Arming teachers in the classroom will cost kids' lives

[gamewell45]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

[Peter1469]

It is better than having a gun free zone. The guy mentioned tunnel vision when engaging the enemy. You avoid that by breathing deeply.

The coach that used his body as a shield would have been better off with a carry conceal weapon.

[zelmo1234]

He is correct, all those things can happen, but they may not happen. The people that give their lives to protect these kids, It would not likely happen to them. it could but not likely.

I am speaking as a person that has trained hundreds of law enforcement officers on Active shooter Training. What I can tell you is that if you think that our police officers are training on this everyday, you are very mistaken.

With Teachers having over 2 months off in the summer, it would be very easy to put them through the same training that Local and State police officers have been through.

NOW WHAT HE IS NOT TELLING YOU.

OK now we know all of the bad things that could happen to a Teacher trying to stop a threat. What he did not tell you is that as soon as the first return fire shot is taken at the shooter? All of those bad things are likely to happen to him as well.

From the instant that the active shooter hears that first return fire shot, his or her world has completely changed. Because he has to address the threat instead of just shooting fish in a barrel. This means that all of the children that are down range, are no longer his primary target. As a matter of fact he or she is likely not shooting at them but looking to take down the threat to the very thing that he or she wants the most and that is

Add to this the fact that potential shooters only know that the school is protected by trained people with guns and they are not likely going to be willing to take the chance in having a teacher steal their glory

[nathanbforrest45]

Obviously, not having a gun in the class room can and does result in far more kids being killed.

[MisterVeritis]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411
Despite his protests based on his personal experience good guys with guns manage to do the right thing well enough every day. The simple presence of armed teachers and staffs goes a long ways toward ensuring the weapons will not be needed.

The author is fundamentally wrong. I am certain he was a good fit for the Obama Administration.

[gamewell45]

It is better than having a gun free zone. The guy mentioned tunnel vision when engaging the enemy. You avoid that by breathing deeply.

The coach that used his body as a shield would have been better off with a carry conceal weapon.

You know, when you mentioned the coach carrying a concealed weapon it made me wonder what does a woman do if she's wearing a dress? How would she conceal her weapon?

[zelmo1234]

You know, when you mentioned the coach carrying a concealed weapon it made me wonder what does a woman do if she's wearing a dress? How would she conceal her weapon?

http://www.concealedcarrypro.com/images/products/ThighHolsterShorts1.jpg

[Adelaide]

If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).

Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.

[zelmo1234]

If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).

Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.
There are a few things here that I think would surprise you.

#1 How little training there is for police officers that do not seek it out themselves

#2 Just because Teachers have not been trained does not mean that they could not be trained I can't think of an easier group to train because of the fact that they have summers off.

#3 we are not asking teachers to go out on the street and search for bad guys and criminals, they don't have to hunt down people that have committed crimes. What we would be asking them to do is if there is a person shooting at students? shoot back

#4 And this one is huge. These monsters are doing this and selecting these locations because they are in fac gun free zones.

they want to be notices and they want to be on TV The last thing that they want is a hero teacher stealing their thunder. There is a reason these shootings don't happened in blue, they are selected targets and they all have one thing in common. Gun free zone.

[gamewell45]

http://www.concealedcarrypro.com/images/products/ThighHolsterShorts1.jpg

I'd imagine that would work unless the teacher has weight issues.

[zelmo1234]

I'd imagine that would work unless the teacher has weight issues.
They come in all sizes

And when we go out and the Red Head has that dress on with one of these and stockings

https://img0.etsystatic.com/108/1/5895484/il_fullxfull.867950494_1o3h.jpg

That is just hot!

[Chris]

He is correct, all those things can happen, but they may not happen. The people that give their lives to protect these kids, It would not likely happen to them. it could but not likely.

I am speaking as a person that has trained hundreds of law enforcement officers on Active shooter Training. What I can tell you is that if you think that our police officers are training on this everyday, you are very mistaken.

With Teachers having over 2 months off in the summer, it would be very easy to put them through the same training that Local and State police officers have been through.

NOW WHAT HE IS NOT TELLING YOU.

OK now we know all of the bad things that could happen to a Teacher trying to stop a threat. What he did not tell you is that as soon as the first return fire shot is taken at the shooter? All of those bad things are likely to happen to him as well.

From the instant that the active shooter hears that first return fire shot, his or her world has completely changed. Because he has to address the threat instead of just shooting fish in a barrel. This means that all of the children that are down range, are no longer his primary target. As a matter of fact he or she is likely not shooting at them but looking to take down the threat to the very thing that he or she wants the most and that is

Add to this the fact that potential shooters only know that the school is protected by trained people with guns and they are not likely going to be willing to take the chance in having a teacher steal their glory



That was basically going to be my answer: "He is correct, all those things can happen, but they may not happen. The people that give their lives to protect these kids, It would not likely happen to them. it could but not likely."


The OP article's author says, and this is his main argument: "You can teach someone the basics of marksmanship pretty quickly — like how to be safe and how to hit a target. But you can't quickly teach them to fight and kill reflexively and instinctively. Most importantly, you can't quickly train them to stand their ground when faced with a mortal threat. That's a completely different skill."

But he is his own counterargument for he was trained to fight and did so.

Sure, some might not, but we're talking probabilities and any probability is a possibility of saving lives.

[stjames1_53]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

the staff that carries in the Texas school are required to run quals two to three times a year. they get the same training the police force gets. Only those who pass the psych evals get to proceed through the system. Their backgrounds are thoroughly researched.....hell, the go through everything but police academy. They do not have the power to arrest.

[Cletus]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411 I read it. He is wrong. Normal, even untrained people use firearms defensively quite often. More often than not, they never even have to pull the trigger. Those that do, generally accomplish their goal. Yes, of course you develop tunnel vision, but it isn't just training that snaps you out of it. It is also instinct. I teach people to break their tunnel vision in every defensive pistol class I teach. It is as simple as conducting a scan after the threat is neutralized.

He is wrong in his conclusions. Sometimes, amateurs should listen and not talk.

[Peter1469]

You know, when you mentioned the coach carrying a concealed weapon it made me wonder what does a woman do if she's wearing a dress? How would she conceal her weapon?

Garter belt. With a nice .380.

[zelmo1234]

Garter belt. With a nice .380.
She is 5.8 And very qualified with a firearm

http://www.waltherarms.com/wp-content/uploads/Walther_PPQ-M2_9mm2.jpg

[Peter1469]

The NRA would be more than happy to provide summer training to teach volunteers. If properly trained, armed teachers would clearly not cause more deaths. They would only take a shot if it was a clear shot. If there was no clear shot, then you have the current status quo.

There is a guy from Nevada who goes to every state that has carry conceal deals with his state, and he provides excellent training for not only shooting, but dealing with real life events and dealing with law enforcement after you iced a nogooknick.
If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).

Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.

[Tahuyaman]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

He seems to believe that after seven years of training, he once froze so everyone will. But yes, it's his opinion and it's no more valid than an opinion which counters his.

Having an armed presence on campus is also intended to be a deterrent. It's not a coincidence that these mass shootings take place in places where the shooter knows he will receive no armed resistance.

It is clear that we need a quick reaction type armed presence on many of our high school and college campuses. I would prefer that security is provided by trained professionals, but qualified teachers or staff could augment that security.

[Peter1469]

Stop over medicating our kids and see this problem drop to near zero if not complete zero.


There are a few things here that I think would surprise you.

#1 How little training there is for police officers that do not seek it out themselves

#2 Just because Teachers have not been trained does not mean that they could not be trained I can't think of an easier group to train because of the fact that they have summers off.

#3 we are not asking teachers to go out on the street and search for bad guys and criminals, they don't have to hunt down people that have committed crimes. What we would be asking them to do is if there is a person shooting at students? shoot back

#4 And this one is huge. These monsters are doing this and selecting these locations because they are in fac gun free zones.

they want to be notices and they want to be on TV The last thing that they want is a hero teacher stealing their thunder. There is a reason these shootings don't happened in blue, they are selected targets and they all have one thing in common. Gun free zone.

[Peter1469]

I'd imagine that would work unless the teacher has weight issues.

A moo moo dress can conceal a lot.

[zelmo1234]

A moo moo dress can conceal a lot.
Give me a Moo Moo and I will give you a great Shotgun that will end things in record time.

[nathanbforrest45]

You know, when you mentioned the coach carrying a concealed weapon it made me wonder what does a woman do if she's wearing a dress? How would she conceal her weapon?https://thewellarmedwoman.com/

[MisterVeritis]

Stop over medicating our kids and see this problem drop to near zero if not complete zero.
A case can be made that we need to once again lock up crazy people.

[nathanbforrest45]

If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone). Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.How many teachers have accidentally shot a student in their class? The emphasis on the shooter having more firepower is irrelevant. A well placed 22 caliber round will stop someone with a machine gun.

[nathanbforrest45]

https://thewellarmedwoman.com/concealed-carry/top-selling-womens-holsters-of-2015/

[countryboy]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

This is as far as I got. Why should I read any further, when a person who is supposedly trained with military style small arms, makes such an obvious, and blatant mischaracterization? Serious question.


Fast forward to last week. A disturbed individual murders 17 people at a Parkland, Fla., high school using a weapon nearly identical to the one I used.

[Cannons Front]

Ok one item at a time


If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths.

Statistically based on what?
According to the CDC, in 2011†, of 32,351 deaths due to firearms, 591 deaths were due to "accidental discharge" and an additional 248 due to "undetermined intent"[1 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_03.pdf)]. Compare this to 19,990 suicides and 11,068 homicides by firearms in the same year, and we find that the percentage of deaths due to firearms that was either unintentional or indeterminate is very small (2.59%). Latest information I could find from the CDC, but less than 3% of firearms deaths are unintentional. So what do you base your "much more likely" on?



They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).
Currently I would say that the pool of Armed Teachers is so small that you can not base anything on their level of training.
However if you look at CCW holders your assumptions are completely off. Many LEOs only Qualify once or twice a year with their service weapon, many do not shoot much other than that. CCW holders generally are people who enjoy gun shooting and go to the range monthly or more. Paul Van Blarcum the Sheriff of Ulster County, New York in 2012 publicly stated "In light of recent events that have occurred in the United States and around the world I want to encourage citizens of Ulster County who are licensed to carry a firearm to PLEASE DO SO.”"I think the people that are out there who do carry concealed right now are at least as proficient with their weapons as police officers are. Actually, my deputies have to qualify with their pistols twice a year and for many of them that’s all the shooting they do; whereas, people who chose to carry are typically into guns, so they shoot more and are probably even better with their weapons than most cops are.”


Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

Training can reduce that, insurance and laws can cover that.




School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.

If "School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths" then why now are people, including you using this event to push for outlawing or restricting our Constitutional Freedoms?

[Peter1469]

A case can be made that we need to once again lock up crazy people.

That is true; but I think over medication is a bigger problem.

[Ethereal]

Pure sophistry.

