a263-f0ebffed2f15_story.html?hpid=z2)

patrickt
11-29-2012, 07:23 AM
We're dealing with people who insist the the trillions we've spent the last four years had only one problem. We didn't spend enough.

The goal is, as stated by the President, to redistribute income and eliminate income inequality.

Mainecoons
11-29-2012, 07:27 AM
Democrats would rather spend until the money runs out. Republicans should support them in this and make sure that when it happens, it is manifestly plain who is responsible.

Give them their "soak the rich" tax cut that would cover at absolute best 8 percent of the ObamaDeficit. When the opportunity for that demagoguery is gone and the deficits continue to soar, then what?

Peter1469
11-29-2012, 02:58 PM
Democrats would rather spend until the money runs out. Republicans should support them in this and make sure that when it happens, it is manifestly plain who is responsible.

Give them their "soak the rich" tax cut that would cover at absolute best 8 percent of the ObamaDeficit. When the opportunity for that demagoguery is gone and the deficits continue to soar, then what?

Considering our annual deficits the last several years have been well over $1T, I would say that we have already run out of money....

pjohns
12-01-2012, 08:39 PM
We're dealing with people who insist the the trillions we've spent the last four years had only one problem. We didn't spend enough.

You are exactly correct in that analysis.


The goal is, as stated by the President, to redistribute income and eliminate income inequality.

Correct again.

(In socialist countries, there is much more income equality; after all, almost everyone is poor there...)

Awryly
12-02-2012, 11:11 PM
It is beginning to look more and more like the "balanced approach" touted by President Obama, as regarding our achieving fiscal stability, essentially means that Republicans should acquiesce to tax hikes, whereas Democrats should assiduously protect entitlements from any possible decreases in funding.

From The Washington Post:



Here is the link: ‘Fiscal cliff’ talks bogged down by dispute over cost of retirement programs - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/fiscal-cliff/obama-urges-public-to-pressure-congress-on-taxes/2012/11/28/25716a4c-397c-11e2-a263-f0ebffed2f15_story.html?hpid=z2)

Helloooooooooooooooo? What is this if not a spending cut?


Speaking from the Pentagon, Obama said the plan is "smart, strategic" and sets priorities."I just want to say that this effort reflects the guidance I gave throughout this process," Obama said. "Yes, the tide of war is receding. But the question that this strategy answers is what kind of military will we need after the long wars of the last decade are over. And today, we're moving forward, from a position of strength."
The new military strategy includes $487 billion in cuts over the next decade. An additional $500 billion in cuts could be coming if Congress follows through on plans for deeper reductions. The announcement comes weeks after the U.S. officially ended the Iraq War and after a decade of increased defense spending in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.
Obama said that the military will indeed be leaner, but the U.S. will maintain a budget that is roughly larger than the next 10 countries' military budgets combined.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/01/obama-defense-cuts/1#.ULwmOuSV25w

patrickt
12-03-2012, 07:14 AM
Democrats will not only not make spending cuts but President Obama just announce $1,000,000,000,000 in new spending to save the poor folks who decided to use students loans to go to college. Studies in Surf Science and Brewery Science don't seem to be paying off. It hasn't helped that the government has inflated the cost of going to college.

So, not only are spending cuts a fantasy but there is no intention to cut the deficit. I know it's shocking but the Democrat plan is to borrow more, spend more, and tax more. Like a baby who has pooped his diapers, someone else will clean it up for them.

Peter1469
12-03-2012, 08:40 AM
No. Our government is hell bent on spending us into insolvency.

Mainecoons
12-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Maybe that is the only way to tame D.C. Let it go broke. HELP it go broke.

pjohns
12-03-2012, 01:26 PM
Helloooooooooooooooo? What is this if not a spending cut?



http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/01/obama-defense-cuts/1#.ULwmOuSV25w

It is not a cut in entitlements; which is exactly what I specified in the OP...

Cigar
12-03-2012, 01:28 PM
Elections have Consequences ... stop your Bitching.

Peter1469
12-03-2012, 01:44 PM
Right, the American people deserve to suffer total economic collapse.

Cigar
12-03-2012, 01:45 PM
Right, the American people deserve to suffer total economic collapse.



That cheer leading for American failure has been an excellent political tactic.

Country First or Party?

nic34
12-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Yes, in fact, I AM ENTITLED to what I have paid for.

Peter1469
12-03-2012, 02:02 PM
That cheer leading for American failure has been an excellent political tactic.

Country First or Party?

Elections have consequences. I am only telling you what the results of the Regime's polices will be. I understand that you and your ilk don't understand economics. Romney would also have driven us over the cliff.

Awryly
12-03-2012, 08:25 PM
Elections have consequences. I am only telling you what the results of the Regime's polices will be. I understand that you and your ilk don't understand economics. Romney would also have driven us over the cliff.

All hail to Ron Paul, eh?

ptif219
12-03-2012, 10:41 PM
Don't forget the taxes in Obamacare

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/03/us-usa-tax-irs-idUSBRE8B21HA20121203

Captain Obvious
12-03-2012, 10:42 PM
Don't forget the taxes in Obamacare

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/03/us-usa-tax-irs-idUSBRE8B21HA20121203

But they're not taxes.

Or are they? I forgot already.

ptif219
12-03-2012, 10:52 PM
But they're not taxes.

Or are they? I forgot already.

Read the link. This is on capital gains for those that earn more than $200,000 to pay for Obamacare

Peter1469
12-04-2012, 07:31 AM
All costs of Obamacare are taxes- SCOTUS told us so.

Awryly
12-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Here's the recipe for how to lose in the 2014 mid-terms.


A majority of Americans say that if the country goes over the fiscal cliff on Dec. 31, congressional Republicans should bear the brunt of the blame, according to a new Washington Post-Pew Research Center poll (http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2012/12/04/National-Politics/Polling/release_181.xml), the latest sign that the GOP faces a perilous path on the issue between now and the end of the year.

While 53 percent of those surveyed say the GOP would (and should) lose the fiscal cliff blame game, just 27 percent say President Obama would be deserving of more of the blame. Roughly one in 10 (12 percent) volunteer that both sides would be equally to blame.


Barrel over a, anyone?

GrumpyDog
12-04-2012, 07:34 PM
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/04062007/1183584/Moscow_wa.jpg

Democrats are determined this time.

Peter1469
12-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Here's the recipe for how to lose in the 2014 mid-terms.



Barrel over a, anyone?

Good luck with your plans to destroy the economy.

Awryly
12-04-2012, 08:03 PM
Good luck with your plans to destroy the economy.

According to the best sources available, and in American opinion, it is your plan.

Peter1469
12-04-2012, 08:09 PM
It isn't my plan Hobbit. Good luck with opening night.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 09:41 AM
Strap on your 'chutes. Looks as though you're goin' over.

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/77500/Barack-Obama-Mouse-Jumping-with-a-Parachute---77884.jpg

Awryly
12-23-2012, 09:59 AM
And in case you've forgotten, or never knew what this means, here's some reading:


What are the components of the fiscal cliff?

The following set of revenue and spending measures are set to expire or take effect at year's end, representing an acute fiscal consolidation that could be further intensified by a potential showdown over the debt ceiling.
Revenue Increases

2001/2003/2010 Tax Cuts & AMT Patch. This series of legislation, often referred to collectively as the "Bush tax cuts," will expire on December 31, 2012, raising all income tax rates (top will go from 35 to 39.6 percent), as well as rates on estate and capital (http://www.cfr.org/economics/fiscal-cliff/p28757#) gains taxes. The alternative minimum tax (AMT) will also automatically apply to millions more citizens.
Payroll Tax Cut. The Social Security payroll tax holiday will expire December 31, raising the rate from 4.2 to 6.2 percent.
Other Provisions. Several other policies such as the Research and Experimentation tax credit, many of which are typically enacted retroactively, are due to sunset at years' end.
Affordable Care Act Taxes. Some provisions in the Obama health-care legislation, including increased tax rates on high-income earners, are set to take effect in January 2013.
Spending Cuts

Budget Control Act. The automatic spending cuts or sequester legislated by the Budget Control Act of 2011 will hit January 2. Half of the scheduled annual cuts ($109 billion/year from 2013-2021) will come directly from the national defense (http://www.cfr.org/united-states/defense-spending-deficit-debate/p26442) budget, half from non-defense. However, some 70 percent of mandatory spending will be exempt.
Extended Unemployment Benefits. The eligibility to begin receiving federal unemployment benefits, last extended in February, will expire at year's end.
Medicare "Doc Fix." The rates at which Medicare pays physicians will decrease nearly 30 percent on December 31.


http://www.cfr.org/economics/fiscal-cliff/p28757

Of course, that's just the start.

Confidence will evaporate. Your stock and bond markets will take dives too. Consumption will constrict and you'll lose jobs. The housing market will take another beating just when it was looking to come right. The crime rate will rocket. Your credit ratings will be at risk. And your cost of borrowing will increase.

And, of course, you will go back into recession.

And you'll all moan that it was someone else's fault.

ptif219
12-23-2012, 11:05 AM
The teaparty was re-elected so they have a mandate. How do you like that. Mandate is a BS way of saying I will not compromise. Obama and Reid show that their going home or on vacation for Christmas is more important than a solution to the fiscal cliff

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 04:08 PM
And in case you've forgotten, or never knew what this means, here's some reading:



http://www.cfr.org/economics/fiscal-cliff/p28757

Of course, that's just the start.

Confidence will evaporate. Your stock and bond markets will take dives too. Consumption will constrict and you'll lose jobs. The housing market will take another beating just when it was looking to come right. The crime rate will rocket. Your credit ratings will be at risk. And your cost of borrowing will increase.

And, of course, you will go back into recession.

And you'll all moan that it was someone else's fault.

None of this amounts to a true fiscal cliff. The real problem is spending, and all of this does not cut a cent of spending. I cuts a $1.3T deficit into a $1T deficit. That is not a cut in spending, but rather projected spending. We will still be $1T in the whole year after year.

Stop.

Now consider what happens with a currency collapse.

patrickt
12-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Just like the Great Depression, we have a socialist in charge of the administration and he's committed to keep the economy as deep in the dump as he can for as long as he can. He would want to be accused of letting a crisis he and his fellow socialists created go to waste.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 05:51 PM
None of this amounts to a true fiscal cliff. The real problem is spending, and all of this does not cut a cent of spending. I cuts a $1.3T deficit into a $1T deficit. That is not a cut in spending, but rather projected spending. We will still be $1T in the whole year after year.


Stop.

Now consider what happens with a currency collapse.


You've lost me.

Why are the "Spending cuts" not spending cuts?


Spending Cuts

Budget Control Act. The automatic spending cuts or sequester legislated by the Budget Control Act of 2011 will hit January 2. Half of the scheduled annual cuts ($109 billion/year from 2013-2021) will come directly from thenational defense (http://www.cfr.org/united-states/defense-spending-deficit-debate/p26442) budget, half from non-defense. However, some 70 percent of mandatory spending will be exempt.
Extended Unemployment Benefits. The eligibility to begin receiving federal unemployment benefits, last extended in February, will expire at year's end.
Medicare "Doc Fix." The rates at which Medicare pays physicians will decrease nearly 30 percent on December 31.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Just like the Great Depression, we have a socialist in charge of the administration and he's committed to keep the economy as deep in the dump as he can for as long as he can. He would want to be accused of letting a crisis he and his fellow socialists created go to waste.

You don't have the foggiest idea about what has happened, what is happening, or what is ever likely to happen. Do you?

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 06:02 PM
You've lost me.

Why are the "Spending cuts" not spending cuts?

They are cuts in projected spending increases.

The US has been spending ~$1.3T per year over tax revenues.

Now the US is going to "cut" to $1T per year over tax revenues.

That is not a cut. That is spending less than you planed, but still spending $1T over tax revenues.

A cut would be spending less than tax revenues.

I am speaking of total numbers. You are correct that there are cuts in programs, but that is meaningless when overspending is threatening to kill the economy and currency.

Bigred1cav
12-23-2012, 06:04 PM
Considering our annual deficits the last several years have been well over $1T, I would say that we have already run out of money....
They should dig in. Ryan's insane plan was defeated Nov 6. Why do the losers of the Presidential election think they have a mandate to force the defeated plan on America?

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 06:13 PM
They should dig in. Ryan's insane plan was defeated Nov 6. Why do the losers of the Presidential election think they have a mandate to force the defeated plan on America?

Welcome to tPF Red!

At this point, I am not sure that it matters what Congress does. We cannot pay off our official or unofficial debt. Obama's plan is going over the cliff at 200mph. Ryan's plan is going over at 100mph.

At this point, punch it. Let's have as much fun as possible.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 06:21 PM
They are cuts in projected spending increases.

The US has been spending ~$1.3T per year over tax revenues.

Now the US is going to "cut" to $1T per year over tax revenues.

That is not a cut. That is spending less than you planed, but still spending $1T over tax revenues.

A cut would be spending less than tax revenues.

I am speaking of total numbers. You are correct that there are cuts in programs, but that is meaningless when overspending is threatening to kill the economy and currency.

How is " a cut in projected spending increase" not a cut? You've just said it is.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 06:23 PM
They should dig in. Ryan's insane plan was defeated Nov 6. Why do the losers of the Presidential election think they have a mandate to force the defeated plan on America?

Especially when Americans are voting in droves against Republican handling of the negotiations to sort a budget plan.

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 06:34 PM
How is " a cut in projected spending increase" not a cut? You've just said it is.

You are in charge of your household expenses.

In 2010 you said that you were going to allocate 5% of your income for vacation in 2011 and 2012. In 2011 you lose your job. So you eliminate the 5% of your budget for vacation in 2012.

You have not cut your spending by 5%. You have cut projected spending by 5%.

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 06:36 PM
And thus you see how the Obama regime states that they are cutting spending by $1T. That is largely from not maintaining the occupation of Iraq (which ended last year) and Afghanistan (which is pretty much over).

Statistics lie my Kiwi friend. Most people are too dim to see it.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 06:38 PM
You are in charge of your household expenses.

In 2010 you said that you were going to allocate 5% of your income for vacation in 2011 and 2012. In 2011 you lose your job. So you eliminate the 5% of your budget for vacation in 2012.

You have not cut your spending by 5%. You have cut projected spending by 5%.

