OK. Some nitty-gritty. What can the US or IK teach New Zealand?

[Awryly]

Be honest.

We are avid learners here. So says our international education ranking.

So tell us. What can we learn from either of you?

Title edit: says IK, means UK, but probably better left as a mistake.

[Mister D]

Yawn

[Chris]

How about we teach you not to lie and troll?

[Awryly]

Yawn


As I thought. Nothing.

[Awryly]

How about we teach you not to lie and troll?


How about you stop wheezing and answer the question?

Besides, you are the experts at lieing. Your entire foreign policy is based on it.

[Mister D]

As I thought. Nothing.

I've taught you much. You just don't have any shame.

[Chris]

How about you stop wheezing and answer the question?

Why would I want to discuss anything with someone as disingenuous as you? You troll, you lie, you plagiarize.

[Awryly]

I've taught you much. You just don't have any shame.


You taught me you are centuries out of date.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=4&dateline=1355879709

[Awryly]

Why would I want to discuss anything with someone as disingenuous as you? You troll, you lie, you plagiarize.


Setting aside my sins, what can the US teach us?

[Chris]

Setting aside my sins, what can the US teach us?

Why, you're doing the same here. You make it up now that I'm lying: "Besides, you are the experts at lieing. [sic]"

Where did I lie, awryly? I can point to your lies. Now being the troll you are your try to echo the accusation. But you've got nothing to base it on. You just make it up. That's another lie.

So why would I want to discuss anything with a liar?

You are your sins.

[Mister D]

You taught me you are centuries out of date.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/image.php?u=4&dateline=1355879709

Yes, there was a time when lying and plagiarism were frowned upon. I plead guilty.

[Chris]

Awryly laughs about lying and jokes about plagiarizing. And then he wants to talk, lol.

[Mister D]

Awryly laughs about lying and jokes about plagiarizing. And then he wants to talk, lol.

I laugh at Carygrant but Awryly really seems like a dirt bag.

[Awryly]

I laugh at Carygrant but Awryly really seems like a dirt bag.


Having made that wee expression of disapproval, are you going to answer the OP or just frag on about nothing in particular?

[Chris]

Why would anyone want to talk to someone who trolls, lies and plagiarizes? Answer that question, awryly. To get people to talk to you you need to show them some respect, you don't do that by trolling, lying and plagiarizing. Why do you think anyone who knew you would want to?

[Awryly]

Why would anyone want to talk to someone who trolls, lies and plagiarizes? Answer that question, awryly. To get people to talk to you you need to show them some respect, you don't do that by trolling, lying and plagiarizing. Why do you think anyone who knew you would want to?

So. So far, on a serious topic, I have attracted nothing but a number of American trolls.

Can anyone do better?

[Mister D]

Having made that wee expression of disapproval, are you going to answer the OP or just frag on about nothing in particular?

Having bested you repeatedly at your own game you've come to bore me. I remember one discussion where you were able to offer real insights and were a good discussion partner. Sadly, it appears that your utterly superficial anti-Americanism dictates your behavior.

[Awryly]

Having bested you repeatedly at your own game you've come to bore me. I remember one discussion where you were able to offer real insights and were a good discussion partner. Sadly, it appears that your utterly superficial anti-Americanism dictates your behavior.

What's "superficial anti-Americanism"?

How can I become an existential anti-American?

Any assistance appreciated.

[Chris]

So. So far, on a serious topic, I have attracted nothing but a number of American trolls.

Can anyone do better?

And once again you lie, awryly. You pull out the old troll's echo and repeat an accusation back--but it's made up, it's just another lie.

The question is can you do any better?

[Mister D]

What's "superficial anti-Americanism"?

How can I become an existential anti-American?

Any assistance appreciated.

A great example of your superficial anti-Americanism is when you tried to defend the Russian ban on American adoptions.

You're just not that bright. Sorry, noddy. :wink:

[Awryly]

A great example of your superficial anti-Americanism is when you tried to defend the Russian ban on American adoptions.

You're just not that bright. Sorry, noddy. :wink:

How so "superficial"?

[Adelaide]

Every nation and every society can learn at least something from one another. It's kind of lame to suggest otherwise.

[Awryly]

So, what can you teach us?

[Chris]

So, what can you teach us?

What do you want to learn? I mean, genuinely, honestly interested in learning from others?

[Adelaide]

So, what can you teach us?

You? Manners. Rational thinking. Objectivity.

New Zealand in general: How to make great poutine.

[Awryly]

You? Manners. Rational thinking. Objectivity.

New Zealand in general: How to make great poutine.

You mean thinking like an American. Or Canadian. Or whatever.

OK. Tell us what a poutine is.

[Awryly]

What do you want to learn? I mean, genuinely, honestly interested in learning from others?


What did the OP say?

[Adelaide]

You mean thinking like an American. Or Canadian. Or whatever.

OK. Tell us what a poutine is.

Okay, there is definitely something wrong with you (joking) - how do you not know what poutine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine) is?? What about beaver tails? Nanaimo bars? Butter tarts?

[Awryly]

Okay, there is definitely something wrong with you (joking) - how do you not know what poutine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poutine) is?? What about beaver tails? Nanaimo bars? Butter tarts?


OK. So here we have a response that goes to the heart of matter. Our cuisine.

And availability of edible wildlife.

No, I don't have a clue what a poutine is. Tell me.

(I have to get something out of this thread.)

[Adelaide]

OK. So here we have a response that goes to the heart of matter. Our cuisine.

And availability of edible wildlife.

No, I don't have a clue what a poutine is. Tell me.

(I have to get something out of this thread.)

French fries smothered in gravy and topped with cheese curds. Quebec invention, and divine. Horrible for your health, but divine. I can't eat it because I don't eat dairy or most meats, but I used to love it.

[Awryly]

French fries smothered in gravy and topped with cheese curds. Quebec invention, and divine. Horrible for your health, but divine. I can't eat it because I don't eat dairy or most meats, but I used to love it.

How could the French invent something so revolting?

Do you take it with pinot noir or sauvignon blanc?

[Adelaide]

How could the French invent something so revolting?

Do you take it with pinot noir or sauvignon blanc?

Beer - I'm Canadian.

[Awryly]

Beer - I'm Canadian.

I'll mention the poutine to my son, who runs an haute cuisine restaurant.

[Awryly]

I'll mention the poutine to my son, who runs an haute cuisine restaurant.


Any advances on poutine from the North American continent that might improve out Antipodean lives?

[Adelaide]

I'll mention the poutine to my son, who runs an haute cuisine restaurant.

You can really jazz it up - truffles, and stuff. Major restaurant chains just do the cheap version but there are some classy (and even more delicious) ways to make poutine.

[Awryly]

You can really jazz it up - truffles, and stuff. Major restaurant chains just do the cheap version but there are some classy (and even more delicious) ways to make poutine.


Right. Potato fries, gravy 'n stuff.

Should go down well with our peasants.

[Awryly]

OK. Poutine from a Quebecois.

Nothing from Americans.

Any Mexicans here? Perhaps they could tell us how to outstrip American car manufacture?

[Carygrant]

TO RILEY FROM LAUGHING BOY .
PF's answer to the Moaning Lisa


Why would I want to discuss anything with someone as disingenuous as you? You troll, you lie, you plagiarize.


Our leading Troll has come out with a new anthem .
Do you still get that ringing in the ears? Or are they now voices?
I would love to meet you . I bet you are the most boring person imaginable with your book in every room and forever taking laxatives .

[Awryly]

TO RILEY FROM LAUGHING BOY .
PF's answer to the Moaning Lisa




Our leading Troll has come out with a new anthem .
Do you still get that ringing in the ears? Or are they now voices?
I would love to meet you . I bet you are the most boring person imaginable with your book in every room and forever taking laxatives .

The laxatives seem to be keeping him regular. :boozing::boozing::boozing:

[zelmo1234]

AW I don't think you are such a bad person just mis informed about not only the other countries around the world, but your own country. but what New Zealand can learn can be sumed up in the words of a few Great leaders from Each Country.

As I am sure that I do not have to tel you, that both nations are in a debt crisis, that was induced by the desire to show compassion, the results are devistating, not only to they cause the deficite spending, but they are among the most cruel things that you can do to a person by stealing their selfworth, and scaring them into a dependency on governemnt programs that doom them to poverty, which also causes people to turn to a life or crime and drug violence, causing those problems of gun violence, rape, drug abuse, and the list goes on.

It is a hard thing to do, but as your country becomes more and more successful, you need to avoid socialism, and keep the social programs to a very bare minimum, and make sure that people understand that they are responsible for there own success, or failure.

so here are some quotes that should be the words of wisdom that a emerging country could learn from.

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1981/12081a.htm

A President that came into a situation that was much like the one we are in now, and while he had to rebuild a devistated military, and lost many spending battles with Tip Oneil and the deomcrats to actually cut spending, he reduced income taxes and jump started the longest period of growth in US history.

Famous Line

Goverment is not the solution to our problems, Government is the Problem!

And a short line from the Great Mrs Thatcher

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/198468.Margaret_Thatcher

And while Mr Grant can expand on these I am sure, look at here statments on hardwork, Socialism, and feelings vs actions.

Another from a Democrat President that would not be welcome in his party today.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2007/apr/22/greatspeeches

You will see the famous line Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

But more you will see that he to stressed personel responsibility, and the Governmetn should promote the welfare of the people, not provide it.

If you imbrace only one thing, it would be this. People must take responsibility for their own success, If them become dependant on the government, your country will follow the same path to doom that Ameicans and the Brits are facing now. Socialism sounds compasionate but is cruel.

If you want to have a Serious Conversation it would be this

[Awryly]

Well, it may be something you know.


AW I don't think you are such a bad person just mis informed about not only the other countries around the world, but your own country. but what New Zealand can learn can be sumed up in the words of a few Great leaders from Each Country.

As I am sure that I do not have to tel you, that both nations are in a debt crisis, that was induced by the desire to show compassion, the results are devistating, not only to they cause the deficite spending, but they are among the most cruel things that you can do to a person by stealing their selfworth, and scaring them into a dependency on governemnt programs that doom them to poverty, which also causes people to turn to a life or crime and drug violence, causing those problems of gun violence, rape, drug abuse, and the list goes on.

But we don't know that here.

What we do know is that, despite our misguided policy of helping people in need, we are not - unlike the US - overwhelmed with either debt or rampant crime and violence.

You have been at those Chinese crackers again, haven't you?

As I have said often enough before, without any apparent impact, NZ has a public debt level of about 30% of GDP. Yours is over 100%. Your violent crime rate is also massively greater than ours.

So the premises on which you start to regale me with the words of your favourite cowboy are significantly wrong.

But I am sure you have heartened yourself.:kiss:

[zelmo1234]

Well, it may be something you know.



But we don't know that here.

What we do know is that, despite our misguided policy of helping people in need, we are not - unlike the US - overwhelmed with either debt or rampant crime and violence.

You have been at those Chinese crackers again, haven't you?

As I have said often enough before, without any apparent impact, NZ has a public debt level of about 30% of GDP. Yours is over 100%. Your violent crime rate is also massively greater than ours.

So the premises on which you start to regale me with the words of your favourite cowboy are significantly wrong.

But I am sure you have heartened yourself.:kiss:

So you did not want to ahve a seroius conversation?

The Funny part is you long for the policies that cause the results that you do not wish to attain.

In Benifits, Food Stamps and Cash payouts, our welfare recipients make almost as much as the average Kiwi

So the poor in our country would not be considered poor in your, Yet our crime rate is massivly higher that yours

http://www.courts.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2000/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime

You policies of personel responsibility have kept your dept low! and even thought the standard of living is a lower in your country, your people have to work for their livelyhood, and that keeps them busy.

Obama, and GWB for that matter decided that social spending would fix the problems. giving people that have little a payout, or handout, instead of a hand up.

look what it has done to our national debt?

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_national_debt_chart.html

You long for the social reforms of the democrats in your country, here is what it will get you
?
look at the new Deal of FDR and the Raw Deal of Obama huge advancemnts in social welfare spending to make people dependent on the governement. These have the same results. low rate of economic growth and massive increases in government debt. and lower revenues to the fedearl government.

THIS IS WHAT YOU SAY YOU WANT IN NEW ZEALAND? I am telling you taht your government is doing a good job, you do not want the higher taxes on the rich and you do not want to start the handouts. OUr you will experence the same results.

[Awryly]

So you did not want to ahve a seroius conversation?

The Funny part is you long for the policies that cause the results that you do not wish to attain.

In Benifits, Food Stamps and Cash payouts, our welfare recipients make almost as much as the average Kiwi

So the poor in our country would not be considered poor in your, Yet our crime rate is massivly higher that yours

http://www.courts.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2000/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime

You policies of personel responsibility have kept your dept low! and even thought the standard of living is a lower in your country, your people have to work for their livelyhood, and that keeps them busy.

Obama, and GWB for that matter decided that social spending would fix the problems. giving people that have little a payout, or handout, instead of a hand up.

look what it has done to our national debt?

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_national_debt_chart.html

You long for the social reforms of the democrats in your country, here is what it will get you
?
look at the new Deal of FDR and the Raw Deal of Obama huge advancemnts in social welfare spending to make people dependent on the governement. These have the same results. low rate of economic growth and massive increases in government debt. and lower revenues to the fedearl government.

THIS IS WHAT YOU SAY YOU WANT IN NEW ZEALAND? I am telling you taht your government is doing a good job, you do not want the higher taxes on the rich and you do not want to start the handouts. OUr you will experence the same results.


Any "serious conversation" starts out with recognising the facts. As I pointed out, you failed to do that.

You blame the sort of social policies, shown to have worked here without exploding the debt or leading to massive crime, as the reason for your problems. Obviously that is not true or we would be in the same position.

You have to look elsewhere for the reasons.

I have explained them time and again. But you don't want to listen to them.

[zelmo1234]

Any "serious conversation" starts out with recognising the facts. As I pointed out, you failed to do that.

You blame the sort of social policies, shown to have worked here without exploding the debt or leading to massive crime, as the reason for your problems. Obviously that is not true or we would be in the same position.

You have to look elsewhere for the reasons.

I have explained them time and again. But you don't want to listen to them.

But your explanations never come with the facts I have to look them up my self and then find that your government either totally lies to the people in what they print on there website, or you are in a fantasy.

Here are some examples.

You call for people in the USA to ban firearms to end violence and talk about your crime rates? So we are to assume that you in your country have follwed that path?

http://www.new-zealand-nz.net/new_zealand_gun_laws.html

You government however has worked very hard to test people that own firearms and you have a lot of them in the hands of private citizens compaired to your relitively small population. You country is not baning firearms?

You talk about the USA needing to tax the rich and expand social programs leading us to beleive that you are a high taxation and high social spending country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_New_Zealand

Yet your social wefare programs are modeld after ours acording to the world bank and your limitations have caused people to leave your country for Austrailia to try and get benifits there?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852508

So the biggest issues that you have is that we do not tax our rich and even now our rich pay higher taxes than yours, You say that the poor are burdened with taxations 47% of our people pay no income tax and You charge everyone that works taxes.

You are a republican in this country. You are for low taxation, personel responsibility, responsible gun ownership, and targeted responsible government spending.

That is not what the Democrats stand for at all. They are for wealth redistribution, opressive taxations and regulations, and a lieveling of the playing field by causing the middle class and welathy to becmoe poor?

Not one thing that your country is doing is what Obama and the democrats want.

And the funny part is it is working well in your country!

So please show me some facts, I look at what your government publishes and I see what looks like great conservative/ free market policies, not the socialism that you advocate???

So what is it do you want to be like us, because if you inact the polices that obama and the democrats did, you will get the same results.

[Peter1469]

We can teach NZ that government is not the solution. Personal responsibility.


And for those who tried to hi-jack the thread by calling the OP a troll in his own thread- they were just trolling. If you dislike the Orc-slayer stay off the threads that he starts. Or someone may conclude that you are stalking him.

[Awryly]

But your explanations never come with the facts I have to look them up my self and then find that your government either totally lies to the people in what they print on there website, or you are in a fantasy.


Here are some examples.

[QUOTE]You call for people in the USA to ban firearms to end violence and talk about your crime rates? So we are to assume that you in your country have follwed that path?

http://www.new-zealand-nz.net/new_zealand_gun_laws.html

You government however has worked very hard to test people that own firearms and you have a lot of them in the hands of private citizens compaired to your relitively small population. You country is not baning firearms?

