Rand Paul Slams Indefinite Detention

[Ethereal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne5ypLufeGQ

Bravo, Senator Paul.

[Don]

Deja vu. Rand speaks the truth just like his father before him. But its usually in front of a near empty chamber in the wee hours of the morning just to get the truth on the record. The establishment doesn't want any part of that truth.

[Ethereal]

Deja vu. Rand speaks the truth just like his father before him. But its usually in front of a near empty chamber in the wee hours of the morning just to get the truth on the record. The establishment doesn't want any part of that truth.
When the country cares more about Stormy Daniels than they do about the bill of rights, you know we're in deep trouble.

[Agent Zero]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35488774_2490416100969353_8483419523318284288_n.pn g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6db8383fcd1977066dbaa3382a37726b&oe=5BAF44F7

[MisterVeritis]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35488774_2490416100969353_8483419523318284288_n.pn g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6db8383fcd1977066dbaa3382a37726b&oe=5BAF44F7
Whose law is it?

[Agent Zero]

Whose law is it?
Your Supreme Leader's.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/29/donald-trump/trump-blames-democrat-own-policy-separating-family/

President Donald Trump wrongly blamed Democrats for his own administrator’s immigration policy.
"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there (sic) parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.," Trump tweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1000375761604370434).
Trump recently told (https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4729799/democrats-break-families) Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, "I know what you're going through right now with families is very tough, but those are the bad laws that the Democrats gave us. We have to break up families."
But there is no law that mandates separating children from their parents. Trump’s own administration devised a policy to that effect.
So what is Trump talking about?
Whenever parents are charged with a federal misdemeanor (entry without inspection in this case), or awaiting trial, they are placed in the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service. Children cannot go to jail, so they are transferred to the custody of Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement. They are then placed with relatives, juvenile detention centers or foster care. That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us.
Before the Trump administration, immigrants entering illegally as families were rarely prosecuted, said Sarah Pierce, an associate policy analyst of the U.S. Immigration Program at the Migration Policy Institute. Instead, immigrants were held in family detention centers until they were sent to appear before an immigration court or deported.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry) on April 6 the Homeland Security Department would now be referring all illegal border crossings to the Justice Department for prosecution. Facing criminal charges, parents would go to detention centers, leaving their children unaccompanied.
It’s the decision to prosecute parents that is causing the separations.
"That’s a choice they have made that’s largely different from what other administrations have done," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law.
When we asked for evidence of policies separating families, the White House referred us to items determining what happens to unaccompanied immigrant minors. But none of the children in question would be deemed unaccompanied if the Trump administration did not decide to prosecute their parents.
The 1997 Flores Settlement Agreement, for example, calls for the release of unaccompanied minors to family members or sponsors who can care for them as their immigration case is resolved. The Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008, which Trump has wrongly called (http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2018/may/11/donald-trump/ohio-trump-misleads-blaming-democrats-catch-and-re/) "a Democrat rule," determines that unaccompanied minors be transferred to Health and Human Services custody.
The White House argued such policies encourage parents to send their children into the United States, knowing they will be promptly released.
"The cruel and inhumane open borders policies of the Democratic Party are responsible for encouraging mass illegal migration, enabling horrendous child smuggling, and releasing violent MS-13 gang members into American communities," White House deputy press secretary Hogan Gidley said in an emailed statement.
The Trump administration may believe that Democrats are responsible for policies that encourage illegal border crossing, but we found no law mandating that children be separated from their parents.
Our ruling
Trump said a "horrible law" requires that children be separated from their parents "once they cross the Border into the U.S."
There is no such law. The Homeland Security Department’s longstanding policy is to separate children from their custodians when they are referred for criminal prosecution. Trump’s administration has decided to prosecute all illegal crossings. Families were rarely prosecuted under previous administrations.
We rate this statement False.

[Agent Zero]

That may just be this year's winner of Lie of the Year...

