If Criticizing Government Is Anti-American...

[Ethereal]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.

[Common]

Criticizing Govt is an american right and everyone accepts that, until it becomes fanatical. One persons criticism of the govt is not the gospel to others. Its their personal belief and they are entitled to it and everyone that disagrees with that criticism is just as much entitled to their belief.

The problems begin when some people take offense to merely being disagreed with and take it as a personal assault

[Ethereal]

Criticizing Govt is an american right and everyone accepts that, until it becomes fanatical.

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?

[Safety]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.

This should be interesting, if those that call others anti-American have enough balls to speak...

[Hoosier8]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.

When Obama weaponized government against his perceived enemies there is no reason to suck governments dick like democrats suddenly started doing in 2016.

BTW, we now have to award those harmed by Obama’s weaponized IRS a multi million settlement of our tax dollars.

[MMC]

Criticizing Govt is an american right and everyone accepts that, until it becomes fanatical. One persons criticism of the govt is not the gospel to others. Its their personal belief and they are entitled to it and everyone that disagrees with that criticism is just as much entitled to their belief.

The problems begin when some people take offense to merely being disagreed with and take it as a personal assault

Meh.....Ethereal is still playing victim over his dumping on the US. He hasn't figured out that part wherein he always takes our adversaries side. Or where he blames the US for all the Worlds woes.

Its funny.....both Demos and Repubs were against the Peeps Iran deal. Both criticized the Peep over it. But what they didn't do.....is take up the Iranians talking points and excuses. They didn't turn around and blame the US for what was taking place in Iran. No where did you see either Demos or Repubs talking about what the US did with the Shah, or blame our CIA. As both figured out a long time ago that the Shah despite being corrupt.....was better than what is ruling there now.


Which that is another thing Ethereal just can't filter down thru the clog.

[MMC]

This should be interesting, if those that call others anti-American have enough balls to speak...

So what you are saying, is you.....a beta male that which is without balls.....wants to see what Real Men's balls look like, huh?

[donttread]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.


If it weren't for government critics we'd still be part of the British Empire. So what people mean when they say criticizing the government is un-America is "except for the ways I criticize it. LOL

[Safety]

So what you are saying, is you.....a beta male that which is without balls.....wants to see what Real Men's balls look like, huh?

No, that’s actually what you just said. You seem to have the character flaw to say what you are thinking about yourself, then attribute it to others.

[MMC]

No, that’s actually what you just said. You seem to have the character flaw to say what you are thinking about yourself, then attribute it to others.


Well I was being nice and not calling you a snivelin lil bitch. I didn't want to bring up your most notable Character trait.

Still, now that I have showed up.....it certainly makes you look dumber than willy lump lump with that stupid shit you said.

[Safety]

Well I was being nice and not calling you a snivelin lil bitch. I didn't want to bring up your most notable Character trait.

Still, now that I have showed up.....it certainly makes you look dumber than willy lump lump with that stupid shit you said.Please, speak more, it helps to have proof of what a functioning idiot sounds like.

[donttread]

Meh.....Ethereal is still playing victim over his dumping on the US. He hasn't figured out that part wherein he always takes our adversaries side. Or where he blames the US for all the Worlds woes.

Its funny.....both Demos and Repubs were against the Peeps Iran deal. Both criticized the Peep over it. But what they didn't do.....is take up the Iranians talking points and excuses. They didn't turn around and blame the US for what was taking place in Iran. No where did you see either Demos or Repubs talking about what the US did with the Shah, or blame our CIA. As both figured out a long time ago that the Shah despite being corrupt.....was better than what is ruling there now.


Which that is another thing Ethereal just can't filter down thru the clog.


Far better to hold government accountable which is our civic duty than to excuse anything it or 1/2 of it does.

[Captdon]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.

Usual nonsense. We attacked Obama's policies. He tried to be king. Where were you during those eight years?

[Captdon]

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?

Anyone who reads your posts. You're the definition of anti-American.

[Captdon]

If it weren't for government critics we'd still be part of the British Empire. So what people mean when they say criticizing the government is un-America is "except for the ways I criticize it. LOL

People who blame our government for all the world's problems are anti-American. They have a hate for this country that cannot be explained.

Our fight with the British was over taxation and freedoms. Theeoeple weren't anti-British until the war stared. They didn't hate them after we became our own nation.

These modern anti-Americans hate their country for doing what is in our national interests. They allow mo errors or admit to any good we have done.

[Captdon]

Far better to hold government accountable which is our civic duty than to excuse anything it or 1/2 of it does.

Holding our government accountable is not the same as unfettered hatred. Saying things that aren't true is not holding the country accountable. Spewing ill will towards you country is anti-American.

It's aright but so is calling that person out. Why one is okay but the other isn't only shows the hyoprocosy of the OP.

[MMC]

Please, speak more, it helps to have proof of what a functioning idiot sounds like.

Oh you mean put you back on display wherein you gave all the proof of what you describe. Started with your very first post in this thread. Some failed concept that you came up with. Which now has been validated. Another fail with your own paintbrush.

Unlike the majority of you leftists.....most on the Right aren't into that ignoring thingy that your kind does. Nor do we avoid any call out. Nor do we hide from posting up. Of course there are a few of us who do like to give the left.....what they give to everybody else. Myself I add onto that statement of you get what you give with......and then some.


You should have already learned this and really it shouldn't be taking this long for you to figure all that out. According to you, your smart.

[MMC]

Far better to hold government accountable which is our civic duty than to excuse anything it or 1/2 of it does.

Holding government accountable is different than dumping on the US with all adversaries. Always looking to blame the US first. Is a clue that many can't miss it.

[MisterVeritis]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.
Most of us are capable of doing things in addition to criticizing the government.

[MisterVeritis]

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?
The people who read your non-stop anti-American screeds do, of course.

[Common]

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?
The law

[Boris The Animal]

Usual nonsense. We attacked Obama's policies. He tried to be king. Where were you during those eight years?
And that my friend, is part and parcel to the American way of life. The BS all started early on in BO's first term when we got the catcalls from the Left who claimed:"If you oppose Obama then you're a racist". Never in my life was I thoroughly offended by remarks like that. My usual retort was: "If he'd been a solid Conservative Republican, then I would be supporting him".

[Ethereal]

This should be interesting, if those that call others anti-American have enough balls to speak...

Oh, they have plenty of balls, just no brains.

[Ethereal]

Meh.....Ethereal is still playing victim over his dumping on the US. He hasn't figured out that part wherein he always takes our adversaries side. Or where he blames the US for all the Worlds woes.