We have guns, yes, but only a quarter of what you have. And we ban assault weapons and handguns. Added to which, we don't shoot one another.


You talk about the USA needing to tax the rich and expand social programs leading us to beleive that you are a high taxation and high social spending country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_New_Zealand

Where did I say we are a high tax country?


Yet your social wefare programs are modeld after ours acording to the world bank and your limitations have caused people to leave your country for Austrailia to try and get benifits there?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852508


Our social welfare programmes have nothing to do with people going to Australia. And I suspect we had welfare programs well before you did. We were one of the first to establish the welfare state in 1935.- give or take your New Deal relief programmes. (Oddly, Germany was the first - in the 1840s).

People go to Australia for jobs. And, if they need welfare there, they won't get it. The Aussies don't permit it.


So the biggest issues that you have is that we do not tax our rich and even now our rich pay higher taxes than yours, You say that the poor are burdened with taxations 47% of our people pay no income tax and You charge everyone that works taxes.

You are a republican in this country. You are for low taxation, personel responsibility, responsible gun ownership, and targeted responsible government spending.

That is not what the Democrats stand for at all. They are for wealth redistribution, opressive taxations and regulations, and a lieveling of the playing field by causing the middle class and welathy to becmoe poor?

Not one thing that your country is doing is what Obama and the democrats want.

And the funny part is it is working well in your country!

So please show me some facts, I look at what your government publishes and I see what looks like great conservative/ free market policies, not the socialism that you advocate???

So what is it do you want to be like us, because if you inact the polices that obama and the democrats did, you will get the same results.

Try not to tell me what you think I am. And certainly don't tell me we want to be like you. For one thing, I am entirely in favour of wealth distribution and we do a lot of it here.

[Awryly]

One of the things we do need here is a capital gains tax. Strangely, we don't have one.

What that means is that capital gets diverted into non-productive activities like speculation in property, which leads to, for example, out-of-control home prices. In Auckland, the median home price is now over $600,000.

Meanwhile, industries go short of capital investment. Unless we bring in overseas investors.

[zelmo1234]

AW

I know that you are not a high tax state, that is why you are growing, I actually plan to make a visit and am reasearching how forginers can invest in your country, your tax structure is simple and fair,

Speculation and investment into business is why you do not have a capital gains tax. with the increases that werew passed in the Senate last night, the clasification of rent as capital gains, and the new Obamacare taxes on capital gains, It makes very little sense to invest in the economy here!

I hate to stop growing, because if you are not growing, you are shrinking, So I will be looking for other countries. You have a great tax system.

If you want to start to have problems like we do, then you want to start adding those taxes.

where you are calling for higher taxes, is in this country, not yours.

But you asked what you can learn. Learn that taxations esoecially on capital investment is a sure way to stagnate your economy.

Now on to firearms policy.

You did not ban anything, you added some security requirments?????

Yes you have to get an "E" endorsment. And I looked and that is what I had to get to provide security in your country. But you are allowed ot own all but the weapons that are alread ban in the USA?

The Rambo style weapons as your politicians refered to them must carry a E endorsment and that is not easy to get, but you can get it.

I am not opposed to making people meet safty requirements, in our country, first af all there are a lot of people that ahve no idea how to handle a gun.

So you are making a mis leading statment, Austrailia has a ban on these weapons, and it is starting to show as there crime rate, which dropped in the begining has been rising for years.

So Please if I am missing something post a link so I can find and evaluate the current gun policy. Other than concealed carry which has lowered crime rates in states that have allow this policy. I could live with nearly all of your gun restrictions because they are based on background checks and educations= of safe use. That is great Gun policy. But I would not call it a Ban, by any means of the term.

[GrumpyDog]

So what has been learned so far?

Awryly, and now, Grumpdog too, knows that some Americans think sloppy gravy frenchfries are a delicacy reserved for the connoissuers.

So I will not be accused of plagarizing and lieing I acknowledge "gravy fries" are Awryly idea, and that the use of the word "connoissuer" is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connoisseur

[Mister D]

So what has been learned so far?

Awryly, and now, Grumpdog too, knows that some Americans think sloppy gravy frenchfries are a delicacy reserved for the connoissuers.

So I will not be accused of plagarizing and lieing I acknowledge "gravy fries" are Awryly idea, and that the use of the word "connoissuer" is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connoisseur

Adelaide is a Canadian.

It's embarrassing enough to be Awryly but to be his mascot...:sad: Poor Grumpydog.

[Chris]

TO RILEY FROM LAUGHING BOY .
PF's answer to the Moaning Lisa



Our leading Troll has come out with a new anthem .
Do you still get that ringing in the ears? Or are they now voices?
I would love to meet you . I bet you are the most boring person imaginable with your book in every room and forever taking laxatives .


Got to love it when two trolls meet and become BFFs.

Note how cary, like awryly, makes things up. One, because it's been demonstrated he's a troll, he echos the accusation, but with nothing to substantiate it. Two, he makes it up that reading books makes you boring--we should note that cary claims to write books. Three, he really makes up shit when he throws in laxatives.

I'll ask the same question of you, cary, why would I want to discuss anything with someone as disingenuous as you? You troll, you lie, you plagiarize. His trolling has been demonstrated many times. Three made up lies were just exposed. And for plagiarism, see http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9843-Are-more-civilised-nations-breeding-out-the-Authoritarian-personality--and not just the OP, but later in the thread again.

[zelmo1234]

So what has been learned so far?

Awryly, and now, Grumpdog too, knows that some Americans think sloppy gravy frenchfries are a delicacy reserved for the connoissuers.

So I will not be accused of plagarizing and lieing I acknowledge "gravy fries" are Awryly idea, and that the use of the word "connoissuer" is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connoisseur

So we see that NZ economy is growing faster than ours, and that they are using the basic tactics that the republicans want to use in the USA

They are leading the US in capital investment, and they have NO capital gains taxes?

They have no repatriotization taxes so companies that do invest over seas can bring that money back home.

They have Gun laws that rely on training and screening rather than banning weapons

They have decreased taxes and increased revenue?

And the only thing that you learned is to put Gravey on Fries? It is no wonder Obama was re-elected

I think that you can make the case that NZ is doing everything that the republicans want to do and it is working.

So what NZ can learn is to not do what obama is doing

[Awryly]

AW

[QUOTE]I know that you are not a high tax state, that is why you are growing, I actually plan to make a visit and am reasearching how forginers can invest in your country, your tax structure is simple and fair,

Speculation and investment into business is why you do not have a capital gains tax. with the increases that werew passed in the Senate last night, the clasification of rent as capital gains, and the new Obamacare taxes on capital gains, It makes very little sense to invest in the economy here!

I hate to stop growing, because if you are not growing, you are shrinking, So I will be looking for other countries. You have a great tax system.

If you want to start to have problems like we do, then you want to start adding those taxes.

where you are calling for higher taxes, is in this country, not yours.

But you asked what you can learn. Learn that taxations esoecially on capital investment is a sure way to stagnate your economy.


We are growing not much faster than you are. But a capital gains tax is essential to neutralise the destructive effects of the property speculators. They are placing unnecessary costs on every Kiwi just to make money from their speculation. That's unconscionable.

The revenue advantage that would accrue is far less important than the deterrent effect on these predators.


Now on to firearms policy.

You did not ban anything, you added some security requirments?????

Yes you have to get an "E" endorsment. And I looked and that is what I had to get to provide security in your country. But you are allowed ot own all but the weapons that are alread ban in the USA?

The Rambo style weapons as your politicians refered to them must carry a E endorsment and that is not easy to get, but you can get it.

I am not opposed to making people meet safty requirements, in our country, first af all there are a lot of people that ahve no idea how to handle a gun.

So you are making a mis leading statment, Austrailia has a ban on these weapons, and it is starting to show as there crime rate, which dropped in the begining has been rising for years.

So Please if I am missing something post a link so I can find and evaluate the current gun policy. Other than concealed carry which has lowered crime rates in states that have allow this policy. I could live with nearly all of your gun restrictions because they are based on background checks and educations= of safe use. That is great Gun policy. But I would not call it a Ban, by any means of the term.

Technically, you are correct. But to get an assault weapon or handgun, you have to go through many checks of character, mental state, etc, a high degree of training, and have so many constraints of how and where to use them that only criminals have them by and large. Most others are held by members of pistol clubs.

And, funnily enough, there is no clamour that because criminals have them, everyone else should too. Another NRA theory up in smoke.

Nor can you carry these or any other guns in public. If you try, you will be swiftly be surrounded by a SWAT team.

Even our cops are unarmed on the streets. They keep a Glock in their patrol cars but only for emergency use.

Which is why hardly anyone ever gets shot here.

[zelmo1234]

I was allowed to carry my handgun when I was in your country, but that might be something that they allow security personell!

By the way the NRA actually runs almost all of the safty and training program in this country, and they are usually free to those that attend!

So you see logical gun laws are not the enemy of a free people, they are ways to prevent criminials from aquirieng them

bans are wayss to give criminals the advantage.

[Awryly]

I was allowed to carry my handgun when I was in your country, but that might be something that they allow security personell!

By the way the NRA actually runs almost all of the safty and training program in this country, and they are usually free to those that attend!

So you see logical gun laws are not the enemy of a free people, they are ways to prevent criminials from aquirieng them

bans are wayss to give criminals the advantage.

Your pass to carry would have been on security clearance for security purposes. Who on earth were you securing?

But no-one can legally carry a weapon of any sort without adequate justification.

Criminals threaten no-one here. So we have no need, unlike you who have built your fear and paranoia to Cold War proportions, to carry weapons to defend ourselves. The person most likely to get killed by a criminal is another criminal. And that's why they keep guns.

Which makes nonsense of the theory that gun ownership among criminals leads to gun ownership amongst general society.

You have built yourself peculiarly absurd society based on guns.

[zelmo1234]

You may be correct we may be crazy, but at this point we have these guns, We have laws in place that handicap our police and we tell our criminals exactly where people will not have protection with them.

The governmentcan pass feel good laws, but they won't be able to deal with the millions that are already in the hand of the people.

[Chris]

Criminals threaten no-one here.

First hit, http://www.crime.co.nz/: Nelson woman attacked in garden (http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=159382&fm=cco): "A 62-year-old Nelson woman has been attacked and sexually assaulted as she tended community gardens on New Year's Day." At bottom of that page:


Other Law and Order News

02 Jan: 'Serial killer' abandons 'hell' persona

02 Jan: Waihi Beach stabbing witnesses sought

02 Jan: One sought over Panmure death

02 Jan: Baby's death not violent: police

01 Jan: South Auckland baby's death sparks inquiry

01 Jan: Stabbed holidaymaker fighting for life

01 Jan: Search for weapon after fatal assault


Next hit: http://www.police.govt.nz/service/statistics: Countless crimes.

Next hit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_Zealand


Crime in New Zealand is generally measured by the number of offences being reported to police per 100,000 people. However many crimes go unreported, especially sexual crimes, and do not appear in official statistics.[1] Victimization surveys collect information about people’s perceptions of crime and the criminal justice system and tend to give much higher figures than reported crime.

Crime rates in New Zealand rose for much of the C20th but began to decline during the 1990s (see graph). Despite the drop, crime often dominates much of the political debate in New Zealand and seems to be of huge interest to the general public....

Despite different means of measuring crime, the statistics show that crime rates in New Zealand rose through most of the twentieth century, following similar patterns in other Western countries. Towards the end of the century, the rate dropped and has stabilised or continued to drop slowly since then....

Despite the drop in crime, many New Zealanders continue to believe that violent crime is out of control....


"Criminals threaten no-one here."

Yea, right. Want to buy a bridge?

[Awryly]

So far no ideas other than my own and "poutine".

Here's another of my own which may resonsate with Americans.

Stop giving the wealthy benefits they don't need. The Australians means and asset test applicants for social welfare. Even their pension entitlements are thus tested.

In NZ (and the US), the rich are entitled to retirement pensions from the state. That's absurd. They don't need it.

The argument they put up is that because they contributed to government pension funds, they are entitled to the benefits.

Crap. They got rich. Millions didn't. They should be barred from receiving assistance others would be vastly more benefited by. The same should apply to many other benefits to which there is currently universal entitlement.

[Awryly]

You may be correct we may be crazy, but at this point we have these guns, We have laws in place that handicap our police and we tell our criminals exactly where people will not have protection with them.

The governmentcan pass feel good laws, but they won't be able to deal with the millions that are already in the hand of the people.

In my opinion, you're stuffed. You have uniquely (of the developed nations) created a monster.

And, frankly, I can't see a way out.

[Mister D]

First hit, http://www.crime.co.nz/: Nelson woman attacked in garden (http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=159382&fm=cco): "A 62-year-old Nelson woman has been attacked and sexually assaulted as she tended community gardens on New Year's Day." At bottom of that page:



Next hit: http://www.police.govt.nz/service/statistics: Countless crimes.

Next hit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_Zealand




"Criminals threaten no-one here."

Yea, right. Want to buy a bridge?

Damn! You're getting the living crap kicked out of you tonight, Awryly. :shocked:

[zelmo1234]

So far no ideas other than my own and "poutine".

Here's another of my own which may resonsate with Americans.

Stop giving the wealthy benefits they don't need. The Australians means and asset test applicants for social welfare. Even their pension entitlements are thus tested.

In NZ (and the US), the rich are entitled to retirement pensions from the state. That's absurd. They don't need it.

The argument they put up is that because they contributed to government pension funds, they are entitled to the benefits.

Crap. They got rich. Millions didn't. They should be barred from receiving assistance others would be vastly more benefited by. The same should apply to many other benefits to which there is currently universal entitlement.

I thought atha I made some good suggestions? but I guess you did not want to here that liberalism and socialism are what will cause your country to decline.

But you have a Good suggestion Means testing for Social Security and Medicare???

So if a retired person had an income of say 200K per year, they would not be eligable for SS and Medicare benifits or at least the would be reduced

does that about sum it up???

[Chris]

Damn! You're getting the living crap kicked out of you tonight, Awryly. :shocked:

And because he has us on ignore he's completely unaware of it.

http://i.snag.gy/h3RyE.jpg

[Awryly]

I thought atha I made some good suggestions? but I guess you did not want to here that liberalism and socialism are what will cause your country to decline.

But you have a Good suggestion Means testing for Social Security and Medicare???

So if a retired person had an income of say 200K per year, they would not be eligable for SS and Medicare benifits or at least the would be reduced

does that about sum it up???

Yup. The money could go to others less well off who actually need it.

As to your ideas, you are simply wrong.

I am in favour of raising the marginal tax on high income earners (I used to pay 66% on top dollar myself and didn't moan about it) and introducing a capital gains tax or speculation tax.

And I am also in favour of a supportive welfare state. Call it what you like, we have had it since 1935 and it works.

[Chris]

And I am also in favour of a supportive welfare state. Call it what you like, we have had it since 1935 and it works.

Explain how it "works". I mean, if it works, then won't most people prefer to go on welfare. But as more and more people go on welfare you have less and less people creating the wealth your welfare system like a parasite needs to suck dry. Eventually the well runs dry. Were your sucky welfare system to work it would fail.




As to your ideas, you are simply wrong.

zelmo, simply accept it, you're wrong. Awryly says so so therefore it must be so. :loco:

[Mister D]

And because he has us on ignore he's completely unaware of it.

http://i.snag.gy/h3RyE.jpg

Oh, he knows it. That's why he put me on ignore. :grin:

[Awryly]

I heard the rustle of dead leaves.

Is there something afoot in the woods? Perhaps the teddy bears are having a picnic?

[Awryly]

So what has been learned so far?

Awryly, and now, Grumpdog too, knows that some Americans think sloppy gravy frenchfries are a delicacy reserved for the connoissuers.


So I will not be accused of plagarizing and lieing I acknowledge "gravy fries" are Awryly idea, and that the use of the word "connoissuer" is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connoisseur


It was a Quebecois, Grumpy. Not an American.

What else have we learned?

[Awryly]

TO RILEY FROM LAUGHING BOY .
PF's answer to the Moaning Lisa




Our leading Troll has come out with a new anthem .
Do you still get that ringing in the ears? Or are they now voices?
I would love to meet you . I bet you are the most boring person imaginable with your book in every room and forever taking laxatives .