Nobody questions the propriety of using armed security to guard banks, courthouses, entertainment venues, and the very politicians who want to limit our rights.

Yet when the issue of armed security at schools comes up, it suddenly becomes dangerous and impractical.

The fact that armed security is an imperfect method of security is not a valid objection either. Sometimes people who wear seat-belts still die in car crashes, but nobody would argue that is a good reason to go without wearing seat-belts.

Of course, when you're hellbent on banning guns like the author of this article, you will see any solution that doesn't involve banning guns as illegitimate.

[Ethereal]

It is better than having a gun free zone. The guy mentioned tunnel vision when engaging the enemy. You avoid that by breathing deeply.

The coach that used his body as a shield would have been better off with a carry conceal weapon.

The coach was brave enough to sacrifice his life in defense of these kids, yet we're supposed to believe he would have been too scared to engage the enemy with a firearm.

We will never know the outcome of an alternate reality, but we can at least say his chances would have been significantly improved.

The point of armed security isn't 100% success 100% of the time, the point of armed security is to optimize one's chances of survival.

[nathanbforrest45]

To paraphrase Al CaponeHarsh words and a gun will get you a lot further than harsh words.One of the fathers at the meeting with President Donald Trump stated he found it absolutely insane that there was an armed security guard in the elevator at the school board building but none at his daughter's school. So, the teachers and administrators who have never been attacked by a deranged gunman are to be protected but students who have been are not?????What sense does that make?

[nathanbforrest45]

I do not understand why my post are jumbled together.

[ripmeister]

I don't see this so much as the risk of an accidental shooting by a teacher rather as the situation in which law enforcement arrives and sees multiple people brandishing guns. What happens then?

[ripmeister]

To paraphrase Al CaponeHarsh words and a gun will get you a lot further than harsh words.One of the fathers at the meeting with President Donald Trump stated he found it absolutely insane that there was an armed security guard in the elevator at the school board building but none at his daughter's school. So, the teachers and administrators who have never been attacked by a deranged gunman are to be protected but students who have been are not?????What sense does that make?

Makes about as much sense as pols who criticize no gun zones yet have them when it matters in their case. The Capitol Building and the WH come to mind. I mean if arming up is the answer then why not locales such as this as well. Hmmmmm.

[Mister D]

Makes about as much sense as pols who criticize no gun zones yet have them when it matters in their case. The Capitol Building and the WH come to mind. I mean if arming up is the answer then why not locales such as this as well. Hmmmmm.
Washington pols don't have armed security?

[Captdon]

If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).

Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.

One .30 caliber bullet fired by anyone is enough to stop any shooter.

[Captdon]

That was basically going to be my answer: "He is correct, all those things can happen, but they may not happen. The people that give their lives to protect these kids, It would not likely happen to them. it could but not likely."


The OP article's author says, and this is his main argument: "You can teach someone the basics of marksmanship pretty quickly — like how to be safe and how to hit a target. But you can't quickly teach them to fight and kill reflexively and instinctively. Most importantly, you can't quickly train them to stand their ground when faced with a mortal threat. That's a completely different skill."

But he is his own counterargument for he was trained to fight and did so.

Sure, some might not, but we're talking probabilities and any probability is a possibility of saving lives.

Very few cops ever face a shooting situation and very few ever fire a shot on duty.

[ripmeister]

Washington pols don't have armed security?
I imagine they do, so why the ban where they work. I mean if you are for arming up you are for arming up.

[Captdon]

I don't see this so much as the risk of an accidental shooting by a teacher rather as the situation in which law enforcement arrives and sees multiple people brandishing guns. What happens then?

As soon as the police arrive, the good guys put their weapons down. The cops don't arrive quietly.

[Mister D]

I imagine they do, so why the ban where they work. I mean if you are for arming up you are for arming up.
So there are armed guards around them, right? Now what role do armed teachers play in this scenario?

[gamewell45]

A moo moo dress can conceal a lot.

Is that like a grass skirt?

[gamewell45]

https://thewellarmedwoman.com/

Pretty cool website; just about anything you need, they have.

[Tahuyaman]

A moo moo dress can conceal a lot. Lol......

[gamewell45]

This is as far as I got. Why should I read any further, when a person who is supposedly trained with military style small arms, makes such an obvious, and blatant mischaracterization? Serious question.

.
If you don't like what you see or read, then don't finish the article. Sometimes I do that, so no biggie.

[Common]

I was at one time against teachers having guns. Now Im for it as long as they are trained to be proficient with what they carry and know gun safety. A good guy with a gun thats clueless about gun safety or cant hit himself in the foot is worth nothing

[countryboy]

If you don't like what you see or read, then don't finish the article. Sometimes I do that, so no biggie.

You dont think it's an important point? Do you care?

[Grokmaster]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

Bullshit. No one wants to arm incompetent, terrified of guns, leftidiots.

Just COMPETENT (non-leftists as a rule) people, on a voluntary basis. Teachers are ALREADY stepping up to do this.

[ripmeister]

As soon as the police arrive, the good guys put their weapons down. The cops don't arrive quietly.
Somehow I don't think it would always be that clear and simple. Just something to think about.

[ripmeister]

So there are armed guards around them, right? Now what role do armed teachers play in this scenario?

Having the protection of armed guards around them is even more reason to not have the bans yet they still do. Besides you aren't answering my original question. Why are guns banned at their workplace?

[MisterVeritis]

As soon as the police arrive, the good guys put their weapons down. The cops don't arrive quietly.

Somehow I don't think it would always be that clear and simple. Just something to think about.
This is a mere detail. It can be worked out by the two parties that are involved.

[MisterVeritis]

Having the protection of armed guards around them is even more reason to not have the bans yet they still do. Besides you aren't answering my original question. Why are guns banned at their workplace?
I do not believe yours is an honest inquiry.

[Mister D]

Having the protection of armed guards around them is even more reason to not have the bans yet they still do. Besides you aren't answering my original question. Why are guns banned at their workplace?

What? Anyway, they're trying to prevent pols from being shot by assassins but they don't rely on "gun free zones". They rely on armed protection.

Seriously, did that really need to be explained?

Let's try this again.

What role do teachers play in this scenario? Are they like the pols or the armed guards?

[zelmo1234]

Having the protection of armed guards around them is even more reason to not have the bans yet they still do. Besides you aren't answering my original question. Why are guns banned at their workplace?
Because when you have armed security to the extent that they have in these buildings the wrong guy is going ot get kill

[Mister D]

I do not believe yours is an honest inquiry.
And that wasn't rip's "original question". We were asked why pols have "gun free zones" around them without realizing they're only gun free for visitors.

[ripmeister]

Bull$#@!. No one wants to arm incompetent, terrified of guns, leftidiots.

Just COMPETENT (non-leftists as a rule) people, on a voluntary basis. Teachers are ALREADY stepping up to do this.
That's kinda funny. I thought those on the right generally see teachers as liberals.

[ripmeister]

As soon as the police arrive, the good guys put their weapons down. The cops don't arrive quietly.

This is a mere detail. It can be worked out by the two parties that are involved.
Check :rollseyes:

[ripmeister]

I do not believe yours is an honest inquiry.
In what way? It was a simple question?

[ripmeister]

What? Anyway, they're trying to prevent pols from being shot by assassins but they don't rely on "gun free zones". They rely on armed protection.

Seriously, did that really need to be explained?

Let's try this again.

What role do teachers play in this scenario? Are they like the pols or the armed guards?
You are trying to change the focus of my initial query, a common strategy of yours that I've noticed. Of course they are there for protection, so answer the question. In light of that why are guns banned at the Capitol by those who criticize gun free zones in other walks of life.

[MisterVeritis]

I do not believe yours is an honest inquiry.

In what way? It was a simple question?
To be blunt, I do not believe you are stupid but do believe you are deceptive.

[Peter1469]

Fear is a natural response to aggression. Tunnel vision is a symptom of that fear. You counter it by taking very deep breaths to get lots of oxygen into your system.
The coach was brave enough to sacrifice his life in defense of these kids, yet we're supposed to believe he would have been too scared to engage the enemy with a firearm.

We will never know the outcome of an alternate reality, but we can at least say his chances would have been significantly improved.

The point of armed security isn't 100% success 100% of the time, the point of armed security is to optimize one's chances of survival.

[ripmeister]

And that wasn't rip's "original question". We were asked why pols have "gun free zones" around them without realizing they're only gun free for visitors.
You are mischaracterizing once again. Of course its gun free for visitors and of course they have their armed guards yet they question the legitimacy of gun free zones outside of their realm. Kinda curious if you ask me.

[Peter1469]

I don't see this so much as the risk of an accidental shooting by a teacher rather as the situation in which law enforcement arrives and sees multiple people brandishing guns. What happens then?

The cops would know that a school has armed teachers. And know the identities of those armed teachers. The armed teachers who know from their training that when cops arrive stand down and don't present a threat to the cops.

[ripmeister]

I do not believe yours is an honest inquiry.

To be blunt, I do not believe you are stupid but do believe you are deceptive.

It was an honest question. Whether you believe that or not or believe me to be deceptive is beyond my control.

[zelmo1234]

You are trying to change the focus of my initial query, a common strategy of yours that I've noticed. Of course they are there for protection, so answer the question. In light of that why are guns banned at the Capitol by those who criticize gun free zones in other walks of life.

When you have as much security as you have in places like the Capital, and remember there is a lot more security than you see, including private security that don't have to leave there weapons at home.

So when you have a situation like this, a private citizen does not know how to react to there procedures and policies. When you have a School where there is NO security , the citizens is trained to get someone on the phone with the police and turn the situation over to them upon their arrival.

[MisterVeritis]

You are mischaracterizing once again. Of course its gun free for visitors and of course they have their armed guards yet they question the legitimacy of gun free zones outside of their realm. Kinda curious if you ask me.
Deceptive. Why do you try to deceive?

[Peter1469]

Is that like a grass skirt?

A fat person's dress.

[MisterVeritis]

I do not believe you are stupid but do believe you are deceptive.

It was an honest question. Whether you believe that or not or believe me to be deceptive is beyond my control.
Let's see. Stupid or deceptive?

[ripmeister]

The cops would know that a school has armed teachers. And know the identities of those armed teachers. The armed teachers who know from their training that when cops arrive stand down and don't present a threat to the cops.

In theory, perhaps. In an adrenalin filled situation with an active shooter in the fray I question whether reality would equate with the theory regardless of ones level of training.

[MisterVeritis]

In theory, perhaps. In an adrenalin filled situation with an active shooter in the fray I question whether reality would equate with the theory regardless of ones level of training.
Fortunately, it will not rely on your understanding.

[ripmeister]

I do not believe you are stupid but do believe you are deceptive.

Let's see. Stupid or deceptive?

Think what you will. Mr. V, predictable.

[MisterVeritis]

Think what you will. Mr. V, predictable.
Thank you. I shall. No one is confused by your deceptions.

[Peter1469]

In theory, perhaps. In an adrenalin filled situation with an active shooter in the fray I question whether reality would equate with the theory regardless of ones level of training.