So they're cuts, are they? Now I get it.
:detective::detective::hello:

Awryly
12-23-2012, 06:41 PM
So they're cuts, are they? Now I get it.
:detective::detective::hello:


All you are arguing is that the cuts are made in the future. Any cuts can only be made in the future. Do you want cuts to stuff that's already been spent?

Peter1469
12-23-2012, 06:45 PM
So they're cuts, are they? Now I get it.
:detective::detective::hello:

You math kills economies

You think that perceptual increases in base line spending is sustainable? For how long?

Try it with you household budget. Increase your spending by 5% per year even if your income goes down. Report back!

Awryly
12-23-2012, 07:14 PM
You math kills economies

You think that perceptual increases in base line spending is sustainable? For how long?

Try it with you household budget. Increase your spending by 5% per year even if your income goes down. Report back!

OK. We seem to have got past the "cuts" thing. All you seem to want now are bigger cuts.

And, let me guess, you want the bigger cuts to be made to expenditure that does not affect the wealthy?

ptif219
12-23-2012, 07:17 PM
All you are arguing is that the cuts are made in the future. Any cuts can only be made in the future. Do you want cuts to stuff that's already been spent?

Make a budget and cut spending. Obama refuses to do either less increases is not a cut

Awryly
12-23-2012, 07:22 PM
Make a budget and cut spending. Obama refuses to do either less increases is not a cut

I can understand why Americans know nothing about other countries. But it is incomprehensible that there are so many Americans who know nothing about their own.


The $4 trillion, 10-year plan includes the commitment to $1.1 trillion in spending cuts that Mr. Obama and Congress have already agreed to, he added, as well as additional spending cuts that include $340 billion insavings (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/us/politics/obama-tells-labor-leaders-hell-stand-tough-in-budget-talks.html?_r=0#) from Medicare (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/medicare/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and Medicaid (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/health/diseasesconditionsandhealthtopics/medicaid/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier). And, Mr. Carney said, Mr. Obama “insists as the essence of balance that revenue be included — $1.6 trillion in revenue.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/us/politics/obama-tells-labor-leaders-hell-stand-tough-in-budget-talks.html?_r=0

It's a tribute to their brain-washing media and idiotic ideologies.

roadmaster
12-23-2012, 07:33 PM
Our country can build schools and give other countries money on our dime but at like we don't pay enough. I don't remember when the last time I didn't have to pay Federal taxes.

Awryly
12-23-2012, 07:35 PM
Our country can build schools and give other countries money on our dime but at like we don't pay enough. I don't remember when the last time I didn't have to pay Federal taxes.


Hey, stop giving billions to Israel then.

ptif219
12-23-2012, 09:59 PM
I can understand why Americans know nothing about other countries. But it is incomprehensible that there are so many Americans who know nothing about their own.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/us/politics/obama-tells-labor-leaders-hell-stand-tough-in-budget-talks.html?_r=0

It's a tribute to their brain-washing media and idiotic ideologies.

They are not cuts. They are not allowing the base line increases. You don't understand that with no budget passed under Obama there is a budget increase built in. The cuts Obama proposes are not to spend less but not increase what the base line calls for. the budget will still increase.

The only real cuts Obama will approve will be to the military and national security

ptif219
12-23-2012, 10:08 PM
Hey, stop giving billions to Israel then.

Maybe we should not give 20 F-16's to Egypt

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2968006/posts

Awryly
12-23-2012, 11:26 PM
Maybe we should not give 20 F-16's to Egypt

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2968006/posts

Egypt has Islamists, you know. Who like F-16s.

And you need to play nice with the Egyptians to stop them from attacking Israel.

With their F-16s.

GrumpyDog
12-24-2012, 04:31 AM
Well, when the Democrats saw how the Republicans were burying themselve with manure, the natural reaction was, hey, lets see if we can help them do it faster.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 04:55 AM
OK. We seem to have got past the "cuts" thing. All you seem to want now are bigger cuts.

And, let me guess, you want the bigger cuts to be made to expenditure that does not affect the wealthy?

I don't want to spend more money than we take in tax revenues. Right now we are spending ~$1.3T more than tax revenues.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 04:57 AM
Egypt has Islamists, you know. Who like F-16s.

And you need to play nice with the Egyptians to stop them from attacking Israel.

With their F-16s.


Most military equipment used by Egypt today is American. All of this stuff needs maintenance and parts. If they attack Israel they will run out of those parts.....

patrickt
12-24-2012, 07:59 AM
Most military equipment used by Egypt today is American. All of this stuff needs maintenance and parts. If they attack Israel they will run out of those parts.....

Are you assuming that President Obama won't give Israel the needed parts courtesy of the hated American taxpayers?

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 09:54 AM
Are you assuming that President Obama won't give Israel the needed parts courtesy of the hated American taxpayers?

Egypt?

ptif219
12-24-2012, 11:01 AM
Egypt has Islamists, you know. Who like F-16s.

And you need to play nice with the Egyptians to stop them from attacking Israel.

With their F-16s.



If that is true then we should not give them any planes unless they agree to a new peace treaty with Israel

Awryly
12-24-2012, 05:53 PM
I don't want to spend more money than we take in tax revenues. Right now we are spending ~$1.3T more than tax revenues.

C'mon. Say it. Don't be coy. The poor should pay.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 05:57 PM
If that is true then we should not give them any planes unless they agree to a new peace treaty with Israel

Egypt is cosying up to Russia and Iran.

The US is still hoping their 2 billion to Egypt will keep things "stable". Meaning to America's liking.

I suspect there will be higher bidders. And the US will have to pay a bunch more.

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 06:22 PM
Egypt has Islamists, you know. Who like F-16s.

And you need to play nice with the Egyptians to stop them from attacking Israel.

With their F-16s.

It is OK becaseu we sell Israel the F15, you know the plane that has never been shot down in combat???

So it really will not be a fair fight.

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 06:26 PM
C'mon. Say it. Don't be coy. The poor should pay.

I have a better Idea, why don't we reduce the taxes on everyone???

When we do that the revenue always goes unp and the government has more money to spend.

Jobs are created, and people make more money and then of course they do have to pay mroe in taxes.

Not to worry though, with the average income in your country, it will be a long time before people making that little would ahve to pay taxes.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 06:45 PM
I have a better Idea, why don't we reduce the taxes on everyone???

When we do that the revenue always goes unp and the government has more money to spend.

Jobs are created, and people make more money and then of course they do have to pay mroe in taxes.

Not to worry though, with the average income in your country, it will be a long time before people making that little would ahve to pay taxes.


Let me get this right. If you tax people less, the government gets more in tax revenue?

How does that work?

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 07:18 PM
Let me get this right. If you tax people less, the government gets more in tax revenue?

How does that work?

economic growth!!!!

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/downchart_gr.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand&units=k&fy=fy11&chart=F0-total&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title&state=US&color=c&local=s

You will not that the Bush taxcuts were passed late in 2002 and made retro active????

If it was not for that housing collapse (created by a conpassionate plan to let poor people buy homes, instead of rent)

Awryly
12-24-2012, 08:12 PM
economic growth!!!!

http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/downchart_gr.php?year=2000_2010&view=1&expand&units=k&fy=fy11&chart=F0-total&bar=0&stack=1&size=l&title&state=US&color=c&local=s

You will not that the Bush taxcuts were passed late in 2002 and made retro active????

If it was not for that housing collapse (created by a conpassionate plan to let poor people buy homes, instead of rent)


Oh, yeah. The "trickle down effect" that has been disproven time and again. Or the business investment mirage that has big business already holding $2 trillion in uninvested money.

And what, pray tell, is "compassionate" about deliberately selling people mortgages on property they can't afford and that you then expect you will happily be able to repossess?

Stick to Merry Christmas. You're much better at that.

ptif219
12-24-2012, 08:52 PM
Egypt is cosying up to Russia and Iran.

The US is still hoping their 2 billion to Egypt will keep things "stable". Meaning to America's liking.

I suspect there will be higher bidders. And the US will have to pay a bunch more.

No, Obama is backing the Muslim brotherhood he supported to take over Egypt. Obama supports Islamist terrorist groups.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 08:56 PM
No, Obama is backing the Muslim brotherhood he supported to take over Egypt. Obama supports Islamist terrorist groups.

I expect Islamist groups have their eye on you.

If I were you, I'd carry a couple or three of AR 15s wherever I go.

You know how they jam.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 10:10 PM
C'mon. Say it. Don't be coy. The poor should pay.

Everyone is going to pay one way or the other. The alternative is an unmanaged deleveraging of our debt. That will hurt the poor much, much worse than a managed deleveraging of our debt.

You cannot make up that $1.3T per yr on the backs of the rich. It is not possible.

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 10:20 PM
Oh, yeah. The "trickle down effect" that has been disproven time and again. Or the business investment mirage that has big business already holding $2 trillion in uninvested money.

And what, pray tell, is "compassionate" about deliberately selling people mortgages on property they can't afford and that you then expect you will happily be able to repossess?

Stick to Merry Christmas. You're much better at that.

The chart that you just looked at shows actual revanue of the treasury for more than a decade. Reagan was the first real tax cutter. and the term trickle down was coined under his administration. And he started the longest period of economic growth in US history.

You are exactly right. telling people that home ownership was the way to prosperity, and selling them a home that they could not afford is cruel. The ecuity in housing act was passed by President Carter, during the Clinton Administration they gave it teeth and actually forced banks to carry about 13% of their mortgage protfolio's in low inoce housing.

GWB actually asked for the audit of fannie mae and freddie mac (the largest mortgage holding banks 7 times during his presidency. he was told by Democrats Barney Franks, Christopher Dodd, and the congressional black cacus, that everything was fine and that he was a racist for questing these policies. later it was detirmined that Dodd was recieveing a 1% mortgage on all of his properties, and Franks was reciving the majority of his funds from Fannie Freddie and the mortgage industry.

The democrats refuse to change these policies and they are still in place today.

As for trickle down, even president Clinton used this policy, he raised taxes on the rich, turned out to be on those making 45K and over, but he cut capital gains taxes by almost 30% and at that time very few but the rich could afford to invest.

And yes there are plenty of forclosures to be bought today. The Sub prime mortgage market kept loaning to people and selling the current mortgage as a quality investment. people ended up owing 3 or 4 times what their home was worth.

I actually am in the business of buying some of these homes, and renovating them. becasue of some of the laws, I can not sell it back to the family for 5 years. so I rent it to them and they build a dowm payment through there rent. Then I plan on selling them the home with all the improvemnts for market value? on what we call land contract with a 5 year pay off. most of them will owe about half of what they did when they lost their home, it will have new energy efficient insulation, furnaces, windows, and hopefully they can make a fresh start.

plus I make money in the first place.
is
The 2 trillion is actually about 1.2 trillion and it is mostly money that was made overseas, the reason that corporations do not invest this money in the US is simple, the US government want 35% of this money for brining it back into the USA, so corporations either sit on it or invest it over seas.

You seem to be getting your economic news from MSNBC, they are a propaganda organization, not really interested in news. CNN is not much better.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 10:39 PM
JFK also lowered taxes and increased government revenues.

If the economy grows, you increase the number of tax payers. You get more tax revenue from a broader tax base than a narrow tax base.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 10:41 PM
Everyone is going to pay one way or the other. The alternative is an unmanaged deleveraging of our debt. That will hurt the poor much, much worse than a managed deleveraging of our debt.

You cannot make up that $1.3T per yr on the backs of the rich. It is not possible.


All you have said is that you need to organise things so you can repay a $17 trillion dollar debt by reducing spending.

Obama wants to reduce spending. It's in his plan.

Bit I bet you don't like it..

Awryly
12-24-2012, 10:43 PM
JFK also lowered taxes and increased government revenues.

If the economy grows, you increase the number of tax payers. You get more tax revenue from a broader tax base than a narrow tax base.

The economy is already growing.

And will continue to unless you fall off your cliff.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 10:46 PM
The chart that you just looked at shows actual revanue of the treasury for more than a decade. Reagan was the first real tax cutter. and the term trickle down was coined under his administration. And he started the longest period of economic growth in US history.

You are exactly right. telling people that home ownership was the way to prosperity, and selling them a home that they could not afford is cruel. The ecuity in housing act was passed by President Carter, during the Clinton Administration they gave it teeth and actually forced banks to carry about 13% of their mortgage protfolio's in low inoce housing.

GWB actually asked for the audit of fannie mae and freddie mac (the largest mortgage holding banks 7 times during his presidency. he was told by Democrats Barney Franks, Christopher Dodd, and the congressional black cacus, that everything was fine and that he was a racist for questing these policies. later it was detirmined that Dodd was recieveing a 1% mortgage on all of his properties, and Franks was reciving the majority of his funds from Fannie Freddie and the mortgage industry.

The democrats refuse to change these policies and they are still in place today.

As for trickle down, even president Clinton used this policy, he raised taxes on the rich, turned out to be on those making 45K and over, but he cut capital gains taxes by almost 30% and at that time very few but the rich could afford to invest.

And yes there are plenty of forclosures to be bought today. The Sub prime mortgage market kept loaning to people and selling the current mortgage as a quality investment. people ended up owing 3 or 4 times what their home was worth.

I actually am in the business of buying some of these homes, and renovating them. becasue of some of the laws, I can not sell it back to the family for 5 years. so I rent it to them and they build a dowm payment through there rent. Then I plan on selling them the home with all the improvemnts for market value? on what we call land contract with a 5 year pay off. most of them will owe about half of what they did when they lost their home, it will have new energy efficient insulation, furnaces, windows, and hopefully they can make a fresh start.

plus I make money in the first place.
is
The 2 trillion is actually about 1.2 trillion and it is mostly money that was made overseas, the reason that corporations do not invest this money in the US is simple, the US government want 35% of this money for brining it back into the USA, so corporations either sit on it or invest it over seas.

You seem to be getting your economic news from MSNBC, they are a propaganda organization, not really interested in news. CNN is not much better.

Wot? Reagan left a massive deficit because he could find the dosh to pay for his tax cuts.

You seem to be getting your information from FoxNews.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 10:54 PM
All you have said is that you need to organise things so you can repay a $17 trillion dollar debt by reducing spending.

Obama wants to reduce spending. It's in his plan.

Bit I bet you don't like it..