Meet him by all means.

But take a psychiatrist with you for protection.

Unless, of course, you are a psychiatrist.

Which would explain your need to meet him.
:romeo: :yo::yo:

[zelmo1234]

Yup. The money could go to others less well off who actually need it.

As to your ideas, you are simply wrong.

I am in favour of raising the marginal tax on high income earners (I used to pay 66% on top dollar myself and didn't moan about it) and introducing a capital gains tax or speculation tax.

And I am also in favour of a supportive welfare state. Call it what you like, we have had it since 1935 and it works.

Even though It would cost me my SS I like the idea, as it would extend the program for those that were decieved into thinking it was a retirement program

As a matter of fact? We did have a party supporting that Idea?

But then the democrats got in the way of a good idea again

http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/2012/12/democrat-opposition-to-means-testing-social-security-and-medicare-should-be-opportunity-for-republicans/

AW You are a republican, you just did not know it

[zelmo1234]

While we have not been able to teach NZ what to do, we still can learn a lot with the comparison.

In the USA we have Democrats in charge with heavy taxation, regulations, and cradle to grave benifits, they are crappy benifits that doom you to poverty, but they are decigned to be compaisionate. We know that these policies cost a ton and that the opressive taxes have business in America looking to invest, just not in their own country.

In NZ we see that low taxations, regulations and the lack of a Capital gains tax is working and people are investing, even with AW not liking the speculators investing in housing, that answer there is not taxations, but supply and demand, build more housing, and the speculators will get out of the market.

We learned that NZ does not ban any guns but requires educations and training. And that policies like this work.

It appears that we have learned that the conservative government is NZ is working and the Liberal govrenrment in the US is failing.

[Awryly]

While we have not been able to teach NZ what to do, we still can learn a lot with the comparison.

In the USA we have Democrats in charge with heavy taxation, regulations, and cradle to grave benifits, they are crappy benifits that doom you to poverty, but they are decigned to be compaisionate. We know that these policies cost a ton and that the opressive taxes have business in America looking to invest, just not in their own country.

In NZ we see that low taxations, regulations and the lack of a Capital gains tax is working and people are investing, even with AW not liking the speculators investing in housing, that answer there is not taxations, but supply and demand, build more housing, and the speculators will get out of the market.

We learned that NZ does not ban any guns but requires educations and training. And that policies like this work.

It appears that we have learned that the conservative government is NZ is working and the Liberal govrenrment in the US is failing.

Oh yes, they are lining their own pockets with the happy enthusiasm of Ryan and Norquist lunching on lobster and caviar.

Alas, the next government (a coalition let's call the Tea Totallers Party) will raise taxes on the rich, introduce a capital gains tax, adopt monetary policies to reduce our dollar (we'll just print a lot more like you), build houses funded by the state (100,000 has been mooted), tax polluters, reduce tax on the poor and other sundry policies that accept the principles you have supported in your various posts.

You will be even more thrilled than you are now.

[zelmo1234]

Oh yes, they are lining their own pockets with the happy enthusiasm of Ryan and Norquist lunching on lobster and caviar.

Alas, the next government (a coalition let's call the Tea Totallers Party) will raise taxes on the rich, introduce a capital gains tax, adopt monetary policies to reduce our dollar (we'll just print a lot more like you), build houses funded by the state (100,000 has been mooted), tax polluters, reduce tax on the poor and other sundry policies that accept the principles you have supported in your various posts.

You will be even more thrilled than you are now.

And you will achieve the same results that we have here in america. You rich will invest elsewhere, you econmy will stagnate, and your unemploy,ent will go us, your speculators will get out of the housing market though, as not only will you have 100000 government subsdised home but you will have all the people that have lost there jobs loosing theirs

You will have chosen the path that has America in her funk right now. But the good news, is with history as our guide America will be forced to adopt these conservative values, and you will see this country returning to conservative values of the reagan era, and the second tern of Clinto, if anyone will be honest. And we will begin to grow shackeled by the debt and the low value of the dollar which you desire, but we will start the 50 year process of coming out of our depression caused by the social policies of the Democrats.

Like all socialist countries we here in America will have run out of other peoples money!

What you are telling me AW is you desire our economy, because you are going to do exactly what wee did to get here.

So what you will have learned from America is Nothing just as you said.

[Chris]

Meet him by all means.

But take a psychiatrist with you for protection.

Unless, of course, you are a psychiatrist.

Which would explain your need to meet him.
:romeo: :yo::yo:

Indeed, cary is famous for his cracker-jack's box psychoanalyzing. Translation: Making up motives as strawmen to insult with and succeeding only in displaying for all to see his personality. Same as you do, awryly.

[Awryly]

And you will achieve the same results that we have here in america. You rich will invest elsewhere, you econmy will stagnate, and your unemploy,ent will go us, your speculators will get out of the housing market though, as not only will you have 100000 government subsdised home but you will have all the people that have lost there jobs loosing theirs

You will have chosen the path that has America in her funk right now. But the good news, is with history as our guide America will be forced to adopt these conservative values, and you will see this country returning to conservative values of the reagan era, and the second tern of Clinto, if anyone will be honest. And we will begin to grow shackeled by the debt and the low value of the dollar which you desire, but we will start the 50 year process of coming out of our depression caused by the social policies of the Democrats.

Like all socialist countries we here in America will have run out of other peoples money!

What you are telling me AW is you desire our economy, because you are going to do exactly what wee did to get here.

So what you will have learned from America is Nothing just as you said.

1. The whole point of a tax on property speculators is to force them to invest elsewhere. And why would we want them all if they do is distort the markets and produce nothing? Other investors would be unlikely to by affected by a small capital gains tax. After all, we are one of the few, perhaps the only developed country, not to have such a tax.

But it would be possible to target property speculators without necessarily taxing other investors, if that were thought desirable.

2. Speculators don't employ many, if any, people. So their demise would have no impact on the labour market. Rather, if they directed their investments to productive activities, there would be a rise in employment.

3. "All socialist countries" have not run out of other people's money; nor even their own. That's just a wee myth you cons have to spin to cement the notion that Obama is following bad practice. When (a) "socialist countries", like those in Australasia and Scandinavia, have relatively low debt and (b) most of your debt rose from Bush II's antics. But you get round (b) by now spinning the line that Bush was a "socialist". Ho hum.

[Chris]

3. "All socialist countries" have not run out of other people's money; nor even their own. That's just a wee myth you cons have to spin to cement the notion that Obama is following bad practice. When (a) "socialist countries", like those in Australasia and Scandinavia, have relatively low debt and (b) most of your debt rose from Bush II's antics. But you get round (b) by now spinning the line that Bush was a "socialist". Ho hum.


(a) "socialist countries", like those in Australasia and Scandinavia, have relatively low debt

They aren't socialist. See, for instance, The Sweden Canard (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/7483-The-Sweden-Canard?highlight=norway). It looks at Sweden and Norway, and the canard of the left pointing to them as socialist.

Thus (a) is false.


(b) most of your debt rose from Bush II's antics

From Politifact, Did Barack Obama accrue more debt in half the time as George Bush? (http://www.politifact.com/new-hampshire/statements/2012/sep/05/kelly-ayotte/did-barack-obama-accrue-more-debt-half-time-george/): "Ayotte’s got her numbers right. According to the treasury department’s count, the debt has grown $5.3 trillion since Obama took office in 2009, compared to $4.9 trillion in Bush’s eight years."

Thus (b) is false.

And therefore your conclusion


That's just a wee myth you cons have to spin to cement the notion that Obama is following bad practice.

is also false.

Moreover, your claim


"All socialist countries" have not run out of other people's money; nor even their own.

is interesting in that what you are claiming is really just that socialism has not yet run out of other people's money. For as it takes more an more through regulation and taxation, it will reach a point of diminishing returns, just as our government has, where there is less and less to take.


I'd comment on your trying to make speculation into a dysphemism as most liberals do, but it's to silly to consider and you have me blocked anyhow.

[Awryly]

Still waiting for helpful advice.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/sloan-maintenance-guide-royal.gif

[zelmo1234]

Still waiting for helpful advice.

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/sloan-maintenance-guide-royal.gif

should not have sold that technology to Whirlpool, they took all of your market share, and it caused you to have to sell one of your good manufacturing companies to China.

[Awryly]

should not have sold that technology to Whirlpool, they took all of your market share, and it caused you to have to sell one of your good manufacturing companies to China.

I'm sure the investors got a good return and will invest the proceeds of the sale wisely.

[GrumpyDog]

I'm sure the investors got a good return and will invest the proceeds of the sale wisely.

Chris has constructed an argument that you are false.

[Chris]

Chris has constructed an argument that you are false.

Rather that some of the things he says are false and that even shown they are false he repeats them. For example, he's been claiming the US has a poverty rate of 23%. I went and looked his source. His source explained the figure was nonsense. Still he keeps posting it's 23%.

He lies, plagiarizes, trolls, says racist things, etc.

But saying he's false doesn't make much sense.

[GrumpyDog]

Chris says, that you are not false Awryly, but some of your statements are false.

[Mister D]

GrumpyDog is Awryly's mascot. How sad. :sad:

[Mister D]

It was a choice between him, or the unenlightened one. So I flipped a coin.

It's embarrassing enough to be Awryly but to be his mascot? :sad:

[GrumpyDog]

It was a choice between the Mister D,( unenlighted one), or Awryly.(wise guy). So I flipped a coin, and the Wise Guy won.

[Chris]

It was a choice between the Mister D,( unenlighted one), or Awryly.(wise guy). So I flipped a coin, and the Wise Guy won.

Wise Guy? That's Cigar.

[Mister D]

It was a choice between the Mister D,( unenlighted one), or Awryly.(wise guy). So I flipped a coin, and the Wise Guy won.

Granted, you can't rise above the level of mascot but the mascot of Awryly? That's just embarrassing.

[GrumpyDog]

Granted, you can't rise above the level of mascot but the mascot of Awryly? That's just embarrassing.

It must be difficult for Mister dumbfounded to understand. You must get out of that unlit ceptic tank more often, and see the illumination above ground.

[Mister D]

It must be difficult for Mister dumbfounded to understand. You must get out of that unkit ceptic tank more often. A little illumination, above ground, will do you some good.

Frankly, I'm not sure I want to understand. I almost feel embarrassed for you. It's painful to watch. :sad:

[GrumpyDog]

Frankly, I'm not sure I want to understand. I almost feel embarrassed for you. It's painful to watch. :sad:

Like looking at your portrait. I feel your pain. May I suggest ignore? It worked wonders for Awryly, so maybe for you too.

Otherwise, you will have to continue feeling embarrassed.

[Mister D]

Like looking at your portrait. I feel your pain. May I suggest ignore? It worked wonders for Awryly, so maybe for you too.

Otherwise, you will have to continue feeling embarrassed.

It sure helps Awryly avoid the thorough bitch slappings I've been treating him to. :smiley:

Anyway, no. It's somewhat ghoulish of me but it's like a bad car accident. It's awful but I can't help looking at it.

[GrumpyDog]

It sure helps Awryly avoid the thorough bitch slappings I've been treating him to. :smiley:

Anyway, no. It's somewhat ghoulish of me but it's like a bad car accident. It's awful but I can't help looking at it.

You realize that cannabalism is against the law, here in the USA? Now if u want to move to NZ, maybe ghoulishness is acceptable there.

Maybe they tolerate unenlightened cross dressers there, in which case, your attire will be readily accepted.

[Mister D]

You realize that cannabalism is against the law, here in the USA? Now if u want to move to NZ, maybe ghoulishness is acceptable there.

Maybe they tolerate unenlightened cross dressers there, in which case, your attire will be readily accepted.

Your comebacks are as lame as Awryly's. I see the attraction. :grin:

[GrumpyDog]

Your comebacks are as lame as Awryly's. I see the attraction. :grin:

Your previous attire, was more in line with your true, comical, imperialist self. However, since this is the modern age, perhaps this avatar:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/thumb/8/8e/526346324634.jpg/185px-526346324634.jpg

[Mister D]

Your previous attire, was more in line with your true, comical, imperialist self. However, since this is the modern age, perhaps this avatar:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/thumb/8/8e/526346324634.jpg/185px-526346324634.jpg

I stand corrected. Somehow you've managed to be even lamer than Awryly. :shocked: Quite a feat! Now I we understand why you are the lackey. So sad. :sad:

[GrumpyDog]

I stand corrected. Somehow you've managed to be even lamer than Awryly. :shocked: Quite a feat! Now I we understand why you are the lackey. So sad. :sad:

Well, I am laughing out loud. Having fun at your expense, is enjoyable. Sorry you are so sad, but hey as long as one of us is happy, all is good.

[Mister D]

Well, I am laughing out loud. Having fun at your expense, is enjoyable. Sorry you are so sad, but hey as long as one of us is happy, all is good.

The fact that you need to tell me that makes me laugh loud. Really. :laugh:

[GrumpyDog]

The fact that you need to tell me that makes me laugh loud. Really. :laugh:

Well then we are both happy, and laughing, so even better.:cheers:

[Awryly]

Your previous attire, was more in line with your true, comical, imperialist self. However, since this is the modern age, perhaps this avatar:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/thumb/8/8e/526346324634.jpg/185px-526346324634.jpg

Or maybe this? It has more an air of metro insouciance.

Which, of course, our Hobbits are suspected to be mightily fond of.

http://media-cache0.pinterest.com/upload/264093965618987428_aHaFyESd_c.jpg

[Awryly]

...why can't we?

The high dollar is killing exports and tourism.


If exporters thought this year was hard going, then 2013 is shaping up to be even tougher if the pundits prove correct and the New Zealand dollar continues to grind its way higher.
When the New Zealand currency (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/middle-east/news/article.cfm?l_id=8&objectid=10856143#)appreciates, exporters' returns diminish as they repatriate profits from overseas into fewer kiwi dollars
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/middle-east/news/article.cfm?l_id=8&objectid=10856143

Yet the government refuses to print money. Everyone else does it. But for some reason we don't.

It claims there are "fiscal implications". Anyone know what they might be?

Higher nominal debt? That would freak out a government that has mismanaged the economy, yet still wants to look good.

I imagine it also thinks we still have adequate leeway, since we are still growing at about 2% despite the dollar.

[zelmo1234]

...why can't we?

The high dollar is killing exports and tourism.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/middle-east/news/article.cfm?l_id=8&objectid=10856143

Yet the government refuses to print money. Everyone else does it. But for some reason we don't.

It claims there are "fiscal implications". Anyone know what they might be?

Higher nominal debt? That would freak out a government that has mismanaged the economy, yet still wants to look good.

I imagine it also thinks we still have adequate leeway, since we are still growing at about 2% despite the dollar.

First you dollar is only worth 83 cent compaired to the US dollar or the world monitary unit? (why we are still trading in US dollars is another debate)

So you already have an advantage when it comes to exports as the dollar buys is worth about $1,20 in Kiwi dollars.

Next youare an Island country that has to import many of it's items for daily life?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10785653

Because your conservative leaders have not been printing money your dollar has risen against the world standard, and it sounds like your people have not really noticed that it cost a lot to live in NZ because of it. They have more buying power!

but if you add the inflation that comes will printing money, it will make it even more expensive to live in NZ that iti already is?

And we have already been through the relitivelly low average income in your country

No! your monitar police is sound, and as you can see your curency has become a great investment for the world.

did a little of that myself becasue of the researce that I have been doing because of this conversation with You. Thanks looks like I might be able to make a few bucks on the deal.

[Awryly]

First you dollar is only worth 83 cent compaired to the US dollar or the world monitary unit? (why we are still trading in US dollars is another debate)

So you already have an advantage when it comes to exports as the dollar buys is worth about $1,20 in Kiwi dollars.

Next youare an Island country that has to import many of it's items for daily life?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10785653

Because your conservative leaders have not been printing money your dollar has risen against the world standard, and it sounds like your people have not really noticed that it cost a lot to live in NZ because of it. They have more buying power!

but if you add the inflation that comes will printing money, it will make it even more expensive to live in NZ that iti already is?

And we have already been through the relitivelly low average income in your country

No! your monitar police is sound, and as you can see your curency has become a great investment for the world.

did a little of that myself becasue of the researce that I have been doing because of this conversation with You. Thanks looks like I might be able to make a few bucks on the deal.

