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Bethere
11-16-2017, 04:13 PM
This just stinks to high heaven.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwjOq57HgMTXAhWFwYMKHRTzDtAQqUMIMjAD&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

The Trump administration’s decision to loosen restrictions (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/16/us-to-allow-imports-of-elephant-trophies-from-zimbabwe) around the import of elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Zambia has turned attention back to the president’s family’s own connection to the controversial sport.
Donald Trump Jr (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donald-trump-jr) and Eric Trump are prolific big-game hunters and during the 2016 campaign, images re-emerged of the pair on a 2011 hunting trip posing with animals they had killed on safari, including an elephant, a buffalo and a leopard.

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DGUtley
11-16-2017, 04:16 PM
I'm against it but I did see an article today or yesterday that this was done at the behest of the government there.

Bethere
11-16-2017, 04:23 PM
I'm against it but I did see an article today or yesterday that this was done at the behest of the government there.

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Grokmaster
11-16-2017, 05:05 PM
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Bethere
11-16-2017, 11:33 PM
White House says decision to lift ban on elephant hunting trophies from Africa isn't 'finalized'AOL.com - 3 hours ago

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwiivbLT48TXAhUH2SYKHRxFCz8QqOcBCCkwAQ&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Dr. Who
11-16-2017, 11:34 PM
Trophy hunters are psychopaths. They are not killing for food, they simply enjoy killing. It's a power trip. If they could legally kill people, they would line up for the opportunity to hunt and kill a human being.

Dr. Who
11-16-2017, 11:35 PM
White House says decision to lift ban on elephant hunting trophies from Africa isn't 'finalized'AOL.com - 3 hours ago

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwiivbLT48TXAhUH2SYKHRxFCz8QqOcBCCkwAQ&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
How to restart the ivory trade in one fell swoop.

Abby08
11-16-2017, 11:55 PM
So, this means elephants will be slaughtered by the thousands, just for their tusks and, now, it will be legal........ sickening.

Common Sense
11-16-2017, 11:56 PM
What's wrong with these people?

Tahuyaman
11-16-2017, 11:57 PM
Trophy hunters are psychopaths. They are not killing for food, they simply enjoy killing. It's a power trip. If they could legally kill people, they would line up for the opportunity to hunt and kill a human being.Generally the meat goes to others. It doesn't go to waste.

Tahuyaman
11-16-2017, 11:59 PM
How to restart the ivory trade in one fell swoop.The US can't create laws which apply to African nations.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 12:17 AM
The US can't create laws which apply to African nations.
The ivory trade has practically been eliminated because most nations banned its importation. This opens the door again and the poachers will be selling tusks to fake hunters who will now legally bring them into the US. It's wrong. The African elephant is an at-risk species. I cannot understand the desire to kill these majestic creatures for what is essentially a large tooth that people want simply because it's hard to get.

resister
11-17-2017, 12:19 AM
I bet Trump caused the extinction of the Columbian mammoth and the Mastadon and Gomphthere, 10,000 years ago!

Tahuyaman
11-17-2017, 12:24 AM
The ivory trade has practically been eliminated because most nations banned its importation. This opens the door again and the poachers will be selling tusks to fake hunters who will now legally bring them into the US. It's wrong. The African elephant is an at-risk species. I cannot understand the desire to kill these majestic creatures for what is essentially a large tooth that people want simply because it's hard to get. The US can't impose laws upon any African nation. The US can not overturn the laws of any African nation.

KathyS
11-17-2017, 12:50 AM
Frankly, I'm really torn about this. I abhor the hunting of elephants, giraffes, zebras, etc. But as a responsible deer hunter, I understand the need to cull herds in order to keep the deer population healthy. We work with the state of Texas wildlife biologists every year to hunt responsibly. IOW, they do a count of deer on our lease and then tell us how many does, cull bucks, etc. need to be harvested every year.

Anyway, it's a tough conversation to have and I want to hear both sides before I form an opinion.

Common Sense
11-17-2017, 12:57 AM
Frankly, I'm really torn about this. I abhor the hunting of elephants, giraffes, zebras, etc. But as a responsible deer hunter, I understand the need to cull herds in order to keep the deer population healthy. We work with the state of Texas wildlife biologists every year to hunt responsibly. IOW, they do a count of deer on our lease and then tell us how many does, cull bucks, etc. need to be harvested every year.

Anyway, it's a tough conversation to have and I want to hear both sides before I form an opinion.

I understand deer hunting. It helps supplant the natural predators that are no longer prevalent. It also feeds those who hunt...and it's a challenge. Shooting an elephant isn't really a challenge. I don't understand the mindset of those who would want to shoot an elephant or giraffe.

Tahuyaman
11-17-2017, 01:02 AM
If African nations, Thailand and others want to ban the export of ivory no law US law will change that.