True. But it is still a better solution that leaving schools gun free kill zones.

There is no perfect solution.

[ripmeister]

True. But it is still a better solution that leaving schools gun free kill zones.

There is no perfect solution.
I would agree that there is no perfect solution.

[nathanbforrest45]

Is that like a grass skirt?https://www.etsy.com/market/moo_moo_dress

[suds00]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?

[Peter1469]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?
One would hope the teacher would have it on her body and not left unattended somewhere.

[Grokmaster]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?

Only if they are idiot kids raised with no knowledge of firearms. Probably cut off their own appendages with power tools, too...

[Tahuyaman]

Give me a Moo Moo and I will give you a great Shotgun that will end things in record time.
Moo moo's are meant for disgusting obese women.

[Peter1469]

Only if they are idiot kids raised with no knowledge of firearms. Probably cut off their own appendages with power tools, too...

True. Where I grew up guns were a cultural norm. Fathers trained their kids on safe use- harshly.

And my dad had his fathers power tools which had zero safety features of modern power tools. I never cut my fingers or hands off using them.

[gamewell45]

You dont think it's an important point? Do you care?

Honestly no. When I find an article that I think will be of interest to the forum I will generally post it. Sometimes I take no position on some of the articles at times. I don't expect everyone to embrace and agree with what I post as well. You stated your reason for not continuing to read the article which I respect and accept. In my book you are entitled to your viewpoint. Not much more to be said i guess.

[gamewell45]

Bull$#@!. No one wants to arm incompetent, terrified of guns, leftidiots.

Just COMPETENT (non-leftists as a rule) people, on a voluntary basis. Teachers are ALREADY stepping up to do this.

Alright then. :)

[gamewell45]

A fat person's dress.

LMAO..Okay I get the picture.

[countryboy]

Honestly no. When I find an article that I think will be of interest to the forum I will generally post it. Sometimes I take no position on some of the articles at times. I don't expect everyone to embrace and agree with what I post as well. You stated your reason for not continuing to read the article which I respect and accept. In my book you are entitled to your viewpoint. Not much more to be said i guess.

Fair enough, but I would think you'd be at least a little concerned about disseminating misinformation. :icon_scratch:

[Mister D]

You are trying to change the focus of my initial query, a common strategy of yours that I've noticed. Of course they are there for protection, so answer the question. In light of that why are guns banned at the Capitol by those who criticize gun free zones in other walks of life.

There are no truly "gun free zones" at the Capitol genius! Lots of people have guns. Capitol critters wouldn't have it any other way. The hypocrites you need to call out are those who call for gun free zones while being protected by armed guards but you managed to butcher reason and logic once again. It's a pattern I've noticed.

[Docthehun]

It is better than having a gun free zone. The guy mentioned tunnel vision when engaging the enemy. You avoid that by breathing deeply.

The coach that used his body as a shield would have been better off with a carry conceal weapon.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Instead of shielding kids, he'd become a combatant and not a well trained one at that.

[Docthehun]

Obviously, not having a gun in the class room can and does result in far more kids being killed.

Based on what data? SWAG?

[Docthehun]

There are a few things here that I think would surprise you.

#1 How little training there is for police officers that do not seek it out themselves

#2 Just because Teachers have not been trained does not mean that they could not be trained I can't think of an easier group to train because of the fact that they have summers off.

#3 we are not asking teachers to go out on the street and search for bad guys and criminals, they don't have to hunt down people that have committed crimes. What we would be asking them to do is if there is a person shooting at students? shoot back

#4 And this one is huge. These monsters are doing this and selecting these locations because they are in fac gun free zones.

they want to be notices and they want to be on TV The last thing that they want is a hero teacher stealing their thunder. There is a reason these shootings don't happened in blue, they are selected targets and they all have one thing in common. Gun free zone.

The "HUGE" #4 Support data please. Or would that be just your opinion?

[nathanbforrest45]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?

One does not envision every teacher in the school being armed. That would be recipe for disaster since a large portion would not know one end from the other. However, there would be a cadre of highly trained teachers and staff that would be armed. Probably their identities would be kept secret and the kids would have no idea who was and who wasn't armed. As for "springing into action" that is pure hyperbole.

In your opinion if a student suddenly starting stabbing other students should the teacher simply say in her most authoritarian teacher voice "Stop or I'll take your name"?

[nathanbforrest45]

Based on what data? SWAG?

17 dead kids in Parkland Florida for starters.

5 accidental shooting victims including 3 that were not shot but hit by flying glass and a chemistry teacher who accidentally shot himself.

[nathanbforrest45]

The "HUGE" #4 Support data please. Or would that be just your opinion?

Why do you think they are targeting specific schools?

[Docthehun]

17 dead kids in Parkland Florida for starters.

The armed deputy stayed outside the building.

[Docthehun]

Why do you think they are targeting specific schools?

A personal beef with the school, like in Parkland where he'd been expelled.

[MisterVeritis]

The armed deputy stayed outside the building.
That school put 17 eggs in one basket.

Imagine the options for an armed response if teachers and staff were appropriately armed.

Not every teacher will want to be armed. But some will choose to carry a concealed weapon. Some will flee. Some will fire wildly. And one will be a warrior.

It seems better than the alternative of posting signs to say "unarmed victims may be found inside. Come on in."

[Peter1469]

Maybe yes, maybe no. Instead of shielding kids, he'd become a combatant and not a well trained one at that.

Unbelievable. If he went through proper training he would be much better served armed, than unarmed. As would the students he died to protect.

If America is going to fracture over this issue, those against the 2nd Amendment are at a big disadvantage. :shocked:

[Docthehun]

That school put 17 eggs in one basket.

Imagine the options for an armed response if teachers and staff were appropriately armed.

Not every teacher will want to be armed. But some will choose to carry a concealed weapon. Some will flee. Some will fire wildly. And one will be a warrior.

It seems better than the alternative of posting signs to say "unarmedvictimsm may be found inside. Come on in."

If you want guns in school, don't ask teachers to be cops or soldiers. Get out the checkbook and put cops (and/or troops) in every school, along with metal detectors.

[MisterVeritis]

If you want guns in school, don't ask teachers to be cops or soldiers. Get out the checkbook and put cops (and/or troops) in every school, along with metal detectors.
If that is the solution your local school board approves have at it.

Each local school board will have to assess risks versus costs and develop individual approaches.

[gamewell45]

Fair enough, but I would think you'd be at least a little concerned about disseminating misinformation. :icon_scratch:

I think the media has a responsibility to the American people to disseminate the truth without putting on any political spin on it. At one time, the media was respected for the most part, unfortunately that has changed over the past 30 years or so, where money and ratings/sales became paramount over objective reporting that most Americans were used to hearing.

I've very recently toyed with the idea of forming a news organization where no political spin is put on the news disseminated, just the real facts and allow the listeners/viewers decide for themselves. I think this is what America needs to regain faith in the media.

[Docthehun]

Unbelievable. If he went through proper training he would be much better served armed, than unarmed. As would the students he died to protect.

If America is going to fracture over this issue, those against the 2nd Amendment are at a big disadvantage. :shocked:

Concur that one is generally better off with a gun. Most teachers I know work summers to make a decent living. A few teachers would be great in this role, if properly trained. There's a K-3 building a couple 100 feet from my house. This year, there isn't a single male adult in the building. I know all the teachers and I can't imagine any of them wants to carry a gun to school.

It's truly sad we've reached this point in our society. I don't think anything will really change. We've already had this debate a hundred times.

[Docthehun]

If that is the solution your local school board approves have at it.

Each local school board will have to assess risks versus costs and develop individual approaches.

Poor school districts have buildings that are falling apart.

[countryboy]

I think the media has a responsibility to the American people to disseminate the truth without putting on any political spin on it. At one time, the media was respected for the most part, unfortunately that has changed over the past 30 years or so, where money and ratings/sales became paramount over objective reporting that most Americans were used to hearing.

I've very recently toyed with the idea of forming a news organization where no political spin is put on the news disseminated, just the real facts and allow the listeners/viewers decide for themselves. I think this is what America needs to regain faith in the media.

No offense, but I don't think you could pull it off. I'm not sure anyone could. One person's "real facts", are another's political spin. Many liberals actually believe NPR is unbiased.

[Cletus]

As soon as the police arrive, the good guys put their weapons down. The cops don't arrive quietly.

This is a mere detail. It can be worked out by the two parties that are involved.

That is why it is important for the entities involved in security to train together. The cops need to know who the armed staff are and procedures need to be worked out to make sure the good guys don't shoot each other.

It is in fact, a simple detail.

[gamewell45]

No offense, but I don't think you could pull it off. I'm not sure anyone could. One person's "real facts", are another's political spin. Many liberals actually believe NPR is unbiased.

No offense taken; however one can set a goal and work to achieve it. If it does't work, then at least i'll know that I tried but if I don't try, then I'll never know if I could have pulled it off.

[Docthehun]

I'm sure the teachers would agree......or not.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/cf4fba2b-0afd-33d9-a059-4fa53bdfcdc9/teachers%27-groups-reject.html

[MisterVeritis]

Poor school districts have buildings that are falling apart.
While interesting it has no bearing on every other school district. Each school board should grapple with the issues and come to its own conclusions.

[Cletus]

You are trying to change the focus of my initial query, a common strategy of yours that I've noticed. Of course they are there for protection, so answer the question. In light of that why are guns banned at the Capitol by those who criticize gun free zones in other walks of life.

That is simple.

Politicians value their own lives above your own. I love it when I am at a venue where I am the only guy in the room with a gun... supposedly. :cool2:

[Dr. Who]

http://www.concealedcarrypro.com/images/products/ThighHolsterShorts1.jpg

Yeah, women are really going to want to wear that sweaty get up under their clothes in warm weather, not to mention the abrasions to their other inner thigh from having a gun between them. Newsflash - some women don't actually have a space between their thighs! They would be walking around like they were wearing a full diaper.

[countryboy]

No offense taken; however one can set a goal and work to achieve it. If it does't work, then at least i'll know that I tried but if I don't try, then I'll never know if I could have pulled it off.

I would certainly encourage you to try, and applaud your efforts. I would celebrate bigly if you were to prove me wrong. No sarcasm, I mean it.

[zelmo1234]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?
This is a very good question and for someone that does not live the concealed carry lifestyle it is confusing.

#1 you are not looking to get into a gun fight. My gun is a lot like my Wrist Watch it is just another accessory that I wear. The idea is that nobody knows that I have it on. Many times I have been in a conversation where people have told me they would not hang around people that carried a gun. I just tell them that I don't have that view, but I never tell them that I carry all the time. So the students should not know which teachers are carrying and which ones are not.

#2 the only safe place to carry a firearms is on your person in my opinion. So the Teachers would have it on their person and the students would not know which teachers were the ones that were CCW.

