PDA

View Full Version : Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith



pjohns
12-30-2012, 12:07 AM
From Cybercast News Service:


In a legal argument formally presented in federal court in the case of Hobby Lobby v. Kathleen Sebelius, the Obama administration is claiming that the First Amendment—which expressly denies the government the authority to prohibit the “free exercise” of religion—nonetheless allows it to force Christians to directly violate their religious beliefs even on a matter that involves the life and death of innocent human beings. …

The Obama administration is making a two-fold argument for why it can force Christians to act against their faith in complying with the regulation it has issued under the Obamacare law that requires virtually all health care plans to cover, without co-pay, sterilizations, contraceptives, and abortion-inducing drugs.

The first argument the administration makes against the owners of Hobby Lobby is that Americans lose their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion when they form a corporation and engage in commerce. A person’s Christianity, the administration argues, cannot be carried out through activities he engages in through an incorporated business. …The second argument the administration makes to justify forcing Christians to act against their faith is more sweeping. Here the administration argues it can force a person to act against his religion so long as the coercion is done under the authority of a law that is neutral and generally applicable—in other words, as long as the law was not written specifically to persecute Christians as Christians, the government can use that law to persecute Christians. …

And the link: Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith | CNS News (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-administration-we-can-and-will-force-christians-act-against-their-faith)

GrassrootsConservative
12-30-2012, 12:08 AM
Christians have been acting against their faith for a very long time.

roadmaster
12-30-2012, 12:14 AM
Have they, and what Christians are you speaking of? Anyone can sit in a Church building and call themselves anything they want.

GrassrootsConservative
12-30-2012, 12:16 AM
Have they, and what Christians are you speaking of? Anyone can sit in a Church building and call themselves anything they want.

What about that apostle who betrayed Christ or whatever. Christ was alive and he was still acting against his faith.

It's actually really common knowledge that the least Christian-acting of all people is actual Christians.

roadmaster
12-30-2012, 12:20 AM
What about that apostle who betrayed Christ or whatever. Christ was alive and he was still acting against his faith.

It's actually really common knowledge that the least Christian-acting of all people is actual Christians.
Common knowledge?? Really? No they are not perfect but he still believed. Why don't you focus on atheist since you are one? Tell me how perfect you are.

GrassrootsConservative
12-30-2012, 12:23 AM
Common knowledge?? Really? No they are not perfect but he still believed. Why don't you focus on atheist since you are one? Tell me how perfect you are.

Do you admit that he was acting against his faith?
That's kind of the topic here.

roadmaster
12-30-2012, 01:15 AM
Do you admit that he was acting against his faith?
That's kind of the topic here.

No he was scared. I think atheist should open up their own companies, don't cry when you get no help. Obama will not win nor any of you in the long run.

Captain Obvious
12-30-2012, 01:20 AM
What if these groups decide that paying taxes are against their religious beliefs? Do we exempt them from taxes also?

Hobby Lobby, the Catholic Church - these guys need to start playing by the rules like the rest of us. Nobody is forcing anyone to take birth control, the mandate is for birth control to be a part of their healthcare benefits.

It is not the Catholic Church's business nor Hobby Lobby's business to jam their religious bullshit down their employees throats. If these groups oppose birth control, they can individually choose not to use it, but for them to force their employees to have benefits outside of what is now a social norm is oppressive.

Fuck them.

roadmaster
12-30-2012, 01:26 AM
What if these groups decide that paying taxes are against their religious beliefs? Do we exempt them from taxes also?

Hobby Lobby, the Catholic Church - these guys need to start playing by the rules like the rest of us. Nobody is forcing anyone to take birth control, the mandate is for birth control to be a part of their healthcare benefits.

It is not the Catholic Church's business nor Hobby Lobby's business to jam their religious bullshit down their employees throats. If these groups oppose birth control, they can individually choose not to use it, but for them to force their employees to have benefits outside of what is now a social norm is oppressive.

Fuck them.

Maybe they will say the same and put 1,300 workers on unemployment.

GrassrootsConservative
12-30-2012, 02:16 AM
No he was scared.

Your God couldn't protect him? Why?

zelmo1234
12-30-2012, 05:05 AM
What if these groups decide that paying taxes are against their religious beliefs? Do we exempt them from taxes also?

Hobby Lobby, the Catholic Church - these guys need to start playing by the rules like the rest of us. Nobody is forcing anyone to take birth control, the mandate is for birth control to be a part of their healthcare benefits.

It is not the Catholic Church's business nor Hobby Lobby's business to jam their religious bullshit down their employees throats. If these groups oppose birth control, they can individually choose not to use it, but for them to force their employees to have benefits outside of what is now a social norm is oppressive.