Obama has said that he wants to spend $1T over tax revenues per year for the foreseeable future. That is not a cut. That is spending $1T more than you make per year. A cut would be spending less than you take in.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 11:00 PM
Obama has said that he wants to spend $1T over tax revenues per year for the foreseeable future. That is not a cut. That is spending $1T more than you make per year. A cut would be spending less than you take in.


Maybe he's thinking of spending money on your dilapidated roads and other infrastructure so that stuff that makes money move faster?

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 11:10 PM
All you have said is that you need to organise things so you can repay a $17 trillion dollar debt by reducing spending.

Obama wants to reduce spending. It's in his plan.

Bit I bet you don't like it..

?????????????????????? Obama has no plans to reduce spending. 1/3 of the 220+ year debt belongs to him in only 4 years.

He has a plan to tax the rich and the money he will raise?????? if and on if the wealthy keep investing and do not shelter their money. will run the government fo 8 days????

You really should stick to your own country as you are really mis informend when it comes to ours?

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 11:16 PM
Maybe he's thinking of spending money on your dilapidated roads and other infrastructure so that stuff that makes money can move faster?

Sounds like you might want to work on that yourselves????

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120215113138AAjp8Lz

Average to poor, At least you have a 30 year plan to improve it, my hats off to you for that. Obama has not even passed a budget in his 4 years?? Much less any meaningful plan for infastructure improvement.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 11:23 PM
Sounds like you might want to work on that yourselves????

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120215113138AAjp8Lz

Average to poor, At least you have a 30 year plan to improve it, my hats off to you for that. Obama has not even passed a budget in his 4 years?? Much less any meaningful plan for infastructure improvement.

Don't forget to strap on your chute.

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/63500/John-Cleese-Parachuting-With-a-Banana---63640.jpg

zelmo1234
12-24-2012, 11:33 PM
I would not worry about me AW. I will be OK even if the dollar totally colapses. I have planned for just such an event. Our country is hooked on free stuff and Obama played the part of Santa Clause during the election. weather our politicians wake up and act like big boys and girls before it gets to late or not remains to be seen??

But the family just made it home..... So Merry Christmas my friend. I will talk to you soon.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 11:40 PM
I would not worry about me AW. I will be OK even if the dollar totally colapses. I have planned for just such an event. Our country is hooked on free stuff and Obama played the part of Santa Clause during the election. weather our politicians wake up and act like big boys and girls before it gets to late or not remains to be seen??

But the family just made it home..... So Merry Christmas my friend. I will talk to you soon.


Ah, but there will be other people armed with AR 15s looking for a merry Xmas too.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 11:44 PM
Maybe he's thinking of spending money on your dilapidated roads and other infrastructure so that stuff that makes money move faster?

In America, roads are maintained and built via the gas tax.

Awryly
12-24-2012, 11:48 PM
In America, roads are maintained and built via the gas tax.


Guess what? Our petrol tax does the same thing.

But with better effect, from what I hear.

Peter1469
12-24-2012, 11:57 PM
Guess what? Our petrol tax does the same thing.

But with better effect, from what I hear.

Oh sure. You have less roads.

Awryly
12-25-2012, 12:05 AM
Oh sure. You have less roads.


Don't be droll. Of course we have. We are a smaller country.

Peter1469
12-25-2012, 04:11 AM
Right.

ptif219
12-25-2012, 11:03 AM
I expect Islamist groups have their eye on you.

If I were you, I'd carry a couple or three of AR 15s wherever I go.

You know how they jam.

I fear no one. I do carry a concealed weapon when not in My big truck

ptif219
12-25-2012, 11:04 AM
All you have said is that you need to organise things so you can repay a $17 trillion dollar debt by reducing spending.

Obama wants to reduce spending. It's in his plan.

Bit I bet you don't like it..

Increase of 55% is not what you claim


http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/spending-increase-55-percent-under-obamas-plan_691133.html

ptif219
12-25-2012, 11:05 AM
The economy is already growing.

And will continue to unless you fall off your cliff.

The growth you claim is almost stagnant.

ptif219
12-25-2012, 11:06 AM
Wot? Reagan left a massive deficit because he could find the dosh to pay for his tax cuts.

You seem to be getting your information from FoxNews.

The debt as because democrats lied and did not cut spending as they promised.

ptif219
12-25-2012, 11:11 AM
Don't be droll. Of course we have. We are a smaller country.

Your fuel is also almost 3 times the price it is here thanks to being overtaxed

Peter1469
12-25-2012, 12:44 PM
Your fuel is also almost 3 times the price it is here thanks to being overtaxed

And the drop in the value of the dollar.

Awryly
12-25-2012, 08:51 PM
And the drop in the value of the dollar.

Your dollar, yeah.

While you print paper as if trees are headed for extinction, and most other developed countries (and China, obviously) do the same, the NZ government stubbornly refuses to take monetary policy measures to devalue our dollar.

It is far too high. The official (government) position seems to be that it would have fiscal consequences they don't want.

My guess is that one of these is that it would deter investment. Just at a time when the government is trying to hock off state-owned power utilities to mainly overseas investors to make its books balance, so it can win another term in office.

It's grotesquely cynical political thinking. Yet another example of a rightwing government trying to buy itself back into power. Americans do it by buying not only their governments but their democracy.

The $NZ should be 10-15 points lower in order to improve returns from our exports/tourism and dampen down consumerism.

The only country not to match your survival tactics, we should be printing money just like you do. Difference is, we do not need to do it to save ourselves.

Peter1469
12-25-2012, 09:21 PM
Your dollar, yeah.

While you print paper as if trees are headed for extinction, and most other developed countries (and China, obviously) do the same, the NZ government stubbornly refuses to take monetary policy measures to devalue our dollar.

It is far too high. The official (government) position seems to be that it would have fiscal consequences they don't want.

My guess is that one of these is that it would deter investment. Just at a time when the government is trying to hock off state-owned power utilities to mainly overseas investors to make its books balance, so it can win another term in office.

It's grotesquely cynical political thinking. Yet another example of a rightwing government trying to buy itself back into power. Americans do it by buying not only their governments but their democracy.

The $NZ should be 10-15 points lower in order to improve returns from our exports/tourism and dampen down consumerism.

The only country not to match your survival tactics, we should be printing money just like you do. Difference is, we do not need to do it to save ourselves.

But printing money to "save yourself" is ultimately self defeating. It is a constructive default when I give you $100 and you devalue your currency to pay me back with $100 dollars that is worth 30 cents on the dollar to what I gave you. And at some point, the currency collapses. The only reason the US has gotten away with so much printing is the USD status as the world reserve currency.

And this form of debt control is not conservative or liberal; rather is it the common means used by most nations in history. Rome did the same thing with its gold coins, but adding other metals to the coins. It got so bad that barbarian tribes stopped accepting Roman coin!

Chris
12-25-2012, 09:23 PM
While you print paper...

Increasing the money supply, you're preaching to the choir: Peter, myself and others have been speaking out against it for ages.


Americans do it by buying not only their governments but their democracy.

Crony capitalism, again, preaching to the choir: Some of us have been speaking out against this for ages.



But you claim NZ is not increasing it's money supply or engaging in crony capitalism.

From New Zealand’s Money supply and our Domestic Credit (Lending) (http://www.johnpemberton.co.nz/html/money_supply.html):

http://i.snag.gy/GEslz.jpg

NZ is increasing the money supply.


And what about crony capitalism?

the failings of Key’s government (http://thestandard.org.nz/in-other-news-the-failings-of-keys-government/): "John Key’s government is failing to provide adequate policies for the environment, affordable housing, and a living wage, while continuing with their crony-capitalist neoliberal ways.... Winston Peter’s says the deal allowing CSA frequent flyers to dodge visa requirements, comes on top of Key’s pokie deal with Sky City. He says Key’s statements about these deals are contradictory and indicate crony-ism is involved."

A Message To The Crony Capitalists at PURE ADVANTAGE (http://truebluenz.com/2011/09/21/a-message-to-the-crony-capitalists-at-pure-advantage/): "...Yeah of course- “work with government”, a euphemism commonly used by crony capitalists in search of grants, low interest loans, subsidies and investments all financed by the hard pressed NZ taxpayer.... The US is suffocating and dying in a morass of crony capitalism. Already too deeply entrenched here in NZ, we definitely don’t need any more of it."

Auckland: Rise of the crony capitalists (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10666749): "Without this group of crony capitalists, some of whose names appear as directors or investors in company after company associated with Russell, Auckland would have been wholly dependent on loans from Australia or London and would not have been able to build the domestic economy on the success of the Thames gold boom."

NZ engages in crony capitalism.



Keep preaching to the choir.

Awryly
12-25-2012, 09:43 PM
Increasing the money supply, you're preaching to the choir: Peter, myself and others have been speaking out against it for ages.



Crony capitalism, again, preaching to the choir: Some of us have been speaking out against this for ages.



But you claim NZ is not increasing it's money supply or engaging in crony capitalism.

From New Zealand’s Money supply and our Domestic Credit (Lending) (http://www.johnpemberton.co.nz/html/money_supply.html):

http://i.snag.gy/GEslz.jpg

NZ is increasing the money supply.


And what about crony capitalism?

the failings of Key’s government (http://thestandard.org.nz/in-other-news-the-failings-of-keys-government/): "John Key’s government is failing to provide adequate policies for the environment, affordable housing, and a living wage, while continuing with their crony-capitalist neoliberal ways.... Winston Peter’s says the deal allowing CSA frequent flyers to dodge visa requirements, comes on top of Key’s pokie deal with Sky City. He says Key’s statements about these deals are contradictory and indicate crony-ism is involved."

A Message To The Crony Capitalists at PURE ADVANTAGE (http://truebluenz.com/2011/09/21/a-message-to-the-crony-capitalists-at-pure-advantage/): "...Yeah of course- “work with government”, a euphemism commonly used by crony capitalists in search of grants, low interest loans, subsidies and investments all financed by the hard pressed NZ taxpayer.... The US is suffocating and dying in a morass of crony capitalism. Already too deeply entrenched here in NZ, we definitely don’t need any more of it."

Auckland: Rise of the crony capitalists (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10666749): "Without this group of crony capitalists, some of whose names appear as directors or investors in company after company associated with Russell, Auckland would have been wholly dependent on loans from Australia or London and would not have been able to build the domestic economy on the success of the Thames gold boom."

NZ engages in crony capitalism.



Keep preaching to the choir.

Our money supply increases maintains more or less of a balance with our productivity. As it should in normal times. Which these are not..

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/new-zealand-gdp.png?s=wgdpnewz
But, because you people are trying to print yourself out of debt, so should we. Of course, our debt is exponentially lower than yours (100%+:30-35%), so our government thinks their is no desperate reason to do the same.

Of course NZ has crony capitalists. Everyone does. And we also have crooked capitalist financiers. Most of whom are galloping towards Her Majesty's prisons as we speak. You, on the other hand, let the same sort of people off with a warning because they have bribed you to make sure they go well rewarded.

But we have powerful groups that work against crony capitalists. You don't. Oddly enough, the group that is causing the government the most problems in trying to sell off our electricity generators are the Maori. Whose elite have become powerful capitalists themselves.

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 04:22 AM
Your dollar, yeah.

While you print paper as if trees are headed for extinction, and most other developed countries (and China, obviously) do the same, the NZ government stubbornly refuses to take monetary policy measures to devalue our dollar.

It is far too high. The official (government) position seems to be that it would have fiscal consequences they don't want.

My guess is that one of these is that it would deter investment. Just at a time when the government is trying to hock off state-owned power utilities to mainly overseas investors to make its books balance, so it can win another term in office.

It's grotesquely cynical political thinking. Yet another example of a rightwing government trying to buy itself back into power. Americans do it by buying not only their governments but their democracy.

The $NZ should be 10-15 points lower in order to improve returns from our exports/tourism and dampen down consumerism.

The only country not to match your survival tactics, we should be printing money just like you do. Difference is, we do not need to do it to save ourselves.

Once again you have a false senxe of pride in your country. It is a real good thing that your country is not printing money, as you already have issues

Liberals in the US are trying their best to make our money worthless, and even after printing trillions of dollars

It only takes 83 US cents to buy a New Zealand Dollar

http://coinmill.com/NZD_USD.html

Hell even the Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US dollar and they are a messed up country. You can't start printing money, or your dollar would be worth less than toilet paper!

Awryly
12-26-2012, 04:28 AM
Once again you have a false senxe of pride in your country. It is a real good thing that your country is not printing money, as you already have issues

Liberals in the US are trying their best to make our money worthless, and even after printing trillions of dollars

It only takes 83 US cents to buy a New Zealand Dollar

http://coinmill.com/NZD_USD.html

Hell even the Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US dollar and they are a messed up country. You can't start printing money, or your dollar would be worth less than toilet paper!

Not an economist, are you?

Points missed, again and again.

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 05:16 AM
Not an economist, are you?

Points missed, again and again.

I know that you may not understand this because it involves math, and math is not a fantasy?

If I can buy one of your dollars with .83 cents of my dollar, and we agree that my dollar is becoming worthless because Obama and Little Timmy are printing money like it was free?

Then that does not say a lot for your dollar does it?????

Or maybe you can under stand this, If I ran a store in the US and had a cangy bar for a dollar. And I did not want to screw myself, when you came into my store with your NZ dollar I would need to collect $1.17

Now I know that I am a Capitalist, and making I should be thinking of how to become poor instead of making money. But to me that means you have some curency problems of your own to worry about.

Most likely why your officials are trying to sell off the power plants to sure up the financial base. I would imagine that a lot of things get imported to your country, and it appears that oil is very high in your country, and with the low value of your currency this is a financial burden on your citizens.

And we have already detirmined that they do nto have a lot of cash to work with in the first place

Awryly
12-26-2012, 05:36 AM
I know that you may not understand this because it involves math, and math is not a fantasy?

If I can buy one of your dollars with .83 cents of my dollar, and we agree that my dollar is becoming worthless because Obama and Little Timmy are printing money like it was free?

Then that does not say a lot for your dollar does it?????

Or maybe you can under stand this, If I ran a store in the US and had a cangy bar for a dollar. And I did not want to screw myself, when you came into my store with your NZ dollar I would need to collect $1.17

Now I know that I am a Capitalist, and making I should be thinking of how to become poor instead of making money. But to me that means you have some curency problems of your own to worry about.

