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IMPress Polly
11-25-2017, 11:25 AM
The excellence of Wonder Woman this summer (which exceeded even my expectations) left me mildly optimistic about DC's filmmaking trajectory and accordingly hopeful that the Justice League movie wouldn't turn out to be as lame as the trailers suggested. *sighs* So much for that.

I think the best way to characterize the Justice League movie would be to say that it's basically Suicide Squad for DC's hero characters. Like in last year's Suicide Squad, this is a case of DC trying, and failing, to be Marvel instead of themselves. An extended "universe" of characters who team up, mostly forced attempts at humor strewn throughout (though a handful of the gags did land for me), etc., except with the bleak aesthetic that we've come to expect from DC (but which was not central to Wonder Woman, notably!) to distinguish it from Marvel's Avengers movies. I have two main issues here:

1) I dislike team hero movies. Their large number of protagonists renders any meaningful character development impossible and the result invariably is a thin plot and half or more of the film consisting of CGI-heavy action sequences that just don't interest me both because they have an excessively cartoony feel to me and also because they have no genuine emotional weight behind them. I feel the same way about Marvel's Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy films. I'm not a big fan of superhero movies in general for that matter, but I tend to find the origin stories to be the most enjoyable (or tolerable, as may apply). Why? Because that is where you're going to find the most character development going on almost invariably. Taking this summer's Wonder Woman movie (which I LOVED, in case you didn't notice!), for example, that movie was 80% story and character development and only about 20% fight scenes. Justice League seemed like it was mostly fight scenes. And worse, unconvincing ones.

AND...

2) DC is not as good at making team hero movies as Marvel. That's because they clearly don't want to. To make them is obviously just a marketing decision that they've made in order to try and be competitive with rival properties like The Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. The jokes largely feel forced and the dark aesthetic doesn't go with the light-hearted tone that Justice League and Suicide Squad both have sought to strike or with the cheesy, video gamey plot about collecting magical objects scattered across the world that this film features.

Other issues? Yeah, Superman gets resurrected. You knew that was coming, which is precisely what's wrong with that development. The critics talk about Gal Gadot's role as Wonder Woman as a minor saving grace, but I want to stress the "minor" part of that because Diana's role is fairly minimal in this story and, unlike in the Wonder Woman movie (but like Harley Quinn in Suicide Squad!), she is sexualized and a Smurfette type of character (the lone woman in a fairly large, otherwise all-male group). You can tell that this movie, unlike Wonder Woman, was directed by a man. That said, I did manage to develop a mild level of sympathy for Cyborg as a character, who has easily the most thought-out arc. But it's not nearly enough to save this movie. And incidentally, I hear that Cyborg's character arc was substantially revised by Joss Whedon late in production after the movie's initial director Zack Snyder was forced to abandon the project due to a death in his family, so, in other words...yeah the best aspects of Justice League appear to have been afterthoughts!

It's time for DC to get out of the business of team hero movies and focus on doing things that they are better at; things that they actually want to do. And after Watchmen, Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman, and this film, I think it safe to add that it is also time for Zack Snyder to stop directing movies period, especially in this genre.

Green Arrow
11-25-2017, 01:10 PM
DC’s problem for awhile is that they let Marvel set the market and now are trying to catch up. The problem here is this has caused them to rush things out and try too hard to BE Marvel. DC could make fantastic team movies if they wanted to. Imagine a Justice League Dark movie that they took their time making and only put it out when they were confident in the final product. It would have been a lesser known team (like when Marvel put out Guardians of the Galaxy) and the characters (Zatanna, Swamp Thing, Constantine, Doctor Fate, Deadman, Madame Xanadu, Amethyst, Nightmare Nurse, to name some options) all have fairly compelling personal stories and room for diversity.

Kalkin
11-25-2017, 01:20 PM
I found Justice League to be far superior to Wonder Woman. WW tried too hard and failed upon multiple fronts. JL was actually entertaining.

Peter1469
11-25-2017, 01:21 PM
The only time I end up watching movies based off comics is while I am on an airplane. Sort of a captive audience.

The Xl
11-25-2017, 01:25 PM
A 2 hour movie with that many protagonists is going to have a hard time with any level of character development.

IMPress Polly
11-25-2017, 01:36 PM
Green Arrow wrote:
DC’s problem for awhile is that they let Marvel set the market and now are trying to catch up. The problem here is this has caused them to rush things out and try too hard to BE Marvel. DC could make fantastic team movies if they wanted to. Imagine a Justice League Dark movie that they took their time making and only put it out when they were confident in the final product. It would have been a lesser known team (like when Marvel put out Guardians of the Galaxy) and the characters (Zatanna, Swamp Thing, Constantine, Doctor Fate, Deadman, Madame Xanadu, Amethyst, Nightmare Nurse, to name some options) all have fairly compelling personal stories and room for diversity.

While I'm sure you're right in that, were DC to take their time with a team hero movie, I'm sure they could better than what we've seen so far, the thing for me is that I would rather see a standalone movie about any one of those characters than I would a Justice League Dark film, personally. (Though I know exactly nothing about any of them.)

hanger4
11-25-2017, 01:50 PM
I'm sorry, I just find it mildly amusing that people seriously discuss/debate character development of a comic book super hero/ine.Don't be angry with me, movies, to me, are just another form of mindless entertainment.

The Xl
11-25-2017, 02:17 PM
I'm sorry, I just find it mildly amusing that people seriously discuss/debate character development of a comic book super hero/ine.Don't be angry with me, movies, to me, are just another form of mindless entertainment.

It all depends on your level of interest and investment in it, a casual won't care much, someone who is more hardcore will.

IMPress Polly
11-25-2017, 02:18 PM
The XL wrote:
A 2 hour movie with that many protagonists is going to have a hard time with any level of character development.

