Is It Time To Arm Teachers ?

[Grokmaster]

It takes good buys with guns, to stop bad guys with guns...and the WILL TO DO SO.


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Is It Time To Arm Teachers?



Two schoolchildren died on Tuesday and 14 others suffered bullet wounds when a classmate opened fire outside a school in Benton, Kentucky. It was the third shooting incident at a school in 48 hours and the 11th in the three weeks since the start of the year.
The victims were Bailey Holt and Preston Cope, both 15. A 15-year-old boy was arrested and charged with the attack.




The story fell somewhere into the middle of the day's news agenda. "Americans have accepted these common atrocities as part of life here," wrote one commenter on the New York Times website. "Another day, another shooting spree, and no political will to do anything about it."
But there is political will building behind a certain sort of gun legislation — reforms that aim to increase, rather than decrease, the number of firearms in schools and other public buildings, and arm teachers and school staff as a means of defence.
Hours after the shooting in Kentucky, Republican State Senator Steve West rushed to file a bill that would allow Kentucky schools to have armed school marshals patrol the site. His bill joins another in the state which seeks to loosen gun restrictions around college campuses.
Mr West's bill received cross-party support from state Democratic Senator Ray Jones. "We need armed officers in every school in Kentucky," Mr Jones said. "That is a small price to pay if it saves one child's life."
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.
If successful, those states would join at least nine that already allow some form of concealed carry in high schools. Each fatal school shooting reignites a long-running debate over whether the solution is more gun control, or more guns.


Good guys, bad guysEfforts to arm teachers and school staff were jumpstarted in the wake of the 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook elementary in Connecticut, in which 20 children and six teachers died. Facing a public outcry at the massacre, and renewed calls for gun control, the NRA pushed heavily in the opposite direction.
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun," said the NRA's Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, a week after the shooting, and the catchphrase evolved into a philosophy that underpinned the NRA's key legislative priorities.
The lobby group published a report calling for armed officers or staff in every school in America (https://www.nationalschoolshield.org/), and in 2013, the year after Sandy Hook, seven states enacted laws permitting teachers or school staff to carry guns.
"Over the past two or three years we've seen an explosion of legislative proposals to force schools to permit guns or to arm teachers," said Adam Skaggs, chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "And it's not just pushing the idea that people need guns in schools to be safe, it's the idea that people need guns everywhere - city streets, public parks, even government buildings."


But advocates say these kinds of reforms are the only meaningful way to protect schoolchildren. They point in particular to more rural schools, where an emergency response from police may take too long in the context of an active shooter incident. They also argue that gun-free zones are creating "soft targets".
In Kentucky, home to Tuesday's shooting, Republican State Senator Tim Moore introduced bills in 2017 and again in 2018 in an effort to reduce restrictions around guns on school and college campuses.
"Whenever in our country people with evil intent seek to harm others, including innocent children, they will seek locations where they know there's going to be minimal chance of resistance," he said in a telephone interview.
"Allowing law abiding citizens who are properly trained, properly vetted, with a thorough background check and criminal check … that is a deterrent."


Fourteen years after Columbine, and eight miles down the road, Littleton suffered another shooting. Karl Pierson, 18, went to Arapahoe High School in December 2013 with two guns and shot 17-year-old Clare Davis in the head, before killing himself in the school's library.


One of the first police officers on the scene that day was Swat team member Quinn Cunningham. Still a serving officer, he now runs three-day active-shooter training sessions for armed teachers.
The "Faster" training courses - funded by Coloradans for Civil Liberties and the Independence Institute - include a day of "mindset development" - preparing teachers for the possibility that they will have to shoot dead one of their own students.
Mr Cunningham, 44, asks the teachers to close their eyes and imagine the student entering the classroom with a gun. In reality, a teacher might have just a split-second to assess the situation and respond. This is the most difficult and emotional part of the training, and reduces some of the participants to tears.
"But if we can have them win in their minds first, against that student, then when it comes to the actual incident they will prevail," Mr Cunningham said.


Five members of staff from Fleming High School in north-east Colorado volunteered last year for the training, which takes place in the summer break to keep students in the dark about who's involved. One teacher who took part, who asked to remain anonymous, said she decided to picture her favourite student during the preparation exercises, in an effort to harden herself to the worst possible eventuality.
"Teachers aren't really supposed to have favourites but you know, you have the ones that are close to you," she said. "But if that student made the poor decision to endanger everyone, I'm going to have to do something about it."


The volunteers at Fleming High were subjected to background checks and a voice stress analysis, similar to a lie detector test, said school superintendent Steve McCracken. All five passed and now carry guns in the school.
"At the end of the day, no one in our school or community is in favour of having guns, but if a bad guy comes to the school we are now able to take care of it," he said.
"We do not have a local police department in our little town, and the sheriff's office could be at least 15 to 20 minutes away on a good day. The main reason for this is to close that gap."



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42804741

[Common]

I think the better option is to have armed school security, when school is in session keep all exterior doors locked from the outside, anyone seeking entrance has to be cleared by security. Security should have hand paddle metal detectors to use as needed. Cameras on at least all points of ingress and egress.

[MMC]

Is It Time To Arm Teachers ?


http://i.imgur.com/Y4TrI.gif


I have noticed that the evildoers haven't gone after Military Schools. Things that make you go......hmmmm.

[MisterVeritis]

I think the better option is to have armed school security, when school is in session keep all exterior doors locked from the outside, anyone seeking entrance has to be cleared by security. Security should have hand paddle metal detectors to use as needed. Cameras on at least all points of ingress and egress.
Why do you believe yours is the better option?

[Common]

Why do you believe yours is the better option?

Arming teachers will never be passed, major teacher unions came out against it the last time it was proposed. Its cost alone would negate local school districts doing it.

You have to clear every teacher, then "train" every teacher, then pay to have them qualify every 6 months and pay for their weapons and ammunition.

2 armed security or as many as needed per school size is far cheaper and they dont have to be school employees the school can contract it out.

I think theres a much better chance of getting armed security than arming all school teaching staff
You have to understand there may be many teachers incapable of even qualifying with a handgun or just outright refuse to carry one.

[AZ Jim]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?

[kilgram]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.

[Common]

You guys are 300 years too late, theres been school shootings in the USA since the 1700s

[MMC]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.
Nothing exceeds like excess when it comes to the leftness.

[Ethereal]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.
Does putting armed guards inside banks or court houses "create more fear"?

[jimmyz]

I wonder how many teachers would carry if allowed? They are mostly Leftists and the idea is abhorrent to them from get-go.

[Grokmaster]

I think the better option is to have armed school security, when school is in session keep all exterior doors locked from the outside, anyone seeking entrance has to be cleared by security. Security should have hand paddle metal detectors to use as needed. Cameras on at least all points of ingress and egress.
I like BOTH.

[Common]

I wonder how many teachers would carry if allowed? They are mostly Leftists and the idea is abhorrent to them from get-go.

I think there would be alot of teachers that would refuse to carry and there would be many more too squeamish to ever be efficient with a firearm.

Trained armed security with technical security, cameras, monitors etc is the most feasible solution

[Grokmaster]

I think there would be alot of teachers that would refuse to carry and there would be many more too squeamish to ever be efficient with a firearm.

Trained armed security with technical security, cameras, monitors etc is the most feasible solution

No one is to be "forced" to do so.
And there are others who would be fine with it. The CORRECT ones.

[Common]

Does putting armed guards inside banks or court houses "create more fear"?
Geez dont confuse him with facts

[Grokmaster]

Arming teachers will never be passed, major teacher unions came out against it the last time it was proposed. Its cost alone would negate local school districts doing it.

You have to clear every teacher, then "train" every teacher, then pay to have them qualify every 6 months and pay for their weapons and ammunition.

2 armed security or as many as needed per school size is far cheaper and they dont have to be school employees the school can contract it out.

I think theres a much better chance of getting armed security than arming all school teaching staff
You have to understand there may be many teachers incapable of even qualifying with a handgun or just outright refuse to carry one.
Not so sure about that:
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.

[Common]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?
What has been done in the last 30 yrs to stop school shootings and what do you suggest will help to stop them and dont say taking everyones guns cuz that just isnt EVER going to happen.

[Grokmaster]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.

Yes. Because being able to defend one's self "creates more fear". Der...

[MisterVeritis]

Arming teachers will never be passed, major teacher unions came out against it the last time it was proposed. Its cost alone would negate local school districts doing it.
I am not proposing we arm teachers. I propose we encourage teachers to arm themselves. If the unions are part of the problem outlaw the unions.


You have to clear every teacher, then "train" every teacher, then pay to have them qualify every 6 months and pay for their weapons and ammunition.
Nonsense. Provide a salary bonus for any teacher willing to become an armed first responder. The school board can establish a list of appropriate weapons and calibers. The teachers can train on their own.

2 armed security or as many as needed per school size is far cheaper and they dont have to be school employees the school can contract it out.
You have no idea how many armed security officers are required.

I think theres a much better chance of getting armed security than arming all school teaching staff
Straw men are cool to build and easy to knock down. Asking for teachers and staff to volunteer to be armed first responders will have a cost. Politicians will have to change the laws so a lawsuit against a volunteer or a school is nearly impossible. Schools will have to pay for insurance.

You have to understand there may be many teachers incapable of even qualifying with a handgun or just outright refuse to carry one.
You have to understand you are arguing against a straw man you built.

[Common]

Not so sure about that:
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.
Ok how many teachers are actually doing it and are they trained ? have they qualified ?. You cant just hand them all a gun and say here.

If you are going to arm teachers to be in a classroom with students, you damn well better train them and make them qualify and "PROVE" they can actually handle and use and firearm safely.

You need classroom time to teach them gun safety basics then work up.

[MisterVeritis]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.
Our goal should be to create great fear, uncertainty, and doubt in any potential perp's mind.

[Grokmaster]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?
I agree that leftist teachers should be excluded. All Obama voters should be disarmed, as they, as you demonstrate, are incapable of not shooting themselves, or someone else, accidentally or otherwise. This ONE ACTION, would cut the nation's murder rate in half, and would eliminate almost every mass shooting, as history teaches us:


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Not Obama voters, of course, should be the people charged with protecting our students, naturally...

[MisterVeritis]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?
You probably never drove, did you?

[Grokmaster]

I wonder how many teachers would carry if allowed? They are mostly Leftists and the idea is abhorrent to them from get-go.

Then they won't. Fine with me; leftists would likely be a danger to themselves and others ...let the OTHER people step up.

[Grokmaster]

Ok how many teachers are actually doing it and are they trained ? have they qualified ?. You cant just hand them all a gun and say here.

If you are going to arm teachers to be in a classroom with students, you damn well better train them and make them qualify and "PROVE" they can actually handle and use and firearm safely.

You need classroom time to teach them gun safety basics then work up.
Once again, to be effective it would have to be voluntary.

AT my grandson's school, (an excellent, private Christian academy-top SAT scores in the county) ,nearly every teacher there already has a CC permit...including the clerical workers at the front desk, as do nearly all of the parents...and grandparents, for that matter.

The public schools in this area would be similar if/when allowed. It isn't for every teacher...obviously.

But good guys with guns, stop bad guys with guns. We do not dispute that here in Indiana.

[MisterVeritis]

Ok how many teachers are actually doing it and are they trained ? have they qualified ?. You cant just hand them all a gun and say here.
If you are going to arm teachers to be in a classroom with students, you damn well better train them and make them qualify and "PROVE" they can actually handle and use and firearm safely.
You need classroom time to teach them gun safety basics then work up.
Let's try it and see.

We can start by making it lawful for any conceal carry permit holder to carry anywhere at any time. This includes schools and churches.

We can ask for teachers who are CCW permit holders to volunteer to become armed first responders. We can sweeten the offer by giving each volunteer a salary bonus (nontaxable) in each month where that teacher remained armed.

