Russia still at it!!

[AZ Jim]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections. This article contains many links to the evidence. Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-attack-intel-chiefs-say-russia-targets-midterm-election-170100777.html

[MMC]

Uhm, Russia hasn't ever stopped meddling in our elections. They have been doing it since the 50s. You should know this Jim.

[Grokmaster]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections. This article contains many links to the evidence. Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-attack-intel-chiefs-say-russia-targets-midterm-election-170100777.html

So the rest of the Vaunted Obama Swamp Seventeen Intel Agencies of leftist mythology bailed?

Apparently , allowing Putin 20% of our uranium reserves didn't do the trick, huh? That and doing nothing while Putin ran wild...after all the promised "flexibility"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

[AZ Jim]

^^fail^^

[MMC]

So the rest of the Vaunted Obama Swamp Seventeen Intel Agencies of leftist mythology bailed?

Apparently , allowing Putin 20% of our uranium reserves didn't do the trick, huh? That and doing nothing while Putin ran wild...after all the promised "flexibility"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

Democrats always accuse others of exactly what they are doing. Always!

[Max Rockatansky]

Uhm, Russia hasn't ever stopped meddling in our elections. They have been doing it since the 50s. You should know this Jim.
True, but there's a difference between overt Soviet propaganda and cyber-warfare, hacking and subterfuge.

[Peter1469]

Should be use to it by now. They have been doing it since the end of WWII.

[MisterVeritis]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections. This article contains many links to the evidence. Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-attack-intel-chiefs-say-russia-targets-midterm-election-170100777.html
Which elections are the Russians interfering with?

[Max Rockatansky]

Democrats always accuse others of exactly what they are doing. Always!
An excellent point that applies to the far Right as well. Liars think others are lying to them, cheaters think they are being cheated and thieves think they are being robbed.

Puts an entirely new spin on the "fake news" meme, eh? http://oi58.tinypic.com/lb8kk.jpg

[MMC]

True, but there's a difference between overt Soviet propaganda and cyber-warfare, hacking and subterfuge.


Well Team Obama should have thought about that when they allowed the Russians to breach the WH, the Pentagon, the State Dept, our Top Russian Counter Intel official, the DNC, and Hillary's Campaign.

The Demos as a Party are compromised. So to the Neo Cons.


The leftness just can't figure out that Putin and his boys were trying to undermine Western Democracies.

[Max Rockatansky]

Well Team Obama should have thought about that when they allowed the Russians to breach the WH, the Pentagon, the State Dept, our Top Russian Counter Intel official, the DNC, and Hillary's Campaign.

The Demos as a Party are compromised. So to the Neo Cons.


The leftness just can't figure out that Putin and his boys were trying to undermine Western Democracies.
Agreed. That peace, love, dove crap doesn't work with the Russians. The Obama administration screwed up.

[Max Rockatansky]

Which elections are the Russians interfering with?
US national for certain. They'd be smart to try it with state ones too.

[Ethereal]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections.

Top level bureaucrats in US intelligence agencies are about as trustworthy as a fox in a hen-house. I am stunned that there are still people who take their words at face value.


This article contains many links to the evidence.

I see lots of allegations, but no actual evidence. I've been asking the proponents of "Russian interference" to give me ONE concrete FACT that proves or at least tends to prove their allegations. But the only thing they can produce are more allegations made by the same sector of government that gave us "weapons of mass destruction". It's nothing but a big circular jerk of people making allegations and then using more allegations to back up their original allegations.


Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

Many press outlets are responsible for spreading fake news. It's been proven several times.

[Ethereal]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2007/11/18/books/dickey-450.jpg

US "intelligence", Exhibit A

[Ethereal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGYn7ER5U_0

US "intelligence", Exhibit B

[Ethereal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLeh7LKHBts

US "intelligence", Exhibit C

[Max Rockatansky]

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2007/11/18/books/dickey-450.jpg

US "intelligence", Exhibit AFound that on a Russian Facebook page?

Several things wrong with that meme;
1) The Bush administration took intelligence data and interpreted it. While the whole "Bush lied" meme is a lie itself, the fact remains they seemed to be looking for reasons to invade Iraq.

2) I have complete faith in the integrity of Powell. He was the largest voice of reason in the Bush administration, but I think Cheney and Rumsfeld beat him down. While I think he believed his testimony to the UN, obviously the entire concept was flawed.

3) Intelligence failures are out there for all to see, but intelligence successes are rarely known for what should be obvious reasons. Ergo, it's stupid to just assume our intelligence services are incompetent.

[Ethereal]

(The Guardian) CIA admits to spying on Senate staffers (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/cia-admits-spying-senate-staffers)

[Ethereal]

Found that on a Russian Facebook page?

Several things wrong with that meme;

1) The Bush administration took intelligence data and interpreted it. While the whole "Bush lied" meme is a lie itself, the fact remains they seemed to be looking for reasons to invade Iraq.

2) I have complete faith in the integrity of Powell. He was the largest voice of reason in the Bush administration, but I think Cheney and Rumsfeld beat him down. While I think he believed his testimony to the UN, obviously the entire concept was flawed.

3) Intelligence failures are out there for all to see, but intelligence successes are rarely known for what should be obvious reasons. Ergo, it's stupid to just assume our intelligence services are incompetent.

It's not really a "meme", it's just a well-known picture of Colin Powell disseminating propaganda and misinformation to the international community on behalf of the criminal Bush regime.

US "intelligence" has been spreading misinformation and propaganda for decades. They are not credible among reasonable people. Any allegations or claims made by US "intelligence" should be met with a massive amount of skepticism.

[Max Rockatansky]

It's not really a "meme", .....
Incorrect. It's a meme as displayed by your comment "US "intelligence", Exhibit A".