Fuck them.

Actually they do have an option, and I really like it. The Catholic Chuch and Charities here in my area, found a little way around it

They decided not to provicde heatlhcare to there 3800 employee's and pay the fine rather than going against their faith.

So I guess that Obama won here in my neck of the woods But the 3800 employees would have rather had there healthcare paid for, and paid the $18 a month for birthcontrol out of their own pocket.

So I guess that by the government and Athiest trying to cram their beliefs down the throats of the Church, they kind of said F YOU did they not.

If every religious organization does the same thing, it would be Great! And if Obama wants to continue his little war on the first amedment, then they should close their businesses down. and let him deal with the massive unemployment, and on the Medical side let his voters that are poor find a secular hospital system that will take care of them like Catholic Charities.

See how Obama will explain to the nation an unemployment rate of 17% Now that would be funny!

zelmo1234
12-30-2012, 05:09 AM
Your God couldn't protect him? Why?

Really? this is your argument? could it be because he would not have paid the price for your sins, if he did?

So as a conservative you are not concerned with the first amendment, as long as the freedoms that it takes away are from Christians? Is that about right!

Peter1469
12-30-2012, 06:38 AM
Actually they do have an option, and I really like it. The Catholic Chuch and Charities here in my area, found a little way around it

They decided not to provicde heatlhcare to there 3800 employee's and pay the fine rather than going against their faith.

So I guess that Obama won here in my neck of the woods But the 3800 employees would have rather had there healthcare paid for, and paid the $18 a month for birthcontrol out of their own pocket.

So I guess that by the government and Athiest trying to cram their beliefs down the throats of the Church, they kind of said F YOU did they not.

If every religious organization does the same thing, it would be Great! And if Obama wants to continue his little war on the first amedment, then they should close their businesses down. and let him deal with the massive unemployment, and on the Medical side let his voters that are poor find a secular hospital system that will take care of them like Catholic Charities.

See how Obama will explain to the nation an unemployment rate of 17% Now that would be funny!

Correct. This farce is really just a power grab by the State.

patrickt
12-30-2012, 06:40 AM
If free birth control, including abortions, is a government priority let them do it. They have no right to require private citizens or companies to provide such birth control. Well, no more right than they have to totally control everyone's life any way they want. Consider workers being required to pay money each month to a Prayer Service that was operating where they worked. I suppose liberals think that would apparently be fine with the socialists. Of course, it wouldn't. Separation of church and state is all one way. Obama has declared there is no separation when the state wishes to attack the church.

GrassrootsConservative
12-30-2012, 10:09 AM
Really? this is your argument? could it be because he would not have paid the price for your sins, if he did?

So as a conservative you are not concerned with the first amendment, as long as the freedoms that it takes away are from Christians? Is that about right!

I never said that, just said that it's a petty thing compared to the way most Christians act already. Forcing a group of people to do something they've been doing for thousands of years isn't that big of a deal. Is Obama going to force me to breathe now? Oh no, my rights are being taken away from me! A cross around your neck as a status symbol is not the same as a religion.

roadmaster
12-30-2012, 12:19 PM
Your God couldn't protect him? Why?

That's stupid to say. You are either with Him or against Him, no in-between. As for him my Master was always there for him.

Captain Obvious
12-30-2012, 04:08 PM
Actually they do have an option, and I really like it. The Catholic Chuch and Charities here in my area, found a little way around it

They decided not to provicde heatlhcare to there 3800 employee's and pay the fine rather than going against their faith.

So I guess that Obama won here in my neck of the woods But the 3800 employees would have rather had there healthcare paid for, and paid the $18 a month for birthcontrol out of their own pocket.

So I guess that by the government and Athiest trying to cram their beliefs down the throats of the Church, they kind of said F YOU did they not.

If every religious organization does the same thing, it would be Great! And if Obama wants to continue his little war on the first amedment, then they should close their businesses down. and let him deal with the massive unemployment, and on the Medical side let his voters that are poor find a secular hospital system that will take care of them like Catholic Charities.

See how Obama will explain to the nation an unemployment rate of 17% Now that would be funny!

Gotta link?

Peter1469
12-30-2012, 09:04 PM
No he was scared. I think atheist should open up their own companies, don't cry when you get no help. Obama will not win nor any of you in the long run.

Perhaps Judas just did what Jesus asked of him, to fulfill prophecy.

pjohns
12-30-2012, 11:37 PM
Christians have been acting against their faith for a very long time.