Well, I can see you are not an economist. Our high dollar makes exports expensive and imports cheap. Not the other way round.

Which may be another reason the government likes a high dollar that helps to keep inflation low. It makes it look good. Though it doesn't help achieve savings and local investment goals if people can import consumer goods relatively cheaply, and thus over-consume.

High costs of living in the main cities reflect in large degree the rocketing costs of housing and rental. Which arises in large degree because the government has done nothing to contain them. Auckland is one of the most expensive cities in the world to own a home. It's just trading (it would say "balancing") one economic evil against another.

[zelmo1234]

While I did not do the best job, that is what I was trying to say?

Because your dollar is rising against the world trading standard the US dollar, and God knows why people are still using this as we get ready to fire up the prointing press again

It gives your dollar more buying power and helps to offset your inflation rate.

There is danger in printing money like we are and we are very close to realizing that danger. #1 if we loose our triple A credit rating and Moodu's is tell the government that they are considering it, if they do not make real and meaningful spending cuts. We will have to raise our interest rates. this will double our anual deficite and we will becone totally insolvent within 3 to 5 years.

Which means no socials safty net, no spending on roads or educations it may even end governemnt pensions.

there are 2 modern examples of trying to print you way to prosperity, #1 would be 1929 to 1943 Gernany and then Japan in the 90"s which they call the lost decade

You should be very proud of your governments monitary policy.

And as for exports?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10847678

Your government think that social saftynet soending and lack of large companies and population are the biggest issue

The talk about the pressure that speding is putting on the dollar and looks like they are trying to continually adjust their tax code to attract outside inverstors.

I have to say I will be putiting your country on the board Monday and challenging our remaining staff to find a way to make profits in the houseing sector in NZ

It looks like you need affordable efficient housing to bring relief to housing sector, and you tax policy is good and possibly getting better, You government wants forgien investment, meaning that tax credits are very possible.

What does your labor market look like as far as contractors, painters plumbers ect. Are they avialable and do you happen to know the average salary?

[Mister D]

More love notes from Carygrant...:grin:


Another who thinks you are a wanker


We are not dating. Ever. Deal with it.

[Chris]

http://i.snag.gy/Qjoh2.jpg

(Just in case, :-P)

[Peter1469]

...why can't we?

The high dollar is killing exports and tourism.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/middle-east/news/article.cfm?l_id=8&objectid=10856143

Yet the government refuses to print money. Everyone else does it. But for some reason we don't.

It claims there are "fiscal implications". Anyone know what they might be?

Higher nominal debt? That would freak out a government that has mismanaged the economy, yet still wants to look good.

I imagine it also thinks we still have adequate leeway, since we are still growing at about 2% despite the dollar.

Printing money is a partial debt default; it is just that people don't look at it that way.

[Awryly]

Printing money is a partial debt default; it is just that people don't look at it that way.

Only if competing countries do not at the same time devalue their currencies at more or the less the same rate.

But you may have a point. NZ may have to go to the international market to help fund the Christchurch rebuild. It would probably not do that very successfully if, at the time, if signalled an intention to devalue the currency.

[Awryly]

While I did not do the best job, that is what I was trying to say?

Because your dollar is rising against the world trading standard the US dollar, and God knows why people are still using this as we get ready to fire up the prointing press again

It gives your dollar more buying power and helps to offset your inflation rate.

There is danger in printing money like we are and we are very close to realizing that danger. #1 if we loose our triple A credit rating and Moodu's is tell the government that they are considering it, if they do not make real and meaningful spending cuts. We will have to raise our interest rates. this will double our anual deficite and we will becone totally insolvent within 3 to 5 years.

Which means no socials safty net, no spending on roads or educations it may even end governemnt pensions.

there are 2 modern examples of trying to print you way to prosperity, #1 would be 1929 to 1943 Gernany and then Japan in the 90"s which they call the lost decade

You should be very proud of your governments monitary policy.

And as for exports?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10847678

Your government think that social saftynet soending and lack of large companies and population are the biggest issue

The talk about the pressure that speding is putting on the dollar and looks like they are trying to continually adjust their tax code to attract outside inverstors.

I have to say I will be putiting your country on the board Monday and challenging our remaining staff to find a way to make profits in the houseing sector in NZ

It looks like you need affordable efficient housing to bring relief to housing sector, and you tax policy is good and possibly getting better, You government wants forgien investment, meaning that tax credits are very possible.

What does your labor market look like as far as contractors, painters plumbers ect. Are they avialable and do you happen to know the average salary?

We are cutting our own throats by not matching the currency devaluation going on in most other countries. The Weimar Republic had to devalue to maintain any sort of purchasing power and got into an inflation spiral. That's not the case in modern devaluations, simply because everyone is doing it.

The NZ government has said nothing about artificial population acceleration. What you have been looking at is a bullshit proposal by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) on behalf of lobby group ExportNZ. A lobby group.

This country's future is not in more hard commodities. (It may be in smarter hard commodities but the manufacturing sector has been reluctant to develop value-added production.)

Manufacturing in NZ is a dead-brainer. In many instances we don't have the right mix of resources (so we would have to import them), our markets are thousands of miles away (not, like the UK, just across the Channel), and we have the whole of SE Asia to do that far more cheaply for us on contract.

Our way forward is in scientific innovation, design development, smart software development and niche industries such as the film industry we have developed over the last decade. We have smart, well-educated people who are already doing those things. We don't need another 10 million people (with all their attendant costs) to do that.

And our tourism is critical. Our high dollar is hurting it. Tourism employs high numbers of people in small businesses, so it meets employment as well as economic objectives if it is allowed to operate without the constraints of dollar pressure.

Since you've asked, we will be on a bit of a building spree not only with the affordable housing proposed by (probably) the next government, but also in a massive rebuild of Christchurch.

We will need contractors and traddies in large numbers. Many of them will come from Australia, especially now that its mining boom is faltering. Many of them will be returning Kiwis. And the government is sponsoring thousands of apprenticeships. Another example of why you need government. Left to itself, the industry would not bother or would do it far too late, slowing everything down.

I have no idea what wages these people will get. But there is an Internet, you know.

[Peter1469]

Only if competing countries do not at the same time devalue their currencies at more or the less the same rate.

But you may have a point. NZ may have to go to the international market to help fund the Christchurch rebuild. It would probably not do that very successfully if, at the time, if signalled an intention to devalue the currency.

Every nation does it, I am sure that you can get away with it. The question is whether you want to do that to your savings.

[Awryly]

Every nation does it, I am sure that you can get away with it. The question is whether you want to do that to your savings.

The effect on reducing our private debt (which is high, mainly because most of our mortgages are to overseas banks) would make it worthwhile. Provided it was kept at a reasonable level.

[Carygrant]

More love notes from Carygrant...:grin:
We are not dating. Ever. Deal with it.


I am quite happy to show you publicly how stupid you are . Because you are old and apparently unwell , I thought I would save you embarrassment of public laughter .
It seems somebody else thinks you are a Wanker . Why admit being this stupid?
However , as you insist , I am happy to show you why you are a figure of fun .When are you 85?

[Mister D]

I am quite happy to show you publicly how stupid you are . Because you are old and apparently unwell , I thought I would save you embarrassment of public laughter .
It seems somebody else thinks you are a Wanker . Why admit being this stupid?
However , as you insist , I am happy to show you why you are a figure of fun .When are you 85?

Bitch tits, your infatuation with me is amusing but there are millions of Americans who are smarter than you and better informed than you will ever be. Play the field. :smiley: Humiliating you this afternoon was fun. You finally realized how ridiculous you actually are and it shows. Keep lashing out. :grin:

[Peter1469]

The effect on reducing our private debt (which is high, mainly because most of our mortgages are to overseas banks) would make it worthwhile. Provided it was kept at a reasonable level.

That is the key. The entire concept of debt spending and fractional reserve banking is a great wealth creator, provided it is kept at a reasonable level.

Lehaman's Brothers was leveraged at 26:1 when it went bust. Several EuroZone nations are at the level today.

[Awryly]

That is the key. The entire concept of debt spending and fractional reserve banking is a great wealth creator, provided it is kept at a reasonable level.

Lehaman's Brothers was leveraged at 26:1 when it went bust. Several EuroZone nations are at the level today.

NZ governments of whatever complexion have always been fiscally astute. Which is one of the reasons we have such low public debt. But private debt has got well out of hand. Devaluing the dollar would, among other things, help to encourage savings rather than spending.

Our exchange rate should be about 70-75 cents NZ to $US1 rather than the current $NZ0.83 - expected to go higher.

[Peter1469]

NZ governments of whatever complexion have always been fiscally astute. Which is one of the reasons we have such low public debt. But private debt has got well out of hand. Devaluing the dollar would, among other things, help to encourage savings rather than spending.

Our exchange rate should be about 70-75 cents NZ to $US1 rather than the current $NZ0.83 - expected to go higher.


Devaluing the dollar (if you mean NZ money, and not the USD) destroys NZ savings and is a disincentive to saving.

Why should I save $100K if it will be worth $60K in 10 years? Spend it now and ask for government assistance later.

[Awryly]

Devaluing the dollar (if you mean NZ money, and not the USD) destroys NZ savings and is a disincentive to saving.

Why should I save $100K if it will be worth $60K in 10 years? Spend it now and ask for government assistance later.

That would be offset by debt reduction. Fund managers may not be pleased but mortgage holders would.

As I said before, it's a balancing act.

[Peter1469]

That would be offset by debt reduction. Fund managers may not be pleased but mortgage holders would.

As I said before, it's a balancing act.

True for mortgage holders. So these polices help those who took out too much in a mortgage, assuming that they can service their debt. And it screws those who chose to take on a more realistic mortgage. It leads itself to a moral hazard, where people are incentivized to enter into more debt than they would otherwise rationally enter into. Artificially low interest rates do the same thing and were a part of our housing bubble. (And artificially low interest rates push up housing prices.)

[zelmo1234]

AW do you think that a housing collapse liek the one we had here in America is what NZ needs. You seem to be advocating the same policies that brought about our current financial challenges??

[zelmo1234]

That would be offset by debt reduction. Fund managers may not be pleased but mortgage holders would.

As I said before, it's a balancing act.

A tight wire act is more like the truth, there is zero margin for error.

You are correct that fund managers would not be happy, and neither would investors. They would have little reason to invest. pulling their money for greener pastures.

So your unemployment rate would go up not a ton but nearly one percent, this would drive more government spending and possibly more migration to the Aussie state to find good paying jobs.

Now your reveneu would start to drop and you could have increasing debt if that were to happen your government would either have to raise taxes or cut other spending, and it is likely that they would do neither. And you just went down the same path as the USA and will get the same results.

You are much better off pulling outside investment with low debt and an increasein value of your curency, which right now is a great and little know investment.

If, or should I say when obama and the fed print another round of money, and your debt drops even lower, you could gain 5 to 7 cents on the US dollar. in jsut a few months expanding the buying power of the Kiwi dollar. Great investment for those that can tax advantage of the stronger US dollar right now.

Because of this conversation I am investing in your country, and it will become more and more known, your capital in the next few years should drive an economic expansing like the USA witnessed after the Reafan years, and with the increased buying power of the Kiwi dollar, the standard of living should start to rise as well. plus when you are at almost full employment the average sapary will finallly start to rise in your country. Then the trick is to let corrections and small recessions happen. In the USA we put in policies that prevented the natural cooling of the economy and pushed it all the way to the collapse in 2009

[GrumpyDog]

We got a training program, to turn your sheepdogs into killer attack dogs, complete with bullet proof vests and camera lazer guide for smart missiles. Just in case NZ needs to track down some terrorist that CIA created to fight an earlier war against an evil empire that no longer exists.

[GrumpyDog]

USA also offers a dog harnass for any Mitt Romney New Zealanders (I know, it an oyxmoron.. ) but.. just in case.. so dog does not have to be strapped to roof, but can ride on the back seat.

Also available are flag carpets (your choice) on which dog behind can be kept from touching the seat of the luxury car driven.

[Awryly]

AW do you think that a housing collapse liek the one we had here in America is what NZ needs. You seem to be advocating the same policies that brought about our current financial challenges??

We had a housing slump in 2007 ahead of your Great Depression. Prices have recovered, and in some cities like Auckland, outstripped the earlier highs. Population pressure in the cities exacerbated by low construction levels, wealthy immigrants and returning Kiwis (also wealthy) have all combined to raise prices.

And I am not advocating the craziness of the Bush administration. NZ governments are not that stupid. Usually.

[Peter1469]

The Bush administration tried to stop the housing bubble- it was called racist by the democratic Congress.

[Awryly]

True for mortgage holders. So these polices help those who took out too much in a mortgage, assuming that they can service their debt. And it screws those who chose to take on a more realistic mortgage. It leads itself to a moral hazard, where people are incentivized to enter into more debt than they would otherwise rationally enter into. Artificially low interest rates do the same thing and were a part of our housing bubble. (And artificially low interest rates push up housing prices.)

Which is one of the contributing factors to NZ's current high house prices. But far from the only one.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/new-zealand-interest-rate.png?s=nzocrs&d1=20000101&d2=20130131

[Awryly]

Someone, somewhere, in a fit of what I assume was insanity, (I've lost track of it - probably sanely) claimed that NZ's high dollar was a fantastic idea.

Whoever that was (I have lost track of him) may like to reflect that the NZ unemployment rate has shot up exponentially.

Exporters and tourism enterprises can't compete. So what do they do? They sack people. And now we are coming close to US levels.

I think his argument was that, if we reduce the dollar, somehow exporters with a new competitive edge would lay off workers in large numbers.

I guess it takes all sorts.

[zelmo1234]

We had a housing slump in 2007 ahead of your Great Depression. Prices have recovered, and in some cities like Auckland, outstripped the earlier highs. Population pressure in the cities exacerbated by low construction levels, wealthy immigrants and returning Kiwis (also wealthy) have all combined to raise prices.

And I am not advocating the craziness of the Bush administration. NZ governments are not that stupid. Usually.


I have been looking into the construction and construction codes for your home??????

WTF!!! it is no wonder there was so much damage in Christ Church

I can not think of one area in our country that a home built to the codes that I can find on the net would pass inspection for occupancy

The only thing that I can think of is that building materials are very hard to come by??? but you seem to have a lot of natural resourses and imports from austrailia can not be that expensive, can they????

With your current housing prices and the realitivly small size of your homes. (not an insult, all homes are smaller in Island nations) it seems that they should be way more energy efficient, and better climate contol.

The market there seems ripe for the picking, it I can just figure out how to make the logistics work, and hire and train some trade professionals to build a home that will blow away your current building codes.

I hope that your government is moving to chage these codes for the better.

[Awryly]

I have been looking into the construction and construction codes for your home??????

WTF!!! it is no wonder there was so much damage in Christ Church

I can not think of one area in our country that a home built to the codes that I can find on the net would pass inspection for occupancy

The only thing that I can think of is that building materials are very hard to come by??? but you seem to have a lot of natural resourses and imports from austrailia can not be that expensive, can they????

With your current housing prices SMS the realitivly small size of your homes. (not an insult, all homes are smaller in Island nations) it seems that they should be way more energy efficient, and better climate contol.

The market there seems ripe for the picking, it I can just figure out how to make the logistics work, and hire and train some trade professionals to build a home that will blow away your current building codes.

I hope that your government is moving to chage these codes for the better.
Really.??

Gorn. Pick.

[TheRevBytes]

Awryly? Lol...Oh noes!~ good to see you. Onward?; To reply to the OP. ie ; "OK. Some nitty-gritty. What can the US or IK teach New Zealand?" My guess is that the cultures are so different that the USA attempting to teach NZ would be like a Klansman trying to teach a NBP member ethics. Hey! It may work! Seriously I like diversity, and truly detest homogeneity. I would rather the world retain its cultural and racial diversity than become a one world government led one world race one world everything. How boring would be that be? Terminally so. Not that mixing the races do not produce beautiful people (appearance wise), it does. Its more like the benefits of genetic diversity in the gene pool which is usally all good, but a too similar/small a gene pool is all bad..eh? lol. TRB

[zelmo1234]

So I guess that the are not with your answer,

So the USA can teach NZ how to build a home!

[Peter1469]

Someone, somewhere, in a fit of what I assume was insanity, (I've lost track of it - probably sanely) claimed that NZ's high dollar was a fantastic idea.