Its funny.....both Demos and Repubs were against the Peeps Iran deal. Both criticized the Peep over it. But what they didn't do.....is take up the Iranians talking points and excuses. They didn't turn around and blame the US for what was taking place in Iran. No where did you see either Demos or Repubs talking about what the US did with the Shah, or blame our CIA. As both figured out a long time ago that the Shah despite being corrupt.....was better than what is ruling there now.


Which that is another thing Ethereal just can't filter down thru the clog.
You and other Republicans spent eight years dumping on the US when Obama was the president.

[Ethereal]

If it weren't for government critics we'd still be part of the British Empire. So what people mean when they say criticizing the government is un-America is "except for the ways I criticize it. LOL
Exactly right.

It's such a blatant double-standard yet they believe they are fooling us, as if we were totally blind.

It's quite pathetic.

[Ethereal]

Usual nonsense. We attacked Obama's policies. He tried to be king. Where were you during those eight years?

Obama was the duly elected President of the United States government and people like you spent eight years savaging him. So according to your own twisted logic, that makes you anti-American.

And are you actually going to pretend like the only thing you did was attack Obama's policies? Really? Who do you think you're fooling anyway?

[Ethereal]

Anyone who reads your posts.

And what makes their opinion the right one?


You're the definition of anti-American.

Then so are you and all the other Republican miscreants around here.

[Ethereal]

People who blame our government for all the world's problems are anti-American. They have a hate for this country that cannot be explained.

Our fight with the British was over taxation and freedoms. Theeoeple weren't anti-British until the war stared. They didn't hate them after we became our own nation.

These modern anti-Americans hate their country for doing what is in our national interests. They allow mo errors or admit to any good we have done.

You blamed the US government under Obama for a myriad of problems, both domestic and international, so that makes you anti-American according to your own logic.

[Ethereal]

Holding our government accountable is not the same as unfettered hatred. Saying things that aren't true is not holding the country accountable. Spewing ill will towards you country is anti-American.

It's aright but so is calling that person out. Why one is okay but the other isn't only shows the hyoprocosy of the OP.
The hypocrisy is all yours though.

Your unfettered hatred for the US government under Obama is proof of that.

[Captdon]

And that my friend, is part and parcel to the American way of life. The BS all started early on in BO's first term when we got the catcalls from the Left who claimed:"If you oppose Obama then you're a racist". Never in my life was I thoroughly offended by remarks like that. My usual retort was: "If he'd been a solid Conservative Republican, then I would be supporting him".

I was offended too. What offended me the most was his bowing. We have never dipped our flag for anyone. That's what I felt he was doing.

[Ethereal]

Holding government accountable is different than dumping on the US with all adversaries. Always looking to blame the US first. Is a clue that many can't miss it.
Except that's exactly what you and other Republicans did when the US government was under Democratic control. You did nothing but attack the US government, blaming every problem imaginable on it. You even had a foreign leader come into the US Congress and badmouth US policy. You and other Republicans are more loyal to Israel than your own country. Just sad.

[Ethereal]

Most of us are capable of doing things in addition to criticizing the government.
So if you do "things" apart from criticizing the government, then it's not anti-American?

You guys need to make a manual that has all your special rules that nobody else knows about so that we can keep track of them.

[Ethereal]

The people who read your non-stop anti-American screeds do, of course.

And who made these "people" the arbiters of what is and is not anti-American? Do these "people" fancy themselves Gods or something?

[Captdon]

Obama was the duly elected President of the United States government and people like you spent eight years savaging him. So according to your own twisted logic, that makes you anti-American.

And are you actually going to pretend like the only thing you did was attack Obama's policies? Really? Who do you think you're fooling anyway?

Svengali, who the hell do you think you are? You didn't know me when Sissypants was President. Obama was not the government. I criticized him not the country like you do.I was anti-Obama; you're anti-America. Different thing all together.

I'm not trying to fool you although it would be no big trick. You set yourself up as the know all, be all. You're just a pathetic loser trying to pretend you're highly educated. you write like a high school sophomore.

Consider who is supporting you in this thread and I rest my case.

[Ethereal]

The law
Which law are you referring to?

[Ethereal]

And that my friend, is part and parcel to the American way of life. The BS all started early on in BO's first term when we got the catcalls from the Left who claimed:"If you oppose Obama then you're a racist". Never in my life was I thoroughly offended by remarks like that. My usual retort was: "If he'd been a solid Conservative Republican, then I would be supporting him".
Republicans do the exact same thing, except instead of calling people racists they call them anti-American or unpatriotic.

[Captdon]

You blamed the US government under Obama for a myriad of problems, both domestic and international, so that makes you anti-American according to your own logic.

I blamed my country of nothing. I think it made a mistake in electing Barry President. That's a fact not some wild charge. You seem unable, or unwilling, to separate Obama from the government. Now, prove I even said a word about Obama other than mu saying so. I'll wait until you find something. Good luck!

[Ethereal]

I was offended too. What offended me the most was his bowing. We have never dipped our flag for anyone. That's what I felt he was doing.

Why were you offended? Your behavior is no different. Except instead of calling people racists you just call them anti-American. You have no argument, no logic, no evidence, so you resort to infantile name-calling. Trump cultists are basically overgrown children stuck in their adolescent stages of development.

[Captdon]

And who made these "people" the arbiters of what is and is not anti-American? Do these "people" fancy themselves Gods or something?

No, just sensible people who pay attention and understand reality.

[Cletus]

Holding our government accountable is not the same as unfettered hatred. Saying things that aren't true is not holding the country accountable. Spewing ill will towards you country is anti-American.

It's aright but so is calling that person out. Why one is okay but the other isn't only shows the hyoprocosy of the OP.

That pretty much says it all.

There is plenty wrong with the government and pointing that out and trying to find ways to correct it is not anti-American. However, blaming the USG for all the world's ills is something very different and can be construed by rational minds as nothing but anti-American.

[Captdon]

Republicans do the exact same thing, except instead of calling people racists they call them anti-American or unpatriotic.

I never heard you called unpatriotic. You are anti-American. That's because your ignorant of facts and are a conspiracy nut.

[Ethereal]

Svengali, who the hell do you think you are? You didn't know me when Sissypants was President. Obama was not the government. I criticized him not the country like you do.I was anti-Obama; you're anti-America. Different thing all together.

I'm not trying to fool you although it would be no big trick. You set yourself up as the know all, be all. You're just a pathetic loser trying to pretend you're highly educated. you write like a high school sophomore.

Consider who is supporting you in this thread and I rest my case.
Obama was not the government? Then what was he?

And why are you pretending like you only attacked Obama's policies? You and other Republicans attacked him personally constantly, just like you attack anyone who doesn't agree with your schizophrenic ideology.

That's the true character of a Trump cultist: Constant insults in lieu of an actual argument.