They have certainly not been forced to do so, by a punitive and overweening federal government...

pjohns
12-30-2012, 11:49 PM
What if these groups decide that paying taxes are against their religious beliefs? Do we exempt them from taxes also?

The courts have generally recognized (and deferred to) the longstanding beliefs of established religions, unless those beliefs are so utterly repugnant to most Americans (such as, say, the practice of human sacrifice) that they simply cannot be accommodated.

And I am aware of no longstanding religious belief, from an established religion (as opposed to one that is hastily made up), that declares that it is sinful to pay taxes to the government.


It is not the Catholic Church's business nor Hobby Lobby's business to jam their religious bullshit down their employees throats. If these groups oppose birth control, they can individually choose not to use it, but for them to force their employees to have benefits outside of what is now a social norm is oppressive.

Let us not be disingenuous.

As you are surely aware, it is not the intent of anyone in a position of authority at Hobby Lobby to "jam" anything down "their employees['] throats."

Rather, these people would prefer not to participate--even indirectly--in an activity that they consider morally repellent.

And to be compelled to offer healthcare insurance that covers abortifacients, or other products that they consider sinful, is simply anti-religious...

patrickt
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
What if these groups decide that paying taxes are against their religious beliefs? Do we exempt them from taxes also?

Hobby Lobby, the Catholic Church - these guys need to start playing by the rules like the rest of us. Nobody is forcing anyone to take birth control, the mandate is for birth control to be a part of their healthcare benefits.

It is not the Catholic Church's business nor Hobby Lobby's business to jam their religious bullshit down their employees throats. If these groups oppose birth control, they can individually choose not to use it, but for them to force their employees to have benefits outside of what is now a social norm is oppressive.

Fuck them.
No, fuck you. No one is trying to force anything down anyone's throat except the socialist government and their drones and for you to say the religious people by refusing to pay for your birth control are forcing you to do something is not only dishonest it's incredibly stupid. No Catholic and no business is trying to stop employees from using birth control or getting abortions. If an employee wants to go to a party and have sex with twenty partners that's there business. If they need four abortions a year that's their business. If they want their employer to pay for it, then it's the employers business. The employers just say they don't want to pay for it but the all-controlling liberals demand that they pay for birth control and abortion. Perhaps businesses should be required by the all-powerful government to buy their employees alcohol and drugs if they want them? Perhaps a business run by Jews or Muslims should be required to serve pork in the employee cafeteria? I'm an atheist but I am tired of the liberals thinking they have a right to control my personal life. But, I'll admit, I gave up and left. Not enough Americans care. They seem to enjoy being told what to do. It's the government that is oppressive. Let me know when a private company sends a SWAT team to raid a dairy farm.

GrumpyDog
01-01-2013, 10:35 AM
As I understood it:

Religious employers are not required to have to cover female employee reproductive medical needs. The government will provide that supplementary, if the Religious employer finds it objectionable.

Is this not the case?

hanger4
01-01-2013, 10:50 AM
As I understood it:

Religious employers are not required to have to cover female employee reproductive medical needs. The government will provide that supplementary, if the Religious employer finds it objectionable.

Is this not the case?

The OP's link says it is the case.

Chris
01-01-2013, 11:43 AM
Technically, grumpy is right. ;-)


From 5 days ago...


Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor on Wednesday turned down a request that she block part of Obamacare that would require companies' health plans to provide for coverage of certain contraceptives, such as the morning-after pill.
Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc., and Mardel, Inc. and five family members involved in ownership and control of the corporations had protested the requirement, which is to kick in January 1.

They said they would be required "to provide insurance coverage for certain drugs and devices that the applicants believe can cause abortions," which would be against their religious beliefs, Sotomayor wrote in her opinion.

The applicants said they would face irreparable harm if forced to choose between paying fines and complying with the requirement....

@ Justice won't block Obamacare's required emergency contraception coverage (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/27/justice-wont-block-obamacares-required-emergency-contraception-coverage/)


Yesterday...


A daily fine of $1.3 million will begin Wednesday for the owners of national craft store chain Hobby Lobby, who have said they would rather defy a federal mandate to provide employees health insurance coverage certain contraceptive medications than violate their religious beliefs.

"The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees. To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs,” said Kyle Duncan, general counsel at The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, which is representing Hobby Lobby in its legal battle with the government over the mandate.

The statement came after U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor rejected Hobby Lobby's appeal to block enforcement of a Affordable Care Act provision that mandates companies offer insurance coverage for contraceptive drugs....

