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Awryly
01-01-2013, 10:01 PM
They may create jobs but they do so only to create their own wealth. They give little thought to those who are not rich and, in America especially, work - through their lobbyists and a cosy relationship with legislators who pass laws to suit them - to keep them as poor as possible.

All the while, they demand access to the benefits provided to the poor.

This is no criticism of capitalism. It is necessary for growth and innovation.

It is a criticism of stark, grasping greed.

Who does any society permit these people to behave the way they do?

GrassrootsConservative
01-01-2013, 10:05 PM
Who does any society permit these people to behave the way they do?

Your ignorance is astounding, ramrod.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 10:19 PM
In NZ, we have a procession of criminal financiers heading off to jail because they ripped off their clients. And I don't mean two or three. I mean dozens.

The government (ie people like me) had to bail out their investors with a guarantee scheme.

In the US, the criminals who produced the banking and insurance frauds just bought their way out of criminal liability. Dick Fuld is as free as a bird.

What this tells me is that America there is nothing money can't buy. It buys freedom for criminals; it buys the Supreme Court; it buys elections.

And all the while, people there scream "Give me liberty or or give me death" in falsetto voce.

Which is derived from an ancient Greek phrase "Give me freedom or give me death". Though I doubt any American would think that possible.

Like the Greeks, death seems the most likely and most appropriate option.

Chris
01-01-2013, 10:24 PM
Man is greedy by nature. That greed is more evident in socialist than capitalist systems. Only a socialist, thinking he can perfect man, could create a worse man.

Awryly
01-01-2013, 10:29 PM
It occurred to me that the greedy are best managed by an honest democracy.

You know, one they haven't bought lock, stock and barrel.

Chris
01-01-2013, 10:46 PM
It occurred to me that the greedy are best managed by an honest democracy.

You know, one they haven't bought lock, stock and barrel.

You might want to rethink that. Man is greedy--you just said that. OK, so that includes those who make a profit. Problem is, the managers of a democracy are men and greedy as well. Greedy business men could not buy out an honest government but a greedy one.

This, awryly, is the problem with democracy.

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."
~Madison, Federalist #51

Awryly
01-01-2013, 10:57 PM
Those teddy bears are having a riotous time.

Down in the woods today.

I see Goldilocks is making them porridge.

http://img4.joyreactor.com/pics/post/bear-comics-fatawesome-goldilocks-366794.jpeg

hanger4
01-02-2013, 01:00 AM
Those teddy bears are having a riotous time.

Down in the woods today.

I see Goldilocks is making them porridge.

http://img4.joyreactor.com/pics/post/bear-comics-fatawesome-goldilocks-366794.jpeg

I'm sorry, I must be in the wrong thread ??

Thought this thread was about toxic rich and society whole,

not more about guns.

My bad.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 03:06 AM
AW

Remember that those liberals Barney the Banking Queen Franks and Christopher, I did not know I got a 1% mortgage Dodd, and their total support of the afordable housing act that required banks to loan to people that could not pay it back are still out there.

And here is an american that paid the price for trying to steal from people

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/business/30madoff.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And I am sure that you will not mind posting your links that the rich are only in it for themselves?

You see the charity of this nation is un matched and it is not the poor that give to countries like yours when mother nature brings disaster.

IF you really want to see opression look to communism and socialism, they will keep the poor and middle class in there place.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 03:55 AM
AW

Remember that those liberals Barney the Banking Queen Franks and Christopher, I did not know I got a 1% mortgage Dodd, and their total support of the afordable housing act that required banks to loan to people that could not pay it back are still out there.

And here is an american that paid the price for trying to steal from people

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/business/30madoff.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And I am sure that you will not mind posting your links that the rich are only in it for themselves?

You see the charity of this nation is un matched and it is not the poor that give to countries like yours when mother nature brings disaster.

IF you really want to see opression look to communism and socialism, they will keep the poor and middle class in there place.

Yes. Many thanks for the million bucks. It will go a long way towards repairing $30 billions' worth of damage.

How's that Haiti thing going? Back on their feet are they? After 3 years of American "g..g..g..generosity"?

Carygrant
01-02-2013, 04:01 AM
Man is greedy by nature. That greed is more evident in socialist than capitalist systems. Only a socialist, thinking he can perfect man, could create a worse man.