[Captdon]

Why were you offended? Your behavior is no different. Except instead of calling people racists you just call them anti-American. You have no argument, no logic, no evidence, so you resort to infantile name-calling. Trump cultists are basically overgrown children stuck in their adolescent stages of development.

I bow to no one. You are losing so badly you should consider going back into hiding. You are having your ass handed to you.

[Ethereal]

I blamed my country of nothing.

According to you, there is no difference between the two. An attack on the US government is the same as attacking the country.


I think it made a mistake in electing Barry President. That's a fact not some wild charge.

Your opinion is not a fact. Your inability to understand this is a big reason why you struggle to make reasonable arguments.


You seem unable, or unwilling, to separate Obama from the government.

Because they're not separate.


Now, prove I even said a word about Obama other than mu saying so. I'll wait until you find something. Good luck!

You just called him sissypants like two posts ago.

[Captdon]

Obama was not the government? Then what was he?

And why are you pretending like you only attacked Obama's policies? You and other Republicans attacked him personally constantly, just like you attack anyone who doesn't agree with your schizophrenic ideology.

That's the true character of a Trump cultist: Constant insults in lieu of an actual argument.

You believe Obama was the government? So did he, You voted for him and it's obvious.I asked you to show were i ever attacked Obama for anything but his policies. You can't so admit this is another Etheral fail.

As for insults- you start with your second or third post and then lie about it. I don't pretend I don't snark. i don't pretend to be anything but what I am. For instance: I know more than you do about anything but day to day warfare.I give that to the combat veterans.

I do believe you are one.

[Ethereal]

No, just sensible people who pay attention and understand reality.

Calling yourself sensible doesn't make it so. Saying you pay attention and understand reality doesn't make it so.

[Captdon]

According to you, there is no difference between the two. An attack on the US government is the same as attacking the country.



Your opinion is not a fact. Your inability to understand this is a big reason why you struggle to make reasonable arguments.



Because they're not separate.



You just called him sissypants like two posts ago.

I bolded you latest inaccuracy. i said "other than my posts here."

[Captdon]

Calling yourself sensible doesn't make it so. Saying you pay attention and understand reality doesn't make it so.

No, compare my posts to yours proves it.

Listen sonny, smarter people than you have debated me. I don't always win. You don't have a chance in hell of winning this. I don't even know what you're trying to win. You are anti-American and you have said nothing to change that.

[Agent Zero]

...then doesn't that mean Republicans and conservatives are some of the most anti-American people in the country?

After all, they spent eight years doing nothing but criticizing the government when Obama was the president.

That supposition also confirms the fact that Libertarians are dishonest traitors and should be deported.

[Ethereal]

That pretty much says it all.

There is plenty wrong with the government and pointing that out and trying to find ways to correct it is not anti-American. However, blaming the USG for all the world's ills is something very different and can be construed by rational minds as nothing but anti-American.
Well, we can start with the fact that I've never blamed the US government for "all the world's ills". I blame it for specific things that it is obviously responsible for, like the invasion and occupation of Iraq or the overthrow of Iran's government in the 1950's. I fail to see how stating simple facts about US foreign policy is "anti-American", especially when my critiques of US foreign policy are based on the great harm it does to America. Apparently, wasting trillions of tax dollars, destroying an entire country, and unleashing ISIS on the world is your idea of being pro-American.

Anyway, the standard you've just asserted is completely arbitrary. You've basically said there is some magical amount of criticism that a person is allowed to direct at the US government before it crosses the threshold of "anti-American". You haven't said what that amount is or why it's the correct amount. As usual, you've merely asserted it as a fact without anything to back it up.

[Mister D]

That supposition also confirms the fact that Libertarians are dishonest traitors and should be deported.
You're trying too hard.

[Agent Zero]

You believe Obama was the government? So did he, You voted for him and it's obvious.I asked you to show were i ever attacked Obama for anything but his policies. You can't so admit this is another Etheral fail.

As for insults- you start with your second or third post and then lie about it. I don't pretend I don't snark. i don't pretend to be anything but what I am. For instance: I know more than you do about anything but day to day warfare.I give that to the combat veterans.

I do believe you are one.


The fact is that the President is Commander in Chief. He, or she, is responsible for the whole shebang.

Remember "The buck stops here"?

Unlike Trump, Obama rarely took credit for his many successes; and unlike Trump he took responsibility for the government's failures.

That's being a leader. And a real man.

[Agent Zero]

You're trying too hard.

Pack your bags, traitor.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT5LMF5S4I4iXmf2AU/giphy.gif

[Captdon]

Yea, the vast majority here are wrong and you're right. What a joke.

[Ethereal]

I never heard you called unpatriotic. You are anti-American. That's because your ignorant of facts and are a conspiracy nut.

What's the difference between unpatriotic and anti-American?

And you've spent the past year on this forum alleging that Trump is the victim of a government conspiracy involving the FBI, the CIA, the entire Democratic party, globalists, etc. Clearly, if I'm a "conspiracy nut", then so are you.

[Mister D]

Pack your bags, traitor.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xT5LMF5S4I4iXmf2AU/giphy.gif
I'm not a libertarian. BTW, a supposition can't confirm a fact. lol

[Ethereal]

I bow to no one. You are losing so badly you should consider going back into hiding. You are having your ass handed to you.
You aren't smart enough to know when someone is winning or losing. You don't even know the difference between an opinion and a fact. And your reading comprehension seems to be stuck at a third-grade level.

[Ethereal]

You believe Obama was the government? So did he, You voted for him and it's obvious.I asked you to show were i ever attacked Obama for anything but his policies. You can't so admit this is another Etheral fail.

As for insults- you start with your second or third post and then lie about it. I don't pretend I don't snark. i don't pretend to be anything but what I am. For instance: I know more than you do about anything but day to day warfare.I give that to the combat veterans.

I do believe you are one.
There is a big difference between claiming to understand things and actually demonstrating that you understand things. You're very good at claiming to be knowledgeable, but your ability to demonstrate knowledge is seriously deficient.

And if Obama wasn't the government, then what was he? Please, share your knowledge with me.

And you insulted Obama personally in this very thread when you called him sissypants.

[Ethereal]

I bolded you latest inaccuracy. i said "other than my posts here."
You couldn't even refrain from attacking Obama personally in this thread. Personal attacks are basically all you can do.

[Ethereal]

...smarter people than you have debated me.
Every "debate" you have falls under that definition.

[Agent Zero]

I'm not a libertarian. BTW, a supposition can't confirm a fact. lol

I stand corrected, Comrade.

[Ethereal]

That supposition also confirms the fact that Libertarians are dishonest traitors and should be deported.

You're certainly welcome to try.