@ Hobby Lobby to defy Obamacare contraception mandate, face millions in fines (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865569716/Hobby-Lobby-to-defy-Obamacare-contraception-mandate-face-millions-in-fines.html)

patrickt
01-01-2013, 11:47 AM
As I understood it:

Religious employers are not required to have to cover female employee reproductive medical needs. The government will provide that supplementary, if the Religious employer finds it objectionable.

Is this not the case?

"Because federal judges—including Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor—have refused to grant an injunction protecting the owners of Hobby Lobby from being forced to act against their Christian faith, those owners will be subject to federal fines of up to $1.3 million per day starting Tuesday for refusing to include abortion-inducing drugs in their employee health plan."
From the link in the OP.

The current administration is opposed to some religions and will do whatever they can to attack them.

GrumpyDog
01-01-2013, 12:17 PM
Then the Universal Healthcare Plan can be further modified, to not require religious employers private insurance agency to provide abortion inducing drugs to the female employee. The female, may then apply for government supplemental, paid for by general funds allocated for welfare.

Problem solved.

Chris
01-01-2013, 12:23 PM
Bigger problem actually, why should I, a taxpayer, pay for something I'm against?

patrickt
01-01-2013, 12:44 PM
No, Grumpy. You might have a solution but the problem should never have come up. The administration doesn't want to "solve" the problem. Their problem is how to effectively attack certain religions and your "solution" doesn't meet their needs. And, what to you mean, modify Obamacare. Apostate!

GrassrootsConservative
01-01-2013, 12:56 PM
Why do Christians pick this exact moment to start acting with accordance to their faith?

They rarely have before. It just seems strange to me that in a country of Religious freedom so many Christians act so un-Christlike, is there a reason that the one time Christians want their faith respected is after a couple hundred years of abandoning it?

Chris
01-01-2013, 01:02 PM
The requirement kicks in today.

GrumpyDog
01-01-2013, 01:04 PM
Bigger problem actually, why should I, a taxpayer, pay for something I'm against?

ok, you opt out of paying for welfare, and I will opt out of paying for Military weapons of mass destruction, including maintaining nuclear weapons.

You opt out of paying for SS and medicare, while I opt out of paying property tax, since it is unfair that religious estates are tax exempt.

You build the part of the road that connects your neighborhood, and I, not having enough money, will simply put up a sign saying "road here, but travel at your own risk" where that road passes by my neighborhood.

Your neighborhood, having enough private funding to hire and maintain private security guards, with paved roads, solar panel electricity, private airport, and abundant supply of food flown in from all parts of world, .. why should you have to pay any taxes?

Those people, who have not the resources to take care of their elderly, their disabled, nor any way to improve their living condition beyond primative dwelling, why should they expect anything better?

After all, what we all desire, is little,or no government, with no taxation, and every man for himself, and winner takes all, loser just has to go without, and die as soon as possible, so as not to be a burden upon the more able and productive earners.

Chris
01-01-2013, 01:28 PM
ok, you opt out of paying for welfare, and I will opt out of paying for Military weapons of mass destruction, including maintaining nuclear weapons.

You opt out of paying for SS and medicare, while I opt out of paying property tax, since it is unfair that religious estates are tax exempt.

You build the part of the road that connects your neighborhood, and I, not having enough money, will simply put up a sign saying "road here, but travel at your own risk" where that road passes by my neighborhood.

Your neighborhood, having enough private funding to hire and maintain private security guards, with paved roads, solar panel electricity, private airport, and abundant supply of food flown in from all parts of world, .. why should you have to pay any taxes?

Those people, who have not the resources to take care of their elderly, their disabled, nor any way to improve their living condition beyond primative dwelling, why should they expect anything better?

After all, what we all desire, is little,or no government, with no taxation, and every man for himself, and winner takes all, loser just has to go without, and die as soon as possible, so as not to be a burden upon the more able and productive earners.


ok, you opt out of paying for welfare, and I will opt out of paying for Military weapons of mass destruction, including maintaining nuclear weapons.

Sounds like a good deal to me. The Dept of Offense (hattip Mainecoons) is just another means of welfare, corporate welfare. See, for instance, Military Keynesians (http://reason.com/archives/2012/11/20/military-keynesians): "When it comes to defense, Republicans think government spending boosts the economy".

Property tax, deal.

Private security, post, roads etc. Deal.


Those people should be taken care of. But that's an individual obligation, not a governmental one. See No Mr. Cameron, the UK has no moral obligations at all (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9874-No-Mr-Cameron-the-UK-has-no-moral-obligations-at-all): What's true for foreign aid is true for welfare.

That was a nice touch tho, the emotional appeal.



After all, what we all desire, is little,or no government, with no taxation, and every man for himself, and winner takes all, loser just has to go without, and die as soon as possible, so as not to be a burden upon the more able and productive earners.