[MisterVeritis]

Your Supreme Leader's.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/29/donald-trump/trump-blames-democrat-own-policy-separating-family/

President Donald Trump wrongly blamed Democrats for his own administrator’s immigration policy.
"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there (sic) parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.," Trump tweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1000375761604370434).
Trump recently told (https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4729799/democrats-break-families) Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, "I know what you're going through right now with families is very tough, but those are the bad laws that the Democrats gave us. We have to break up families."
But there is no law that mandates separating children from their parents. Trump’s own administration devised a policy to that effect.
So what is Trump talking about?
Whenever parents are charged with a federal misdemeanor (entry without inspection in this case), or awaiting trial, they are placed in the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service. Children cannot go to jail, so they are transferred to the custody of Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement. They are then placed with relatives, juvenile detention centers or foster care. That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us.
Before the Trump administration, immigrants entering illegally as families were rarely prosecuted, said Sarah Pierce, an associate policy analyst of the U.S. Immigration Program at the Migration Policy Institute. Instead, immigrants were held in family detention centers until they were sent to appear before an immigration court or deported.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry) on April 6 the Homeland Security Department would now be referring all illegal border crossings to the Justice Department for prosecution. Facing criminal charges, parents would go to detention centers, leaving their children unaccompanied.
It’s the decision to prosecute parents that is causing the separations.
"That’s a choice they have made that’s largely different from what other administrations have done," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law.
When we asked for evidence of policies separating families, the White House referred us to items determining what happens to unaccompanied immigrant minors. But none of the children in question would be deemed unaccompanied if the Trump administration did not decide to prosecute their parents.
The 1997 Flores Settlement Agreement, for example, calls for the release of unaccompanied minors to family members or sponsors who can care for them as their immigration case is resolved. The Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008, which Trump has wrongly called (http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2018/may/11/donald-trump/ohio-trump-misleads-blaming-democrats-catch-and-re/) "a Democrat rule," determines that unaccompanied minors be transferred to Health and Human Services custody.
The White House argued such policies encourage parents to send their children into the United States, knowing they will be promptly released.
"The cruel and inhumane open borders policies of the Democratic Party are responsible for encouraging mass illegal migration, enabling horrendous child smuggling, and releasing violent MS-13 gang members into American communities," White House deputy press secretary Hogan Gidley said in an emailed statement.
The Trump administration may believe that Democrats are responsible for policies that encourage illegal border crossing, but we found no law mandating that children be separated from their parents.
Our ruling
Trump said a "horrible law" requires that children be separated from their parents "once they cross the Border into the U.S."
There is no such law. The Homeland Security Department’s longstanding policy is to separate children from their custodians when they are referred for criminal prosecution. Trump’s administration has decided to prosecute all illegal crossings. Families were rarely prosecuted under previous administrations.
We rate this statement False.



"That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us."

In other words, it is the same policy that was in place during the Barack Hussein O administration.

You are so easily led by the nose. Do you have a ring through it?

[MisterVeritis]

That may just be this year's winner of Lie of the Year...
The truth is you are easily misled. It was the same policy under Barack Hussein O.

[Agent Zero]

"That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us."

In other words, it is the same policy that was in place during the Barack Hussein O administration.

You are so easily led by the nose. Do you have a ring through it?

Where did you get that?
Link.

[MisterVeritis]

Where did you get that?
Link.
It was from your story above:

Whenever parents are charged with a federal misdemeanor (entry without inspection in this case), or awaiting trial, they are placed in the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service. Children cannot go to jail, so they are transferred to the custody of Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement. They are then placed with relatives, juvenile detention centers or foster care.


That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us.


Did you not read the cut and paste job you posted?

[Dr. Who]

It was from your story above:

Whenever parents are charged with a federal misdemeanor (entry without inspection in this case), or awaiting trial, they are placed in the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service. Children cannot go to jail, so they are transferred to the custody of Health and Human Services’ Office of Refugee Resettlement. They are then placed with relatives, juvenile detention centers or foster care.


That’s a longstanding Homeland Security policy, DHS told us.


Did you not read the cut and paste job you posted?

Do you think that there was ever a time when children were put in jail?

[Ethereal]

Rand Paul isn't talking about immigration policy, he's talking about the NDAA.