The Armed First Responder can train as anyone trains. If we choose to we can create a special class of CCW permits with additional training for teachers and staff.

[MisterVeritis]

I wonder how many teachers would carry if allowed? They are mostly Leftists and the idea is abhorrent to them from get-go.
Let's pass some laws allowing any CCW permit holder to carry anywhere at anytime. Let's sell them on the idea before we dismiss it.

[MisterVeritis]

I think there would be alot of teachers that would refuse to carry and there would be many more too squeamish to ever be efficient with a firearm.

Trained armed security with technical security, cameras, monitors etc is the most feasible solution
I like selecting a solution and then building arguments to support it.

Teachers who do not want to defend themselves and their children would not be required to do so. But many would love to be able to protect their kids.

[Grokmaster]

I like selecting a solution and then building arguments to support it.

Teachers who do not want to defend themselves and their children would not be required to do so. But many would love to be able to protect their kids.

Agreed, on all points

[Grokmaster]

Does putting armed guards inside banks or court houses "create more fear"?
Exactly. It does for the CRIMINALS = The Point.

[nathanbforrest45]

No, it is not time to arm teachers. Its well beyond that time. This should have been done after Columbine.

[nathanbforrest45]

Yes. Because being able to defend one's self "creates more fear". Der...You can't fault him, he's European and would rather be conquered than protect himself. Look at what happened in 1940 to 1945. They would rather have been under the yoke of totalitarianism then to stand and fight.

[Tahuyaman]

Here's a school district which chose to arm the students....

https://www.cnn.com/2015/01/13/living/feat-students-canned-goods-stop-school-shooters/index.html

Can canned goods stop school shooters?

[nathanbforrest45]

Only hire teachers who are willing to be deputized as law enforcement officers with limited authority (you have the right to gun down any maniac who appears on the school grounds)If they are not willing to be deputized put them all in the class rooms nearest the entrances and exits. While they are getting gunned down the real Americans would have time to get into position to stop the carnage.

[Grokmaster]

Only hire teachers who are willing to be deputized as law enforcement officers with limited authority (you have the right to gun down any maniac who appears on the school grounds)If they are not willing to be deputized put them all in the class rooms nearest the entrances and exits. While they are getting gunned down the real Americans would have time to get into position to stop the carnage.
Actually, those too timid to defend themselves should be the FURTHEST away from potential danger, as the more vigilant and courageous need to be at the entry points...and to protect the timid.

[MisterVeritis]

Actually, those too timid to defend themselves should be the FURTHEST away from potential danger, as the more vigilant and courageous need to be at the entry points...and to protect the timid.
One cannot tell where a shooter will begin. More armed responders spread across the campus is better than trying to outguess the evil one.

[Grokmaster]

One cannot tell where a shooter will begin. More armed responders spread across the campus is better than trying to outguess the evil one.

In a situation in a high school of middle school, there are only a few points of entry...I'm still waiting to hear how he entered the school, and then a classroom, unchallenged, and how he managed to smuggle in a rifle....

[MisterVeritis]

In a situation in a high school of middle school, there are only a few points of entry...I'm still waiting to hear how he entered the school, and then a classroom, unchallenged, and how he managed to smuggle in a rifle...
It has been explained on the radio today.
In a matter of a few minutes, he shot up the people in five school rooms.

Think more broadly. Each situation will be different. We should plan for the general case.

[Common Sense]

I can't imagine any of the teachers I had in school being able to defend a class with a gun.

Not to to mention a lot of teachers wouldn't want a gun and the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

More guns ins does not equal more safety. It's a recipe for disaster.

[MisterVeritis]

I can't imagine any of the teachers I had in school being able to defend a class with a gun.
Not to to mention a lot of teachers wouldn't want a gun and the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.
More guns ins does not equal more safety. It's a recipe for disaster.
This nonsense is easily dismissed.

[Common Sense]

This nonsense is easily dismissed.

Just because you say so? I don't think so.

[Grokmaster]

I can't imagine any of the teachers I had in school being able to defend a class with a gun.

Not to to mention a lot of teachers wouldn't want a gun and the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

More guns ins does not equal more safety. It's a recipe for disaster.

We agree; leftists are generally USELESS in serious, real life situations, where actual violent action is called for. No one is trying to forcibly arm the incompetent, sissified liberals in your school.

COMPETENT, NON-DAISY personnel do not suffer the same limitations as our friendly, daisies of the left, (who , for some reason, always try to judge other people according to their OWN WEAKNESSES and LIMITATIONS) and are more than capable of defending our kids.

Most of the staff, including teachers (women also) have CCW permits at my grandsons' school. So do most of the parents, actually.

COMPETENT and WILLING to defend themselves and our kids.

You know, ACTUAL, STRONG Americans. Not the limp-wristed variety.

More guns IN THE RIGHT HANDS, is the key. We agree; that CANNOT INCLUDE MOST LIBERALS...because, they are generally candy asses...


22755

[MisterVeritis]

Just because you say so? I don't think so.
Would you feel better if I did a point by point refutation of your nonsense?

What a waste of time.

[MMC]

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit


President Trump: Have Education Department Mandate Active Shooter Protocols.....


President Trump, if the Department of Education can force Americans to deal with the disaster of Common Core, it can certainly issue a federal mandate regarding school security. The time is now.


My personal manifesto is that government should never get involved in an issue unless an ongoing clear and present danger exists to large numbers of people, and that any regulation or legislation has a sunset provision.
Here we are.

In 1974, Israel endured the Ma’alot Massacre in which “Palestinian” terrorists took 115 people hostage at Netiv Meir Elementary School.


Twenty-two children and three others were killed and 68 injured. Israel now requires schools with 100 or more students to have a guard posted. The civilian police force handles the entire security system of all schools from kindergarten through college. The Ministry of Education funds shelters and fences, reinforces school buses, and hires and trains guards.


Guards don’t just stand around. They check everyone entering, and engage threats.


And yeah, they’ve got guns.The lawful purposes for carrying guns are very clear: protect school personnel and students, create a sense of security, deter the ill-intentioned, and provide self-defense.


Common sense. Except to the illogical dullards who claim that “adding guns to schools won’t fix anything” and are fixated on the NRA and the ridiculous notions that gun laws magically stop criminals and crazy people from obtaining one of the 300 million guns in our country.


But more to the point, Israel’s Police Community & Civil Guard Department have a preventative care program that encourages safe behavior and offers violence protection strategies in normal situations. Yet students are also trained in how to respond to an active shooter situation.


Ben Goldstein, an American who made aliyah to Israel, and now serves as volunteer security and supporter of IDF soldiers, says America is behind the curve. Nevertheless, he says, it doesn’t take much for students and teachers to protect themselves.

“Barricade, barricade. Are desks movable? Is the teacher’s desk movable? Can they barricade inside of 20 seconds? If the shooter gets in, the kids should take whatever they’ve got and attack. They can’t just sit there frozen or they will die. America does earthquake drills, why not active shooter drills? More kids have been killed by shooters than earthquakes.”


There is no other way, says Goldstein, and “sometimes children must take matters into their own hands.If the school has no proper security – two guards in case one gets shot, and no active shooter protocol, and no doors to withstand an attack – then the child needs to run as fast as they can AWAY from the shooter.”



The only solution is for America to toughen up. We have a pugilist for a president, and that is long overdue. Now its time for President Trump to fight for our children by wielding government power in the proper manner, to do something that any reasoned American would agree with.


Instead of handing out participation trophies, let’s make our kids into the self-reliant, pro-active defenders of themselves and others......snip~

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726



http://www.debatepolitics.com/images/smilies/New_Smilies/bravo.gif

[zelmo1234]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?
Wait, Wait, Wait So these people are in charge of teaching the future of the USA, preparing the children for life, and they can't figure out how to point a gun and pull a trigger?

There is no reason that a firearm training can't be part of the teaching certificate. None. And as for the Cost it is really simple you make more money if you choose to be one of the teachers that carries. And you purchase you own gun and keep your certificate up to date.

[NapRover]

I’m for copying Israel's model. They don’t have these problems.
Armed guards check everyone entering.

[Grokmaster]

Israel Figured Out How to Prevent School Shootings 40 Years Ago-It's Time the US Followed Suit


President Trump: Have Education Department Mandate Active Shooter Protocols.....


President Trump, if the Department of Education can force Americans to deal with the disaster of Common Core, it can certainly issue a federal mandate regarding school security. The time is now.


My personal manifesto is that government should never get involved in an issue unless an ongoing clear and present danger exists to large numbers of people, and that any regulation or legislation has a sunset provision.
Here we are.

In 1974, Israel endured the Ma’alot Massacre in which “Palestinian” terrorists took 115 people hostage at Netiv Meir Elementary School.


Twenty-two children and three others were killed and 68 injured. Israel now requires schools with 100 or more students to have a guard posted. The civilian police force handles the entire security system of all schools from kindergarten through college. The Ministry of Education funds shelters and fences, reinforces school buses, and hires and trains guards.


Guards don’t just stand around. They check everyone entering, and engage threats.


And yeah, they’ve got guns.The lawful purposes for carrying guns are very clear: protect school personnel and students, create a sense of security, deter the ill-intentioned, and provide self-defense.


Common sense. Except to the illogical dullards who claim that “adding guns to schools won’t fix anything” and are fixated on the NRA and the ridiculous notions that gun laws magically stop criminals and crazy people from obtaining one of the 300 million guns in our country.


But more to the point, Israel’s Police Community & Civil Guard Department have a preventative care program that encourages safe behavior and offers violence protection strategies in normal situations. Yet students are also trained in how to respond to an active shooter situation.


Ben Goldstein, an American who made aliyah to Israel, and now serves as volunteer security and supporter of IDF soldiers, says America is behind the curve. Nevertheless, he says, it doesn’t take much for students and teachers to protect themselves.

“Barricade, barricade. Are desks movable? Is the teacher’s desk movable? Can they barricade inside of 20 seconds? If the shooter gets in, the kids should take whatever they’ve got and attack. They can’t just sit there frozen or they will die. America does earthquake drills, why not active shooter drills? More kids have been killed by shooters than earthquakes.”


There is no other way, says Goldstein, and “sometimes children must take matters into their own hands.If the school has no proper security – two guards in case one gets shot, and no active shooter protocol, and no doors to withstand an attack – then the child needs to run as fast as they can AWAY from the shooter.”



The only solution is for America to toughen up. We have a pugilist for a president, and that is long overdue. Now its time for President Trump to fight for our children by wielding government power in the proper manner, to do something that any reasoned American would agree with.


Instead of handing out participation trophies, let’s make our kids into the self-reliant, pro-active defenders of themselves and others......snip~

https://townhall.com/columnists/lawrencemeyers/2018/02/15/president-trump-have-education-department-mandate-active-shooter-protocols-n2449726



http://www.debatepolitics.com/images/smilies/New_Smilies/bravo.gif

That is absolutely BRILLIANT !!!!


Students sick of waiting in line to be executed, attacked the shooter, and ended the Virginia Tech massacre....

[Grokmaster]

Wait, Wait, Wait So these people are in charge of teaching the future of the USA, preparing the children for life, and they can't figure out how to point a gun and pull a trigger?

There is no reason that a firearm training can't be part of the teaching certificate. None. And as for the Cost it is really simple you make more money if you choose to be one of the teachers that carries. And you purchase you own gun and keep your certificate up to date.

No, they're teaching them how to be victims, rely on handouts, and vote democrat.

[donttread]

It takes good buys with guns, to stop bad guys with guns...and the WILL TO DO SO.


22747




Is It Time To Arm Teachers?



Two schoolchildren died on Tuesday and 14 others suffered bullet wounds when a classmate opened fire outside a school in Benton, Kentucky. It was the third shooting incident at a school in 48 hours and the 11th in the three weeks since the start of the year.
The victims were Bailey Holt and Preston Cope, both 15. A 15-year-old boy was arrested and charged with the attack.




