Let's "Define" what exactly is an "Assault" weapon?

[Red Green]

What is an "assault"weapon?

According to the gun control lobby it's those scary looking military replicates of assault rifles which by the way are SEMIAUTOMATIC and civilian market models are often of much lower caliber.

But they sure look scary and militaristic don't they?

Next let's regulate magazine size ok fine ten rounds max okay so it only takes trained hands a second to drop a clip pop in fresh one and pull the slide back and start shooting again furthermore here are skilled metal workers n machinist who could simply replicate the larger magazines and create knock offs.

What about a baseball bat if I smash somebody's skull in with a Louisville Slugger is that an "assault " weapon too?

[Cigar]

I'm lees concerned with what people call as Bullet Delivery Devise that Kills more people in one minute than 911 responders can support.

[Cigar]

There were reported at least 6 weapons he could have choose from that were immediately at hand. The fact that he didn't take the hunting rifle or shotgun into the school should be a major argument in favor of assault-style or what ever to want to call it .. gun regulation control.

He made a conscious choice of semi-automatic rifle and hand guns that were sure to swiftly inflict the desired damage.

Joe Klein (TIME) made this paraphrased ... but pertinent observation earlier today on Morning Joe.

This is germane to the discussion to some type of regulation ... In my opinion.

[Mister D]

I'm lees concerned with what people call as Bullet Delivery Devise that Kills more people in one minute than 911 responders can support.

A revolver can do that, Cigar. hell, so can a baseball bat.

[Cigar]

A revolver can do that, Cigar. hell, so can a baseball bat.


Once again ... we're not talking about someone who used a bat ... are we?

[Mister D]

Once again ... we're not talking about someone who used a bat ... are we?

No, we are talking about a "Bullet Delivery Devise that Kills more people in one minute than 911 responders can support". A revolver can do that, Cigar.

[Cigar]

No, we are talking about a "Bullet Delivery Devise that Kills more people in one minute than 911 responders can support". A revolver can do that, Cigar.

After witch you reload ... when?

[Mister D]

After witch you reload ... when?

No, after "witch" I grab some body parts for the cauldron. :wink:

[Red Green]

I'm lees concerned with what people call as Bullet Delivery Devise that Kills more people in one minute than 911 responders can support.

First of all 911 response is contingent on location of the nearest police squad in urban areas police response is usually minutes away but in the outskirts or rural areas first responders may well be 15-30 miles away so what's your point?

So should all guns be single shot to force people to reload is that it?

[Deadwood]

No, after "witch" I grab some body parts for the cauldron. :wink:



That rolled tobacco product never could spell -- it's WHICH you moron, a witch is what you're married to...


I don't care about assault rifles or delivery systems, I care about keeping the fucking things out of the hands of the wrong people.

I am so pissed off at the NRA, of which I was once a member for their light their hair on fire at the IDEA that maybe we have to expand who gets weapons. FFS we don't let violent criminals have them, we don' let children have them......what's wrong with further restricting access so ape-shit crazy nut bars with atavistic anger issues can't kill children and innocent people....

[hanger4]

After witch you reload ... when?

When it's empty, then pop another cylinder in as fast as you could another clip.

[Cigar]

When it's empty, then pop another cylinder in as fast as you could another clip.

Ok Cowboy :)

Do you re-holster and draw again?

[Chloe]

I'd love for there to be no more guns of any kind in anybody's hand but unfortunately that's not realistic. I'd be ok with banning all guns except for things like hunting rifles. Police officers would have handguns and stronger weapons just in case but I'd be ok seeing all gun manufacturing to be limited to single bullet type hunting rifles. Stop making machine guns, stop making ridiculous looking shotguns, stop making all automatic loading guns, and handguns. I realize that the manufacturing of these will probably never be stopped but that would be my ultimate hope.

[Mister D]

Ok Cowboy :)

Do you re-holster and draw again?

Why would you reholster?

[Cigar]

I'd love for there to be no more guns of any kind in anybody's hand but unfortunately that's not realistic. I'd be ok with banning all guns except for things like hunting rifles. Police officers would have handguns and stronger weapons just in case but I'd be ok seeing all gun manufacturing to be limited to single bullet type hunting rifles. Stop making machine guns, stop making ridiculous looking shotguns, stop making all automatic loading guns, and handguns. I realize that the manufacturing of these will probably never be stopped but that would be my ultimate hope.


Hang on now ... I'm keeping my Pistols, Shot Gun and Elephant Gun :)

[Cigar]

Why would you reholster?


Isn't that what Clint would do?

[hanger4]

Ok Cowboy :)

Do you re-holster and draw again?

Your ignorance concerning weapons is astounding for someone who claims to own some.

Apparently you are not a responsible gun owner.

[Mister D]

Isn't that what Clint would do?


No, he would reload quickly and keep shooting. It's not hard.

[Red Green]

I'd love for there to be no more guns of any kind in anybody's hand but unfortunately that's not realistic. I'd be ok with banning all guns except for things like hunting rifles. Police officers would have handguns and stronger weapons just in case but I'd be ok seeing all gun manufacturing to be limited to single bullet type hunting rifles. Stop making machine guns, stop making ridiculous looking shotguns, stop making all automatic loading guns, and handguns. I realize that the manufacturing of these will probably never be stopped but that would be my ultimate hope.