Whoever that was (I have lost track of him) may like to reflect that the NZ unemployment rate has shot up exponentially.

Exporters and tourism enterprises can't compete. So what do they do? They sack people. And now we are coming close to US levels.

I think his argument was that, if we reduce the dollar, somehow exporters with a new competitive edge would lay off workers in large numbers.

I guess it takes all sorts.

High currency values do hurt nations. I expect that, in general, the tourists that you attract are the high end type who don't care much about money. And exports are at a disadvantage.

[Awryly]

So I guess that the are not with your answer,

So the USA can teach NZ how to build a home!

Again, you are talking out of your wrong end.

NZ earthquake building standards are among the highest and most stringent in the world. They have to be.

You might have come in handy in 1864 when they started to design and build the cathedral that fell over during months of Christchurch earthquakes.

[Awryly]

High currency values do hurt nations. I expect that, in general, the tourists that you attract are the high end type who don't care much about money. And exports are at a disadvantage.

Yes. But high-end tourists are not enough to support low-end tourist operators. So they have to go out of business until things improve.

[zelmo1234]

Yes they are world famous in NZ

Like I said, unless what is published is out of date, you could not get a home or commercial building approved for occupancy in the United States.

Now: it may very well be that what is posted is out of date!

[Peter1469]

Yes. But high-end tourists are not enough to support low-end tourist operators. So they have to go out of business until things improve.

I agree.

Maybe I should plan a trip there. I would like to get a horse, and a couple of midgets- call them "hobbits" and have some "orcs" hobbit-nap them and drag them across the country side. I could "chase" them (no missing out on sleep for me) and after a couple of weeks "free" the hobbits and "kill" the orcs. And I need a sword. I would pay good money for that. Especially if I had a crew with me that would set up camp and cook 5 star meals at night (I could rough it for breakfast and lunch).

[Awryly]

Yes they are world famous in NZ

Like I said, unless what is published is out of date, you could not get a home or commercial building approved for occupancy in the United States.

Now: it may very well be that what is posted is out of date!

There are a raft of Standards Institute codes and another raft of local body regulations. And our scientists are continually developing improved methods.

The new Wellington hospital is state of the art. It is built on shock absorbers and has flexible connections to all utilities, among many other design protections.

It has to be. It's on a faultline.

But we have a legacy of old buildings. Many of them are being made earthquake resistant but that does not apply to the many homes built, often of brick (particularly susceptible to quake damage), 80-100 years ago.

[Awryly]

I agree.

Maybe I should plan a trip there. I would like to get a horse, and a couple of midgets- call them "hobbits" and have some "orcs" hobbit-nap them and drag them across the country side. I could "chase" them (no missing out on sleep for me) and after a couple of weeks "free" the hobbits and "kill" the orcs. And I need a sword. I would pay good money for that. Especially if I had a crew with me that would set up camp and cook 5 star meals at night (I could rough it for breakfast and lunch).

I have a sword I could lend you.

Bring high-end cash.

[Awryly]

Awryly? Lol...Oh noes!~ good to see you. Onward?; To reply to the OP. ie ; "OK. Some nitty-gritty. What can the US or IK teach New Zealand?" My guess is that the cultures are so different that the USA attempting to teach NZ would be like a Klansman trying to teach a NBP member ethics. Hey! It may work! Seriously I like diversity, and truly detest homogeneity. I would rather the world retain its cultural and racial diversity than become a one world government led one world race one world everything. How boring would be that be? Terminally so. Not that mixing the races do not produce beautiful people (appearance wise), it does. Its more like the benefits of genetic diversity in the gene pool which is usally all good, but a too similar/small a gene pool is all bad..eh? lol. TRB

Our gene pool is just fine at the deep end.

We have one of the most diverse societies on the planet. Over 30% of us are officially not of European descent and many more don't confess to being to part this or part that - whether Maori, Pacific Islander, Asian, Middle Eastern or African.

We started early. Intermarriage between the indigenous people and Europeans was and is now even more common. No-one gives it a thought. Unlike the US, Canada and Australia.

There are a few ethnic tensions but they amount to very little. We have never had a race riot.

I have a part Maori step-mother and part Chinese grand-daughter. And that does not, of course, include the many European mixes.

[Mister D]

Why does Awryly continue to lie about racial attitudes in New Zealand?

Anyway, no, New Zealand is not particularly diverse relative to the US or Canada. There are populations from all over the world here.

[Mister D]

Oh, and the fact that you feel compelled to laud the values (e.g. racial and ethnic pluralism) bequeathed to you by your American colonizers demonstrates how eminently silly your anti-Americanism is. :smiley:

[Awryly]

Why does Awryly continue to lie about racial attitudes in New Zealand?

Anyway, no, New Zealand is not particularly diverse relative to the US or Canada. There are populations from all over the world here.

I see you are still wittering on about this.

OK. What "lies" have I told? Try to use facts that show NZ is (a) not diverse and (b) has widespread racial violent conflict - like you have.

[Mister D]

I see you are still wittering on about this.

OK. What "lies" have I told?

Racism is rife in New Zealand. That's already been demonstrated. Anyone interested can simply look up "racism in New Zealand". :smiley: Why do you always lie about that?

[Mister D]

Better still, you just left this comment a few days ago!




And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511



:roflmao: No racism to see here, folks! Just a Kiwi enjoying the wonders of diversity.

[Awryly]

Better still, you just left this comment a few days ago!



:roflmao: No racism to see here, folks! Just a Kiwi enjoying the wonders of diversity.

So how is that "racist"? If people commit crimes, they go to jail. Whatever their ethnicity.

Maori commit crimes more often than anyone else. So they go to jail more often.

How hard is that to comprehend?

Do you think we make up crimes only Maori can commit? Like sharing a bus with a white man?

[Awryly]

And before you start wasting your (no doubt useless) time dredging up silly examples of intolerance, consider this:


"Auckland is what we call a super diverse city; it's right up there with Toronto in terms of migrant populations and international surveys have shown that New Zealanders are warmer, and in some ways considerably warmer to people from other countries then elsewhere."

New Zealanders are accepting ethnic diversity as "part of our reality" and most no longer view migrant communities with suspicion like we did in the 1990s.
Almost seven in 10 Aucklanders in a Herald street poll said they were comfortable with the ethnic diversity in Auckland, and 72 per cent said they have a close friend or friends outside their own ethnic group.


More than six in 10 also felt New Zealand society today was "multicultural" and slightly more than half said they would be comfortable even if Asians, Pacific and Maori outnumbered Europeans in the city.


These were some of the findings of a survey of 214 Aucklanders taken at Albany, Botany, New Lynn and the central city between September 22 and 30.



And....your pet example of Kiwi intolerance:


recent efforts to stir similar anti-Asian sentiments in Auckland last year by political activist group the Right Wing Resistance "failed to get off the ground", he said.

They were a bunch of rightwing fascists who failed (you're rightwing, aren't you? So you will understand that.).

And here's the link you always so desperately screech for. Study it well.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10837572

[Mister D]

So how is that "racist"? If people commit crimes, they go to jail. Whatever their ethnicity.

Maori commit crimes more often than anyone else. So they go to jail more often.

How hard is that to comprehend?

Do you think we make up crimes only Maori can commit? Like sharing a bus with a white man?

:laugh: If you don't understand why that comment was ridiculous in light of your constant babbling about racism in the US then you just don't get it. Shrug. We'll keep laughing though.

[Mister D]

And before you start wasting your (no doubt useless) time dredging up silly examples of intolerance, consider this:



And....your pet example of Kiwi intolerance:



They were a bunch of rightwing fascists who failed (you're rightwing, aren't you? So you will understand that.).

And here's the link you always so desperately screech for. Study it well.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10837572

OK.


These were some of the findings of a survey of 214 Aucklanders taken at Albany, Botany, New Lynn and the central city between September 22 and 30.

I studied it! Thanks. :smiley_ROFLMAO:BTW, noddy, that sort of group doesn't "get off the ground" in Europe either which tells us precisely nothing about anti-immigrant attitudes since the public is still overwhelmingly against migration.


The latest race relations research confirms it is a sad trend according to 74 percent of respondents in a survey.
Asians were discriminated against. Sixty-eight percent said overweight people suffered discrimination while Pacific peoples and gays and lesbians were not far behind.

“What are the reasons? It's difficult to say I think it's a mixture of newness, ignorance and there is prejudice - there's no doubt about that,” says Race Relations Commissioner Joris De Bres.



Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Discrimination-against-Asians-in-New-Zealand-grows/tabid/423/articleID/92200/Default.aspx#ixzz2HIV8t4vx\

WTF is a Race Relations Commissioner? :laugh: What do they do and why do you need them?

[Mister D]

"An honest look at New Zealand"


For anyone wanting to get a feel for good old grass root opinions and issues in New Zealand you can’t go far wrong by logging on to the community message boards at the NZ auction site Trademe.
This is a thread (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=222581&p=1)that was started on 22 March 2010 and has generated a heated debate on the site about racism and how difficult it is for people to be accepted into NZ culture if they look different, it’s not even a ‘cultural thing’ just an open hostility toward anyone who doesn’t look like they ‘fit in’
Here’s the opening post and taste of the responses it generated. At the bottom of the page are scores of comments left by our readers. We recommend that this page is read in conjunction with our Migrants Tales (http://emigratetonewzealand.wordpress.com/migrant-stories/) series to get an accurate picture of the many problems outsiders face in New Zealand.




http://emigratetonewzealand.wordpress.com/whats-it-like-to-live-in-nz/vox-pop/chapter-1/new-zealand-is-turning-into-a-really-racist-country/

:shocked:

[Peter1469]

And before you start wasting your (no doubt useless) time dredging up silly examples of intolerance, consider this:



And....your pet example of Kiwi intolerance:



They were a bunch of rightwing fascists who failed (you're rightwing, aren't you? So you will understand that.).

And here's the link you always so desperately screech for. Study it well.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10837572

Fascists are left wing...... They are Statists.

[Awryly]

OK.

I studied it! Thanks. :smiley_ROFLMAO:BTW, noddy, that sort of group doesn't "get off the ground" in Europe either which tells us precisely nothing about anti-immigrant attitudes since the public is still overwhelmingly against migration.




Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Discrimination-against-Asians-in-New-Zealand-grows/tabid/423/articleID/92200/Default.aspx#ixzz2HIV8t4vx\

WTF is a Race Relations Commissioner? :laugh: What do they do and why do you need them?

Pity you can't figure out the obvious, isn't it, D-?

If you ask any group of people, whether they are Asians, old people, lawyers or circus clowns, how they feel they are perceived, you will get the same result.

"Aw, some people don't like us".

And often that is because the individuals in question are unlikeable. Not because they belong to a particular group.

The methodology is self-prophesying crap.

The opinions you have dredged up are worth little. The surveys and research in the article I put up represent far more robust answers to questions of racial discrimination.

As for de Boris, he is an escapee from South Africa who someone, for some very odd reason, decided to plant in a government job where he could make the dopey pronouncements for which he is renowned on the state of NZ's race relations. He is a laughing stock.

Just like you.

[Mister D]

The opinions you have dredged up, as well as your own wishful thinking, are worth little. Bam! Right back atcha! :smiley_ROFLMAO:I saw you trying to think of a response earlier today. Next time, just acknowledge defeat and scamper off. Migration is causing problems in your country. You aren't unique in that regard so don't feel bad. :smiley:

So you don't need a Race Relations Commissioner but apparently people can just waltz into your country and have state offices created for themselves. :laugh: Understood. Maybe then NZ is the laughing stock?

[Mister D]

And yes, we keep statistics based on ethnicity. Which tell us for example that Maori (who are 15% of the population) are responsible for over 50% of the crime, are chronic under-achievers in education, make up 50-60% of our prison population and are disproportionately represented in welfare support statistics. Pacific Islanders are much the same.

But they have all the same rights. They just misuse them.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...l=1#post209511 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9767-Next-to-Ban-Ki-Moon-this-guy-must-be-the-most-platitudinous-prat-on-the-planet?p=209511&viewfull=1#post209511)

Then there's this. :roflmao:

You may as well have said this:


You guys in the US are a bunch of racists. Our niggers are just dumb and predisposed to crime.

[Awryly]

Fascists are left wing...... They are Statists.

In some things, yes.

In what matters, like a totalitarian state, they are right up there with your rightwing.

[zelmo1234]

Hint!

Obama has inacted more opressive regulations on the American people thatn any other Preisdent?

He also happens to be the most left wing president we have ever had?

Plus that idiot Boehner that is leading the house is a moderate?

Someone has mis informed you

[Awryly]

Hint!

Obama has inacted more opressive regulations on the American people thatn any other Preisdent?

He also happens to be the most left wing president we have ever had?

Plus that idiot Boehner that is leading the house is a moderate?

Someone has mis informed you

I know you have tried hard. But I am confused about what you want me to be misinformed about.

[Carygrant]

I feel that there is a lot of good in Elmo once he distances himself from the Hilly Billy element .
Might I suggest ( hardly a new thought) that , in the short term , all Developed Nation governments will move to the right simply to provide the means to keep the rioting middle and working classes in their places .
That the need to control the electorate will far exceed other needs -- let alone those involved in acting with justice and compassion for those without enough money and basic resources to live a dignified life .
Whether this inevitable shift ( imho) stops short of outright (!) Fascism will be interesting to watch .
I doubt it .

[Awryly]

I feel that there is a lot of good in Elmo once he distances himself from the Hilly Billy element .
Might I suggest ( hardly a new thought) that , in the short term , all Developed Nation governments will move to the right simply to provide the means to keep the rioting middle and working classes in their places .
That the need to control the electorate will far exceed other needs -- let alone those involved in acting with justice and compassion for those without enough money and basic resources to live a dignified life .
Whether this inevitable shift ( imho) stops short of outright (!) Fascism will be interesting to watch .
I doubt it .

It's true he seems less inclined to go into a conversation waving an automatic weapon.

What if we don't have a rioting middle class? The CIA would normally invent one but we have no CIA either.

Would an especially vigorous haka do?

[zelmo1234]

You already had rioting in the streets? In our country at least?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/riot-gear-and-bonfires-occupy-oakland-degenerates-into-chaos-overnight/

And You are exactly correct when our country hits the point of insolvency, which with our current governernment of big spenders and spineless opposition, we are not addressing our problems.

So when we hit insolvency which will be in the next decade at the very longest, and all the social safty net is gone, tax structure looks more like it does is Your countries with around 80% paying into the system, the economic devistation will be dramatic.

The Republicans will jump on there high horse and say I told you so, though much of the blame will rest with them for not opposing the spending, and the Democrats will blame the Rich which will be a lot fewer by then, because they did not let the government tax them it to poverty!

They are absolutly hoping for riots and the fundamental change of the United States! Change to what is to be decided by the winner of that time period.

There are three possibilities as I see it, If the Conservative movement prevails you will have a America that looks much more like the America of the 1950's with very little federal government control and a very small social safty net, Religious persicution by the government will end and by the sweat of your prow you will earn you keep.

It the Liberal movment prevails we will end up with a country where we look much like modern day Russia or China, The standard of living will be much lower than it is today, but through confiscation of the wealth, and possible illimination of those groups, there will be much less disparity between the classes and the govenemnt will ahve it's hand in both.

the Third would be a split nation and another civil war ending in two countries, much like Germany after WWII.

All are terrible outcomes, and many nations in europe will most likely be our guide to how things will turn out! AS the USA will start to turn inward as the crisis nears, causing real financial trouble in the economies of our trading partners. Many of them are not able to withstand the loss of GDP that will arise from that!

[Carygrant]

Perhaps this year might bring the US middle class out in riot mode .
A huge change in inflation direction and then quick upward movement looks certain from around the middle of the year -- could be earlier . Centered around increased food prices possibly plus the long awaited move of gas prices from their broadly recent plateau position.
Throw in any untoward factors --- like war with Iran and further EU financial eruptions ( Italy and France are clear favourites) and we could have a different kind of Bonfire of the Vanities .

[Carygrant]

They are absolutly hoping for riots and the fundamental change of the United States! Change to what is to be decided by the winner of that time period.

!