Some idiots look for outrages where none exist.

Common Sense
11-17-2017, 01:05 AM
If African nations, Thailand and others want to ban the export of ivory no law US law will change that.

Some idiots look for outrages where none exist.

You could see how allowing imports could increase the trade though, right? No one is saying that the US change their laws, but US laws can have an impact on increasing this trade.

KathyS
11-17-2017, 01:53 AM
I understand deer hunting. It helps supplant the natural predators that are no longer prevalent. It also feeds those who hunt...and it's a challenge. Shooting an elephant isn't really a challenge. I don't understand the mindset of those who would want to shoot an elephant or giraffe.
Me either, Common Sense. As I said, I need to research the issue before I offer an opinion. However, from what I can gather so far, animals killed provide food for many.
We donate the deer meat to various programs such as Hunters for the Hungry.

https://www.feedingtexas.org/get-involved/hunt/

That being said, I don't know how well hunting is regulated in Africa, and it may be corrupt for all I know.

leekohler2
11-17-2017, 02:50 AM
The ivory trade has practically been eliminated because most nations banned its importation. This opens the door again and the poachers will be selling tusks to fake hunters who will now legally bring them into the US. It's wrong. The African elephant is an at-risk species. I cannot understand the desire to kill these majestic creatures for what is essentially a large tooth that people want simply because it's hard to get.


Me either, Common Sense. As I said, I need to research the issue before I offer an opinion. However, from what I can gather so far, animals killed provide food for many.
We donate the deer meat to various programs such as Hunters for the Hungry.

https://www.feedingtexas.org/get-involved/hunt/

That being said, I don't know how well hunting is regulated in Africa, and it may be corrupt for all I know.

There's your answer right there. Elephants do not fall into the same category as deer. There are plenty of deer, way too many on some places. There are not plenty of elephants.

Oh, and deer are yummy to eat. I'm glad there are a lot of them.

Tahuyaman
11-17-2017, 10:31 AM
You could see how allowing imports could increase the trade though, right? No one is saying that the US change their laws, but US laws can have an impact on increasing this trade.


The US not banning the import of ivory will not have an impact upon the elephant population in Africa.

Captdon
11-17-2017, 11:35 AM
This has nothing to do with other countries. It has to do with not allowing the trade here. I support most of what Trump does but this one is just plain wrong.

AZ Jim
11-17-2017, 12:24 PM
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Kalkin
11-17-2017, 12:26 PM
Trump sons' hunting in focus as US lifts import ban on African elephant

It's best to hunt in focus, for sure. You might shoot the wrong target if your vision is blurry.

Kalkin
11-17-2017, 12:28 PM
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Where's the blood on that knife? Photoshop, anyone? lol.

Grokmaster
11-17-2017, 05:13 PM
This just stinks to high heaven.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwjOq57HgMTXAhWFwYMKHRTzDtAQqUMIMjAD&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

The Trump administration’s decision to loosen restrictions (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/16/us-to-allow-imports-of-elephant-trophies-from-zimbabwe) around the import of elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Zambia has turned attention back to the president’s family’s own connection to the controversial sport.
Donald Trump Jr (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donald-trump-jr) and Eric Trump are prolific big-game hunters and during the 2016 campaign, images re-emerged of the pair on a 2011 hunting trip posing with animals they had killed on safari, including an elephant, a buffalo and a leopard.

21075

More left ignorance of how conservation, wildlife management, and "herd health" work.

Culling the herd is a critical part of keeping it vibrant and healthy. SPECIFIC ANIMALS are tagged for culling , for beig too old to contribute to the breeding health of the herd, sickness, etc.

Substantial fees are paid to the conservation/poaching/game management operations of the nations involved for the right to hunt these specifically chosen for culling animals. It is one of the PRIMARY WAYS preserves, etc., are financed.

Any edible meat taken, is the property of the nearest village, to be eaten.


Please explain how the "left outrage" is anything more than emotional nonsense . based in IGNORANCE of the Real World...the left's "special gift"......

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 05:33 PM
Me either, Common Sense. As I said, I need to research the issue before I offer an opinion. However, from what I can gather so far, animals killed provide food for many.
We donate the deer meat to various programs such as Hunters for the Hungry.

https://www.feedingtexas.org/get-involved/hunt/

That being said, I don't know how well hunting is regulated in Africa, and it may be corrupt for all I know.
Unlike deer, gestation for an elephant is 22 months and the mother may not give birth again until their 15-year-old is ready to go out on its own, as elephants mature slowly and are not born knowing most of what they need to know to survive the hostile savannah. Minimally a cow will not reproduce again until the calf is fully weaned, which is at about 3 years of age and then only if there is a great support system i.e. a large herd of cows. On average they may give birth every 5 years. Elephants are similar to humans, being far more reliant on education than instinct. Under eight years old calves spend 80% of their time within 16 feet of their mother and 91% of their time within 16 feet of another adult family member. In fact, immature elephants spend more than half of their time 3 feet or less from another family member. Large herds contain many allomothers, who help raise the immature elephants, comprised of cows without young and often older females. It's the elephant version of it taking a village to raise children. Also, like humans, they are very long-lived i.e. 70 years in the wild. This is not a species prone to overpopulation.