The story fell somewhere into the middle of the day's news agenda. "Americans have accepted these common atrocities as part of life here," wrote one commenter on the New York Times website. "Another day, another shooting spree, and no political will to do anything about it."
But there is political will building behind a certain sort of gun legislation — reforms that aim to increase, rather than decrease, the number of firearms in schools and other public buildings, and arm teachers and school staff as a means of defence.
Hours after the shooting in Kentucky, Republican State Senator Steve West rushed to file a bill that would allow Kentucky schools to have armed school marshals patrol the site. His bill joins another in the state which seeks to loosen gun restrictions around college campuses.
Mr West's bill received cross-party support from state Democratic Senator Ray Jones. "We need armed officers in every school in Kentucky," Mr Jones said. "That is a small price to pay if it saves one child's life."
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.
If successful, those states would join at least nine that already allow some form of concealed carry in high schools. Each fatal school shooting reignites a long-running debate over whether the solution is more gun control, or more guns.


Good guys, bad guys

Efforts to arm teachers and school staff were jumpstarted in the wake of the 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook elementary in Connecticut, in which 20 children and six teachers died. Facing a public outcry at the massacre, and renewed calls for gun control, the NRA pushed heavily in the opposite direction.
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun," said the NRA's Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, a week after the shooting, and the catchphrase evolved into a philosophy that underpinned the NRA's key legislative priorities.
The lobby group published a report calling for armed officers or staff in every school in America (https://www.nationalschoolshield.org/), and in 2013, the year after Sandy Hook, seven states enacted laws permitting teachers or school staff to carry guns.
"Over the past two or three years we've seen an explosion of legislative proposals to force schools to permit guns or to arm teachers," said Adam Skaggs, chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "And it's not just pushing the idea that people need guns in schools to be safe, it's the idea that people need guns everywhere - city streets, public parks, even government buildings."


But advocates say these kinds of reforms are the only meaningful way to protect schoolchildren. They point in particular to more rural schools, where an emergency response from police may take too long in the context of an active shooter incident. They also argue that gun-free zones are creating "soft targets".
In Kentucky, home to Tuesday's shooting, Republican State Senator Tim Moore introduced bills in 2017 and again in 2018 in an effort to reduce restrictions around guns on school and college campuses.
"Whenever in our country people with evil intent seek to harm others, including innocent children, they will seek locations where they know there's going to be minimal chance of resistance," he said in a telephone interview.
"Allowing law abiding citizens who are properly trained, properly vetted, with a thorough background check and criminal check … that is a deterrent."


Fourteen years after Columbine, and eight miles down the road, Littleton suffered another shooting. Karl Pierson, 18, went to Arapahoe High School in December 2013 with two guns and shot 17-year-old Clare Davis in the head, before killing himself in the school's library.


One of the first police officers on the scene that day was Swat team member Quinn Cunningham. Still a serving officer, he now runs three-day active-shooter training sessions for armed teachers.
The "Faster" training courses - funded by Coloradans for Civil Liberties and the Independence Institute - include a day of "mindset development" - preparing teachers for the possibility that they will have to shoot dead one of their own students.
Mr Cunningham, 44, asks the teachers to close their eyes and imagine the student entering the classroom with a gun. In reality, a teacher might have just a split-second to assess the situation and respond. This is the most difficult and emotional part of the training, and reduces some of the participants to tears.
"But if we can have them win in their minds first, against that student, then when it comes to the actual incident they will prevail," Mr Cunningham said.


Five members of staff from Fleming High School in north-east Colorado volunteered last year for the training, which takes place in the summer break to keep students in the dark about who's involved. One teacher who took part, who asked to remain anonymous, said she decided to picture her favourite student during the preparation exercises, in an effort to harden herself to the worst possible eventuality.
"Teachers aren't really supposed to have favourites but you know, you have the ones that are close to you," she said. "But if that student made the poor decision to endanger everyone, I'm going to have to do something about it."


The volunteers at Fleming High were subjected to background checks and a voice stress analysis, similar to a lie detector test, said school superintendent Steve McCracken. All five passed and now carry guns in the school.
"At the end of the day, no one in our school or community is in favour of having guns, but if a bad guy comes to the school we are now able to take care of it," he said.
"We do not have a local police department in our little town, and the sheriff's office could be at least 15 to 20 minutes away on a good day. The main reason for this is to close that gap."





http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42804741

It's time to at least allow them to carry.

[countryboy]

It takes good buys with guns, to stop bad guys with guns...and the WILL TO DO SO.


22747




Is It Time To Arm Teachers?



Two schoolchildren died on Tuesday and 14 others suffered bullet wounds when a classmate opened fire outside a school in Benton, Kentucky. It was the third shooting incident at a school in 48 hours and the 11th in the three weeks since the start of the year.
The victims were Bailey Holt and Preston Cope, both 15. A 15-year-old boy was arrested and charged with the attack.




The story fell somewhere into the middle of the day's news agenda. "Americans have accepted these common atrocities as part of life here," wrote one commenter on the New York Times website. "Another day, another shooting spree, and no political will to do anything about it."
But there is political will building behind a certain sort of gun legislation — reforms that aim to increase, rather than decrease, the number of firearms in schools and other public buildings, and arm teachers and school staff as a means of defence.
Hours after the shooting in Kentucky, Republican State Senator Steve West rushed to file a bill that would allow Kentucky schools to have armed school marshals patrol the site. His bill joins another in the state which seeks to loosen gun restrictions around college campuses.
Mr West's bill received cross-party support from state Democratic Senator Ray Jones. "We need armed officers in every school in Kentucky," Mr Jones said. "That is a small price to pay if it saves one child's life."
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.
If successful, those states would join at least nine that already allow some form of concealed carry in high schools. Each fatal school shooting reignites a long-running debate over whether the solution is more gun control, or more guns.


Good guys, bad guysEfforts to arm teachers and school staff were jumpstarted in the wake of the 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook elementary in Connecticut, in which 20 children and six teachers died. Facing a public outcry at the massacre, and renewed calls for gun control, the NRA pushed heavily in the opposite direction.
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun," said the NRA's Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, a week after the shooting, and the catchphrase evolved into a philosophy that underpinned the NRA's key legislative priorities.
The lobby group published a report calling for armed officers or staff in every school in America (https://www.nationalschoolshield.org/), and in 2013, the year after Sandy Hook, seven states enacted laws permitting teachers or school staff to carry guns.
"Over the past two or three years we've seen an explosion of legislative proposals to force schools to permit guns or to arm teachers," said Adam Skaggs, chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "And it's not just pushing the idea that people need guns in schools to be safe, it's the idea that people need guns everywhere - city streets, public parks, even government buildings."


But advocates say these kinds of reforms are the only meaningful way to protect schoolchildren. They point in particular to more rural schools, where an emergency response from police may take too long in the context of an active shooter incident. They also argue that gun-free zones are creating "soft targets".
In Kentucky, home to Tuesday's shooting, Republican State Senator Tim Moore introduced bills in 2017 and again in 2018 in an effort to reduce restrictions around guns on school and college campuses.
"Whenever in our country people with evil intent seek to harm others, including innocent children, they will seek locations where they know there's going to be minimal chance of resistance," he said in a telephone interview.
"Allowing law abiding citizens who are properly trained, properly vetted, with a thorough background check and criminal check … that is a deterrent."


Fourteen years after Columbine, and eight miles down the road, Littleton suffered another shooting. Karl Pierson, 18, went to Arapahoe High School in December 2013 with two guns and shot 17-year-old Clare Davis in the head, before killing himself in the school's library.


One of the first police officers on the scene that day was Swat team member Quinn Cunningham. Still a serving officer, he now runs three-day active-shooter training sessions for armed teachers.
The "Faster" training courses - funded by Coloradans for Civil Liberties and the Independence Institute - include a day of "mindset development" - preparing teachers for the possibility that they will have to shoot dead one of their own students.
Mr Cunningham, 44, asks the teachers to close their eyes and imagine the student entering the classroom with a gun. In reality, a teacher might have just a split-second to assess the situation and respond. This is the most difficult and emotional part of the training, and reduces some of the participants to tears.
"But if we can have them win in their minds first, against that student, then when it comes to the actual incident they will prevail," Mr Cunningham said.


Five members of staff from Fleming High School in north-east Colorado volunteered last year for the training, which takes place in the summer break to keep students in the dark about who's involved. One teacher who took part, who asked to remain anonymous, said she decided to picture her favourite student during the preparation exercises, in an effort to harden herself to the worst possible eventuality.
"Teachers aren't really supposed to have favourites but you know, you have the ones that are close to you," she said. "But if that student made the poor decision to endanger everyone, I'm going to have to do something about it."


The volunteers at Fleming High were subjected to background checks and a voice stress analysis, similar to a lie detector test, said school superintendent Steve McCracken. All five passed and now carry guns in the school.
"At the end of the day, no one in our school or community is in favour of having guns, but if a bad guy comes to the school we are now able to take care of it," he said.
"We do not have a local police department in our little town, and the sheriff's office could be at least 15 to 20 minutes away on a good day. The main reason for this is to close that gap."



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42804741
I think it's time to allow teachers to be armed if they wish it, as long as they receive the requisite training. But, I also think it's time to have armed security on the payroll at every school.

It also may be time to simply link to articles, and post one or two paragraphs. These mile-long posts are a little ridiculous.

[Grokmaster]

I think it's time to allow teachers to be armed if they wish it, as long as they receive the requisite training. But, I also think it's time to have armed security on the payroll at every school.

It also may be time to simply link to articles, and post one or two paragraphs. These mile-long posts are a little ridiculous.
I posted less than half the article. Sorry. :sad:

[MisterVeritis]

I posted less than half the article. Sorry. :sad:
It was way too much. :smiley:

[Chris]

I think it's time to allow teachers to be armed if they wish it, as long as they receive the requisite training. But, I also think it's time to have armed security on the payroll at every school.

....


I agree with that, voluntary, and trained.

I read today, somewhere, that there are two police officers assigned to each school these days. Maybe that's an average. Maybe that's a proposal. I didn't save the article.

[gamewell45]

It takes good buys with guns, to stop bad guys with guns...and the WILL TO DO SO.


22747




Is It Time To Arm Teachers?



Two schoolchildren died on Tuesday and 14 others suffered bullet wounds when a classmate opened fire outside a school in Benton, Kentucky. It was the third shooting incident at a school in 48 hours and the 11th in the three weeks since the start of the year.
The victims were Bailey Holt and Preston Cope, both 15. A 15-year-old boy was arrested and charged with the attack.




The story fell somewhere into the middle of the day's news agenda. "Americans have accepted these common atrocities as part of life here," wrote one commenter on the New York Times website. "Another day, another shooting spree, and no political will to do anything about it."
But there is political will building behind a certain sort of gun legislation — reforms that aim to increase, rather than decrease, the number of firearms in schools and other public buildings, and arm teachers and school staff as a means of defence.
Hours after the shooting in Kentucky, Republican State Senator Steve West rushed to file a bill that would allow Kentucky schools to have armed school marshals patrol the site. His bill joins another in the state which seeks to loosen gun restrictions around college campuses.
Mr West's bill received cross-party support from state Democratic Senator Ray Jones. "We need armed officers in every school in Kentucky," Mr Jones said. "That is a small price to pay if it saves one child's life."
The bill joins a raft of state legislation in recent years designed at putting more guns in schools. Most recently, the Michigan State Senate passed a bill in November which would allow teachers at primary, middle and high schools to carry a concealed handgun in class. Similar bills have been filed this year in Florida, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, South Carolina and West Virginia.
If successful, those states would join at least nine that already allow some form of concealed carry in high schools. Each fatal school shooting reignites a long-running debate over whether the solution is more gun control, or more guns.