I have taken this one sentence out of your post because the balance is largely dependent upon initial "rioting" --- the consequences are difficult to forecast and you cite at least three distinct possibilities .
I believe there are many more than three distinct possibilities but I take issue with your initial forecast of the scenario .
Namely . Reps might think they are favoured by such an outcome . My point is that Obama has been aware of it for a considerable time and has already taken many of the steps necessary to pre- empt it .
It is frankly unbelievable that senior Govt persons have not seen what we as lay people realise is inevitable . America is bankrupt and is only able to continue stumbling from month to month because of its privileged position of being able to print its own imaginary pretend money , which , hitherto , notional lenders have been stupid to accept as debt repayment promises that will be kept .
The world is presently in the process of admitting the lunacy of this never land and is desperately trying to distance itself from the American dollar as fast as possible .
Add this to the mix and everything is gearing itself up to blow . And one day another big Bank will go under ad the Historical tilting moment will have arrived . Then it will be just like a Tsunami . The whole system will collapse as a deck of cards .

[Awryly]

Perhaps this year might bring the US middle class out in riot mode .
A huge change in inflation direction and then quick upward movement looks certain from around the middle of the year -- could be earlier . Centered around increased food prices possibly plus the long awaited move of gas prices from their broadly recent plateau position.
Throw in any untoward factors --- like war with Iran and further EU financial eruptions ( Italy and France are clear favourites) and we could have a different kind of Bonfire of the Vanities .

Maybe. Most Americans, apart from the rich, have taken hits already without much of a ruckus. Average household incomes are already off by 30-40%. They seem to have more of a stomach for punishment than I would have thought.

Inflation will no doubt go up when the Fed, as it has signalled it is likely to do, stops pumping in the money. But the stomach will probably absorb it.

The piss-weak Frank-Dodd's financial legislation leaves them exposed to another big bank failure. But I'm sure there is much banging of heads in smoke-filled rooms to make sure that doesn't happen.

Their biggest risk is their Congress.

[Chris]

In some things, yes.

In what matters, like a totalitarian state, they are right up there with your rightwing.

In what matters, like socialist, totalitarian state, fascists are leftwing.


“The New Deal,” writes Jonah Goldberg, “was conceived at the climax of a worldwide fascist moment, a moment when socialists in many countries were increasingly becoming nationalists and nationalists could embrace nothing other than socialism.”

Many of Roosevelt's ideas and policies were entirely indistinguishable from the fascism of Mussolini. In fact, writes Goldberg, there were “many common features among New Deal liberalism, Italian Fascism, and German National Socialism, all of which shared many of the same historical and intellectual forebears.” Like American progressives, many Italian Fascist and German Nazi intellectuals championed a “middle” or “Third Way” between capitalism and socialism. Goldberg explains:
“The 'middle way' sounds moderate and un-radical. Its appeal is that it sounds unideological and freethinking. But philosophically the Third Way is not mere difference splitting; it is utopian and authoritarian. Its utopian aspect becomes manifest in its antagonism to the idea that politics is about trade-offs. The Third Wayer says that there are no false choices—'I refuse to accept that X should come at the expense of Y.' The Third Way holds that we can have capitalism and socialism, individual liberty and absolute unity.”

The German and American New Deals -- i.e., fascism and progressivism -- also shared the bedrock belief that the state should be permitted to do whatever it wished, so long as it was for “good reasons.” Chief among those "good reasons" was the idea that government's purpose was to protect the interests of "the forgotten man," on whose behalf both FDR and Hitler were proficient at projecting deep concern.

@ THE PROGRESSIVE ERA'S LEGACY: FDR'S NEW DEAL (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1228)


The Nazi press enthusiastically hailed the early New Deal measures: America, like the Reich, had decisively broken with the "uninhibited frenzy of market speculation." The Nazi Party newspaper, the Völkischer Beobachter, "stressed 'Roosevelt's adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies,' praising the president's style of leadership as being compatible Hitler's own dictatorial Führerprinzip." (p.190)

Nor was Hitler himself lacking in praise for his American counterpart. He "told American ambassador William Dodd that he was 'in accord with the President in the view that the virtue of duty, readiness for sacrifice, and discipline should dominate the entire people. These moral demands which the President places before every individual citizen of the United States are also the quintessence of the German state philosophy, which finds its expression in the slogan "The Public Weal Transcends the Interest of the Individual." (pp.19-20) A New Order in both countries had replaced an antiquated emphasis on rights.

Mussolini, who did not allow his work as dictator to interrupt his prolific journalism, wrote a glowing review of Roosevelt's Looking Forward. He found "reminiscent of fascism. . .the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices"; and, in another review, this time of Henry Wallace's New Frontiers, Il Duce found the Secretary of Agriculture's program similar to his own corporativism. (pp.23-24)

Roosevelt never had much use for Hitler, but Mussolini was another matter. "'I don't mind telling you in confidence,' FDR remarked to a White House correspondent, 'that I am keeping in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman.'"(p.31). Rexford Tugwell, a leading adviser to the president, had difficulty containing his enthusiasm for Mussolini's program to modernize Italy: "It's the cleanest. . .most efficiently operating piece of social machinery I've ever seen. It makes me envious."(p.32, quoting Tugwell)

@ Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt: What FDR had in common with them (http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/hitler-mussolini-roosevelt-what-fdr-had-in-common-with-them/blog-154753/)

Like cigar said in another thread, you forgot deny, deny, deny.

[Chris]

I have taken this one sentence out of your post because the balance is largely dependent upon initial "rioting" --- the consequences are difficult to forecast and you cite at least three distinct possibilities .
I believe there are many more than three distinct possibilities but I take issue with your initial forecast of the scenario .
Namely . Reps might think they are favoured by such an outcome . My point is that Obama has been aware of it for a considerable time and has already taken many of the steps necessary to pre- empt it .
It is frankly unbelievable that senior Govt persons have not seen what we as lay people realise is inevitable . America is bankrupt and is only able to continue stumbling from month to month because of its privileged position of being able to print its own imaginary pretend money , which , hitherto , notional lenders have been stupid to accept as debt repayment promises that will be kept .
The world is presently in the process of admitting the lunacy of this never land and is desperately trying to distance itself from the American dollar as fast as possible .
Add this to the mix and everything is gearing itself up to blow . And one day another big Bank will go under ad the Historical tilting moment will have arrived . Then it will be just like a Tsunami . The whole system will collapse as a deck of cards .

The rest of the world is on the same brink of economic collapse, especially Europe.

[Chris]

Maybe. Most Americans, apart from the rich, have taken hits already without much of a ruckus. Average household incomes are already off by 30-40%. They seem to have more of a stomach for punishment than I would have thought.

Inflation will no doubt go up when the Fed, as it has signalled it is likely to do, stops pumping in the money. But the stomach will probably absorb it.

The piss-weak Frank-Dodd's financial legislation leaves them exposed to another big bank failure. But I'm sure there is much banging of heads in smoke-filled rooms to make sure that doesn't happen.

Their biggest risk is their Congress.


The piss-weak Frank-Dodd's financial legislation leaves them exposed to another big bank failure.

You must be peaking at my posts for I see you have finally caught on the the heart of the financial crisis was government failure.

Oddly, however, you continue to champion the very thing that caused the problems, big government and over-dependence on it. Central planning cannot work.

[Carygrant]

Chris stuck in and with labels again ----- a classic sign of the anal personality as described by the great Fred . Not U , he said to his once great friend , Jung . "Et U Brute " as he replied , to further layer the wit .
Have you the faintest idea what I am saying Chris ? Ever smiling and chilled out , Chris !!
There are many sorts of "Fascist "definition which I am sure you could find in your greatest companion , Wiki . They are all politically extreme and the consensus is that they are right wing ends of the spectrum , despite your hours spent doodling trying to find support for an opposite view . The other end is , Communism ( or misapplied Socialism )
One clue to helping you understand your difficulty to label correctly is to look at policy similarities and forget where they happened and who headed up the movement . Perhaps you unconsciously saw how close your own core views are essentially to Fascism and found a means to deny that by casting the thought of Fascism as far away as possible ---- to the other end of the spectrum to help you feel safe and comfortable .
A bit like being a Troll . Call everybody else one , to distract them from noticing you .

Chris as a Fascist being defined as as left winger would destroy the last vestiges of self worth . ROFL .

[Chris]

Chris stuck in and with labels again ----- a classic sign of the anal personality as described by the great Fred . Not U , he said to his once great friend , Jung . "Et U Brute " as he replied , to further layer the wit .
Have you the faintest idea what I am saying Chris ? Ever smiling and chilled out , Chris !!
There are many sorts of "Fascist "definition which I am sure you could find in your greatest companion , Wiki . They are all politically extreme and the consensus is that they are right wing ends of the spectrum , despite your hours spent doodling trying to find support for an opposite view . The other end is , Communism ( or misapplied Socialism )
One clue to helping you understand your difficulty to label correctly is to look at policy similarities and forget where they happened and who headed up the movement . Perhaps you unconsciously saw how close your own core views are essentially to Fascism and found a means to deny that by casting the thought of Fascism as far away as possible ---- to the other end of the spectrum to help you feel safe and comfortable .
A bit like being a Troll . Call everybody else one , to distract them from noticing you .

Chris as a Fascist being defined as as left winger would destroy the last vestiges of self worth . ROFL .

More made up nonsense.

Remember, cary, you're the one who said he has no interest in contributing to this forum. Why else post other than to troll?


Your words: "It hasn't dawned on you that it bothers me not a jot whether I am a contributor here or not ." @ http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8049-Advice-on-Dealing-with-Trolling?p=211889&viewfull=1#post211889

[Carygrant]

More made up nonsense.

Remember, cary, you're the one who said he has no interest in contributing to this forum. Why else post other than to troll?

Your words: "It hasn't dawned on you that it bothers me not a jot whether I am a contributor here or not .


I am pleased my post was positively received . But it was rather difficult for you to disagree with it , as you showed us .

As for the reference . If you cannot work out the clear meaning of the sentence you quoted , your level of General Comprehension is even worse than I thought . And represents a major communication problem for you .
A contributor is someone who is part of a group but probably not a paying member . It is a neutral noun and does not in itself tell you anything about the type , weight or direction of comment .
Ergo, you are Trolling again .

[Chris]

I am pleased my post was positively received . But it was rather difficult for you to disagree with it , as you showed us .

As for the reference . If you cannot work out the clear meaning of the sentence you quoted , your level of General Comprehension is even worse than I thought . And represents a major communication problem for you .
A contributor is someone who is part of a group but probably not a paying member . It is a neutral noun and does not in itself tell you anything about the type , weight or direction of comment .
Ergo, you are Trolling again .

More nonsense.

Remember, cary, you're the one who said he has no interest in contributing to this forum. Your words: "It hasn't dawned on you that it bothers me not a jot whether I am a contributor here or not ."

Why else post other than to troll?

[Carygrant]

The rest of the world is on the same brink of economic collapse, especially Europe.


Unfortunately that is not what was being discussed . Nor does the general scenario that you oddly introduced have any direct relevance to the specific US scenario I was outlining .
Once more a lack of General Comprehension . However , I suspect you were not deliberately Trolling .

[zelmo1234]

Maybe. Most Americans, apart from the rich, have taken hits already without much of a ruckus. Average household incomes are already off by 30-40%. They seem to have more of a stomach for punishment than I would have thought.

Inflation will no doubt go up when the Fed, as it has signalled it is likely to do, stops pumping in the money. But the stomach will probably absorb it.

The piss-weak Frank-Dodd's financial legislation leaves them exposed to another big bank failure. But I'm sure there is much banging of heads in smoke-filled rooms to make sure that doesn't happen.

Their biggest risk is their Congress.

Why do you feel the need to make up stuff? Are you a drama queen or somthing.

Middle class Americans have lost there wealth, because obama will not create a growing economy so there homes are worth a third less that what they were!

But Income has dropped about 5K per year

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/26/household-income-down-82-percent-since-obama-took-office-study-shows/

Or a little over 8% And of course it is still almost double that of your country, and our dollar has greater buying power?

You actually could have made the same statement with the facts, and people might see your point, but the lie ruins you argument!

[Awryly]

Why do you feel the need to make up stuff? Are you a drama queen or somthing.

Middle class Americans have lost there wealth, because obama will not create a growing economy so there homes are worth a third less that what they were!

But Income has dropped about 5K per year

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/26/household-income-down-82-percent-since-obama-took-office-study-shows/

Or a little over 8% And of course it is still almost double that of your country, and our dollar has greater buying power?

You actually could have made the same statement with the facts, and people might see your point, but the lie ruins you argument!

So I saw income when I meant wealth.


WASHINGTON — The typical American family lost nearly 40% of its wealth from 2007 to 2010 as the Great Recession reduced household net worth to a level not seen since the early 1990s.
The net worth of the median U.S. family — one with an equal number of families richer and poorer — fell to $77,300 in 2010 from $126,400 three years earlier, after adjusting for inflation, the Federal Reserve said in a new report Monday.






But what is far more interesting is the mentality of people like you who immediately leap to "Lies! Lies! Lies!" when it was simply a mistake. Are you a spokesperson for the NRA?

It seems you are so much under siege, so consumed by paranoia, so fearful of being wrong yourselves that you over-react as though I personally ordered 9/11. But I guess that is what these websites are for. Shrinks would consider them valid research tools.

I saw this phenomenon last night on Piers Morgan. Alex Jones is an outfront winner of the conservative you-are-driving-us nuts syndrome. And it showed how mentally disturbed these people can become. He also owns 50 guns - but that's another, depressing, but interesting story.

[zelmo1234]

Wealth is down, because of Obama, not GWB though he was an idiot too

And now I am as crazy as the guy with piers last night the one that was desigened to make gun owners look like idiots?

Remember I am not crazy enough to be denied a gun in your country, and I am the one that would not mind a little tougher background checks?

But then we know that you do not make us stuff! So I guess I am an nut job like that idiot last night!

[Awryly]

As an after-thought a propos the matter of US standards of living, you are about to be hit by a round of inflation that will test your intestinal fortitude. Reality has a nasty habit of being right.

You have been living well beyond your means for decades. It's payback time. Or, as Confucius would say "He who drinks from leaky trough will have little left to drink".

Confucius was good like that.

[Chris]

Unfortunately that is not what was being discussed . Nor does the general scenario that you oddly introduced have any direct relevance to the specific US scenario I was outlining .
Once more a lack of General Comprehension . However , I suspect you were not deliberately Trolling .

Blah blah blah.

Remember, cary, you're the one who said he has no interest in contributing to this forum. Your words: "It hasn't dawned on you that it bothers me not a jot whether I am a contributor here or not ."

Why else post other than to troll?

[Chris]

As an after-thought a propos the matter of US standards of living, you are about to be hit by a round of inflation that will test your intestinal fortitude. Reality has a nasty habit of being right.

You have been living well beyond your means for decades. It's payback time. Or, as Confucius would say "He who drinks from leaky trough will have little left to drink".

Confucius was good like that.

Living large on the same economism you embrace.

[Awryly]

Wealth is down, because of Obama, not GWB though he was an idiot too

And now I am as crazy as the guy with piers last night the one that was desigened to make gun owners look like idiots?

Remember I am not crazy enough to be denied a gun in your country, and I am the one that would not mind a little tougher background checks?

But then we know that you do not make us stuff! So I guess I am an nut job like that idiot last night!

Alex Jones is a radio host. He has taken host-age millions of Americans who think like he does.

Are you one of them?

Frankly, with people like that free as a birdie and armed to the teeth out in society, you are in trouble I can only barely imagine.

And you think Iran's mad mullahs are the problem?

[Peter1469]

In some things, yes.

In what matters, like a totalitarian state, they are right up there with your rightwing.

Our right wing wants less government, not more (I don't count the religious right).

[Mister D]

In some things, yes.

In what matters, like a totalitarian state, they are right up there with your rightwing.

This has to be one of your most confused comments ever.

[Mister D]

So now totalitarianism joins fascism and racism in meaninglessness.

[Awryly]

The natives beat furiously their drums.

Unheard.

[zelmo1234]

Alex Jones is a radio host. He has taken host-age millions of Americans who think like he does.

Are you one of them?

Frankly, with people like that free as a birdie and armed to the teeth out in society, you are in trouble I can only barely imagine.

And you think Iran's mad mullahs are the problem?

Well he may have a radio show, but you have witnessed what I think about peopel that talk tuff, they are generally the people that run when this get real!