[Ethereal]

Yea, the vast majority here are wrong and you're right. What a joke.

You and like five other Trump cultists are not the "vast majority" of the forum.

[Mister D]

I stand corrected, Comrade.
As usual. lol

[MMC]

You and other Republicans spent eight years dumping on the US when Obama was the president.

And without sticking up for an adversary or enemy of the country. And without Blaming the US all the time. Imagine that.

Try it sometime, ya might like it.

[Ethereal]

And without sticking up for an adversary or enemy of the country. And without Blaming the US all the time. Imagine that.

Try it sometime, ya might like it.
You and other Trump cultists don't get to decide who the country's adversaries and enemies are.

[Agent Zero]

I'm not a libertarian. BTW, a supposition can't confirm a fact. lol

Good point. Most Libertarians wouldn't pray before a racist and antisemitic xenophobic moron like the guy in your avatar. It does say a lot about you.

[Hoosier8]

You and other Trump cultists don't get to decide who the country's adversaries and enemies are.

Yeah, the left thinks that’s their territory by claiming America and Americans are their enemies.

[MMC]

Except that's exactly what you and other Republicans did when the US government was under Democratic control. You did nothing but attack the US government, blaming every problem imaginable on it. You even had a foreign leader come into the US Congress and badmouth US policy. You and other Republicans are more loyal to Israel than your own country. Just sad.


Now you are repeating yourself. Which I just gave you the answer in the last post. Nothing changed from then to now.


Whats sad is how you can't figure it out but many others did.


I guess the only real question is how many times you will throw up the victim thread.

[MisterVeritis]

You and other Republicans spent eight years dumping on the US when Obama was the president.
You err.

[MisterVeritis]

Obama was the duly elected President of the United States government and people like you spent eight years savaging him. So according to your own twisted logic, that makes you anti-American.

And are you actually going to pretend like the only thing you did was attack Obama's policies? Really? Who do you think you're fooling anyway?
Most of us opposed Barack Hussein O's policies. We didn't trash the nation and support its enemies.

[Mister D]

Good point. Most Libertarians wouldn't pray before a racist and antisemitic xenophobic moron like the guy in your avatar. It does say a lot about you.
lol You're trying way too hard. Do you put this much effort into cleaning toilets?

[MisterVeritis]

So if you do "things" apart from criticizing the government, then it's not anti-American?

You guys need to make a manual that has all your special rules that nobody else knows about so that we can keep track of them.
When it becomes your life you need to re-assess.

I cannot imagine you will change.

[MMC]

You and other Trump cultists don't get to decide who the country's adversaries and enemies are.

At least we aren't confused about those that yell out death to America. Destroy America. Oh and as for enemies and adversaries, the good thing about having the ones we do. Goes back at least 3 to 4 decades with even the Lame Stream reporting about those enemies and adversaries. So save those "duh", moments for when you need to deflect more.

[MisterVeritis]

The people who read your non-stop anti-American screeds do, of course.

And who made these "people" the arbiters of what is and is not anti-American? Do these "people" fancy themselves Gods or something?
The people themselves, of course. What you are is plainly visible to everyone but you.

[MisterVeritis]

You and other Trump cultists don't get to decide who the country's adversaries and enemies are.
LOL. What you are is plain to everyone. And yes, we do get to decide.

[MisterVeritis]

I stand corrected, Comrade.
In the State Department, I am sure you are addressed similary every day.

[Captdon]

The fact is that the President is Commander in Chief. He, or she, is responsible for the whole shebang.

Remember "The buck stops here"?

Unlike Trump, Obama rarely took credit for his many successes; and unlike Trump he took responsibility for the government's failures.

That's being a leader. And a real man.

1. The President is never the government.

2. Obama said I and me about everything good.

3. He took the blame for nothing.

4. Obama was a pipsqueak.

[Captdon]

What's the difference between unpatriotic and anti-American?

And you've spent the past year on this forum alleging that Trump is the victim of a government conspiracy involving the FBI, the CIA, the entire Democratic party, globalists, etc. Clearly, if I'm a "conspiracy nut", then so are you.

My facts are right there in front of you.

Your "facts" are some fantasy you found in a dark web hole.

[MisterVeritis]

lol You're trying way too hard. Do you put this much effort into cleaning toilets?
We have yet to discover anything he does well.

[Captdon]

Etheral, try to understand this. i won't resort to one syllable words or cartoons.I am smarter than you and I know more than you.

I said I didn't attack Obama as a person except on this forum. I said for you to prove I did. You couldn't even understand that. I insult you as much as you insult me. I say you are anti-American. I have never called you unpatriotic. If you don't think there is a difference so be it.

I place you as a "hidden" liberal. I see their screeching in all your posts.I see you for what you are. You can't leave me be because you try to prove you're right when you're wrong. You don't say anything to the others because you are dense as a hedge and a coward. The others are veterans and call you out so you come after me as if I care. i can do this all night unless I get tb'd.

I have no personal feelings about you at all. I don't know you and don't want to know you. I've read your nonsense since the day I came here. You are like a broken record.

As for your boy, Obama, I lived through Dick Nixon. Fortunately, this time we got Trump instead of Jimmy Carter. I don't believe in "my country right or wrong."

I do believe in "My country right or wrong. When right to keep right. When wrong to set right." I don't know what you believe in except that America is the root of evil for the world. Your responses are illiterate and propaganda for our enemies. You said in one post that I must be uneducated. What does it say when you can't disprove or debate a single thing I say.

I have gone toe to toe with others and neither they nor I lost respect for one another. I don't respect a thing you say because it is too much gibberish and not enough facts. You are an outlier and not in a good way.

[Cletus]

There is a big difference between claiming to understand things and actually demonstrating that you understand things. You're very good at claiming to be knowledgeable, but your ability to demonstrate knowledge is seriously deficient.

I really hope you were looking in a mirror when you said that. Every time you quote Jefferson or the Federalist Papers or try to state something as a fact, I cringe because I know you are going to screw it up almost beyond recognition.


And if Obama wasn't the government, then what was he? Please, share your knowledge with me.

This is a prime example. It is obvious you don't understand the difference between the institution of government and an elected official chosen to perform a function within the parameters established by that government.

No, Obama was NOT "the government".

[Boris The Animal]

Republicans do the exact same thing, except instead of calling people racists they call them anti-American or unpatriotic.
the only one AntiAmerican and unpatriotic is you. If you think for one minutia that I would support Barry Sissypants, then you are sorely mistaken.

[donttread]

People who blame our government for all the world's problems are anti-American. They have a hate for this country that cannot be explained.

Our fight with the British was over taxation and freedoms. Theeoeple weren't anti-British until the war stared. They didn't hate them after we became our own nation.