(ACLU) PRESIDENT OBAMA SIGNS INDEFINITE DETENTION BILL INTO LAW (https://www.aclu.org/news/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-bill-law)

[Ethereal]

Who is a Terrorist? (http://pandaunite.org/who-is-a-terrorist/)

The U.S. Government seems to think everyone is. If you are “reverent of individual liberty”, “suspicious of centralized federal authority”, “pay with cash”, “travel illogical distances”, “stockpile food” and any or all of the above (including over 200 other clues) you are a suspected terrorist.

Here are the documents to prove it. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has over twenty different flyers they routinely give to business owners to “fight terrorism”, otherwise known as reporting your neighbor. They are listed here as well as a Missouri MIAC Report and a START report on Hotspots of Terrorism in the United States. There have been several incidents around the country where even complaining about your tap water can be considered an act of terrorism.

Meeting one single requirement in any of these flyers/reports is enough to make someone a “suspected terrorist”, and therefore covered by the NDAA.

Welcome to 1984.

[Ethereal]

From the Department of Homeland Security:


(U) animal rights extremism: (U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who ascribe equal value to all living organisms and seek to end the perceived abuse and suffering of animals. They believe animals are sentient creatures that experience emotional, physical, and mental awareness and deserve many of thesame rights as human beings; for example, the right to life and freedom to engage in normal, instinctive animal behavior. These groups have been known to advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts of violence and terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals. They have targeted industries, businesses, and government entities that they perceive abuse or exploit animals, including those that use animals for testing, human services, food production, or consumption.
(also: animal liberation)

Notice how they make no attempt to distinguish between peaceful animal rights activism and criminality. I wonder if they've put Chloe on a watch-list yet.

[MisterVeritis]

Do you think that there was ever a time when children were put in jail?
Do you think there was ever a time when you were not led so easily by people intent on deceiving you?

[MisterVeritis]

These groups have been known to advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts of violence and terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals. They have targeted industries, businesses, and government entities that they perceive abuse or exploit animals...

Notice how they make no attempt to distinguish between peaceful animal rights activism and criminality. I wonder if they've put Chloe on a watch-list yet.
What is peaceful about criminal activity, violence and terrorism? Can you remember a time when you were not yet radical?

[Dr. Who]

Do you think there was ever a time when you were not led so easily by people intent on deceiving you?
I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. Was there ever a time when the children of illegals who were arrested, were ever put in jail? Presumably, if this was purely Obama policy, prior to 2008, children were jailed with their parents. This is what you are suggesting is it not?

[MisterVeritis]

I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. Was there ever a time when the children of illegals who were arrested, were ever put in jail? Presumably, if this was purely Obama policy, prior to 2008, children were jailed with their parents. This is what you are suggesting is it not?
The children are not put in jail. Did you bother to read what that goofy ignoramus cut and pasted?

[Dr. Who]

The children are not put in jail. Did you bother to read what that goofy ignoramus cut and pasted?

Then the allegation that this is a policy instigated by Obama is disingenuous. Children of illegals who are arrested and charged have never been jailed and there has never been a policy of separating children, other than not sending them to jail. So when Trump tweeted:

"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there (sic) parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.," and "I know what you're going through right now with families is very tough, but those are the bad laws that the Democrats gave us. We have to break up families."

It was not the truth. Children in detention centers are not now, nor ever were separated from their parents when the parents were not arrested, charged and jailed. The fact that Trump made an executive order mandating those found removable by final order jailed and the children as a result separated has nothing to do with Obama policies, but the pictures of crying children are making Trump look heartless, so he's trying to deflect the blame to nonexistent Obama laws.

[Tahuyaman]

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35488774_2490416100969353_8483419523318284288_n.pn g?_nc_cat=0&oh=6db8383fcd1977066dbaa3382a37726b&oe=5BAF44F7

It’s been the law for decades.