#3 If shots ring out, the teachers would react to the situation.... with an active shooter that mean a lot of things. but there will be teachers that will be assigned to hold fast and protect the children in their classroom and others that will be the ones running toward danger to put and end to the situation

[Peter1469]

If you want guns in school, don't ask teachers to be cops or soldiers. Get out the checkbook and put cops (and/or troops) in every school, along with metal detectors.

Many schools around here have done that.

I don't think that anyone has advocated for mandating that teachers carry conceal. That is a stupid concept. The proposals have been for teachers to volunteer for it and go through extensive training (they can do that in the summer when they are getting paid to do nothing).

[Peter1469]

I think the media has a responsibility to the American people to disseminate the truth without putting on any political spin on it. At one time, the media was respected for the most part, unfortunately that has changed over the past 30 years or so, where money and ratings/sales became paramount over objective reporting that most Americans were used to hearing.

I've very recently toyed with the idea of forming a news organization where no political spin is put on the news disseminated, just the real facts and allow the listeners/viewers decide for themselves. I think this is what America needs to regain faith in the media.

One American News is like that- the news parts of their program. They will give the facts and nothing else. A news story that CNN would spend 15 minutes on (with lots of media bias) OMN will deal with in 3 minutes with zero bias.

They also have commentary and of course that is biased.

[zelmo1234]

Yeah, women are really going to want to wear that sweaty get up under their clothes in warm weather, not to mention the abrasions to their other inner thigh from having a gun between them. Newsflash - some women don't actually have a space between their thighs! They would be walking around like they were wearing a full diaper.

They come in a lot of different weights and the place where the pistol goes comes in a lot of places too. But my Red head tells me that they are comfortable and she carries everyday. Most of the time she uses something like this.

I can tell you that she is not all sweaty under it, that I can promise....

but Conceal carry is not for the lazy or people that do not understand what is involved.

We here people tell us all the time that they are willing to give up a lot to keep these children safe. And maybe a little comfort is not to much to give up.

[Dr. Who]

The cops would know that a school has armed teachers. And know the identities of those armed teachers. The armed teachers who know from their training that when cops arrive stand down and don't present a threat to the cops.
Swat team might not get the pictures of the teachers in time - then what?

[MisterVeritis]

Swat team might not get the pictures of the teachers in time - then what?
Why do you behave as if everything is brand new?

[Peter1469]

I agree that most teachers would not want to be armed. My position, is that those who do, and could pass a training program should be.
Concur that one is generally better off with a gun. Most teachers I know work summers to make a decent living. A few teachers would be great in this role, if properly trained. There's a K-3 building a couple 100 feet from my house. This year, there isn't a single male adult in the building. I know all the teachers and I can't imagine any of them wants to carry a gun to school.

It's truly sad we've reached this point in our society. I don't think anything will really change. We've already had this debate a hundred times.

[Cletus]

In theory, perhaps. In an adrenalin filled situation with an active shooter in the fray I question whether reality would equate with the theory regardless of ones level of training.

That is always possible, but it does not have to be probable. Blue on Blue shootings are not exactly rare. Fortunately, they are not common, but they do happen.

One of the things the teachers would need to be trained to do is when the cops show up, do EXACTLY what they say. They may very well put them face down, disarmed and even cuffed, but that is okay. It is better than being shot by a cop who at that moment does not know the good guys from the bad guys. It may take a couple of minutes to sort things out, so until everybody knows who everybody is, do exactly as the police tell you and do it without argument or explanation.

There is an old saying... When the police show up, think fast and move slow. No sudden movements. No attempts to explain who you are. Just do as they say until they feel secure, then you can say Howdy and all get acquainted.
It really is just a matter of training.

[Dr. Who]

This is a very good question and for someone that does not live the concealed carry lifestyle it is confusing.

#1 you are not looking to get into a gun fight. My gun is a lot like my Wrist Watch it is just another accessory that I wear. The idea is that nobody knows that I have it on. Many times I have been in a conversation where people have told me they would not hang around people that carried a gun. I just tell them that I don't have that view, but I never tell them that I carry all the time. So the students should not know which teachers are carrying and which ones are not.

#2 the only safe place to carry a firearms is on your person in my opinion. So the Teachers would have it on their person and the students would not know which teachers were the ones that were CCW.

#3 If shots ring out, the teachers would react to the situation.... with an active shooter that mean a lot of things. but there will be teachers that will be assigned to hold fast and protect the children in their classroom and others that will be the ones running toward danger to put and end to the situation
Might work for male teachers, but probably not because many schools are not air-conditioned and without a jacket, where are you hiding your gun other than your ankle? Kids are not stupid. When the teacher sits down, that ankle gun will be exposed. Then there are female teachers. Again, no jacket. If wearing a skirt, no ankle holster and don't tell me a bra holster is invisible unless the woman is very hefty. Forget the thigh holster. No woman wants to walk around with a pound of metal between her thighs. She'd be permanently bruised.

[Cletus]

Maybe yes, maybe no. Instead of shielding kids, he'd become a combatant and not a well trained one at that.

And it could have ended worse for him... how?

A gun would have given him a chance. Maybe not a great chance, but even a small chance is better than no chance.

[Peter1469]

Swat team might not get the pictures of the teachers in time - then what?

Pay attention to the second part.

Once Cops or SWAT arrives the armed staff stands down.

This isn't rocket science.

[MisterVeritis]

Pay attention to the second part.
Once Cops or SWAT arrives the armed staff stands down.
This isn't rocket science.
It is almost as if they would be armed first responders.

[Cletus]

can a teacher teach knowing that he or she must spring into action at any time during the day to stop a shooting.also won't kids be curious regarding where the gun is in the classroom,finding it and shooting it?

Why wouldn't he?

[Dr. Who]

They come in a lot of different weights and the place where the pistol goes comes in a lot of places too. But my Red head tells me that they are comfortable and she carries everyday. Most of the time she uses something like this.

I can tell you that she is not all sweaty under it, that I can promise....

but Conceal carry is not for the lazy or people that do not understand what is involved.

We here people tell us all the time that they are willing to give up a lot to keep these children safe. And maybe a little comfort is not to much to give up.
I thought your wife is a doctor - is she carrying when she's in scrubs in the hospital? Is her office air conditioned? Is she on her feet most of the day?

[Peter1469]

In the military, a part of SERE training covers what happens if you are rescued from from a hostage situation. You are presumed to be an enemy until they can verify your ID. Expect to be handled roughly. Don't resit or you may end up in the hospital or dead.
That is always possible, but it does not have to be probable. Blue on Blue shootings are not exactly rare. Fortunately, they are not common, but they do happen.

One of the things the teachers would need to be trained to do is when the cops show up, do EXACTLY what they say. They may very well put them face down, disarmed and even cuffed, but that is okay. It is better than being shot by a cop who at that moment does not know the good guys from the bad guys. It may take a couple of minutes to sort things out, so until everybody knows who everybody is, do exactly as the police tell you and do it without argument or explanation.

There is an old saying... When the police show up, think fast and move slow. No sudden movements. No attempts to explain who you are. Just do as they say until they feel secure, then you can say Howdy and all get acquainted.
It really is just a matter of training.

[Cletus]

Based on what data? SWAG?

Based on simple reason. No gun means no means of defense which means the bad guy can kill as many people as he wants until a good guy with a gun shows up to stop him.

[Cletus]

The armed deputy stayed outside the building.

Since he has been terminated, it would be interesting if he spoke up to say why he did that.

I have my suspicions and would really like for him to confirm or refute them.

[Dr. Who]

Pay attention to the second part.

Once Cops or SWAT arrives the armed staff stands down.

This isn't rocket science.
Sounds great, unless SWAT arrives and the teachers are too busy shooting and being shot at, to notice. Given that some teachers hardly look older than the kids and often don't dress much differently ....

[Cletus]

I think the media has a responsibility to the American people to disseminate the truth without putting on any political spin on it. At one time, the media was respected for the most part, unfortunately that has changed over the past 30 years or so, where money and ratings/sales became paramount over objective reporting that most Americans were used to hearing.

I've very recently toyed with the idea of forming a news organization where no political spin is put on the news disseminated, just the real facts and allow the listeners/viewers decide for themselves. I think this is what America needs to regain faith in the media.

If you could do it, you would deserve whatever success comes your way. It would be a great thing.

Unfortunately, I think most people today would rather be entertained than informed.

[Cletus]

Swat team might not get the pictures of the teachers in time - then what?

That is not even really an issue.

[Cletus]

Yeah, women are really going to want to wear that sweaty get up under their clothes in warm weather, not to mention the abrasions to their other inner thigh from having a gun between them. Newsflash - some women don't actually have a space between their thighs! They would be walking around like they were wearing a full diaper.

There is no need to wear a rig like that.

Women's fashions do put them at a disadvantage when it comes to concealed carry. There is no doubt of that.

There are all kinds of ways around that. And no, it would not be necessary for an armed teacher to physically have a gun on his or her person all the time. A firearm in a secure container would work just as well in the situation we are discussing.

[gamewell45]

If you could do it, you would deserve whatever success comes your way. It would be a great thing.

Unfortunately, I think most people today would rather be entertained than informed.

It would no doubt be a daunting task, but it would be nice to bask in knowing you've done something to bring back some credibility to the media.
Peter1469 mentioned a news outlet called "One American News" which I think bears looking into to see what they do news-wise.

[Peter1469]

Sounds great, unless SWAT arrives and the teachers are too busy shooting and being shot at, to notice. Given that some teachers hardly look older than the kids and often don't dress much differently ....
SWAT doesn't operate that way.

Every shot is deliberate and lethal. They don't spray and pray. And their shots will land inside a dime.

[Grokmaster]

It would no doubt be a daunting task, but it would be nice to bask in knowing you've done something to bring back some credibility to the media.
@Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) mentioned a news outlet called "One American News" which I think bears looking into to see what they do news-wise.


NOT arming teachers is what we tried at Parkland, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, to the point of having " gun free zones".

How many lives has that idiocy cost?

[zelmo1234]

Swat team might not get the pictures of the teachers in time - then what?
If the teachers are armed, it will be all over by the time SWAT gets there, Most actual gun fights only last a few seconds.

[Grokmaster]

22832

[zelmo1234]

Might work for male teachers, but probably not because many schools are not air-conditioned and without a jacket, where are you hiding your gun other than your ankle? Kids are not stupid. When the teacher sits down, that ankle gun will be exposed. Then there are female teachers. Again, no jacket. If wearing a skirt, no ankle holster and don't tell me a bra holster is invisible unless the woman is very hefty. Forget the thigh holster. No woman wants to walk around with a pound of metal between her thighs. She'd be permanently bruised.

I an not picking on you, but people just don't understand how a pistol is concealed. But I will tell you that the only gun that ever, ever should be carried on an ankle is a back up, because in an active shooter situation you are going to be killed before you get your gun.

I carry my Gun with an inside the waist band holster and I have custom shirts that make it easy to get to my gun with I untuck them. The gun sits just behind my right hip and unless you really know what to look for, you would not know it is there.

Women have Clothing that is wonderful for concealed carry, and there is no reason that a Women that chose to carry could not have it concealed.