These modern anti-Americans hate their country for doing what is in our national interests. They allow mo errors or admit to any good we have done.


. People complain about government actions as do you. Largely when those actions are short sighted nd NOT in the interest of the common American. Like constant war, importing oil in huge amounts , bombing villages in Pakistan , not dealing with illegal immigration which has been the case for a quarter century .

[donttread]

Holding our government accountable is not the same as unfettered hatred. Saying things that aren't true is not holding the country accountable. Spewing ill will towards you country is anti-American.



It's aright but so is calling that person out. Why one is okay but the other isn't only shows the hyoprocosy of the OP.

Were you anti-American when you hated government actions under Obama? What is anti-American is blindly supporting unconstitutional actions and other government actions that benefit only a few.

[Cletus]

You and other Trump cultists don't get to decide who the country's adversaries and enemies are.
Do you?

[Ethereal]

Yeah, the left thinks that’s their territory by claiming America and Americans are their enemies.
I tell the "left" the same things that I tell Trump cultists.

Whenever they go around claiming that Russia is "our" enemy, I tell them to speak for themselves. I am under no obligation to treat another country as my enemy simply because some political faction within America desires it.

So if Democrats want Russia as an enemy, or if Republicans want Iran as an enemy, then they must make a formal declaration of war. Otherwise it's just their personal opinion.

[Ethereal]

Do you?
Of course not.

[Ethereal]

Now you are repeating yourself. Which I just gave you the answer in the last post. Nothing changed from then to now.


Whats sad is how you can't figure it out but many others did.


I guess the only real question is how many times you will throw up the victim thread.

Your answer is based on nothing but imaginary standards invented out of thin air. Simply put, you want to have your cake and eat it too.

[Ethereal]

You err.
So the duly elected President of the US is not the chief executive of the US government? The duly elected representatives and senators of the US Congress are not the legislative arm of the US government? You learn something new every day.

[Ethereal]

Most of us opposed Barack Hussein O's policies. We didn't trash the nation and support its enemies.

Obama was the President of the United States of America, duly elected by the American people. His policies were the US government's policies, enacted on behalf of the United States of America. And of course you did far more than just attack his policies. Savage personal attacks were and still are a common occurrence among your ilk. I believe it is pathological to some extent. You simply cannot help insulting other people. It makes you feel powerful.

[Ethereal]

When it becomes your life you need to re-assess.

I cannot imagine you will change.

Except it was your life when Obama was the President. But now that Trump is the President, the rules have magically changed and its no longer okay to direct harsh criticisms at the US government. Fancy that.

[Ethereal]

At least we aren't confused about those that yell out death to America. Destroy America. Oh and as for enemies and adversaries, the good thing about having the ones we do. Goes back at least 3 to 4 decades with even the Lame Stream reporting about those enemies and adversaries. So save those "duh", moments for when you need to deflect more.
You are confused. You think those people just woke up one day and randomly decided to start hating America. In reality, they hate America because the US government overthrew their prime minister in the 1950's, installed a puppet regime in his place, and helped him brutally repress the population for decades. For some bizarre reason, you and other Trump cultists have decided to characterize those simple statements of truth as "anti-American", despite the fact that I'm not blaming America for anything.

[Ethereal]

The people who read your non-stop anti-American screeds do, of course.

The people themselves, of course. What you are is plainly visible to everyone but you.

When did you and like four other Trump cultists at at tPF become "the people"?

[Ethereal]

LOL. What you are is plain to everyone.

You speak for everyone? Since when?


And yes, we do get to decide.

No, you don't. Only the congress has the authority under the constitution to make an enemy of another country. A "constitutional conservative" ought to know that. But we both know your pretenses of constitutional conservatism are not really genuine. You're of the Wilsonian and Rooseveltian schools of foreign policy - interventionist, imperialist, big government, the exact opposite of what the founders practiced and preached.

[Ethereal]

I really hope you were looking in a mirror when you said that. Every time you quote Jefferson or the Federalist Papers or try to state something as a fact, I cringe because I know you are going to screw it up almost beyond recognition.

You've never come close to demonstrating my error on anything related to the founders.

And what is there to screw up? Their views on foreign policy were clear and unequivocal: No foreign entanglements, armed neutrality, and frugal government. Not only do you and other so-called "conservatives" reject those views, but you perversely characterize them as anti-American.


This is a prime example. It is obvious you don't understand the difference between the institution of government and an elected official chosen to perform a function within the parameters established by that government.

No, Obama was NOT "the government".

If government officials are not the government, then who is?

[Ethereal]

the only one AntiAmerican and unpatriotic is you. If you think for one minutia that I would support Barry Sissypants, then you are sorely mistaken.
See, you just proved my point.

[William]

Criticizing Govt is an american right and everyone accepts that, until it becomes fanatical. One persons criticism of the govt is not the gospel to others. Its their personal belief and they are entitled to it and everyone that disagrees with that criticism is just as much entitled to their belief.

The problems begin when some people take offense to merely being disagreed with and take it as a personal assault

I agree with you in all that, but who decides when criticism becomes fanatical? Isn't that step just someone's opinion?

Ethereal and I have not always agreed in the past - but I think he is making a valid point. We should all criticise, and be allowed to criticise, what our governments do in our name - doesn't matter what political party is in power. And to call someone 'anti-American' is a meaningless thing. It is just a nationalistic phrase, used instead of 'traitor'. If you was to call me anti-Australian or anti-British - what would that mean? Would it mean I hate everything British or Australian, or that I want harm to come to all Brits or all Australians - what?

I can't comment on the US, but for example, I think the Australian government is doing the wrong thing by keeping undocumented immigrants on off-shore islands. I think the Australian government is doing the wrong thing by giving tax cuts to big business and millionaires, while cutting back on funding to health care and the national broadcaster. Do either of those views make me anti-Australian. Of course not - it just means our government (like every other) makes mistakes.

I have the right, just like any other citizen of any other country, to criticise the government, and people have the right to disagree with me, but they don't have the right to criticise me, or call me names, for not agreeing with them. It is healthy in any democracy for there to be criticism of the government, and Ethereal is being patriotic in that sense, in his criticisms of the current administration. That anyone disagrees with what he says is OK, but that anyone calls him names for saying it is not.

[Lummy]

That should do it. I think I can sleep now. Thanks.

[MMC]

You are confused. You think those people just woke up one day and randomly decided to start hating America. In reality, they hate America because the US government overthrew their prime minister in the 1950's, installed a puppet regime in his place, and helped him brutally repress the population for decades. For some bizarre reason, you and other Trump cultists have decided to characterize those simple statements of truth as "anti-American", despite the fact that I'm not blaming America for anything.