Perhaps your greatest recent Troll post .
1 . There is no proof that man is greedy by nature .Self preservation perhaps , but greed is a choice and dependent upon first having "preserved" yourself .
2. "This greed is more evident in socialist countries ....".
Drivel . Invented to suit your pre-determined conclusion .
3 "Only a socialist , thinking he can perfect man .... "
More unsubstantiated drivel . I guess you drew inspiration from the book that you leave in the toilet .

So now you have suspected tinnitus , voice hallucinations ( mysterious echoes ) and practise obsessive straw man building .
All the things you try to accuse others of .
Have a holiday , Chris . Texas perhaps . Boom , Boom .

GrassrootsConservative
01-02-2013, 04:14 AM
Yes. Many thanks for the million bucks. It will go a long way towards repairing $30 billions' worth of damage.

How's that Haiti thing going? Back on their feet are they? After 3 years of American "g..g..g..generosity"?

I don't care how nice or how large the shacks in Christchurch were, ramrod, there's no way you had $30 billion worth of damage there.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 04:18 AM
I don't care how nice or how large the shacks in Christchurch were, ramrod, there's no way you had $30 billion worth of damage there.


Christchurch's central city rebuild is estimated to cost $30 billion but it is still unclear where the money will come from, according to a expert trying to encourage re-investment in the city.

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/christchurch-cbd-rebuild-tipped-cost-30-billion-co-117122

Carygrant
01-02-2013, 05:08 AM
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/christchurch-cbd-rebuild-tipped-cost-30-billion-co-117122

Wryly ,
Never forget that the world's real experts on everything live high up in them Hilly Billy mountains . From there they can see everything --- certainly true damage in Christ Church and the real effects of Austerity in places like the UK .
This is a country where wealthy Hilly Billy people will do anything possible to force the middle class and poor to pay for the wealthy people's criminality including fraud on a scale never before even dreamed of . And they will not raise tax on the wealthy from a top 35% rate .
This is a very sick country .

Peter1469
01-02-2013, 07:35 AM
They may create jobs but they do so only to create their own wealth. They give little thought to those who are not rich and, in America especially, work - through their lobbyists and a cosy relationship with legislators who pass laws to suit them - to keep them as poor as possible.

All the while, they demand access to the benefits provided to the poor.

This is no criticism of capitalism. It is necessary for growth and innovation.

It is a criticism of stark, grasping greed.

Who does any society permit these people to behave the way they do?

Do you, or not, discount the Invisible Hand theory?

Why?

Peter1469
01-02-2013, 07:37 AM
In NZ, we have a procession of criminal financiers heading off to jail because they ripped off their clients. And I don't mean two or three. I mean dozens.

The government (ie people like me) had to bail out their investors with a guarantee scheme.

In the US, the criminals who produced the banking and insurance frauds just bought their way out of criminal liability. Dick Fuld is as free as a bird.

What this tells me is that America there is nothing money can't buy. It buys freedom for criminals; it buys the Supreme Court; it buys elections.

And all the while, people there scream "Give me liberty or or give me death" in falsetto voce.

Which is derived from an ancient Greek phrase "Give me freedom or give me death". Though I doubt any American would think that possible.

Like the Greeks, death seems the most likely and most appropriate option.

After the S&L scandal in the 80s, government regulators put over 1000 bankers in jail for felony charges and another 3000 for misdemeanor charges. The current government has failed the American people with our current crisis.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 08:05 AM
Wryly ,
Never forget that the world's real experts on everything live high up in them Hilly Billy mountains . From there they can see everything --- certainly true damage in Christ Church and the real effects of Austerity in places like the UK .
This is a country where wealthy Hilly Billy people will do anything possible to force the middle class and poor to pay for the wealthy people's criminality including fraud on a scale never before even dreamed of . And they will not raise tax on the wealthy from a top 35% rate .
This is a very sick country .

this is really funny? In your last post you talk about how we in America could not possible know the make up of Christ Church NZ, and then you post this? This may acutally suprise you to know, but I doubt it, if you are as educated as you say, then you already know this to be true?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/03/0317_richest_zips/index.htm

The wealthy live in the largest cities in America, though this is changing as these cities have run out of other peoples money and many are moving to state where the tax rates are far less.

http://funancials.biz/democrats-are-richer-than-republicans/

Yep the Democrats are where the wealth is held in this country, and their compassion comes through the government as they beleive little in charity

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?source=science20.com&_r=0

Thats right conservatives are going to give 30% more of there income to the poor

And how about our leaders they want to help the poor right? that would be wrong again

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/opinion/21kristof.html?source=science20.com&_r=0

And then you have all those in the Obama administration that just love to pay those taxes, in the above post you will see that neither Obama or Biden chose to pay there full tax rate, they took deductions that they did not have to take.