Good guys, bad guys

Efforts to arm teachers and school staff were jumpstarted in the wake of the 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook elementary in Connecticut, in which 20 children and six teachers died. Facing a public outcry at the massacre, and renewed calls for gun control, the NRA pushed heavily in the opposite direction.
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun," said the NRA's Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre, a week after the shooting, and the catchphrase evolved into a philosophy that underpinned the NRA's key legislative priorities.
The lobby group published a report calling for armed officers or staff in every school in America (https://www.nationalschoolshield.org/), and in 2013, the year after Sandy Hook, seven states enacted laws permitting teachers or school staff to carry guns.
"Over the past two or three years we've seen an explosion of legislative proposals to force schools to permit guns or to arm teachers," said Adam Skaggs, chief counsel at the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "And it's not just pushing the idea that people need guns in schools to be safe, it's the idea that people need guns everywhere - city streets, public parks, even government buildings."


But advocates say these kinds of reforms are the only meaningful way to protect schoolchildren. They point in particular to more rural schools, where an emergency response from police may take too long in the context of an active shooter incident. They also argue that gun-free zones are creating "soft targets".
In Kentucky, home to Tuesday's shooting, Republican State Senator Tim Moore introduced bills in 2017 and again in 2018 in an effort to reduce restrictions around guns on school and college campuses.
"Whenever in our country people with evil intent seek to harm others, including innocent children, they will seek locations where they know there's going to be minimal chance of resistance," he said in a telephone interview.
"Allowing law abiding citizens who are properly trained, properly vetted, with a thorough background check and criminal check … that is a deterrent."


Fourteen years after Columbine, and eight miles down the road, Littleton suffered another shooting. Karl Pierson, 18, went to Arapahoe High School in December 2013 with two guns and shot 17-year-old Clare Davis in the head, before killing himself in the school's library.


One of the first police officers on the scene that day was Swat team member Quinn Cunningham. Still a serving officer, he now runs three-day active-shooter training sessions for armed teachers.
The "Faster" training courses - funded by Coloradans for Civil Liberties and the Independence Institute - include a day of "mindset development" - preparing teachers for the possibility that they will have to shoot dead one of their own students.
Mr Cunningham, 44, asks the teachers to close their eyes and imagine the student entering the classroom with a gun. In reality, a teacher might have just a split-second to assess the situation and respond. This is the most difficult and emotional part of the training, and reduces some of the participants to tears.
"But if we can have them win in their minds first, against that student, then when it comes to the actual incident they will prevail," Mr Cunningham said.


Five members of staff from Fleming High School in north-east Colorado volunteered last year for the training, which takes place in the summer break to keep students in the dark about who's involved. One teacher who took part, who asked to remain anonymous, said she decided to picture her favourite student during the preparation exercises, in an effort to harden herself to the worst possible eventuality.
"Teachers aren't really supposed to have favourites but you know, you have the ones that are close to you," she said. "But if that student made the poor decision to endanger everyone, I'm going to have to do something about it."


The volunteers at Fleming High were subjected to background checks and a voice stress analysis, similar to a lie detector test, said school superintendent Steve McCracken. All five passed and now carry guns in the school.
"At the end of the day, no one in our school or community is in favour of having guns, but if a bad guy comes to the school we are now able to take care of it," he said.
"We do not have a local police department in our little town, and the sheriff's office could be at least 15 to 20 minutes away on a good day. The main reason for this is to close that gap."



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42804741
Great concept but in all reality, how many teachers are willing to be armed and assume the liability that goes along with with. I called a teacher I know tonight and asked him how he felt about being armed in school; he told me he didn't become a teacher to carry a gun in school and had no interest in it whatsoever. When I mentioned that how about if schools had a resource officer assigned and he told me that the school in Florida had one and it made no difference since he never came into contact with the gunman who was firing an AR-15 which would be no match for the officers Glock in either case. I have to admit he made a good point. I doubt many teachers would arm themselves; besides if the gunman was armed with an assault rifle or something similar I doubt most teachers would engage a gunman in that situation.

[zelmo1234]

Great concept but in all reality, how many teachers are willing to be armed and assume the liability that goes along with with. I called a teacher I know tonight and asked him how he felt about being armed in school; he told me he didn't become a teacher to carry a gun in school and had no interest in it whatsoever. When I mentioned that how about if schools had a resource officer assigned and he told me that the school in Florida had one and it made no difference since he never came into contact with the gunman who was firing an AR-15 which would be no match for the officers Glock in either case. I have to admit he made a good point. I doubt many teachers would arm themselves; besides if the gunman was armed with an assault rifle or something similar I doubt most teachers would engage a gunman in that situation.
If there was an office that was in the school and did not come into contact with the shooter because of a Glock vs and AR then he should be fired and prosecuted for dereliction of duty

And we need to STOP with the AR being this mega powerful weapon, It is a cartridge that many states would not allow you to hunt deer with, most of the time it is 5.56 or .223, It leaves a lot smaller hole than a 9mm

So I do not believe that there was an officer in the school or we would have heard something about it.

Now as for your Friend, there are people that run toward Trouble like the teacher that became a human shield and Lord only knows how many lives that he saved. He would likely be the one to carry a Gun and would have ended the situation then there is people like your friend, that if the truth be told are afraid to put themselves in harms way. That is why you have all these stupid shelter in place laws that make people stand still while someone is shooting at you.

We don't need to advertise how many teachers and you darn sure don't want anyone to know who are the teachers that are carrying are. You make is so that to tell anyone if you are or are not will cost you your job.

These Shooters are Cowards, all of them, and just the idea that they could be shot will scare all but a very very few off. And once you start shooting at them, well they are not going to be as good of a shot as they were, when they knew they are the only one with a Gun.

If you have Armed personnel in the schools the shooters will not go there. And that is what apparently nobody wants to say.

[gamewell45]

If there was an office that was in the school and did not come into contact with the shooter because of a Glock vs and AR then he should be fired and prosecuted for dereliction of duty
If you have Armed personnel in the schools the shooters will not go there. And that is what apparently nobody wants to say.
There was a police officer(s) on campus when the shooter opened fire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101

[Cletus]

I like BOTH.

So do I. The principal of the local Middle School is actually one of my defensive pistol students. We were talking about this last week, before this most recent shooting. He would not want to arm all his teachers. He dais there are some he would be afraid to be around with a gun, but there are also some with good level heads who would probably be quite comfortable being armed and who would take the responsibility seriously enough to become proficient.

Combine them with professional armed security and the odds of an active shooter being able to rampage through the school are greatly reduced. We have considered the same approach at out UNM campus.

[Cletus]

There was a police officer(s) on campus when the shooter opened fire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101

Yeah, but that campus has 8 buildings. If he was in a different building, and I believe he was, how could he stop a 3 minute shooting spree?

[nathanbforrest45]

I can't imagine any of the teachers I had in school being able to defend a class with a gun.

Not to to mention a lot of teachers wouldn't want a gun and the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

More guns ins does not equal more safety. It's a recipe for disaster.


You went to school in Canada. That explains the wimpiness of your teachers. The ones that don't want guns and would take the vapors rather than defend themselves can just leave it up to anyone who cares if they live or die.

[zelmo1234]

There was a police officer(s) on campus when the shooter opened fire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101

Runcie, the school superintendent, said at least two police cars were typically on campus "on a daily basis."

it also says despite an officer being posted at the school

It does not say that there was and actual officer in the school, and if there was one, as I said he or she should be prosecuted and loose his or her badge.

We need someone that would be willing to do their job

[Dr. Who]

We agree; leftists are generally USELESS in serious, real life situations, where actual violent action is called for. No one is trying to forcibly arm the incompetent, sissified liberals in your school.

COMPETENT, NON-DAISY personnel do not suffer the same limitations as our friendly, daisies of the left, (who , for some reason, always try to judge other people according to their OWN WEAKNESSES and LIMITATIONS) and are more than capable of defending our kids.

Most of the staff, including teachers (women also) have CCW permits at my grandsons' school. So do most of the parents, actually.

COMPETENT and WILLING to defend themselves and our kids.

You know, ACTUAL, STRONG Americans. Not the limp-wristed variety.

More guns IN THE RIGHT HANDS, is the key. We agree; that CANNOT INCLUDE MOST LIBERALS...because, they are generally candy asses...


22755
Can you name one school where this has been tested?

[Cletus]

Great concept but in all reality, how many teachers are willing to be armed and assume the liability that goes along with with. I called a teacher I know tonight and asked him how he felt about being armed in school; he told me he didn't become a teacher to carry a gun in school and had no interest in it whatsoever. When I mentioned that how about if schools had a resource officer assigned and he told me that the school in Florida had one and it made no difference since he never came into contact with the gunman who was firing an AR-15 which would be no match for the officers Glock in either case. I have to admit he made a good point. I doubt many teachers would arm themselves; besides if the gunman was armed with an assault rifle or something similar I doubt most teachers would engage a gunman in that situation.

A trained man with a handgun could take down a nut with a rifle, especially in a closed environment like that.

[gamewell45]

Yeah, but that campus has 8 buildings. If he was in a different building, and I believe he was, how could he stop a 3 minute shooting spree?

Not sure what building he was in; I was just responding to the question regarding police presence or not.

[zelmo1234]

Can you name one school where this has been tested?
most likely not because if they know about these schools??? they are not going there.

[nathanbforrest45]

BTW, everyone does know the Benton KY shooting was accidental and no one was trying to shoot anyone. Most of the injured students were injured by flying glass when the bullet went through a window. Also, there was only one shot fired, it was a through and through on the first victim and hit the second.

[zelmo1234]

A trained man with a handgun could take down a nut with a rifle, especially in a closed environment like that.

A Trained man with a butter knife could e there shooter to notice him could save lives, it is about moving toward the shooter and letting him or her know that you have very bad intentions for their health.

[Cletus]

Can you name one school where this has been tested?

Texas.

Israel.

[gamewell45]

A trained man with a handgun could take down a nut with a rifle, especially in a closed environment like that.

What about the liability factor? Do you think that many teachers would be willing to take on the liability if they miss and kill a student or teacher? I'm talking civil and not criminal liability.

[Cletus]

A Trained man with a butter knife could e there shooter to notice him could save lives, it is about moving toward the shooter and letting him or her know that you have very bad intentions for their health.

Absolutely. Put pressure on him. If you have multiple people putting pressure on him, you are far more likely to have survivors than if everyone hides under a desk.

[Cletus]

What about the liability factor? Do you think that many teachers would be willing to take on the liability if they miss and kill a student or teacher? I'm talking civil and not criminal liability.

What about it? That could easily be covered by the Distrct's insurance underwriter or by the state, itself.

[nathanbforrest45]

I posted less than half the article. Sorry. :sad:


In the future this will suffice

Posted < half, regrets.

We are extremely busy people and don't have time to read long and involved postings that may or may not be pertinent and or germane to the issue at hand. You should take the time in the future to read the article and edit out all those parts that have no direct impact on the story being told. We are all smart enough to ascertain the complete meaning of a post by reading only a few words.

Please keep this in mind the next time you are intend on wasting our time with frivolous and possibly erroneous postings.

And I have run out of things I can ramble on about

Be of good cheer






Disclaimer: The above is fluff and meaningless. Thank you

[Cletus]

Not sure what building he was in; I was just responding to the question regarding police presence or not.

Understand.

[gamewell45]

What about it? That could easily be covered by the Distrct's insurance underwriter or by the state, itself.
Perhaps, but right now there is no mechanism in place and no doubt you'd need a policy worth tens of millions of dollars because if you hit more then one child and deaths result, you could be looking at multiple lawsuits. Plus the teacher would have to live with the fact that knowing they killed a child even if it was accidentally. You see where I'm going with this?? I doubt it if you'd get many teachers to volunteer to carry arms in a school. Police officers are the way to go I think.