First off machine guns are currently ILLEGAL the assault rifles sold for civilian market are SEMI-AUTOMATICS not machine guns and generally they are much lower caliber unless you are willing to spend thousands.

As for SCARY looking shotguns seriously don't all guns Look kinda scary

I know all future guns should be pink with polka dots and smilie faces right.

[Chloe]

First off machine guns are currently ILLEGAL the assault rifles sold for civilian market are SEMI-AUTOMATICS not machine guns and generally they are much lower caliber unless you are willing to spend thousands.

As for SCARY looking shotguns seriously don't all guns Look kinda scary

I know all future guns should be pink with polka dots and smilie faces right.

That last sentence isn't condescending at all. Yes pink with polka dots and smilie faces would make them much less scary looking but still deadly and unnecessary.

[Cigar]

No, he would reload quickly and keep shooting. It's not hard.



Would that be before of after talking to an empty chair ? :)

[Red Green]

That last sentence isn't condescending at all. Yes pink with polka dots and smilie faces would make them much less scary looking but still deadly and unnecessary.


Ok I was being a smart @$$ with that but would you please "define" what a ridiculous or previously scary looking shotgun looks like?

I mean in order to force gun manufacturers from producing them a law would require clear definition.

[Chloe]

Ok I was being a smart @$$ with that but would you please "define" what a ridiculous or previously scary looking shotgun looks like?

I mean in order to force gun manufacturers from producing them a law would require clear definition.

Well when i said "scary" I was just typing what was in my head I didn't really mean a true description like that.

[Red Green]

Well when i said "scary" I was just typing what was in my head I didn't really mean a true description like that.

I am curious as to how you edited scary out of my own post?

[Chloe]

I am curious as to how you edited scary out of my own post?

Sorry what do you mean?

[Chloe]

Oh that's true I didn't say scary did I? I said ridiculous. I assumed I said scary since you described shotguns as scary in your response to me. Sorry for the confusion

[Peter1469]

There were reported at least 6 weapons he could have choose from that were immediately at hand. The fact that he didn't take the hunting rifle or shotgun into the school should be a major argument in favor of assault-style or what ever to want to call it .. gun regulation control.

He made a conscious choice of semi-automatic rifle and hand guns that were sure to swiftly inflict the desired damage.

Joe Klein (TIME) made this paraphrased ... but pertinent observation earlier today on Morning Joe.

This is germane to the discussion to some type of regulation ... In my opinion.

Now you are back to semi-auto. Which is it? A semi auto or an assault weapon? They are two different things.

[Peter1469]

I'd love for there to be no more guns of any kind in anybody's hand but unfortunately that's not realistic. I'd be ok with banning all guns except for things like hunting rifles. Police officers would have handguns and stronger weapons just in case but I'd be ok seeing all gun manufacturing to be limited to single bullet type hunting rifles. Stop making machine guns, stop making ridiculous looking shotguns, stop making all automatic loading guns, and handguns. I realize that the manufacturing of these will probably never be stopped but that would be my ultimate hope.

There are over 300 million legal guns in America. You would need a heavy handed left wing fascist State to mop all of those up.

[Chloe]

There are over 300 million legal guns in America. You would need a heavy handed left wing fascist State to mop all of those up.

My wish would be no guns but I know realistically that won't happen. I do think that it would easy enough to say that certain guns should no longer be produced though.

[Agravan]

My wish would be no guns but I know realistically that won't happen. I do think that it would easy enough to say that certain guns should no longer be produced though.
And how would you stop them from being manufactured overseas and brought up thru Mexico or in the millions of containers brought in every year?

[Adelaide]

First off machine guns are currently ILLEGAL the assault rifles sold for civilian market are SEMI-AUTOMATICS not machine guns and generally they are much lower caliber unless you are willing to spend thousands.

As for SCARY looking shotguns seriously don't all guns Look kinda scary

I know all future guns should be pink with polka dots and smilie faces right.

The sentiment is the same regardless of a working knowledge of the specific types/functions of firearms. The level of destruction that can be brought with some firearms is disturbing; they're designed to kill each other, not to hunt or for sport. I personally see absolutely no reason or need for someone to own one.

[Agravan]

The sentiment is the same regardless of a working knowledge of the specific types/functions of firearms. The level of destruction that can be brought with some firearms is disturbing; they're designed to kill each other, not to hunt or for sport. I personally see absolutely no reason or need for someone to own one.
So don't buy one.

[Adelaide]

And how would you stop them from being manufactured overseas and brought up thru Mexico or in the millions of containers brought in every year?

You couldn't, realistically, you're right. In Canada, vast majority of our illegal weapons come from the US. It's still very hard to find an illegal weapon, though. It's easier to buy a weapon legally than illegally and we have very strict laws, with even tasers and pepper spray being illegal.