Most likely why your officials are trying to sell off the power plants to sure up the financial base. I would imagine that a lot of things get imported to your country, and it appears that oil is very high in your country, and with the low value of your currency this is a financial burden on your citizens.

And we have already detirmined that they do nto have a lot of cash to work with in the first place

How 'bout this?

Our dollar is too high to make our exports as competitive as they can be. We don't want the Chinese buying American, do we?

Awryly
12-26-2012, 05:45 AM
U 马鞍山市政府么地道:huh:

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 06:00 AM
How 'bout this?

Our dollar is too high to make our exports as competitive as they can be. We don't want the Chinese buying American, do we?

Now this I can agree with, but you are in a pickle? It would be nice to lower the value of your dollar for exports however being an Island country, I am guessing that you are heavily dependent on imports? I could be wrong.

lowering the value of your dollar would make all of this more expensive to the general population, looking at your economic statistics, I am guessing that a large part of your population is pretty good at getting the most for their money our your economy would not be moving along as good as it is?

But you must know by now, that if you want to have a discussion about policy I am all for it. Like this post. but if you want to bash the US for the sake of bashing the US, you had better make sure that your house is in order or I will find the flaws in your system and shed some light on them.

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 06:01 AM
U 马鞍山市政府么地道:huh:

should be vertical not horizontal, Not Nice!!!!!!!!

Awryly
12-26-2012, 06:03 AM
Now this I can agree with, but you are in a pickle? It would be nice to lower the value of your dollar for exports however being an Island country, I am guessing that you are heavily dependent on imports? I could be wrong.

lowering the value of your dollar would make all of this more expensive to the general population, looking at your economic statistics, I am guessing that a large part of your population is pretty good at getting the most for their money our your economy would not be moving along as good as it is?

But you must know by now, that if you want to have a discussion about policy I am all for it. Like this post. but if you want to bash the US for the sake of bashing the US, you had better make sure that your house is in order or I will find the flaws in your system and shed some light on them.


It would also, as I have said before (but I figure you weren't listening), reduce consumerism and encourage savings we can invest in ourselves.

But I suppose, to an American, that wouldn't make any sense.

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 06:08 AM
It would also, as I have said before (but I figure you weren't listening), reduce consumerism and encourage savings we can invest in ourselves.

But I suppose, to an American, that wouldn't make any sense.

It makes a lot of sense

We used consumer credit lines and home equity loans to try and prop up our economy from recessions and the corrections that all economies need.

Now we have a govenment that is trying to do the same with government spending?

I am sure that I do not need to tell you that neither will work. The real problem that we face is we do not have a political party that wants to address the problem, as these choices are hard and people will be effected.

Until it gets to the point of no return, I do not think that either party will address the issues, and this with make the pain that we will go through even harder.

Awryly
12-26-2012, 06:16 AM
U 马鞍山市政府么地道:huh:What this was trying to say clumsily (in Chinese, not Japanese, idiot) is that there are 5 days to go before you fall off the cliff.I think Obama wants you to.

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 06:55 AM
That is not what it says????

Chris
12-26-2012, 09:05 AM
Our money supply increases maintains more or less of a balance with our productivity. As it should in normal times. Which these are not..

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/new-zealand-gdp.png?s=wgdpnewz
But, because you people are trying to print yourself out of debt, so should we. Of course, our debt is exponentially lower than yours (100%+:30-35%), so our government thinks their is no desperate reason to do the same.

Of course NZ has crony capitalists. Everyone does. And we also have crooked capitalist financiers. Most of whom are galloping towards Her Majesty's prisons as we speak. You, on the other hand, let the same sort of people off with a warning because they have bribed you to make sure they go well rewarded.

But we have powerful groups that work against crony capitalists. You don't. Oddly enough, the group that is causing the government the most problems in trying to sell off our electricity generators are the Maori. Whose elite have become powerful capitalists themselves.


Our money supply increases

So now you reverse yourself. Earlier you said NZ wasn't increasing the money supply.


Of course NZ has crony capitalists.

So now you reverse yourself. Earlier you said NZ didn't engage in crony capitalism.


In our last argument you did the same. You first said NZ was impoverished, then shown data, you said the opposite.


Will the real slim awryly please stand up.

Awryly
12-26-2012, 09:15 AM
I see you being as fanciful as ever, moonbeam. This is what I said.


The only country not to match your survival tactics, we should be printing money just like you do. Difference is, we do not need to do it to save ourselves.

But we aren't.

GrumpyDog
12-26-2012, 01:45 PM
Off the cliff we, off the cliff we go, hi ho, Americo,.. off the cliff we go.

Only way to get both higher tax rate on wealthy, and cut budget, including the Reps pet industry, the Military Industrial Corporation.

Then, in January, Obama/Democrats offer first bill on the table: 25% tax cut for 98% of Americans, and sit back and enjoy Republicans trying to filibuster, to defend the rich 2%.

Peter1469
12-26-2012, 02:24 PM
Ah, class warfare! Soak it to the rich; what happens when they go Galt on you?

zelmo1234
12-26-2012, 04:00 PM
Ah, class warfare! Soak it to the rich; what happens when they go Galt on you?

peter, he is exactly right, the Dems plan on passing a tax cut for thos making less than 200 K right after the first part of the year. The house will add the military spending back to it and send it back to the Senate, And they will pass it. end result 1.6 trillion in deficites next year, one step closer to insolvency.

But it is even worse than that. Most companies that are going to be hit with the new tax rates and the Obamacare taxes and regulations have spent most of this year figureing out how to stay in business. In my case, I will have very little US profits next year. Most will be the parent company based out of Grand Caymen.

Their administration fees went sky high for next year. it is going to eat up almost everydime of profits for our company. We paid a little over 250K in corperate and income taxes this year, next year it will be less than 10K

Did I mention that my corperate tax rate in Grand Caymen is 11% Hmmmmmm!

To stay competitave and keep doors open many companies are faced with the same choices. This Administration is foolish, they assume like all people that have never run a business that business will just sit back and let the government put them out of business. Instead, they have figure out how to send their profits where they can afford to pay the taxes.

And it sucks to have to do this to your own country. But I still will have 48 people that depend on me to keep my doors open after the new year.

Deadwood
12-26-2012, 04:05 PM
It is not a cut in entitlements; which is exactly what I specified in the OP...

Well, clearly at least one person knows the difference.....

The ignorance on the left on economics is bottomless.

It would be acceptable if it were one or two, but this confusion on such a basic concept is widespread. One wonders how these morons balance a check book....

Or do they?

That would figure...just let the credit card companies let you know if you have any money...

yeah, that would make sense.

Deadwood
12-26-2012, 04:10 PM
How is " a cut in projected spending increase" not a cut? You've just said it is.

yawn...

A "cut" in economic terms means a change in the existing situation. What that change from $1.3T to $1T is a reduction in how much spending is increased, there are no "cuts" to existing programs, merely a reduction in spending.

Awryly
12-26-2012, 07:03 PM
yawn...

A "cut" in economic terms means a change in the existing situation. What that change from $1.3T to $1T is a reduction in how much spending is increased, there are no "cuts" to existing programs, merely a reduction in spending.

And how, pray, do you achieve a reduction in expenditure without cutting expenditure?

patrickt
12-26-2012, 07:30 PM
A reduction in the increase is still an increase unless they reduce it below what is currently being spent. No liberal will ever do that. I do finally understand why liberals are so set on teaching boys to masturbate in school. Liberals can't figure it out on their own.

Awryly
12-26-2012, 09:17 PM
4 days to go.


Congressional officials said they knew of no significant strides toward a compromise over a long Christmas (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10856226#) weekend, and no negotiations have been set.

Tell me, how is landing at the bottom of a cliff going to affect you? Personally.

ptif219
12-26-2012, 09:45 PM
Under Obama we will soon not be able to pay the interest on the debt

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/11/19/how-the-nations-interest-spending-stacks-up

Awryly
12-26-2012, 09:58 PM
Under Obama we will soon not be able to pay the interest on the debt

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/11/19/how-the-nations-interest-spending-stacks-up


Sorry about that. But I live in a country that knows how to manage its (small) debt.

I wish this "irrelevant" country could help more. But we are too busy supplying high quality food to the billions in South-East Asia.

Peter1469
12-27-2012, 05:43 PM
4 days to go.



Tell me, how is landing at the bottom of a cliff going to affect you? Personally.

For me, more federal income tax, more payroll taxes, and less disposable income. I assume that I will have to re-order my investments.

GrumpyDog
12-27-2012, 06:20 PM
Hey, everybody, look on the bright side:

uh.... Oh yea.. The mayan calendar and planet X and all.

Did not happen according to schedule either.

So more time and opportunity for some new profits, I mean prophets, to start predicting the next end.

ptif219
12-28-2012, 04:33 PM
And how, pray, do you achieve a reduction in expenditure without cutting expenditure?

You seem to know nothing about the baseline budget system we have

ptif219
12-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Obama is not serious about cutting spending. He can not come to agreement to stop fiscal cliff but issues executive order to lift freeze on government wages

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-orders-raise-biden-members-congress-federal-workers_692223.html


President Barack Obama issued an executive order to end the pay freeze on federal employees, in effect giving some federal workers a raise. One federal worker now to receive a pay increase is Vice President Joe Biden.
According to disclosure forms (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/vp_biden_complete_return_2011.pdf), Biden made a cool $225,521 last year. After the pay increase, he'll now make $231,900 per year.
Members of Congress, from the House and Senate, also will receive a little bump, as their annual salary will go from $174,000 to 174,900. Leadership in Congress, including the speaker of the House, will likewise get an increase.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 07:08 PM
Obama is not serious about cutting spending. He can not come to agreement to stop fiscal cliff but issues executive order to lift freeze on government wages

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-orders-raise-biden-members-congress-federal-workers_692223.html


Wow, what a big spender! A whole $900 pa for a member of congress. Admittedly they should be taking thousands in cuts to properly reward their performance, but have you noticed what the CEOs of major companies have awarded themselves?

Awryly
12-28-2012, 07:10 PM
For me, more federal income tax, more payroll taxes, and less disposable income. I assume that I will have to re-order my investments.


I like to see a good pragmatist. But what about all those people who earn, and probably have to eat, beans and can't actually afford "investments"?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 07:15 PM
I like to see a good pragmatist. But what about all those people who earn, and probably have to eat, beans and can't actually afford "investments"?

You mean the people who think back on their childhood and now wish that they applied themselves in school?

I was almost one of them. I graduated high school in the bottom quarter of my class. 4 years in the army gave me focus and I graduated college and law school with honors. And now I make enough money to live well and save lots for retirement. (But no kids- so that helps with the saving).

Awryly
12-28-2012, 07:22 PM
You mean the people who think back on their childhood and now wish that they applied themselves in school?

I was almost one of them. I graduated high school in the bottom quarter of my class. 4 years in the army gave me focus and I graduated college and law school with honors. And now I make enough money to live well and save lots for retirement. (But no kids- so that helps with the saving).


Ah, the myth of equal opportunity raises its head again. I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx.

Chris
12-28-2012, 08:16 PM
Ah, the myth of equal opportunity raises its head again. I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx.

Why the racist remark?

Awryly
12-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Why the racist remark?


Chris, you argue like a toy platypus. If you are not rambling on about semantics, you are rambling on about how clearly presented arguments contain a preposition you don't agree with.

So, let's hear what latest gem you have in store for us. How is the word "black" racist?

Not discounting the fact that I wrote "black boy" and you heard "nigger baaaaaaoy".

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 08:35 PM
Ah, the myth of equal opportunity raises its head again. I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx.

No, I was born white and went to some of the lesser performing public schools in the US. Sometimes we were 49, sometimes 50 (state stats). But we all had an equal opportunity to apply ourselves and achieve. But we had to apply ourselves to achieve. You just don't sit on your back side and wait for the rewards. At least in America.

Chris
12-28-2012, 08:38 PM
Chris, you argue like a toy platypus. If you are not rambling on about semantics, you are rambling on about how clearly presented arguments contain a preposition you don't agree with.

So, let's hear what latest gem you have in store for us. How is the word "black" racist?

Not discounting the fact that I wrote "black boy" and you heard "nigger boy".

So why the racist remark? And why the need to make things up to cover up your racism?

Awryly
12-28-2012, 08:39 PM
No, I was born white and went to some of the lesser performing public schools in the US. Sometimes we were 49, sometimes 50 (state stats). But we all had an equal opportunity to apply ourselves and achieve. But we had to apply ourselves to achieve. You just don't sit on your back side and wait for the rewards. At least in America.

No-one does. Even in America. People are not conditioned to failure unless they are mentally ill.

But some environments encourage mental illness more than others.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 08:58 PM
So why the racist remark? And why the need to make things up to cover up your racism?

That was the "gem"? That was all you could muster from the head you so have so aptly selected for your avatar?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=128&dateline=1341530664

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 08:58 PM
No-one does. Even in America. People are not conditioned to failure unless they are mentally ill.

But some environments encourage mental illness more than others.

Incorrect. Government assistance programs in America create dependency. We have people who refuse job offers because they can make more money on welfare.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 09:02 PM
Incorrect. Government assistance programs in America create dependency. We have people who refuse job offers because they can make more money on welfare.

Ah so. You have numbers? Or is it just the 535 in Washington DC?

You might like to consider some I have dredged up for your edification:


two years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_fraud) in the UK 56,493 people were caught defrauding the benefit system. This sounds like a lot, but if we consider that in in 2009 5.8 million were on the unemployment benefit alone, this means that less than 1% of all beneficiaries committed fraud.

Ah, but you are not talking about just fraud, are you? You are talking about all those lazy bones that suck money out of your system like farmers on government subsidies.

Numbers?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 09:07 PM
Ah so. You have numbers? Or is it just the 535 in Washington DC?

I just posted a couple of threads that answer that.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 09:14 PM
I just posted a couple of threads that answer that.

Links?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 09:19 PM
Look for my recent posts.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 09:39 PM
Look for my recent posts.


But where are the numbers of people who are living off your welfare system because they can't be bothered doing anything else?

Perhaps you also have the number of wealthy people sucking social welfare they don't need?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 09:53 PM
But where are the numbers of people who are living off your welfare system because they can't be bothered doing anything else?

Perhaps you also have the number of wealthy people sucking social welfare they don't need?

We jacked up unemployment payments to 99 weeks. Not surprisingly, a lot of these people don't start seriously looking for work until around week 90.