[nathanbforrest45]

There was a police officer(s) on campus when the shooter opened fire.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101

I'm sorry, I read the link but can't find where it says there were police officers on the campus at the time of the shooting. There was an assistant football coach who doubled as a "security officer" who wasn't armed and probably ordinarily no more than a hall monitor.

I don't think anyone who was armed with any weapon would have said, Oh shit, he has an AR15 and all I have is this 9mm. I am going to hide in the bath room. I carry a 22 and I would have gone after him if it meant stopping him from shooting even one more kid.

[Cletus]

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/09/Medina-ISD-guns-640x507.jpg

[Cletus]

I'm sorry, I read the link but can't find where it says there were police officers on the campus at the time of the shooting. There was an assistant football coach who doubled as a "security officer" who wasn't armed and probably ordinarily no more than a hall monitor.

I don't think anyone who was armed with any weapon would have said, Oh shit, he has an AR15 and all I have is this 9mm. I am going to hide in the bath room. I carry a 22 and I would have gone after him if it meant stopping him from shooting even one more kid.

I think he was on a different part of the campus. It is a large school with 8 separate buildings.

[nathanbforrest45]

Perhaps, but right now there is no mechanism in place and no doubt you'd need a policy worth tens of millions of dollars because if you hit more then one child and deaths result, you could be looking at multiple lawsuits. Plus the teacher would have to live with the fact that knowing they killed a child even if it was accidentally. You see where I'm going with this?? I doubt it if you'd get many teachers to volunteer to carry arms in a school. Police officers are the way to go I think.
Right, its far better for the teacher to cower behind a desk while several of his students are slaughtered. No guilt there I'll bet.

[gamewell45]

I'm sorry, I read the link but can't find where it says there were police officers on the campus at the time of the shooting. There was an assistant football coach who doubled as a "security officer" who wasn't armed and probably ordinarily no more than a hall monitor.

I don't think anyone who was armed with any weapon would have said, Oh $#@!, he has an AR15 and all I have is this 9mm. I am going to hide in the bath room. I carry a 22 and I would have gone after him if it meant stopping him from shooting even one more kid.

In the link its about half way down, near the kid's mug shot.

I don't know, i'd think twice about firing a .22 at the shooter who was armed with an AR-15; I think unless you had a real lucky shot, the odds are that if he hit you with a shot from the AR-15, you'd be in pretty bad shape.

[nathanbforrest45]

I think he was on a different part of the campus. It is a large school with 8 separate buildings.

Be that as it may, I could find no reference to any law enforcement or security offices on campus other than the assistant coach who was killed in the link. Maybe I missed it but I read the thing several times.

[zelmo1234]

What about the liability factor? Do you think that many teachers would be willing to take on the liability if they miss and kill a student or teacher? I'm talking civil and not criminal liability.
Anyone that had a CCW/ CPL license is told that they should carry liability insurance. As far as a cost to the school it would be way cheaper to carry liability on the teacher that are carrying guns that the pay of there these parents are going to get after these shootings.

[nathanbforrest45]

In the link its about half way down, near the kid's mug shot.

I don't know, i'd think twice about firing a .22 at the shooter who was armed with an AR-15; I think unless you had a real lucky shot, the odds are that if he hit you with a shot from the AR-15, you'd be in pretty bad shape.


And if I didn't shoot at him but he shot at me anyway what shape would I be in?

Did you know the most gun deaths in the United States come from 22 caliber pistols?

[gamewell45]

Right, its far better for the teacher to cower behind a desk while several of his students are slaughtered. No guilt there I'll bet.

Even better hire police or security who are trained to do the job correctly. The teacher is going to be concerned with gathering all of his/her students into a classroom and locking the door. It's not about being a hero or a coward, its about survival of the children. With enough police/security staffing and proper procedures put into place as far as entry into the school itself, it should reduce the chances of a shooter getting into the school in the first place.

[zelmo1234]

In the link its about half way down, near the kid's mug shot.

I don't know, i'd think twice about firing a .22 at the shooter who was armed with an AR-15; I think unless you had a real lucky shot, the odds are that if he hit you with a shot from the AR-15, you'd be in pretty bad shape.
actually the hole is about the same size, one is just moving a lot faster than the other.

And I would fire a slingshot at the guy if it would keep the attention on me and away from the children.

[gamewell45]

Anyone that had a CCW/ CPL license is told that they should carry liability insurance. As far as a cost to the school it would be way cheaper to carry liability on the teacher that are carrying guns that the pay of there these parents are going to get after these shootings.

I think the insurance policies for the few teachers that would agree to carry in a school would be astronomical. Better to have properly trained police or security handle things there. Let the teachers teach, that's what they are hired to do.

[nathanbforrest45]

In the link its about half way down, near the kid's mug shot.

I don't know, i'd think twice about firing a .22 at the shooter who was armed with an AR-15; I think unless you had a real lucky shot, the odds are that if he hit you with a shot from the AR-15, you'd be in pretty bad shape.
"Parkland, in north Broward County, is about 30 miles northwest of Fort Lauderdale. The shooting on the sprawling campus happened despite the presence of police officers at the school.
Runcie, the school superintendent, said at least two police cars were typically on campus "on a daily basis.""

I found it and I apologize for not accepting your post. However, I will have to say (1). If there were two police cars (with police in them at the time) on campus and they did nothing they should be fired and sued personally by every parent and teacher at that school. (2). The presence of a police car does not automatically mean there were police in the cars or on the campus. The local elementary school here will sometimes park an empty police car to slow down cars driving in front of the school.

[zelmo1234]

I think the insurance policies for the few teachers that would agree to carry in a school would be astronomical. Better to have properly trained police or security handle things there. Let the teachers teach, that's what they are hired to do.
Mine runs about 140 a year for 1.5 million.

I am not opposed to the police but they need to be there.

[nathanbforrest45]

Even better hire police or security who are trained to do the job correctly. The teacher is going to be concerned with gathering all of his/her students into a classroom and locking the door. It's not about being a hero or a coward, its about survival of the children. With enough police/security staffing and proper procedures put into place as far as entry into the school itself, it should reduce the chances of a shooter getting into the school in the first place.

I agree, prevention is the first priority but if somehow he slips past the security detail having additional weapons inside the school building can only serve to insure a quick end to the shooting.

[gamewell45]

And if I didn't shoot at him but he shot at me anyway what shape would I be in?

Did you know the most gun deaths in the United States come from 22 caliber pistols?

I've heard that before, so I looked it up and there is some disagreement on that. I don't know how accurate it is so it is what it is.

http://gunstuff-jd.blogspot.com/2013/03/but-22-has-killed.html

[gamewell45]

Mine runs about 140 a year for 1.5 million.

I am not opposed to the police but they need to be there.

agreed.

[gamewell45]

I agree, prevention is the first priority but if somehow he slips past the security detail having additional weapons inside the school building can only serve to insure a quick end to the shooting.

you are correct; sometimes the best laid plans go awry so there cannot be a guarantee; all you can do is make the best decisions you can and hopefully everything works out.

[Dr. Who]

We agree; leftists are generally USELESS in serious, real life situations, where actual violent action is called for. No one is trying to forcibly arm the incompetent, sissified liberals in your school.

COMPETENT, NON-DAISY personnel do not suffer the same limitations as our friendly, daisies of the left, (who , for some reason, always try to judge other people according to their OWN WEAKNESSES and LIMITATIONS) and are more than capable of defending our kids.

Most of the staff, including teachers (women also) have CCW permits at my grandsons' school. So do most of the parents, actually.

COMPETENT and WILLING to defend themselves and our kids.

You know, ACTUAL, STRONG Americans. Not the limp-wristed variety.

More guns IN THE RIGHT HANDS, is the key. We agree; that CANNOT INCLUDE MOST LIBERALS...because, they are generally candy asses...


22755
There have been 11 school shootings in Canada since 1975 - only 3 involved the deaths of more than two people at the school. There have only been two that involved multiple fatalities i.e. more than 10 and the last one was in 2006. The last school shooting of any kind was in 2016 and one adult and one child was killed in the school. Two others also died, but they were in the family home of the shooter. We are talking about 11 in 37 years.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/deadly-shootings-schools-canada-1.3416685
There have been 338 school shootings in the US during the same period of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States#1970s

Since the US population is roughly 10 x the Canadian population, the school shooting rate in the US is over three times the rate in Canada on a per capita basis.

Guns are legal in Canada, but ownership requires passing an arms safety test, licensing, registration and a background check as well as strict secure storage and transportation regulations. Long guns - rifles do not require registration unless they are restricted weapons. AR-15s and the like are restricted.
https://www.vox.com/2014/10/24/7047547/canada-gun-law-us-comparison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Canada

[Grokmaster]

There have been 11 school shootings in Canada since 1975 - only 3 involved the deaths of more than two people at the school. There have only been two that involved multiple fatalities i.e. more than 10 and the last one was in 2006. The last school shooting of any kind was in 2016 and one adult and one child was killed in the school. Two others also died, but they were in the family home of the shooter. We are talking about 11 in 37 years.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/deadly-shootings-schools-canada-1.3416685
There have been 338 school shootings in the US during the same period of time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States#1970s

Since the US population is roughly 10 x the Canadian population, the school shooting rate in the US is over three times the rate in Canada on a per capita basis.

Guns are legal in Canada, but ownership requires passing an arms safety test, licensing, registration and a background check as well as strict secure storage and transportation regulations. Long guns - rifles do not require registration unless they are restricted weapons. AR-15s and the like are restricted.
https://www.vox.com/2014/10/24/7047547/canada-gun-law-us-comparison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Canada

Bogus math attempt. If there have been 11 such shootings in Canada, and our population is 10x that of Canada, the US would have had to have had MORE THAN 110 school shootings in a strict by population comparison.

We ARE NOT CANADA. We are FAR MORE DIVERSE, far more populated, and quite a bit rowdier, as well.

We don't want to be Canada, ya-eh....


Completely irrelevant to the point of this thread.

[Dr. Who]

What about it? That could easily be covered by the Distrct's insurance underwriter or by the state, itself.

Depends. Many schools are private - not insured by the state. If the school's liability limits were insufficient, the teacher's assets could be attached.

[Grokmaster]

In the link its about half way down, near the kid's mug shot.

I don't know, i'd think twice about firing a .22 at the shooter who was armed with an AR-15; I think unless you had a real lucky shot, the odds are that if he hit you with a shot from the AR-15, you'd be in pretty bad shape.

Not me; .22's are very easy to keep on target, and I can put 10 in the 9 ring at 25 feet in about 1.5 seconds. Ten well placed (forehead/or upper left chest/center shot) )fragmenting .22 hollow points will change anyone's plans...

[Dr. Who]

Bogus math attempt. If there have been 11 such shootings in Canada, and our population is 10x that of Canada, the US would have had to have had MORE THAN 110 school shootings in a strict by population comparison.

We ARE NOT CANADA. We are FAR MORE DIVERSE, far more populated, and quite a bit rowdier, as well.

We don't want to be Canada, ya-eh....


Completely irrelevant to the point of this thread.
Really? The vast majority of the US spree killers in schools have been white. What has diversity got to do with it? Are you saying that Americans are less civilized than Canadians? Wouldn't that make for more need for gun regulations, rather than less?

[Cletus]

Depends. Many schools are private - not insured by the state. If the school's liability limits were insufficient, the teacher's assets could be attached.

The insurance cost is being overhyped. It is not that expensive. My firearms instructor insurance, which covers me not only for injuries during training, but for injuries and damages caused as a result of that training, such as someone getting hurt in a defensive shooting because he did what I told him to do or because I failed to cover some possible scenario and left him unprepared for it, costs me about 300 Dollars year. Everyone who works for me is armed and my insurance covering their actions on the job is not cost prohibitive. I don't have that number at the top of my head, but I have been paying for it for 24 years and it hasn't bankrupted me yet.