Here is a list of restrictioned and prohibited: http://www.firearms-safety-course.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17&Itemid=23

I like the laws for us - but we live in a vastly different culture when it comes to guns.

[Adelaide]

So don't buy one.

Couldn't if I wanted to. :)

[Chloe]

And how would you stop them from being manufactured overseas and brought up thru Mexico or in the millions of containers brought in every year?

I don't know how but I'm sure there are ways to try. Just because there may be difficulties doesn't mean you don't make an effort.

[Deadwood]

Ok I was being a smart @$$ with that but would you please "define" what a ridiculous or previously scary looking shotgun looks like?

I mean in order to force gun manufacturers from producing them a law would require clear definition.



Just a suggestion, but you may want to check the legislation we now have.....although the term "assault rifle" may not be used, the law already defines it.

That is not the issue.

The issue is who gets to have one.

You don't need an automatic weapon to kill a lot of people fast....hasn't anyone read the news?

[Agravan]

I don't know how but I'm sure there are ways to try. Just because there may be difficulties doesn't mean you don't make an effort.
As I've said in another thread: the Afghanis learned that the AK-47 was easily duplicated out of sheet metal and machined parts. Afghan metalworkers quickly copied and distributed them during the Soviet occupation.
The same could happen, and likely would happen here.

[Chloe]

As I've said in another thread: the Afghanis learned that the AK-47 was easily duplicated out of sheet metal and machined parts. Afghan metalworkers quickly copied and distributed them during the Soviet occupation.
The same could happen, and likely would happen here.

Right but again that doesn't mean you don't try just because it may not be perfect

[hanger4]

Right but again that doesn't mean you don't try just because it may not be perfect

Chloe,

think

Prohibition.

[Chloe]

Chloe,

think

Prohibition.

you can limit something without it being the equivalent to something like prohibition. Everybody is trying to think of ways it would fail instead of ways that it could be successful. Why make murder illegal when someone will still commit murder? If you can't buy a large gun that can shoot dozens of bullets in a few seconds is it really going to be the end of the world for someone?

[Mister D]

I think I might do better with a semi-automatic shotgun were I to go berserk.

[Chloe]

I think I might do better with a semi-automatic shotgun were I to go berserk.

Thats true

[Agravan]

you can limit something without it being the equivalent to something like prohibition. Everybody is trying to think of ways it would fail instead of ways that it could be successful. Why make murder illegal when someone will still commit murder? If you can't buy a large gun that can shoot dozens of bullets in a few seconds is it really going to be the end of the world for someone?
Criminals would still have them. They don't go to gun stores to buy them. Such a ban only affects people who are incined to be law-abiding. So, how would that solve anything?

[Chloe]

Criminals would still have them. They don't go to gun stores to buy them. Such a ban only affects people who are incined to be law-abiding. So, how would that solve anything?

Not to sound like a jerk but how many criminals are walking around your community right now with assault weapons that you are currently defending youself from?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Not to sound like a jerk but how many criminals are walking around your community right now with assault weapons that you are currently defending youself from?

My community has guns. That's why they're not here.

So does most of Texas.

Most of these shootings happen in places with gun bans.

[Chloe]

My community has guns. That's why they're not here.

Unless the criminals have some sort of way of seeing through walls or unless you sit on your porch with a gun of your lap there is no way that someone would know whether or not your home is armed.

[Chloe]

My community has guns. That's why they're not here.

So does most of Texas.

Most of these shootings happen in places with gun bans.

So most shootings in the state of Texas only happens in areas with gun bans?

[Agravan]

Not to sound like a jerk but how many criminals are walking around your community right now with assault weapons that you are currently defending youself from?
Do you really think these people are stupid enough to advertise the fact until they use them? C'mon Chloe, you are smarter than that. A bit naive, but generally smart and thoughtful. I do appreciate your posts and find them thought provoking. Please don't fall into the liberal mindset and belligerence like Cigar.

[Agravan]

Unless the criminals have some sort of way of seeing through walls or unless you sit on your porch with a gun of your lap there is no way that someone would know whether or not your home is armed.

But most Texas homes are armed. Would you be willing to risk it? Some are, and they are quickly removed from the gene pool.
By the way, believe it or not, there are liberal areas in Texas. North Austin, for example. Some areas in Dallas and Houston. We still have carpetbagging liberals here.

[Agravan]

So most shootings in the state of Texas only happens in areas with gun bans?
Most criminals are cowards, so yes, for the most part.

[Chloe]

Do you really think these people are stupid enough to advertise the fact until they use them? C'mon Chloe, you are smarter than that. A bit naive, but generally smart and thoughtful. I do appreciate your posts and find them thought provoking. Please don't fall into the liberal mindset and belligerence like Cigar.

Thank you for saying that I do appreciate it. And yes I know I am probably naive about certain things, But all I am saying is that there is this idea out there that if you can't own a small arsenal in your home then gangs of violent criminals are going to attack. It's like something out of the new batman movie or something. I just don't think that it's as unsafe out there as a lot of gun advocates will make it appear just because they want to defend a gun.