I agree that a lot of people getting assistance don't need it. That is our problem. Good eye Kiwi. You must make a good Orc hunter.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 10:10 PM
We jacked up unemployment payments to 99 weeks. Not surprisingly, a lot of these people don't start seriously looking for work until around week 90.

I agree that a lot of people getting assistance don't need it. That is our problem. Good eye Kiwi. You must make a good Orc hunter.


Numbers, please.

If it's not too much trouble.

I see unemployment payments are likely to also go over your collective cliff. But that will affect mainly bludgers, will it?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 10:19 PM
Numbers, please.

If it's not too much trouble.

I see unemployment payments are likely to also go over your collective cliff. But that will affect mainly bludgers, will it?

State by state and even city by city my Orc slaying friend.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 10:44 PM
State by state and even city by city my Orc slaying friend.

What does that mean?

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 10:45 PM
What does that mean?

Unemployment compensation is not federalized.

Captain Obvious
12-28-2012, 10:55 PM
Unemployment compensation is not federalized.

To a degree.

Wage earners pay a FUTA tax that funds a portion of unemployment benefits.

Peter1469
12-28-2012, 11:07 PM
Rates are local/

Chris
12-28-2012, 11:09 PM
That was the "gem"? That was all you could muster from the head you so have so aptly selected for your avatar?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=128&dateline=1341530664

Speaking of gems, criticizing my avatar takes the cake. Ironic that you're so angry that I point out that you made a racist remark:

"I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx."

What is racism again: "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Your problem, awryly, is your so flippant in your trolling that you make mistakes, like contradicting yourself, admitting you lie and say it's fun, and now, again, racist remarks.

I wouldn't expect anything less that in your anger you would try and make me look like the bad guy. What you don't realize is you keep bring your racist remark up for all to see.

Awryly
12-28-2012, 11:22 PM
Speaking of gems, criticizing my avatar takes the cake. Ironic that you're so angry that I point out that you made a racist remark:

"I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx."

What is racism again: "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Your problem, awryly, is your so flippant in your trolling that you make mistakes, like contradicting yourself, admitting you lie and say it's fun, and now, again, racist remarks.

I wouldn't expect anything less that in your anger you would try and make me look like the bad guy. What you don't realize is you keep bring your racist remark up for all to see.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore

Captain Obvious
12-28-2012, 11:40 PM
Rates are local/

State rates are local, the FUTA tax is the same for everyone.

By far state unemployment taxes fund most of the benefits, but half of extended benefits are funded federally.

Awryly
12-29-2012, 12:01 AM
State rates are local, the FUTA tax is the same for everyone.

By far state unemployment taxes fund most of the benefits, but half of extended benefits are funded federally.

It's only two million, anyhow. The NRA has double that.


An estimated 2 million workers stand to lose unemployment insurance benefits in December unless Congress restores federal extended benefits programs. Without them, jobless workers in most states would receive 26 weeks of unemployment benefits, instead of up to 99 weeks now. Maximum weeks of unemployment insurance available in states if federal benefits are not restored and the number of workers that stand to lose benefits this month:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-01-unemployment01_ST_N.htm

Not enough to swing an election. :grampa::grampa::grampa:

Deadwood
12-29-2012, 12:06 AM
Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore

Awlry?


You've been had.

Like deep had.

Now crawl back into the gutter and attack people's avatars, you're not ready to play with adults...

Awryly
12-29-2012, 12:08 AM
Awlry?


You've been had.

Like deep had.

Now crawl back into the gutter and attack people's avatars, you're not ready to play with adults...

OK, Slim. How's that emphysema goin"?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=243&dateline=1352864070

Chris
12-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Speaking of gems, criticizing my avatar takes the cake. Ironic that you're so angry that I point out that you made a racist remark:

"I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx."

What is racism again: "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Your problem, awryly, is your so flippant in your trolling that you make mistakes, like contradicting yourself, admitting you lie and say it's fun, and now, again, racist remarks.

I wouldn't expect anything less that in your anger you would try and make me look like the bad guy. What you don't realize is you keep bring your racist remark up for all to see.


Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore

Again, the flippant trolling response...that only once again raises your racist remark to the top.

Awryly
12-29-2012, 07:15 PM
Again, the flippant trolling response...that only once again raises your racist remark to the top.

I retract. The waves were not frothy.

(Sorry Lewis but Libertarians are anti-froth.)

Chris
12-29-2012, 07:53 PM
Speaking of gems, criticizing my avatar takes the cake. Ironic that you're so angry that I point out that you made a racist remark:

"I bet you weren't born a black boy in the Bronx."

What is racism again: "Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Your problem, awryly, is your so flippant in your trolling that you make mistakes, like contradicting yourself, admitting you lie and say it's fun, and now, again, racist remarks.

I wouldn't expect anything less that in your anger you would try and make me look like the bad guy. What you don't realize is you keep bring your racist remark up for all to see.


I retract. The waves were not frothy.

(Sorry Lewis but Libertarians are anti-froth.)

It's good to see you retract, but why the trolling with Libertarians? Must every post be a another troll? Don't you tire of it?

Awryly
12-29-2012, 07:58 PM
It's good to see you retract, but why the trolling with Libertarians? Must every post be a another troll? Don't you tire of it?

You amuse me.

Chris
12-29-2012, 08:01 PM
You amuse me.

And I amused you when I pointed out your racist remark. Just as you admitted you think lying is amusing.

Awryly
12-29-2012, 08:05 PM
And I amused you when I pointed out your racist remark. Just as you admitted you think lying is amusing.

That was less amusing than usual.

Awryly
12-30-2012, 08:01 PM
Buckle up, folks, for the ride to the bottom.
The top US Senate negotiators on the effort to prevent the government from going over the "fiscal cliff" offered a pessimistic assessment, barely 24 hours before a deadline to avert tax hikes on virtually every American worker. But negotiations continued, with Vice President Joe Biden taking on a new role. With the two sides differing on the income threshold for higher tax rates and how to deal with inheritance taxes, among other issues, talks between Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., and Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell appeared to have broken down. A McConnell spokesman said the Kentucky Republican reached out to Biden, a longtime friend, in hopes of breaking the impasse. This is just what Obama wanted. He can pick off each issue in turn, appealing all the while to the "American people" for "justice" and "sanity". Starting with tax relief for middle America. But not for the top 2%.

Republicans, meanwhile, will continue to look like the greedy dinosaurs they are. They will be routed come 2014.

Awryly
12-30-2012, 09:56 PM
http://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/1212/a9e1776ab09c5be94ce4.jpeg


The Founding Fathers carefully designed the US government structure and constitution to make it very difficult for one branch to dominate the other, what they probably did not foresee was the partisan brinkmanship politics that now dominates the US political scene.

The US House of Representatives is due to meet on Sunday to avert the cliff, while President Obama has cut short his holiday in Hawaii to meet with Senators to see if some deal can be reached.

The term ``cliff’’ is a bit dramatic for what will happen if they fail to agree, it is more a slope - with taxes being ratcheted up and spending programmes cut over a number of years.

In some ways for many economists going over the Fiscal Cliff would not be such a bad thing as it will sort out the US’s incredible deficit problem.

Though most predict the medicine will be so harsh (with an almost estimated 88 percent of Americans facing tax hikes and many hit by the end of Government assistance packages) it will knock the US into a very deep recession.


http://www.scoop.co.nz/

Peter1469
12-30-2012, 10:30 PM
Buckle up, folks, for the ride to the bottom. This is just what Obama wanted. He can pick off each issue in turn, appealing all the while to the "American people" for "justice" and "sanity". Starting with tax relief for middle America. But not for the top 2%.

Republicans, meanwhile, will continue to look like the greedy dinosaurs they are. They will be routed come 2014.

Our economy is going to crash because our government spends ~$1.3T per year more than it takes in taxes. That delta cannot be covered with taxes, it is not possible.

Awryly
12-30-2012, 10:44 PM
Our economy is going to crash because our government spends ~$1.3T per year more than it takes in taxes. That delta cannot be covered with taxes, it is not possible.


Pay your taxes. Never know. Maybe that will help.

zelmo1234
12-30-2012, 10:48 PM
Buckle up, folks, for the ride to the bottom. This is just what Obama wanted. He can pick off each issue in turn, appealing all the while to the "American people" for "justice" and "sanity". Starting with tax relief for middle America. But not for the top 2%.

Republicans, meanwhile, will continue to look like the greedy dinosaurs they are. They will be routed come 2014.

The Problem with your thinking is that Dems are already seeing the writing on the wall. They know in 2014 we will be dealing with the people will be suffering from the loss of there insurance, and many will have lost there jobs or have been moved to part time. And while it is not leagel to tell their employee's before an election that this is what will happen if this or that person is elected It will not be illegal to tell then they lost there jobs because of the polices that are being supported by the Democrats.

Yes they will try and blame the republicans, but by then the news will be full of obamacare jobs losses, and it will be hard to hide.

Awryly
12-30-2012, 10:53 PM
The Problem with your thinking is that Dems are already seeing the writing on the wall. They know in 2014 we will be dealing with the people will be suffering from the loss of there insurance, and many will have lost there jobs or have been moved to part time. And while it is not leagel to tell their employee's before an election that this is what will happen if this or that person is elected It will not be illegal to tell then they lost there jobs because of the polices that are being supported by the Democrats.

Yes they will try and blame the republicans, but by then the news will be full of obamacare jobs losses, and it will be hard to hide.

Depends what happens. If you pay your fair share of taxes and the middle class remains taxed at its current level, maybe all that will happen is that you reduce your defict.

After all, it's the middle class that creates the most jobs.

Live with it.

zelmo1234
12-30-2012, 11:04 PM
Depends what happens. If you pay your fair share of taxes and the middle class remains taxed at its current level, maybe all that will happen is that you reduce your defict.

After all, it's the middle class that creates the most jobs.

Live with it.

I will live with ti no matter what happens, but our CBO has already said that it will cost 400 thousand jobs

And of course there is the prices that will go up, and the fact that most of the time when you raise taxes, revenue goes down.

And maybe in your country the middle class hires people and employees them, but Obama is rasing taxes on those making more than 250K and in our country those are the people that create the jobs.

So I will live with it, shelter profits and will not be able to grow as much. I will not put my business in danger, or make it non profitable.

I will ahve to lay off workers at the end of next year to reduce my obamacare liabilities, and all of this will cause me to pay into the federal government about half of what I will pay in 2012

So I guess if I thought like you I would tell the people that are effected, (the middle class) to live with it?

So forgive me if I have a little laugh when things start falling apart, and the Democrats have to start deflecting the blame.

Also remember that the physical cliff has cuts to the entitlement programs in it, and those people were promised by the democrats that nobody would touch those programs?

They have a tightwire act to follow it should be fun to watch them deal with the economy that they created.

Awryly
12-30-2012, 11:07 PM
I will live with ti no matter what happens, but our CBO has already said that it will cost 400 thousand jobs

And of course there is the prices that will go up, and the fact that most of the time when you raise taxes, revenue goes down.

And maybe in your country the middle class hires people and employees them, but Obama is rasing taxes on those making more than 250K and in our country those are the people that create the jobs.

So I will live with it, shelter profits and will not be able to grow as much. I will not put my business in danger, or make it non profitable.

I will ahve to lay off workers at the end of next year to reduce my obamacare liabilities, and all of this will cause me to pay into the federal government about half of what I will pay in 2012

So I guess if I thought like you I would tell the people that are effected, (the middle class) to live with it?

So forgive me if I have a little laugh when things start falling apart, and the Democrats have to start deflecting the blame.

Also remember that the physical cliff has cuts to the entitlement programs in it, and those people were promised by the democrats that nobody would touch those programs?

They have a tightwire act to follow it should be fun to watch them deal with the economy that they created.

If you co-operate there will be no recession.

But I have to assume, like Obama, that you want one.

He will win. Dollars to doughnuts on that one.

Play ball or you will become fiscal fried chicken.

ptif219
12-31-2012, 01:29 PM
Wow, what a big spender! A whole $900 pa for a member of congress. Admittedly they should be taking thousands in cuts to properly reward their performance, but have you noticed what the CEOs of major companies have awarded themselves?

At least one democrat knows this is wrong

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/dem-representative-moves-block-obamas-congressional-pay-increase_692451.html

ptif219
12-31-2012, 01:32 PM
Pay your taxes. Never know. Maybe that will help.

The problem is 47% pay no taxes

roadmaster
12-31-2012, 01:54 PM
The problem is 47% pay no taxes

Some just don't make enough to pay taxes at the end of the year but they still take fed and state tax from their checks unlike illegals. All pay state taxes here when you buy anything. They tax you to death in the Carolinas and then I still end up have to pay again. I am always happy when I break even or come close.

Chris
12-31-2012, 02:15 PM
The problem is some pay over 47% taxes...

http://i.snag.gy/1VDr5.jpg

@ Government Will Take Almost Half Your Paycheck in 2013 (http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/13/government-will-take-almost-half-your-paycheck-in-2013/)

patrickt
12-31-2012, 02:56 PM
The problem is some pay over 47% taxes...

http://i.snag.gy/1VDr5.jpg

@ Government Will Take Almost Half Your Paycheck in 2013 (http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/13/government-will-take-almost-half-your-paycheck-in-2013/)

Those of us who work and pay taxes are sharecoppers. If far-left liberals have their way we'll be slaves. The leisure class--called deadbeats--won't be slaves. They'll still be deadbeats. People who live totally on the dole pay zero taxes since they have zero earned income. The taxpayers are paying their taxes, too. For liberals, those of us paying taxes aren't paying enough and those living on the dole aren't getting enough free stuff.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 06:31 PM
I will live with ti no matter what happens, but our CBO has already said that it will cost 400 thousand jobs

And of course there is the prices that will go up, and the fact that most of the time when you raise taxes, revenue goes down.

And maybe in your country the middle class hires people and employees them, but Obama is rasing taxes on those making more than 250K and in our country those are the people that create the jobs.

So I will live with it, shelter profits and will not be able to grow as much. I will not put my business in danger, or make it non profitable.

I will ahve to lay off workers at the end of next year to reduce my obamacare liabilities, and all of this will cause me to pay into the federal government about half of what I will pay in 2012

So I guess if I thought like you I would tell the people that are effected, (the middle class) to live with it?

