What does America give the world?

[Awryly]

Apart from Coca Cola and the various wars it likes to entertain us with through Hollywood re-re-re-depictions?

There must be something.

[Captain Obvious]

Why does the world expect the US to "give" to them?

[GrassrootsConservative]

What does New Zealand give the world besides laughter as you continue to sexually violate all your native animals including but not limited to your vast population of sheep?

Is that the only species you dominate? Even the Australians have more to offer than you do, and the Croc Hunter has been dead for quite some time now.

You ramrodders have never even hosted the Olympic Games, probably due to the fact that you lack the infrastructure to do so. Have you repaired all your shanties after the Christchurch earthquake yet, goatfucker?

[Peter1469]

America's greatest gift was the concept of federalism and limited powers at the federal level.

[Awryly]

America's greatest gift was the concept of federalism and limited powers at the federal level.

Oookkaaaaaay.


According to a 2012 study published in the New York University Law Review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_University_Law_Review), however, the influence of the U.S. Constitution may be waning. The study examined more than 700 federal constitutions from nearly 200 countries. "Rather than leading the way for global constitutionalism, the U.S. Constitution appears instead to be losing its appeal as a model for constitutional drafters elsewhere,” the researchers write. “The idea of adopting a constitution may still trace its inspiration to the United States, but the manner in which constitutions are written increasingly does not."[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence #cite_note-jr-diusc-11)[8]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence #cite_note-diusc-12)In particular, the study found that the U.S. Constitution guarantees relatively few rights compared to the constitutions of other countries and contains less than half (26 of 60) of the provisions listed in the average bill of rights. It is also one of the few in the world today that still features the right to bear arms; the only others are the constitutions of Guatemala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala) and Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico). Overall, the research suggests that the Constitution of Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada), revised in 1982, is now a leading international model rather than that of the United States.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence #cite_note-jr-diusc-11)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence #cite_note-diusc-12)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence

And, of the rights it does give, the Patriot Act and NDAA takes away.

[Peter1469]

Oookkaaaaaay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence

And, of the rights it does give, the Patriot Act and NDAA takes away.

That just illustrates that you, and most Americans today (including those in Government), don't understand the meaning of the word federalism.

[Awryly]

That just illustrates that you, and most Americans today (including those in Government), don't understand the meaning of the word federalism.

Well, hadn't you better start to spread the word?

What is it, BTW?

[Awryly]

Oookkaaaaaay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution_and_worldwide_influence

And, of the rights it does give, the Patriot Act and NDAA takes away.

I've always thought there is vast humour in the name Patriot act.

I take it that when an American tries to exercise what constitutional rights they have, missiles rise from the ground to shoot them down.

[Chris]

I've always thought there is vast humour in the name Patriot act.

I take it that when an American tries to exercise what constitutional rights they have, missiles rise from the ground to shoot them down.

Talking to yourself again?

Patriot Act is indeed a misnomer.

But "when an American tries to exercise what constitutional rights they have" shows you really don't understand rights or America(ns) or federalism. Oh, you do? Then, please, cite the Constitution where is grants Americans rights.

[hanger4]

I've always thought there is vast humour in the name Patriot act.

I take it that when an American tries to exercise what constitutional rights they have, missiles rise from the ground to shoot them down.

Refresh my memory Awryly, what rights have I (US citizen) lost "in the name Patriot act" ??

[Awryly]

How about this?


Section 215, ... allows the government to seize “any tangible thing” without a warrant, from e-mails to browsing histories to library records.

...from anyone the Gestapo considers to be counter-Gestapo.

[Chris]

Still waiting for that line in the US Constitution that grants us rights, awryly.

[Peter1469]

Well, hadn't you better start to spread the word?

What is it, BTW?

The concept that most government power should be local. That the federal government only has limited enumerated powers and should butt out of anything not on that list.

[Chris]

Federalism is distributed control, distributed to the states or to the people, the opposite of socialist central planning.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[Awryly]

Still waiting for that line in the US Constitution that grants us rights, awryly.

What's that bit that's called the Bill of Rights?

Or is it the Bill of Rites? Please tip.

[Awryly]

Federalism is distributed control, distributed to the states or to the people, the opposite of socialist central planning.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Jeez. Is that all? Just the states this, states that mantra?

I see you are having fun with the pot laws by cocking your sundry bongs at the federal government.

[hanger4]

How about this?



...from anyone the Gestapo considers to be counter-Gestapo.