But here is a nice list for you

http://www.westernjournalism.com/tax-cheating-obama-staffers-owe-how-much-in-back-taxes/

3 dozen in his administration that are tax cheats? You see the liberals beleive they are above donations because they design policies that use there taxes to pay the poor, but then they do not pay their taxes.

TALK ABOUT GREED

Yes the Democrats are all about compassion, just don't ask them to contribute

Chris
01-02-2013, 09:55 AM
I'm sorry, I must be in the wrong thread ??

Thought this thread was about toxic rich and society whole,

not more about guns.

My bad.


I think awryly has flipped his lid, as we used to say.

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:05 AM
Perhaps your greatest recent Troll post .
1 . There is no proof that man is greedy by nature .Self preservation perhaps , but greed is a choice and dependent upon first having "preserved" yourself .
2. "This greed is more evident in socialist countries ....".
Drivel . Invented to suit your pre-determined conclusion .
3 "Only a socialist , thinking he can perfect man .... "
More unsubstantiated drivel . I guess you drew inspiration from the book that you leave in the toilet .

So now you have suspected tinnitus , voice hallucinations ( mysterious echoes ) and practise obsessive straw man building .
All the things you try to accuse others of .
Have a holiday , Chris . Texas perhaps . Boom , Boom .

Nice personal attack, but absolutely no substance to it, as it fades off into made up nonsense.


There is no proof that man is greedy by nature .Self preservation perhaps , but greed is a choice and dependent upon first having "preserved" yourself .

Why? Because you say so? I think the problem here is you, like most socialists, misunderstand greed. You think it it something excessive when all it is is a desire for things. Some for self-preservation, some for more. Choice is irrelevant.


Drivel .

Not an argument. More like a grunt.


More unsubstantiated drivel .

Not an argument. If you have questions, ask and I'll substantiate. You have to realize my argument was on the level of awryly's.


The rest trails off into a wall of babble.

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:07 AM
Wryly ,
Never forget that the world's real experts on everything live high up in them Hilly Billy mountains . From there they can see everything --- certainly true damage in Christ Church and the real effects of Austerity in places like the UK .
This is a country where wealthy Hilly Billy people will do anything possible to force the middle class and poor to pay for the wealthy people's criminality including fraud on a scale never before even dreamed of . And they will not raise tax on the wealthy from a top 35% rate .
This is a very sick country .

More anti-American emotional babble. Or as you would say, unsubstantiated drivel. My, how hypocritical.

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:10 AM
Do you, or not, discount the Invisible Hand theory?

Why?

Statists don't understand the free market but in emotional terms like survival of the fittest.

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:13 AM
this is really funny? In your last post you talk about how we in America could not possible know the make up of Christ Church NZ, and then you post this?

We have seen this sort of Janus-faced self-contradiction in awryly. I recall his arguing NZ is impoverished because of Milton Friedman, and in the next post arguing NZ is rich. That's the way trolls argue.

Carygrant
01-02-2013, 10:17 AM
Statist don't understand the free market but in emotional terms like survival of the fittest.


Another unfounded statement consistent with a man driven to invent things to then "prove" a pre-determined conclusion .
Unwitting Trolling and Authoritarianism in all its sad colours . Black or White or otherwise , get lost.

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:26 AM
Another unfounded statement consistent with a man driven to invent things to then "prove" a pre-determined conclusion .
Unwitting Trolling and Authoritarianism in all its sad colours . Black or White or otherwise , get lost.

My, you're playing the echo troll to a T today, cary.


Another unfounded statement

The fact is awryly's OP is exactly that, a view of the free market as survival of the fittest where the greedy win and the rest lose, therefore you need the state to manage it "fairly".

Of course, as stated, the problem with that statist view, besides survival of the fittest being bunk, and greed shared by all, is the state is composed of greedy men as well.



...consistent with a man driven to invent things to then "prove" a pre-determined conclusion .
Unwitting Trolling and Authoritarianism in all its sad colours . Black or White or otherwise , get lost.

Another wall of babel.