[hanger4]

you can limit something without it being the equivalent to something like prohibition. Everybody is trying to think of ways it would fail instead of ways that it could be successful. Why make murder illegal when someone will still commit murder? If you can't buy a large gun that can shoot dozens of bullets in a few seconds is it really going to be the end of the world for someone?

Fire arms are limited.

I don't know what you mean by "a large gun that can shoot dozens of bullets",

if you're referring to the one used at the school it's actually kind a small caliber

and one fire per trigger pull.

[Chloe]

Fire arms are limited.

I don't know what you mean by "a large gun that can shoot dozens of bullets",

if you're referring to the one used at the school it's actually kind a small caliber

and one fire per trigger pull.

I meant guns that you don't hav to physically reload after every shot

[GrumpyDog]

IMO, close range, rapid firing semi auto rifles should be banned, and citizens should only be allowed to own long range, sniper rifles, with mandatory suppressor.

This is in keeping with a well regulated militia, and being the underdogs in any potential revolution, the citizens will be having to resort to guerilla warfare anyway, so sniping from long range, silently, is the best chance of terminating the target and then escaping undetected. Before the government predator drone can launch a missile back.

[zelmo1234]

There were reported at least 6 weapons he could have choose from that were immediately at hand. The fact that he didn't take the hunting rifle or shotgun into the school should be a major argument in favor of assault-style or what ever to want to call it .. gun regulation control.

He made a conscious choice of semi-automatic rifle and hand guns that were sure to swiftly inflict the desired damage.

Yes he did make a choice and left the assult rifle in the car???? He chose that handguns just like I would choose those in a pinch in a defensive situation because you can have it whre you need it.

The real question is are we willing to make the tough cnoices that will actually prevent this and not increase it.

If we would look at a way to identify these mentally ill people and get that invformation to the FBI so they could not purchase any gun. If it is logicalical and would not be filled with fruad, I wold support something like that. And while it would not have stopped this shooting, it would in fact have stopped Fort Hood, and The WVA shooting.

Joe Klein (TIME) made this paraphrased ... but pertinent observation earlier today on Morning Joe.

This is germane to the discussion to some type of regulation ... In my opinion.

[GrassrootsConservative]

I meant guns that you don't hav to physically reload after every shot

You want to restrict it to over-the-shoulder launchers and snipe rifles?

[hanger4]

I meant guns that you don't hav to physically reload after every shot

Semi automatic.

Which includes almost all pistols.

All of which are limited/regulated.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Semi automatic.

Which includes almost all pistols.

All of which are limited/regulated.

I always thought the only single-shot-per-reload guns were snipe rifles and over-the-shoulder launchers?

[Mister D]

I had to have an 1866 model Chassepot rifle delivered to a local gun shop instead of to my house. I bought it from a man in Maine. It cost me an extra $50 and the hassle of picking it up. Idiotic regulations like this are what dismays me most. No, I'm not willing to suffer this nonsense gladly for the fucking children. It's idiotic.

[hanger4]

IMO, close range, rapid firing semi auto rifles should be banned, and citizens should only be allowed to own long range, sniper rifles, with mandatory suppressor.

This is in keeping with a well regulated militia, and being the underdogs in any potential revolution, the citizens will be having to resort to guerilla warfare anyway, so sniping from long range, silently, is the best chance of terminating the target and then escaping undetected. Before the government predator drone can launch a missile back.

WTH is "rapid firing semi auto" ??

Semi auto is one fire per trigger pull.

"a well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear arms"

are not related to one another.

[zelmo1234]

I meant guns that you don't hav to physically reload after every shot

Here is the problem with this, In defensive situations on of the best weapons in the world is a pump shotgun. I use it for security situations all the time a
s it tends to clam the situation quickly. They make these same shotguns in Semi auto, but I can shoot my pump as fast or faster, and in the trained hand the return stroke of the slide puts the gun on target for the second shot

I have also never had this weapon jam, and I can relod it in seconds with 9 rounds. under the 10 that the Liberals do not like. With defensive rounds of buckshot, and a trained shooter one could have wiped out a theater. But we are not addressing that???????

You see it is not the tool, it is the mind of the criminal, and you can not defend against that? But you can prepare, and that preparation keeps you safe.

In the dangerous areas of the world, security forces open carry so peopel will see their weapons, a fovorite is the old 1911, carried in the cocked and locked position to tell those around you you are not in the mood for trouble. This show of force keeps those that might have thought about an assult looking for greener pastures. Making areas that are gun free does just the opposite. And that is what people want to do when a madman strikes.

[Agravan]

Semi automatic.

Which includes almost all pistols.

All of which are limited/regulated.

Even revolvers hold 5-6 rounds before reloading.

[hanger4]

I always thought the only single-shot-per-reload guns were snipe rifles and over-the-shoulder launchers?

Bolt action, lever action (Winchester style), pump shotguns are all single shot.

All a semi auto is, is a cartridge reloads immediately after ejecting the previous shot (spent) casing and ready to pull the trigger again.

[GrumpyDog]

WTH is "rapid firing semi auto" ??

Semi auto is one fire per trigger pull.