[zelmo1234]

Depends. Many schools are private - not insured by the state. If the school's liability limits were insufficient, the teacher's assets could be attached.

I don't know about your area but in MI most of the private and charter schools don't forbid teachers from carrying concealed, it is likely that there are guns there already, and that is why they don't choose those schools.

[zelmo1234]

What I don't think people understand is the mind of these cowards.

What they want is there 15 mins of fame they want to see there name in the headlines with the body count

What they do not want is to see Hero Teacher shoots idiot before he can get started.

So they are not going to go where there is someone that can steal their thunder.

That is why they usually shoot themselves.

Take this last idiot, He wanted to be a professional School Shooter according to posts on You Tube.

Which to me means he was not done yet. apparently he thought he could get away and then do it again.

Now they are talking about the office that arrested him

[Cannons Front]

http://fastersaveslives.org/how-the-faster-program-works
Faculty / Administrator Safety Training & Emergency Response
school selects staff members who are willing, competent, and capable. Experts on school violence provide training in armed response, crisis management, and emergency medical aid.

It hurts nothing to try it

[countryboy]

I posted less than half the article. Sorry. :sad:

Sorry, I was in a seriously bad mood last night.

[countryboy]

Great concept but in all reality, how many teachers are willing to be armed and assume the liability that goes along with with. I called a teacher I know tonight and asked him how he felt about being armed in school; he told me he didn't become a teacher to carry a gun in school and had no interest in it whatsoever. When I mentioned that how about if schools had a resource officer assigned and he told me that the school in Florida had one and it made no difference since he never came into contact with the gunman who was firing an AR-15 which would be no match for the officers Glock in either case. I have to admit he made a good point. I doubt many teachers would arm themselves; besides if the gunman was armed with an assault rifle or something similar I doubt most teachers would engage a gunman in that situation.

Wait, a gym teacher used his body as a shield and you don't think he would've engaged the gunman? Not many would wish to be armed, obviously, since the vast majority of teachers are libs. But the number is not zero.

Assigning a single officer is not the answer. We need professional security protecting these kids NOW.

[countryboy]

Yeah! That's a GREAT idea! More chances of accidents with armed teachers. What have we become?

Yep, just as I thought. This is nothing more than a political tool for libs. They couldn't care less about protecting the kids.

[countryboy]

Hey, let's create more fear environment. That will work to prevent violence.

Wait, protecting the kids is a fear environment? What do you think a mass shooting is, recess? Good grief. This is why libs shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the decision making process.

[countryboy]

Does putting armed guards inside banks or court houses "create more fear"?

Yes it does. Especially for potential bank robbers.

[gamewell45]

Wait, a gym teacher used his body as a shield and you don't think he would've engaged the gunman? Not many would wish to be armed, obviously, since the vast majority of teachers are libs. But the number is not zero.

I have plenty of conservative friends who won't go within ten feet of a gun so politics make absolutely no difference for many when it comes to arming yourself. Now whether the teacher threw himself in front of the incoming bullets remains to be seen. The investigators will need to talk to witnesses, review video cameras and complete their investigation before we know the total truth.


Assigning a single officer is not the answer. We need professional security protecting these kids NOW.

I think assigning more then one officer or armed security would be in order depending on the size of the school and its needs. A high school with 4,000 students as opposed to a school with 200 students will have different needs. The school district would have to assess their needs and hire based on that.

[countryboy]

I have plenty of conservative friends who won't go within ten feet of a gun so politics make absolutely no difference for many when it comes to arming yourself. Now whether the teacher threw himself in front of the incoming bullets remains to be seen. The investigators will need to talk to witnesses, review video cameras and complete their investigation before we know the total truth.



I think assigning more then one officer or armed security would be in order depending on the size of the school and its needs. A high school with 4,000 students as opposed to a school with 200 students will have different needs. The school district would have to assess their needs and hire based on that.

The police have enough to do. We need to hire professional security guards.

Your contrarian stance on everything else is noted.

[MMC]

The police have enough to do. We need to hire professional security guards.

Your contrarian stance on everything else is noted.

Or retired Police.....retired or those Vets no longer serving. Plus giving Vets accreditation to teach.

[Dr. Who]

The insurance cost is being overhyped. It is not that expensive. My firearms instructor insurance, which covers me not only for injuries during training, but for injuries and damages caused as a result of that training, such as someone getting hurt in a defensive shooting because he did what I told him to do or because I failed to cover some possible scenario and left him unprepared for it, costs me about 300 Dollars year. Everyone who works for me is armed and my insurance covering their actions on the job is not cost prohibitive. I don't have that number at the top of my head, but I have been paying for it for 24 years and it hasn't bankrupted me yet.
Depending on the state, the damages in a wrongful death suit could exceed $10,000,000 dollars. Something to keep in mind.

[MisterVeritis]

Depending on the state, the damages in a wrongful death suit could exceed $10,000,000 dollars. Something to keep in mind.
Change the law.

[Dr. Who]

I don't know about your area but in MI most of the private and charter schools don't forbid teachers from carrying concealed, it is likely that there are guns there already, and that is why they don't choose those schools.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's the luck of the draw, no pun intended.

[Dangermouse]

ISIS just claimed responsibility for the NRA. "They do more damage from the inside that we could dream of!"

[MisterVeritis]

ISIS just claimed responsibility for the NRA. "They do more damage from the inside that we could dream of!"
Kooks will fall for this.

[gamewell45]

The police have enough to do. We need to hire professional security guards.

Your contrarian stance on everything else is noted.

Why thank you.

[MMC]

ISIS just claimed responsibility for the NRA. "They do more damage from the inside that we could dream of!"


They did? Link that up for us would you.

[Grokmaster]

ISIS just claimed responsibility for the NRA. "They do more damage from the inside that we could dream of!"

Please cite the shootings that involved NRA members.

22761

[NapRover]

Please cite the shootings that involved NRA members.

22761
Can’t find any but
22763

[Grokmaster]

Can’t find any but
22763


I'm beginning to see a pattern...

[Peter1469]

Great concept but in all reality, how many teachers are willing to be armed and assume the liability that goes along with with. I called a teacher I know tonight and asked him how he felt about being armed in school; he told me he didn't become a teacher to carry a gun in school and had no interest in it whatsoever. When I mentioned that how about if schools had a resource officer assigned and he told me that the school in Florida had one and it made no difference since he never came into contact with the gunman who was firing an AR-15 which would be no match for the officers Glock in either case. I have to admit he made a good point. I doubt many teachers would arm themselves; besides if the gunman was armed with an assault rifle or something similar I doubt most teachers would engage a gunman in that situation.


Teachers used their bodies to shield students from this insane shooter. Of course they would instead use a carry conceal weapon.

[Grokmaster]

Teachers used their bodies to shield students from this insane shooter. Of course they would instead use a carry conceal weapon.

Astounding courage displayed by a few of them...

[gamewell45]

Teachers used their bodies to shield students from this insane shooter. Of course they would instead use a carry conceal weapon.
Until the investigation is completed by interviews of those present, video cameras and crime scene investigation and a final report given we won't know for sure. Furthermore, there is no guarantee in further incidents that teachers will throw themselves at gunmen nor is there a guarantee that all of them will agree to arm themselves given the enormous responsibility that goes with that task including but not limited to training and liability. I personally spoke with a friend who is a teacher and he want's nothing to do with carrying a weapon in school. Now I realize that not every teacher is going to take the same position on that, but when you factor in everything I can see that not every teacher will be interested in arming themselves.


Better to hire trained professionals to handle security as opposed to depending on your science teacher for security. Just my thoughts on it.

[MisterVeritis]

Until the investigation is completed by interviews of those present, video cameras and crime scene investigation and a final report given we won't know for sure. Furthermore, there is no guarantee in further incidents that teachers will throw themselves at gunmen nor is there a guarantee that all of them will agree to arm themselves given the enormous responsibility that goes with that task including but not limited to training and liability. I personally spoke with a friend who is a teacher and he want's nothing to do with carrying a weapon in school. Now I realize that not every teacher is going to take the same position on that, but when you factor in everything I can see that not every teacher will be interested in arming themselves.


Better to hire trained professionals to handle security as opposed to depending on your science teacher for security. Just my thoughts on it.
For your local schools, your solution might be an acceptable answer.
I prefer that from this day forward if you want to teach you must be armed and trained.

[Kacper]

Arming teachers is an idiotic proposal as every person with a gun during a report of a school shooting should be treated as a suspect by the police who already have enough on their hands to deal with. One of the Florida teachers was killed just trying to secure the door to protect his students. When confronted with this situation, teachers have a duty to secure their students, not play Dirty Harry. It is law enforcement's job to take down the shooter. Arming teachers will get students and teachers killed.

[MisterVeritis]

Arming teachers is an idiotic proposal as every person with a gun during a report of a school shooting should be treated as a suspect by the police who already have enough on their hands to deal with. One of the Florida teachers was killed just trying to secure the door to protect his students. When confronted with this situation, teachers have a duty to secure their students, not play Dirty Harry. It is law enforcement's job to take down the shooter. Arming teachers will get students and teachers killed.
This indicates why you can never be part of the solution.

[Adelaide]

Armed teachers is a bad idea. The potential liability for school boards will probably prevent it since they can't afford lawsuits. Accidents are far more likely than a school shooting, statistically.

Guns are not really the answer in this situation any more than they are the problem. A mentally ill person is not going to be scared off by a couple poorly trained teachers. A mentally ill shooter probably has weapons that will do more damage and quicker damage than whatever basic handgun that would hypothetically get approved for teachers. On and on.

As annoying as it is to see some advocate for strict firearm laws, it's as annoying to read people advocating guns in a school zone where children are. Suicides, accidents, and other problems are going to be drastically more likely simply by having a gun on the property. It also doesn't address the actual problem, which is usually mental illness, and sometimes other issues along the same lines. Not the problem, not the answer.

[MisterVeritis]

Armed teachers is a bad idea. The potential liability for school boards will probably prevent it since they can't afford lawsuits. Accidents are far more likely than a school shooting, statistically.

Guns are not really the answer in this situation any more than they are the problem. A mentally ill person is not going to be scared off by a couple poorly trained teachers. A mentally ill shooter probably has weapons that will do more damage and quicker damage than whatever basic handgun that would hypothetically get approved for teachers. On and on.

As annoying as it is to see some advocate for strict firearm laws, it's as annoying to read people advocating guns in a school zone where children are. Suicides, accidents, and other problems are going to be drastically more likely simply by having a gun on the property. It also doesn't address the actual problem, which is usually mental illness, and sometimes other issues along the same lines. Not the problem, not the answer.
Fortunately, every location can choose their solution. If you want your students to remain in a kill zone that will be up to your local school board.

[Kacper]

Armed teachers is a bad idea. The potential liability for school boards will probably prevent it since they can't afford lawsuits. Accidents are far more likely than a school shooting, statistically.

Guns are not really the answer in this situation any more than they are the problem. A mentally ill person is not going to be scared off by a couple poorly trained teachers. A mentally ill shooter probably has weapons that will do more damage and quicker damage than whatever basic handgun that would hypothetically get approved for teachers. On and on.

As annoying as it is to see some advocate for strict firearm laws, it's as annoying to read people advocating guns in a school zone where children are. Suicides, accidents, and other problems are going to be drastically more likely simply by having a gun on the property. It also doesn't address the actual problem, which is usually mental illness, and sometimes other issues along the same lines. Not the problem, not the answer.
"It is the mental illness" strikes me as a cowardly position unless you are saying we need to lock mentally ill people up and throw away the key. Mentally ill people have a bad habit of falling off their meds, and often are even worse as a result than what got them on the meds in the first place. I mean everybody seemed to know this guy was nuts and was going to shoot up the school and nothing was done about it. You can't arrest them until after they act.