Take this little number for example

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=photo+of+ruger+lcp&view=detail&mid=DFD21A0B3DAD570484A8DFD21A0B3DAD570484A8&FORM=VIRE

In a pocket cover holster on a man or a women you will never know it is there.

It appear that the left is trying to come out with reason that our children in schools still have to die. Because all of the Gun control in the world is not going to save one life.

[Dr. Who]

SWAT doesn't operate that way.

Every shot is deliberate and lethal. They don't spray and pray. And their shots will land inside a dime.

Sure, as long as they identify the right person, plus some places don't have SWAT, so you only have local law enforcement who may or may not be as discriminating as you would like. I believe I was just reading a story the other day about a young man who was shot by police disarming an assailant bent on destruction. Fortunately, he wasn't killed. The bad guy was arrested unscathed.

[Grokmaster]

Sure, as long as they identify the right person, plus some places don't have SWAT, so you only have local law enforcement who may or may not be as discriminating as you would like. I believe I was just reading a story the other day about a young man who was shot by police disarming an assailant bent on destruction. Fortunately, he wasn't killed. The bad guy was arrested unscathed.

There will always be some element of human error, in everything.

It will never equal the carnage visited upon cowering, unprotected victims. EVER.

[Dr. Who]

I an not picking on you, but people just don't understand how a pistol is concealed. But I will tell you that the only gun that ever, ever should be carried on an ankle is a back up, because in an active shooter situation you are going to be killed before you get your gun.

I carry my Gun with an inside the waist band holster and I have custom shirts that make it easy to get to my gun with I untuck them. The gun sits just behind my right hip and unless you really know what to look for, you would not know it is there.

Women have Clothing that is wonderful for concealed carry, and there is no reason that a Women that chose to carry could not have it concealed.

Take this little number for example

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=photo+of+ruger+lcp&view=detail&mid=DFD21A0B3DAD570484A8DFD21A0B3DAD570484A8&FORM=VIRE

In a pocket cover holster on a man or a women you will never know it is there.

It appear that the left is trying to come out with reason that our children in schools still have to die. Because all of the Gun control in the world is not going to save one life.
That link took me to something like thirty videos and I couldn't tell which one you wanted me to see. None were obviously labeled cool concealment for women who wear form-fitting clothing.

[Peter1469]

Sure, as long as they identify the right person, plus some places don't have SWAT, so you only have local law enforcement who may or may not be as discriminating as you would like. I believe I was just reading a story the other day about a young man who was shot by police disarming an assailant bent on destruction. Fortunately, he wasn't killed. The bad guy was arrested unscathed.

Typically not a problem and reference to my earlier post.

[Ethereal]

Fear is a natural response to aggression. Tunnel vision is a symptom of that fear. You counter it by taking very deep breaths to get lots of oxygen into your system.

They just require training. And that shouldn't be a problem in a country like the USA. We have the skills, we have the money, all we need is the commitment.

[Dr. Who]

There is no need to wear a rig like that.

Women's fashions do put them at a disadvantage when it comes to concealed carry. There is no doubt of that.

There are all kinds of ways around that. And no, it would not be necessary for an armed teacher to physically have a gun on his or her person all the time. A firearm in a secure container would work just as well in the situation we are discussing.
Perhaps.

[Dr. Who]

They just require training. And that shouldn't be a problem in a country like the USA. We have the skills, we have the money, all we need is the commitment.

Ever see people lose their minds in the presence of mice, snakes or spiders? Even full grown men? Imagine those same people facing someone with a gun.

[zelmo1234]

Perhaps.
I don't agree, a Firearm in a school in a locked container, is a container that the students will try and get into.

And you are correct in that a Female or male teacher that has chosen to be one of the people to protect their school and students will be more restricted in what they wear than someone that is not taking on that responsibility.

Photos of the teachers that conceal carry certainly could be circulated to the local police agencies so they they have an idea of what they are looking for.

What people that are coming up with all of these reasons that once in a blue moon might cost a life, so we should not do it?

Well then you should not do any of the Gun control either because that on the best of days won't save a live either.

Should we tell our children that because something bad, might happen, we are going to keep things the same, so we know that if your school is attacked, the shooter will have 10 minutes alone to make sure he or she can really start to stack up the bodies.

[zelmo1234]

Ever see people lose their minds in the presence of mice, snakes or spiders? Even full grown men? Imagine those same people facing someone with a gun.

Yes but those people are going to loose there mind anyway because the person that is shooting at them is still going to be there. The only question is, do you want that person to have those 10 mins to work all by himself, and wait for the day that someone really knows what they are doing so by the time the police do get there, there are 2 hundred kids dead.

Or do we want to give that same shooter 25 seconds to work before the bullets start flying back at him or her.

Because once that first return fire shot is taken. The Shooters world changed dramatically.

[Dr. Who]

I don't agree, a Firearm in a school in a locked container, is a container that the students will try and get into.

And you are correct in that a Female or male teacher that has chosen to be one of the people to protect their school and students will be more restricted in what they wear than someone that is not taking on that responsibility.

Photos of the teachers that conceal carry certainly could be circulated to the local police agencies so they they have an idea of what they are looking for.

What people that are coming up with all of these reasons that once in a blue moon might cost a life, so we should not do it?

Well then you should not do any of the Gun control either because that on the best of days won't save a live either.

Should we tell our children that because something bad, might happen, we are going to keep things the same, so we know that if your school is attacked, the shooter will have 10 minutes alone to make sure he or she can really start to stack up the bodies.
Zel, I think that most teachers would be terrible security officers. It's about the psychology of the sort of people who become teachers. Perhaps in some rural areas where people are just accustomed to weapons from the time that they are kids, but when you get to more urban areas, not so much. I just don't think it's a practical notion in general. If you are persuaded that teachers are the ones brainwashing kids toward a liberal agenda, then how could you believe that they would willingly carry guns? I do think that most teachers lean left, otherwise they wouldn't work for the often pathetic money paid to educators. You'd have to be an idealist to get a degree and then attend teacher's college just to end up earning less than a garbage collector.

[zelmo1234]

Zel, I think that most teachers would be terrible security officers. It's about the psychology of the sort of people who become teachers. Perhaps in some rural areas where people are just accustomed to weapons from the time that they are kids, but when you get to more urban areas, not so much. I just don't think it's a practical notion in general. If you are persuaded that teachers are the ones brainwashing kids toward a liberal agenda, then how could you believe that they would willingly carry guns? I do think that most teachers lean left, otherwise they wouldn't work for the often pathetic money paid to educators. You'd have to be an idealist to get a degree and then attend teacher's college just to end up earning less than a garbage collector.
You are correct, Most will not have the aptitude to be protectors of the schools, but I don't need most I need about 10%

Now just think of what you said about poor salary? Do you think that our police officers can handle the job, because they make a hell of a lot less that the Teachers do.

Here is what I an tell you, If you want to do nothing to put about 6 to 8 armed personnel in the schools, then we need to stop wasting our time with all of this talk about Gun control and Bump Stops, and Mental health. because the Truth is. all of that stuff with not save one life, not one.

So we either find a way to add a million dollars in wages and benefits to everyone of our school buildings, ore we flat out tell the kids, when an active shooters is at your school you need to plan on 10 t 20 mins were you are going to be hunted like fish in a barrel and you are on your own.

You see the story will remain the same. And if you think about it. In every shooting there is that Hero Teachers that sacrificed themselves for the School children. THAT IS THE PERSON THAT I NEED. because that is the person that will end this.

Liberals by their very nature are cowards, it is what keeps them from being successful in the private sector. It is the reason that these shooters tend to be liberal. but not all are cowards and not all teachers are liberal, at least not yet.

[Dr. Who]

You are correct, Most will not have the aptitude to be protectors of the schools, but I don't need most I need about 10%

Now just think of what you said about poor salary? Do you think that our police officers can handle the job, because they make a hell of a lot less that the Teachers do.

Here is what I an tell you, If you want to do nothing to put about 6 to 8 armed personnel in the schools, then we need to stop wasting our time with all of this talk about Gun control and Bump Stops, and Mental health. because the Truth is. all of that stuff with not save one life, not one.

So we either find a way to add a million dollars in wages and benefits to everyone of our school buildings, ore we flat out tell the kids, when an active shooters is at your school you need to plan on 10 t 20 mins were you are going to be hunted like fish in a barrel and you are on your own.

You see the story will remain the same. And if you think about it. In every shooting there is that Hero Teachers that sacrificed themselves for the School children. THAT IS THE PERSON THAT I NEED. because that is the person that will end this.

Liberals by their very nature are cowards, it is what keeps them from being successful in the private sector. It is the reason that these shooters tend to be liberal. but not all are cowards and not all teachers are liberal, at least not yet.
I don't think that most who join the police forces are idealists. That said, many of them are not all that courageous either. From a practical point of view, keeping shooters out of the schools to begin with, is more logical. As I suggested the other day, the files in my office are more secure than kids in schools. Granted the kind of tech needed to secure schools will cost money and it will take longer for kids to get onto school property, but this ain't Kansas anymore. If you don't want draconian gun control, it will cost money to secure schools. That will mean things like solid walls around school properties and a lot of cameras surveilling the walls. It will mean a maximum of two points of entry onto school properties. Both with high tech security, electronic passes and metal detectors. It will also mean that school properties cannot be overlooked by any highrise buildings and if they are, then there can be no outdoor activities.

Kids are the most vulnerable citizens and apart from crazed student shootings, they are vulnerable to terrorist or other nutjob attacks. You could have 10 armed teachers in a school, but pull a fire alarm and the first out in the hallways are the kids, not the teachers. Long before any teacher or security officer is present, 15 kids could die unless you ensure that the bad guys can't get into the schools to begin with.

[Grokmaster]

Ever see people lose their minds in the presence of mice, snakes or spiders? Even full grown men? Imagine those same people facing someone with a gun.
Those aren't the people we will trust to protect our children.

Do leftists not know ANY COMPETENT ADULTS?

[Dr. Who]

Those aren't the people we will trust to protect our children.

Do leftists not know ANY COMPETENT ADULTS?
Well, I have no fear of mice, bugs or snakes, but I'm not sure that I would have the presence of mind and calm to just pull a gun and shoot. Maybe I could. I usually get the shakes after I've done what I have to do, but that's never involved killing someone.

[Cletus]

Perhaps.

Not perhaps.

Certainty.

[Cletus]

I don't agree, a Firearm in a school in a locked container, is a container that the students will try and get into.

Well, I am not going to say you are wrong, even though you are. You just use any of a hundred or so different models of pistol safe easily concealed in a desk or cabinet. There is no reason for the students to even know it is there. Even if they did and had access to the classroom without an adult being present, if it is properly anchored, they would not be able to breach it without tools and a lot of time.

[The Xl]

Armed security is a better idea than arming teachers.

[gamewell45]

Arming teachers in NYC would not be a good idea. Teachers in many of the schools, especially in the tougher neighborhoods are jumped by students on a regular basis; imagine an armed teacher being jumped by a couple of students who gain control of his gun. I'm sure other schools in the US might have the same issue.