No its not me that is confused. First you were about defending yourself from the perspective of you being anti American. Now you want to make excuses for the Iranians. Oh and those young people that are out screaming death to America, destroy America doesn't have anything to do with the Shah. Most are told to go protest against the US. So that is what they do.


Which says nothing of Iran's revolutionary guard. Nor the Iranian leaders, and that's just with this adversary.

[MisterVeritis]

You wrote: "You and other Republicans spent eight years dumping on the US when Obama was the president."

I responded: "You err."


So the duly elected President of the US is not the chief executive of the US government? The duly elected representatives and senators of the US Congress are not the legislative arm of the US government? You learn something new every day.

Your response to the thread fails.

[MisterVeritis]

Most of us opposed Barack Hussein O's policies. We didn't trash the nation and support its enemies.

Obama was the President of the United States of America, duly elected by the American people.
Granted.


His policies were the US government's policies, enacted on behalf of the United States of America.
Granted.


And of course you did far more than just attack his policies. Savage personal attacks were and still are a common occurrence among your ilk. I believe it is pathological to some extent. You simply cannot help insulting other people. It makes you feel powerful.
Granted. At least partially.

We still did not trash the nation nor did we routinely side with this nation's enemies. But you do.

[MMC]

Your answer is based on nothing but imaginary standards invented out of thin air. Simply put, you want to have your cake and eat it too.

The answer was in response to you. That is known as reality. But if you want to consider yourself something that's imaginary. I wont fault you for it.

[MisterVeritis]

When did you and like four other Trump cultists at at tPF become "the people"?
You asked who gets to decide. I responded the people who read your screeds, of course. I am one of the people who reads your screeds. Wasn't that clear?

[MisterVeritis]

And yes, we do get to decide.


No, you don't. Only the congress has the authority under the constitution to make an enemy of another country. A "constitutional conservative" ought to know that. But we both know your pretenses of constitutional conservatism are not really genuine. You're of the Wilsonian and Rooseveltian schools of foreign policy - interventionist, imperialist, big government, the exact opposite of what the founders practiced and preached.
The people decide long before our representatives do.

I will stand with the Constitutional imperative for the common defense.

[MisterVeritis]

You've never come close to demonstrating my error on anything related to the founders.

And what is there to screw up? Their views on foreign policy were clear and unequivocal: No foreign entanglements, armed neutrality, and frugal government. Not only do you and other so-called "conservatives" reject those views, but you perversely characterize them as anti-American.
If government officials are not the government, then who is?
You have a shallow view. It happens. The Constitution does not demand no foreign treaties. If it did we would not have advice and consent provisions. Nor does it demand armed neutrality or frugal government. It did demand limited government. That is not the same thing.

[MisterVeritis]

Except it was your life when Obama was the President. But now that Trump is the President, the rules have magically changed and its no longer okay to direct harsh criticisms at the US government. Fancy that.
I opposed Barack Hussein O's policies, the ones he revealed as well as the ones he tried to conceal. My harsh criticisms were aimed at the Democrats who were running roughshod over us.

Fancy that.

[Common]

Discuss the topic Not each Other

[The Xl]

Anti American is a generally meaningless term used by those trying to stifle any sort of dissent or criticism. You see it used by both sides of the corporate establishment aisle and their constituents, most notably, the right uses it when anyone criticizes their inane, evil, illegal wars and the left has recently employed it the Neo Cold War and McCarthyism Part Deux post Trump election.

[donttread]

And yes, we do get to decide.

The people decide long before our representatives do.

I will stand with the Constitutional imperative for the common defense.


"Defense" not "Offense". I'm betting the fore fathers wrote it that way for a reason.

[Mister D]

"Defense" not "Offense". I'm betting the fore fathers wrote it that way for a reason.

The "fore fathers" engaged in numerous wars of conquest.

[Captdon]

Were you anti-American when you hated government actions under Obama? What is anti-American is blindly supporting unconstitutional actions and other government actions that benefit only a few.

I supported a lot of the policies. If you only attack and attack and attack then , yes, you're anti-American. When you never find anything good, you're anti-American. When you lie about what we've done, you're anti-American.


There's room for one more if you want to join him.

[Captdon]

This is a prime example. It is obvious you don't understand the difference between the institution of government and an elected official chosen to perform a function within the parameters established by that government.-Cletus

No, Obama was NOT "the government".



You've never come close to demonstrating my error on anything related to the founders.

And what is there to screw up? Their views on foreign policy were clear and unequivocal: No foreign entanglements, armed neutrality, and frugal government. Not only do you and other so-called "conservatives" reject those views, but you perversely characterize them as anti-American.



If government officials are not the government, then who is?

He said Obama wasn't the government, I've said it. Others have said it. Where the hell did you learn to read? It failed.

[Captdon]

You are confused. You think those people just woke up one day and randomly decided to start hating America. In reality, they hate America because the US government overthrew their prime minister in the 1950's, installed a puppet regime in his place, and helped him brutally repress the population for decades. For some bizarre reason, you and other Trump cultists have decided to characterize those simple statements of truth as "anti-American", despite the fact that I'm not blaming America for anything.

You're blaming America for the 1954 overthrow. You have harped on that consistently. I have posted elsewhere a history lesson for you.

[Captdon]

I have the right, just like any other citizen of any other country, to criticise the government, and people have the right to disagree with me, but they don't have the right to criticise me, or call me names, for not agreeing with them. It is healthy in any democracy for there to be criticism of the government, and Ethereal is being patriotic in that sense, in his criticisms of the current administration. That anyone disagrees with what he says is OK, but that anyone calls him names for saying it is not.

Do you always bad mouth your country? I mean always? If so, you're no better than he is.

[MisterVeritis]

"Defense" not "Offense". I'm betting the fore fathers wrote it that way for a reason.
It is a term of art. I don't expect you to be familiar with it.

[Captdon]

No its not me that is confused. First you were about defending yourself from the perspective of you being anti American. Now you want to make excuses for the Iranians. Oh and those young people that are out screaming death to America, destroy America doesn't have anything to do with the Shah. Most are told to go protest against the US. So that is what they do.


Which says nothing of Iran's revolutionary guard. Nor the Iranian leaders, and that's just with this adversary.

The Shaw has been gone for 39 years. These street people don't have any memory of him. In fact, Etheral doesn't either if he's the age I think.

[Captdon]

Anti American is a generally meaningless term used by those trying to stifle any sort of dissent or criticism. You see it used by both sides of the corporate establishment aisle and their constituents, most notably, the right uses it when anyone criticizes their inane, evil, illegal wars and the left has recently employed it the Neo Cold War and McCarthyism Part Deux post Trump election.