"a well regulated militia" and "the right of the people to keep and bear arms"

The typical AK-47 or M-16/AR-15 military style "assault" rifle sold is capable of rapid fire because you can operate the trigger 3 times in one second, thus fire 3 shots/second, and with high capacity ammo clip, of 30 rounds, thus you could fire 30 rounds in 10 seconds, ie. kill 30 people in 10 seconds.

Semi auto ejects the spent cartridge and chambers a new round in half a second or less, therefore, "rapid fire" is an appropriate description. Unlike bolt action rifle, which takes average shooter, about 3 seconds/shot, including aiming, and pulling trigger. And usually, no more that about 7 rounds. So at least only 7 people potentially die, and the last targeted person has about 20 seconds to run away, as opposed to a mere 3.5 seconds if the rifle had been the military type semi auto assault rifle.

[zelmo1234]

The typical AK-47 or M-16/AR-15 military style "assault" rifle sold is capable of rapid fire because you can operate the trigger 3 times in one second, thus fire 3 shots/second, and with high capacity ammo clip, of 30 rounds, thus you could fire 30 rounds in 10 seconds, ie. kill 30 people in 10 seconds.

Semi auto ejects the spent cartridge and chambers a new round in half a second or less, therefore, "rapid fire" is an appropriate description. Unlike bolt action rifle, which takes average shooter, about 3 seconds/shot, including aiming, and pulling trigger. And usually, no more that about 7 rounds. So at least only 7 people potentially die, and the last targeted person has about 20 seconds to run away, as opposed to a mere 3.5 seconds if the rifle had been the military type semi auto assault rifle.

Are you aware of recoil? even the military that opperate their weapons on automatic, learn to fire in 3 shot bursts because it is impossible to control the muzzle.

This is why I have a problem with people that do not understand Guns making laws, because you only put citizens at risk.

And all of these laws would not have prevented this situation. It is a the mind of the mad person that causes these things to happen, limiting the legal ownership of a firearm only puts incent people at risk.

What would have stopped this, and armed guard or teacher at the school? but that is not the agenda of a liberal. You want to blame the object because the system that you created failed.

[Mister D]

The typical AK-47 or M-16/AR-15 military style "assault" rifle sold is capable of rapid fire because you can operate the trigger 3 times in one second, thus fire 3 shots/second, and with high capacity ammo clip, of 30 rounds, thus you could fire 30 rounds in 10 seconds, ie. kill 30 people in 10 seconds.

Semi auto ejects the spent cartridge and chambers a new round in half a second or less, therefore, "rapid fire" is an appropriate description. Unlike bolt action rifle, which takes average shooter, about 3 seconds/shot, including aiming, and pulling trigger. And usually, no more that about 7 rounds. So at least only 7 people potentially die, and the last targeted person has about 20 seconds to run away, as opposed to a mere 3.5 seconds if the rifle had been the military type semi auto assault rifle.

You cannot operate a trigger three times in one second. You must actually pull the trigger in semi-automatic mode and you cannot do that three times in one second. The fact that you are ignorant of how firearms actually work is no surprise.

[Chris]

This is old but does a good job demonstrating the differences:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yATeti5GmI8

[Chloe]

You want to restrict it to over-the-shoulder launchers and snipe rifles?

No I just mean that if we can't get rid of selling all types of guns then in my opinion guns like basic hunting type rifles, like what you would use to go hunt deer or something, could be sold but not handguns or the bigger guns that can hold a lot of bullets and shoot without taking out a bullet and putting another one back in after every shot. I'm sorry if my descriptions aren't very good. I don't own a gun and i've never held or fired one so I don't know how to completely describe what is in my head.

[GrumpyDog]

Are you aware of recoil? even the military that opperate their weapons on automatic, learn to fire in 3 shot bursts because it is impossible to control the muzzle.

This is why I have a problem with people that do not understand Guns making laws, because you only put citizens at risk.

And all of these laws would not have prevented this situation. It is a the mind of the mad person that causes these things to happen, limiting the legal ownership of a firearm only puts incent people at risk.

What would have stopped this, and armed guard or teacher at the school? but that is not the agenda of a liberal. You want to blame the object because the system that you created failed.

Apparently the crazy kid did not know how to expertly use the 3 shot burst method, thus resorted to letting it rip, with enough bullets flying everywhere , adequately, if not expertly, killing 23 in short order.

[GrumpyDog]

You cannot operate a trigger three times in one second. You must actually pull the trigger in semi-automatic mode and you cannot do that three times in one second. The fact that you are ignorant of how firearms actually work is no surprise.

I have fired an AK-47, and yes, you can rapidly fire almost as fast as full auto, in semi auto selection. Likewise, have fired Beretta 92FS 9 mm pistol, firing 15 rounds in less than 7 seconds. Also, M1911-A1, M3A1 subMG, M60 MG, and 12 gauge semi auto shot gun.

The crazy kid, who did not even have combat experience, proves how rapidly people die with just a semi auto version of M-16 rifle.

[GrumpyDog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4BeJ-64294

SEMI AUTO AK, and SEMI AUTO PISTOL.

I have done this same rate of fire, when I once owned an AK-47.