[Peter1469]

Understanding the source, this is a pretty good article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/02/13/when-we-talk-about-russian-meddling-what-do-we-actually-mean/?utm_term=.961928bb10f1)about Russian interference in US politics.

Skip to below the first graphic to get to intelligent commentary.


Part of this response, it seems, stems from a lack of clarity around what “meddling” means in the context of Russia’s electoral activity. It seems to be true that Russia didn’t directly affect vote totals in 2016 — more on this below — but instead interfered or tried to interfere in a number of other ways. It seems clear, too, that this effort is ongoing.

So let’s take a step back. When we talk about Russian meddling, what are we talking about?
What were its effects? When did it begin?


There are at least four ways in which Russians are known or believed to have tried to influence the election.

[Ethereal]

https://image.prntscr.com/image/yJq1CXc1TfuCdTpEe2zfeA.png

[Ethereal]

Incorrect. It's a meme as displayed by your comment "US "intelligence", Exhibit A".

Call it whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact of what it represents: Deliberate dishonesty and fraud coming straight from US "intelligence"

[MisterVeritis]

US national for certain. They'd be smart to try it with state ones too.
There is only one national election I am aware of. Even that election, the Presidential election, is run by individual states. So which election?

[Captdon]

Found that on a Russian Facebook page?

Several things wrong with that meme;
1) The Bush administration took intelligence data and interpreted it. While the whole "Bush lied" meme is a lie itself, the fact remains they seemed to be looking for reasons to invade Iraq.

2) I have complete faith in the integrity of Powell. He was the largest voice of reason in the Bush administration, but I think Cheney and Rumsfeld beat him down. While I think he believed his testimony to the UN, obviously the entire concept was flawed.

3) Intelligence failures are out there for all to see, but intelligence successes are rarely known for what should be obvious reasons. Ergo, it's stupid to just assume our intelligence services are incompetent.

Powell was a hack. He was a political general and well known for it. He had exactly one command in his years in the Army. He was a yes man from day one. No one had to beat him into anything. You don't have to beat putty.

[MMC]

Call it whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact of what it represents: Deliberate dishonesty and fraud coming straight from US "intelligence"


And what other Intelligence agency is all about Honesty and forthrighteousness. Oh yeah.....not one.

[Ethereal]

(The New York Times) The CIA Drug Connection Is as Old as the Agency (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/03/opinion/03iht-edlarry.html)

[Captdon]

There is only one national election I am aware of. Even that election, the Presidential election, is run by individual states. So which election?

They released e-mails by the Dems. Meddling is meddling. That it works or doesn't means nothing. They have meddled before and will again.

The truth is we can't stop them without shutting down the internet from other countries. Free speech and all that.

[MisterVeritis]

They released e-mails by the Dems. Meddling is meddling. That it works or doesn't means nothing. They have meddled before and will again.

The truth is we can't stop them without shutting down the internet from other countries. Free speech and all that.
Who released emails by the Dems?

What emails?

[Max Rockatansky]

Call it whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact of what it represents: Deliberate dishonesty and fraud coming straight from US "intelligence"

Hence why it's a meme just like I said in the first place.

[Max Rockatansky]

Powell was a hack. He was a political general and well known for it. He had exactly one command in his years in the Army. He was a yes man from day one. No one had to beat him into anything. You don't have to beat putty.
Disagreed on all points except he was more of a political general than most. Still, since our generals have civilian commanders and a civilian Congress funding the military, "political generals" are necessary.

[Common]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections. This article contains many links to the evidence. Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-attack-intel-chiefs-say-russia-targets-midterm-election-170100777.html
Blame obama he allowed them to dig in for 8 yrs

[Mister D]

True, but there's a difference between overt Soviet propaganda and cyber-warfare, hacking and subterfuge.

Yeah, the means of dissemination have changed. First of all anyone who thinks people voted for Trump because of Russian Facebook ads is a fucking idiot. Secondly, teh US has been meddling in elections all over the world since 1945. The world is laughing at our outrage.

[The Xl]

US intelligence deliberately lying for political purposes would be nothing new.

[The Xl]

Yeah, the means of dissemination have changed. First of all anyone who thinks people voted for Trump because of Russian Facebook ads is a fucking idiot. Secondly, teh US has been meddling in elections all over the world since 1945. The world is laughing at our outrage.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so absurd.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah, the means of dissemination have changed. First of all anyone who thinks people voted for Trump because of Russian Facebook ads is a fucking idiot. Secondly, teh US has been meddling in elections all over the world since 1945. The world is laughing at our outrage.
1) Agreed the tactics have changed.
2) The Russian attempts can be divided into two things; their attempt and the results. The fact they attempted it is an act of war. The Left wants to conflate their actions with Hillary's loss and that is wrong. Hillary was corrupt, many people knew it on both sides of the aisle and only Hillary fans are sad to see her gone.
3) Whataboutism is a good tactic for the Russians. The logic is, Russia can nuke a city because the United States did it too.

[Max Rockatansky]

US intelligence deliberately lying for political purposes would be nothing new.
That's part of their job as long as it is in the interests of the United States.

[Mister D]

1) Agreed the tactics have changed.
2) The Russian attempts can be divided into two things; their attempt and the results. The fact they attempted it is an act of war. The Left wants to conflate their actions with Hillary's loss and that is wrong. Hillary was corrupt, many people knew it on both sides of the aisle and only Hillary fans are sad to see her gone.
3) Whataboutism is a good tactic for the Russians. The logic is, Russia can nuke a city because the United States did it too.
An act of war? Seriously? What exactly do you suggest we do? Hopefully, you suggest we do nothing because Russian interference was as silly as the reaction to it.