So forgive me if I have a little laugh when things start falling apart, and the Democrats have to start deflecting the blame.

Also remember that the physical cliff has cuts to the entitlement programs in it, and those people were promised by the democrats that nobody would touch those programs?

They have a tightwire act to follow it should be fun to watch them deal with the economy that they created.

The CBO has said nothing of the sort. Where do you get your garbage from?


The CBO said the tax hikes for the wealthy would reduce job growth by around 200,000 jobs, much less than the 700,000 in job losses claimed by Republican Speaker of the House John A. Boehner.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/09/us-usa-fiscal-cbo-idUSBRE8A71D020121109

That's not much more than one month's increase in the current employment growth rate.

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 06:36 PM
The CBO has said nothing of the sort. Where do you get your garbage from?



http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/09/us-usa-fiscal-cbo-idUSBRE8A71D020121109

That's not much more than one month's increase in the current employment growth rate.

The CBO, by law, uses static accounting models. So their figures are bunk.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 06:36 PM
The problem is 47% pay no taxes

The problem is you have no clue about employment demographics. You do know not all Americans do not earn $250k a year and that some can't, thanks to the way you have structured your society, earn anything at all?

Awryly
12-31-2012, 06:39 PM
The CBO, by law, uses static accounting models. So their figures are bunk.

Another case, in your opinion, of the law being an ass? Like the ones that say money is speech and corporations are people?

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 06:39 PM
The problem is you have no clue about economic demographics. You do know not all Americans do not earn $250k a year and that some can't, thanks to the way you have structured your society, earn anything at all?

People in the US have equal opportunity to achieve. They don't have equal outcomes. Unfortunately many people don't attempt to acheive until after years or decades of slacking off. For them to now demand "equality" is a bit too late in the game.

patrickt
12-31-2012, 06:50 PM
The problem is you have no clue about employment demographics. You do know not all Americans do not earn $250k a year and that some can't, thanks to the way you have structured your society, earn anything at all?

You're close. The problem, Awryly, is you don't have a clue. Period. I will agree liberals are busting their asses to see that poor people stay poor and more Americans become poor but the society is not structured to prevent anyone from earning anything at all.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 06:55 PM
People in the US have equal opportunity to achieve. They don't have equal outcomes. Unfortunately many people don't attempt to acheive until after years or decades of slacking off. For them to now demand "equality" is a bit too late in the game.

Tommy rot. People in the US do not have equal opportunity to achieve. This is one of your many myths. Accidents of birth, which include (among a host of other things) being born into wealthy families or into poor families, and pure dumb luck, are what creates success (as Americans happen to measure it).

zelmo1234
12-31-2012, 07:15 PM
Helloooooooooooooooo? What is this if not a spending cut?



http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/01/obama-defense-cuts/1#.ULwmOuSV25w

It is called an increase in taxes with no spending cuts!

The 487 billion is money that would not have been spent anyway, because as Obama stated the wars are winding down.

It will be funny to see the people that find out there jobs were tied to those tax cuts? As for me what will be will be, like many companies we have planed for this, so cuts and shelters are already in place.

zelmo1234
12-31-2012, 07:24 PM
Another case, in your opinion, of the law being an ass? Like the ones that say money is speech and corporations are people?

I know that in NZ you know everything about our country, but the CBO is only allowed to score a bill with the conditions that are stipulated. The score that you are quoting are the growth numbers, so the job rate will loose 200 thousand in growth.

Thet are not allowed to apply comon sense, which would tell anyone that a company that is struggling right now, will have to cut employee's or go bankrupt.

but no matter, I decided that my New years resolution is to laugh at liberals that do not understand why they lost there job.

It is a sad day for those small business people that wanted to invest in their business next year. That money will go to Obama now. And he can find a green energy company to give it to that will go bankrupt a few months later.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 07:34 PM
It is called an increase in taxes with no spending cuts!

The 487 billion is money that would not have been spent anyway, because as Obama stated the wars are winding down.

It will be funny to see the people that find out there jobs were tied to those tax cuts? As for me what will be will be, like many companies we have planed for this, so cuts and shelters are already in place.

"Obama stated". What a curious hypocrisy. Obama was the one who stopped/is stopping these wars, n'est-ce pas?

Or do you think someone else did and Obama is just trying to get the credit?

Awryly
12-31-2012, 07:36 PM
I know that in NZ you know everything about our country, but the CBO is only allowed to score a bill with the conditions that are stipulated. The score that you are quoting are the growth numbers, so the job rate will loose 200 thousand in growth.

Thet are not allowed to apply comon sense, which would tell anyone that a company that is struggling right now, will have to cut employee's or go bankrupt.

but no matter, I decided that my New years resolution is to laugh at liberals that do not understand why they lost there job.

It is a sad day for those small business people that wanted to invest in their business next year. That money will go to Obama now. And he can find a green energy company to give it to that will go bankrupt a few months later.


I imagine you speak of your "common sense". What is the CBO for if not to make impartial estimates of the economic impact of policy changes?

zelmo1234
12-31-2012, 07:40 PM
Tommy rot. People in the US do not have equal opportunity to achieve. This is one of your many myths. Accidents of birth, which include (among a host of other things) being born into wealthy families or into poor families, and pure dumb luck, are what creates success (as Americans happen to measure it).

You are funny, Have you ever been to America?? And if so where did you visit.

There is plenty of oppertunity in America. I was a died in the wool liberal that blamed everyone on the planet for my lack of success juntil I was in my 30's When a customer of mine took the time to show me how people get rich in America.

I started to copy everything that I saw my wealthy clients doing, which I found was working a lot more than I did. I soon started to clime out of debt. Then had an oppertunity to cash in on my security qualifications and built a business from the ground up, sold that business, and started building another one in a different industry.

Now I work as a marketing consultant for distribution networks, and still the rest of my family blames everyone else for there failure. Except me, they are to busy asking for bailouts to cover their bad habits. But what are you going to do they are family.

Now acording to AW only the rich have a chance, but this is not true, look at the % of first generation millionaires?

http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2011/nov/09/greedy-filthy-millionaires/

80% of which I am one, made their money, nobody handed it to them.

Now President obama would tell you that they did not build that, that a teacher helped them, if this is the case why are all the other students that this teacher taught not millionaires?

yes there is so much oppertunity in America, but many will choose not to seek it, which they should have the freedom to choose. but for this government to try and take from those that did have the will and guts to seek there dream and give it to the people that have not chose to follow that path.

And those on the left will call this fair.

zelmo1234
12-31-2012, 07:44 PM
I imagine you speak of your "common sense". What is the CBO for if not to make impartial estimates of the economic impact of policy changes?

It is a body that scores bills so politicians can lie about the results, both side of the asile! It has very little to do with reality. This is why each and every program that the government trys to under take, cost way more than it was scored by the CBO. It is a political game.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE]You are funny, Have you ever been to America?? And if so where did you visit.

No. Why would I want to? You have nothing I want or need. And much I don't.


There is plenty of oppertunity in America. I was a died in the wool liberal that blamed everyone on the planet for my lack of success juntil I was in my 30's When a customer of mine took the time to show me how people get rich in America.

I started to copy everything that I saw my wealthy clients doing, which I found was working a lot more than I did. I soon started to clime out of debt. Then had an oppertunity to cash in on my security qualifications and built a business from the ground up, sold that business, and started building another one in a different industry.

Now I work as a marketing consultant for distribution networks, and still the rest of my family blames everyone else for there failure. Except me, they are to busy asking for bailouts to cover their bad habits. But what are you going to do they are family.

Now acording to AW only the rich have a chance, but this is not true, look at the % of first generation millionaires?

http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2011/nov/09/greedy-filthy-millionaires/

80% of which I am one, made their money, nobody handed it to them.

Now President obama would tell you that they did not build that, that a teacher helped them, if this is the case why are all the other students that this teacher taught not millionaires?

yes there is so much oppertunity in America, but many will choose not to seek it, which they should have the freedom to choose. but for this government to try and take from those that did have the will and guts to seek there dream and give it to the people that have not chose to follow that path.

And those on the left will call this fair.

That sort of accident happens everywhere. And is the dumb luck part of my equation.

This explains the situation much more accurately.


Cross country comparisons have been performed for a number of years using different measures (for a summary, please see the Economic Mobility Project (http://www.pewstates.org/projects/economic-mobility-project-328061) ) where the countries included Australia, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Norway, Sweden and United States. The studies have examined income mobility elasticity (the percentage of increase in a son's income associated with a 1 percent increase in the father's income), correlations between income of two generations as well as examining the probability of someone born in one income level moving to another. All of these studies have drawn the same conclusion, that the United States has lower, not higher, mobility than other wealthy countries. For example, in the studies on income mobility elasticity, it was seen that an American man's income is nearly twice as reliant on his father's background as a Canadian man's.

One interesting study examined the probability that a son will remain in his father's income quintile, where a quintile represents one-fifth of the population ranked from lowest to highest income. In that study of six countries (Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, the United Kingdom, and the United States), the data demonstrate that 42 percent of the American sons of fathers born in the poorest quintile landed in the poorest quintile themselves. This rate of the persistence of poverty was far higher than the 30 percent found in the United Kingdom and well above the 25 percent to 28 percent range found in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.html

I know you think your happy little anecdotes somehow prove what passes for your thinking. But I'm afraid you are talking nonsense. Again.

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 07:59 PM
Tommy rot. People in the US do not have equal opportunity to achieve. This is one of your many myths. Accidents of birth, which include (among a host of other things) being born into wealthy families or into poor families, and pure dumb luck, are what creates success (as Americans happen to measure it).

Incorrect my courageous Orc slayer. In America people shift up and down the economic structure based upon merit at amazing rates. We have poor become millionaires, and billionaires. We have rich squander their money and become poor. And in the middle we have people who save and create very comfortable nest eggs.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 08:07 PM
Incorrect my courageous Orc slayer. In America people shift up and down the economic structure based upon merit at amazing rates. We have poor become millionaires, and billionaires. We have rich squander their money and become poor. And in the middle we have people who save and create very comfortable nest eggs.


Like everyone else, you have a few exceptions, that's all.

But you canonise them to try to prove a lie. Check post 182 again.

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 08:21 PM
Like everyone else, you have a few exceptions, that's all.

But you canonise them to try to prove a lie. Check post 182 again.

You have a point with the current regime. I was focusing on a broader period of American history.

ptif219
12-31-2012, 08:28 PM
Some just don't make enough to pay taxes at the end of the year but they still take fed and state tax from their checks unlike illegals. All pay state taxes here when you buy anything. They tax you to death in the Carolinas and then I still end up have to pay again. I am always happy when I break even or come close.

State taxes are not the issue Fed income tax has become a welfare payment. In Florida I have no state income tax


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121910303529751345.html

ptif219
12-31-2012, 08:31 PM
The problem is you have no clue about employment demographics. You do know not all Americans do not earn $250k a year and that some can't, thanks to the way you have structured your society, earn anything at all?


Last year I was part of the 47% and got more back in a income tax refund than all the payroll deductions combined. I paid no taxes and got an income tax welfare payment

Awryly
12-31-2012, 08:45 PM
Last year I was part of the 47% and got more back in a income tax refund than all the payroll deductions combined. I paid no taxes and got an income tax welfare payment


Yet you are a Republican.

Why?

Awryly
12-31-2012, 08:46 PM
You have a point with the current regime. I was focusing on a broader period of American history.

That period when a few guys had the dumb luck to strike oil?

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 08:53 PM
That period when a few guys had the dumb luck to strike oil?

Not just that.

zelmo1234
12-31-2012, 09:13 PM
[QUOTE=zelmo1234;209140]

No. Why would I want to? You have nothing I want or need. And much I don't.



That sort of accident happens everywhere. And is the dumb luck part of my equation.

This explains the situation much more accurately.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-steven-friedman/class-mobility_b_1676931.html

I know you think your happy little anecdotes somehow prove what passes for your thinking. But I'm afraid you are talking nonsense. Again.

80% of the people that make a million dollars made it by dumb luck????

And nice try but the huffington post has a very liberal political agenda, and while bortz is a conservative the stats that I qouted are from the dept of treasury.

So how many people made a million dollars due to domb luck in the USA?

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/22/u-s-has-record-number-of-millionaires/

So we have 3.1 million and 80% of that is ?? drumroll please? 2480000 made it by dumb luck

So now how many people are millionaires are there in your country?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10533729

7000 millionaires in your country Thats it, now this is 2008 I hope that you have had some real growth.

And I thought that you Kiwi's traveled the world to become "worldly and educated" So I thought that you might want to visit a country that was actually significant on the world stage. Because the more I look into New Zealand, the more it looks like a third world country.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 09:41 PM
[QUOTE=Awryly;209154]

80% of the people that make a million dollars made it by dumb luck????

And nice try but the huffington post has a very liberal political agenda, and while bortz is a conservative the stats that I qouted are from the dept of treasury.

So how many people made a million dollars due to domb luck in the USA?

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/22/u-s-has-record-number-of-millionaires/

So we have 3.1 million and 80% of that is ?? drumroll please? 2480000 made it by dumb luck

So now how many people are millionaires are there in your country?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10533729

7000 millionaires in your country Thats it, now this is 2008 I hope that you have had some real growth.

And I thought that you Kiwi's traveled the world to become "worldly and educated" So I thought that you might want to visit a country that was actually significant on the world stage. Because the more I look into New Zealand, the more it looks like a third world country.

Pretty much. You are either born into money by dumb luck or you stumble across something worth money, largely by dumb luck. Most inventions worth anything were discovered accidentally.

America's "significance" on the world stage is vastly over-rated. In another 15-20 years it will rate second to China.

I have absolutely no wish to visit a country that can't even manage its own affairs.

What would I learn? Other than what not to do?

ptif219
12-31-2012, 09:48 PM
Yet you are a Republican.

Why?

No I am a conservative independent I voted Constitution party.

I take what ever democrats say I am entitled to.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 09:52 PM
No I am a conservative independent I voted Constitution party.

I take what ever democrats say I am entitled to.

But you are a con. Why?

Peter1469
12-31-2012, 10:54 PM
[QUOTE=zelmo1234;209185]

Pretty much. You are either born into money by dumb luck or you stumble across something worth money, largely by dumb luck. Most inventions worth anything were discovered accidentally.