The police guy,was intentionally firing slow, as part of propaganda to nullify popularity of the AK-47

[Red Green]

Right but again that doesn't mean you don't try just because it may not be perfect

Chloe your idea is an atypical stereotype of the liberal knee jerk reaction to tragedies like this which are usually "rare" by the way

Instead of preventing and restricting access for law abiding citizens why don't yoy just accept the fact that some people out there are really screwed up

If guns are banned don't you think they will still be available on the black market or that some crazy could just make a bomb to kill lots of people

The 9/11 assailants had box cutters so I mean a group of crazies with box cutters and a can gasoline could make em lay on the floor and burn them to a crisp

The problem is not guns rather a moral decline and the acceptance of degenerative behavior as normal

[Red Green]

Even revolvers hold 5-6 rounds before reloading.


My Smith n Wesson 38 never jams either.

[Red Green]

No I just mean that if we can't get rid of selling all types of guns then in my opinion guns like basic hunting type rifles, like what you would use to go hunt deer or something, could be sold but not handguns or the bigger guns that can hold a lot of bullets and shoot without taking out a bullet and putting another one back in after every shot. I'm sorry if my descriptions aren't very good. I don't own a gun and i've never held or fired one so I don't know how to completely describe what is in my head.

So what about all those guns ALREADY in peoples homes and on the streets is the military gonna go door to door and confiscate all the current weapons or would they be grandfathered in?

[GrumpyDog]

So what about all those guns ALREADY in peoples homes and on the streets is the military gonna go door to door and confiscate all the current weapons or would they be grandfathered in?

Hey, do not know what the correct solution is, but I do know, from my own experience of once owning a Mak 90, Chinese made, semi auto only, version of AK-47, that you can fire 3 round per second, or as fast as you are capable of moving your finger back and forth.

Never tried the bump fire technique, but have seen enough videos that are convincing that it does indeed make the weapon fire like a full auto. I doubt seriously, if someone would be using a full auto assault rifle on film, (that ATF enforcement might see also), then fraudulently claim it was only on semi auto. ATF experts would know immediately, so the person would be incriminating himself, just to make a YouTube video.

[Chloe]

So what about all those guns ALREADY in peoples homes and on the streets is the military gonna go door to door and confiscate all the current weapons or would they be grandfathered in?

No I wouldn't say to go door to door, they can keep what they already legally own. I am just saying not to make certain styles of guns anymore.

[hanger4]

No I wouldn't say to go door to door, they can keep what they already legally own. I am just saying not to make certain styles of guns anymore.

Then you need to be specific about what styles of guns you mean.

If I remember correctly you stated semi auto should be banned, if so then you are including nearly every pistol manufactured since 1846.

[Mister D]

...that you can fire 3 round per second, or as fast as you are capable of moving your finger back and forth.


Right. As fast as you can pull the trigger which you cannot do 3 times in one second let alone with anything approaching accuracy.

[hanger4]

Right. As fast as you can pull the trigger which you cannot do 3 times in one second let alone with anything approaching accuracy.

Bump firing might get you to 3 per second, but all it does is use the recoil of the rifle (which is quicker) to simulate the moment of your stationary finger.

And as you stated, accuracy, would be a thing of the past.

[Taxcutter]

It took the police twenty minutes to respond. The shooter could have used a Springfield M1861 and still easily killed twenty-odd people.

When seconds counted the police were a third of an hour away.



An assault rifle is one that has a selective automatic fire feature.
A rifle that is semiautomatic only is a rifle.
A weapon that is automatic fire only is a machinegun.

[Cigar]

It took the police twenty minutes to respond. The shooter could have used a Springfield M1861 and still easily killed twenty-odd people.

When seconds counted the police were a third of an hour away.



An assault rifle is one that has a selective automatic fire feature.
A rifle that is semiautomatic only is a rifle.
A weapon that is automatic fire only is a machinegun.


Excuse me, you may want to do a little more researching ...

One of the Children was shoot Eleven (11) times ... all of then more than once

[hanger4]

Excuse me, you may want to do a little more researching ...

One of the Children was shoot Eleven (11) times ... all of then more than once

Why Cigar ??

There's nothing Taxcutter said that isn't true.

[Cigar]

Why Cigar ??

There's nothing Taxcutter said that isn't true.

Really ... the average time to load a 17th Century Musket is over 15 to 20 seconds, and that's if you did it correctly.

One child was shoot ELEVEN (11) TIMES

What part are you having problems digesting?

Come on guys ... really ... what are you trying to defend?

[hanger4]

Really ... the average time to load a 17th Century Musket is over 15 to 20 seconds, and that's if you did it correctly.

One child was shoot ELEVEN (11) TIMES

What part are you having problems digesting?

Come on guys ... really ... what are you trying to defend?


This musket was used in the 19th century and was the most used during the War Between the States.

The average soldier could easily fire ten shots in five minutes.

That's 40 fires in 20min. Cigar.

I've done my research !!

[Cigar]

This musket was used in the 19th century and was the most used during the War Between the States.

The average soldier could easily fire ten shots in five minutes.