It must mean a lot if you have read the thread and other threads. It means a lot to me, for sure.

[William]

Do you always bad mouth your country? I mean always? If so, you're no better than he is.

I guess the answer to that depends on what you mean by 'bad mouth'. The Cambridge dictionaries define 'bad mouth' as to criticize someone or something in a very unpleasant manner. So I'm just wondering why you would ask me that? Am I constantly 'bad mouthing' Australia or the UK on these pages - if so; please quote the posts.

Do I criticise certain things about Australia and the UK - yes, for sure (I'm not a fan of nationalism). Do I do it in an unpleasant manner - I don't think so - so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I will repeat that we are all entitled to criticise our countries and their governments - that is partly what democracy is about. Sometimes that criticism is well deserved, and sometimes it is just party political, or that we don't understand stuff.

I respect someone who is capable of seeing through all the flag waving and nationalistic BS, and criticises what he sees as wrong in his own society. That doesn't make him a traitor, or someone who wants harm to come to his country.

Like if my dad did something obviously wrong and illegal, I would criticise him - but it wouldn't make me hate him or wish him harm. The same with my country.

[Captdon]

I guess the answer to that depends on what you mean by 'bad mouth'. The Cambridge dictionaries define 'bad mouth' as to criticize someone or something in a very unpleasant manner. So I'm just wondering why you would ask me that? Am I constantly 'bad mouthing' Australia or the UK on these pages - if so; please quote the posts.

Do I criticise certain things about Australia and the UK - yes, for sure (I'm not a fan of nationalism). Do I do it in an unpleasant manner - I don't think so - so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

I will repeat that we are all entitled to criticise our countries and their governments - that is partly what democracy is about. Sometimes that criticism is well deserved, and sometimes it is just party political, or that we don't understand stuff.

I respect someone who is capable of seeing through all the flag waving and nationalistic BS, and criticises what he sees as wrong in his own society. That doesn't make him a traitor, or someone who wants harm to come to his country.

Like if my dad did something obviously wrong and illegal, I would criticise him - but it wouldn't make me hate him or wish him harm. The same with my country.

Read what I posted. I asked a question. No, bad-mouthing means more that you think. No, everyone here has the right to criticize the country. When that's all you do then you're anti-American.

I never said he was a traitor or wanted harm to come to the US. Adding to what I say is intellectual dishonesty. That would be you. Learn from that.

[donttread]

The "fore fathers" engaged in numerous wars of conquest.


So? It says "defence"

[donttread]

It is a term of art. I don't expect you to be familiar with it.

Or it could have been clear and direct like the rest of the Constitution . Like "shall not be infringed" . BTW, there is no "art" to the neocon wars you support . Neither would a true fiscal conservative ever support such actions.

[The Xl]

It must mean a lot if you have read the thread and other threads. It means a lot to me, for sure.
That's right, I read through this thread, as I do many other threads. I'm sure your reply means.....something.

[MisterVeritis]

Or it could have been clear and direct like the rest of the Constitution . Like "shall not be infringed" . BTW, there is no "art" to the neocon wars you support . Neither would a true fiscal conservative ever support such actions.
Defense is a term of art. Did I mention I do not expect you to understand it?

It is not that hard for those capable of seeing.

[Mister D]

So? It says "defence"

So the "fore fathers" weren't oriented to the "defense" quite as much as you let on.

[Ethereal]

The "fore fathers" engaged in numerous wars of conquest.
Yeah, they expanded westward into America, at their own cost and own risk, in order to acquire rich lands for themselves and their people. Whereas modern wars are fought in faraway lands, on the taxpayer dime, based on completely nebulous and often times deceitful rationales. Seems to me there is a world of difference between the two.

[Ethereal]

So the "fore fathers" weren't oriented to the "defense" quite as much as you let on.
They were when it came to the proper role of the US government.

[Captdon]

That's right, I read through this thread, as I do many other threads. I'm sure your reply means.....something.

Jeez, it means I care. How hard is that?

[Captdon]

Yeah, they expanded westward into America, at their own cost and own risk, in order to acquire rich lands for themselves and their people. Whereas modern wars are fought in faraway lands, on the taxpayer dime, based on completely nebulous and often times deceitful rationales. Seems to me there is a world of difference between the two.

They invaded land we didn't own and stole it from a foreign part of the world. They sent the Army in to help out. That's federal troops being paid. The built forts. They fought people who didn't want us there.We signed treaties we never kept. Deceitful policy.

Now, explain the difference?

[Mister D]

They were when it came to the proper role of the US government.
Apparently, part of that role was the conquest of Indian land.

[nathanbforrest45]

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?

I do

When that criticism increases to threats to remove the president or to attack members of the government then that becomes anti american.

No one other than you has ever said criticism of the government was anti american.

[Mister D]

Yeah, they expanded westward into America, at their own cost and own risk, in order to acquire rich lands for themselves and their people. Whereas modern wars are fought in faraway lands, on the taxpayer dime, based on completely nebulous and often times deceitful rationales. Seems to me there is a world of difference between the two.
The Indian wars weren't exactly based on anything you would admire. So if they shared the spoils a little more evenly would this world of difference shrink?

[Admiral Ackbar]

And who gets to decide when it becomes "fanatical"?

I will let you know....

[Mister D]

Mind you, I'm not attacking the "fore fathers". I think our westward expansion was a triumph.

[Ethereal]

Apparently, part of that role was the conquest of Indian land.
And you see no fundamental distinction between that and, say, the wars in Vietnam or Iraq?

[Ethereal]

The Indian wars weren't exactly based on anything you would admire. So if they shared the spoils a little more evenly would this world of difference shrink?

European colonization of America predates the founding of the US government by centuries. Westward expansion by whites was inexorable and would have happened with or without the US government's involvement. The US government under the leadership of the founders merely rode the waves of history as pragmatically as they could. That is completely different than how the US government presently operates. Instead of letting situations develop organically and then reacting, the modern political establishment is attempting to engineer a Utopian "new world order" from the top-down.

And it's not so much about sharing the spoils evenly, but who is forced to assume the costs of the venture. As you can see from the following graph, the US government under the founders spent comparatively little on the military.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/include/usgs_chart2p33.png

In other words, they weren't creating deceitful pretexts for war and then plundering the American taxpayer in order to pay for those wars. In my opinion, that does make a world of difference.

[Hal Jordan]

Meh.....Ethereal is still playing victim over his dumping on the US. He hasn't figured out that part wherein he always takes our adversaries side. Or where he blames the US for all the Worlds woes.