America's "significance" on the world stage is vastly over-rated. In another 15-20 years it will rate second to China.

I have absolutely no wish to visit a country that can't even manage its own affairs.

What would I learn? Other than what not to do?

That does not comport with reality in America.

Awryly
12-31-2012, 11:00 PM
[QUOTE=Awryly;209195]

That does not comport with reality in America.

"Comport", huh? "Reality", huh?

Do you purport to import that you support the comportation that America has more import than everyone else thinks?

Awryly
12-31-2012, 11:02 PM
The suspense is unbearable. Cliff or no cliff?

I hear the Pugs are folding.

My apologies to those who have no idea what the OP was.

ptif219
01-01-2013, 12:13 AM
But you are a con. Why?

Because I believe in small government and cutting spending and low taxes. Obama is destroying this country and will cause another recession

ptif219
01-01-2013, 12:14 AM
The suspense is unbearable. Cliff or no cliff?

I hear the Pugs are folding.

My apologies to those who have no idea what the OP was.

Depends on the house now. I hope the teaparty stands their ground

Awryly
01-01-2013, 12:24 AM
Depends on the house now. I hope the teaparty stands their ground


I see you have a fascinating fondness for cliffs.

You do know the government hand-outs you apparently live off will decrease?

ptif219
01-01-2013, 01:59 AM
I see you have a fascinating fondness for cliffs.

You do know the government hand-outs you apparently live off will decrease?

I don't live off them. You are an arrogant ass that knows nothing of what you talk about. i have no problem paying taxes it is the democrats that buy votes with hand outs.

Obama will get caught in his lies and when he guts national security the affects will surprise many people

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 04:55 AM
[QUOTE=zelmo1234;209185]

Pretty much. You are either born into money by dumb luck or you stumble across something worth money, largely by dumb luck. Most inventions worth anything were discovered accidentally.

America's "significance" on the world stage is vastly over-rated. In another 15-20 years it will rate second to China.

I have absolutely no wish to visit a country that can't even manage its own affairs.

What would I learn? Other than what not to do?

If you wish to learn what not to do, America would be a Great place to visit, we can agree on that. But you would meet a peopel that would inspire you, and if you vist the cities where the Democrats will tell you they have been fighting the war on poverty, but in reality have doom the people to a dependency on the government that creates a life that is hardley worth living.

You would visit a private Scholl system that forces students to strive for achievement and does not reward the average and the failing to try and boost their self esteem. It allows students the embarrasment of failure, even to the point of having to repeat a Grade and face that failure. A system that turns out strong , bright and motivated Children.

You would then visit a public Scholl system that invests more than double the amount that the private schools invest in students, yet because the policies of social promoting, no winers and no losers, self esteem promotions designed to be compassi. onate, a system designed to indoctrinate, not educate, a system that fails the students both good and poor and turns ou kids that now need 5 or 6 years to complete their collage education because they have to play catchup. You would see that socialism and compassion once again fail to produce results.

You wuld visit Gun ranges and see owners that are responsible and respect these weapons, if you desired you would shoot targets and flying clays learning that the last thing on peoples minds is violence toward others, and you would visit the inner city where the guns are illegal for the most part and a group of kids that have decided that drugs and gang violence are the only possible path to the top, because the Democrats have convinced them that living on the government program is the only choice that they have.

You would see the beauty of a country, and the disaster of social program that were designed to support rather than help one learn to support themselves. Yes you would learn what not to do? but you would see a people that if the burden of regulation and taxation was lifted, have the ability to create the jobs and wealth of a new generation.

You might even find that the people do not meet yoru expectation, but exceed them

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 05:04 AM
I don't live off them. You are an arrogant ass that knows nothing of what you talk about. i have no problem paying taxes it is the democrats that buy votes with hand outs.

Obama will get caught in his lies and when he guts national security the affects will surprise many people

While I have been rehabing this stupid foot, and have had a little more time for reading and research, I have become less worried about the future.

If you look to the policies of FDR, Carter, and Now Obama, you will see that after periods of growth, Americans try to help the poor and suffering. Social programs are instituted that make those that have chosen to not persue there dream through hard work, but take what they can with the least amont of effort. These program of course make the problem worse. The statement made by Jesus, that you will always have the poor with you rings true. because some will choose not to strive for achievement, and will remain poor, that is their comfort zone.

I watch as periods of the use of the American Military and the sucess on the battle field, are followed by these compassionate Democrats that choose to reduce the strenght of America in hopes that our enemies will learn to love us.

These periods have always been followed with leaders that have done great things, they have lifted the burder of taxation and regulation, and and the building of peace through strenght.

Socialism has always failed in American and while each and every time it has doom more people to poverty, it has also produce a new generation of people that understand the failures of socialism.

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 05:14 AM
I see you have a fascinating fondness for cliffs.

You do know the government hand-outs you apparently live off will decrease?

You know that jumping of a cliff is the best way to learn how to fly.

There was a group of economist that reported yesterday that the cliff was more like a speed bump, and that the real damage was in the military cuts.

Obama has through Obamacare and hsi insistance on takig the money that would be used to create jobs and jump start the economy, and have companies and people use it to pay new taxes. Yes we will have another recession, but this is the path that we as a nation muct follw for the people to learn once again that government is the problem and only through freedom and personal responsibility will we find the growth to get our debt under control.

Yes this hardship will be longer than most and China with it's dedication toward personel ownership and responsibility and their massive population may very well become that largest economy in the world. but as they reduce the regulations and taxations they will create a thriving middle class that will opne the markets for American to once again turn on the economic engine to meet these needs.

Yes our best days come after a learning periods, and we must learn forgotten lessions of the Reagan era again, but this is not such a bad thing.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 05:58 AM
You know that jumping of a cliff is the best way to learn how to fly.

There was a group of economist that reported yesterday that the cliff was more like a speed bump, and that the real damage was in the military cuts.

Obama has through Obamacare and hsi insistance on takig the money that would be used to create jobs and jump start the economy, and have companies and people use it to pay new taxes. Yes we will have another recession, but this is the path that we as a nation muct follw for the people to learn once again that government is the problem and only through freedom and personal responsibility will we find the growth to get our debt under control.

Yes this hardship will be longer than most and China with it's dedication toward personel ownership and responsibility and their massive population may very well become that largest economy in the world. but as they reduce the regulations and taxations they will create a thriving middle class that will opne the markets for American to once again turn on the economic engine to meet these needs.

Yes our best days come after a learning periods, and we must learn forgotten lessions of the Reagan era again, but this is not such a bad thing.


I am reliably told that jumping off cliffs is deleterious to your health.

You, your weapons manufacturers and the rightwing economists you probably talk to , no doubt think reducing military spending is unAmerican. Here we think it is a great idea.

And I may need to have to remind you that Reagan was simply a frontboy for the last two.

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 06:53 AM
I am reliably told that jumping off cliffs is deleterious to your health.

You, your weapons manufacturers and the rightwing economists you probably talk to , no doubt think reducing military spending is unAmerican. Here we think it is a great idea.


And I may need to have to remind you that Reagan was simply a frontboy for the last two.


hard to be a front boy for someone that is Dead, but if you mean that his social policies of cutting taxes and spending were nearly the same as JFK you are correct. Like I said JFK and his policies would not be welcome in the democratic party of today.

Aw you are very proud of the success of your country, and you should be, the conservative government has reduced regulations, reduced taxes and made people personel responsible for their lives. This has brought about the growth and reduced debt and lower crime rate that you have.

even though the average income when you convert the lower value of your dollr compaired to the US dollar is almost identical to someone on welfare in our country. So with a lower standard of living you have become a nation that has controled spending and debt and people have hope and have not turned to the drug trade and violence of dispare that we see in the inner cities of this country.

It does not surprise me that You would think reduced military spending by our country is a good thing, I am sure that Iran and Syria and Russia think it is a good thing too?

The funny part of this is, You long for the policies of the Democrats in Your country. It will lead to the same results

Peter1469
01-01-2013, 07:31 AM
Because I believe in small government and cutting spending and low taxes. Obama is destroying this country and will cause another recession

Recession? More likely a total currency collapse. Possibly an end to America as we know it.

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 09:22 AM
While going through insolvency would be one of the toughest economic adventures that the USA has ever been through.

It may be the thing that saves the nation, not destroys it. Once the country reaches insolvency, the days of a free lunch are over.

At the point we become insolvent, the Democrats will no longer be able to tell the American people that taxation will take care of the problem. though the taxes will increase dramatically they will also increase on everyone. to the pointthat only about 5% of the populations will be exempt from income tax.

There will be starvation and homelessness in this country that has not been seen since the great depression, But the government will be forced to return to only the constitutional principles that it was granted, there will be no money for other policies and the safty net will in fact be gone, hopefully not but most likely including the Social Security Program.

From what I see of the youth of this country and the current educational system hell bent on indoctrination, instead of education, this is the only possible return to constitutional values. Now we may very well split and become 2 nations at that point, but at least you will ahve a choice of what nation you want ot live in!

Peter1469
01-01-2013, 09:49 AM
While going through insolvency would be one of the toughest economic adventures that the USA has ever been through.

It may be the thing that saves the nation, not destroys it. Once the country reaches insolvency, the days of a free lunch are over.

At the point we become insolvent, the Democrats will no longer be able to tell the American people that taxation will take care of the problem. though the taxes will increase dramatically they will also increase on everyone. to the pointthat only about 5% of the populations will be exempt from income tax.

There will be starvation and homelessness in this country that has not been seen since the great depression, But the government will be forced to return to only the constitutional principles that it was granted, there will be no money for other policies and the safty net will in fact be gone, hopefully not but most likely including the Social Security Program.

From what I see of the youth of this country and the current educational system hell bent on indoctrination, instead of education, this is the only possible return to constitutional values. Now we may very well split and become 2 nations at that point, but at least you will ahve a choice of what nation you want ot live in!

It is a process to purge liberalism from the nation.

GrumpyDog
01-01-2013, 10:28 AM
http://abundanttruth.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/rip-gop.jpg?w=595

Ok, Democrats, we can stop digging now. Casket is covered,and grave stone placed.

Mainecoons
01-01-2013, 10:37 AM
Good. We want there to be no question as to whom was responsible for wrecking the economy of the United States.

Idiot.

Peter1469
01-01-2013, 11:07 AM
Dems get to own the currency collapse and possible end of the US as a nation.

Good on them.

Chris
01-01-2013, 11:37 AM
But you are a con. Why?


Because I believe in small government and cutting spending and low taxes. Obama is destroying this country and will cause another recession

Seems awryly failed to respond to this answer. Perhaps it just doesn't fit his media-based definition of conservative.

Mainecoons
01-01-2013, 02:03 PM
Looking at this deal, I think someone needs to bury the GOP. $41 in new taxes for every $1 in spending cuts.

Obama has to be laughing his ass off.

ptif219
01-01-2013, 06:17 PM
While I have been rehabing this stupid foot, and have had a little more time for reading and research, I have become less worried about the future.

If you look to the policies of FDR, Carter, and Now Obama, you will see that after periods of growth, Americans try to help the poor and suffering. Social programs are instituted that make those that have chosen to not persue there dream through hard work, but take what they can with the least amont of effort. These program of course make the problem worse. The statement made by Jesus, that you will always have the poor with you rings true. because some will choose not to strive for achievement, and will remain poor, that is their comfort zone.

I watch as periods of the use of the American Military and the sucess on the battle field, are followed by these compassionate Democrats that choose to reduce the strenght of America in hopes that our enemies will learn to love us.

These periods have always been followed with leaders that have done great things, they have lifted the burder of taxation and regulation, and and the building of peace through strenght.

Socialism has always failed in American and while each and every time it has doom more people to poverty, it has also produce a new generation of people that understand the failures of socialism.

Good luck with that it has never been this bad before. We have the highest sustained unemployment since the great depression and the slowest economic recovery since the great depression.

This country has gone from the American dream to give me my government freebies.

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 06:59 PM
You know I looked at the economy during that carter administration, and while we have some debt issues that werew not around then, we have some things that are better now too.

first there is now over 2 trillion in corporate dollars waiting to be brought beck into this economy, as soon as we get a President and congress that have a clue to what stimulates the economy.

Next we have Unions that are much weaker than they have been in a long time. This should allow us to bring back some of the manufacutring jobs at reasonable rates.

next we have natural gas and coal coming out the wazoo! This will provide a cheap source of energy when the government gets out of the way.

And last our economy is getting so bad that the illegals are going home.

So there is a silver lining, American exceptionalism is not dead, the governemnt is just in the way right now.

Even my realitivly small corporation, has to look to other markets where profits are not being confiscatied by a government. I will not be alble to invest those profits in the USA until they chage the tax policy, but that day is coming.

The Democrats know that what they are doing will not work, they have tried it before, they just hope against hope that they will hit the economic jackpot and it will bail us out.

So cheer up insolvencey, while difficult, is the brick wall that the Dems can not tear down. It is the day that the country will become responsible once again, and those that have no skills and have been living off the government free stuff, will suffer the most as there will be dno social saftynet when this happens, everyone will have to learn to sink or swim on there own.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 07:47 PM
Good luck with that it has never been this bad before. We have the highest sustained unemployment since the great depression and the slowest economic recovery since the great depression.

This country has gone from the American dream to give me my government freebies.


Your so-called "dream" turned into a nightmare decades ago.

Chris
01-01-2013, 08:05 PM
But you are a con. Why?


Your so-called "dream" turned into a nightmare decades ago.

Thanks to progressives, er, liberals, er, social democrats advancing their unsustainable socialist agenda.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 08:48 PM
Wonderful.


A last-ditch Senate compromise to avert the fiscal cliff appeared to be in jeopardy with House Republicans slamming the deal negotiated with the White House and demanding more must be done to cut spending.The measure that sought to maintain tax cuts for most Americans but increase rates on the wealthy passed the Democratic-led Senate overwhelmingly early on Tuesday. But Republican frustration over deficit-reduction muddled prospects for final action in the GOP-controlled House.
"This is not a good deal," said Rep. Steve LaTourette of Ohio. "This is a sad state of affairs -- that we're going to take a bill that was passed on New Year's Eve by some sleep-deprived octogenarians that has very, very heavy on taxes and does nothing to cut spending, which is really part of the big problem that we have in the country."
The Senate bill would raise roughly $600 billion in new revenues over 10 years, according to various estimates.http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/01/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html

These Republicans represent nothing but their own wallets and the wealthy and their lobbyists.