[The Xl]

A lot of high school teachers can't even stand up to unruly kids. Their is no way they have the nerve or ability to handle that sort of pressure.

[donttread]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

Not so much armimg as allowing to carry. Don't make teachers with carry permits carry , rather allow them to. Or best solultion is security. You know they manage to afford in the big city schools where they are afraid OF the students instead of the smaller schools where we should be afraif FOR the stidents.

[Ransom]

If you break down the deaths where firearms were involved it is statistically much more likely that having armed teachers would result in accidental deaths. They also are not trained and regularly using a weapon like a police officer would be, to use an example. Even police officers make mistakes and shoot people who are not doing anything wrong (like grabbing a cell phone).

Then there is the issue of liability when (not if) a teacher accidentally kills or maims a student who wasn't doing anything.

School shootings are not statistically a major cause of death in the breakdown of firearm-related deaths. The hysteria to arm teachers is pretty unwarranted and it probably would not stop a school shooter who doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed and who is more likely to show up with fairly heavy-duty firearms.

Hysteria to arm is simply your degrading an opinion you don't agree with and speaking of opinions that don't agree.......how would you possibly know whether any shooter....how did you put it there...."doesn't give a crap if anyone is armed?"

Here we have Orlando, Sandy Hook, the theatre shootings, and the common denominator without question is the victims are unarmed....and the shooter KNOWS that. You think this Cruz individual comes into that school knowing fire will be coming right back at him? I don't think you can make that call and to call the disagreement hysteria exposes you know very little about this as well.

Carry on, Fake News.

[Ransom]

A lot of high school teachers can't even stand up to unruly kids. Their is no way they have the nerve or ability to handle that sort of pressure.

Bullshiit. Many teachers are prevented.....from standing up to unruly kids, Xl.

Did this happen in your schools, Xl?

I attended Catholic School grades 1-8. Nuns were the ones that were 'unruly, you'd have to un the ruler our of your arse after they inserted it there for being late from recess.

[Ransom]

Arming teachers in NYC would not be a good idea. Teachers in many of the schools, especially in the tougher neighborhoods are jumped by students on a regular basis; imagine an armed teacher being jumped by a couple of students who gain control of his gun. I'm sure other schools in the US might have the same issue.

1. The teachers armed would remain anonymous.
2. Weapons could be in the classroom and locked in a fingerprint opened safe

3. I think you've just exposed the REAL problem with your mistake here though. Students 'jumping' a teacher? Did that happen in your school, Gamewell? Cause......that didn't happen at my schools. Ever. In fact, it was never discussed.

4. What is the difference between today....and when Gamewell attended school? Did Gamewell ever have his thoughts cross where an active shooter was in the school. Did you do exercises for an active shooter? Why not?

[Ransom]

Armed security is a better idea than arming teachers.
This school had armed security. He stood outside the building. The unarmed teacher.....was the one who sacrificed himself. Think today if asked, he'd prefer a weapon rather than his own skin?

[gamewell45]

Not so much armimg as allowing to carry. Don't make teachers with carry permits carry , rather allow them to. Or best solultion is security. You know they manage to afford in the big city schools where they are afraid OF the students instead of the smaller schools where we should be afraif FOR the stidents.

I know in NYC schools it wouldn't work; the teachers, especially in the tougher neighborhoods, are more likely to get jumped and in fact do get jumped on occasion by students. Imagine an armed teacher getting jumped, being over powered and the students gaining control of his/her gun? It would be a disaster. I'm sure this issue would likewise apply to other schools around the US. That's why I believe armed security/police would be better for the job.

[Grokmaster]

NOT arming teachers has ALREADY COST KIDS' LIVES....multiple times.

[ripmeister]

If you want guns in school, don't ask teachers to be cops or soldiers. Get out the checkbook and put cops (and/or troops) in every school, along with metal detectors.
This would seem to be the better approach. Rather than spend the money on teacher training and bonuses as the POTUS suggested, just use it to hire additional professional security.

[ripmeister]

If that is the solution your local school board approves have at it.

Each local school board will have to assess risks versus costs and develop individual approaches.

Go figure. We actually agree on something. This is not a one size fits all situation. For example, I saw an interview with a Texas school district superintendent that has armed teachers because its a large rural county district with no police department, rather the county sherriff who has long response times so perhaps that's a situation where something like this makes sense. I still think it would be better though to have in house professional security.

[ripmeister]

That is always possible, but it does not have to be probable. Blue on Blue shootings are not exactly rare. Fortunately, they are not common, but they do happen.

One of the things the teachers would need to be trained to do is when the cops show up, do EXACTLY what they say. They may very well put them face down, disarmed and even cuffed, but that is okay. It is better than being shot by a cop who at that moment does not know the good guys from the bad guys. It may take a couple of minutes to sort things out, so until everybody knows who everybody is, do exactly as the police tell you and do it without argument or explanation.

There is an old saying... When the police show up, think fast and move slow. No sudden movements. No attempts to explain who you are. Just do as they say until they feel secure, then you can say Howdy and all get acquainted.
It really is just a matter of training.
I understand what you are saying and it does sound good on paper.

[The Xl]

Bullshiit. Many teachers are prevented.....from standing up to unruly kids, Xl.

Did this happen in your schools, Xl?

I attended Catholic School grades 1-8. Nuns were the ones that were 'unruly, you'd have to un the ruler our of your arse after they inserted it there for being late from recess.

You're 100 years old. I'm 29. I have a better understanding on how modern day student teacher relations are. And I didn't say all, but a lot of them wouldn't have the capacity to function under that kind of pressure. Armed professionals at schools are a better idea.

[The Xl]

This school had armed security. He stood outside the building. The unarmed teacher.....was the one who sacrificed himself. Think today if asked, he'd prefer a weapon rather than his own skin?

This guy didn't seem to be the highest quality security professional.

[ripmeister]

This guy didn't seem to be the highest quality security professional.
I think he was an older person, near retirement. I get the impression that a lot of these SRO's are cops that are about to be put out to pasture. Put a bad ass in that position.

[The Xl]

I think he was an older person, near retirement. I get the impression that a lot of these SRO's are cops that are about to be put out to pasture. Put a bad ass in that position.

Right. A guy in his prime who is qualified.

[Shady Slim]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411

https://i.imgur.com/nQmfd0W.jpg

[gamewell45]

https://i.imgur.com/nQmfd0W.jpg

You shouldn't rely on CNN for your news.

[MisterVeritis]

Armed security is a better idea than arming teachers.
I am sure you will argue your points at your local school board.

[Shady Slim]

You shouldn't rely on CNN for your news.

I certainly don't. However, I do rely on pookie for my news. This is where I get these.

[Shady Slim]

I stumbled across an opinion piece regarding the proposed arming of teachers in the classroom. I read the entire piece and found the authors rationalization to very sound. Some might shoot it down before reading it, however for those who do read it , it'll show a rational opinion from someone who served our country in Iraq and has a lot of experience firing a weapon with the intent to kill.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/arming-teachers-classroom-cost-kids-lives-article-1.3835411



"Opinion".

[zelmo1234]

Armed security is a better idea than arming teachers.
Define Security?

[zelmo1234]

Arming teachers in NYC would not be a good idea. Teachers in many of the schools, especially in the tougher neighborhoods are jumped by students on a regular basis; imagine an armed teacher being jumped by a couple of students who gain control of his gun. I'm sure other schools in the US might have the same issue.

Once they jump and armed teacher and go for the gun, the teachers life is in danger and Imagine if these wonderful little darlings were shot and killed by the teacher. Saving the good people of NYC the time and tragedy of having to deal with a system that will likely set them free.

It just might make this little shits behave.

[zelmo1234]

A lot of high school teachers can't even stand up to unruly kids. Their is no way they have the nerve or ability to handle that sort of pressure.
You are correct, and we need not arm every teacher. but there are some in every system that would do well and that is all it takes.

if these cowards know that they are likely to be opposed very quickly and it is very possible that they will be stopped by someone that will get all of the glory, they are not coming to that school I promise.

[gamewell45]

I certainly don't. However, I do rely on pookie for my news. This is where I get these.

That's cool. :)

[gamewell45]

"Opinion".

Excellent observation sir.

[gamewell45]

Once they jump and armed teacher and go for the gun, the teachers life is in danger and Imagine if these wonderful little darlings were shot and killed by the teacher. Saving the good people of NYC the time and tragedy of having to deal with a system that will likely set them free.

It just might make this little $#@!s behave.

Trust me on this; all they have to do is have three or more students come from behind, one placing the teacher in a choke hold, the other two to grab his/her arms and the fourth to get control of his gun. The good teacher isn't going to be able to do much after 10 or 15 seconds in a choke hold regardless. NYC schools are a different animal; teachers are jumped and assaulted on a regular basis in some schools.

We could debate this all day, but NYC Schools would never allow their teachers to be armed. That's why they have a separate police force for the schools.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/civilians/school-safety-agents.page

[zelmo1234]

Trust me on this; all they have to do is have three or more students come from behind, one placing the teacher in a choke hold, the other two to grab his/her arms and the fourth to get control of his gun. The good teacher isn't going to be able to do much after 10 or 15 seconds in a choke hold regardless. NYC schools are a different animal; teachers are jumped and assaulted on a regular basis in some schools.

We could debate this all day, but NYC Schools would never allow their teachers to be armed. That's why they have a separate police force for the schools.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/civilians/school-safety-agents.page
Trust me, there will be other teachers that will be armed as well and as soon as one of these thugs touches the gun, they can put them down.

When the word gets out that monsters will be shot and the teacher that did the shooting will be a hero, they will calm down.

[Captdon]

In theory, perhaps. In an adrenalin filled situation with an active shooter in the fray I question whether reality would equate with the theory regardless of ones level of training.

There wouldn't be an active shooter. The shooter would be down and probably dead. A couple of trained teachers aren't going to shoot someone in the ten minutes it takes the police to arrive?

[Captdon]

Might work for male teachers, but probably not because many schools are not air-conditioned and without a jacket, where are you hiding your gun other than your ankle? Kids are not stupid. When the teacher sits down, that ankle gun will be exposed. Then there are female teachers. Again, no jacket. If wearing a skirt, no ankle holster and don't tell me a bra holster is invisible unless the woman is very hefty. Forget the thigh holster. No woman wants to walk around with a pound of metal between her thighs. She'd be permanently bruised.

Why would it have to be hidden? A shooter is going to be a target with the first shot. Ten teachers trained can't be taken out with one shot.

[Tahuyaman]

Excellent observation sir.


It is. Especially considering that you pointed that out in your first sentence.

[Captdon]

Sure, as long as they identify the right person, plus some places don't have SWAT, so you only have local law enforcement who may or may not be as discriminating as you would like. I believe I was just reading a story the other day about a young man who was shot by police disarming an assailant bent on destruction. Fortunately, he wasn't killed. The bad guy was arrested unscathed.