US outrage is downright laughable. I don't care about Russian interference. It's meaningless. This is par for the course. Get used to it. The US government has been engaging in this sort of behavior for your entire life.

Last, I suspect you think it's different when we do it. Is that so?

[Mister D]

It would be laughable if it wasn't so absurd.
It's amazing how naive some Americans become after they lose an election.

[MisterVeritis]

1) Agreed the tactics have changed.
2) The Russian attempts can be divided into two things; their attempt and the results. The fact they attempted it is an act of war. The Left wants to conflate their actions with Hillary's loss and that is wrong. Hillary was corrupt, many people knew it on both sides of the aisle and only Hillary fans are sad to see her gone.
3) Whataboutism is a good tactic for the Russians. The logic is, Russia can nuke a city because the United States did it too.
This makes me smile. We are a nation of buffoons.

[Max Rockatansky]

An act of war? Seriously? What exactly do you suggest we do? Hopefully, you suggest we do nothing because Russian interference was as silly as the reaction to it.
US outrage is downright laughable. I don't care about Russian interference. It's meaningless. This is par for the course. Get used to it. The US government has been engaging in this sort of behavior for your entire life.
Last, I suspect you think it's different when we do it. Is that so?Yes. Yes. Increase our defenses, vigilance and counter-attack in a like manner. Your defense of the Russians is interesting.

Disagreed. Obviously. Of course, that's what the Russians would want us to do. Again, whataboutism.

No, I don't. OTOH, I do think that people who bring up US actions during the Cold War but never, ever say a bad word about the USSR and the PRC, are communist sympathizers or lackeys.

[Max Rockatansky]

This makes me smile. We are a nation of buffoons.
As proved by our leadership. You should Tweet that. ;)

[MisterVeritis]

As proved by our leadership. You should Tweet that. ;)
I grow weary. Where do you really obtuse people come from? Is there some nest somewhere?

[Max Rockatansky]

I grow weary. Where do you really obtuse people come from? Is there some nest somewhere?
Translation: You Americans are a pain in the ass. When will you learn that the Soviet Union Mother Russia is superior to your little experiment in democracy?

Drink more vodka, tovarich. You're going to need it.

[MisterVeritis]

Translation: You Americans are a pain in the ass. When will you learn that the Soviet Union Mother Russia is superior to your little experiment in democracy?

Drink more vodka, tovarich. You're going to need it.
Kook alert.

[MMC]

Incorrect. It's a meme as displayed by your comment "US "intelligence", Exhibit A".

Meh, Ethereal has been dumping on the US for years. Despite the fact that he served. He thinks were suppose to be perfect and so Righteous that we should allow others to roll over our allies and our own people.

Break out the celebration when you see his ass stick up for the US. Oh and let me know too.

[Cannons Front]

True, but there's a difference between overt Soviet propaganda and cyber-warfare, hacking and subterfuge.

Not really, the goal is the same, the tech has changed. Along with the fact that Russia did not hack the election, the only thing that has been shown is that they used propaganda to try to influence opinions. The DNC hack has not been traced to the Russians because the DNC would not let it be investigated. John Podesta emails were not Hacked really, he was a "victim" of Phishing, in other words he opened the door and invited the attacker in, again not tracked to Russians, although they have been accused of it.

No election equipment has been compromised, no votes changed, no vote tallies adjusted, therefore it is simple, the election was not hacked, the American people voted and elected Trump.

[Ethereal]

US intelligence deliberately lying for political purposes would be nothing new.
That will never sway the mindless idiots who worship the government and the national security state in particular.

They have been brainwashed into believing that "patriotism" means exercising slavish obedience and deference to the habitual liars in government.

[Ethereal]

Your defense of the Russians is interesting.

Your defense of the habitual liars in government is even more interesting.


Disagreed. Obviously. Of course, that's what the Russians would want us to do. Again, whataboutism.

The US government and its apologists are hypocritical phonies. Literally everything they accuse the Russians of doing, they are guilty of themselves a thousand times over.

Aggression against other countries? Check.

Interfering in the political processes of other countries? Check.

Corruption and abuse of power? Check.

Spreading propaganda. Check.


I do think that people who bring up US actions during the Cold War but never, ever say a bad word about the USSR and the PRC, are communist sympathizers or lackeys.

Government apologists like you have far more in common with the commies than we do. You would have made a fine Soviet.

[Ethereal]

Translation: You Americans are a pain in the ass. When will you learn that the Soviet Union Mother Russia is superior to your little experiment in democracy?

Drink more vodka, tovarich. You're going to need it.
You know Max has reached his intellectual limit when he starts accusing you of being a Russian.

[Ethereal]

Meh, Ethereal has been dumping on the US for years. Despite the fact that he served. He thinks were suppose to be perfect and so Righteous that we should allow others to roll over our allies and our own people.

Break out the celebration when you see his ass stick up for the US. Oh and let me know too.

The US government oversees an empire of lies, corruption, and hypocrisy. Why would I show them anything other than disdain?

[MMC]

Kook alert.

Well that does define those that always talk shit about the US.

[MMC]

The US government oversees an empire of lies, corruption, and hypocrisy. Why would I show them anything other than disdain?


Because you don't have the capacity to figure out what the US does that is good. Which is why you never talk about what they do that is good. I wouldn't expect you to show anything but disdain, disrespect, and a hatred for the US.

Oh and just because you served. Don't mean much. I know plenty that joined that just needed a job. Did their little time and moved on real quick like.

[Ethereal]

Because you don't have the capacity to figure out what the US does that is good. Which is why you never talk about what they do that is good. I wouldn't expect you to show anything but disdain, disrespect, and a hatred for the US.