Its funny.....both Demos and Repubs were against the Peeps Iran deal. Both criticized the Peep over it. But what they didn't do.....is take up the Iranians talking points and excuses. They didn't turn around and blame the US for what was taking place in Iran. No where did you see either Demos or Repubs talking about what the US did with the Shah, or blame our CIA. As both figured out a long time ago that the Shah despite being corrupt.....was better than what is ruling there now.


Which that is another thing Ethereal just can't filter down thru the clog.

He goes after the government, not the US. Huge difference. You saw a difference when Democrats were in power, but, now that Republicans are, it's a holy institution that is all that America is. That's just ridiculous. America never has, and never will be, the government. "We, the people...", not "We, the government..."

[Mister D]

European colonization of America predates the founding of the US government by centuries. Westward expansion by whites was inexorable and would have happened with or without the US government's involvement. The US government under the leadership of the founders merely rode the waves of history as pragmatically as they could. That is completely different than how the US government presently operates. Instead of letting situations develop organically and then reacting, the modern political establishment is attempting to engineer a Utopian "new world order" from the top-down.

And it's not so much about sharing the spoils evenly, but who is forced to assume the costs of the venture. As you can see from the following graph, the US government under the founders spent comparatively little on the military.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/include/usgs_chart2p33.png

In other words, they weren't plundering the American taxpayer in order to massively subsidize the gains of private parties.
Inexorable or not it happened with the US Government's active and enthusiastic participation. My point is that the US assumed a defensive or neutral posture only with regard to Europe not toward her indigenous and Latin American neighbors. The US has been fighting colonial wars and wars of conquest since her founding.

Oddly enough, the economic and geopolitical dominance of the US coincides with her increased defense spending. Our material affluence also rose precipitously at the same time. Coincidence?

[Mister D]

And you see no fundamental distinction between that and, say, the wars in Vietnam or Iraq?
A fundamental distinction? Not at all. As our means to project power increased so did our appetites.

[Ethereal]

Inexorable or not it happened with the US Government's active and enthusiastic participation. My point is that the US assumed a defensive or neutral posture only with regard to Europe not toward her indigenous and Latin American neighbors. The US has been fighting colonial wars and wars of conquest since her founding.

Yes, the US participated in something on its own borders that was historic and largely inevitable. In my opinion, that is much, much different than some deceitful scheme to create a "new world order" where every country on the globe is brought under the dominion of international capitalists.


Oddly enough, the economic and geopolitical dominance of the US coincides with her increased defense spending. Coincidence?

Yes, I would say it's largely a coincidence. US hegemony, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, was the result of Eurasian self-destruction more than anything else. And as Eurasia emerged from the ashes of their self-destructive, internecine warfare, US hegemony began to wane, and continues to wane to this day. The reemergence of a "multipolar" order is already upon us. And what is the US left with? An increasingly debt-ridden, hollowed out, war-obsessed economy. A great example of short-term thinking triumphing over long-term planning.

[Ethereal]

A fundamental distinction? Not at all. As our means to project power increased so did our appetites.

Projecting power to what end though? And if an appetite increases, then shouldn't the size of the meal?

[Mister D]

Projecting power to what end though? And if an appetite increases, then shouldn't the size of the meal?
I dare say our ends in Vietnam and Iraq weren't as nakedly aggressive as our ends in...well all of our earlier colonial wars.

I'll say. The US is the linchpin of the current global order.

[Ethereal]

Let's consider the following.

Thomas Jefferson acquired the Louisiana territory for about $500 billion in today's dollars.

By comparison, the US has spent about $2.5 trillion in today's dollars on the war in Iraq.

Pretty much speaks for itself.

[Ethereal]

I dare say our ends in Vietnam and Iraq weren't as nakedly aggressive as our ends in...well all of our earlier colonial wars.

Right, like I said, the colonial wars were fought openly and honestly for the most part. They weren't based on deceitful pretexts, and they weren't financed by plundering the American taxpayer. That latter distinction is majorly important from my perspective. Who pays for what is an essential political question.


I'll say. The US is the linchpin of the current global order.

And the current global order is undergoing a slow-motion collapse because of how preposterous it is.

[Mister D]

Yes, the US participated in something on its own borders that was historic and largely inevitable. In my opinion, that is much, much different than some deceitful scheme to create a "new world order" where every country on the globe is brought under the dominion of international capitalists.



Yes, I would say it's largely a coincidence. US hegemony, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, was the result of Eurasian self-destruction more than anything else. And as Eurasia emerged from the ashes of their self-destructive, internecine warfare, US hegemony began to wane, and continues to wane to this day. The reemergence of a "multipolar" order is already upon us. And what is the US left with? An increasingly debt-ridden, hollowed out, war-obsessed economy. A great example of short-term thinking triumphing over long-term planning.
Historic and inevitable? I'm sorry but this is just an apology for US aggression toward her weaker neighbors. If I said that in any other context you would (rightfully) object.

I wouldn't. That's a little too much of a coincidence. In any case, Eurasian self-destruction is precisely what both allowed and prompted the US to prop up a world system the Western European powers could no longer sustain.

As you know, debt is out of control all over the developed world. It's hardly a problem unique to the US.

[Mister D]

Right, like I said, the colonial wars were fought openly and honestly for the most part. They weren't based on deceitful pretexts, and they weren't financed by plundering the American taxpayer. That latter distinction is majorly important from my perspective. Who pays for what is an essential political question.



And the current global order is undergoing a slow-motion collapse because of how preposterous it is.
But does that entail a "fundamental distinction"?

Maybe so.

[Mister D]

Incidentally, this plundering somehow coincides with unprecedented material prosperity.

[Ethereal]

Historic and inevitable? I'm sorry but this is just an apology for US aggression toward her weaker neighbors. If I said that in any other context you would (rightfully) object.

But the process of colonialism and expansionism predates the existence of the US by centuries. Many of the colonists and settlers were acting of their own volition, without any inducement or permission from existing governments. In that way, it can be accurately described as something spontaneous and inevitable, like a force of nature.


I wouldn't. That's a little too much of a coincidence. In any case, Eurasian self-destruction is precisely what both allowed and prompted the US to prop up a world system the Western European powers could no longer sustain.

But US hegemony only emerged after Europe and Asia were a smoldering ruin. And that hegemony has been waning noticeably as Europe and Asia emerge from economic hibernation. That, too, seems too much of a coincidence.


As you know, debt is out of control all over the developed world. It's hardly a problem unique to the US.

As you already noted, the developed world is largely a product of US hegemony. The increasing reliance on debt and financialization, therefore, can be attributed in large part to the pernicious influence of the US on the global economy.

[Ethereal]

Incidentally, this plundering somehow coincides with unprecedented material prosperity.

It also coincided with all our major economic competitors being turned into a smoldering pile of rubble. And the days of unchallenged US hegemony are clearly coming to an end.