For example, to accuse a free marketer of authoritarianism is to commit an unwitting oxymoron. Not unusual for someone as prone to self-contradiction as yourself.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 11:00 AM
Another unfounded statement consistent with a man driven to invent things to then "prove" a pre-determined conclusion .
Unwitting Trolling and Authoritarianism in all its sad colours . Black or White or otherwise , get lost.

Cary

You are going to ge this when you post with out anything to back it up, I would not ex[ect you to take my word so I post the link, Now everyone is intitled to there opinion, thus it should be listed as opinion,

But to sate facts, and then do nthing to back it up??? Not the type of thing that people are going to buy just because you say it is so!

You have to understand that in this country Liberals do not mind telling a huge lie, even news agencies and papers will print it for several days and then print a small retraction on the corne of the last page, the ends justify the means they will tell you, so conservative here are inclinded to beleivne that liberals and socialist are lying! Not your fault, but something yo ahve to deal with.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:32 PM
Cary

You are going to ge this when you post with out anything to back it up, I would not ex[ect you to take my word so I post the link, Now everyone is intitled to there opinion, thus it should be listed as opinion,

But to sate facts, and then do nthing to back it up??? Not the type of thing that people are going to buy just because you say it is so!

You have to understand that in this country Liberals do not mind telling a huge lie, even news agencies and papers will print it for several days and then print a small retraction on the corne of the last page, the ends justify the means they will tell you, so conservative here are inclinded to beleivne that liberals and socialist are lying! Not your fault, but something yo ahve to deal with.


http://www.break.com/index/dealer-kills-pocket-aces-2335041

Awryly
01-02-2013, 06:50 PM
Cary

You are going to ge this when you post with out anything to back it up, I would not ex[ect you to take my word so I post the link, Now everyone is intitled to there opinion, thus it should be listed as opinion,

But to sate facts, and then do nthing to back it up??? Not the type of thing that people are going to buy just because you say it is so!

You have to understand that in this country Liberals do not mind telling a huge lie, even news agencies and papers will print it for several days and then print a small retraction on the corne of the last page, the ends justify the means they will tell you, so conservative here are inclinded to beleivne that liberals and socialist are lying! Not your fault, but something yo ahve to deal with.

Why is it that conservatives hate truth not of their own making? They hire lobbyists and FoxNews to attack palpable truths.

"Thou protest too much" to be taken seriously.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 07:12 PM
Perhaps your greatest recent Troll post .
1 . There is no proof that man is greedy by nature .Self preservation perhaps , but greed is a choice and dependent upon first having "preserved" yourself .
2. "This greed is more evident in socialist countries ....".
Drivel . Invented to suit your pre-determined conclusion .
3 "Only a socialist , thinking he can perfect man .... "
More unsubstantiated drivel . I guess you drew inspiration from the book that you leave in the toilet .

So now you have suspected tinnitus , voice hallucinations ( mysterious echoes ) and practise obsessive straw man building .
All the things you try to accuse others of .
Have a holiday , Chris . Texas perhaps . Boom , Boom .

The French gave Americans the Statue of Liberty. They turned her into a whore.

The Brazilians have decided to do the same. They are rumoured to be giving Americans this:

http://www.lovethesepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/From-Back-Christ-the-Redeemer-overlooking-Rio-De-Janeiro.jpg

On condition they call it the Statue of Puberty.

Something to do with growing up, I understand.

Knowing the Yanks, they will probably try to give it a wax.

Chris
01-02-2013, 07:41 PM
Always funny to watch two anti-american trolls talking, one babels about one thing, t'other blabbers about something else, neither one making a lick o' sense.

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 09:37 PM
Why is it that conservatives hate truth not of their own making? They hire lobbyists and FoxNews to attack palpable truths.

"Thou protest too much" to be taken seriously.

What truths? And what of their own making, and remember I am not a republican? So be as harsh as you like

Awryly
01-02-2013, 09:43 PM
What truths? And what of their own making, and remember I am not a republican? So be as harsh as you like

So what are you?

(I know that's harsh.)

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 09:50 PM
So what are you?

(I know that's harsh.)

I constitutionalist, I believe that what the government can and can;t do are spelled out int the constitution, and that the Democrats and Republcans have been exceeding their power for decades, and the the size of government is out of control.

I often vote for republicans, but before Senator Levin a democrat lost his mind about 8 years ago I used to vote for him and at times I will vote for neither of them.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 10:11 PM
I constitutionalist, I believe that what the government can and can;t do are spelled out int the constitution, and that the Democrats and Republcans have been exceeding their power for decades, and the the size of government is out of control.