Oh and just because you served. Don't mean much. I know plenty that joined that just needed a job. Did their little time and moved on real quick like.
The US is a decaying empire, much like western Rome was near the end of its hegemony. Like many Americans, you choose to live in denial and cling to comforting mythologies about the nobility of the empire's machinations. I won't waste my time trying to disabuse you of these soothing notions. People in your age group are, generally speaking, hopeless. It's on the younger generations to make things right.

[MMC]

The US is a decaying empire, much like western Rome was near the end of its hegemony. Like many Americans, you choose to live in denial and cling to comforting mythologies about the nobility of the empire's machinations. I won't waste my time trying to disabuse you of these soothing notions. People in your age group are, generally speaking, hopeless. It's on the younger generations to make things right.


Yeah the US is decaying give or take another 100- 150 years. What your kind can't figure out is. All empires do come to an ending. That's how it was set up for mankind.

Oh its not just nobility. Of course you don't have enough smart powers to know what it takes to run an empire and certainly not one off the capitalistic model.


So there is no way in this life or any other that you can disabuse me. While you play checkers.....I'm playing 9D chess. Reading a book, Watching a movie, and still cleaning shit up around the house. Oh and posting on a couple of political sites. Dealing with your kind and those Globalists. Along with the enemy from within. That you barely notice.


Question....Did you talk all that anti US bullshit when you were in the field?

[Ethereal]

Yeah the US is decaying give or take another 100- 150 years. What your kind can't figure out is. All empires do come to an ending. That's how it was set up for mankind.

The inevitable collapse of empire is precisely why I oppose them. It's why the founders established a republic instead of an empire, because they wanted a system of government that would actually last.


Oh its not just nobility. Of course you don't have enough smart powers to know what it takes to run an empire and certainly not one off the capitalistic model.

I know exactly what it takes: Corruption, hypocrisy, and an endless supply of lies.


So there is no way in this life or any other that you can disabuse me. While you play checkers.....I'm playing 9D chess. Reading a book, Watching a movie, and still cleaning $#@! up around the house. Oh and posting on a couple of political sites. Dealing with your kind and those Globalists. Along with the enemy from within. That you barely notice.

The globalists love guys like you. The US empire is their creation and their most prized possession.


Question....Did you talk all that anti US bull$#@! when you were in the field?

Define "anti-US".

[MMC]

The inevitable collapse of empire is precisely why I oppose them. It's why the founders established a republic instead of an empire, because they wanted a system of government that would actually last.


Yet you haven't figured out that NO Republic would last forever. That no System of government can last forever.



I know exactly what it takes: Corruption, hypocrisy, and an endless supply of lies.

Obviously you don't know.....that why you missed alliances, doing whats Right, telling some truths, giving out facts, building strengths, and setting examples.

The globalists love guys like you. The US empire is their creation and their most prized possession.


Well they certainly don't luv me.....as I give them the blues. Kinda like I do with the political left. If there is one thing they hate more than Trump. Its me.



Define "anti-US".



Anti-Americanism


Anti-Americanism, anti-American sentiment, or sometimes Americanophobia,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-1) is dislike of or opposition to the governmental policies of the United States, especially regarding the foreign policy, or the American people in general.

French scholar Marie-France Toinet says use of the term anti-Americanism "is only fully justified if it implies systematic opposition – a sort of allergic reaction – to America as a whole".


Negative views of the United States are generally strongest in the Muslim world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world), China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China), former Soviet countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Soviet_states), certain European nations,[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-Pew_Research_Center_Poll-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-bbcpoll-7) and North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea), and weakest in Sub-Saharan Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa) and most parts of Southeast Asia

In the online Oxford Dictionary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Dictionary) the term "anti-American" is defined as "hostile to the interests of the United States".[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-8)


In the first edition of Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster's_Dictionary) (1828) the term "anti-American" was defined as "opposed to America, or to the true interests or government of the United States; opposed to the revolution in America".[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-9) In France the use of the noun form 'antiaméricanisme' has been catalogued from 1948,[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-10) entering ordinary political language in the 1950s.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-11)


Interpretations of anti-Americanism have often been polarized. Anti-Americanism has been described by Hungarian-born American sociologist Paul Hollander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hollander) as "a relentless critical impulse toward American social, economic, and political institutions, traditions, and values.


The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships... Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet". That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-21)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism


That which you do.....did you need more defining?

[Ethereal]

Anti-Americanism

Yes, you are very anti-American. But there is no need to self-identify like that. Your disdain for America's founding ideals is apparent.


Anti-Americanism, anti-American sentiment, or sometimes Americanophobia,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-1) is dislike of or opposition to the governmental policies of the United States, especially regarding the foreign policy, or the American people in general.

French scholar Marie-France Toinet says use of the term anti-Americanism "is only fully justified if it implies systematic opposition – a sort of allergic reaction – to America as a whole".


Negative views of the United States are generally strongest in the Muslim world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world), China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China), former Soviet countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Soviet_states), certain European nations,[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-Pew_Research_Center_Poll-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-bbcpoll-7) and North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea), and weakest in Sub-Saharan Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa) and most parts of Southeast Asia

In the online Oxford Dictionary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Dictionary) the term "anti-American" is defined as "hostile to the interests of the United States".[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-8)


In the first edition of Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster's_Dictionary) (1828) the term "anti-American" was defined as "opposed to America, or to the true interests or government of the United States; opposed to the revolution in America".[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-9) In France the use of the noun form 'antiaméricanisme' has been catalogued from 1948,[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-10) entering ordinary political language in the 1950s.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-11)


Interpretations of anti-Americanism have often been polarized. Anti-Americanism has been described by Hungarian-born American sociologist Paul Hollander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hollander) as "a relentless critical impulse toward American social, economic, and political institutions, traditions, and values.