[MisterVeritis]

"It is the mental illness" strikes me as a cowardly position unless you are saying we need to lock mentally ill people up and throw away the key. Mentally ill people have a bad habit of falling off their meds, and often are even worse as a result than what got them on the meds in the first place. I mean everybody seemed to know this guy was nuts and was going to shoot up the school and nothing was done about it. You can't arrest them until after they act.
We used to lock them up. Maybe we should revisit that judicial decision.

[Captdon]

Why do you believe yours is the better option?

It's not the teacher's job is a good reason. An armed guard is trained on what to look for.

[MisterVeritis]

It's not the teacher's job is a good reason. An armed guard is trained on what to look for.
How many armed guards? One per teacher?

In three minutes a determined murderer unhindered can kill 17 children and adults.

This is an engineering problem. We need lots more weapons in the hands of trained sheepdogs scattered evenly throughout the sheep.

[MisterVeritis]

It's not the teacher's job is a good reason. An armed guard is trained on what to look for.
That is a piss poor reason.

We can make arms training a part of teacher certification.

[Captdon]

Wait, a gym teacher used his body as a shield and you don't think he would've engaged the gunman? Not many would wish to be armed, obviously, since the vast majority of teachers are libs. But the number is not zero.

Assigning a single officer is not the answer. We need professional security protecting these kids NOW.

Teachers are not professional security.

[Common Sense]

How many armed guards? One per teacher?

In three minutes a determined murderer unhindered can kill 17 children and adults.

This is an engineering problem. We need lots more weapons in the hands of trained sheepdogs scattered evenly throughout the sheep.
How do you propose they pay for it? Increase property taxes?

[Adelaide]

"It is the mental illness" strikes me as a cowardly position unless you are saying we need to lock mentally ill people up and throw away the key. Mentally ill people have a bad habit of falling off their meds, and often are even worse as a result than what got them on the meds in the first place. I mean everybody seemed to know this guy was nuts and was going to shoot up the school and nothing was done about it. You can't arrest them until after they act.

You can arrest them and have them put on a 72-hour psychiatric hold.

But that's not what I am advocating. The United States lacks an infrastructure to deal with mental illness properly, especially in children and teenagers. There are almost no residential programs or intensive day programs and the ones that exist are either not covered by insurance or people who would access the services don't have the money to pay for it. Parents with children who are showing signs of violence, like killing animals or violent outbursts or callous-unemotional traits, often turn to the juvenile justice system. That system doesn't have enough counseling or psychological services so you put your child into 24/7 care for a crime and then create a criminal.

Then there are issues like whether to keep firearms in the home when a child or teenager is showing signs of violence. Parents maybe need to consider that more carefully - Adam Lanza is a good example, there. Either do not have them or secure them in a way that the troubled child/teenager can't access them. It's the responsibility of parents, however, not the state.

There are several ways to look at it and to try and find solutions.

[Captdon]

This indicates why you can never be part of the solution.

How?

[Adelaide]

Fortunately, every location can choose their solution. If you want your students to remain in a kill zone that will be up to your local school board.

Kids are more likely to die from a million other things. School shootings are statistically rare. Potentially creating more problems to solve a statistically insignificant problem seems counterintuitive.

[MisterVeritis]

How do you propose they pay for it? Increase property taxes?
I think a small, tax-free salary bonus would be sufficient. We have teachers who hold CCW permits but they are not allowed to carry while on school grounds. We can fix that with a law change. We can also make it nearly impossible to sue an armed first responder.

We protect our politicians with armed men and women. Why not our children?

[MisterVeritis]

Kids are more likely to die from a million other things. School shootings are statistically rare. Potentially creating more problems to solve a statistically insignificant problem seems counterintuitive.
And for you, your children are not a priority.

[Adelaide]

I think a small, tax-free salary bonus would be sufficient. We have teachers who hold CCW permits but they are not allowed to carry while on school grounds. We can fix that with a law change. We can also make it nearly impossible to sue an armed first responder.

We protect our politicians with armed men and women. Why not our children?

When a teacher is sued for pulling a weapon on a student with a cell phone or for accidentally discharging their weapon (more likely than a school shooting - much more likely) will that tax-free benefit make much of a dent in how much they are going to have to pay?

[MisterVeritis]

How?
Learn to ask better questions.

[Adelaide]

And for you, your children are not a priority.

Yes, clearly I want my children killed by a school shooter because I believe in rational thought and common sense. Clearly.

[MisterVeritis]

When a teacher is sued for pulling a weapon on a student with a cell phone or for accidentally discharging their weapon (more likely than a school shooting - much more likely) will that tax-free benefit make much of a dent in how much they are going to have to pay?
Change the law. Easy Peasy.

[MisterVeritis]

Yes, clearly I want my children killed by a school shooter because I believe in rational thought and common sense. Clearly.
You have already made the case that children are not your priority. Clearly.

[Captdon]

How many armed guards? One per teacher?

In three minutes a determined murderer unhindered can kill 17 children and adults.

This is an engineering problem. We need lots more weapons in the hands of trained sheepdogs scattered evenly throughout the sheep.

They watch a camera and know what to look for. At he fist sign of anything they can do what's necessary without thinking it out.

Some teacher not knowing what's going on is a sham. You really believe a teacher with a Glock is willing to engage an AR-15? Maybe form time to time and probably killed instantly. Some help. Then the cops don't know who to take down. One good outcome won't make up for all the bad ones.

[Adelaide]

Change the law. Easy Peasy.

So... teachers should be immune from the laws of the country or from civil action even if they do something negligent or inappropriate?

You have some weird ideas.

[Captdon]

How do you propose they pay for it? Increase property taxes?

If need be. What price do you put on a live kid?

[Adelaide]

You have already made the case that children are not your priority. Clearly.

Nah, that would be your assumption based on nothing to suggest it. I disagree, ergo, I hate children and want them to die.

Totally reasonable assumption.

[Captdon]

Learn to ask better questions.

Answer the one I asked.

[MisterVeritis]

In three minutes a determined murderer unhindered can kill 17 children and adults.

They watch a camera and know what to look for. At he fist sign of anything they can do what's necessary without thinking it out.
Some teacher not knowing what's going on is a sham. You really believe a teacher with a Glock is willing to engage an AR-15? Maybe form time to time and probably killed instantly. Some help. Then the cops don't know who to take down. One good outcome won't make up for all the bad ones.
It really does not matter what I think as I will not be the one considering whether or not to murder children. What matters is what a perp might think. If one in five adults is likely armed and trained to use a weapon am I likely go attack that school? I think any reasonable person will agree the answer is no.

By the way, I did not mention Glocks, although that is my preferred concealed carry weapon.

[MisterVeritis]

Answer the one I asked.
You asked how. It made no sense.

[MisterVeritis]

So... teachers should be immune from the laws of the country or from civil action even if they do something negligent or inappropriate?
You have some weird ideas.
Do you want a solution or do you want more excuses for inaction?

I fully support your plan to do absolutely nothing to protect your children.

[MisterVeritis]

You have already made the case that children are not your priority. Clearly.

Nah, that would be your assumption based on nothing to suggest it. I disagree, ergo, I hate children and want them to die.
Totally reasonable assumption.
That is your argument.

[Adelaide]

Do you want a solution or do you want more excuses for inaction?

I fully support your plan to do absolutely nothing to protect your children.



I have suggested potential ways to address the high-risk group most likely to commit this type of crime. Regardless, school shootings are not that common. They don't kill nearly as many people as simple gun accidents. Adding guns to schools is more likely to make it less safe, statistically, than not introducing guns.

Gun advocates say firearms aren't the problem, which I agree with, but they're also not the solution and won't deter and probably won't stop someone who goes out and buys an AR-15 and decides to attack a school.

[Common Sense]

You have already made the case that children are not your priority. Clearly.

Do you ever get tired of making ridiculous claims of what others think?

It it makes it very difficult to take you seriously.

[Adelaide]

You have already made the case that children are not your priority. Clearly.

That is your argument.

No, it isn't.

Think we are done here since you can't have a rational debate on the subject.

[MisterVeritis]

I have suggested potential ways to address the high-risk group most likely to commit this type of crime. Regardless, school shootings are not that common. They don't kill nearly as many people as simple gun accidents. Adding guns to schools is more likely to make it less safe, statistically, than not introducing guns.

Gun advocates say firearms aren't the problem, which I agree with, but they're also not the solution and won't deter and probably won't stop someone who goes out and buys an AR-15 and decides to attack a school.
So no answer. Thanks.

I am with you. I do not mind if every now and then some crazy person murders a whole bunch of children and adults we have made vulnerable for no good reason.

[zelmo1234]

Arming teachers is an idiotic proposal as every person with a gun during a report of a school shooting should be treated as a suspect by the police who already have enough on their hands to deal with. One of the Florida teachers was killed just trying to secure the door to protect his students. When confronted with this situation, teachers have a duty to secure their students, not play Dirty Harry. It is law enforcement's job to take down the shooter. Arming teachers will get students and teachers killed.
Standing in place is not securing your students. illumination of the threat is.

The only want to end these situations is to stop the shooter, in all but one case that has ended in the shooters death.

the faster we can get a gun on the scene There is no faster way that to have it already there. Teachers that choose to should be able to end this threat.

[MisterVeritis]

No, it isn't.
Think we are done here since you can't have a rational debate on the subject.
It is solely your problem.

[zelmo1234]

This indicates why you can never be part of the solution.

What do you mean, they are prepared to make it a gun free zone and Take guns away from law abiding citizens? What more could you do to actually help the children.

[MisterVeritis]

Do you ever get tired of making ridiculous claims of what others think?
It it makes it very difficult to take you seriously.
When one makes the usual excuses for why we ought not to protect our children what other response should I have?

[Abby08]

Does putting armed guards inside banks or court houses "create more fear"?

There was an armed guard in the hospital the last time I was there.... didn't scare me a bit.

[zelmo1234]

Armed teachers is a bad idea. The potential liability for school boards will probably prevent it since they can't afford lawsuits. Accidents are far more likely than a school shooting, statistically.

Guns are not really the answer in this situation any more than they are the problem. A mentally ill person is not going to be scared off by a couple poorly trained teachers. A mentally ill shooter probably has weapons that will do more damage and quicker damage than whatever basic handgun that would hypothetically get approved for teachers. On and on.

As annoying as it is to see some advocate for strict firearm laws, it's as annoying to read people advocating guns in a school zone where children are. Suicides, accidents, and other problems are going to be drastically more likely simply by having a gun on the property. It also doesn't address the actual problem, which is usually mental illness, and sometimes other issues along the same lines. Not the problem, not the answer.
And yet we know that Strict firearm laws will prevent Zero of these Deaths, And we also know that the faster the second gun arrives on the scene the fewer lives that are lost.

The Law suits that come after these shooting are going to be much higher when student are slaughtered by these monsters.

[MisterVeritis]

What do you mean, they are prepared to make it a gun free zone and Take guns away from law abiding citizens? What more could you do to actually help the children.
Indeed. Experts know the faster one can get good guns into the problem area the lower the friendly casualty rate will be.

The best way to ensure friendly guns in the mix is to invite teachers and staff to volunteer to become sheepdogs.

[zelmo1234]

It's not the teacher's job is a good reason. An armed guard is trained on what to look for.

This would be a false statement most of the time.

There are very few police officers that are trained to know what to look for.

[MisterVeritis]

It's not the teacher's job is a good reason. An armed guard is trained on what to look for.
An obviously armed guard is a bullet sump.

[zelmo1234]

How do you propose they pay for it? Increase property taxes?
That would be up to the people but I would vote for it.

[zelmo1234]

When a teacher is sued for pulling a weapon on a student with a cell phone or for accidentally discharging their weapon (more likely than a school shooting - much more likely) will that tax-free benefit make much of a dent in how much they are going to have to pay?