Grokmaster
11-17-2017, 05:49 PM
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Grokmaster
11-17-2017, 05:50 PM
Unlike deer, gestation for an elephant is 22 months and the mother may not give birth again until their 15-year-old is ready to go out on its own, as elephants mature slowly and are not born knowing most of what they need to know to survive the hostile savannah. Minimally a cow will not reproduce again until the calf is fully weaned, which is at about 3 years of age and then only if there is a great support system i.e. a large herd of cows. On average they may give birth every 5 years. Elephants are similar to humans, being far more reliant on education than instinct. Under eight years old calves spend 80% of their time within 16 feet of their mother and 91% of their time within 16 feet of another adult family member. In fact, immature elephants spend more than half of their time 3 feet or less from another family member. Large herds contain many allomothers, who help raise the immature elephants, comprised of cows without young and often older females. It's the elephant version of it taking a village to raise children. Also, like humans, they are very long-lived i.e. 70 years in the wild. This is not a species prone to overpopulation.

The elephants culled are removed for being too old to benefit the herd, usually.

Tahuyaman
11-17-2017, 06:08 PM
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Ol Jim always provides the most substantive comments in a discussion.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 07:02 PM
The elephants culled are removed for being too old to benefit the herd, usually.
Old elephants are like elders in a community. They pass on knowledge to the young. It is not like shorter-lived species that live primarily on instinct. Killing elephant elders before their time robs the elephant community of that gradual knowledge transfer. People apply a one size fits all approach to these things and then wonder why a species goes into sudden decline.

Kacper
11-17-2017, 07:09 PM
Unlike deer, gestation for an elephant is 22 months and the mother may not give birth again until their 15-year-old is ready to go out on its own, as elephants mature slowly and are not born knowing most of what they need to know to survive the hostile savannah. Minimally a cow will not reproduce again until the calf is fully weaned, which is at about 3 years of age and then only if there is a great support system i.e. a large herd of cows. On average they may give birth every 5 years. Elephants are similar to humans, being far more reliant on education than instinct. Under eight years old calves spend 80% of their time within 16 feet of their mother and 91% of their time within 16 feet of another adult family member. In fact, immature elephants spend more than half of their time 3 feet or less from another family member. Large herds contain many allomothers, who help raise the immature elephants, comprised of cows without young and often older females. It's the elephant version of it taking a village to raise children. Also, like humans, they are very long-lived i.e. 70 years in the wild. This is not a species prone to overpopulation.

It is limited to a couple countries, one of which has 80K elephants IIRC. I don't love the idea of it, but then again, I do not have 80K elephants trampling about the place either. But the reality is these animals will be killed anyway whether or not their parts can come in as trophies. We do not get to dictate conservation policies in Zimbabwe

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 07:28 PM
It is limited to a couple countries, one of which has 80K elephants IIRC. I don't love the idea of it, but then again, I do not have 80K elephants trampling about the place either. But the reality is these animals will be killed anyway whether or not their parts can come in as trophies. We do not get to dictate conservation policies in Zimbabwe
If there is no market or ability to bring in these "trophies", it doesn't matter whether Zimbabwe has entirely responsible policies, because the market for the poachers disappears. The governments of these nations cannot police every person in the wilderness, thus poaching has been destroying species for years. The only way to stop it is to cut off the markets.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 07:30 PM
The US not banning the import of ivory will not have an impact upon the elephant population in Africa.

The biggest market for such products on the planet will indeed make a difference.

Kacper
11-17-2017, 07:39 PM
If there is no market or ability to bring in these "trophies", it doesn't matter whether Zimbabwe has entirely responsible policies, because the market for the poachers disappears. The governments of these nations cannot police every person in the wilderness, thus poaching has been destroying species for years. The only way to stop it is to cut off the markets.

Except that does not seem to be the case as some of their herds are getting hit pretty hard already by poachers with the policy in place. At least this way, the country makes some money to fund those conservation efforts as opposed to the poachers making all the money, so I at least see the virtue in it. Besides, if the market for ivory opens up, it incentivizes the market for ivory which monetizes the efforts to de-tusk more males.

Personally I wouldn't have made the decision Trump did, but I really do not see that it is a huge deal either way. Keeping the ban in place is symbolic as much as undoing another Obama fiat is symbolic for Trump.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 08:07 PM
Except that does not seem to be the case as some of their herds are getting hit pretty hard already by poachers with the policy in place. At least this way, the country makes some money to fund those conservation efforts as opposed to the poachers making all the money, so I at least see the virtue in it. Besides, if the market for ivory opens up, it incentivizes the market for ivory which monetizes the efforts to de-tusk more males.