The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships... Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet". That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture. In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism#cite_note-21)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism


That which you do.....did you need more defining?

This definition is asinine.

Opposition to US government policy is not "anti-Americanism". In fact, equating society with government is one of the most anti-American things I can think of. Thomas Paine, founding father and author of Common Sense, made a clear distinction between society and government, a distinction that ALL the founders asserted aggressively in their fight for independence.


Some writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins.
--Thomas Paine

Yes, you truly are anti-American.

P.S. - If you want me to respond to your points, then you need to learn how to properly format your posts. Maybe worry less about coloring and bolding your text and more about simple but effective communication.

[Ethereal]

If being opposed to US government policy makes one anti-American, then anyone who opposes any government policy is anti-American, which would include everyone on this forum.

Yes, your definition is exceedingly asinine. It's a wonder you did not see that right away.

[Cannons Front]

The US is a decaying empire, much like western Rome was near the end of its hegemony. Like many Americans, you choose to live in denial and cling to comforting mythologies about the nobility of the empire's machinations. I won't waste my time trying to disabuse you of these soothing notions. People in your age group are, generally speaking, hopeless. It's on the younger generations to make things right.
The warped way the younger generation is coming out of the education system leaves little hope that they can make things right......

[MMC]

Yes, you are very anti-American. But there is no need to self-identify like that. Your disdain for America's founding ideals is apparent.





This definition is asinine.

Opposition to US government policy is not "anti-Americanism". In fact, equating society with government is one of the most anti-American things I can think of. Thomas Paine, founding father and author of Common Sense, made a clear distinction between society and government, a distinction that ALL the founders asserted aggressively in their fight for independence.



Yes, you truly are anti-American.

P.S. - If you want me to respond to your points, then you need to learn how to properly format your posts. Maybe worry less about coloring and bolding your text and more about simple but effective communication.

No the definition is not asinine. Explains you out very well.


Anti-Americanism has been described by Hungarian-born American sociologist Paul Hollander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hollander) as "a relentless critical impulse toward American social, economic, and political institutions, traditions, and values......snip~


That is what you come off like. There is no mistaking it. Oh and Thomas Paine doesn't live in this day and age. But Hollander does.

[Max Rockatansky]

Call it whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact of what it represents: Deliberate dishonesty and fraud coming straight from US "intelligence"
Russian propagandists must be very pleased with their successes.

[Max Rockatansky]

You know Max has reached his intellectual limit when he starts accusing you of being a Russian.
When a person is pro-Russian and anti-American, what conclusion would you draw?

[MMC]

Russian propagandists must be very pleased with their successes.

Well not exactly. :yo2:

[Captdon]

Who released emails by the Dems?

What emails?

What? The Podesta e-mails. Remember him? The Russians hacked him and gave them Wikileaks.

[Captdon]

Disagreed on all points except he was more of a political general than most. Still, since our generals have civilian commanders and a civilian Congress funding the military, "political generals" are necessary.


Oh, only one and it's political general? Before he became Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff name a second command position he had. He was a political hack.

[Captdon]

Yeah, the means of dissemination have changed. First of all anyone who thinks people voted for Trump because of Russian Facebook ads is a $#@!ing idiot. Secondly, teh US has been meddling in elections all over the world since 1945. The world is laughing at our outrage.

Yea, this is a joke. Meddling is what we do best.

[Captdon]

Yes. Yes. Increase our defenses, vigilance and counter-attack in a like manner. Your defense of the Russians is interesting.

Disagreed. Obviously. Of course, that's what the Russians would want us to do. Again, whataboutism.

No, I don't. OTOH, I do think that people who bring up US actions during the Cold War but never, ever say a bad word about the USSR and the PRC, are communist sympathizers or lackeys.

No defense of Russia. Just a fact we meddled in their election. We didn't get what we wanted and they didn't change any votes.

It was, and is, the left that never says anything about our enemies.

[Captdon]

Not really, the goal is the same, the tech has changed. Along with the fact that Russia did not hack the election, the only thing that has been shown is that they used propaganda to try to influence opinions. The DNC hack has not been traced to the Russians because the DNC would not let it be investigated. John Podesta emails were not Hacked really, he was a "victim" of Phishing, in other words he opened the door and invited the attacker in, again not tracked to Russians, although they have been accused of it.

No election equipment has been compromised, no votes changed, no vote tallies adjusted, therefore it is simple, the election was not hacked, the American people voted and elected Trump.

Meddling doesn't have to be a hack. They got the e-mails and got them into the public. That's meddling.

[MMC]

No defense of Russia. Just a fact we meddled in their election. We didn't get what we wanted and they didn't change any votes.

It was, and is, the left that never says anything about our enemies.

Word is the Russians are being accused of meddling in Mexico's upcoming Election now. After the Brits, the French, The Italians and some other Euros accusing them.

Of course everybody's doing it.....that is somebody.

[Captdon]

The US is a decaying empire, much like western Rome was near the end of its hegemony. Like many Americans, you choose to live in denial and cling to comforting mythologies about the nobility of the empire's machinations. I won't waste my time trying to disabuse you of these soothing notions. People in your age group are, generally speaking, hopeless. It's on the younger generations to make things right.

The US isn't an empire. If it were we aren't declining. Your anti-American view isn't very convincing. We are attempting something never done in history: we are trying to have a successful multi-racial, multi-cultural society with no one group in control. We haven't done it but we are the first to try it.