No he does not speak for me. But we would be in a lot more trouble if they take our arms away. People around the world do not understand that it is not as easy as going door to door and asking for weapons. I agree with hsi point that taking the guns away, will not reduce violence, as we have some real modernday examples, Your neighbors in Austrailia and the UK both disarmed and now rank 1 and 2 in violent crime?

Now for the interview, If he wanted a conversation that civil and was a debate why did he not bring in the head of the NRA or Serria Club, how about a trainier From gunsite or Blackwater. Some one that wants to ahve a debate and not scream and rant.

Even Sherriff Joe would have been better, this idiot!

[Awryly]

Our right wing wants less government, not more (I don't count the religious right).

The quantum is immaterial.

What is, is who controls it.

[Chris]

The problem here is awryly's flat earth politics.

Expand to 2 dimensions....

http://i.snag.gy/3luRy.jpg

[Chris]

The quantum is immaterial.

What is, is who controls it.

And now he wants to escape into quatum mechanics.

http://i.snag.gy/jEbeZ.jpg

[Awryly]

Well he may have a radio show, but you have witnessed what I think about peopel that talk tuff, they are generally the people that run when this get real!

No he does not speak for me. But we would be in a lot more trouble if they take our arms away. People around the world do not understand that it is not as easy as going door to door and asking for weapons. I agree with hsi point that taking the guns away, will not reduce violence, as we have some real modernday examples, Your neighbors in Austrailia and the UK both disarmed and now rank 1 and 2 in violent crime?

Cherry-picking again? Britain certainly has a high crime rate. But France and other European countries with gun control don't. And you are forgetting these countries do not count crimes the same way. The US is especially infamous for designing definitions that under-count its crime figures. And, no doubt, for having many not even reported, especially among the lower classes who have no confidence in the police.

You are saying nothing about gun control. NZ has heavy gun control and rates far lower in violent crime statistics than the US. About 80% lower. There are few shootings and fewer violent crimes. The two are not connected.

The only valid point would be that there are societal factors in play in Britain that produce violent crime more so than elsewhere. And you are light years from making that point.
http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/what-country-has-most-violent-crime.html


Now for the interview, If he wanted a conversation that civil and was a debate why did he not bring in the head of the NRA or Serria Club, how about a trainier From gunsite or Blackwater. Some one that wants to ahve a debate and not scream and rant.

Even Sherriff Joe would have been better, this idiot!

Sheriff Joe was there too, and was just as mad (as in "crazy"). He's arming everyone on his force - all 3000+ of them - with military weapons. Let's hope the bystander death toll is not too high.

Lower, perhaps, than the 9 shot by police with only handguns at the Empire State.

[Chris]

NZ has heavy gun control and rates far lower in violent crime statistics than the US. About 80% lower.

Not true according to New Zealand compared to USA violent crime (http://www.courts.govt.nz/publications/publications-archived/2000/international-comparisons-of-recorded-violent-crime-rates-for-2000/new-zealand-compared-to-usa-violent-crime) based on a NZ Ministry of Justice study which warns: "Caution must still be taken in comparing the statistics between countries, as there are significant differences in the criminal systems and offense definitions in the two jurisdictions."

But you are correct that there is no causal connection between your high gun control and rates of violence. If there were the fact the US is seeing higher rated of gun ownership but lower rates of violent crime would counter that.

[Mister D]

The US is especially infamous for designing definitions that under-count its crime figures.

Is it now? :grin:

[Peter1469]

The quantum is immaterial.

What is, is who controls it.

The religious right has never held national power in the US. They are laughed at to their faces by those in power.

[Awryly]

The religious right has never held national power in the US. They are laughed at to their faces by those in power.

I am not talking about the religious right. The power holders rightfully laugh at them behind closed doors but, in the open, seek their votes like thirsty vampires.

I am talking about the people whose money rules you.

[Peter1469]

I am not talking about the religious right. The power holders rightfully laugh at them behind closed doors but, in the open, seek their votes like thirsty vampires.

I am talking about the people whose money rules you.

Then you aren't talking about the right.

[Awryly]

Then you aren't talking about the right.

So the people who actually rule you are leftwing?

[Peter1469]

So the people who actually rule you are leftwing?

Yes. As those terms apply in modern US politics.

[Peter1469]

Any advances on poutine from the North American continent that might improve out Antipodean lives?

Not my thing. I have had some good beef tartar in Montreal.

[Peter1469]

The quantum is immaterial.

What is, is who controls it.

If you are moving off into one world government theories, those would be Statists- clearly on the left.

[Awryly]

If you are moving off into one world government theories, those would be Statists- clearly on the left.

The Koch brothers will be surprised.

[Peter1469]

The Koch brothers will be surprised.

They want less government, not more government.

[Awryly]

They want less government, not more government.

So did Hitler, as I recollect.

Or if he wanted more, he also wanted him to have it.

[Peter1469]

So did Hitler, as I recollect.


Backwards. Hitler wanted more government. He was a leftist. A Statist. Seig Heil.

[Awryly]

Backwards. Hitler wanted more government. He was a leftist. A Statist. Seig Heil.

Read full post.

The issue is not about big or small government. It's about who runs it.

[Peter1469]

Read full post.

The issue is not about big or small government. It's about who runs it.

I thought that I read all of the links offered in this thread. Direct me to the one you are thinking of.

[Awryly]

I thought that I read all of the links offered in this thread. Direct me to the one you are thinking of.

#195

[Chris]

They want less government, not more government.


So did Hitler, as I recollect.

Or if he wanted more, he also wanted him to have it.


Hitler wanted less government.... :f_doh:

[zelmo1234]

Cherry-picking again? Britain certainly has a high crime rate. But France and other European countries with gun control don't. And you are forgetting these countries do not count crimes the same way. The US is especially infamous for designing definitions that under-count its crime figures. And, no doubt, for having many not even reported, especially among the lower classes who have no confidence in the police.

You are saying nothing about gun control. NZ has heavy gun control and rates far lower in violent crime statistics than the US. About 80% lower. There are few shootings and fewer violent crimes. The two are not connected.

The only valid point would be that there are societal factors in play in Britain that produce violent crime more so than elsewhere. And you are light years from making that point.
http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/what-country-has-most-violent-crime.html



Sheriff Joe was there too, and was just as mad (as in "crazy"). He's arming everyone on his force - all 3000+ of them - with military weapons. Let's hope the bystander death toll is not too high.

Lower, perhaps, than the 9 shot by police with only handguns at the Empire State.


Did you look at your link?

France and all of the other Countries of europe are right on your wall of shame?

All Above the USA, and of course you have no proof that the USA does not report violent crime, because se in fact do have a good reporting system.

Canasa has similar gun control to Austrailia, and they are above the USA when it comes to violent crime per 100 thousand people.

You look at the high number of crimes? and you don't realize that the USA has 4 to 8 times the population when compared to these countries.

And we have already looked at NZ gun policies which are very sound, but they do not ban anything, they rely on backgroud checks and mental health screening and safty and use training? These are great policies.

Austrailia on the other hand went the rout of europe and ban guns and confiscated them from the public and how did that work out? Well they are the only country in the world that ranks higher than the UK in violent crime?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html

Now it is possible that you do not make the list as they are talking about the wealty nations of the world, but anywal thanks for posting a link that proves my point.

[Awryly]

I am tiring of trying to deal with your ignorance. The US counts crime in ways that reduce its crime count.


Counting rules

Counting rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Relatively few standards exist and none that permit international comparability beyond a very limited range of offences. However, many jurisdictions accept the following:


There must be a prima facie case that an offence has been committed before it is recorded. That is either police find evidence of an offence or receive a believable allegation of an offense being committed. Some jurisdictions count offending only when certain processes happen, such as an arrest is made, ticket issued, charges laid in Court or only upon securing a conviction.
Multiple reports of the same offence usually count as one offence. Some jurisdictions count each report separately, others count each victim of offending separately.
Where several offences are committed at the same time, in one act of offending, only the most serious offense is counted. Some jurisdictions record and count each and every offense separately, others count cases, or offenders, that can be prosecuted.
Where multiple offenders are involved in the same act of offending only one act is counted when counting offenses but each offender is counted when apprehended.
Offending is counted at the time it comes to the attention of a law enforcement officer. Some jurisdictions record and count offending at the time it occurs.

Offending that is a breach of the law but for which no punishment exists is often not counted. For example: Suicide, which is technically illegal in most countries, may not be counted as a crime, although attempted suicide and assisting suicide are.
Also traffic offending and other minor offending that might be dealt with by using fines, rather than imprisonment, is often not counted as crime. However separate statistics may be kept for this sort of offending.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_statistics

As the article said plainly, the UK counts as crimes stuff the US does not.


criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured. New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today

In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz2HSaW1vw1
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

NZ counts every offence that is committed by an individual, not just the most serious one - as you do in the US. Our rate is on a par with Australia - about 100 offences per 100k.


if a criminal assaulted someone, then kidnapped them, stole their car, raped and murdered them, the crime would be counted as one crime - a murder.

In New Zealand the crime would count as one assault, one kidnap, one car theft, one rape and one murder. In other words the same crime can look much worse when it’s fed into New Zealand’s crime statistics than it would in many overseas statistics.



It is becoming more difficult and pointless dealing with your sloppy research and even sloppier thinking.

I may have to consider whether I should bother.

[Carygrant]

It is becoming more difficult and pointless dealing with your sloppy research and even sloppier thinking.



It is a waste of time . Discussions in this area and multi-.culturism are seen as attacks on their whole world view . These areas are bedrock support for their extremist mind set .
Whether they do it deliberately or not , they use data on a highly selective basis , grossly simplify matters and cannot see that the whole matter of how incidents are reported in the first place , affects the data unacceptably .
Because we live in such a comparatively free , open and transparent culture and society , we over report .Both the public and police .
Conversely , others under report -- people have less confidence in their criminal and justice systems and cultures , and other countries and systems are more fraudulent and corrupt .
Far too complex for this type and level of discourse .
And of course , most of the more extreme commentators have not travelled extensively ( if at all ) and just don't realise how absurd some of their positions really are .
A classic and very recent example was with Piers Morgan and bumpkin Alex Jones . The Jones clown had no idea that UK gun murders were 35 compared to a US figure of over 11,000. Like some noodles here, and realising that his case had collapsed , Jones the Motor Mouth wanted to then include murders from other means to somehow improve his position .
It's not possible to deal with people like that in any sensible way .

[zelmo1234]

Oh! my God!

You just posted you links to how we report crime differently, that either a claim has to be filed or the police have to find evidence of a crime commited?

YES! there must be evidence of a crime, we are inocent in this country until proven guilty.

Then we get the Cary coming in on his high horse from the UK which only had 35 gun murders, but you actually have a better chance of being murdered in his violent country than in the USA, they just stab you or baet you wilth a club. That means you are still dead by the way.

And then after posting fact that support my position, you say that you may have to reconsider weather it is worth your time. YES if you are arguing a position that is opposite of mine, and you keep posting facts taht support my position, it is a waste of time on your part.

but lets get down to the brass tacks. You both hate or more likely are jealous of the American live style.

NZ has an average income of a person on unemployment insurance in the USA, when you adjust for the greater value of the dollar.

Your GDP is that of a large American State. You brag about the food that you send to China and how Important you are to them and the mid west state in America send more Food to China than you country. plus we send them coal to provide for there economic needs.

The truth is you country is realitivly insignificant in the economy of the world. Sorry but you just are not big enough yet! But you are trying and for that I give you credit.

Cary, on the other hand has real hate issues and in my short tiem here has been caught making up some terrible lies about people. He talks about the civility of his nation? Truth is among the wealthy nations they are the 2nd most violent, He will not responde to any facts, which is very typical of liberals. And his hate of America, is open and toxic most likely becasue most of the world considers the UK to be Americas little puppy dog.


You both try and give credit to Obama for job creation, and improvement in the economy and improving our healthcare, which people from Canada and the UK come here all the time becasue they can not get the care in their country.

Adn the Fact show that he hs yet to add one job to the economy and his Obamacare plan is not only going to bankrupt our country, but will double the price of insurence, and lead to rationing and healthcare shortages.


All these things have been backed you with documentation from his own government agencies, and you keep supporting the position that GWB and his tax cuts were the problem.

Yes! America is in real trouble, but it has nothing to do with the rich no being taxed enough, our governemnt has a spending problem that they will not address, Yes we have a violence problem but unless we want to knock Australia off the top of the list of violent countries, we had better not do what they did and ban guns, becasue the most violent citeis in this country have the toughest gun laws.

So please unless you can actually post something that supports your position, do stop trying it is hurting your case!




Then you post a statement that says that NZ and the USA have about the same violent crime rate?

[Awryly]

Oh! my God!

You just posted you links to how we report crime differently, that either a claim has to be filed or the police have to find evidence of a crime commited?

YES! there must be evidence of a crime, we are inocent in this country until proven guilty.

Then we get the Cary coming in on his high horse from the UK which only had 35 gun murders, but you actually have a better chance of being murdered in his violent country than in the USA, they just stab you or baet you wilth a club. That means you are still dead by the way.

And then after posting fact that support my position, you say that you may have to reconsider weather it is worth your time. YES if you are arguing a position that is opposite of mine, and you keep posting facts taht support my position, it is a waste of time on your part.

but lets get down to the brass tacks. You both hate or more likely are jealous of the American live style.

NZ has an average income of a person on unemployment insurance in the USA, when you adjust for the greater value of the dollar.

Your GDP is that of a large American State. You brag about the food that you send to China and how Important you are to them and the mid west state in America send more Food to China than you country. plus we send them coal to provide for there economic needs.

The truth is you country is realitivly insignificant in the economy of the world. Sorry but you just are not big enough yet! But you are trying and for that I give you credit.

Cary, on the other hand has real hate issues and in my short tiem here has been caught making up some terrible lies about people. He talks about the civility of his nation? Truth is among the wealthy nations they are the 2nd most violent, He will not responde to any facts, which is very typical of liberals. And his hate of America, is open and toxic most likely becasue most of the world considers the UK to be Americas little puppy dog.


You both try and give credit to Obama for job creation, and improvement in the economy and improving our healthcare, which people from Canada and the UK come here all the time becasue they can not get the care in their country.

Adn the Fact show that he hs yet to add one job to the economy and his Obamacare plan is not only going to bankrupt our country, but will double the price of insurence, and lead to rationing and healthcare shortages.


All these things have been backed you with documentation from his own government agencies, and you keep supporting the position that GWB and his tax cuts were the problem.

Yes! America is in real trouble, but it has nothing to do with the rich no being taxed enough, our governemnt has a spending problem that they will not address, Yes we have a violence problem but unless we want to knock Australia off the top of the list of violent countries, we had better not do what they did and ban guns, becasue the most violent citeis in this country have the toughest gun laws.

So please unless you can actually post something that supports your position, do stop trying it is hurting your case!




Then you post a statement that says that NZ and the USA have about the same violent crime rate?

Go back and try to read the post again. Try to comprehend what it's saying.

If you manage this, get back to me.

If you can't, don't bother.

[Awryly]

It is a waste of time . Discussions in this area and multi-.culturism are seen as attacks on their whole world view . These areas are bedrock support for their extremist mind set .
Whether they do it deliberately or not , they use data on a highly selective basis , grossly simplify matters and cannot see that the whole matter of how incidents are reported in the first place , affects the data unacceptably .
Because we live in such a comparatively free , open and transparent culture and society , we over report .Both the public and police .
Conversely , others under report -- people have less confidence in their criminal and justice systems and cultures , and other countries and systems are more fraudulent and corrupt .
Far too complex for this type and level of discourse .
And of course , most of the more extreme commentators have not travelled extensively ( if at all ) and just don't realise how absurd some of their positions really are .
A classic and very recent example was with Piers Morgan and bumpkin Alex Jones . The Jones clown had no idea that UK gun murders were 35 compared to a US figure of over 11,000. Like some noodles here, and realising that his case had collapsed , Jones the Motor Mouth wanted to then include murders from other means to somehow improve his position .
It's not possible to deal with people like that in any sensible way .

They have mindsets to protect that are coming more and more under pressure. That pressure induces psychotic episodes. You mentioned Alex Jones. A classic example of a collapse in rational thought. (God help me, that madman owns 50 guns.)

On counting crime. As you say, countries do it differently. The US is particularly bad at it; NZ is too good at - in the sense that every crime gets counted in a sequence of offending by the same person. I suspect the UK does something similar.