The FBI has to apply for permission to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) so technically it is a warrant irregardless of what some blogger has told you.

[Awryly]

The FBI has to apply for permission to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) so technically it is a warrant irregardless of what some blogger has told you.

You mean this blogger guy?


Jeffrey Rosen is a professor of law at The George Washington University and the legal affairs editor of The New Republic. His most recent book is The Supreme Court: The Personalities and Rivalries that Defined America. He also is the author of The Most Democratic Branch, The Naked Crowd, and The Unwanted Gaze. Rosen is a graduate of Harvard College, summa cum laude; Oxford University, where he was a Marshall Scholar; and Yale Law School.
http://www.law.gwu.edu/faculty/profile.aspx?id=1763

[hanger4]

You mean this blogger guy?


http://www.law.gwu.edu/faculty/profile.aspx?id=1763

And where in his bio does he refute what I said and go all Gestapo or some such BS.

[Chris]

What's that bit that's called the Bill of Rights?

Or is it the Bill of Rites? Please tip.

Can you cite one then that grants the people rights?

[Chris]

Jeez. Is that all? Just the states this, states that mantra?

I see you are having fun with the pot laws by cocking your sundry bongs at the federal government.

The words of a blowhard. You asked for a definition of federalism. Was that request disingenuous?

[Awryly]

The words of a blowhard. You asked for a definition of federalism. Was that request disingenuous?

So the best America has to offer is abuse. In relation to a supposed gift no-one, least of all Americans, knows anything about.

Someone tell me Cary Grant. Oops, he was English. And he's in the past. Very passed.

[Chris]

So the best America has to offer is abuse. In relation to a supposed gift no-one, least of all Americans, knows anything about.

Someone tell me Cary Grant. Oops, he was English. And he's in the past. Very passed.

And there you go playing dodge ball again. How disingenuous. When are you going to cite the lines of the Constitution that grant rights, awryly? What, do you need a link?

[Awryly]

And there you go playing dodge ball again. How disingenuous. When are you going to cite the lines of the Constitution that grant rights, awryly? What, do you need a link?

Keep up, sunshine.



What's that bit that's called the Bill of Rights?

Or is it the Bill of Rites? Please tip.

[Chris]

What's that bit that's called the Bill of Rights?

Or is it the Bill of Rites? Please tip.

Can you cite one then that grants the people rights?

Bump, sunshine, keep up will ya. When are you going to cite the Constitution where it grants rights?

[Mister D]

Keep up, sunshine.

It appears he is well ahead of you, sunshine. That happens a lot. :smiley:

[Awryly]

Personally I prefer FDR's second bill of rights.

It doesn't have guns in it.

No right to bear harm.

[Chris]

Personally I prefer FDR's second bill of rights.

It doesn't have guns in it.

No right to bear harm.

Dancing and dodging.

[Awryly]

Dancing and dodging.

So, extend yourself. What has the US given to the world that does not include a duty to love, honour and obey the US?

[Chris]

So, extend yourself. What has the US given to the world that does not include a duty to love, honour and obey the US?

That's already been answered, federalism. Round and round we go, doing the awryly dance.

[Awryly]

That's already been answered, federalism. Round and round we go, doing the awryly dance.

But, ho! Most forms of what you call "federalism" - aka states rights - are already far in advance of anything the US produced.

And some countries - NZ, the UK, France, most Scandinavian countries, and the Swiss (who came up with a federal model centuries before the Americans did) - gave the US system a big, and thankful, pass.

Even the Australians came up with a federal system largely on their own. Which is something of an achievement for Australians.

Try something else.

[Peter1469]

What's that bit that's called the Bill of Rights?

Or is it the Bill of Rites? Please tip.


The Bill of Rights outlines protections of citizens. It does not add to the powers of the government.

Many founders argued against the Bill of Rights as unnecessary. They argued that future ass-hats would claim that these protections were provided by the government and could be removed by the government. When in fact, they were natural rights.

I think that they were right.

[Awryly]

The Bill of Rights outlines protections of citizens. It does not add to the powers of the government.

Many founders argued against the Bill of Rights as unnecessary. They argued that future ass-hats would claim that these protections were provided by the government and could be removed by the government. When in fact, they were natural rights.

I think that they were right.

Good thinking. Leave the protection of rights to armed militia and the Tea Party.

[Peter1469]

Good thinking. Leave the protection of rights to armed militia and the Tea Party.

You don't understand federalism. You don't understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. What a surprise.

You really need a central government to micromanage your life. You wouldn't get by without constant monitoring.