[MisterVeritis]

What? The Podesta e-mails. Remember him? The Russians hacked him and gave them Wikileaks.
A few points.
1) You err. There is no evidence the Russians hacked Podesta's email. Podesta was Phished, not hacked. Show me your evidence that the Russian government phished Podesta.
2) Your example is in the past. The Japanese attacked the US at Pearl Harbor in December 1941. That is not evidence that the Japanese are attacking us today.

What evidence do you have that the Russians are attacking our elections today? Which elections are they attacking? What methods are the Russians using?

I believe this is a setup to ask for a larger spying budget and to seize control over our elections.

[The Xl]

That's part of their job as long as it is in the interests of the United States.

You mean in the interests of certain people within the US, not the US citizenry as a whole.

[The Xl]

That will never sway the mindless idiots who worship the government and the national security state in particular.

They have been brainwashed into believing that "patriotism" means exercising slavish obedience and deference to the habitual liars in government.

Max literally just admitted that US intelligence deliberately lies to it's people, but that it's okay, I mean, it's for our own good and all.

[Tahuyaman]

Six intelligence agencies heads under oath have testified that the Russians are still interfering in America's elections. This article contains many links to the evidence. Of course some of you would rather blame the press (which might be our last line of defense against the Trump and company liars).

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-states-attack-intel-chiefs-say-russia-targets-midterm-election-170100777.html
What does this have to do with Trump?

[Captdon]

A few points.
1) You err. There is no evidence the Russians hacked Podesta's email. Podesta was Phished, not hacked. Show me your evidence that the Russian government phished Podesta.
2) Your example is in the past. The Japanese attacked the US at Pearl Harbor in December 1941. That is not evidence that the Japanese are attacking us today.

What evidence do you have that the Russians are attacking our elections today? Which elections are they attacking? What methods are the Russians using?

I believe this is a setup to ask for a larger spying budget and to seize control over our elections.

Yes, the Russians phished Podestra. That's where Wikileaks got the information. Even the lefty MSM admits that.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Japanese. I don't think you do either.

Now you believe the government wants to fix all the elections. Which party? Both?

The Russians have meddled in our election since 1945 as you well know. If you don't you need to be quiet and not look foolish. They aren't meddling at the moment but will, as usual, when the election season starts.

[Captdon]

The US government oversees an empire of lies, corruption, and hypocrisy. Why would I show them anything other than disdain?

You're wrong in everything you just wrote.While there's some truth to what you say it's not the whole story. Again, you throw the word empire around without seeming to understand what it means.

[MisterVeritis]

Yes, the Russians phished Podestra. That's where Wikileaks got the information. Even the lefty MSM admits that.
Evidence? Do you have any?

I don't know what you're talking about with the Japanese. I don't think you do either.
It was simple but possibly too sophisticated. You are claiming, incorrectly that the Russians attacked us, therefore, the Russians are attacking us. The Japanese attacked us. Even the lefty MSM admits that. Given your logic, it must mean the Japanese are attacking us today.

Now you believe the government wants to fix all the elections. Which party? Both?
I did not say fix. Control. Only the Federal government has the resources necessary to protect the three thousand individual elections we use to determine who will be the President. By passing control over our elections to the Federal government we can be sure every election will offer an outcome acceptable to the members of the Federal government.

The Russians have meddled in our election since 1945 as you well know. If you don't you need to be quiet and not look foolish. They aren't meddling at the moment but will, as usual, when the election season starts.
If the Russians are not meddling at the moment then what did the six leaders of the intelligence community mean when they said the Russians are still meddling in our elections?

I re-ask my question. Which elections are the Russians meddling in? How are they meddling?

If you don't [know] you need to be quiet and not look foolish.

[MisterVeritis]

You're wrong in everything you just wrote.While there's some truth to what you say it's not the whole story. Again, you throw the word empire around without seeming to understand what it means.
"You are wrong in everything...While there's some truth to what you say..."

Hmmm. This is far too sophisticated for me to unravel.

[Captdon]

The inevitable collapse of empire is precisely why I oppose them. It's why the founders established a republic instead of an empire, because they wanted a system of government that would actually last.



I know exactly what it takes: Corruption, hypocrisy, and an endless supply of lies.



The globalists love guys like you. The US empire is their creation and their most prized possession.



Define "anti-US".

The Founding Fathers were not gods. They were political powers, no better than today. They wrote a form of government for the elite. They didn't have permission to write it. They didn't put on any specific rights. That was done by the first Congress.


They didn't believe the common man was smart enough to have a voice. The voters were landowners and tradesman and business owners. The common man had no say and wasn't meant to.

They didn't say anything about empire yes or no. They were representing a dinky nation that had no importance and had no reason to think we would. They didn't reject any empire; they didn't think of any empire.

The Founding Fathers were just the political hacks of their day. The left the Constitution vague because they had to to get it passed. This empire notion you have has no validity. You r whole opinion of the Founding Fathers has no validity.

[Tahuyaman]

Yes, the Russians phished Podestra. That's where Wikileaks got the information. Even the lefty MSM admits that.

I don't know what you're talking about with the Japanese. I don't think you do either.

Now you believe the government wants to fix all the elections. Which party? Both?

The Russians have meddled in our election since 1945 as you well know. If you don't you need to be quiet and not look foolish. They aren't meddling at the moment but will, as usual, when the election season starts.

When was the DNC's computer system examined to determine just who hacked Podesta? The last I heard, Podesta fell for a phishing scam.

[Captdon]

No the definition is not asinine. Explains you out very well.


Anti-Americanism has been described by Hungarian-born American sociologist Paul Hollander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hollander) as "a relentless critical impulse toward American social, economic, and political institutions, traditions, and values......snip~


That is what you come off like. There is no mistaking it. Oh and Thomas Paine doesn't live in this day and age. But Hollander does.