Why do average Americans let them get away with this nonsense? Their interests are, or should be, different. Yet they blindly vote for these predators.

Religion? Tradition? Stupidity?

Chris
01-01-2013, 09:05 PM
These Republicans represent nothing but their own wallets and the wealthy and their lobbyists.

And you draw that conclusion from what in your citation? ...Absolutely nothing.

The citation says "House Republicans slamming the deal negotiated with the White House and demanding more must be done to cut spending." Nothing at all to do with your conclusion.

Where your conclusion does come from is the talking points of the liberal media.


Why do average Americans let them get away with this nonsense?

Now that's a good question. Consider: 'The Senate bill would raise roughly $600 billion in new revenues over 10 years, according to various estimates."

$600B over 10 years.

Now consider the following courtesy of mainecoons @ http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9875-Thank-God-We-re-Saved!:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/12-2/Tax%20Hike%20In%20Perspective.jpg

$600B over 10 years does pay for even last year's $1089B budget deficit.

Madness indeed.



Religion? Tradition? Stupidity?

Trolling?

ptif219
01-01-2013, 09:34 PM
Your so-called "dream" turned into a nightmare decades ago.

Only in a foreigner's eye. Your obsession with our country tells me you want a part of the American dream

ptif219
01-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Wonderful.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/01/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html

These Republicans represent nothing but their own wallets and the wealthy and their lobbyists.

Why do average Americans let them get away with this nonsense? Their interests are, or should be, different. Yet they blindly vote for these predators.

Religion? Tradition? Stupidity?

Unlike the democrats and wall street and Unions and environmentalists groups. Obama has gotten much money and he pays them back. Look at Solyndra and the auto unions.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 09:38 PM
Only in a foreigner's eye. Your obsession with our country tells me you want a part of the American dream

I am interested in your country only because you are a case study in how not to run a democracy.

It's fascinating how you have got almost everything so wrong.

You must be proud.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 09:39 PM
Unlike the democrats and wall street and Unions and environmentalists groups. Obama has gotten much money and he pays them back. Look at Solyndra and the auto unions.

If Obama had not saved the auto industry, you would have lost millions of jobs along the supply, manufacturing and distribution chain.

He saved you.

The auto industry is now in great shape.

Chris
01-01-2013, 10:33 PM
I am interested in your country only because you are a case study in how not to run a democracy.

It's fascinating how you have got almost everything so wrong.

You must be proud.

We don't have a democracy, awryly, we have a republic--see the Constitution. You get these things wrong, you're corrected, then you repeat them, ad nauseum. Yo must be proud, so proud you can't see how wrong you are.

Chris
01-01-2013, 10:40 PM
If Obama had not saved the auto industry, you would have lost millions of jobs along the supply, manufacturing and distribution chain.

He saved you.

The auto industry is now in great shape.

To begin with, you, Janus-faced troll that you are, just contradicted "you are a case study in how not to run a democracy" in your previous post by now posting about how we're a success.

This has been explained to you as well. If they hadn't bailed GM and Chrysler would have declared bankruptcy, restructured and gone on, or sold out to new manufacturers. No jobs would have been lost. But the unions would have lost members. As it is, because of bail outs, GM is doing great in China, and US taxpayers have lost billions.

So you got this wrong too. You must be proud.

ptif219
01-01-2013, 10:47 PM
I am interested in your country only because you are a case study in how not to run a democracy.

It's fascinating how you have got almost everything so wrong.

You must be proud.

No, you are jealous of the most powerful country in the world

ptif219
01-01-2013, 10:49 PM
If Obama had not saved the auto industry, you would have lost millions of jobs along the supply, manufacturing and distribution chain.

He saved you.

The auto industry is now in great shape.

No Obama saved the unions. He gave one third of the company to the unions. Obama did not care about the company he care about his cash cow the union

You show how you are a liberal hack and do not state facts just Obama talking points which are lies

Awryly
01-01-2013, 10:58 PM
No, you are jealous of the most powerful country in the world

Am I? Why would that be?

Awryly
01-01-2013, 11:01 PM
No Obama saved the unions. He gave one third of the company to the unions. Obama did not care about the company he care about his cash cow the union

You show how you are a liberal hack and do not state facts just Obama talking points which are lies


He saved jobs. The guy he sent into save GM said it was the worst-managed company he had ever come across.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 11:41 PM
Enjoy.


Even if U.S. lawmakers prevent the worst of the so-called "fiscal cliff,'' the political brinksmanship in Washington over taxes and spending is likely to continue damaging the fragileeconomy (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10857025#) well into 2013.A months-long standoff over fiscal policy has taken its toll, adding uncertainty that has discouraged consumers from spending and businesses from hiring and investing.
The fighting seems sure to persist even if the House of Representatives goes along with a partial fix passed by the Senate in Tuesday's early hours. Under that plan, taxes will rise on household incomes over $450,000. But fierce opposition from House Republicans left unclear whether a final agreement could be reached before the current Congress ends Thursday.

The Japanese have a name for this.

They call it hari-kari.

We call it "hardly caring".

Watch your stock market plummet in the next few weeks.

ptif219
01-02-2013, 12:59 AM
Am I? Why would that be?

I don't know. Why are you so obsessed with us.

ptif219
01-02-2013, 01:00 AM
He saved jobs. The guy he sent into save GM said it was the worst-managed company he had ever come across.

That is crap. Obama did not care it was the unions that gave him money he needed to save.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 02:38 AM
Wonderful.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/01/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html

These Republicans represent nothing but their own wallets and the wealthy and their lobbyists.

Why do average Americans let them get away with this nonsense? Their interests are, or should be, different. Yet they blindly vote for these predators.

Religion? Tradition? Stupidity?

You fogot a couple responsibility, prosperity, growth

You see you tell us all the time that NZ can not learn anything from American because we are failing, and you are right, liberalisn, tax and spend policies of the Democrats have us rolling in debt and their regulations and taxations have business sheltering and looking to invest elsewhere.

Your government has lowered taxes and regulations and you have an economy that is starting to fly.

Yet you hate those policies for us,

So what is it, either our country sucks because of the policies of the democrats, or your country sucks because of the policies that the republicans would support

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 02:45 AM
I am interested in your country only because you are a case study in how not to run a democracy.

It's fascinating how you have got almost everything so wrong.

You must be proud.

See we agree again Your conservative government is on the right track, We need to get rid of un needed regulations, return to a top tax rate of 33% like you have in NZ and be reasonable with our social programs like means testing for SS, even though the wealth have paid into the system their entire life.

If we would just adopt the policies that the Republicans are suggesting we could be a much better democracy, the democrats want the Stalin like control over people live have completely killed the freedoms of the republic.

It is a shame we could learn much from your conservative governement

Awryly
01-02-2013, 04:15 AM
See we agree again Your conservative government is on the right track, We need to get rid of un needed regulations, return to a top tax rate of 33% like you have in NZ and be reasonable with our social programs like means testing for SS, even though the wealth have paid into the system their entire life.

If we would just adopt the policies that the Republicans are suggesting we could be a much better democracy, the democrats want the Stalin like control over people live have completely killed the freedoms of the republic.

It is a shame we could learn much from your conservative governement

'Scuse me. What "democracy" do you have that could be improved?

You don't have one.

But it's good to see you applaud the way we spread the wealth. You Republicans do that too, do you?

Peter1469
01-02-2013, 07:26 AM
I am interested in your country only because you are a case study in how not to run a democracy.

It's fascinating how you have got almost everything so wrong.

You must be proud.

Strange, we are not a democracy.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 07:36 AM
'Scuse me. What "democracy" do you have that could be improved?

You don't have one.

But it's good to see you applaud the way we spread the wealth. You Republicans do that too, do you?

Please show me in Your country how you are distributing wealth? You tax rates are 10.6% less on the top earners tha ours

And Yes i do happen to distribute wealth, I employ people at rates well above the national average, they have free access to my tax accountants and brokers. We have put people through collage and continuing education and I donate to the charities of my choice double what I can legally deduct, because if you just donate what you can deduct, then you have given nothing?

What have you done to distripute your earnings toward your fellow man???

We do not have a democracy, we have a republic, there is a difference!

And we could have great improvements in the way the we run it, but the democrats will have to continue to lie to the american people for a few more election cycles before they run out of money, and the dollar collapses. then, and I beleive only then will we start to rebuild our nations using the constitution as our guide.

They will continue to lie, as it is there nature, but even the un educated voter will be able to see through the smoke screen.

ptif219
01-02-2013, 01:22 PM
'Scuse me. What "democracy" do you have that could be improved?

You don't have one.

But it's good to see you applaud the way we spread the wealth. You Republicans do that too, do you?

it seems your government wants to work with us so we protect you

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/9774217/Tsunami-bomb-tested-off-New-Zealand-coast.html

GrumpyDog
01-02-2013, 01:29 PM
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/556242/thumbs/s-REPUBLICAN-ENVIRONMENTAL-GROUP-large.jpg

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:04 PM
The hoary old mantra "we are not a democracy" raises its chestnutty head again.

"We are a republic" up goes the cry.

North Korea is a republic. So you are the same?

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:06 PM
'Tsunami bomb' tested off New Zealand coast The United States and New Zealand conducted secret tests of a "tsunami bomb" designed to destroy coastal cities by using underwater blasts to trigger massive tidal waves.



It will come in handy if Australia gets uppity.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Please show me in Your country how you are distributing wealth? You tax rates are 10.6% less on the top earners tha ours

And Yes i do happen to distribute wealth, I employ people at rates well above the national average, they have free access to my tax accountants and brokers. We have put people through collage and continuing education and I donate to the charities of my choice double what I can legally deduct, because if you just donate what you can deduct, then you have given nothing?

What have you done to distripute your earnings toward your fellow man???

We do not have a democracy, we have a republic, there is a difference!

And we could have great improvements in the way the we run it, but the democrats will have to continue to lie to the american people for a few more election cycles before they run out of money, and the dollar collapses. then, and I beleive only then will we start to rebuild our nations using the constitution as our guide.

They will continue to lie, as it is there nature, but even the un educated voter will be able to see through the smoke screen.

If you are talking about charitable donations, you had better read this:


New Zealanders have doubled their donations to charity in the past six years, a new report from Philanthropy New Zealand shows.
Kiwis gave around $2.67 billion to charitable and community causes during 2011, compared to $1.27 billion in 2006.
The Christchurch Earthquake saw a spike in donations as people contributed to emergency relief and rebuild funds for the city, but Philanthropy NZ says the climb in donations has been consistent even without these figures.
The increase means New Zealand has now overtaken Australia to be second only to the United States in charitable donations.


Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/NZ-charity-donations-double-since-2006/tabid/420/articleID/244692/Default.aspx#ixzz2GrXJ33J8



Some thousands of that were mine. But charity is a fickle mistress.

Reliable wealth distribution can occur consistently only through the tax system. And NZ does it rather better than most.

It supports lower and middle class workers with handsome tax transfers through a programme called Working for Families, the idea being, obviously, to support the parents of children in the workforce by supplementing their income, thus offsetting the costs of working.

That's not to mention, of course, the vast array of special subsidies to help people with retirement savings programmes, accommodation costs, disabilities, and health costs. Our Student Loans are interest-free.

BB-35
01-02-2013, 06:29 PM
The hoary old mantra "we are not a democracy" raises its chestnutty head again.

"We are a republic" up goes the cry.

North Korea is a republic. So you are the same?

East Germany,the DDR said they were both a democracy AND a republic



Were they?

Chris
01-02-2013, 06:33 PM
The hoary old mantra "we are not a democracy" raises its chestnutty head again.

"We are a republic" up goes the cry.

North Korea is a republic. So you are the same?

Article 4, Section 4: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..." This notion of res publica echoes Article I, Section 9, "No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States...."



Korea's full title is "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Do you really think any of that is true?

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:34 PM
East Germany,the DDR said they were both a democracy AND a republic

Were they?]

How could they be both? So say your compatriots here.

They say the US is not a democracy.

Peter1469
01-02-2013, 07:43 PM
The hoary old mantra "we are not a democracy" raises its chestnutty head again.

"We are a republic" up goes the cry.

North Korea is a republic. So you are the same?

North Korea isn't a republic. Don't let the name fool you.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 07:46 PM
North Korea isn't a republic. Don't let the name fool you.

Huh? Why shouldn't it fool me?

What difference is there between you and North Korea? Apart from size.

hanger4
01-02-2013, 08:57 PM
Huh? Why shouldn't it fool me?

What difference is there between you and North Korea? Apart from size.

I use to think you were being facetious with remarks like this,

but seeing as how you don't know the difference between a democracy and a democratic republic

now I know you're just kind a not real smart.

I over estimated you Awryly, it won't happen again.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 09:15 PM
If you are talking about charitable donations, you had better read this:



Some thousands of that were mine. But charity is a fickle mistress.

Reliable wealth distribution can occur consistently only through the tax system. And NZ does it rather better than most.

It supports lower and middle class workers with handsome tax transfers through a programme called Working for Families, the idea being, obviously, to support the parents of children in the workforce by supplementing their income, thus offsetting the costs of working.

That's not to mention, of course, the vast array of special subsidies to help people with retirement savings programmes, accommodation costs, disabilities, and health costs. Our Student Loans are interest-free.

I have found that Charity is the most rewarding thing that one can do. It is one of the reason that I still get up and go to work.

So your top tax rate is 33%, and you tax almost everyone, but subsidise and allow deductions to the middle class and you have student loans that have no interest rates.

We have 47% of the people that through deductions do not pay any federal income taxes at all. our top tax rate with yesterdays increase plus Obama care is 43.6%

You have no capital gains tax and we have a top rate of 20% on capital gains

Low income families qualify for Grants and very well may get a full ride for there education, Some have no interest loans, and some have low interest loans depending on the income level of the family.

So your distribution is well behind Obama, but the problem with that is people nolonger have the desire to invest, so they just start living off past earnings and pay little to no taxes.

It is a real catch 22 your country is doing a great job with it's taxation and social safty net, the taxes are fair and reasonable, and the saftey net is there for those that need it but makes it difficult to become dependent.

You have every right to be proud, but don't follow the path that obama and the democrats, who's policies are becomeing so opressive that business is moving out of the country in order to remain profitable and competitive.