If a teacher does either one of those things, they will not be a teach but a prisoner, There are so, so few problems with people that choose to conceal carry. And teachers would be a better risk.

And if you post a sign outside of these schools that say that Teachers and Staff armed? No shooter is going to set foot on that campus.

[countryboy]

Teachers are not professional security.
Ummmm.....thanks?

[Peter1469]

I also don't think that most teachers would want to be armed. It would only take a few per school.


Until the investigation is completed by interviews of those present, video cameras and crime scene investigation and a final report given we won't know for sure. Furthermore, there is no guarantee in further incidents that teachers will throw themselves at gunmen nor is there a guarantee that all of them will agree to arm themselves given the enormous responsibility that goes with that task including but not limited to training and liability. I personally spoke with a friend who is a teacher and he want's nothing to do with carrying a weapon in school. Now I realize that not every teacher is going to take the same position on that, but when you factor in everything I can see that not every teacher will be interested in arming themselves.


Better to hire trained professionals to handle security as opposed to depending on your science teacher for security. Just my thoughts on it.

[Cletus]

No, it isn't.

Think we are done here since you can't have a rational debate on the subject.

The thing is, your position is not a rational one.

[Cletus]

Indeed. Experts know the faster one can get good guns into the problem area the lower the friendly casualty rate will be.

The best way to ensure friendly guns in the mix is to invite teachers and staff to volunteer to become sheepdogs.

That is exactly right.

What some here don't seem to get is that even an armed security professional or LEO can only be in one place at a time. A mixture of armed professionals and armed faculty/staff is the ideal solution.

[Adelaide]

If a teacher does either one of those things, they will not be a teach but a prisoner, There are so, so few problems with people that choose to conceal carry. And teachers would be a better risk.

And if you post a sign outside of these schools that say that Teachers and Staff armed? No shooter is going to set foot on that campus.

Yeah, because armed security stops so many crimes in other places (sarcasm)... add a mentally ill perpetrator who isn't going to care to that equation.

[Peter1469]

There was an armed guard at this last shooting. Apparently he didn't engage the shooter. Too bad the gym coach wasn't armed. Then he wouldn't have to use his body as a shield.

[MisterVeritis]

Yeah, because armed security stops so many crimes in other places (sarcasm)... add a mentally ill perpetrator who isn't going to care to that equation.
You have already offered your nonresponse. Thanks.

[gamewell45]

If a teacher does either one of those things, they will not be a teach but a prisoner, There are so, so few problems with people that choose to conceal carry. And teachers would be a better risk.

And if you post a sign outside of these schools that say that Teachers and Staff armed? No shooter is going to set foot on that campus.
There are no guarantee that a shooter won't set foot on campus because you advertise that the teachers and staff are armed; if the person is a nut case and has a suicide wish, he may come on campus, take out as many adults as possible, then work on the unarmed children. Meanwhile you'll have every teacher who is armed running to the site where the shooter is firing their guns recklessly, possibly taking out children in the process. Better to have trained security personnel and/or police department handle security at the schools.

[The Xl]

Not every teacher will be comfortable or capable of handling a gun under immense pressure. Hiring armed professional security is a better idea.

[Peter1469]

Disagree.

If there is a chance that some teachers are armed, it will deter most potential mass shooters.

We have made our schools soft targets, and we are wringing our hands and cry when these soft targets are exploited.


There are no guarantee that a shooter won't set foot on campus because you advertise that the teachers and staff are armed; if the person is a nut case and has a suicide wish, he may come on campus, take out as many adults as possible, then work on the unarmed children. Meanwhile you'll have every teacher who is armed running to the site where the shooter is firing their guns recklessly, possibly taking out children in the process. Better to have trained security personnel and/or police department handle security at the schools.

[Peter1469]

Not every teacher will be comfortable or capable of handling a gun under immense pressure. Hiring armed professional security is a better idea.
All you need is a couple of armed teachers. Not all school districts can afford armed security.

[gamewell45]

Disagree.

If there is a chance that some teachers are armed, it will deter most potential mass shooters.

We have made our schools soft targets, and we are wringing our hands and cry when these soft targets are exploited.

I disagree on this; its one thing to arm a teacher, anyone who has at least one arm can shoot a gun, but what sort of training will these teachers have in order to be allowed? What about liability?

while armed teachers my deter most potential mass shooters who are not nutcases, someone who is a nutcase may take the risk and try to go out in a blaze of glory since they have suicidal thoughts.

Don't you think it would make sense to have trained security/police on site to handle situations like that? That's what they get paid to do whereas teachers are paid to teach.

[Peter1469]

If a school district can afford armed security that is good.

Many can't. That is why I say having a few teachers conceal carry is a good idea. Insurance solves the liability problem.




I disagree on this; its one thing to arm a teacher, anyone who has at least one arm can shoot a gun, but what sort of training will these teachers have in order to be allowed? What about liability?

while armed teachers my deter most potential mass shooters who are not nutcases, someone who is a nutcase may take the risk and try to go out in a blaze of glory since they have suicidal thoughts.

Don't you think it would make sense to have trained security/police on site to handle situations like that? That's what they get paid to do whereas teachers are paid to teach.

[MisterVeritis]

There are no guarantee that a shooter won't set foot on campus because you advertise that the teachers and staff are armed; if the person is a nut case and has a suicide wish, he may come on campus, take out as many adults as possible, then work on the unarmed children. Meanwhile you'll have every teacher who is armed running to the site where the shooter is firing their guns recklessly, possibly taking out children in the process. Better to have trained security personnel and/or police department handle security at the schools.
Offer your suggestion to your local school board. You can wring your hands again after the next school shooting. The "trained security personnel" will not be where the shooting begins.

[MisterVeritis]

Not every teacher will be comfortable or capable of handling a gun under immense pressure. Hiring armed professional security is a better idea.
Very few people are capable or comfortable handling a weapon under pressure. And yet every day ordinary people manage to do exactly that.

Change the laws to shield and encourage people to become armed first responders. School boards may want to buy a small pool of armed security professionals in addition. No matter how many are hired they will never be in the right place at the right time.

This is the low-hanging fruit. We also need an engineered solution. Consider more than one way a perp can try to do harm and engineer an all-around solution.

[Cletus]

Yeah, because armed security stops so many crimes in other places (sarcasm)... add a mentally ill perpetrator who isn't going to care to that equation.

Despite your sarcasm, they actually do.

Like so many others, you don't seem to understand the function of security personnel or police and the differences between the two.

The police are reactive. They respond when a crime has been committed and try to catch the bad guy so he can be brought to justice. Their job is not to protect you or prevent crime. The Supreme Court has ruled in more than one case that police have no obligation to protect the citizenry from harm.

Security guards are proactive. Their job is to prevent incidents that would call for police involvement... to protect people and property.

One of the problems with public perception and understanding of the security industry is that security doesn't produce a tangible product. There is nothing you can hold in your hands and say "This is what security produced". Their success is measured by what DOESN'T happen, not by arrest rates and convictions or the number of widgets produced.

Let me give you an example... A local business has a couple of muggings in its parking lot. They decide to hire a guard to patrol the lot and keep their customers safe. The guard comes in and for 8 weeks, there are no incidents. The business owners looks at that and decides to save some money because 8 weeks without an incident means problem solved, no more need for the guard. The guard is dismissed. 2 weeks later the muggings start again. They being the guard back. A couple of months go by, no muggings, they cut the guard loose again. 2 or 3 weeks later, the muggers are back. Wash, rinse, repeat ad inifinitum.

That is a true example, by the way.

It is not the armed guard's job to get into a shootout and catch the bad guy. It is the guard's job to make the bad guy realize that it is not a good idea to commit his crime at that particular venue, so he goes and finds a softer target.

[Cletus]

There are no guarantee that a shooter won't set foot on campus because you advertise that the teachers and staff are armed; if the person is a nut case and has a suicide wish, he may come on campus, take out as many adults as possible, then work on the unarmed children. Meanwhile you'll have every teacher who is armed running to the site where the shooter is firing their guns recklessly, possibly taking out children in the process. Better to have trained security personnel and/or police department handle security at the schools.

This last shooting was finished in 3 minutes.

The only thing that could have stopped him is a good guy with a gun who was RIGHT THERE when it started. Who is always RIGHT THERE in the classroom or the hallway?

It is faculty and staff. The teachers, the administrators, the custodial staff. If you have a guard on site, that is great, but he can only be in one place at a time. Armed staff and faculty can be spread out through the entire facility. Not every teacher needs to be armed, but if you have enough of them spread around so one can respond in SECONDS instead of MINUTES, a lot of lives can be saved.

The old saying "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" is absolutely true.

[Ransom]

This last shooting was finished in 3 minutes.

The only thing that could have stopped him is a good guy with a gun who was RIGHT THERE when it started. Who is always RIGHT THERE in the classroom or the hallway?

It is faculty and staff. The teachers, the administrators, the custodial staff. If you have a guard on site, that is great, but he can only be in one place at a time. Armed staff and faculty can be spread out through the entire facility. Not every teacher needs to be armed, but if you have enough of them spread around so one can respond in SECONDS instead of MINUTES, a lot of lives can be saved.

The old saying "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" is absolutely true.

Arming teachers in my opinion would be a deterrent, how many of these Shooters pick a school or mall or place of employment because they know there is very little chance someone is armed.

[Cletus]

Arming teachers in my opinion would be a deterrent, how many of these Shooters pick a school or mall or place of employment because they know there is very little chance someone is armed.

Exactly. In order to achieve maximum casualty effect, they pick targets where they are the least likely to meet resistance.

[zelmo1234]

Yeah, because armed security stops so many crimes in other places (sarcasm)... add a mentally ill perpetrator who isn't going to care to that equation.

How many mass shootings have we had in places where there are armed guards

We know that the young lady at the Mall, that stopped the shooter?

so being that they don't go to these places, I think that says a lot

[Ransom]

I was listening to a teacher get interviewed. She was the one that stacked her students into a closet.....it was "hot", she is to be given a medal for bravery and honored by parents as her students all were kept safe.

But.....hiding in the closet.....is about the only option huh? Praying that the killer doesn't select your classroom. Because if he did...and you're there stacked in the closet like sardines.......then it becomes your tomb.

I would have much preferred if this woman had the option to bring 'students' Horace and Daniel to class.

[NapRover]

Improve security and mental health management. They gave a chance to succeed. Repealing the second amendment has no chance at all.

[MisterVeritis]

Many adults displayed bravery. Two died shielding students. What if we had allowed, even encouraged them to become sheepdogs?

I will admit I break into tears when I realize something so simple as encouraging teachers and staff to become sheepdogs willing to take on the wolves could have saved many lives. We have plenty of wolves. And many, many sheep. What we need is the willingness to let some become sheepdogs.

[MisterVeritis]

Improve security and mental health management. They gave a chance to succeed. Repealing the second amendment has no chance at all.
Nor should it. If it is ever repealed it will be passed the time for the Second American Revolution.

[Grokmaster]

Exactly. In order to achieve maximum casualty effect, they pick targets where they are the least likely to meet resistance.

It isn't rocket science, yet it continues to baffle the left...

[Cannons Front]

Arming teachers is an idiotic proposal as every person with a gun during a report of a school shooting should be treated as a suspect by the police who already have enough on their hands to deal with. One of the Florida teachers was killed just trying to secure the door to protect his students. When confronted with this situation, teachers have a duty to secure their students, not play Dirty Harry. It is law enforcement's job to take down the shooter. Arming teachers will get students and teachers killed.

Ok, that is your opinion, but what if One teacher had been armed, maybe they shoot the kid after the first shot, maybe no one dies, maybe only 10 die, maybe only 15 die, maybe we only save one life, is it worth that?

Personally I would prefer a more hardened school building, and trained security. But a few trained teachers could also be an answer, waiting on Police does not always work.