Thomas Paine wasn't a Founding Father. He wrote his opinion. That you give so much credit shows a lack of confidence in your own thinking.

[Captdon]

"You are wrong in everything...While there's some truth to what you say..."

Hmmm. This is far too sophisticated for me to unravel.

I bet it is.

[MisterVeritis]

Thomas Paine wasn't a Founding Father. He wrote his opinion. That you give so much credit shows a lack of confidence in your own thinking.
Some say without Tom Paine the Revolution might have failed. Without a successful revolution we would have no founding. What does it take for someone to be labeled as a founder?

[Tahuyaman]

This Russia hysteria makes me think back to the time Obama ridiculed Mitt Romney for saying that Russia was our most serious geo-political threat.

[MisterVeritis]

This is far too sophisticated for me to unravel.

I bet it is.
Yep. Equally, it was beyond your abilities to write it.

I love this phrase: "You are wrong in everything...While there's some truth to what you say..."

[Captdon]

When was the DNC's computer system examined to determine just who hacked Podesta? The last I heard, Podesta fell for a phishing scam.

Okay, phishing is different than hacking. It was the Russians doing it and the general public wouldn't know the difference between hacking and phishing. Pretty weak excuse.

[MisterVeritis]

Thomas Paine, founding father and author of Common Sense, made a clear distinction between society and government, a distinction that ALL the founders asserted aggressively in their fight for independence.


...
Oh and Thomas Paine doesn't live in this day and age. But Hollander does.
Do you believe Tom Paine was wrong? Were the founders wrong?

[Captdon]

This is far too sophisticated for me to unravel.

Yep. Equally, it was beyond your abilities to write it.

I love this phrase: "You are wrong in everything...While there's some truth to what you say..."

Try reading this real slowly: Some parts of what you say is somewhat true, the whole statement isn't true.

Some of what Trump says is not true. That doesn't mean nothing he says is a lie. Too abstract for you? That's on you.

[MisterVeritis]

Russian propagandists must be very pleased with their successes.
The Democratic Party propagandists must be very pleased with their successes. They have you in their pocket.

[Tahuyaman]

Okay, phishing is different than hacking. It was the Russians doing it and the general public wouldn't know the difference between hacking and phishing. Pretty weak excuse.

Most people do know the difference.

[The Xl]

The Democratic Party propagandists must be very pleased with their successes. They have you in their pocket.

You have to understand that their are some that see the state on the same level as God or some other deity. There is no reasoning with them

[Tahuyaman]

Thomas Paine wasn't a Founding Father. He wrote his opinion. That you give so much credit shows a lack of confidence in your own thinking.
Thomas Paine can be considered one of the nation's founding fathers.

[Captdon]

Some say without Tom Paine the Revolution might have failed. Without a successful revolution we would have no founding. What does it take for someone to be labeled as a founder?

Some say? That's your evidence? He writes one pamphlet that means anything and he's a Founding Father? You were born 225 years too late.

[MisterVeritis]

Try reading this real slowly: Some parts of what you say is somewhat true, the whole statement isn't true.

Some of what Trump says is not true. That doesn't mean nothing he says is a lie. Too abstract for you? That's on you.
Cool... you wish to revise and extend your remark?

I love this phrase: "You are wrong in everything...While there's some truth to what you say..."

[MisterVeritis]

Some say? That's your evidence? He writes one pamphlet that means anything and he's a Founding Father? You were born 225 years too late.
Do you believe Tom Paine wrote just one time?

Who could not be stirred by these words?

December 23, 1776

THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.

[Ethereal]

The warped way the younger generation is coming out of the education system leaves little hope that they can make things right......

Perhaps. But at least there is hope. With the older generations, there is none.

[Ethereal]

No the definition is not asinine. Explains you out very well.


Anti-Americanism has been described by Hungarian-born American sociologist Paul Hollander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hollander) as "a relentless critical impulse toward American social, economic, and political institutions, traditions, and values......snip~


That is what you come off like. There is no mistaking it. Oh and Thomas Paine doesn't live in this day and age. But Hollander does.
Wow... what seething anti-Americanism you display, putting some silly foreigner and sociologist above a founding father.

Tell me, how long have you hated America?

[Ethereal]

Russian propagandists must be very pleased with their successes.
You're an apologist for government lies and fraud. You would have made a very good Soviet in that respect.

[Ethereal]

When a person is pro-Russian and anti-American, what conclusion would you draw?
Your definition of pro-Russian and anti-American is extremely warped, bordering on insane. In fact, the way you define anti-American is itself anti-American.

[Ethereal]

The US isn't an empire. If it were we aren't declining.

You are in denial, like many other Americans.


Your anti-American view isn't very convincing.

What's anti-American about the truth?


We are attempting something never done in history: we are trying to have a successful multi-racial, multi-cultural society with no one group in control. We haven't done it but we are the first to try it.

What a bizarre comment.

[Ethereal]

Max literally just admitted that US intelligence deliberately lies to it's people, but that it's okay, I mean, it's for our own good and all.
And they try to portray themselves as patriots.

Their cognitive dissonance is reminiscent of 1984.

[Ethereal]

Yes, the Russians phished Podestra. That's where Wikileaks got the information. Even the lefty MSM admits that.

The lefty MSM are liars. And you're their dupe.

[Ethereal]

You're wrong in everything you just wrote.While there's some truth to what you say it's not the whole story. Again, you throw the word empire around without seeming to understand what it means.

The vast network of US military installations overseas exists to exert control over foreign countries. That is an empire. And it is overflowing with corruption, lies, and hypocrisy.

[Ethereal]

The Founding Fathers were not gods. They were political powers, no better than today. They wrote a form of government for the elite. They didn't have permission to write it. They didn't put on any specific rights. That was done by the first Congress.