Personally I wouldn't have made the decision Trump did, but I really do not see that it is a huge deal either way. Keeping the ban in place is symbolic as much as undoing another Obama fiat is symbolic for Trump.
I see this a bit differently. I am a citizen of the planet earth first, so all the creatures on the planet don't belong to the arbitrary respective governments that end up being in charge of their continued existence. We only have one planet and everything on it is a legacy left to us by previous generations. We are the stewards of the planet and it is everyone's responsibility to maintain our wonderful wildlife and not let politics and poverty result in losses of irreplaceable species to desperation and greed. Instead of making or intervening in wars which ultimately come down to the allocation of resources, perhaps we would be better off, in this case, helping the poachers to survive and providing them with a means to earn a living without killing at-risk species for trophies for the sick, wealthy members of society who only value things that others cannot afford.

Kacper
11-17-2017, 08:31 PM
I see this a bit differently. I am a citizen of the planet earth first, so all the creatures on the planet don't belong to the arbitrary respective governments that end up being in charge of their continued existence. We only have one planet and everything on it is a legacy left to us by previous generations. We are the stewards of the planet and it is everyone's responsibility to maintain our wonderful wildlife and not let politics and poverty result in losses of irreplaceable species to desperation and greed. Instead of making or intervening in wars which ultimately come down to the allocation of resources, perhaps we would be better off, in this case, helping the poachers to survive and providing them with a means to earn a living without killing at-risk species for trophies for the sick, wealthy members of society who only value things that others cannot afford.

A citizen of Mars has as much say as to what Zimbabwe does as you as a citizen of earth does. Nothing Trump does is going to stop them from culling parts of the herd. If you want to paypal poachers, feel free, but I doubt it saves a single elephant. California loves saving animals once it extincted the monster grizzly bears eating Californians. Give everybody in Zimbabwe a middle class American lifestyle if you want, and you will see that the elephants that are not dying because of loss of habitat, will be exterminated because they are causing too many Subaru deaths and are eating people's Gardenia bushes out their perfectly manicured lawns. If you want to save the majestic elephants of Zimbabwe, are you willing to cull the people of Zimbabwe instead because that eventually will be the choice if we followed your proposal.

Grokmaster
11-17-2017, 08:35 PM
Old elephants are like elders in a community. They pass on knowledge to the young. It is not like shorter-lived species that live primarily on instinct. Killing elephant elders before their time robs the elephant community of that gradual knowledge transfer. People apply a one size fits all approach to these things and then wonder why a species goes into sudden decline.


Animals are tagged to be culled by ACTUAL experts on conservation and wildlife management, who understand herd health. Actual nature isn't "Bambi". They know which animals should be removed from the herd.

Peter1469
11-17-2017, 08:39 PM
More left ignorance of how conservation, wildlife management, and "herd health" work.

Culling the herd is a critical part of keeping it vibrant and healthy. SPECIFIC ANIMALS are tagged for culling , for beig too old to contribute to the breeding health of the herd, sickness, etc.

Substantial fees are paid to the conservation/poaching/game management operations of the nations involved for the right to hunt these specifically chosen for culling animals. It is one of the PRIMARY WAYS preserves, etc., are financed.

Any edible meat taken, is the property of the nearest village, to be eaten.


Please explain how the "left outrage" is anything more than emotional nonsense . based in IGNORANCE of the Real World...the left's "special gift"......
Plus, if you don't cull some of these herds, many many more will starve to death over the winter months when there isn't enough food to sustain the herds.

Peter1469
11-17-2017, 08:42 PM
If there is no market or ability to bring in these "trophies", it doesn't matter whether Zimbabwe has entirely responsible policies, because the market for the poachers disappears. The governments of these nations cannot police every person in the wilderness, thus poaching has been destroying species for years. The only way to stop it is to cut off the markets.

Much of those markets are in China.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 08:53 PM
Much of those markets are in China.

Which is closing at the end of this year: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/12/wildlife-watch-china-legal-ivory-market-african-elephants/

Grokmaster
11-17-2017, 08:54 PM
Plus, if you don't cull some of these herds, many many more will starve to death over the winter months when there isn't enough food to sustain the herds.
Hence the term "culling". It's like weeding a garden. The wildlife refuges depend on the fees that this earns for their operations.

Dr. Who
11-17-2017, 08:55 PM
Animals are tagged to be culled by ACTUAL experts on conservation and wildlife management, who understand herd health. Actual nature isn't "Bambi". They know which animals should be removed from the herd.
All "experts" are not created equally and often government policy overrides best practices.