Well, hell, let's just do what we are doing and let the kids die. Every idea is opposed by you for some reason or another. When a shooter opens fire the shooter is in control as long as he is able. How many kids have to die before you're willing to trust the teachers to use their heads in a shooting situation?

One bad event doesn't make all the events bad. Do you go to movies now? Do you go to fast food places now? Do you go to church now? Do you go to clubs now?

[Captdon]

A lot of high school teachers can't even stand up to unruly kids. Their is no way they have the nerve or ability to handle that sort of pressure.

A lot isn't all. We only need a few to be willing, just two or three would do it.

[MMC]

Trust me, there will be other teachers that will be armed as well and as soon as one of these thugs touches the gun, they can put them down.

When the word gets out that monsters will be shot and the teacher that did the shooting will be a hero, they will calm down.

7 Simple Steps to Eliminate School Shootings Overnight .....


In 2017, with 300,000,000-plus guns in the hands of Americans, there were 15,549 gun deaths. This ranks less than half the number of automobile deaths even though there are fewer cars in existence than guns. In 2017, there were 253,000,000 cars in existence and 41,000 auto deaths.


Nonetheless, the rhetoric is so loud and the anger so tightly wound that a way forward needs to begin. Genuinely good people on both sides of this issue disagree. Pro-gun people believe that owning a gun is one step of many in helping to keep their families safe and their government from becoming too tyrannical. Anti-gun people believe that the mere existence of a gun is a danger to all. But note that both sets of people desire safety in general.


With very little expertise, but with a robust research ability, my staff and I began looking at this issue this week from the perspective of what could be done that would be tangible, but also acceptable to both sides of the discussion. Here’s seven simple steps that can and should be implemented overnight across the country and in similar fashion school shootings would be eliminated. This list is not exhaustive but is a starting point where good-willed people can come together to make a significant difference now.


1. Metal Detectors In Every School:
2. Enforce Everything:
3. Perform Active Shooter Drills:
4. Reinforce Doors, Windows, Buses, Locks:
5. Recruit Retired Military & Law Enforcement:
6. Arm All Appropriate Personnel:
7. Publicize Consequence:



None of these steps infringe upon law-abiding people’s Second Amendment rights.


All of these steps attempt to stop and engage mentally ill or deliberately belligerent attackers.


This list would make an immediate impact on every school that adopts them.


No common sense American can deny their effectiveness.


Our kids are worth it! .....snip~


https://townhall.com/columnists/kevi...night-n2450380 (https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2018/02/18/how-to-eliminate-school-shootings-overnight-n2450380)


All it takes is allowing former military to be accredited. If they can teach people in the military the how to's they can handle kids in schools.

[gamewell45]

Trust me, there will be other teachers that will be armed as well and as soon as one of these thugs touches the gun, they can put them down.

When the word gets out that monsters will be shot and the teacher that did the shooting will be a hero, they will calm down.

That's assuming there is a teacher nearby. I wish I could agree with you but I think it would be a receipt for failure. Just my opinion.

[gamewell45]

It is. Especially considering that you pointed that out in your first sentence.

Never hurts to make sure everyone knows your position. :)

[zelmo1234]

A lot isn't all. We only need a few to be willing, just two or three would do it.
If there is one teacher in every school it changes the sign from Gun free zone to Armed Staff on Duty.

[Tahuyaman]

Never hurts to make sure everyone knows your position. :)

Like you, I find it impressive when someone demonstrates such a solid grasp of the obvious.

[Ethereal]

Ever see people lose their minds in the presence of mice, snakes or spiders? Even full grown men? Imagine those same people facing someone with a gun.

Clearly those people would not be selected for security functions. Did that really need to be explained?

[zelmo1234]

That's assuming there is a teacher nearby. I wish I could agree with you but I think it would be a receipt for failure. Just my opinion.

So we are at this position then

We can't afford the amount of private security that it would take for each school we just can't you might be able to have one, which would be the first target of the shooter back to square one.

it takes about 10 mins to get police on the scene and in that time the Children are defenseless.

I can't think of a Gun control measure that would stop these shootings can you?

[zelmo1234]

7 Simple Steps to Eliminate School Shootings Overnight .....


In 2017, with 300,000,000-plus guns in the hands of Americans, there were 15,549 gun deaths. This ranks less than half the number of automobile deaths even though there are fewer cars in existence than guns. In 2017, there were 253,000,000 cars in existence and 41,000 auto deaths.


Nonetheless, the rhetoric is so loud and the anger so tightly wound that a way forward needs to begin. Genuinely good people on both sides of this issue disagree. Pro-gun people believe that owning a gun is one step of many in helping to keep their families safe and their government from becoming too tyrannical. Anti-gun people believe that the mere existence of a gun is a danger to all. But note that both sets of people desire safety in general.


With very little expertise, but with a robust research ability, my staff and I began looking at this issue this week from the perspective of what could be done that would be tangible, but also acceptable to both sides of the discussion. Here’s seven simple steps that can and should be implemented overnight across the country and in similar fashion school shootings would be eliminated. This list is not exhaustive but is a starting point where good-willed people can come together to make a significant difference now.


1. Metal Detectors In Every School:
2. Enforce Everything:
3. Perform Active Shooter Drills:
4. Reinforce Doors, Windows, Buses, Locks:
5. Recruit Retired Military & Law Enforcement:
6. Arm All Appropriate Personnel:
7. Publicize Consequence:



None of these steps infringe upon law-abiding people’s Second Amendment rights.


All of these steps attempt to stop and engage mentally ill or deliberately belligerent attackers.


This list would make an immediate impact on every school that adopts them.


No common sense American can deny their effectiveness.


Our kids are worth it! .....snip~


https://townhall.com/columnists/kevi...night-n2450380 (https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2018/02/18/how-to-eliminate-school-shootings-overnight-n2450380)


All it takes is allowing former military to be accredited. If they can teach people in the military the how to's they can handle kids in schools.

That is a lot of money that we do not have.

[Ethereal]

Armed security is a better idea than arming teachers.
I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. I also think people are making the mistake of assuming a one-size-fits-all solution when each security situation is unique. Perhaps there are some contexts where armed security would be the best option. Other contexts might favor arming select teachers, ideally ones with a background in law enforcement or the military. The point is that each community needs to find a security solution that is tailored to their individual circumstances. The most important step they can take is to get together with other members of their community, especially other parents, and commit to investing in a better security system for their schools. Going forward, schools should be treated similar to a courthouse in terms of their security posture.

[Ethereal]

Arming teachers in NYC would not be a good idea. Teachers in many of the schools, especially in the tougher neighborhoods are jumped by students on a regular basis; imagine an armed teacher being jumped by a couple of students who gain control of his gun. I'm sure other schools in the US might have the same issue.
The fact that teachers are getting jumped in some of those schools proves just how abysmal the security has become in some of America's schools. In a properly managed school, that should not be happening, period.

[Ethereal]

A lot of high school teachers can't even stand up to unruly kids. Their is no way they have the nerve or ability to handle that sort of pressure.
I don't think we should be arming "a lot" of high school teachers. One or two teachers, selected based on their individual aptitude, would probably be enough for most schools. They could undergo a summer training program and have remediation each summer going forward.

[Ethereal]

This would seem to be the better approach. Rather than spend the money on teacher training and bonuses as the POTUS suggested, just use it to hire additional professional security.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Bigger schools would probably be better served with a professional security staff. Smaller schools would probably be better served by arming select teachers with the aptitude for security. Each community has to come up with their own solution. Americans have become so conditioned to look for centralized solutions to every problem, that their ability to solve problems at a communal level has significantly diminished.

[gamewell45]

Like you, I find it impressive when someone demonstrates such a solid grasp of the obvious.

Well thank you. We do not want to disappoint you. Glad you are impressed. :)

[ripmeister]

There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Bigger schools would probably be better served with a professional security staff. Smaller schools would probably be better served by arming select teachers with the aptitude for security. Each community has to come up with their own solution. Americans have become so conditioned to look for centralized solutions to every problem, that their ability to solve problems at a communal level has significantly diminished.
I would agree. Solutions are going to vary depending on the situation. They also need to be multifactorial.

[gamewell45]

So we are at this position then

We can't afford the amount of private security that it would take for each school we just can't you might be able to have one, which would be the first target of the shooter back to square one.

it takes about 10 mins to get police on the scene and in that time the Children are defenseless.

I can't think of a Gun control measure that would stop these shootings can you?

I think most school districts can afford security; it's a cost of doing business. That being said, we'll never stop all shootings, however ideally we can reduce them and the threat of them.

[gamewell45]

The fact that teachers are getting jumped in some of those schools proves just how abysmal the security has become in some of America's schools. In a properly managed school, that should not be happening, period.

I agree that it should not be happening, however the truth of the matter is that it does happen; unless you had security of one-on-one, it'll most likely continue.

[Dr. Who]

Why would it have to be hidden? A shooter is going to be a target with the first shot. Ten teachers trained can't be taken out with one shot.
I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.

[Grokmaster]

I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.

Do you not know any competent adults? We've already tried NOT arming teachers, etal, in "gun free zones"; how has that worked out for us?

[zelmo1234]

I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.

Do you think that the Students are scared to go to the mall or shopping?

And there would be no reason to publish the teachers that are carrying concealed That should be kept private.

[Chris]

Do you think that the Students are scared to go to the mall or shopping?

And there would be no reason to publish the teachers that are carrying concealed That should be kept private.


Nah, guns are scarey things man.

(How's your experiment going? Any movement?)

[Dr. Who]

Well, hell, let's just do what we are doing and let the kids die. Every idea is opposed by you for some reason or another. When a shooter opens fire the shooter is in control as long as he is able. How many kids have to die before you're willing to trust the teachers to use their heads in a shooting situation?

One bad event doesn't make all the events bad. Do you go to movies now? Do you go to fast food places now? Do you go to church now? Do you go to clubs now?
I'm a bit of a homebody when I'm not at work.

[Grokmaster]

Every Single Government Authority Failed In Parkland. And They Expect Americans To Forfeit Our Self-Defense Rights To Them?



https://www.dailywire.com/news/27491/every-single-government-authority-failed-parkland-ben-shapiro

[Cletus]

I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.

It hasn't in places where it has been done.

[Dr. Who]

Do you not know any competent adults? We've already tried NOT arming teachers, etal, in "gun free zones"; how has that worked out for us?
Have we tried simply properly securing school access? Has there been one shooting at a school where any Tom, Dick or Harry can't simply just walk in?

[AZ Jim]

Think about what we've come to! Arming our teachers in the hope they can save our children from death by gun fire. THINK of that!!

[Chris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK4_ogsh0Po

[MisterVeritis]

Think about what we've come to! Arming our teachers in the hope they can save our children from death by gun fire. THINK of that!!
We need to lock up crazy people once again.

Each school board will have to decide the security component mix that makes sense for their schools.

[zelmo1234]

Have we tried simply properly securing school access? Has there been one shooting at a school where any Tom, Dick or Harry can't simply just walk in?