They didn't believe the common man was smart enough to have a voice. The voters were landowners and tradesman and business owners. The common man had no say and wasn't meant to.

They didn't say anything about empire yes or no. They were representing a dinky nation that had no importance and had no reason to think we would. They didn't reject any empire; they didn't think of any empire.

The Founding Fathers were just the political hacks of their day. The left the Constitution vague because they had to to get it passed. This empire notion you have has no validity. You r whole opinion of the Founding Fathers has no validity.

Another anti-American reveals himself. Tell me, how long have you hated America?

[Ethereal]

Thomas Paine wasn't a Founding Father. He wrote his opinion. That you give so much credit shows a lack of confidence in your own thinking.

So not only are you anti-American, you're ignorant as well.


Thomas Paine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine)

Thomas Paine (or Pain;[1] February 9, 1737 [O.S. January 29, 1736][Note 1] – June 8, 1809) was an English-born American political activist, philosopher, political theorist and revolutionary. One of the Founding Fathers of the United States, he authored the two most influential pamphlets at the start of the American Revolution and inspired the rebels in 1776 to declare independence from Britain.

[Ethereal]

It was the Russians doing it...

You have no proof of that.

[Ethereal]

Some say?

Educated people typically refer to them as historians.


That's your evidence? He writes one pamphlet that means anything and he's a Founding Father? You were born 225 years too late.

That pamphlet convinced the average American that a revolution was justified. Pretty much all historians agree that Thomas Paine was instrumental in helping to found America, which makes him a founder. It is sad that you hold yourself up as an example of patriotism when you don't even know basic American history.

[AZ Jim]

ETH, Don't you think you could do a better job consolidating your thoughts than posting TWELVE times in one thread to one other poster?

[Ethereal]

ETH, Don't you think you could do a better job consolidating your thoughts than posting TWELVE times in one thread to one other poster?
What difference does it make? It bumps your thread anyway.

[Peter1469]

Some say without Tom Paine the Revolution might have failed. Without a successful revolution we would have no founding. What does it take for someone to be labeled as a founder?
Even after all Paine did, he died penniless and only 6 people showed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine) up to his funeral. He had no friends.


At the time of his death, most American newspapers reprinted the obituary notice from the New York Evening Post (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Evening_Post) that was in turn quoting from The American Citizen,[84] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine#cite_note-85) which read in part: "He had lived long, did some good, and much harm". Only six mourners came to his funeral, two of whom were black, most likely freedmen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedman). Many years later the writer and orator Robert G. Ingersoll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll) wrote:


Thomas Paine had passed the legendary limit of life. One by one most of his old friends and acquaintances had deserted him. Maligned on every side, execrated, shunned and abhorred – his virtues denounced as vices – his services forgotten – his character blackened, he preserved the poise and balance of his soul. He was a victim of the people, but his convictions remained unshaken. He was still a soldier in the army of freedom, and still tried to enlighten and civilize those who were impatiently waiting for his death. Even those who loved their enemies hated him, their friend – the friend of the whole world – with all their hearts. On the 8th of June 1809, death came – Death, almost his only friend. At his funeral no pomp, no pageantry, no civic procession, no military display. In a carriage, a woman and her son who had lived on the bounty of the dead – on horseback, a Quaker, the humanity of whose heart dominated the creed of his head – and, following on foot, two negroes filled with gratitude – constituted the funeral cortege of Thomas Paine.[85] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine#cite_note-86)

[Max Rockatansky]

What difference does it make? It bumps your thread anyway.
True...but also makes you look like a cyberstalker.

Will I be reported and thread-banned for saying so? Only time will tell.

[Hal Jordan]

Thomas Paine wasn't a Founding Father. He wrote his opinion. That you give so much credit shows a lack of confidence in your own thinking.
Okay, I've been kinda quiet recently, but I can not refrain from commenting on this.

So, the first to publicly proclaim the need for independence was not a Founding Father? The man who laid the groundwork for declaring independence was not a Founding Father? The man whose writings the Declaration of Independence was so clearly dependent on that some historians believe he actually authored it was not a Founding Father? Then who the hell is?

In a book on the great thinkers of western civilization, Modern Thinkers, Van Buren Denslow had this to say about Thomas Paine. "If a set of opinions could be entitled to a place among political philosophers by millions having come to believe in and praise them, then indeed Paine would stand, more than any other, as the founder of the American school of political philosophy, as he certainly is the founder of the creed of American democracy."

Please, at least do some cursory research on the founding of America. That Thomas Paine was a very important Founding Father is clear to anyone who looks at the founding of America.

[Max Rockatansky]

Okay, I've been kinda quiet recently, but I can not refrain from commenting on this.

So, the first to publicly proclaim the need for independence was not a Founding Father? The man who laid the groundwork for declaring independence was not a Founding Father? The man whose writings the Declaration of Independence was so clearly dependent on that some historians believe he actually authored it was not a Founding Father? Then who the hell is?

In a book on the great thinkers of western civilization, Modern Thinkers, Van Buren Denslow had this to say about Thomas Paine. "If a set of opinions could be entitled to a place among political philosophers by millions having come to believe in and praise them, then indeed Paine would stand, more than any other, as the founder of the American school of political philosophy, as he certainly is the founder of the creed of American democracy."

Please, at least do some cursory research on the founding of America. That Thomas Paine was a very important Founding Father is clear to anyone who looks at the founding of America.

Agreed. No doubt Paine's writings were critical to the founding of our nation. Thomas Jefferson played no direct part in writing the Constitution since he was in France, but that doesn't mean he isn't a "founding father" or didn't influence it's writing.