I assume you include yourself in your royal we, but don't include little old me.



My general point is the Hobby Lobby suit against Obamacare is not just a Christian concern but secular as well. Government is far too intrusive in our society today.

patrickt
01-01-2013, 01:57 PM
GrumpyDog: "After all, what we all desire, is little,or no government, with no taxation, and every man for himself, and winner takes all, loser just has to go without, and die as soon as possible, so as not to be a burden upon the more able and productive earners."

Nonsense. What the liberals desire, which would be your "we" , is massive government and ever increasing taxation on everyone except "us", the liberals. Productive people will be taxed into poverty so votes can be bought and nonproductive people can rule. As for dying as soon as possible, we already have Obamacare so the government can decide who needs to be killed off.

zelmo1234
01-01-2013, 06:03 PM
Then the Universal Healthcare Plan can be further modified, to not require religious employers private insurance agency to provide abortion inducing drugs to the female employee. The female, may then apply for government supplemental, paid for by general funds allocated for welfare.

Problem solved.

You can't use taxpayer money to pay for Abortions, this is why Texas just denied funding to Planed parenthood! in ther state.

pjohns
01-04-2013, 12:11 AM
Why do Christians pick this exact moment to start acting with accordance to their faith?

They rarely have before. It just seems strange to me that in a country of Religious freedom so many Christians act so un-Christlike, is there a reason that the one time Christians want their faith respected is after a couple hundred years of abandoning it?

(1) Some Christians may, indeed, act "un-Christlike." But to declare that all (or even most) do is to paint with a very broad brush.

(2) It would be proper, I believe, to distinguish between matters of attitude and matters of Christian doctrine. They should not be lumped together as though the two were (somehow) inseparable.

zelmo1234
01-04-2013, 01:14 AM
Do you admit that he was acting against his faith?
That's kind of the topic here.

I don't know lets think about this, in the old testiment it was told that the saviour would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver

And we know that Jesus had to die to pay for our sins, even Judas at the last supper was told by Jesus that he would be the one to betry him?

So was he acting un christian like? or was he just doing his part so Jesus would die on the cross to pay for the sins of the world

Just courious, what have you done for your fellow man lately??

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

not so much on those athiests?

You really should start to look after your fellow man more, or are you affraid that people will think you are Christian, if you do?

Peter1469
01-04-2013, 01:07 PM
Yes, there is a minority view that Judas was only doing what Jesus asked him to do- to rat him out for 30 pieces of silver.

garyo
01-04-2013, 01:13 PM
I'm glad to see you favor smaller Gov.

Carygrant
01-04-2013, 06:23 PM
WTF has Jesus and Christianity got to do with it ?
A minority sect with rather strange ideas .
isn't it about time that Christians were treated as the minority voice that they are ?
It is not as though they have good practical advice to offer .
Like the US military , they don't win wars .
The little shits pretend they are not interested whether they win or lose because Jesus will save them .
Hard to be more stupid .

Chris
01-04-2013, 06:28 PM
WTF has Jesus and Christianity got to do with it ?
A minority sect with rather strange ideas .
isn't it about time that Christians were treated as the minority voice that they are ?
It is not as though they have good practical advice to offer .
Like the US military , they don't win wars .
The little shits pretend they are not interested whether they win or lose because Jesus will save them .
Hard to be more stupid .


WTF has Jesus and Christianity got to do with it ?
A minority sect with rather strange ideas .
isn't it about time that Christians were treated as the minority voice that they are ?

http://i.snag.gy/TR1xg.jpg

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

What do you do, cary, make it up as you go along?

Why do you hate Christians?

zelmo1234
01-04-2013, 07:15 PM
WTF has Jesus and Christianity got to do with it ?
A minority sect with rather strange ideas .
isn't it about time that Christians were treated as the minority voice that they are ?
It is not as though they have good practical advice to offer .
Like the US military , they don't win wars .
The little shits pretend they are not interested whether they win or lose because Jesus will save them .
Hard to be more stupid .

You know I love the fact that liberals are so tolerant and understanding of people that do not think like them

It is no wonder that they preach tolerance to the rest of us. this is just one fine example of the tolerance of a Liberal.

And I really hate to do this to you, being you have already fourn out that your gun policy has failed, and the your own leader has admitted that multiculturalism has failed, and now it looks like that tiny percentage of Christians in your nation is 71.8%

http://www.uturnuk.org/values-and-faith/christianity-in-britain-today

So is it that you do not get out much? or do you drink alot??? You seem to be a bit confused about your own country, and are so worried about ours?