I often vote for republicans, but before Senator Levin a democrat lost his mind about 8 years ago I used to vote for him and at times I will vote for neither of them.

Well, that's a problem. The constitution keeps changing its mind.

Did you vote for prohibition? Or for its repeal?

zelmo1234
01-02-2013, 10:18 PM
Well, that's a problem. The constitution keeps changing its mind.

Did you vote for prohibition? Or for its repeal?

the beauty of the constitution is you could have voted for both.

It was desigend so that it could be changed, but it was not easy to change.

There was a reason, it was to make sure that our government did not become oppressive, but today we have not held our government to the constitution and they have over reached there power.

It may be that insolvency will be the only path back to the constitution that made this country great!

Awryly
01-02-2013, 10:19 PM
the beauty of the constitution is you could have voted for both.

It was desigend so that it could be changed, but it was not easy to change.

There was a reason, it was to make sure that our government did not become oppressive, but today we have not held our government to the constitution and they have over reached there power.

It may be that insolvency will be the only path back to the constitution that made this country great!

So the constitution can be made to say whatever people want it to say?

Chris
01-02-2013, 10:24 PM
It was desigend so that it could be changed, but it was not easy to change.


So the constitution can be made to say whatever people want it to say?

Most any American who's read the document understands what zelmo said. Awryly, you don't have a clue.

Peter1469
01-02-2013, 10:34 PM
So the constitution can be made to say whatever people want it to say?

Only through the amendment process or a constitutional convention.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 10:41 PM
Only through the amendment process or a constitutional convention.

But it can change its mind?

It could abolish the states?


Amending clause. Article V, Section 1. Article V provides for amendments. Amendment of state Constitutions at the time of the 1787 Constitutional Convention required only a majority vote in a sitting legislature of a state, as duly elected representatives of its sovereign people. The very next session, meeting by the same authority, could likewise undo the work of any previous sitting assembly. This was not the "fundamental law" the founders such as James Madison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison) had in mind.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWood1998306-308-38)

Chris
01-02-2013, 11:10 PM
But it can change its mind?

Yes, the Constitution has a mind of its own which of course it can change any time it pleases. Sometimes it opens the case it's locked up in and walks about town and whistles a tune no one can quite make out. I swear one time I saw it flying by folded up like a paper airplane. Yes, our Constitution is really an amazing little document.

:loco:

Awryly
01-02-2013, 11:32 PM
But it can change its mind?

It could abolish the states?

We abolished our provincial governments back in 1876.

Never looked back since.

So much less squawking.

We also got rid of our Upper House. There were insufficient peers to populate it. Unlike in the UK. Where everyone has a title of some sort.

Awryly
01-02-2013, 11:51 PM
Has it not yet occurred to you that the rich got you into the mess you are in?

Awryly
01-03-2013, 05:03 AM
Do you, or not, discount the Invisible Hand theory?

Why?


I'm surprised anyone believes in this theory any more. I doubt Adam Smith would if he were alive.

There are market forces. That's all. And these days they are usually at odds with his "desirable social outcomes".

We have to have to have governments to combat them.

zelmo1234
01-03-2013, 05:19 AM
We abolished our provincial governments back in 1876.

Never looked back since.

So much less squawking.

We also got rid of our Upper House. There were insufficient peers to populate it. Unlike in the UK. Where everyone has a title of some sort.

I guess that in the since of the word the constitution does allow for the abolition of states and the right that they have through the amendment process, it would take a 2/3's vote in both of the houses and a signature py the president and the it would go to the states for a vote, and 3/4's of them would have to vote to abolish themselves.

But it could be done, not likely we ever have to worry about that

And getting ride of some of your democratic process might be right for kiwi's and that great. But you still have the difference of being subjects instead of free people.

So that does not sell so well in this country.

zelmo1234
01-03-2013, 05:28 AM
Has it not yet occurred to you that the rich got you into the mess you are in?

And of course you are now going to show us how this happened, and back that up with proof right????

The government got us into this problem, we do not have a reveneu problem in this country we are taking in more taxes than ever before, we have a Democratic Party that is spending 1.2 trillion per year more than GWB who was by all accounts a big spending President. But if Obama would have held to his spending, we would not have has to have even one debt limit increase. So why don't you at least admit that you know very little about American politics and as I have posted, you are not real up on NZ politics, and what has your country growing.

You do show some real signs of class envy, and seem to beleive that the rich are terrible, people that only want to steal from others, but when questioned about the fact, you post something on guns???

So tell us all how the rich have caused this problem, and then tell us how the policies of the Democrats and President Obama are helping the poor and middle class, You might want to start with the 2% tax increase that the Democrats just handed them.

Awryly
01-03-2013, 07:12 AM
I guess that in the since of the word the constitution does allow for the abolition of states and the right that they have through the amendment process, it would take a 2/3's vote in both of the houses and a signature py the president and the it would go to the states for a vote, and 3/4's of them would have to vote to abolish themselves.

But it could be done, not likely we ever have to worry about that

And getting ride of some of your democratic process might be right for kiwi's and that great. But you still have the difference of being subjects instead of free people.

So that does not sell so well in this country.

It wasn't democratic processes we got rid of. It was undemocratic processes. The Upper Chamber was not elected.

Awryly
01-03-2013, 07:16 AM
And of course you are now going to show us how this happened, and back that up with proof right????

The government got us into this problem, we do not have a reveneu problem in this country we are taking in more taxes than ever before, we have a Democratic Party that is spending 1.2 trillion per year more than GWB who was by all accounts a big spending President. But if Obama would have held to his spending, we would not have has to have even one debt limit increase. So why don't you at least admit that you know very little about American politics and as I have posted, you are not real up on NZ politics, and what has your country growing.

You do show some real signs of class envy, and seem to beleive that the rich are terrible, people that only want to steal from others, but when questioned about the fact, you post something on guns???

So tell us all how the rich have caused this problem, and then tell us how the policies of the Democrats and President Obama are helping the poor and middle class, You might want to start with the 2% tax increase that the Democrats just handed them.

Good grief. Your rich have bought your democratic processes and your judiciary. They nearly collapsed your economy and started the war in Iraq. They successfully take money out of the mainstream economy by successfully lobbying for massive government subsidies and tax exemptions.

I thought you might know that.

Bush's (continuing) policies, which were inspired by the rich and inherited by Obama, also created most of the current debt you have created since the days of Clinton.

The 2% increase in Social Security tax is just a small claw-back of Bush's many tax cuts.

Chris
01-03-2013, 08:59 AM
I'm surprised anyone believes in this theory any more. I doubt Adam Smith would if he were alive.

There are market forces. That's all. And these days they are usually at odds with his "desirable social outcomes".

We have to have to have governments to combat them.

Nice self-contradiction. You say you don't believe in market forces (the invisible hand) and then you say they exist ("There are market forces."). So apparently here's one more thing you don't understand.

These market forces emerge from the myriad individual self-interested choices people make exchanging goods and services. As such they are spontaneous and natural. The results are not perfect but much better than any artificial thing man thinks he can design, such as the corny capitalistic system you describe as government combating the free market.

GrumpyDog
01-03-2013, 12:23 PM
Democratic Socialism. A natural evolution that provides the greatest number of people, life, liberty, and the ability to pursue happiness. Why? Because land and resources are distributed by majority concensus of the people through voting, rather than through control by a few mega wealthy who declare all the land and resources are their "property".

As opposed to the oligarchial republic, the favorite of the wealthy, which is a controlled apparatus to keep the many locked into a downward spiral into poverty, while enriching the few. Thus, life for the many, becomes diffcult, and liberty and pursuit of happiness is limited by depriving the many of resources and land. The Empire returns.

As opposed to anarchy, a society without government, where life, liberty and happiness are deprived because there is no security. Thus the paranoia grows, and soon every individual must be armed, as there is no trust among individuals. There is no community. Might makes right. Kill or be killed. The Dark age returns.

The Republicans offered to reconstruct the Empire. That has been rejected as a viable model, since the world is no longer tolerant of that old paradigm, and the Cold War ended.

The Democrats offered to go forwards into the future, to construct a new model, based upon a moral imperative: The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few,or the one. That has been accepted as a viable model.

Third way party, has offered some version of Anarchy, which has been rejected completely, by vast majority of the society. If the Anarchists decide to become violent, then they will be neutralized, out of necessity. Those captured, for commiting violent acts, will be imprisoned, in a humane environment, where they can be educated, and hopefully reconditioned, to understand that freedom can only exist if there is a civilized society.

Peter1469
01-03-2013, 12:34 PM
That is a highly idealized version of government types. Why are all the democratic socialist nations moving towards privatization and free markets? They ran out of other people's money.