That's 40 fires in 20min. Cigar.

I've done my research !!

Obviously not enough. Police Cheif said, the children were shot multiple times. That 40 if he only shot each child twice. The reports are, many kids were shot 5 and 6 times, with at lease one child shot 11 times. Also the police Cheif said there were at least 100 shots.

I know Math isn't a strong point with Conservatives, but please, this is simple addition.

Come on, a musket? Please.

[hanger4]

Obviously not enough. Police Cheif said, the children were shot multiple times. That 40 if he only shot each child twice. The reports are, many kids were shot 5 and 6 times, with at lease one child shot 11 times. Also the police Cheif said there were at least 100 shots.

I know Math isn't a strong point with Conservatives, but please, this is simple addition.

Come on, a musket? Please.

Taxcutter never mentioned how many shots were fired,

he only said a Springfield M 1861 could kill as many children as Lanza did in the time it took the police to get there.

BTW the Springfield M 1861 is a .58 caliber at that close range it probably would have killed two with one shot.

You can read into Taxcutters post whatever you wish, but it still don't make you right.

Words mean things.

[zelmo1234]

Hey, do not know what the correct solution is, but I do know, from my own experience of once owning a Mak 90, Chinese made, semi auto only, version of AK-47, that you can fire 3 round per second, or as fast as you are capable of moving your finger back and forth.

Never tried the bump fire technique, but have seen enough videos that are convincing that it does indeed make the weapon fire like a full auto. I doubt seriously, if someone would be using a full auto assault rifle on film, (that ATF enforcement might see also), then fraudulently claim it was only on semi auto. ATF experts would know immediately, so the person would be incriminating himself, just to make a YouTube video.

There are people like myself that have C3's that are allowed to own automatic weapons.

So they could put them on film with no threat of breaking the law.

So when you fired you gun as fast as you could, how accurate were you? If you wonder why our armed forces ar so succesful in fire fights it is bacause the opponates in Iraq and Afganistan are not well trainied and run around shooting. They get real nervious when people shoot back, just like these crazy people do when the second guns shows up on the scene?

[zelmo1234]

Really ... the average time to load a 17th Century Musket is over 15 to 20 seconds, and that's if you did it correctly.

One child was shoot ELEVEN (11) TIMES

What part are you having problems digesting?

Come on guys ... really ... what are you trying to defend?


So we ban assult weapons and mags over 10 rounds what are you going to do with the hundreds of thousands of guns that are out there and the million of mag's

Are you going to take them from the people that legally own them?

[zelmo1234]

Not to sound like a jerk but how many criminals are walking around your community right now with assault weapons that you are currently defending youself from?

Remember that they consider semi automatick pistols that hold more than 10 rounds Assult weapons, so this being the prefered weapon of the Criminal, I would say a lot.

[hanger4]

Remember that they consider semi automatick pistols that hold more than 10 rounds Assult weapons, so this being the prefered weapon of the Criminal, I would say a lot.

Just drop the 10 or more round clip and get the 9 round clip.

Then it's no longer an assault weapon.

Two pistols, two less shots than children killed by Lanza.

[zelmo1234]

Just drop the 10 or more round clip and get the 9 round clip.

Then it's no longer an assault weapon.

Two pistols, two less shots than children killed by Lanza.

I just picked up my wilson combat Elite Professional today. It hold a total of 9 rounds, and it tricked out to the max!

This gun will be legal after there assult weapons ban. After a break in period of about 500 rounds it will be among the most accurate and reliable hindgun in the world.

These Liberals think that the gun is actually the problem If this Idiot fired 100 rounds from an AR15 and only killed 26 people we are lucky he did not know what he was doing.

This 1911 pistol that I just received is of course 45 Auto and packs a massive punch. If some how they could ban and collect all of the assult weapons, this in the wrong hands would be even more dangerous in the hands of someone that knows how to use it.

Besides they are the ones that promote the policies that lead to the moral decline. The have to balme the Gun or it could be these policies that they support that could be called into question.

[zelmo1234]

Once again ... we're not talking about someone who used a bat ... are we?

Maybe if there would not have been an assult weapons ban Tim McVey would have used a Gun instead of fertilizer and racing fuel, and some of the 168 people that were killed and 600+ that were wounded would still be alive?

But you seem to be OK with fertilizer and racing fuel???? Why? he killes more that all of these shootings combined???

[GrumpyDog]

A revolver can do that, Cigar. hell, so can a baseball bat.


A revolver, usually having only 6 rounds, and more difficult trigger pull, and taking longer to reload, is not nearly the killing machine that a Bushmaster M-16 or AR-15 type semi auto rifle, with 30 round clip, or 100 round drum, is.

And I have already posted videos showing the capability of firing these semi auto rifles nearly as rapidly as if they were full auto.

Gun ownership has gone from self defense, hunting, to becoming a sporting hobby, where the shooter goes from shooting paper targets, to shooting objects, then groups of objects, then cars and buildings, then on to animals for sheer sport, and eventually, to people.

It is the psychology, the culture, of promoting this "casual" sporting use of high capacity military rifles, as no more harmless than archery, or skeet shooting, which IMO is a problem.