[roadmaster]

"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there (sic) parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.," and "I know what you're going through right now with families is very tough, but those are the bad laws that the Democrats gave us. We have to break up families." No it is true. Bush his last year or two because so many were seeking asylum and the courts were backlogged, he told border patrol if it was a family with no federal crimes or reenter and no reason for them to flee just give them a court date and don't split the families. When Obama took office he wanted to look tough on crime. The ones caught were split up until their court dates even if they came through the correct way and gave themselves to agents. That changed in 2014, all of a sudden border patrol could no longer question anyone as long as they said they had no criminal record without verifying because that's racist, claim they were a dreamer, and even the ones picked up by local police committing crimes and could only hold them for so long for ICE, ICE wasn't sent so they had to let them out the back door. That is why many sheriffs were upset they were letting out rapist, and all types of crimes because they could only hold them for so long.

Now I admit Bush tried except most of the ones let go never went to the court dates to pled their case. The intentions were good but the result of having now to stop the catch and release because it was abused and led to open borders without consequences even if you broke federal crime laws.

[Ethereal]

This thread is not about detentions related to immigration, it's about detentions related to the NDAA.

[Common]

When americans break the law they are detained and separated from their children

[roadmaster]

When americans break the law they are detained and separated from their children Correct but the media loves to lie. They want to sway public opinion or have rights defending a lie they make up. There was no caged child and the next lie they will be yelling about they will claim a woman was deported without her 8 year old child. It's coming watch. They have taken pictures of young American kids claiming these are making the journey to America. Even the washed up body of a young boy in Canada was a lie. They wanted people to be outraged over a lie. While they will hide real facts of human trafficking, people who they claim are kids with full tattoos knowing these are hard gang members not pre teens but in their 20's and 30's.

[Captdon]

I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. Was there ever a time when the children of illegals who were arrested, were ever put in jail? Presumably, if this was purely Obama policy, prior to 2008, children were jailed with their parents. This is what you are suggesting is it not?

No, they were separated under Obama as well. We don't allow parents to take their children to jail with them. If you want that, write your Congressman.

[MisterVeritis]

Then the allegation that this is a policy instigated by Obama is disingenuous. Children of illegals who are arrested and charged have never been jailed and there has never been a policy of separating children, other than not sending them to jail. So when Trump tweeted:

"Put pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children from there (sic) parents once they cross the Border into the U.S.," and "I know what you're going through right now with families is very tough, but those are the bad laws that the Democrats gave us. We have to break up families."

It was not the truth. Children in detention centers are not now, nor ever were separated from their parents when the parents were not arrested, charged and jailed. The fact that Trump made an executive order mandating those found removable by final order jailed and the children as a result separated has nothing to do with Obama policies, but the pictures of crying children are making Trump look heartless, so he's trying to deflect the blame to nonexistent Obama laws.
The children are not in jail. The policy is inherited. Why do you try to deceive us?

The left is very good at propaganda. I have little doubt the left will win the propaganda fight.

But the left looks with a blind eye toward failed Democrat policies. Those same policies are highlighted once a Republican is in the White House.

[MisterVeritis]

Correct but the media loves to lie. They want to sway public opinion or have rights defending a lie they make up. There was no caged child and the next lie they will be yelling about they will claim a woman was deported without her 8 year old child. It's coming watch. They have taken pictures of young American kids claiming these are making the journey to America. Even the washed up body of a young boy in Canada was a lie. They wanted people to be outraged over a lie. While they will hide real facts of human trafficking, people who they claim are kids with full tattoos knowing these are hard gang members not pre teens but in their 20's and 30's.
You speak of Barack Hussein O's illegal child army. Thanks, Obama.

[The Xl]

Good for Rand. One of the few people worth a shit in government.

[Ethereal]

When americans break the law they are detained and separated from their children
This thread is not about immigration policy.

[Ethereal]

Will a MOD please get this thread back on topic?

This is NOT about immigration policy, it's about the NDAA.

[DGUtley]

C'mon guys -- let's get this thing back on track. indefinite detention without trial is so contrary to our history and Constitution. This is an important subject.

[MisterVeritis]

C'mon guys -- let's get this thing back on track. indefinite detention without trial is so contrary to our history and Constitution. This is an important subject.
If it was interesting it would have taken off on its own.