[Awryly]

You don't understand federalism. You don't understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. What a surprise.

You really need a central government to micromanage your life. You wouldn't get by without constant monitoring.

The only surprise is that you don't seem to know either.

Or you would have explained it by now.

[Peter1469]

Asked and answered.

[Chris]

But, ho! Most forms of what you call "federalism" - aka states rights - are already far in advance of anything the US produced.

And some countries - NZ, the UK, France, most Scandinavian countries, and the Swiss (who came up with a federal model centuries before the Americans did) - gave the US system a big, and thankful, pass.

Even the Australians came up with a federal system largely on their own. Which is something of an achievement for Australians.

Try something else.

Let's look at NZ:


...New Zealand is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democracy,[56] although its constitution is not codified.[57] Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of New Zealand and the head of state....

The early European settlers divided New Zealand into provinces, which had a degree of autonomy.[111] Because of financial pressures and the desire to consolidate railways, education, land sales and other policies, government was centralised and the provinces were abolished in 1876.[112] As a result, New Zealand now has no separately represented subnational entities. The provinces are remembered in regional public holidays[113] and sporting rivalries....

That's not federalism, awryly.

[Mister D]

The UK and France are not federalist states. Neither are the Scandinavian countries. Their central governments are very strong ones.

[Chris]

Which leaves the Swiss, who do have a federalist government albeit with direct democracy. This current form of government was not instituted until after the US had established federalism:


The rise of Switzerland as a federal state began on September 12, 1848, with the creation of a federal constitution....

@ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_as_a_federal_state

Unless you want to consider the Swiss confederacy that goes back to the 1200s.


A comparison of Swiss and US federalism could be an interesting topic for discussion. But I doubt awryly is really interested in that.

[Mister D]

There we are then. :smiley:

[Mister D]

Germany could also be considered a federalist state but that goes back to the founding of the Second Reich in the 1870s.

[Awryly]

Let's look at NZ:



That's not federalism, awryly.

Really. We are making progress.

So far, all I have taken out of all of this is the federalism describes any constitutional arrangement where central and states governments co-exist in some form of regulated system.

That describes governments from Canada to Argentina.

[Chris]

Really. We are making progress.

So far, all I have taken out of all of this is the federalism describes any constitutional arrangement where central and states governments co-exist in some form of regulated system.

I think you still miss the point. In a federalist system the central federal government derives its power from the states and/or the people--ultimately the people. The Swiss have a federalist system, but, compared to the US with intervening states and representatives, its power comes democratically directly from the people.

Consider your misunderstanding of the Constitution granting rights to the people: It's the other way around, the people in their natural rights grant limited powers to the federal government--"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

[Awryly]

I think you still miss the point. In a federalist system the central federal government derives its power from the states and/or the people--ultimately the people. The Swiss have a federalist system, but, compared to the US with intervening states and representatives, its power comes democratically directly from the people.

Consider your misunderstanding of the Constitution granting rights to the people: It's the other way around, the people in their natural rights grant limited powers to the federal government--"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Well, if you want to believe in a modern fiction that may have been true in 1796, who am I to disillusion you.

[Chris]

Well, if you want to believe in a modern fiction that may have been true in 1796, who am I to disillusion you.

If you don't want to discuss this intelligently, don't. But your pretending to be interested and then following up with insulting non sequitur is disingenuous. Violating the ethics of discourse can only come out badly for you in the long run.

[Awryly]

If you don't want to discuss this intelligently, don't. But your pretending to be interested and then following up with insulting non sequitur is disingenuous. Violating the ethics of discourse can only come out badly for you in the long run.

No point. You are an ideologue.

What else has America given the world?

[Mister D]

No point. You are an ideologue.

What else has America given the world?

What is his ideology?

[Chris]

No point. You are an ideologue.

What else has America given the world?

And you are a troll.

[Awryly]

And you are a troll.

Only because I disagree with you and think you a fool.

Now come along. What else has America given the world apart from local government on steroids?

[Chris]

Only because I disagree with you and think you a fool.

Now come along. What else has America given the world apart from local government on steroids?

You haven't said anything in disagreement. All you do is voice your approval or disapproval, the voice of a nobody, who has nothing to contribute. Good night, awryly, troll someone else.

[Awryly]

You haven't said anything in disagreement. All you do is voice your approval or disapproval, the voice of a nobody, who has nothing to contribute. Good night, awryly, troll someone else.

It may have escaped your notice, but this is my thread.

I can't troll myself. Only others can do that. :kiss: