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Awryly
01-07-2013, 09:12 PM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.

GrassrootsConservative
01-07-2013, 09:19 PM
How about an example of Conservative ignorance, ramrod?
The problem with these attacks is that they're so general, you could be talking about anything.
I would like to debate you, but first you need to learn about substance in essays, and facts instead of total bullshit:


They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

No substance. No facts. Nothing of value.

Mister D
01-07-2013, 09:24 PM
Hopefully this garbage is canned by the mods. Awryly is just acting out because I humiliated him once again this evening. Always at my convenience of course. :smiley:

Awryly
01-07-2013, 09:46 PM
Those squirrels are rustling the leaves again.

I suspect conservatives read too many biblical fantasies, most of which were made up hundreds and even thousands of years earlier by Greeks, Indians and Romans; long before Matthew, Mark, Luke and John came to entertain us.

But they are useful in bending society to their greed. Although not in ways intended by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 09:56 PM
Those squirrels are rustling the leaves again.

I suspect conservatives read too many biblical fantasies, most of which were made up hundreds and even thousands of years earlier by Greeks, Indians and Romans; long before Matthew, Mark, Luke and John came to entertain us.

But they are useful in bending society to their greed. Although not in ways intended by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

I'll repeat GrassrootsConservative's words;

How about an example of Conservative ignorance, ramrod?
The problem with these attacks is that they're so general, you could be talking about anything.
I would like to debate you, but first you need to learn about substance in essays, and facts instead of total bullshit:

No substance. No facts. Nothing of value.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 09:59 PM
I'll repeat GrassrootsConservative's words;

How about an example of Conservative ignorance, ramrod?
The problem with these attacks is that they're so general, you could be talking about anything.
I would like to debate you, but first you need to learn about substance in essays, and facts instead of total bullshit:

No substance. No facts. Nothing of value.

I doubt you would recognise anything of value.

Given my experience of you.

Dr. Who
01-07-2013, 10:00 PM
I can't attest to whether all Conservatives are ignorant, but there do tend to be a disproportionate number who seem to believe that the 2nd Amendment is the only one of any importance and their vociferousness seems to be in inverse proportion to their literacy. On the other hand, there are the bible thumpers who inject religion into every other statement.

Chris
01-07-2013, 10:02 PM
I can't attest to whether all Conservatives are ignorant, but there do tend to be a disproportionate number who seem to believe that the 2nd Amendment is the only one of any importance and their vociferousness seems to be in inverse proportion to their literacy. On the other hand, there are the bible thumpers who inject religion into every other statement.

Just as there are liberals who put blind faith in government.

Chris
01-07-2013, 10:05 PM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.

Again you unwittingly describe yourself in projecting onto others your own ignorance.

Proof: Your inability to engage in intellectually honest discussion as exhibited already in this yet another awryly trolling thread.

GrassrootsConservative
01-07-2013, 10:07 PM
I can't attest to whether all Conservatives are ignorant, but there do tend to be a disproportionate number who seem to believe that the 2nd Amendment is the only one of any importance and their vociferousness seems to be in inverse proportion to their literacy. On the other hand, there are the bible thumpers who inject religion into every other statement.

You are not talking about true Conservatives, my fellow Whovian. You are talking about Republicans and the Religious Right, very small sects of the overall embracing concept of Conservatism.
True Conservatives consider The Constitution as a whole with all the amendments to be of equal importance. You cannot enforce any of it without the document as a whole, just like you cannot have the American government without the 3 branches that make it up, supporting each other.

Dr. Who
01-07-2013, 10:08 PM
Just as their are liberals who place very little faith in government, but don't believe that one should throw out the baby with the bath water.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 10:08 PM
I doubt you would recognise anything of value.

Given my experience of you.

Why attack me ??

OH, OH, never mind that's what this hole thread was about anyway.

Ad hominem attacks !!

And attacking conservatives without facts !!

Dr. Who
01-07-2013, 10:10 PM
Perhaps we are not so far apart. The devil is in the details.

Chris
01-07-2013, 10:10 PM
Just as their are liberals who place very little faith in government, but don't believe that one should throw out the baby with the bath water.

Just as there are intelligent conservatives who defend more rights than are protected in the BoR and who are secular to boot.

The baby is society, the bathwater government.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 10:11 PM
I can't attest to whether all Conservatives are ignorant, but there do tend to be a disproportionate number who seem to believe that the 2nd Amendment is the only one of any importance and their vociferousness seems to be in inverse proportion to their literacy. On the other hand, there are the bible thumpers who inject religion into every other statement.

I have found that too.

Why do you think they do it?

Conditioning?

I am talking about the poor ones who somehow believe the Republicans will save them. Not the rich ones who sacrifice literacy and even numeracy for profit.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 10:13 PM
Why attack me ??

OH, OH, never mind that's what this hole thread was about anyway.

Ad hominem attacks !!

And attacking conservatives without facts !!

He yelps.

While scratching what passes for a brain for an idea.

GrassrootsConservative
01-07-2013, 10:15 PM
I am talking about the poor ones who somehow believe the Republicans will save them. Not the rich ones who sacrifice literacy and even numeracy for profit.

I am neither poor nor rich.
Your generalizations are invalid.
I'm done with this thread. Suck it, troll.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 10:16 PM
He yelps.

While scratching what passes for a brain for an idea.

Thanks for making my point

that your thread is pointless.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 10:20 PM
Thanks for making my point

that your thread is pointless.

Of course it's pointless. Most threads here are.

A thread with a point would involve intelligent life. Not the latest mindless airings from the Republican top 20 hit list of 1985.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 10:34 PM
Of course it's pointless. Most threads here are.

A thread with a point would involve intelligent life. Not the latest mindless airings from the Republican top 20 hit list of 1985.

And you're still here :lame:

Awryly
01-07-2013, 10:36 PM
And you're still here :lame:

So you are that determined to prove my point regarding mindlessness?

Do yourself a favour. Explore the world. Have an idea; that was not drummed into you by the NRA.

Chris
01-07-2013, 10:41 PM
Of course it's pointless. Most threads here are.

A thread with a point would involve intelligent life. Not the latest mindless airings from the Republican top 20 hit list of 1985.

You've just admitted your thread is pointless and meaningless.

It sounds like you don't like it here.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 10:41 PM
So you are that determined to prove my point regarding mindlessness?

Explore the world. Have an idea.

I've already proved your point,

Your thread is mindlessness,

and you admit it.

You've owned yourself again !!

Awryly
01-07-2013, 10:45 PM
I've already proved your point,

Your thread is mindlessness,

and you admit it.

You've owned yourself again !!

I accept that you are dedicated to the pursuit of your own fantasies.

May they live up to the reality out there and not foreclose on your home. If you have one.

hanger4
01-07-2013, 10:49 PM
I accept that you are dedicated to the pursuit of your own fantasies.

May they live up to the reality out there and not foreclose on your home. If you have one.

:loco::loco:

Dr. Who
01-07-2013, 10:57 PM
I have found that too.

Why do you think they do it?

Conditioning?

I am talking about the poor ones who somehow believe the Republicans will save them. Not the rich ones who sacrifice literacy and even numeracy for profit.

What increasingly passes for conservativism these days is really neo-conservatism. A goodly proportion of the increasingly semi-literate public lack the ability to appreciate the difference and are easily swayed by deliberate pandering to Christian Fundamentalism or blatant fear mongering in order to obtain votes. Any attempt to restrict gun ownership in any way is twisted by the neo-cons into an attempt to repeal the second amendment thereby ensuring the alienation of the rural voters from the liberal message. However these neo-cons have agendas that have nothing to do with improving society, but rather to ensure the continued looting of American tax dollars to benefit the entitled few. Ironically the current Democrats are much more conservative than they were in prior Democratic administrations. There has been a gradual shift to the right over the last twenty years. The neo-cons are very fond of pointing to the current administration and blaming the economic woes of the US on current economic policy. Of course no one talks about the unholy mess that they inherited from the previous administration or the fact the the prosecution of wars in Iraq and Afganistan nearly bankrupted the Treasury. To add insult to injury, the subprime mortgage fiasco launched a global credit crisis that has plunged the entire world into recession and that began before the Democrats took power.

The reason that the poor are easily hoodwinked by these con artists is largly due to their lack of education. They don't read much and they tend to be zenophobic. It's very easy to create an us and them diametric because they already feel vulnerable. They live in perpetual fear of losing what little they have. These types of people have always existed in the world and have always been preyed upon by sophisticated preditors. They are not really any different than the poor Muslims in Afganistan or Iraq. There are always tyrants all too ready to use the fear of the masses to support their quest for power.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 11:10 PM
What increasingly passes for conservativism these days is really neo-conservatism. A goodly proportion of the increasingly semi-literate public lack the ability to appreciate the difference and are easily swayed by deliberate pandering to Christian Fundamentalism or blatant fear mongering in order to obtain votes. Any attempt to restrict gun ownership in any way is twisted by the neo-cons into an attempt to repeal the second amendment thereby ensuring the alienation of the rural voters from the liberal message. However these neo-cons have agendas that have nothing to do with improving society, but rather to ensure the continued looting of American tax dollars to benefit the entitled few. Ironically the current Democrats are much more conservative than they were in prior Democratic administrations. There has been a gradual shift to the right over the last twenty years. The neo-cons are very fond of pointing to the current administration and blaming the economic woes of the US on current economic policy. Of course no one talks about the unholy mess that they inherited from the previous administration or the fact the the prosecution of wars in Iraq and Afganistan nearly bankrupted the Treasury. To add insult to injury, the subprime mortgage fiasco launched a global credit crisis that has plunged the entire world into recession and that began before the Democrats took power.

The reason that the poor are easily hoodwinked by these con artists is largly due to their lack of education. They don't read much and they tend to be zenophobic. It's very easy to create an us and them diametric because they already feel vulnerable. They live in perpetual fear of losing what little they have. These types of people have always existed in the world and have always been preyed upon by sophisticated preditors. They are not really any different than the poor Muslims in Afganistan or Iraq. There are always tyrants all too ready to use the fear of the masses to support their quest for power.


All of what you say appeals to me as true.

Especially the education bit. The US is almost out of sight on the list of educational achievers.

I guess the Republicans are not interested in educating people because they may find out how hollow they are?

Awryly
01-07-2013, 11:14 PM
PS: you are in for a hard time here with your "cranky" ideas. And will soon be swamped by outroarious and uprageous sentiments from the right here.

But I guess you might know that.

Awryly
01-07-2013, 11:27 PM
And you are right. Cons and neo-cons are different animals. There need to be some in the pack that don't follow the other lemmings over the cliff.

At least, that's what Darwin used to say.

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 12:53 AM
What increasingly passes for conservativism these days is really neo-conservatism. A goodly proportion of the increasingly semi-literate public lack the ability to appreciate the difference and are easily swayed by deliberate pandering to Christian Fundamentalism or blatant fear mongering in order to obtain votes. Any attempt to restrict gun ownership in any way is twisted by the neo-cons into an attempt to repeal the second amendment thereby ensuring the alienation of the rural voters from the liberal message. However these neo-cons have agendas that have nothing to do with improving society, but rather to ensure the continued looting of American tax dollars to benefit the entitled few. Ironically the current Democrats are much more conservative than they were in prior Democratic administrations. There has been a gradual shift to the right over the last twenty years. The neo-cons are very fond of pointing to the current administration and blaming the economic woes of the US on current economic policy. Of course no one talks about the unholy mess that they inherited from the previous administration or the fact the the prosecution of wars in Iraq and Afganistan nearly bankrupted the Treasury. To add insult to injury, the subprime mortgage fiasco launched a global credit crisis that has plunged the entire world into recession and that began before the Democrats took power.

The reason that the poor are easily hoodwinked by these con artists is largly due to their lack of education. They don't read much and they tend to be zenophobic. It's very easy to create an us and them diametric because they already feel vulnerable. They live in perpetual fear of losing what little they have. These types of people have always existed in the world and have always been preyed upon by sophisticated preditors. They are not really any different than the poor Muslims in Afganistan or Iraq. There are always tyrants all too ready to use the fear of the masses to support their quest for power.

WOW a lot to deal with here?

First the hard one?

Banking Regulations and what caused it? Was it the Greed of Banks or government regulations forcing them to make bad loans?

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-government-caused-the-mortgage-crisis-2009-10

And where did these policies start?



While there intention, like all liberals intentions was to build wealth for the poor and working poor through home ownership, these people did not have the resources to pay the loans back!

Though GWB did try to get the regulations changed? http://usread.com/blog1/?p=152

He was too much of a coward to face Dodd and Franks once they called him racist for wanting these reforms

Now for the massive cost of the wars? http://costofwar.com/

1.4 trillion over 12 years, or about 112 billion a year doing the math in my head

And the Obama deficites, including 2009, which the site tries to give to Bush and if Democrats are willing to give 2001 to Clinton and admit that GWB inherited a deficite and a recession I am ok with that, but of course he did not! so we will give 2009 to Obama

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

So the war is about 10% of Obamas deficites

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 01:08 AM
All of what you say appeals to me as true.

Especially the education bit. The US is almost out of sight on the list of educational achievers.

I guess the Republicans are not interested in educating people because they may find out how hollow they are?

Yes I saved this one for you because we know how much you like to have the fact back up what appeals to you?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/how-do-the-47-vote/

Of the poorest of the poor, including those on assistance, 25% vote for Republicans?

And the working poor, Middle class in your country, but working poor here? 37% vote for republicans?

So you are right the uneducated are scared into voting for a political party it just happend to be the democratic party.

and of course President Carter created the department of education to improve the the way our children are educated?

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/jborowski/abolishing-the-department-of-education-is-the-righ

Yep the quality of education in our country has gone down hill since we put the federal government in charge

Awryly
01-08-2013, 01:09 AM
WOW a lot to deal with here?

First the hard one?

Banking Regulations and what caused it? Was it the Greed of Banks or government regulations forcing them to make bad loans?

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-government-caused-the-mortgage-crisis-2009-10

And where did these policies start?



While there intention, like all liberals intentions was to build wealth for the poor and working poor through home ownership, these people did not have the resources to pay the loans back!

Though GWB did try to get the regulations changed? http://usread.com/blog1/?p=152

He was too much of a coward to face Dodd and Franks once they called him racist for wanting these reforms

Now for the massive cost of the wars? http://costofwar.com/

1.4 trillion over 12 years, or about 112 billion a year doing the math in my head

And the Obama deficites, including 2009, which the site tries to give to Bush and if Democrats are willing to give 2001 to Clinton and admit that GWB inherited a deficite and a recession I am ok with that, but of course he did not! so we will give 2009 to Obama

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html

So the war is about 10% of Obamas deficites

Why do have such a love of question marks?

Oh.

I get it.

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 01:12 AM
PS: you are in for a hard time here with your "cranky" ideas. And will soon be swamped by outroarious and uprageous sentiments from the right here.

But I guess you might know that.

So when we post facts that do not support your belief, that is a terrible thing to do?

Awryly
01-08-2013, 01:14 AM
So when we post facts that do not support your belief, that is a terrible thing to do?

Proper use of question mark.

You call those "facts"?

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 01:15 AM
Why do have such a love of question marks?

Oh.

I get it.

Because I am so confused

I do not understand how people can believe things that do not have the facts to support them?

People that blindly follow a system that has failed them time and time again and they just kepp doing the same thing, staggers the imagination

Awryly
01-08-2013, 01:18 AM
Because I am so confused



You went on far too long.

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 01:22 AM
Proper use of question mark.

You call those "facts"?

I am very open to looking at all links that you post to lead me in a different direction,

For example you have stated that the progress in your country is because of former liberal governments?

But you only tell me that these things happen because of the former government, when I check into it, the policies were inacted under the current conservative administration? So I use the ? becasue I hope that you will post the facts that you are basing your conclusion on

I understand the desire to be compasionate, but when the policies of compasion doom people to poverty and dispare, then it is not compasionate, reguardless of the intent of the legislation.

And just because policies sound harsh, if the require people to drag themselves up by their boot straps, and in the end they have a much more prosperous life, those are compasionate

Awryly
01-08-2013, 01:52 AM
I am very open to looking at all links that you post to lead me in a different direction,

For example you have stated that the progress in your country is because of former liberal governments?

But you only tell me that these things happen because of the former government, when I check into it, the policies were inacted under the current conservative administration? So I use the ? becasue I hope that you will post the facts that you are basing your conclusion on

I understand the desire to be compasionate, but when the policies of compasion doom people to poverty and dispare, then it is not compasionate, reguardless of the intent of the legislation.

And just because policies sound harsh, if the require people to drag themselves up by their boot straps, and in the end they have a much more prosperous life, those are compasionate

Heaven only knows what you think you're looking at.

Guess it wasn't this.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/new-zealand-unemployment-rate.png?s=nzlfuner

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 02:00 AM
Yes I looked at the same chart earlier today when doing reasearch, I actually thought of you and why you had not posted it, but when you brag about how well you are doing it is hard to post to the opposite

I sent out some emails to try and find out if your construction sector is suffering like ours, but with the Christ Church disaster it does not appear so

Do not feel to bad about you unemployment it appears that you have not resorted to not counting people because they stopped looking for work and have run out of all assistance options.

Our real unempoyment is between 9.5 and 10% You ahve a lot of good things going for you, just don't screw it up, look at the idiots in this county that can't do anything right, and I mean Republicans and Democrats. they act like a bunch of 2 year olds fighting over a toy!

Awryly
01-08-2013, 03:07 AM
Yes I looked at the same chart earlier today when doing reasearch, I actually thought of you and why you had not posted it, but when you brag about how well you are doing it is hard to post to the opposite

I sent out some emails to try and find out if your construction sector is suffering like ours, but with the Christ Church disaster it does not appear so

Do not feel to bad about you unemployment it appears that you have not resorted to not counting people because they stopped looking for work and have run out of all assistance options.

Our real unempoyment is between 9.5 and 10% You ahve a lot of good things going for you, just don't screw it up, look at the idiots in this county that can't do anything right, and I mean Republicans and Democrats. they act like a bunch of 2 year olds fighting over a toy!

So it didn't sink in that the unemployment rate I showed only started to rise when the conservative government you have happily lauded to the skies took office?

GrumpyDog
01-08-2013, 03:23 AM
Why would a far removed islander, with trivial concerns no greater than how much sheep manure has piled up lately, make an ignorant conclusion concerning ignorance?

Answer: Sheep manure, if not properly disposed off, and allowed to accumulate in ones front yard, begins to emit a toxic gas which adversely affects the islanders perception of reality, gradually deteriorating his or her brain chemistry, until eventually, madness overwhelms the islander, who then must be hospitalized, and decontaminated before being readmitted back into society.

Carygrant
01-08-2013, 04:25 AM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.


Your OP has worked like the successful introduction of a new Slug Repellant .
It has attracted precisely those targeted contributors who exactly fit the profile . As you know , I call them the Hilly Billy people , a comparatively new tribe directly bred from The Hillbilllies and scattered the length and breadth of the country but intellectually centred somewhere down in or near to old Texas .
Imagine the site without such bigots . What a pleasant place it would be without the bitterness and rancour as other members from the many parts of the globe actually engaged in conversation and real discussion with their sane and so much better informed American counter parts without the incessant chatter and nonsense of the sub species .
Imagine how prospective new American contributors react when they see the low level of spiteful and blinkered contribution offered by these garden pests --- they get out as fast as possible .

P.S. Admin and Moderators take note for possible formal discussion .

Awryly
01-08-2013, 04:42 AM
Your OP has worked like the successful introduction of a new Slug Repellant .
It has attracted precisely those targeted contributors who exactly fit the profile . As you know , I call them the Hilly Billy people , a comparatively new tribe directly bred from The Hillbilllies and scattered the length and breadth of the country but intellectually centred somewhere down in or near to old Texas .
Imagine the site without such bigots . What a pleasant place it would be without the bitterness and rancour as other members from the many parts of the globe actually engaged in conversation and real discussion with their sane and so much better informed American counter parts without the incessant chatter and nonsense of the sub species .
Imagine how prospective new American contributors react when they see the low level of spiteful and blinkered contribution offered by these garden pests --- they get out as fast as possible .

P.S. Admin and Moderators take note for possible formal discussion .


Ah ha. But in amongst the blizzard of neocon confetti, it also attracted a certain Dr Who. Who made rather a lot of refreshing sense.

Carygrant
01-08-2013, 04:59 AM
Absolutely .
And elsewhere I also remark on this further UK contribution ---- direct or indirect . But never forgetting the inspired contributions of our Commonwealth friends ( Long may ANZAC be honoured).

P.S. Sometime we should introduce a Topic on international friends . This would be very educational for those not understanding or having any direct experience of the notions of Internationalism or Friendship .

Awryly
01-08-2013, 05:04 AM
Absolutely .
And elsewhere I also remark on this further UK contribution ---- direct or indirect . But never forgetting the inspired contributions of our Commonwealth friends ( Long may ANZAC be honoured).

P.S. Sometime we should introduce a Topic on international friends . This would be very educational for those not understanding or having any direct experience of the notions of Internationalism or Friendship .

English, is he? I should have guessed.

But I was sort of hoping for an inspired American. Not, of course, to in any way disparage the English.

Carygrant
01-08-2013, 05:16 AM
I am only guessing , which is why I worded my post carefully .
But the name itself seems some sort of good clue because , " coincidences do not exist".

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 06:46 AM
So it didn't sink in that the unemployment rate I showed only started to rise when the conservative government you have happily lauded to the skies took office?

What else happened in end of 2008?

http://cities-matter.blogspot.com/2011/08/regional-impacts-of-global-financial.html

And of course you beleive that the policies of Obama are good for America? And look at his unemployment?

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/080312-621034-real-unemployment-much-higher-than-white-house-claims.htm?p=full

That is what we look like when you add back in all the people that have given up looking for a job!

Cigar
01-08-2013, 07:42 AM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.


You forgot one important thing ... Deny Deny Deny Deny Deny

hanger4
01-08-2013, 07:48 AM
You forgot one important thing ... Deny Deny Deny Deny Deny

The master has spoken.

You've perfected the art of denial Cigar.

You should be so proud.

Awryly
01-08-2013, 08:08 AM
You forgot one important thing ... Deny Deny Deny Deny Deny

Indeed. And deny that they're denying.

Awryly
01-08-2013, 08:19 AM
What else happened in end of 2008?

http://cities-matter.blogspot.com/2011/08/regional-impacts-of-global-financial.html

And of course you beleive that the policies of Obama are good for America? And look at his unemployment?

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/080312-621034-real-unemployment-much-higher-than-white-house-claims.htm?p=full

That is what we look like when you add back in all the people that have given up looking for a job!

That may be worth a closer look. But you have forgotten a few things.

NZ came off a low unemployment base and the rate keeps going up 5 years after the little recession you got us into. And more and more people took off for Australia - hiding the true rate. In the US, the unemployment rate has substantially dropped from its peak of 10.2% two years ago. And looks set to improve further.

Our government has done nothing to promote job creation here. It just fiddles while Auckland burns and tries to cover its arse by raising taxes on petrol ("gas" to you) and selling our public assets. I guess it's hoping longer term that the Christchurch rebuild will provide the stimulus the economy needs.

Some policy: relying on natural disasters as a form of economic engineering.

Chris
01-08-2013, 08:41 AM
What increasingly passes for conservativism these days is really neo-conservatism. A goodly proportion of the increasingly semi-literate public lack the ability to appreciate the difference and are easily swayed by deliberate pandering to Christian Fundamentalism or blatant fear mongering in order to obtain votes. Any attempt to restrict gun ownership in any way is twisted by the neo-cons into an attempt to repeal the second amendment thereby ensuring the alienation of the rural voters from the liberal message. However these neo-cons have agendas that have nothing to do with improving society, but rather to ensure the continued looting of American tax dollars to benefit the entitled few. Ironically the current Democrats are much more conservative than they were in prior Democratic administrations. There has been a gradual shift to the right over the last twenty years. The neo-cons are very fond of pointing to the current administration and blaming the economic woes of the US on current economic policy. Of course no one talks about the unholy mess that they inherited from the previous administration or the fact the the prosecution of wars in Iraq and Afganistan nearly bankrupted the Treasury. To add insult to injury, the subprime mortgage fiasco launched a global credit crisis that has plunged the entire world into recession and that began before the Democrats took power.

The reason that the poor are easily hoodwinked by these con artists is largly due to their lack of education. They don't read much and they tend to be zenophobic. It's very easy to create an us and them diametric because they already feel vulnerable. They live in perpetual fear of losing what little they have. These types of people have always existed in the world and have always been preyed upon by sophisticated preditors. They are not really any different than the poor Muslims in Afganistan or Iraq. There are always tyrants all too ready to use the fear of the masses to support their quest for power.

There are cons and neocons and social cons and paleocons and libertarian cons and you seems to mix them all up.


Of course no one talks about the unholy mess that they inherited from the previous administration or the fact the the prosecution of wars in Iraq and Afganistan nearly bankrupted the Treasury.

I suggest you look around the forum before you pass judgment.

Chris
01-08-2013, 08:46 AM
Your OP has worked like the successful introduction of a new Slug Repellant .
It has attracted precisely those targeted contributors who exactly fit the profile . As you know , I call them the Hilly Billy people , a comparatively new tribe directly bred from The Hillbilllies and scattered the length and breadth of the country but intellectually centred somewhere down in or near to old Texas .
Imagine the site without such bigots . What a pleasant place it would be without the bitterness and rancour as other members from the many parts of the globe actually engaged in conversation and real discussion with their sane and so much better informed American counter parts without the incessant chatter and nonsense of the sub species .
Imagine how prospective new American contributors react when they see the low level of spiteful and blinkered contribution offered by these garden pests --- they get out as fast as possible .

P.S. Admin and Moderators take note for possible formal discussion .

IOW, you, cary, as another troll, praise awryly for his trolling.

Chris
01-08-2013, 08:47 AM
Ah ha. But in amongst the blizzard of neocon confetti, it also attracted a certain Dr Who. Who made rather a lot of refreshing sense.


Absolutely .
And elsewhere I also remark on this further UK contribution ---- direct or indirect . But never forgetting the inspired contributions of our Commonwealth friends ( Long may ANZAC be honoured).

P.S. Sometime we should introduce a Topic on international friends . This would be very educational for those not understanding or having any direct experience of the notions of Internationalism or Friendship .

As vacuous as the OP: What made sense?

Chris
01-08-2013, 08:49 AM
Ah ha. But in amongst the blizzard of neocon confetti, it also attracted a certain Dr Who. Who made rather a lot of refreshing sense.


You forgot one important thing ... Deny Deny Deny Deny Deny

Awryly is always denying his lies, plagiarism, racism, trolling, etc.

Cigar
01-08-2013, 08:51 AM
There's no denying who won the last Presidential Election

Carygrant
01-08-2013, 08:53 AM
IOW, you, cary, as another troll, praise awryly for his trolling.


And you as Site Troll Master do everything to distract people from the hard truth .
But we are after you now . Follow the rules from now on , for I certainly will ask for moderation every time I believe you are stepping out of line , including trying to play the sob story .
Remember your fall from grace as Moderator after you broke every rule in the book ? Be careful you don't repeat the same folly as a normal contributor .
From now on , feel free to use me as your role model . I am not one of those who demands payment for helping out others like you .

Chris
01-08-2013, 09:19 AM
Ah ha. But in amongst the blizzard of neocon confetti, it also attracted a certain Dr Who. Who made rather a lot of refreshing sense.


There's no denying who won the last Presidential Election

And the significance of Bush-clone Obama's narrow margin victory against another Bush-Clone Romney?

Chris
01-08-2013, 09:24 AM
And you as Site Troll Master do everything to distract people from the hard truth .
But we are after you now . Follow the rules from now on , for I certainly will ask for moderation every time I believe you are stepping out of line , including trying to play the sob story .
Remember your fall from grace as Moderator after you broke every rule in the book ? Be careful you don't repeat the same folly as a normal contributor .
From now on , feel free to use me as your role model . I am not one of those who demands payment for helping out others like you .

And you sir just continue to make things up. Not one thing you say there is true, not one thing you say can be backed up by facts. You seem to have the same compulsion as awryly to lie.

Let me back that up:


Remember your fall from grace as Moderator after you broke every rule in the book ?

That's what you say. Here's what a moderator says:


Chris was willing to mod this board when no one else would, and to do it during the day when no one else had time to do it...so I don't think it's a stretch to say that without him none of us would even have the chance to post here. He gave up the mod spot on his own, for his own reasons, and doesn't deserve to be dragged in the mud for doing it. It's a lousy job made harder by trying to be impartial to people who don't even try to keep up the same standard...if you want better modding start by setting the example as an individual and then maybe the site will draw the kind of members (and future mods) you hope to debate with. Peace.

@ http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/9056-Infracted-For?p=204961&viewfull=1#post204961


You've been caught in a lie.

And we know where the lie came from, don't we, cary, from awryly. Cracks me up that one troll one trust another troll.

Alif Qadr
01-08-2013, 11:42 AM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.


Awryly,
The same can be said about Liberals/Progressives and it would fit to an exact match. In the Liberal universe, up is down, black is white, males are females and vice versus. In this same universe, there is no right or wrong in anything because there are no binding laws to construct anything upon. In essence, in the Liberal/Progressive Universe everything is nothing and nothing is everything because there are no rules or solid guideposts to show a person whether or not they are on the right course. In a mind-maze such as this, all things are good because there are no successes or failures. No attempts at striving or rising above because there is no above or below. There is no rising because there is no falling. Everything remains constant because of inactivity.

Chris
01-08-2013, 11:56 AM
Awryly,
The same can be said about Liberals/Progressives and it would fit to an exact match. In the Liberal universe, up is down, black is white, males are females and vice versus. In this same universe, there is no right or wrong in anything because there are no binding laws to construct anything upon. In essence, in the Liberal/Progressive Universe everything is nothing and nothing is everything because there are no rules or solid guideposts to show a person whether or not they are on the right course. In a mind-maze such as this, all things are good because there are no successes or failures. No attempts at striving or rising above because there is no above or below. There is no rising because there is no falling. Everything remains constant because of inactivity.

What you're describing sounds like moral relativism.

Agravan
01-08-2013, 12:08 PM
There's no denying who won the last Presidential Election

No one has denied that, Goober.
Nice troll, tho.

Carygrant
01-08-2013, 01:57 PM
What you're describing sounds like moral relativism.


Only makes sense when you can find a label which seems to pigeon hole it .
No comprehension .

Mister D
01-08-2013, 01:58 PM
Only makes sense when you can find a label which seems to pigeon hole it .
No comprehension .

Actually, he's spot on. Stop flailing. You punch like a girl.

nic34
01-08-2013, 02:12 PM
Awryly,
The same can be said about Liberals/Progressives and it would fit to an exact match. In the Liberal universe, up is down, black is white, males are females and vice versus. In this same universe, there is no right or wrong in anything because there are no binding laws to construct anything upon. In essence, in the Liberal/Progressive Universe everything is nothing and nothing is everything because there are no rules or solid guideposts to show a person whether or not they are on the right course. In a mind-maze such as this, all things are good because there are no successes or failures. No attempts at striving or rising above because there is no above or below. There is no rising because there is no falling. Everything remains constant because of inactivity.

Says you.

You probably peddle that Obama won because he promised "free stuff" to all us lib-RALLS.

Progressives are not the ones out to take away your freedom, no, we believe in free thinking, and that morality is not exclusively a product of religion, while alif here clearly tells you that you must have guidance and "rules" to know right from wrong, black from white, etc. and so on....

Question really is, who's rules?

Chris
01-08-2013, 02:44 PM
Society's rules. Hayek argued it's not designed but spontaneous by group selection. Your group survives if it follows the right rules, guidelines, principles, etc.

nic34
01-08-2013, 04:12 PM
Survival of the fittest is not a civilized society.

Mister D
01-08-2013, 04:18 PM
Survival of the fittest is not a civilized society.

Who advocates survival of the fittest ?

Chris
01-08-2013, 04:18 PM
Survival of the fittest is not a civilized society.

Where do you see survival of the fittest? Evolution is more about adaptation to a changing environment, where what's most fit at one time can be least fit another. The point is man cannot design a society, civilized or not. Attempts to do so have ended up utter failure.

Uncle Slam
01-08-2013, 04:19 PM
This forum is a good example. American conservatives here seem to be programmed from birth to believe in fairy tales.

They seem to live in a parallel space where they can invent realities williy-nilly to suit their birth conditioning, facts that are myths, and interpretations that pay homage to their ambition to create the world in their own image. (Where have I heard that phrase before?)

My belief is that they think they are under siege. They know they are becoming an anachronism. And they don't like it. The world is moving on beyond their meagre ken. And they don't like that either.


True conservatism isn't represented anymore. You either have these "return to the good old days that never existed" nitwits or the ones who wrap the flag and the Bible around their "Party from God." None of that represents what true conservatism stands for. I'm a conservative, and Ted Nugent and Sarah Payoff don't represent me.

Until they get their acts squared away, they may continue to wither on the vine into non-existence because people are getting tired of fanatics on the left AND right. That's why there's fewer and fewer in political parties each year.

Mister D
01-08-2013, 04:19 PM
Where do you see survival of the fittest? Evolution is more about adaptation to a changing environment, where what's most fit at one time can be least fit another. The point is man cannot design a society, civilized or not. Attempts to do so have ended up utter failure.

Blood soaked failure.

Chris
01-08-2013, 04:21 PM
True conservatism...

IOW, awryly committed the no true Scotsman fallacy.

nic34
01-08-2013, 04:34 PM
I reject Hayek’s position on the nature of coercion and freedom.

Coercive governmental action, such as conscription, that he deems legitimate and in accordance with his "Rule of Law" is just one instance.

Chris
01-08-2013, 04:41 PM
I reject Hayek’s position on the nature of coercion and freedom.

Coercive governmental action, such as conscription, that he deems legitimate and in accordance with his "Rule of Law" is just one instance.

You reject and then agree with Hayek. Which is it?

Hayek didn't consider conscription coercive.

nic34
01-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Read his "rule of law".Rule of Law is the governance of society under a set of "rules" which do not discriminate among citizens, so are equal to all. An instance of such a law would be conscription.In fact his conclusion differs radically from that once made by Mr. William F. Buckley, Jr., that “conscription is the most naked form which tyranny assumes in our society today,” and appears to be inconsistent with Hayek’s own intention of laying down those principles which allow for a minimum of coercion in society.

Chris
01-08-2013, 05:03 PM
Read his "rule of law".Rule of Law is the governance of society under a set of "rules" which do not discriminate among citizens, so are equal to all. An instance of such a law would be conscription.In fact his conclusion differs radically from that once made by Mr. William F. Buckley, Jr., that “conscription is the most naked form which tyranny assumes in our society today,” and appears to be inconsistent with Hayek’s own intention of laying down those principles which allow for a minimum of coercion in society.

Do you mean his Constitution of Liberty? Read it years ago. Hayek advocated following the traditions and institutions that emerged spontaneously from society, though as a minarchist he did accept some use for government. Buckley was libertarian as well, perhaps a stricter libertarian.

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 06:21 PM
That may be worth a closer look. But you have forgotten a few things.

NZ came off a low unemployment base and the rate keeps going up 5 years after the little recession you got us into. And more and more people took off for Australia - hiding the true rate. In the US, the unemployment rate has substantially dropped from its peak of 10.2% two years ago. And looks set to improve further.

Our government has done nothing to promote job creation here. It just fiddles while Auckland burns and tries to cover its arse by raising taxes on petrol ("gas" to you) and selling our public assets. I guess it's hoping longer term that the Christchurch rebuild will provide the stimulus the economy needs.

Some policy: relying on natural disasters as a form of economic engineering.

You did not look at the real unemployment chart did you, we are still above 10% but the Obama adminstration has stopped counting people

We need about 3 million jobs to get back to Pre Crash numbers, and the policies of Obama will not give business what it needs to expand the economy

zelmo1234
01-08-2013, 06:24 PM
There's no denying who won the last Presidential Election

What do you hope that Obama acomplishes in the next 4 years? give us your bucket list?

Awryly
01-08-2013, 06:55 PM
You did not look at the real unemployment chart did you, we are still above 10% but the Obama adminstration has stopped counting people

We need about 3 million jobs to get back to Pre Crash numbers, and the policies of Obama will not give business what it needs to expand the economy


I thought we were talking about the NZ unemployment rate.

But, hey ho, what's the rate in Uzbekistan today?

Awryly
01-08-2013, 06:56 PM
What do you hope that Obama acomplishes in the next 4 years? give us your bucket list?

I doubt Cigar is planning to die just yet.

BB-35
01-08-2013, 09:20 PM
Ironic you talk about the ignorance of others,when you're such a shining example....

Awryly
01-08-2013, 09:25 PM
Ironic you talk about the ignorance of others,when you're such a shining example....

Tell me how.

Or was that just a throw-a-way line you read in a Chinese cracker at dinner last night?

Dr. Who
01-08-2013, 09:57 PM
Look, first, lets get one thing straight - I'm neither a Democrat, nor a Republican, or an anarachist or a communist or any other political affiliation you can think of. I am however both a realist and a humanist, and I'm at times a liberal and at times a conservative, depending on the issue. I accuse both parties of malfeasance over the years. I accuse both parties of pandering to the wealthy at the expense of the people. IMO most of the elected representatives are in the pockets of private lobbiests. I am just cynical enough to believe that nothing gets passed through Congress that doesn't ultimately benefit the wealthy. I happen to want to believe that Obama is a little different from most Presidents. I think he is an idealist, but I don't believe he will be allowed to really change anything for the better, because he will be shut down by the corporations that control government through Congress. None of policies he comes up with end up bearing much resemblance to the original notion, once they get compromised to the point of unworkability. I seriously think that current governments everywhere are suffering from the same sickness. I think people have traded despotic monarchies for despotic oligarchies and everything that plays out before the public is no more than theater. I also think that is up to people to pull back the curtain of deception and demand truth and honesty in government.

Chris
01-08-2013, 10:01 PM
the corporations that control government through Congress

Where do they get this power?

Awryly
01-08-2013, 10:04 PM
Look, first, lets get one thing straight - I'm neither a Democrat, nor a Republican, or an anarachist or a communist or any other political affiliation you can think of. I am however both a realist and a humanist, and I'm at times a liberal and at times a conservative, depending on the issue. I accuse both parties of malfeasance over the years. I accuse both parties of pandering to the wealthy at the expense of the people. IMO most of the elected representatives are in the pockets of private lobbiests. I am just cynical enough to believe that nothing gets passed through Congress that doesn't ultimately benefit the wealthy. I happen to want to believe that Obama is a little different from most Presidents. I think he is an idealist, but I don't believe he will be allowed to really change anything for the better, because he will be shut down by the corporations that control government through Congress. None of policies he comes up with end up bearing much resemblance to the original notion, once they get compromised to the point of unworkability. I seriously think that current governments everywhere are suffering from the same sickness. I think people have traded despotic monarchies for despotic oligarchies and everything that plays out before the public is no more than theater. I also think that is up to people to pull back the curtain of deception and demand truth and honesty in government.


Laudable sentiments. That I fully share. I too am conservative (with a small "c") on some issues and liberal on many others.

And i also believe Obama is trying to act in the best and broadest interests of his country.

The American problem is its division - as you imply. And I don't have to point out the effects of that.

But what, if there is one, is the remedy? The vested financial interests are running the agenda. Obama is doing what he can to fight back.

Maybe he can make the Republicans look silly and cynical enough to take the House in 2014. And then explode his fireworks.

Maybe by then, Americans will finally have figured out what is going on. People like Alex Jones should help that process.

But, as Henry Ford said, "You will never lose money by under-estimating the taste (I would add ignorance) of the American public". That also applies to politics.

Peter1469
01-08-2013, 10:13 PM
Where do they get this power?

Because (too many) congressmen prefer the gifts from lobbyists to honoring their oaths of office.

Dr. Who
01-08-2013, 10:29 PM
My friend, like Dr. Who, I am from everywhen and nowhere....

Dr. Who
01-08-2013, 10:53 PM
Let us begin with the fact that it is extremely expensive to get elected to office in the US. If you are not independently wealthy, you need wealthy supporters, after which you owe big favors. (Few politicians fundraise from the middle class and poor). Beyond that there are promises of lucrative positions in big corporations, should towing the party line ultimately result in the loss of their seat in government. Have you ever seen a Congressman or Senator not land in a six figure position after losing an election? Corporations are buying power by funding their chosen representatives. Once elected they are beholding to their benefactors a.k.a. lobbiests. Those who are independently wealthy already belong to the club of the few. They will not vote for policy that will diminish corporate profits. Need I say more?

Awryly
01-08-2013, 11:06 PM
Let us begin with the fact that it is extremely expensive to get elected to office in the US. If you are not independently wealthy, you need wealthy supporters, after which you owe big favors. (Few politicians fundraise from the middle class and poor). Beyond that there are promises of lucrative positions in big corporations, should towing the party line ultimately result in the loss of their seat in government. Have you ever seen a Congressman or Senator not land in a six figure position after losing an election? Corporations are buying power by funding their chosen representatives. Once elected they are beholding to their benefactors a.k.a. lobbiests. Those who are independently wealthy already belong to the club of the few. They will not vote for policy that will diminish corporate profits. Need I say more?

Oh yes. America has been bought. And it happened a dozen decades ago.

Americans didn't mind. There was more than enough to go round. Now there is not. There is a new reality. One they are unfamiliar with.

And now, as in the NY OWS protests, the rich - like JP Morgan did - are having to bribe the authorities (in this case it was the police) to represent their interests against ordinary Americans.

The way ahead is more fraught than at any time since the Civil War.

Chris
01-08-2013, 11:11 PM
Laudable sentiments. That I fully share. I too am conservative (with a small "c") on some issues and liberal on many others.

And i also believe Obama is trying to act in the best and broadest interests of his country.

The American problem is its division - as you imply. And I don't have to point out the effects of that.

But what, if there is one, is the remedy? The vested financial interests are running the agenda. Obama is doing what he can to fight back.

Maybe he can make the Republicans look silly and cynical enough to take the House in 2014. And then explode his fireworks.

Maybe by then, Americans will finally have figured out what is going on. People like Alex Jones should help that process.

But, as Henry Ford said, "You will never lose money by under-estimating the taste (I would add ignorance) of the American public". That also applies to politics.


I too am conservative

You, awryly, a conservative.... who believes in Obama...

:smiley_ROFLMAO::smiley_ROFLMAO::smiley_ROFLMAO:

And cary says I've got no sense of humor.

Chris
01-08-2013, 11:14 PM
Because (too many) congressmen prefer the gifts from lobbyists to honoring their oaths of office.

Indeed. While both collude, it is government with the power, a necessary evil, colluding with special interests, from the poor trading votes for social welfare to the rich trading campaign contribution for corporate welfare, the sufficient evils.

Chris
01-08-2013, 11:17 PM
Let us begin with the fact that it is extremely expensive to get elected to office in the US. If you are not independently wealthy, you need wealthy supporters, after which you owe big favors. (Few politicians fundraise from the middle class and poor). Beyond that there are promises of lucrative positions in big corporations, should towing the party line ultimately result in the loss of their seat in government. Have you ever seen a Congressman or Senator not land in a six figure position after losing an election? Corporations are buying power by funding their chosen representatives. Once elected they are beholding to their benefactors a.k.a. lobbiests. Those who are independently wealthy already belong to the club of the few. They will not vote for policy that will diminish corporate profits. Need I say more?

Just wanted to be precise, it is government with the power to control, and government corruption to allow itself to be controlled by special interests.

But it's not just the wealthy getting corporate welfare favors but the poor as well getting social welfare favors. A mix of conservative socialism and democratic socialism.

Chris
01-08-2013, 11:19 PM
Oh yes. America has been bought. And it happened a dozen decades ago.

Americans didn't mind. There was more than enough to go round. Now there is not. There is a new reality. One they are unfamiliar with.

And now, as in the NY OWS protests, the rich - like JP Morgan did - are having to bribe the authorities (in this case it was the police) to represent their interests against ordinary Americans.

The way ahead is more fraught than at any time since the Civil War.

Just as NZ is being bought and sold by corrupt politicians. That is the great weakness of democracy.

Awryly
01-08-2013, 11:37 PM
Let us begin with the fact that it is extremely expensive to get elected to office in the US. If you are not independently wealthy, you need wealthy supporters, after which you owe big favors. (Few politicians fundraise from the middle class and poor). Beyond that there are promises of lucrative positions in big corporations, should towing the party line ultimately result in the loss of their seat in government. Have you ever seen a Congressman or Senator not land in a six figure position after losing an election? Corporations are buying power by funding their chosen representatives. Once elected they are beholding to their benefactors a.k.a. lobbiests. Those who are independently wealthy already belong to the club of the few. They will not vote for policy that will diminish corporate profits. Need I say more?


You forgot this:

http://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/1212/c69bcdbe1178e6a45abf.jpeg

Not that NZ dollars have that effect in NZ.

Awryly
01-08-2013, 11:41 PM
Chris has been a busy boy.

Is he saying anything contrite?

pjohns
01-09-2013, 12:41 AM
To begin a thread with a logical fallacy (the plaintive query, "Why are conservative Americans so ignorant?" is an excellent example of the fallacy of the complex question: It assumes, within its premise, an unproven assertion), is surely most disturbing. It indicates either abysmal ignorance on the part of the poster (he just didn't know that he was committing a logical fallacy) or most unseemly tendentiousness.

Either way, it leaves the impression of the poster's being quite unserious...

Awryly
01-09-2013, 01:18 AM
To begin a thread with a logical fallacy (the plaintive query, "Why are conservative Americans so ignorant?" is an excellent example of the fallacy of the complex question: It assumes, within its premise, an unproven assertion), is surely most disturbing. It indicates either abysmal ignorance on the part of the poster (he just didn't know that he was committing a logical fallacy) or most unseemly tendentiousness.

Either way, it leaves the impression of the poster's being quite unserious...

Thank you for helping to resolve the matter on the side of ignorance.

You seem not to have noticed the statement was in the form of a question. It did not say "Americans are so ignorant". Thus it was open to opinions of any complexion.

Though I am beginning to think more and more that it should have been a certain statement.

Carygrant
01-09-2013, 03:43 AM
To begin a thread with a logical fallacy (the plaintive query, "Why are conservative Americans so ignorant?" is an excellent example of the fallacy of the complex question: It assumes, within its premise, an unproven assertion), is surely most disturbing. It indicates either abysmal ignorance on the part of the poster (he just didn't know that he was committing a logical fallacy) or most unseemly tendentiousness.

Either way, it leaves the impression of the poster's being quite unserious...

Deadly serious , but not expecting any American here to understand the case against them .
But taking headlines literally is the very type of perspective the Topic addresses -- albeit with a very low priority position .
Once again --- as a huge but relevant generalisation ( imo) -- far too many Americans are not able to comprehend complex matters or look for sub texts . The subject of General Comprehension is no longer taught outside of top independent schools .
Anybody doubting such a bold position should read any few threads here .

Awryly
01-09-2013, 04:47 AM
Deadly serious , but not expecting any American here to understand the case against them .
But taking headlines literally is the very type of perspective the Topic addresses -- albeit with a very low priority position .
Once again --- as a huge but relevant generalisation ( imo) -- far too many Americans are not able to comprehend complex matters or look for sub texts . The subject of General Comprehension is no longer taught outside of top independent schools .
Anybody doubting such a bold position should read any few threads here .

They have a poor education system. One must not expect it to turn out people able to think.

It seems to suit them.

And it helps them not to be able to comprehend that their country is becoming third-rate. In large part because they don't have a decent education system.

Carygrant
01-09-2013, 05:12 AM
Agree whole heartedly and it is a personal clarion cry . Poor Educational system , no general Comprehension classes , probably no spelling training when young and few if any Debating Societies .
But they take it so personally .
When you come second , third or fourth in a race or competition you try and behave with respect and dignity . Not this lot here . They immediately regress to childhood and name call , and we have continuous Trolling from the likes of one ex Moderator and one present one .
Who then have the temerity to turn their problems and failings onto us and try to paint us in the very colours that they stand tarnished in .
I guess I /We must be of the old school --- we respect and listen to our betters and never resort to dumb insolence and the use of , " Whatever "

Awryly
01-09-2013, 05:45 AM
Agree whole heartedly and it is a personal clarion cry . Poor Educational system , no general Comprehension classes , probably no spelling training when young and few if any Debating Societies .
But they take it so personally .
When you come second , third or fourth in a race or competition you try and behave with respect and dignity . Not this lot here . They immediately regress to childhood and name call , and we have continuous Trolling from the likes of one ex Moderator and one present one .
Who then have the temerity to turn their problems and failings onto us and try to paint us in the very colours that they stand tarnished in .
I guess I /We must be of the old school --- we respect and listen to our betters and never resort to dumb insolence and the use of , " Whatever "

It would be refreshing, possibly even stimulating, if they could present, at minimum, honest ideas.

I know they have their beliefs and, periodically, I have tried to understand from them themselves why they hold them.

It is a doomed endeavour. Their vulnerabilities seem to be too painful to become the subject of any real debate.

Chris
01-09-2013, 09:06 AM
Thank you for helping to resolve the matter on the side of ignorance.

You seem not to have noticed the statement was in the form of a question. It did not say "Americans are so ignorant". Thus it was open to opinions of any complexion.

Though I am beginning to think more and more that it should have been a certain statement.

Wrong. Even questions carry presuppositions, in this case the logical fallacy pjohns pointed out.

Chris
01-09-2013, 09:08 AM
It would be refreshing, possibly even stimulating, if they could present, at minimum, honest ideas.

I know they have their beliefs and, periodically, I have tried to understand from them themselves why they hold them.

It is a doomed endeavour. Their vulnerabilities seem to be too painful to become the subject of any real debate.

Your agreement with cary validates you committed the fallacy with "most unseemly tendentiousness".

Mister D
01-09-2013, 09:08 AM
Deadly serious , but not expecting any American here to understand the case against them .
But taking headlines literally is the very type of perspective the Topic addresses -- albeit with a very low priority position .
Once again --- as a huge but relevant generalisation ( imo) -- far too many Americans are not able to comprehend complex matters or look for sub texts . The subject of General Comprehension is no longer taught outside of top independent schools .
Anybody doubting such a bold position should read any few threads here .

Your commentary is almost impossible to decipher at times. How could you expect anyone to understand whatever it is you think you're saying?

Mister D
01-09-2013, 09:09 AM
They have a poor education system. One must not expect it to turn out people able to think.

It seems to suit them.

And it helps them not to be able to comprehend that their country is becoming third-rate. In large part because they don't have a decent education system.

I already used your own sources to prove that claim wrong. Twice, actually. :laugh:

Chris
01-09-2013, 09:09 AM
Deadly serious , but not expecting any American here to understand the case against them .
But taking headlines literally is the very type of perspective the Topic addresses -- albeit with a very low priority position .
Once again --- as a huge but relevant generalisation ( imo) -- far too many Americans are not able to comprehend complex matters or look for sub texts . The subject of General Comprehension is no longer taught outside of top independent schools .
Anybody doubting such a bold position should read any few threads here .


Deadly serious , but not expecting any American here to understand the case against them .

Then make the case. Your constant babbling doesn't cut it.

Awryly
01-09-2013, 09:20 AM
That got a rise. :grin:

Chris
01-09-2013, 09:26 AM
That got a rise. :grin:

Says the troll arguing from ignorance since I was not replying to you but cary. Doh! So much for the advantages of ignoring.

GrumpyDog
01-09-2013, 02:56 PM
The question should be: Why, some Americans, who call themselves Conservatives, would make absurd statements that clearly derailed Mitt Romney from the primary message of his economic proposals, to become mired in issues like abortion.

Another question: Why would some Democrats get themselves entangled, yet again, in the gun control argument, when more pressing issues are the Federal Budget, the National Debt, and whether the economy will ever recover?

My answer to both questions, is: Purposeful Distraction, while the Plutocracy enriches itself.

nic34
01-09-2013, 03:50 PM
Another question: Why would some Democrats get themselves entangled, yet again, in the gun control argument, when more pressing issues are the Federal Budget, the National Debt, and whether the economy will ever recover?

Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass shootings across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Twenty-five of these mass shootings have occurred since 2006, and 7 of them have taken place in 2012.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

It's time to reinstate the assault weapons ban.

Mister D
01-09-2013, 03:53 PM
Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass shootings across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Twenty-five of these mass shootings have occurred since 2006, and 7 of them have taken place in 2012.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

It's time to reinstate the assault weapons ban.

perusing your map one quickly learns that something like half were commited with pistols. Perhaps more.

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 03:59 PM
Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass shootings across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Twenty-five of these mass shootings have occurred since 2006, and 7 of them have taken place in 2012.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map


It's time to reinstate the assault weapons ban.

Ok what are you going to do with the hundreds of thousands of them that are in the hands of law abiding citizens?

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 04:07 PM
Using his charts we know that 75% or the guns were obtained illegally? So 75% of the crimes would still have happened.

And just using memory W. Virginia, Arizona and Fort Hood the guns were legally obtained but they were handguns!

So the assualt weapons ban would have done nothing for these 3 at least?

So why are we banning law abiding citizens from owning assult weapons? And if you really want to get them off the street, you have to take them from the law abiding citizens? What if they do not want to give them up?

Now what!

GrumpyDog
01-09-2013, 04:22 PM
Using his charts we know that 75% or the guns were obtained illegally? So 75% of the crimes would still have happened.

And just using memory W. Virginia, Arizona and Fort Hood the guns were legally obtained but they were handguns!

So the assualt weapons ban would have done nothing for these 3 at least?

So why are we banning law abiding citizens from owning assult weapons? And if you really want to get them off the street, you have to take them from the law abiding citizens? What if they do not want to give them up?

Now what!

New job opportunities await. ATF needs you today. Sign up now, and receive bonus for your first 10 arrests of citizens not wishing to comply. Military veterans, having experience driving armored vehicles
and/or, flying predator drones, are guaranteed employment, if within age limit of 34, and can pass physical fittness test.

Returning Afghanistan veterans have immediate approval, and will be employed with guaranteed pay bonus. Start your new, professional career today. Your country, and your President, need your cooperation, and your help.

nic34
01-09-2013, 04:31 PM
Real funny. Glad your kids weren't the ones shot.

Awryly
01-09-2013, 04:34 PM
Ok what are you going to do with the hundreds of thousands of them that are in the hands of law abiding citizens?

That's an extremely sloppy question that totally evades the issue.

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 04:49 PM
That's an extremely sloppy question that avoids the issue.

No it does not avoid the issue, there are hundreds of thousands of these weapons on the street in the hands of law abiding citizens.

If you ban them, it does not take them off the street, 75% of the shooting were made with illegal guns. (stolen) At least 3 of the shooting comited with legal guns were not assult weapons. So that is now over 80% of the shooting that you could not ahve prevented with his proposed assult weapons ban.

So you have to get them off the streets, there are some citizens that will turn them in lets say that number is 85% so you have 15% or about of quarter of a million people that say no you can't have it.

What are you going to do? Are you going to cme and get them like Grumpy suggested in a humorous way. And if you do decide to come and get them there are going to be casualties on both sides. Now do you think that american citizens are goiing to agree with the police or military gunning down citizens that have never done anything wrong accept buy a legal gun that is now illegal? And if you are a police officer are you going to go and try to confiscate and arrest people that have never done anything wrong? knowing that you may very well be killed in the process?

If they go the route of Gun confiscation it is going to get ulgy. And let me say that I seriously doubt that with the liencing that I have and the fact that the US government might still consider me useful in doing some unpleasant task that political correctness prevents them from doing, will take my personal stash, but if they did want them, they could buy them back from me at a considerable prfit to myself. Of I would sell them to people that did not plan on giving them up before they dicided to come and get them.

So it is very serious question, what would you do!

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 04:51 PM
New job opportunities await. ATF needs you today. Sign up now, and receive bonus for your first 10 arrests of citizens not wishing to comply. Military veterans, having experience driving armored vehicles
and/or, flying predator drones, are guaranteed employment, if within age limit of 34, and can pass physical fittness test.

Returning Afghanistan veterans have immediate approval, and will be employed with guaranteed pay bonus. Start your new, professional career today. Your country, and your President, need your cooperation, and your help.

First I understand your humor? but if they persue this plan, do you think that the american people would stand for it, and then what would be yoru acceptable losses!

Awryly
01-09-2013, 04:57 PM
No it does not avoid the issue, there are hundreds of thousands of these weapons on the street in the hands of law abiding citizens.

If you ban them, it does not take them off the street, 75% of the shooting were made with illegal guns. (stolen) At least 3 of the shooting comited with legal guns were not assult weapons. So that is now over 80% of the shooting that you could not ahve prevented with his proposed assult weapons ban.

So you have to get them off the streets, there are some citizens that will turn them in lets say that number is 85% so you have 15% or about of quarter of a million people that say no you can't have it.

What are you going to do? Are you going to cme and get them like Grumpy suggested in a humorous way. And if you do decide to come and get them there are going to be casualties on both sides. Now do you think that american citizens are goiing to agree with the police or military gunning down citizens that have never done anything wrong accept buy a legal gun that is now illegal? And if you are a police officer are you going to go and try to confiscate and arrest people that have never done anything wrong? knowing that you may very well be killed in the process?

If they go the route of Gun confiscation it is going to get ulgy. And let me say that I seriously doubt that with the liencing that I have and the fact that the US government might still consider me useful in doing some unpleasant task that political correctness prevents them from doing, will take my personal stash, but if they did want them, they could buy them back from me at a considerable prfit to myself. Of I would sell them to people that did not plan on giving them up before they dicided to come and get them.

So it is very serious question, what would you do!

So can you back up your sweeping statements with any facts? I don't see any of your usual plethora of misguiding links.

GrumpyDog
01-09-2013, 04:58 PM
Real funny. Glad your kids weren't the ones shot.

The cure you are advocating, is worse than the symptom.

What is the point of sending armed people from one side of the political spectrum, to go kill people who are also armed, but otherwise have commited no crime, just to enforce a new ban law, which will not prevent a determined crazy person from killing, using any number of methods available in a free society?

GrumpyDog
01-09-2013, 05:06 PM
First I understand your humor? but if they persue this plan, do you think that the american people would stand for it, and then what would be yoru acceptable losses!

Just trying to prevent the Democrats from shooting themselves in the foot again, and losing on this non issue, which has been ruled upon by the Supreme Court, as an "individual" right.

Awryly
01-09-2013, 05:17 PM
New job opportunities await. ATF needs you today. Sign up now, and receive bonus for your first 10 arrests of citizens not wishing to comply. Military veterans, having experience driving armored vehicles
and/or, flying predator drones, are guaranteed employment, if within age limit of 34, and can pass physical fittness test.

Returning Afghanistan veterans have immediate approval, and will be employed with guaranteed pay bonus. Start your new, professional career today. Your country, and your President, need your cooperation, and your help.
Other countries under siege do it.

Israel, Somalia ..........spring slowly to mind.

Dr. Who
01-09-2013, 06:17 PM
They have a poor education system. One must not expect it to turn out people able to think.

It seems to suit them.

And it helps them not to be able to comprehend that their country is becoming third-rate. In large part because they don't have a decent education system.

The February 2012 U.S. Illiteracy Statistics - U.S. Department of Education:



U.S. Illiteracy Statistics
Data


Percent of U.S. adults who can’t read
14 %


Number of U.S. adults who can’t read
32 Million


Percent of U.S. adults who read below a 5th grade level
21 %


Percent of prison inmates who can’t read
63 %


Percent of high school graduates who can’t read
19 %

Awryly
01-09-2013, 06:20 PM
The February 2012 U.S. Illiteracy Statistics - U.S. Department of Education:



U.S. Illiteracy Statistics
Data


Percent of U.S. adults who can’t read

14 %


Number of U.S. adults who can’t read
32 Million


Percent of U.S. adults who read below a 5th grade level
21 %


Percent of prison inmates who can’t read
63 %


Percent of high school graduates who can’t read
19 %





I hope someone has trained them to watch television. Especially FoxNews.

Mister D
01-09-2013, 06:45 PM
The February 2012 U.S. Illiteracy Statistics - U.S. Department of Education:



U.S. Illiteracy Statistics
Data


Percent of U.S. adults who can’t read
14 %


Number of U.S. adults who can’t read
32 Million


Percent of U.S. adults who read below a 5th grade level
21 %


Percent of prison inmates who can’t read
63 %


Percent of high school graduates who can’t read
19 %




Around 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 07:19 PM
So can you back up your sweeping statements with any facts? I don't see any of your usual plethora of misguiding links.

All of those numbers were taken from the thread starters link. His facts! And I know that you hate it when I link to your governments own web pages? So are you saying that the NEW ZEALAND Gov is lying to the world?

So now that you once again have proven that yur don't know Jack is there any other question that I can answer for you?

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 07:22 PM
Just trying to prevent the Democrats from shooting themselves in the foot again, and losing on this non issue, which has been ruled upon by the Supreme Court, as an "individual" right.

I thnk that it is too late to stop them, they are going to try through excutive order this time. Just like Republicans they can't help but fall on the sword!

Setting them up for a really rotten 2014. Maybe inve super majorities in the house and senate, that would be fun for obama

Carygrant
01-09-2013, 07:53 PM
I hope someone has trained them to watch television. Especially FoxNews.


Very interesting programme on BBC Radio 4 that I listened to as I was driving earlier .
Clear links in America of atmospheric and water supply levels of lead to violence . The more lead , the crazier the person . Correlation amazingly close at something like the 99% confidence level .
Very pronounced from young school age onwards and those in prison had on average much higher lead levels versus non convicted people .
Apparently there is a lot of research comparing Nations , American States and American Cities .
I shall be checking it all out when I have some spare time . Wonder if we could get lead levels checked out among extreme right wingers compared to their more docile and higher IQ ( ?) left wing brothers and sisters . I dread to think of the lead levels of some people here .Yes , there is a link between lead contamination and IQ .
The research has been going on for at least forty years .

Mister D
01-09-2013, 07:56 PM
Britain has up to eight million adults who are functionally illiterate, a report out today revealed.

The World Literacy Foundation said one in five of the UK population are so poor at reading and writing they struggle to read a medicine label or use a chequebook.




'The fact that over six million people in the UK are illiterate and many more people struggle to read and write is shocking in 2012.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122007/Illiterate-Britain-One-adults-struggling-read-write-t-use-chequebook.html


:grin:

Mister D
01-09-2013, 08:00 PM
More than a million New Zealand adults are being held back because they lack essential literacy and numeracy skills, the tertiary education minister says.

Speaking today at a symposium for literacy and numeracy for adult educators, Tertiary Education Minister Steven Joyce said it is the government's priority to improve New Zealand's track record in this area.



http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3922718/Minister-blasts-poor-Kiwi-literacy-rates

:grin:

GrassrootsConservative
01-09-2013, 08:04 PM
Lol you didn't hear?

zelmo1234
01-09-2013, 08:04 PM
Should really get the lead level in your country checked out if It leads to violence, or are you trying to unseat Austrailia next year and take over the #1 spot on the most violent wealthy nation?

Maybe you could clean up your cities a little too, if they did not have to deal with the filth, they might get along a little better.

http://europe.amateurtraveler.com/europes-dirtiest-cities/

Mister D
01-09-2013, 08:07 PM
Should really get the lead level in your country checked out if It leads to violence, or are you trying to unseat Austrailia next year and take over the #1 spot on the most violent wealthy nation?

Maybe you could clean up your cities a little too, if they did not have to deal with the filth, they might get along a little better.

http://europe.amateurtraveler.com/europes-dirtiest-cities/

They're on it.


Lead poisoning in children is associated with a range of effects, including reduction in IQ and disruptive behaviour. Changes in the law have removed many sources of lead from the environment, such as the European requirement for all new cars to run on unleaded petrol from 1990, and this has led to a decrease in levels of lead in blood in the population. However, it is known that a small number of children are still being exposed to harmful levels of lead, for example from old lead paint.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/chemicals/slic

Dr. Who
01-09-2013, 09:23 PM
Around 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?

And 63% of prison inmates are foreign born?

Mister D
01-09-2013, 09:27 PM
And 63% of prison inmates are foreign born?

No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?

Why do American progressives feel compelled to slobber over every foreign knob they're offered? Seriously, you embarrass yourself and your country.

GrumpyDog
01-09-2013, 09:50 PM
Very interesting programme on BBC Radio 4 that I listened to as I was driving earlier .
Clear links in America of atmospheric and water supply levels of lead to violence . The more lead , the crazier the person . Correlation amazingly close at something like the 99% confidence level .
Very pronounced from young school age onwards and those in prison had on average much higher lead levels versus non convicted people .
Apparently there is a lot of research comparing Nations , American States and American Cities .
I shall be checking it all out when I have some spare time . Wonder if we could get lead levels checked out among extreme right wingers compared to their more docile and higher IQ ( ?) left wing brothers and sisters . I dread to think of the lead levels of some people here .Yes , there is a link between lead contamination and IQ .
The research has been going on for at least forty years .

What is the cause of insanity in Britain? Must be all those dead ghosts roaming around in the bell towers, cathedrals, and shattered remains of a former failed Crusader empire.

pjohns
01-09-2013, 09:53 PM
Well, I see that this thread has been transmuted from its original assertion that "conservative" Americans are "ignorant" to its new thesis, viz. that Americans in general are ignorant.

Since the former assertion didn't quite fly, I suppose it was inevitable that it would be modified...

Awryly
01-09-2013, 09:57 PM
Should really get the lead level in your country checked out if It leads to violence, or are you trying to unseat Austrailia next year and take over the #1 spot on the most violent wealthy nation?

Maybe you could clean up your cities a little too, if they did not have to deal with the filth, they might get along a little better.

http://europe.amateurtraveler.com/europes-dirtiest-cities/

The guy says he is an "amateur". I believe him.

As I would believe you if you said you were an amateur.

Awryly
01-09-2013, 09:58 PM
And 63% of prison inmates are foreign born?


They have to be. If they were not, there would be a lesser American dream.

No whites go to jail in the US. Don't you know that?

(It's their skin colour that keeps them pure.)

Awryly
01-09-2013, 10:01 PM
Well, I see that this thread has been transmuted from its original assertion that "conservative" Americans are "ignorant" to its new thesis, viz. that Americans in general are ignorant.

Since the former assertion didn't quite fly, I suppose it was inevitable that it would be modified...

A hearty observation, to be sure. To be sure.

Awryly
01-09-2013, 10:02 PM
What is the cause of insanity in Britain? Must be all those dead ghosts roaming around in the bell towers, cathedrals, and shattered remains of a former failed Crusader empire.


They live on an island smaller than NZ. 62 million of them.

They're entitled to get a little stir-crazy.

Dr. Who
01-10-2013, 12:08 AM
No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?
[QUOTE=Mister D;213073]No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?

Why do American progressives feel compelled to slobber over every foreign knob they're offered? Seriously, you embarrass yourself and your country.

There is a statistical correlation between illiteracy and crime. If 63 percent of the prison population is illiterate and not all are foreign born (likely mostly not foreign born), then I would suggest that education, or the lack thereof, is a factor that you may not automatically dismiss as being extrinsic to your argument. FYI - my experience with immigrants is that they are often more fluent in the english language than the native born. Not all immigrants are uneducated. Those who arrive without the requisite linguistic skills are often far more motivated than the domestic population to acquire those skills, not to mention the scores of foreign born who place above all else, the opportunity for their children to obtain an education.

The US has a very poor track record with respect to achieving literacy in inner city schools, particularly due to the lack of appropriate funding. If the tax base of an area is exclusively responsible for the funding of the schools in that area, then it follows that children attending schools in economically depressed areas are likely receiving sub par educations. This would also include poor rural towns throughout America. This does not even touch on the prevalence of the functionally illiterate in society. Lack of literacy does affect people's ability to fully understand the complexity of political arguments and often results in people being overwhelmingly influenced by those community leaders who are expected to fully understand the political debates and pass on the unbiased truth. This works both ways - in some areas in favor of the liberals, and in others, in favor of the conservatives.

It is also a mistake to assume that I am an either an American or a progressive, as you have no such supportive information.

GrumpyDog
01-10-2013, 01:12 AM
They live on an island smaller than NZ. 62 million of them.

They're entitled to get a little stir-crazy.

That word "entitled" is causing a lot of uproar in USA. Our Lying King has been reelected, somehow, and feels he is entitled now, to become the Uber Capitalist he really is.

His new all white male "advisory" staff, rivals the all white male panel the Republicans assembled to discuss womens reproductive rights.

It is quite alarming, to see such flippingr, even after the watching the other flipper nose dive into oblivion.

They must be related by distant relations, somehow. Somewhere, one of those 14 wives of Grandpappy Romney, must have been a Kenyan woman.

Awryly
01-10-2013, 04:02 AM
[QUOTE=Mister D;213073]No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?


There is a statistical correlation between illiteracy and crime. If 63 percent of the prison population is illiterate and not all are foreign born (likely mostly not foreign born), then I would suggest that education, or the lack thereof, is a factor that you may not automatically dismiss as being extrinsic to your argument. FYI - my experience with immigrants is that they are often more fluent in the english language than the native born. Not all immigrants are uneducated. Those who arrive without the requisite linguistic skills are often far more motivated than the domestic population to acquire those skills, not to mention the scores of foreign born who place above all else, the opportunity for their children to obtain an education.

The US has a very poor track record with respect to achieving literacy in inner city schools, particularly due to the lack of appropriate funding. If the tax base of an area is exclusively responsible for the funding of the schools in that area, then it follows that children attending schools in economically depressed areas are likely receiving sub par educations. This would also include poor rural towns throughout America. This does not even touch on the prevalence of the functionally illiterate in society. Lack of literacy does affect people's ability to fully understand the complexity of political arguments and often results in people being overwhelmingly influenced by those community leaders who are expected to fully understand the political debates and pass on the unbiased truth. This works both ways - in some areas in favor of the liberals, and in others, in favor of the conservatives.

It is also a mistake to assume that I am an either an American or a progressive, as you have no such supportive information.

It is constantly blessed by politicians that their electorates are generally too dumb and misinformed to have a clue what they're doing.

Shoot a bunch of school-kids and suddenly everyone thinks they are qualified to decide government policy.

Uncle Slam
01-10-2013, 07:19 AM
[QUOTE=Mister D;213073]No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?


There is a statistical correlation between illiteracy and crime. If 63 percent of the prison population is illiterate and not all are foreign born (likely mostly not foreign born), then I would suggest that education, or the lack thereof, is a factor that you may not automatically dismiss as being extrinsic to your argument. FYI - my experience with immigrants is that they are often more fluent in the english language than the native born. Not all immigrants are uneducated. Those who arrive without the requisite linguistic skills are often far more motivated than the domestic population to acquire those skills, not to mention the scores of foreign born who place above all else, the opportunity for their children to obtain an education.

The US has a very poor track record with respect to achieving literacy in inner city schools, particularly due to the lack of appropriate funding. If the tax base of an area is exclusively responsible for the funding of the schools in that area, then it follows that children attending schools in economically depressed areas are likely receiving sub par educations. This would also include poor rural towns throughout America. This does not even touch on the prevalence of the functionally illiterate in society. Lack of literacy does affect people's ability to fully understand the complexity of political arguments and often results in people being overwhelmingly influenced by those community leaders who are expected to fully understand the political debates and pass on the unbiased truth. This works both ways - in some areas in favor of the liberals, and in others, in favor of the conservatives.

It is also a mistake to assume that I am an either an American or a progressive, as you have no such supportive information.

I teach in a prison - all are different. I know ours isn't packed full of illiterates. In fact, before they come to my high school some have to take literacy training. Many do go on to graduate.

patrickt
01-10-2013, 08:00 AM
Does anyone see the irony of Awryly asking why anyone is ignorant?

nic34
01-10-2013, 09:06 AM
The cure you are advocating, is worse than the symptom.

What is the point of sending armed people from one side of the political spectrum, to go kill people who are also armed, but otherwise have commited no crime, just to enforce a new ban law, which will not prevent a determined crazy person from killing, using any number of methods available in a free society?

This is the crap I just got in my junk email:

Maybe you want to call it the Gabby Giffords just for fun...

http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/colt-legislator.jpg

Carygrant
01-10-2013, 09:43 AM
Our Lying King has been reelected, somehow,

.


Democratic due process is not enough for GD ?
Or have we all missed something that just you have unearthed ?

Mister D
01-10-2013, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE=Mister D;213073]No. Would you expect high rates of literacy in prison? Perhaps a mostly college educated population?

Again, 12 to 13% of the US population is foreign born. When we import tens of millions of unskilled and uneducated people what do you think will happen? Do you think the illiteracy rate will go down?


There is a statistical correlation between illiteracy and crime. If 63 percent of the prison population is illiterate and not all are foreign born (likely mostly not foreign born), then I would suggest that education, or the lack thereof, is a factor that you may not automatically dismiss as being extrinsic to your argument. FYI - my experience with immigrants is that they are often more fluent in the english language than the native born. Not all immigrants are uneducated. Those who arrive without the requisite linguistic skills are often far more motivated than the domestic population to acquire those skills, not to mention the scores of foreign born who place above all else, the opportunity for their children to obtain an education.

The US has a very poor track record with respect to achieving literacy in inner city schools, particularly due to the lack of appropriate funding. If the tax base of an area is exclusively responsible for the funding of the schools in that area, then it follows that children attending schools in economically depressed areas are likely receiving sub par educations. This would also include poor rural towns throughout America. This does not even touch on the prevalence of the functionally illiterate in society. Lack of literacy does affect people's ability to fully understand the complexity of political arguments and often results in people being overwhelmingly influenced by those community leaders who are expected to fully understand the political debates and pass on the unbiased truth. This works both ways - in some areas in favor of the liberals, and in others, in favor of the conservatives.

It is also a mistake to assume that I am an either an American or a progressive, as you have no such supportive information.

The rate of illiteracy among inmates is even higher in the UK. That's probably true all over the world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/03/illiteracy-innumeracy-prisons

Again, what would you expect in prison? A college educated population? Would you expect to see them all pursuing doctorates?

Anyway, I'm sure your anecdotes about immigrants are charming but they are meaningless. The US has imported tens of millions of poor, unskilled, and uneducated migrants. What effect do you think this has had on our illiteracy rate let alone our poverty rate? We both know the answer to that. Those rates have risen significantly. Yes, the US does do a very poor job but only because we import the very things we say we're fighting.

The US spends generously on education. In fact, we spend significantly more than other western countries who get better results. No, certain populations have a very poor track record in terms of academic achievement. It is not the fault of the "US". In fact, certain populations also have a poor track record in terms of academic achievement in both New Zealand and the UK. Perhaps you should not be so quick to slobber over every foreign knob you're offered. You embarrass yourself and your country.

Chris
01-10-2013, 10:26 AM
Does anyone see the irony of Awryly asking why anyone is ignorant?

Yes, but, ironically still further, he is ignorant of the irony.

Carygrant
01-10-2013, 03:38 PM
Yes, but, ironically still further, he is ignorant of the irony.


You need to have huge talent to get away with being patronising. It has a horrible tendency to highlight the opposite from intended .
Something which you have yet again so ably confirmed .
Incidentally your disciple is now posting to his previous posts .

Mister D
01-10-2013, 03:40 PM
You need to have huge talent to get away with being patronising. It has a horrible tendency to highlight the opposite from intended .
Something which you have yet again so ably confirmed .
Incidentally your disciple is now posting to his previous posts .

keep working on your prose, Cary. :smiley:

Oh, and that was Dr. Who's post genius.

Chris
01-10-2013, 03:53 PM
You need to have huge talent to get away with being patronising. It has a horrible tendency to highlight the opposite from intended .
Something which you have yet again so ably confirmed .
Incidentally your disciple is now posting to his previous posts .

Hey, I understood what you said, miracle of miracles! Well, all but that last bit of babel.

But, where am I being patronizing? All the rest stands, or falls, on this premise.

Uncle Slam
01-10-2013, 04:20 PM
Back to the original topic of the thread, could this be a reason?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Uq3iGESYM

Awryly
01-10-2013, 06:55 PM
Back to the original topic of the thread, could this be a reason?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Uq3iGESYM

It certainly appears to be a convincing demonstration of the effects of ignorance. And, with such effects, there must be a contributing cause.

I assume there is a correlation between a lack of education, obesity, and a tendency to stick noodles up one's nose?

I'm sure C or D will have figures to establish it.

Or could make some up?

GrumpyDog
01-10-2013, 07:20 PM
This is the crap I just got in my junk email:

Maybe you want to call it the Gabby Giffords just for fun...

http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/colt-legislator.jpg


Good luck to your side. They will crash and burn, once again, on the foundation of the 2nd amendment, and their beloved One will probably get himself impeached by proclaiming an executive order in violation of the Bill of Rights.

Or worse, there will be a civil war, which will be caused by ATF being reactivated to bash peoples doors down, trying to force law abiding citizens to abide by the new unconstitutional decree from the King.

zelmo1234
01-10-2013, 07:25 PM
We serve no soverns here!

Awryly
01-10-2013, 07:44 PM
"
We serve no soverns here!

Assuming "soverns" is akin to "sovereigns", I regret to inform you that that Koch brothers have now accused and convicted you of treason for not knowing who your "soverns" are.

Your personal death squad is on its way. Greet them with relief.

zelmo1234
01-10-2013, 09:44 PM
"

Assuming "soverns" is akin to "sovereigns", I regret to inform you that that Koch brothers have now accused and convicted you of treason for not knowing who your "soverns" are.

Your personal death squad is on its way. Greet them with relief.

Good thing I am allow to keep and bare arms :danceshout:

But I have actually had the pleaseure of meeting one of them, and I have no worries.

Now if it were soros, little georgy is all about controling other people's lives

Dr. Who
01-10-2013, 10:05 PM
Of course 63 percent is not all. There is more than just illiteracy at the root of criminal behavior, but I'm sure the rate of recidivism is reduced when your graduates are actually capable of qualifying for jobs.

Dr. Who
01-10-2013, 10:10 PM
Being able to keep your arms bare, has never been an issue. What is "soros"?

Mister D
01-10-2013, 10:18 PM
Of course 63 percent is not all. There is more than just illiteracy at the root of criminal behavior, but I'm sure the rate of recidivism is reduced when your graduates are actually capable of qualifying for jobs.

No doubt but whose responsibility is that?

Dr. Who
01-10-2013, 11:27 PM
Just wanted to be precise, it is government with the power to control, and government corruption to allow itself to be controlled by special interests.

But it's not just the wealthy getting corporate welfare favors but the poor as well getting social welfare favors. A mix of conservative socialism and democratic socialism.

The government is comprised of individuals. Some, or even many, choose to put their political aspirations above conflict of interest considerations. Even when the conflict is obvious, voters cannot put aside their political bias and will vote for an undeserving candidate. This corruption has become endemic because of the financial cost of political candidacy. Few, but the very rich, can fund their own campaigns. Perhaps all candidates should be allocated a specific campaign fund by the government which includes pre-paid allocated media time. You could then be assured of an equal playing field with no special interest intervention and no favors owed after the election.

Clearly welfare has grown into a dysfunctional organism. It has grown inmultiple directions without a plan, much like cities that lack urban planning.It is like a band aid on a wound, but without addressing the underlying trauma,the patient lives a little longer, but eventually succumbs to the injury. On the other hand you cannot simply abandon the poor and indigent to their own devices, else, like in third world countries, disease which has been virtually eliminated in the first world will become epidemic, crime rates will escalate and people will die on the streets. Never mind the fact that the average non-poor citizen would be appalled at the lack of social conscience and become ever more fearful for their own continued well being. The tax dollars taken from welfare would be redeployed in increased policing and the construction of jails. The welfare system should combine monetary assistance with education, counseling, family planning and employment strategies. Schools, beyond teaching the three Rs, science, history and literature, should also teach fundamental life skills such as saving; investment; how credit works - compound interest; the concept of delayed gratification etc. Were that subject matter taught in the last twenty years, people would have been aware of the implication of high ratio mortgages and balloon payments and we wouldn't have a Global Credit Crisis plaguing the planet.

Awryly
01-11-2013, 12:41 AM
The government is comprised of individuals. Some, or even many, choose to put their political aspirations above conflict of interest considerations. Even when the conflict is obvious, voters cannot put aside their political bias and will vote for an undeserving candidate. This corruption has become endemic because of the financial cost of political candidacy. Few, but the very rich, can fund their own campaigns. Perhaps all candidates should be allocated a specific campaign fund by the government which includes pre-paid allocated media time. You could then be assured of an equal playing field with no special interest intervention and no favors owed after the election.

[QUOTE]



Clearly welfare has grown into a dysfunctional organism. It has grown inmultiple directions without a plan, much like cities that lack urban planning.It is like a band aid on a wound, but without addressing the underlying trauma,the patient lives a little longer, but eventually succumbs to the injury. On the other hand you cannot simply abandon the poor and indigent to their own devices, else, like in third world countries, disease which has been virtually eliminated in the first world will become epidemic, crime rates will escalate and people will die on the streets. Never mind the fact that the average non-poor citizen would be appalled at the lack of social conscience and become ever more fearful for their own continued well being. The tax dollars taken from welfare would be redeployed in increased policing and the construction of jails. The welfare system should combine monetary assistance with education, counseling, family planning and employment strategies. Schools, beyond teaching the three Rs, science, history and literature, should also teach fundamental life skills such as saving; investment; how credit works - compound interest; the concept of delayed gratification etc. Were that subject matter taught in the last twenty years, people would have been aware of the implication of high ratio mortgages and balloon payments and we wouldn't have a Global Credit Crisis plaguing the planet.

We had a bit of a kerfuffle in the 2005 election. A Christian group slipped under the radar only to be discovered and deservedly losing a rightwing party that was in the lead any chance at government.

Campaign finance is critical to the democratic process. We now have rules that keep "donations"/bribes low and require full disclosure of who makes them.

What are the new electoral finance rules?

The changes to the Electoral Act 1993 by the Electoral (Finance Reform and Advance Voting) Amendment Act 2010 will ensure greater certainty and transparency in the conduct of the electoral process.
The key changes include:


modernising the definition of 'election advertisement' so it is media neutral and has clear exceptions
adding a new definition of ‘regulated period’ to avoid retrospective application and provide more certainty about when the regulated period will commence
clarifying that Parliamentary Service funding is not available for an election advertisement published during the regulated period
increasing the amount of money that parties and candidates can spend on election campaigning
establishing a regime for third party promoters (people other than candidates and political parties):





requiring registration for those who intend to spend more than $12,000 (GST incl) on election advertising during the regulated period
requiring expense returns from those who spend more than $100,000 (GST incl) on election advertising during the regulated period
establishing a maximum expenditure limit of $300,000 (GST incl) on election advertising during the regulated period



http://www.justice.govt.nz/electoral/electoral-finance-reform/frequently-asked-questions#what-are-the-new

Being accused of campaign rigging over the limits is the kiss of death here. And until it is in the US, every American will continue to serve their corporate masters and do whatever they're told to do.

So much for "freedom (*tm) and "liberty" (*tm).

Dr. Who
01-11-2013, 12:55 AM
I agree. More regulation required to ensure honesty and transparency in elections. It is patently unfair for people to vote for " a pig in a poke". Are expense returns examined for single large donations in NZ?

Awryly
01-11-2013, 01:02 AM
I agree. More regulation required to ensure honesty and transparency in elections. It is patently unfair for people to vote for " a pig in a poke". Are expense returns examined for single large donations in NZ?

Yes. A current cabinet minister tried to circumvent the rules by persuading a donor to split a $50k donation into two separate donations of $25k each (below the threshold for disclosure under local government rules) when he stood for mayor of Auckland.

He was caught, lied handsomely but lamely to the media, and is hanging on to his current job by his nails. He will never get re-elected.

Dr. Who
01-11-2013, 02:32 AM
Clearly rules do work - if not immediately, over time.

Awryly
01-11-2013, 02:51 AM
Clearly rules do work - if not immediately, over time.

What it means is that we can confidently vote for a party (there are 7 in our current legislature - unlike America's 2 which are actually one) knowing what they stand for and what their associations are.

It's a very refreshing and corruption-free way to run a democracy.

Which experience generates the fascinated horror I feel when I look at what happens in the US.

Carygrant
01-11-2013, 03:12 AM
[QUOTE=Dr. Who;213756]
We had a bit of a kerfuffle in the 2005 election. A Christian group slipped under the radar only to be discovered.



Rather slipshod .
You should have kicked them to death .Or crucified them.

Awryly
01-11-2013, 03:35 AM
[QUOTE=Awryly;213781]


Rather slipshod .
You should have kicked them to death .Or crucified them.

They were a bunch of wealthy Exclusive Brethren businessmen who were well aware that the odour of being (a) Christian extremists and (b) election manipulators would not go down well with the NZ electorate. So they tried to hide their involvement.

It didn't work, thanks to an alert media.

zelmo1234
01-11-2013, 05:57 AM
[QUOTE=Awryly;213781]


Rather slipshod .
You should have kicked them to death .Or crucified them.

might be why you have that violence problem in your country

Chris
01-11-2013, 09:30 AM
The government is comprised of individuals. Some, or even many, choose to put their political aspirations above conflict of interest considerations. Even when the conflict is obvious, voters cannot put aside their political bias and will vote for an undeserving candidate. This corruption has become endemic because of the financial cost of political candidacy. Few, but the very rich, can fund their own campaigns. Perhaps all candidates should be allocated a specific campaign fund by the government which includes pre-paid allocated media time. You could then be assured of an equal playing field with no special interest intervention and no favors owed after the election.

Clearly welfare has grown into a dysfunctional organism. It has grown inmultiple directions without a plan, much like cities that lack urban planning.It is like a band aid on a wound, but without addressing the underlying trauma,the patient lives a little longer, but eventually succumbs to the injury. On the other hand you cannot simply abandon the poor and indigent to their own devices, else, like in third world countries, disease which has been virtually eliminated in the first world will become epidemic, crime rates will escalate and people will die on the streets. Never mind the fact that the average non-poor citizen would be appalled at the lack of social conscience and become ever more fearful for their own continued well being. The tax dollars taken from welfare would be redeployed in increased policing and the construction of jails. The welfare system should combine monetary assistance with education, counseling, family planning and employment strategies. Schools, beyond teaching the three Rs, science, history and literature, should also teach fundamental life skills such as saving; investment; how credit works - compound interest; the concept of delayed gratification etc. Were that subject matter taught in the last twenty years, people would have been aware of the implication of high ratio mortgages and balloon payments and we wouldn't have a Global Credit Crisis plaguing the planet.

Socialist systems are even more corrupt.

Chris
01-11-2013, 09:35 AM
I agree. More regulation required to ensure honesty and transparency in elections. It is patently unfair for people to vote for " a pig in a poke". Are expense returns examined for single large donations in NZ?

And who will regulate the regulators?

Peter1469
01-11-2013, 10:36 AM
Yes. A current cabinet minister tried to circumvent the rules by persuading a donor to split a $50k donation into two separate donations of $25k each (below the threshold for disclosure under local government rules) when he stood for mayor of Auckland.

He was caught, lied handsomely but lamely to the media, and is hanging on to his current job by his nails. He will never get re-elected.

A perfect example: 100% transparency on elected officials- posted to an official website, and we could solve most of our problems with government today.

And extreme version would be a CSPAN2 reality show on Congress- 24/7.

Dr. Who
01-11-2013, 07:58 PM
I think Peter1469 is on to something. Post the details of the contributions to an official website, then the people would police the election process.

Awryly
01-11-2013, 08:24 PM
I think Peter1469 is on to something. Post the details of the contributions to an official website, then the people would police the election process.

Transparency is part of it. But most constituents don't bother to look up websites to see who has paid how much to which party or candidate.

The crux of it is limits on "donations"/bribes and official monitoring. We don't consider money to be "free speech". It takes a supreme court seduced by money to make such dopey decisions. The US judiciary is an instrument of political interests. Ours is not. That's where we differ.

That's why we are a democracy and the US, in any democratic sense, is merely a banana republic.

zelmo1234
01-11-2013, 08:31 PM
Transparency is part of it. But most constituents don't bother to look up websites to see who has paid how much to which party or candidate.

The crux of it is limits on "donations"/bribes and official monitoring. We don't consider money to be "free speech". It takes a supreme court seduced by money to make such dopey decisions. The US judiciary is an instrument of political interests. Ours is not. That's where we differ.

That's why we are a democracy and the US, in any democratic sense, is merely a banana republic.

Except you are not a Democracy, you are a constitutional monarchy (subject) at least get it right!

Awryly
01-11-2013, 08:50 PM
Except you are not a Democracy, you are a constitutional monarchy (subject) at least get it right!

And you are a fool.

Who seems to revel in being one.

Dr. Who
01-11-2013, 08:59 PM
Which ones?

Awryly
01-11-2013, 09:18 PM
It is very strange that American neocons are incapable of seeing facts and truths as they are.

It is a pathological conditioning by the only thing they believe in: money.

They rabbit on about "family", "liberty" but not "fraternity" or "equality".

From where I watch them (fortunately a great distance), I often wonder why the millions of Americans who do not share their satanic beliefs let them get away with it.

Chris
01-11-2013, 09:27 PM
It is very strange that American neocons are incapable of seeing facts and truths as they are.

It is a pathological conditioning by the only thing they believe in: money.

They rabbit on about "family", "liberty" but not "fraternity" or "equality".

From where I watch them (fortunately a great distance), I often wonder why the millions of Americans who do not share their saturnine beliefs let them get away with it.

It would help if you had a clue what a neocon is, troll.

Chris
01-11-2013, 09:29 PM
I think Peter1469 is on to something. Post the details of the contributions to an official website, then the people would police the election process.

The people would police? How would that work?

Awryly
01-11-2013, 09:47 PM
I see there is much agitation amongst the wildlife.

Is it hooting or howling?

Dr. Who
01-12-2013, 12:36 AM
Again an example of a rude, dismissive remark.

Mister D
01-12-2013, 09:43 AM
Again an example of a rude, dismissive remark.

Like these?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8868-The-Political-Disadvantages-of-Race-Baiting?p=211852&viewfull=1#post211852

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8868-The-Political-Disadvantages-of-Race-Baiting?p=212439&viewfull=1#post212439

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/8868-The-Political-Disadvantages-of-Race-Baiting?p=213137&viewfull=1#post213137

Awryly
01-12-2013, 09:53 AM
Again an example of a rude, dismissive remark.

Then I don't need to review my ban policy.

Chris
01-12-2013, 10:16 AM
Then I don't need to review my ban policy.

Yes, you can go right on along posting in ignorance.

Carygrant
01-12-2013, 12:51 PM
Yes, you can go right on along posting in ignorance.

Like when I sent my condolences upon hearing that WR had passed on .
And you sent me a PM telling me I had never known him .
Never mention , Ignorance , Mister Smurf . You won Gold , Silver and Bronze in that department , all by yourself .

Chris
01-12-2013, 12:53 PM
Like when I sent my condolences upon hearing that WR had passed on .
And you sent me a PM telling me I had never known him .
Never mention , Ignorance , Mister Smurf . You won Gold , Silver and Bronze in that department , all by yourself .

I didn't send you a PM, cary.

Awryly has several of us he disagrees with on ignore thus when he posts about us he is posting in ignorance of what we say.

Dr. Who
01-12-2013, 01:11 PM
Then I don't need to review my ban policy. Hope you didn't think that was directed at you. It was for someone else. I realy must get used to reply with quote. I am more accustomed to a tree format popular on other such sites - then it is obvious who is responding to whom.

Chris
01-12-2013, 01:14 PM
Hope you didn't think that was directed at you. It was for someone else. I realy must get used to reply with quote. I am more accustomed to a tree format popular on other such sites - then it is obvious who is responding to whom.

Awryly, he was attacking me for demonstrating his inability to engage in discussion about his lectures.