We keep prisoners of war for the duration of the war.

[DGUtley]

If it was interesting it would have taken off on its own. We keep prisoners of war for the duration of the war.

Maybe it would have if it hadn't been hijacked by the immigrationists.

[Ethereal]

If it was interesting it would have taken off on its own.

We keep prisoners of war for the duration of the war.

So you are fine with the US government indefinitely detaining persons on US soil, without access to a lawyer and without a trial, based on nothing more than the mere allegations of government officials?

[MisterVeritis]

Maybe it would have if it hadn't been hijacked by the immigrationists.
I tend to doubt it. We shall see.

[MisterVeritis]

So you are fine with the US government indefinitely detaining persons on US soil, without access to a lawyer and without a trial, based on nothing more than the mere allegations of government officials?
I am fine with building prisoner of war detention facilities and keeping prisoners away from US populations while the war continues. We do not need to bring prisoners inside the US to keep them. Nor should we. We should also gear up military tribunals to try war criminals and then punish them appropriately.

[ripmeister]

The truth is you are easily misled. It was the same policy under Barack Hussein O.

Actually you are wrong. Its the same law. The "Zero Tolerance" policy in terms of implementation has changed under Trump/Sessions. Previous administrations both left and right did nothing as draconian as Trumps position on this.

[ripmeister]

The children are not in jail. The policy is inherited. Why do you try to deceive us?

The left is very good at propaganda. I have little doubt the left will win the propaganda fight.

But the left looks with a blind eye toward failed Democrat policies. Those same policies are highlighted once a Republican is in the White House.
Sorry V, you don't have a leg to stand on with this one. This is all about policy implementation no matter how much you want to whitewash it.

[MisterVeritis]

Actually you are wrong. Its the same law. The "Zero Tolerance" policy in terms of implementation has changed under Trump/Sessions. Previous administrations both left and right did nothing as draconian as Trump's position on this.
We seem to both agree that the law/rule/policy is identical. The difference is the Trump administration is following the law - imagine that. The feckless Obama Regime did not.

If you don't like the law passed several years (decades?) ago change it.

[MisterVeritis]

Sorry V, you don't have a leg to stand on with this one. This is all about policy implementation no matter how much you want to whitewash it.
I am completely right. The law, rule, or policy has been in place for many years. Some say since the late 1990s. Why this week? It is a nice shiny object. The IG Report was released. It is not more complicated than that.

[Mini Me]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s640x640/35382391_2488438144500482_8690234696975515648_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=7ef52a31b1665521ebd5ca5e812f383a&oe=5BB99CF8

[MisterVeritis]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s640x640/35382391_2488438144500482_8690234696975515648_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=7ef52a31b1665521ebd5ca5e812f383a&oe=5BB99CF8
I love this.

[ripmeister]

I am completely right. The law, rule, or policy has been in place for many years. Some say since the late 1990s. Why this week? It is a nice shiny object. The IG Report was released. It is not more complicated than that.
You are equivocating law, and the policy by which that law is implemented. Trumps approach is a new policy over that of his predecessors.

[MisterVeritis]

You are equivocating law, and the policy by which that law is implemented. Trump's approach is a new policy over that of his predecessors.
The policy is exactly the same. President Trump's administration is enforcing the laws the Congress wrote and earlier administrations fleshed out.

The people who broke our laws are to blame. I am delighted to have a President who enforces the laws the Congress passes. It is a refreshing change from the previous regime.

[ripmeister]

The policy is exactly the same. President Trump's administration is enforcing the laws the Congress wrote and earlier administrations fleshed out.

The people who broke our laws are to blame. I am delighted to have a President who enforces the laws the Congress passes. It is a refreshing change from the previous regime.
As you say "It is a refreshing change from the previous regime" so you stipulate that the policy is different. Thank-you. Now if we could get Trump and Sessions and You to exercise some humanity perhaps we could do something about the draconian nature of this policy. Since when do we do indefinite detentions and separate families based on a misdemeanor? Where is the humanity, because that is what this is about.