That would be interesting. But how to you propose keeping them out. that gun will open a lot of locked doors.

[zelmo1234]

Think about what we've come to! Arming our teachers in the hope they can save our children from death by gun fire. THINK of that!!

Do you have a suggestion that would work without that?

[Ransom]

You're 100 years old. I'm 29. I have a better understanding on how modern day student teacher relations are. And I didn't say all, but a lot of them wouldn't have the capacity to function under that kind of pressure. Armed professionals at schools are a better idea.
I reckon to someone in the 8th grade, everyone seems 100 years old. And if you did have a better understanding, you'd know the teacher has a much closer relationship with the students than would an 'armed professional.' A 'stake' in the event if you will. You make, train, and develop your teachers with skills that includes armed professional and then you've an armed professional at your school.....who really cares for your students and the school itself.

29 is too old and thus you should know better too.

[Ransom]

I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.
What say the weapons are in the school in a safe with fingerprint drawer? Better?

[Chris]

I believe that the idea is that armed teachers would scare the students or make the teachers targets for gun theft.

What you think as opposed to what students do:


And while no teacher in Callisburg, Texas, has been called on yet to fire a weapon in defense of a classroom, students in the Callisburg Independent School District say they feel safer knowing their teachers can protect them if the unthinkable happens.

@ https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/health/texas-guns-school-district-trnd/index.html

[Peter1469]

Have we tried simply properly securing school access? Has there been one shooting at a school where any Tom, Dick or Harry can't simply just walk in?

You mean single point access with metal detectors. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would guess no.

[Dr. Who]

That would be interesting. But how to you propose keeping them out. that gun will open a lot of locked doors.
Off the top of my head?
Entrance through an anteroom i.e. two sets of doors (the first set open) with a metal detector and camera followed by an electronically controlled turnstile with a pass reader located between the doors. Two armed security guards. One outside in a bulletproof booth. One inside.

Metal detector triggers a silent alarm and locks out the turnstile and both sets of doors until released by someone inside the school. Security officers both alerted. There are now cameras that can "see" concealed weapons. If weapons are seen, law enforcement is called.

Both doors with electronic locks plus deadbolts top and bottom and security grade i.e. bullet proof doors. Break the circuit and it stays locked and deadbolts engage, triggering both the silent alarm (to the police) as well as the interior alarms. First set of doors also close and lock, trapping the would-be shooter.

I'm sure that there are security contractors that can come up with a solution. Obviously, something would also have to be done with ground level windows.

[Dr. Who]

You mean single point access with metal detectors. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would guess no.

Exactly.

[MisterVeritis]

It is time to get rid of schools.

[Dr. Who]

What say the weapons are in the school in a safe with fingerprint drawer? Better?

I have to say I can see problems with armed teachers. I don't think that level of vigilance is compatible with teaching in the often volatile environment of schools. Furthermore, do you really think that you want people without the appropriate training involved in a potential firefight in a school? There might be more than one shooter.

[Ransom]

I have to say I can see problems with armed teachers.

I believe we've seen a problem with teachers being unarmed, Dr. Who. With no other option but to try to use their own body for a shield or pack their students into a closet like sardines.


I don't think that level of vigilance is compatible with teaching in the often volatile environment of schools. Furthermore, do you really think that you want people without the appropriate training involved in a potential firefight in a school? There might be more than one shooter.
Obviously, the lack of any level of vigilance isn't compatible. And I believe, every proposal involving carry or weapons in school involves appropriate training, Dr. Who. I mean, I'm in threads and conversations where this is being discussed, there is every desire to train the teachers. And if you'd look at responses, many teachers would volunteer to do just that.

You more than one shooter would just cause me to double down. Now...you've got a Columbine or even worse where the two or three would split up to wreak maximum havoc or prevent students from fleeing or combat police when they show up. I'd rather...as a parent...have a trained teacher inside the school. WHo in fact may be able to locate a shooter or communicate with police in case of hostage situations, etc.

[Dr. Who]

What you think as opposed to what students do:



@ https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/health/texas-guns-school-district-trnd/index.html

Callisburg, a Texas city with a population of 357 people, of whom 94.9% or 338 are white, with a population density of 58.4 per square mile and a total of 40 people living below the poverty line. They are just so typical of the average American city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisburg,_Texas
http://www.city-data.com/city/Callisburg-Texas.html

Now there are few more people in the entire school district because it covers 27 square miles and there are two whole schools with over 1,100 students! The Police Chief, Paul Cairney is also the High School Principal. Of course, it's within Cooke County, Texas which is part of the 26th District - (R).

I'm just so surprised that they are comfortable with weapons in the school! It can't be because most of the kids have been shooting at varmints since they were old enough to hold a rifle.

[Grokmaster]

22841

[Cletus]

I have to say I can see problems with armed teachers. I don't think that level of vigilance is compatible with teaching in the often volatile environment of schools. Furthermore, do you really think that you want people without the appropriate training involved in a potential firefight in a school? There might be more than one shooter.

I really do not understand that mindset.

An armed teacher may or may not be able to prevent a massacre, but an unarmed teacher can do nothing but watch students die until he gets killed himself.

Is that really what you prefer?

[zelmo1234]

I really do not understand that mindset.

An armed teacher may or may not be able to prevent a massacre, but an unarmed teacher can do nothing but watch students die until he gets killed himself.

Is that really what you prefer?
Actually I do think that the Democrats prefer this. If the school shootings stop they loose an item that they can try and scare the American people with

[Dr. Who]

I really do not understand that mindset.

An armed teacher may or may not be able to prevent a massacre, but an unarmed teacher can do nothing but watch students die until he gets killed himself.

Is that really what you prefer?

No, but a stressed-out teacher carrying a weapon and confronted by an aggressive but unarmed teen might just pull that weapon and even pull the trigger. Would you like to see the crap show that happens after that? The media would go insane.

[Common Sense]

If we're going to arm teachers, why not arm postal workers, doctors and nurses, bus drivers, subway janitors, DMV clerks and priests?

If everyone carried a gun, it would be peace on earth. What could possibliy go wrong?

[Cletus]

No

It is what you are advocating.

[Common]

No, but a stressed-out teacher carrying a weapon and confronted by an aggressive but unarmed teen might just pull that weapon and even pull the trigger. Would you like to see the crap show that happens after that? The media would go insane.
ok Dr then I must ask you, what exactly do you believe will stop school shootings

[MMC]

If we're going to arm teachers, why not arm postal workers, doctors and nurses, bus drivers, subway janitors, DMV clerks and priests?

If everyone carried a gun, it would be peace on earth. What could possibliy go wrong?

Anytime leftists are involved with anything.....there is always a good chance that something will go wrong. Remember now, leftists are born as fuck ups.

[zelmo1234]

No, but a stressed-out teacher carrying a weapon and confronted by an aggressive but unarmed teen might just pull that weapon and even pull the trigger. Would you like to see the crap show that happens after that? The media would go insane.
That Same Stressed out teacher might pull a baseball bat and beat the shit our of the teacher.

But I think that you are saying that our Teachers are homicidal time bombs waiting to go off and kill out children.

If they are such Gentle Snowflakes that they can't handle the job, then I suggest that we bring in conservative Teachers that will not be so stressed out.

Come on! It is very clear that the Democrats are going to fight really protecting our children, and because of this we need to make sure that there is NO new gun control because none of that shit was going to work anyway.

What has become very, very, one would say Crystal Clear to me, is that the left absolutely does not want these shootings to stop because it is a political weapon that they can continue to use.

Understand that they know by changing the signs out in front of the schools to Armed Staff on Duty, it becomes highly unlikely that a shooting will even occur at that location.

Liberals and Democrats are more than willing to use the nations children as political pawns.

This is one more reason that we must have school of choice so that parents can have a choice and get their children out of the Gun Free Killing fields as well as removing them from the common core indoctrination centers that seek to turn out children with a false knowledge of America.

[Common Sense]

Anytime leftists are involved with anything.....there is always a good chance that something will go wrong. Remember now, leftists are born as fuck ups.

Show us on the doll where the leftist touched you.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

[zelmo1234]

If we're going to arm teachers, why not arm postal workers, doctors and nurses, bus drivers, subway janitors, DMV clerks and priests?


If everyone carried a gun, it would be peace on earth. What could possibliy go wrong?
Well lets see Postal Workers can be Armed, Doctors and Nurses can be armed and I know some, including my wife, that practice conceal carry, Bus Driver it would depend on Who they are driving for, but I know many Taxi Drivers that are Armed as well as over the road truckers. Janitors would be excellent people to arm and depending on where they work, they can be. Some states have anti conceal carry but places like TX and AL DMV clerks can be armed, And Clergy and Church's can be armed and after the attacks many of them are.
But teachers no we lock them in little rooms where the only way out is through a long straight shooting range that creates the perfect killing field, and wish them the very best.
And Of course the old adage " an armed society is a polite society" rings true.

[zelmo1234]

ok Dr then I must ask you, what exactly do you believe will stop school shootings
Or better Question yet? Do you really want to stop school shootings.

[Common Sense]

Heinlein's saying is cute and simplistic.

It's never been true, but it appeals to some who are detached from reality.

[MMC]

Show us on the doll where the leftist touched you.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

Well she tried to kiss me and got an electrical shock. So you are correct.....it wasn't my fault. As I warned her don't ever try to do that wearing clogs. But as a typical leftist. She didn't listen.

[Common Sense]

Well she tried to kiss me and got an electrical shock. So you are correct.....it wasn't my fault. As I warned her don't ever try to do that wearing clogs. But as a typical leftist. She didn't listen.

Well that explains it.

[stjames1_53]

Show us on the doll where the leftist touched you.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

a purely stupid response

[Common Sense]

a purely stupid response

It seemed appropriate.

[MMC]

Well that explains it.

Certainly explains why leftists are fuck ups when it comes to listening, huh?

[Common Sense]

Certainly explains why leftists are fuck ups when it comes to listening, huh?

Does it?

[zelmo1234]

Heinlein's saying is cute and simplistic.

It's never been true, but it appeals to some who are detached from reality.

Really, how many people do you know are picking a fight with someone they know is carrying a gun?

[MMC]

a purely stupid response

Remember.....play it as, they get what they give. They can be trained like monkeys. :wink:

[stjames1_53]

the Leftist Hand book is a library full of "What If's"..............

[MMC]

Does it?

http://i.imgur.com/Y4TrI.gif

[stjames1_53]

Does it?

this thread is above your pay grade, and you've just proven it three times

[Common Sense]

Really, how many people do you know are picking a fight with someone they know is carrying a gun?

The other person who is carrying a gun.

Just curious, where has this armed polite society ever existed?

[Ransom]

The other person who is carrying a gun.

Just curious, where has this armed polite society ever existed?

Right next to the really polite unarmed societies.

[zelmo1234]

The other person who is carrying a gun.

Just curious, where has this armed polite society ever existed?

my house, I am not picking on the Red Head, I have seen her shoot.