Yeah, probably right. In my observation, three major protagonists seems to be the maximum that movies can potentially pull off well, narratively speaking.


Hanger4 wrote:
I'm sorry, I just find it mildly amusing that people seriously discuss/debate character development of a comic book super hero/ine.Don't be angry with me, movies, to me, are just another form of mindless entertainment.

I have bolded the key phrase. :wink:

Standing Wolf
11-27-2017, 05:21 PM
Funny how some people come to The Geek Out Zone and feel the need to comment on the essential geekiness of the discussions there.

Sort of like going to that part of the forum dedicated to animals, in the middle of a thread talking about how great dogs are, and posting that you don't like dogs and have never owned one.

:rollseyes:

Standing Wolf
11-27-2017, 05:44 PM
Polly, after reading your review, I'd pretty much decided not to go see Justice League at the theatre...but after three days of just doing stuff around the house, I needed to get out and sit in a dark room and eat popcorn, so I went early on Sunday afternoon. Glad I did, as I really enjoyed the film.

No, it wasn't nearly as much fun as the first Avengers movie, but Marvel doesn't always hit the mark, either. (The second Thor film literally put me to sleep, and Dr. Strange was poorly put together.) The first half of Justice League was especially good, I thought; the battle on Themyscira was breathtaking, Bruce's meeting with Arthur Curry was amazing, and Wonder Woman was - oh, well, she just was! ("Minimal"? I thought she was in more scenes than any other character.) One of my favorite scenes was later in the film, when she uses her lasso on someone without their knowing it - THAT was funny!

The big final battle royale was dark and somewhat cartoony - it always is - but it was relatively brief compared with most movies of this type.

One surprise was the final "easter egg". There was a brief one about thirty seconds into the end credits, but then I figured that was it. I started to leave and realized that at least a dozen people were still seated, and I thought "They're just confused and think they're at a Marvel movie". I hung around anyway, just to be sure, and damned if there wasn't another egg at the very end, a la Marvel. Is this the first one they've done that with? I like it of course. I still laugh whenever I think of the shawarma scene from Avengers.

My bottom line: best DC superhero movie ever that didn't have Christian Bale in it.

Whoops, except for Wonder Woman, of course.

hanger4
11-27-2017, 06:30 PM
Funny how some people come to The Geek Out Zone and feel the need to comment on the essential geekiness of the discussions there. Sort of like going to that part of the forum dedicated to animals, in the middle of a thread talking about how great dogs are, and posting that you don't like dogs and have never owned one. :rollseyes::tougue:

Standing Wolf
11-27-2017, 07:36 PM
:tougue:


https://youtu.be/F8GP0rk83N8

IMPress Polly
11-27-2017, 08:26 PM
Standing Wolf wrote:
Polly, after reading your review, I'd pretty much decided not to go see Justice League at the theatre...but after three days of just doing stuff around the house, I needed to get out and sit in a dark room and eat popcorn, so I went early on Sunday afternoon. Glad I did, as I really enjoyed the film.

Yes well you also enjoyed this year's King Arthur film! :wink:

At this point I think it must be asked: have you ever seen an action movie you didn't like before? :tongue:

Standing Wolf
11-27-2017, 08:59 PM
Yes well you also enjoyed this year's King Arthur film! :wink:

Full disclosure, as an ardent Sons of Anarchy fan, I would pay money to watch Charlie Hunnam in just about anything.


At this point I think it must be asked: have you ever seen an action movie you didn't like before? :tongue:

In his book, Ron Perlman called Ice Pirates - a film he appeared in early in his career - "a piece of sh*t". He was being kind.

Kacper
11-27-2017, 09:30 PM
A 2 hour movie with that many protagonists is going to have a hard time with any level of character development.

Character development is going to always take back seat to merchandising in these type movies. The more characters, the more junk to sell.

Standing Wolf
11-27-2017, 10:32 PM
Character development is going to always take back seat to merchandising in these type movies. The more characters, the more junk to sell.

It's going to be interesting to see if they eventually bring a Green Lantern into the franchise. (I say a Green Lantern because I'm assuming the Ryan Reynolds version is not going to be returning any time soon.) The original '60s team also featured J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter; Cyborg didn't show up until the '80s, as a member of the Teen Titans, and didn't become a JLA'er until the 2011 DC Universe reboot.

Kacper
11-28-2017, 08:35 AM
It's going to be interesting to see if they eventually bring a Green Lantern into the franchise. (I say a Green Lantern because I'm assuming the Ryan Reynolds version is not going to be returning any time soon.) The original '60s team also featured J'onn J'onzz, the Martian Manhunter; Cyborg didn't show up until the '80s, as a member of the Teen Titans, and didn't become a JLA'er until the 2011 DC Universe reboot.

They already did with Yalan Gur in the history lesson

Standing Wolf
11-28-2017, 11:03 AM
They already did with Yalan Gur in the history lesson

Oh, that's right...I'd forgotten about those scenes. I meant, of course, bringing a Green Lantern into the screen JLA. You have to wonder whether they'll use the Hal Jordan or Kyle whatshisname (Raynor?) version. Not sure I like having Barry Allen turned into a geeky kid - obviously DC's Spiderman-equivalent.

Kacper
11-28-2017, 01:49 PM
Oh, that's right...I'd forgotten about those scenes. I meant, of course, bringing a Green Lantern into the screen JLA. You have to wonder whether they'll use the Hal Jordan or Kyle whatshisname (Raynor?) version. Not sure I like having Barry Allen turned into a geeky kid - obviously DC's Spiderman-equivalent.

As cheesy as Hollywood is these days they will bring back an evil descendant and make them a good guy afterall.