Which helps to explain, but only partly, its high crime rate. Alienated minorities, alienated youth?

[Carygrant]

You seem a very earnest young man and you make too many assumptions .
Tell me about these UK murders where guns have not been used . How many ?
Now let's look at the 11000 plus US Gun murders plus all other murders using other sorts of weapons .
See what a mess you are in ?
Also let us know the number of people badly injured by knives etc who would have probably died if a gun had been involved .
You are sinking .
Add all of this alongside the key" crime reporting " considerations I gave you , and then sensibly find a face saving way to back away .

As for personal matters . Given your newness , I will repeat what I have previously made very clear .
I have a marked disgust of America as a country or nation . I do believe that collectively you have gone rotten at a very deep level .I do believe you are the most dangerous species on the planet .
But if you believe that means I have no liking for individual Americans , you are mistaken . There are millions of American good people and some brilliant minds on an International basis . But collectively you are insular , dumbed down and morally way off course .
Having read my comments on the ways people report crimes and the way different systems record , you will see why I had no interest in discussing the matter further with someone whose mind is already set and therefore fixed .
There is no point , and , to be perfectly honest , I have heard it all so often , it leaves me blank with disbelief . It's like D talking his nonsense on multi-culturism , though I prefer privately to term it as issues surrounding modern prejudices as they affect modern slavery attempts by old white males .it's just totally beyond his experience and comprehension .
Regardless , I personally welcome your contributions , however much we might disagree most of the time .

[Awryly]

[QUOTE]There are millions of American good people and some brilliant minds on an International basis .

Could not agree more. Unhappily, they are not here. Or, if they are, do not speak.


But collectively you are insular , dumbed down and morally way off course .

And contact with the outside world gives them a view of themselves they have, at the same time, to resent and defend.

[zelmo1234]

Thanks Cary for your explanation!

In a earlier post I pointed out that ocording you your statistics and they were 2011 I beleive, you had a total of 642 homicides and only 35 by Gun

Now this did not count susicide? which our 11000+ number does count, I simply pointed out that using the murder statistic, we the USA still have a better chance of being killed in this country, but not my much!

I then went and looked a violenc crime statistic, in which you nations has become fair violent acording to your own statistics, this year you were the second violent of the wealthy nations! AW then told me that we are particually bad a counting crimes. I went to his link and it stated that in the USA either the victom had to file a complaint, or the law infocement had to find reasonable evidence that a crime was comitted. He then talked about the level of the crime, which would be 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, degree in sexual assult or Murder, and that newZealand couted each offense. this in not multipl offense in this country but the sevarity of the offense. He then state that I should read it again, an while I admit to not being the sharpest tack in the drawer, can not see where we are not counting crime.

Yes if someone is a victom of a crime and does not reprot it and the police do not get involved it would not become a statistic, I do not know how it could in any country

[zelmo1234]

Now to some things that we agree on!

In the USA our educational system is turning out idiots that are not only incapable of critical thought, but are not able to even count chage to make sure that they are not getting ripped off.

We have graduates that can't read, or do basic math, and yet the system pushes them through. It ahs all become about indoctrination and self esteem

We will no longer hold a child back if he is unable to preform the work at a basic level they feel this hurts his or her self esteem, the children that are not motivated, figure this our and take the easy way out as some are inclined to do. the is the path until the second half of there Senior year when they are told that they can not craduate with their classmates and they drop out.

Collage in this country has gone to an average of 5.5 years to get a 4 year degree because the collages have to teach even those that have achieved the scores need to get into higher education need remedial courses to bring them up to speed.

While I agree that all men and women are created equal, all lifstyles are not. And the tolerance training, which once was All men and women are created equally and you should not descriminate has gone into acceptance.

So while I was taught that if a person chose a differnt lifestyle that was their business and even if I did not agree with that lifestyle they were not to be persiduted for ther choice, but to be treated the same. Now it is that you must accept there lifestyle as normal, and that in many cases they deserve special attention. this is starting to create the intolerance that is being witnessed in our country.

Just as the refusal of the current Justice department to look into and prosicute some in the New Black Panthers for voter intimidation and for putting out a contract on Mr Zimmerman. this too is creating intolerance and in sme cases has brought back racism that we have fought against. ore than half of the educational system is designed toward this indoctrination instead of education. Yet those on the left in this country still maintain that we need more money for the system. Each public school recieves almost twice that of some of the best private school per child, yet they are unable to preform?

Now we may differ in the ways to correct this problem but for me it is not hard to see what we were doing when our educational system wa among the best in the world, as our institution of higher learning are. going back to what worked in the past does not seem to be to be a bad place to start.

Violence is in large part an inner city problem, where the government welfare system has become a way of life, and very few have the courage to break that chiain of dispare. becasue it is now in the 3rd and 4th generations in many cases it is the new normal, and is the most cruel thing that we have done to those in the inner cities, and weather we would like to face this or would prefer to sweep it under the table, is your choice but a large percentage of these people are and always have been minorities. We have a political party that needs this base to remain right where the are to keep there power structure in tact and it is sad, becasue this not only is a terrible way to live, but it breeds much of our gun violence and drug violence that leads to the rapes and assults. there is no hope becaseu there is not accountability. To break this cycle you must cut the cord to doing nothing, and make the system harder work than getting a job.

All the things that lead to the moral decline can be traced back to trying to be compasionate. but when compasion dooms one to a life of poverty and dispare, it is cruelty, not compassion

[zelmo1234]

Go back and try to read the post again. Try to comprehend what it's saying.

If you manage this, get back to me.

If you can't, don't bother.

I am truely sorry AW I went back and looked at you model and looked at the statistic that you linked to and they natch my statistic almost perfectly.

I am sure that I am missing something but I do not know what it is.

[Awryly]

I am truely sorry AW I went back and looked at you model and looked at the statistic that you linked to and they natch my statistic almost perfectly.

I am sure that I am missing something but I do not know what it is.

This puts what I was saying as clearly as anything could:


Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) (http://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/crimnet/ojsa/crimereporting/ucr.htm)
The majority of agencies in New York State use Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). UCR tallies offenses reported and arrests made by law enforcement each month. It requires that offenses be classified and only the most serious one in each crime incident be counted, or scored. UCR also collects information about property and weapons.

Incident-Based Reporting (IBR) (http://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/crimnet/ojsa/crimereporting/ibr.htm)
DCJS strongly encourages law enforcement to adopt or adapt their agency records management systems to generate IBR reports. IBR yields reports which provide more detail to police management and research staff than UCR reports. IBR collects and links offender and victim information, links specific arrests with specific crimes, counts all the offenses that occur in a single incident, and provides significant details, such as property taken and weapons used. DCJS staff works closely with law enforcement agencies to assist them in the transition from UCR to IBR.

http://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/crimnet/ojsa/crimereporting/index.htm

Most of your crime reporting is vastly different (though, as you can see, the DCJS is trying to get that changed) from the systems used in the UK and NZ.

Put simply, you vastly under-report.

[zelmo1234]

They have mindsets to protect that are coming more and more under pressure. That pressure induces psychotic episodes. You mentioned Alex Jones. A classic example of a collapse in rational thought. (God help me, that madman owns 50 guns.)

On counting crime. As you say, countries do it differently. The US is particularly bad at it; NZ is too good at - in the sense that every crime gets counted in a sequence of offending by the same person. I suspect the UK does something similar.

Which helps to explain, but only partly, its high crime rate. Alienated minorities, alienated youth?

While we can agree that this man is an idiot, with 50 guns, we can also agree that he has owned guns his entire life and has yet to comit a crime.

I really do not know how many guns that I own, but with my colection of civil war, revolutionary war, old west guns I am sure that there is near 50 in that alone. then I have a collection of Parker shotgun and several Holland & Holland shotguns, that I am sure Cary can tell you are among the finest guns ever produced. over 50 there too!

Then the hunting guns that I use and my guns that are still from time to time but were once my work guns, and the gun that I use to teach gun safty and basic defense classes with.

All are fully restored to new condition and fully functional and stored in a gun safe. And I have never gon on a shooting spree either.

But this does illistrate the problem with gun control in this country. While this idiot is an extrem example and was designed by Piers to make all gun owners look like raging idiots and scare the public. these people like myself have said NO! to baning law abiding people from owning guns.

there are million of guns on the street in the hands of law abiding citizens and unfortunalty there are hundreds of thousands in the hands of the criminal element. The only way to achive the low numbers of gun murders in the UK is to go and get the guns. This is not going to in this country, because of people that will not go alnog with it. while many that just have guns would turn them in, None of the Criminal element will, and those that enjoy the shooting sports have said NO!

So now you have to take these ginf from people millions of people that have never broken the law and are now willing to stand for there rights.

You do not have enough police officers to get the job done as most of them would not preform this task and eventually the ones that did would be killed unfortunatly. If you try and use the military, the gun owners would ban together to put up a fight, and now you would have nothing better than Stalins USSR or Mao's China where hundreds of thousdands of law abiding citiazens would be murdered by the military. and youwould loose about half of that in military personel as well.

So all of the legislation would be feel good legislation but would only create the gun free zones that are prome to these attacks, and look what it did in australia. they are the only wealthy nations that leads the UK in violent crime.

Does this make any sense.

Now if we were serious we could adopt your tactis of screening, and change our privacy laws when it comes to mental illness. and possible keep some of the mentally ill and by closing the private sale and gun show loophole prevent criminals from purcahsing a gun.

[zelmo1234]

This puts what I was saying as clearly as anything could:


http://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/crimnet/ojsa/crimereporting/index.htm

Most of your crime reporting is vastly different (though, as you can see, the DCJS is trying to get that changed) from the systems used in the UK and NZ.

Put simply, you vastly under-report.

AW you are using New York State, and they will do anything to lower there crime numbers, as they are skyrocketing again.

Not all areas of the country use the same. And statistically you might be correct, becasue for example a rape is an assult by nature. But the person would be charges with 1st degree sexual assult. Maybe in some countries is would be sexual assult and assult. so they would get 2 crimes one victom

But for example in this country if it was a sexual assult and domestic violence, then you would have 2 crimes not one. except for states like NY that have instituted tough laws on private citizens and have seen there violent crimes dramatically increase, like Australia, and will lie like a rug, rather than admit that there policies are not effective in lowering crime.

[zelmo1234]

Here is a fun filled fact for you. That you will never here from our friends in the gun ban lobby.

In those FBI gun homicide numbers are all of the justifiable homicides. (people that have legally defended themselves)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/05/stand-your-ground-gun-control-data

And while the number is small it does create a percentage problem. And as you can see as we allow more concealed carry, and castle doctrine and stand your ground laws, More of the bad guys are loosing.

Interviews with the most violent criminals in our prison systems show that the number one fear that they had, was not the police, but running into and armed citizen. We know from crime numbers that areas with very low gun restrictions and high rates of concel carry and gun ownership are among the safest in the country, and areas with No conceal carry and very strong gun laws are among the most dangerous.

All this said I stll beleive that we can make the reporting of possible nental illness to the FBI by councilers and therapists mandatory, and regulatied, and we can close the private sale and gun show loopholes and this will in fact keep some of the guns out of the criminal element.

[Awryly]

AW you are using New York State, and they will do anything to lower there crime numbers, as they are skyrocketing again.

Not all areas of the country use the same.

Really? Then you had better tell the FBI.


The Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) are official data on crime in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States), published by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation) (FBI). UCR is a "a nationwide, cooperative statistical effort of nearly 18,000 city, university and college, county, state, tribal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_recognized_tribes), and federal law enforcement agencies voluntarily reporting data on crimes brought to their attention."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Crime_Reports#cite_note-2)
Crime statistics are compiled from UCR data and published annually by the FBI in the Crime in the United States series.
The FBI does not collect the data itself. Rather, law enforcement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States) agencies across the United States provide the data to the FBI, which then compiles the Reports.



And apparently some states do not even bother to report in full.
Also, not all states require municipalities to report data, making the crime statistics under-reported in UCR reports.


So, not only do these reports not fully report crime in a methodological sense, they are also ignored altogether if a state just feels like it.

Now, for your next piece of BS?

[Carygrant]

Then the hunting guns that I use and my guns


At some time we need to start on people who shoot animals for pleasure .
There is something very unhealthy about the mind set that can even want to kill for the sake of killing defenceless animals . ( Culling can be handled by employed experts "as and when" ).
This tradition of going out in the hills to kill as a sport is disgusting and possibly at the root of America's sickness.

[Awryly]

At some time we need to start on people who shoot animals for pleasure .
There is something very unhealthy about the mind set that can even want to kill for the sake of killing defenceless animals . ( Culling can be handled by employed experts "as and when" ).
This tradition of going out in the hills to kill as a sport is disgusting and possibly at the root of America's sickness.


I have always thought it very odd.

I guess those animals must be guilty of something.

[Mister D]

What are they guilty of in England? :grin:

[zelmo1234]

At some time we need to start on people who shoot animals for pleasure .
There is something very unhealthy about the mind set that can even want to kill for the sake of killing defenceless animals . ( Culling can be handled by employed experts "as and when" ).
This tradition of going out in the hills to kill as a sport is disgusting and possibly at the root of America's sickness.

We do it a little different in our country, we actually hunt wild animals, we dont' line people up release a buch of pheasants and then have peopel drive them toward the shooters.

And hunting is a multi billion dollar industry, you would have to replace that, plus it is taxed to support all of the public lands, so you wold ahve to replace that, and you want professional hunters to control the population. where are you going to get the money. In MI where I live, we have a whitetail deer herd of over 2 million, and a carrying capacity of of about 800 thouand. hunters harvest about 500 thousand deer a year.

That is just one of the animals that are hunted. plus the meat that is taken from hunting is much better for you?

So maybe you will stop hunting in your country first and then worry about ours, then you cans stop violence in your country and then worry about ours,

Then you can stop the over spending in your country and then worry about ours.

You have no idea apparently how vast this country is, It would take hundreds of billions of dollars for professional shooters to control the wildlife populations, cost insurance companies hundreds of billions in crop damage payments, and the hunters are willing to pay to do the job,

get real!

[zelmo1234]

I have always thought it very odd.

http://www.kiwisafaris.co.nz/home.aspx

And for Cary

http://www.eurosafari.com/england-scotland-tours.htm

And just as I posted this I remembered?

You would not understand hunting, the wild game was reserved for Royalty and the Privilaged!

You are used to eating peasent food!



I guess those animals must be guilty of something.

[zelmo1234]

So Both of you ahve a lot of work to do in your own countries! Then you can figure out how we stop killing animals here in the USA

[Mister D]

:laugh: You'll be on ignore soon, Zelmo.

[zelmo1234]

I don't know if he really lives in NZ he does not know much about his country! But is obsessed with ours

But I guess if I lived on an island that might as well be on a different planet, I would look for something more relivant to pass the day as well.

[Mister D]

I don't know if he really lives in NZ he does not know much about his country! But is obsessed with ours

But I guess if I lived on an island that might as well be on a different planet, I would look for something more relivant to pass the day as well.

I was thinking the same thing about Carygrant. It's amazing how ignorant he is of British attitudes. It's almost hard to believe he lives there.

[Awryly]

So what's your point?

It's OK because people in all countries do it?

Not to feed themselves but for fun?


"If I kicked a dog I'd be fined £200, yet we're asked to accept (http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/8161883/Morrissey-suggests-Beckham-flogging#) Cameron (the British PM) shooting down a majestic stag just for a hoot. Weird world, isn't it," he said.

[Mister D]

So what's your point?

It's OK because people in all countries do it?

Not to feed themselves but for fun?

The point is that it's patently ridiculous for bitch tits to condemn Americans for hunting when citizens of his own country hunt for sport as well. So much for that educational system of yours...

[Mister D]

Wouldn't you know hunting is popular in New Zealand too. Savages! :grin:

[Awryly]

I don't know if he really lives in NZ he does not know much about his country! But is obsessed with ours

But I guess if I lived on an island that might as well be on a different planet, I would look for something more relivant to pass the day as well.

I suspect you do live on a different planet.

[Peter1469]

#195

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter1469 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=212404#post212404)
They want less government, not more government.
So did Hitler, as I recollect.

Or if he wanted more, he also wanted him to have it.

Hitler wanted total control over the State. He didn't want less government where citizens were free.