[GrumpyDog]

Maybe if there would not have been an assult weapons ban Tim McVey would have used a Gun instead of fertilizer and racing fuel, and some of the 168 people that were killed and 600+ that were wounded would still be alive?

But you seem to be OK with fertilizer and racing fuel???? Why? he killes more that all of these shootings combined???



The problem, as I see it, is some kind of psychology which is being used IMO by the advertising agencies, the media, and the movie industry, which is promoting the idea of violence as "normal" and "typical", and in some cases, "desirable" as the first option in any dispute.

Additionally, there is too much pressure in American society to be "elite", to be "spectacular" to be "perfect". The culture begins, in elementary school, and also in religious culture, and is reinforced by distinctions in economic status. The children begin to learn who is "worthy" and who is "cursed" from all the indoctrination. There is also the media, which promotes "image", thus framing a superficial construct of "beauty" and "wealth", as the desirable goal in life. Thus, those who fail, or refuse, or are just uniquely intelligent, imaginative, and have different abilities, are marginalized, sometimes bullied, and suffer emotional distress, at an early age.

This is why the idea of a more standardized economy, with less disparity, and a more sensible distribution of resources that take care of the 3 basic needs of all humans, food, clothing, shelter, is a model, which should be given some more consideration. Not calling for Marxism or Communism, but just a better means of distribution, using the more advanced technology of machines and computers available.

[zelmo1234]

A revolver, usually having only 6 rounds, and more difficult trigger pull, and taking longer to reload, is not nearly the killing machine that a Bushmaster M-16 or AR-15 type semi auto rifle, with 30 round clip, or 100 round drum, is.

And I have already posted videos showing the capability of firing these semi auto rifles nearly as rapidly as if they were full auto.

Gun ownership has gone from self defense, hunting, to becoming a sporting hobby, where the shooter goes from shooting paper targets, to shooting objects, then groups of objects, then cars and buildings, then on to animals for sheer sport, and eventually, to people.

It is the psychology, the culture, of promoting this "casual" sporting use of high capacity military rifles, as no more harmless than archery, or skeet shooting, which IMO is a problem.

I have a 22 mag revolver that hold 8 roungs with a sped loader I can reload in less that 3 seconds and I really doubut that you could tell the rate of fire differenct etween this and my 9mm because of less recoil, and buy the way I have neatly the same hitting power as the 223 at short range.

Now as for the second part with your vidoe it was intertaining but did younotice that the person at a range of about 12 feet not only shot all over the 55 gal drum, but he missed is several times at that rate of fire. meaning that at a sistance of 25 feet he woudl have missed a lot, and if you really want to aave some fun shoot at himt with a paint ball gun while he is firing even at that range, and he will miss that target over 60% of the time.

And last please show your facts as how we as gun owners are moving toward killing people? It would seem that violent crime is dropping?

So maybe the opposite is true?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x339669

[zelmo1234]

The problem, as I see it, is some kind of psychology which is being used IMO by the advertising agencies, the media, and the movie industry, which is promoting the idea of violence as "normal" and "typical", and in some cases, "desirable" as the first option in any dispute.

Additionally, there is too much pressure in American society to be "elite", to be "spectacular" to be "perfect". The culture begins, in elementary school, and also in religious culture, and is reinforced by distinctions in economic status. The children begin to learn who is "worthy" and who is "cursed" from all the indoctrination. There is also the media, which promotes "image", thus framing a superficial construct of "beauty" and "wealth", as the desirable goal in life. Thus, those who fail, or refuse, or are just uniquely intelligent, imaginative, and have different abilities, are marginalized, sometimes bullied, and suffer emotional distress, at an early age.

This is why the idea of a more standardized economy, with less disparity, and a more sensible distribution of resources that take care of the 3 basic needs of all humans, food, clothing, shelter, is a model, which should be given some more consideration. Not calling for Marxism or Communism, but just a better means of distribution, using the more advanced technology of machines and computers available.

Intersting argument (but you still seem to be OK with fertilizer and racing fuel)

Next exactly what you are talking about is somewhere between socialism and comunism

The only possible need to fail in this country is the total failure of the public educations system that is about indoctrination and not education

However the policies of President Obama have in fact widened the economic gap not closed it. the poor and middle class ahve lost a large percentage of there wealth and income ender his guidence.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/22/news/economy/middle-class-pew/index.html

You see I have no reason to invest in an economy that demands more than 50% in taxation by the time I pay all state, federal, fica and local taxes.

Will I be OK yes! but I will pay a lot less to the government and I will not employ people the people that I do not employ will not buy cars or build homes ect.

Distribution of wealth assumes there is only a certain amount of money to go around, and this is the falsehood of liberalism.

Now if you are un able to make it because of lack of desire or fear of loss, I understand that, I went flat out broke on my first attempt as many if not most do, and is sucks to ahve to start over, but that is a chosen place in life, and those that choos that lifestyle should not receive the same rewards as those that put everything they own and have and are on the line to make a business thrive.

And NO Obama did not build my business.